Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Bert Beach
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000096
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00:21 Welcome to The Liberty Insider.
00:23 This is the program that brings you up-to-date 00:25 news, views, information and discussion on 00:28 religious liberty issues. My name is Lincoln Steed 00:31 editor of liberty magazine and my guest on the 00:34 program is Dr. Butt Beach. Welcome Butt, 00:38 you've got a long strong and experience 00:42 background on religious liberty for many years. 00:44 You led the religious liberty department 00:46 at our world headquarters of the 00:47 Seventh Adventist Church in Washington DC. 00:50 So, you know, you know back to front, inside out, 00:54 and up and down on this topic and I'm sure likely 00:58 you realize the religious liberty is inextricably 01:01 linked in the Seventh Day Adventist 01:03 mind and rationale with prophetic developments 01:07 and signs of religious stress at the end of time 01:12 and central to that is really the expectation 01:15 of some sort of Sunday Law a requirement 01:17 that everybody worships along the same day. 01:20 Now I want to ask you that do you see 01:24 early warning signs that perhaps that 01:26 sort of thing is happening now? 01:29 While we've got, we've seen many early warning 01:31 signs in the past especially in the late 19th century, 01:37 where it was a central discussion in American 01:41 religious life, the question of having Sunday 01:45 kind of supported by legal legislation. 01:48 That's really what gave rise to liberty magazine. 01:51 Exactly and liberty magazine took a strong stand 01:53 against that trend and so forth and since then 01:57 of course there has been a tendency basically 02:00 I think over the year in United States 02:03 and many other countries of having actually less 02:06 on the loss because of commercial interest, 02:09 it's not so much sometimes we don't like to take 02:11 credit for it to saying well we have into this 02:13 and others they don't that have observe another day 02:16 should have the rights to be protected 02:18 in that observance and therefore we've been 02:21 successful in stopping legislation supporting 02:25 establishing Sunday as a kind of a day worship 02:30 for the whole nation. 02:32 But the commercial interests are very strong. 02:34 While secularization, I think 02:35 Yeah, let me tell you. increase in secularization. 02:37 So I tell people sometimes that in certain 02:41 instances the pendulum of Religious 02:45 Liberty of Sunday law legislation has in 02:48 some places been swinging away from Sunday 02:51 laws, but of course the image of the pendulum 02:54 is one that the in pendulum swing this way. 02:57 It's got from one way and comes back. 02:58 Eventually the pendulums swings back and 03:00 sometimes we see some swinging back you have 03:04 several examples of that in different parts of the 03:07 world, but in Unites States so far I would say 03:11 the pendulum as far as practical implication 03:16 is swinging away from Sunday laws mostly 03:19 because of commercial interests people want 03:22 to be able to do what they want to do on Sunday, 03:23 they want to have their football games, 03:25 they want to go and go to the super big stores, 03:29 the malls and they want to be free to do that 03:32 and they make more money that way 03:34 and so for example when I moved to 03:36 Montgomery county, where I think he 03:39 This is in Maryland. 03:40 Where the General Conference Headquarter 03:41 is located back in 1980. In Montgomery County, 03:46 there was a Sunday law that did not allow the 03:48 malls to be opened on Sunday 03:51 today they are all open. 03:52 This was the blue law respect out at Sunday. 03:53 When I used to live in England years ago 03:57 everything was closed practically on Sunday. 03:59 A few little store maybe a bakery 04:01 and a few other for special permits were opened, 04:04 every things were closed. 04:05 Today, in England the malls and the some other 04:08 big stores are open not all day so far 04:12 it's you know about five or six hours during Sunday 04:15 they are open. So that way, 04:17 but on the other hand in this Germany just recently 04:22 there has been an effort to strengthen Sunday laws. 04:25 Yeah this is in Secular Europe right. 04:28 In secular Europe. 04:29 That's the great already there. 04:30 Interesting because of course they look at it as 04:32 Sunday laws being something to protect 04:36 the working man from being exploited 04:38 and having day off that doesn't mean that 04:41 working man will be going to church necessarily 04:43 probably they didn't want, but he will be free 04:46 to do what he wants, he maybe go out in nature 04:49 and play golf or whatever it might be so on. 04:52 Now Germany is not the only Country there has 04:54 been several lately in Europe with it 04:56 Or in Germany for example Germany past some 05:00 years ago a laws as I recall is allowing stores 05:05 to be opened 10 Sundays a year. 05:09 So the rest of the Sundays, which mean 42 05:12 or whatever it is the store had to be close 05:15 on Sunday and they had 10 and now there has 05:18 been an effort in Germany recently to say well 05:20 that's too much 10 days. So now as I understand 05:23 it in German legislation just recently at the end 05:26 of 2009 they have decided they only 05:31 allow 5 Sundays a year to be open. 05:35 On the other hand Germany does allow restaurants 05:38 as I understand it to choose their own day 05:41 to be closed they have to be closed one day 05:44 during the week, but they can be closed 05:46 on a Monday or Tuesday or Sunday or Saturday. 05:48 That's not particularly religious requirement. 05:53 Yeah it's say mostly of them say not really 05:54 religion even though you have to say that the 05:57 strong churches the big churches 05:59 are in Germany will be Luther. 06:02 Lutheran church and the or Evangelical Church 06:04 as it's called sometimes and the 06:06 Roman Catholic Church have also been 06:08 pushing for more protection 06:10 Well this is what I wanted, on Suday, to through in 06:12 on this you are explaining social changes 06:14 in a secularization that is the push back 06:18 comes on Sunday requirements. 06:21 It cannot be material that run for example recently 06:25 and restating it Sunday doctrine sit there, there 06:29 should be some legal requirements 06:31 or encouraging members to push for legal 06:34 protection of Sunday, which is fine to a point, 06:37 but you think that there is a political push from 06:42 Rome and perhaps other churches for something 06:45 that the secular society sees it's own logic toward, 06:50 but here there is a religious agenda. 06:51 Now let's say there is it's true that beneath the 06:56 secular agenda, which is the, which is on top 07:00 what the legislatures, the parliaments. Sure. 07:04 Are discussing and the governments beneath there 07:07 is a religious effort on the part of some religions, 07:12 some churches who see few of their members in 07:15 church on a given Sunday thinking that 07:18 well if we had some kind of a legislation that 07:22 would require people not to be working on the 07:27 Sunday, we would have more people in our Churches 07:29 I personally think that, that will not be 07:32 too successful because people are if those even 07:36 those they favor in the legislatures and in the 07:39 parliaments the Sunday laws are not favoring it, 07:42 so that people can go to church, but so they can be 07:44 free from work on that day and I would expect 07:49 most of them to be if secular society stays the 07:52 same to be simply going out and going to the 07:56 soccer game or going on the picnic or going on a 07:59 trip by the lake or in the mountains or whatever 08:02 it might be or just staying at home sleeping, 08:04 but they will not I think necessarily go to church 08:08 because of that, but by the way you mentioned, 08:11 I don't want to take too much time here, 08:12 but I think it's an important issue you've 08:14 mentioned that the pope and his pastoral letters 08:18 D. S. Dominic, which you talks about 08:21 That was 1996 is our 08:23 In which he advocated the concept that Sunday 08:30 or rest on Sunday it should be protected for the 08:35 working man. So the working man should have 08:37 the right not to work on Sunday by and that could be 08:41 Well he was quite specific he says that believe 08:44 is everywhere should work for legislation to 08:47 protect the Sunday. Now what the language you 08:50 are using there, which was employed in 08:52 D. S. Dominic is quite obvious in the 08:57 what's the document free days, no, no, the recent 09:01 document on faith and charity Caritas and 09:07 Yeah, I got it now that was John 09:10 that's a front was the first. This is Benedict 09:11 I think the first in seculorum or you might 09:14 call it a pastoral letter that Pope Benedict 09:17 put out. Yes not too within the last 12 months 09:20 Yeah And it's a comprehensive 09:22 application of a very good biblical principle, 09:25 let me, that throughout every aspect of the 09:27 society the principle of love, 09:28 charity and religious principles should be 09:31 inculcated into business operations into social 09:35 structures and so on. Now he gave that 09:37 language them. Now, let me mention 09:40 you one thing because I think it's an important 09:41 aspect and many lot of people don't know 09:43 about this. When I read the Pope's letter, 09:48 D. S. Dominic in which he advocated maybe 09:51 somebody should been protected by legally 09:54 Legally protected. Arrangements, 09:56 I wrote a letter to the Vatican about that issue 10:00 and said I can understand I agree that a person 10:05 should be free not to work on this day 10:08 of rest Sunday for which is the day for the 10:10 most majority then I raise the question with the 10:13 Vatican how about the rights of people that are 10:16 observing other day be it Saturday, be it, be it 10:20 maybe Friday for muslims even though for 10:23 muslims Friday is not very that much of a day 10:26 of not working it's really a day of going to the 10:28 mosque simply, but then maybe after that they can 10:31 do what they please go back to work or whatever. 10:33 Which is often true with catholic 10:35 It's there, but still yeah, it's still, 10:36 it's an important day Friday for them I said 10:39 it should that be a protected right also 10:42 and I got no answer for them many months, 10:46 but after few months I got an answer from 10:49 the Bishop of the secretary of the Vatican Council 10:52 for Christian unity. Bishop do pray who has by 10:56 the way since then died and who was a friend 10:58 of mine writing back and showing me 11:01 and saying well I'm sorry for the delay, 11:03 but I had to consult with various dicasteries 11:07 ministries of the Vatican to see what the position 11:10 was and he answered and said yes that should also 11:13 be a protected right and that's an important 11:16 for them in other words they realize that 11:18 in protecting Sunday it goes against religious 11:24 liberty if we don't protect the rights 11:27 of people that observes another day. 11:28 Well of course I'm glad they realize that, 11:31 that is the principle of religious liberty. 11:33 That's the right of all people to worship 11:35 in a way that the conscious describes where 11:37 God listen whether I think they are right or not. 11:39 But I Is the right to be wrong 11:41 That's right exactly That to be protected in that and 11:43 And I personally think of ours as a religious 11:46 liberty advocate that it is not becoming 11:50 and it's not helpful really too much for churches 11:53 to expect the state to go and protect people 11:58 and encourage people to go to church that is 12:01 something that they should do because of 12:02 their conscious, because of their belief, 12:04 and because of the fellowship of the church, 12:06 but it shouldn't be something that the state 12:08 should kind of be pushing for, 12:11 it's not the duty of the state. 12:12 No not at all in fact as you know very well 12:16 and we keep reminding our viewers in leadership 12:19 to a liberty magazine it's the separation of 12:21 churches state, exactly, the best enables continue 12:24 religious freedom. After the break, 12:27 I want to come back and we'll discuss 12:30 a little bit further this issue of the dynamic 12:34 of incipient Sunday laws 12:36 and where we are going prophetically 12:38 and how we relate this to religious liberty. 12:49 100 years a long time to do anything 12:52 much less publish a magazine, 12:55 but this year liberty the Seventh Day Adventist 12:58 Voice of religious freedom celebrates 100 years 13:01 of doing what it does best. 13:03 Collecting, analyzing and reporting the 13:06 add and flow of religious expression around the 13:08 world. Issue after issue, liberty has taken 13:12 on the tough assignments tracking down threads 13:14 to religious freedom and exposing the work of the 13:16 devil in every corner of the globe. 13:19 Governmental interference, personal attacks, 13:22 corporate assaults, even religious freedom issues 13:25 sequestered within in the church community 13:26 itself have been clearly and honesty exposed. 13:30 Liberty exists for one purpose to help God's 13:33 people maintain that all the important separation 13:36 of church in state. Well recognizing the dangers 13:39 inherent in such a struggle. 13:41 During the past century, liberty has experienced 13:44 challenges of its own, but it remains on the job. 13:48 Thanks to the inspired leadership of a long line 13:50 of dedicated Adventist editors, three of whom 13:52 represent almost half of the publications existence 13:55 and the foresight of a little woman from 13:57 new England. 100 years of struggle, 14:01 100 years of victories, religious freedom 14:04 isn't just about political machines 14:06 and cultural prejudices, it's about people fighting 14:10 for the right to serve that God they love as their 14:13 hearts and the Holy Spirit dictate. 14:16 Thanks to the prayers and generous support 14:18 of Seventh Day Adventist everywhere. 14:20 Liberty will continue to accomplish it's work 14:23 of providing timely information, spirit filled 14:25 inspiration, and heavens sent encouragement 14:28 to all who long to live and work in a world 14:32 bound together by the God 14:33 or dane bonds of religious freedom. 14:42 Welcome back to The Liberty Insider 14:44 before the break those of you that were 14:46 watching we would discussing with 14:49 Dr. Butt Beach. We were discussing the 14:53 what some people picked up on movements 14:55 towards some sort of Sunday if not our 14:58 legislation protection of Sunday observance in 15:01 Secular Europe, which is little shocking 15:04 to some people. Well religious force is a 15:07 pushing back and we see evidence the 15:10 Catholic Church is asserting itself 15:11 as never before there is an undeniable secularity 15:15 in Europe isn't it? Something that maybe 15:16 we can discuss is fairly recently there was 15:19 an issue involving the display of crucifixes 15:22 in Italy. Tell our viewers about that. 15:26 At the prevent time, if you go to Italy 15:28 and Italian schools you'll see in many 15:32 classrooms are crucifix on the wall, 15:34 you would see it maybe in hospitals and 15:36 government hospitals and type of place. 15:38 They were in Catholic Italy 15:39 that's almost culture like on this. 15:41 There is no doubt that the Italy is a majority 15:44 catholic country. I would say maybe 80% 15:47 of whatever it is of the population is associated 15:50 one way or another with the Roman Catholic 15:52 Church because that doesn't mean of course 15:53 that they faithfully go to church practice 15:56 in fact most males in Italy are especially 15:59 rarely go to church they may go you know 16:02 at their they probably be there at their 16:04 Baptism presumably and have much to say 16:08 about it, they go for the weddings 16:09 and they go to their funerals and then 16:11 between some event they will go to church 16:15 maybe 3, 4, 5 % of the population 16:18 go to church on a given Sunday so on 16:21 so it's that's a very secular county, 16:23 but in the schools there is crucifixes well. 16:26 The European Court which is under the 16:30 influence of European secularization maybe 16:33 more and some of the national courts passed 16:36 a decision recently posing this 16:40 and telling the Italians that they are no longer 16:43 That they were doing the crucifix 16:44 Allow to have crucifixes because 16:45 This is in the schools particularly 16:47 In the schools because this was seen as something 16:51 supporting the Christian religion and the people 16:55 that are not christian maybe secularists maybe 16:58 their maybe Jews, maybe Hindus, 17:02 maybe whatever even protestants 17:04 who don't use crucifix they may use a cross, 17:06 but not a crucifix so on they fell that their 17:10 secular their children are secondary citizens 17:13 in that schools and are being inculcated by the 17:17 principles of the Roman Catholic Church 17:18 and so that court decided that was 17:22 unconstitutional in a way in the European 17:24 union for them to do that and of course 17:28 the Italian Church and some Italian government 17:31 another up an arms about it, but at the present 17:34 time that is what the highest court has decided. 17:37 Yeah well I remember reading the report on it 17:38 and you say there up an arms, 17:40 but I haven't heard the reaction is there a real 17:43 push back from the Catholic Church. 17:44 This is an attack on there, their home. 17:46 Yes there is I mean the Catholic Bishops 17:49 in Italy have passed resolutions and another 17:51 saying that this is bad and of course 17:54 in order to justify it what they say is well the 17:58 crucifix is simply a kind of historical symbol 18:01 of Italian culture and of course that partly true 18:06 I mean there is some, it's part of the Italian 18:08 culture in a way, but there is no doubt that 18:10 it is a symbol associated with the 18:13 Roman Catholic Church as such and therefore 18:17 if you have separation of church in state, 18:19 which is what they have in Italy 18:21 supposedly the catholic church. 18:23 Do you think, do they really have anything 18:24 approaching US separation of churches 18:26 Not like the US, but for example the 18:27 Catholic Church until a few years ago was 18:30 the state church it is no longer the state 18:32 church in Italy even by Italian legislation 18:35 it's not a state church, but it is the seen your 18:38 church, it is the largest church and therefore 18:41 influential and so therefore it feels 18:43 that this is against this, this just they claim 18:47 is discriminating against the majority of the 18:50 population and that the minority is being given 18:53 more rights then the majority in a way. 18:55 Yeah this is an interesting development because 18:58 I believe another programs I've gone 19:02 on it length about the European union, 19:04 which I've been watching for many years 19:05 and to me is almost prophetic development 19:08 and I've seen in a number of developments, 19:12 where Rome is assorted itself as never before 19:15 is an essence the religious God father 19:16 of this organization, but this strikes against 19:19 the idea that they've got a struggle for this 19:22 The Roman Catholic Church has tried to 19:24 assort itself, but it's been defeated in the 19:27 European Union on several instances 19:29 for example they tried the European Union 19:33 has been working on a new constitution 19:37 to kind a make it more in harmony with present 19:40 developments in the European Union 19:42 the constitution is gonna role now a few decades 19:45 Back. Well as I remember they had to do that 19:48 because of comments from Pope John Paul II 19:51 wasn't it, the constitution was largely defeated 19:55 because he cast the Persians on it 19:57 Well, it's true, but it's just the opposite 20:01 in a way in other words the constitution 20:04 that has been prepared is a constitution that makes 20:08 no reference to Christianity 20:10 and Catholicism. Oh they yes 20:13 the present one, but the first draft which was 20:16 rejected I remember was in the context 20:18 of some maligning statements from 20:20 Rome and it collapse While it was rejected, 20:23 I think by one or two states 20:25 Yes, but that meant the Liberty to start 20:26 But the one was another launch 20:28 for example not exactly are overwhelmingly 20:31 the Roman Catholic country. 20:32 No, no. It's you know and so on, 20:34 so it's not been it's not an action yet, 20:38 but the catholics want reference to be made 20:41 Yes, yes within their interest 20:42 I'm quite sure myself that when the constitution 20:44 is past finally it will not be what the 20:47 Catholic Church exactly wants they may make 20:50 some kind of reference to past history was 20:54 influenced by Christianity or something like that, 20:58 but I don't think it will be quite what the 20:59 Roman Catholic Church wants because 21:02 they are living today in separation of church 21:04 in state and therefore they do not 21:06 want that type of thing. 21:08 Now jumping a little bit in my mind connected 21:11 remember Pope Benedict, I think it was made an 21:16 interesting statement not too long ago, 21:18 not too long into his pontificate about 21:20 Turkey as a potential influence into the 21:23 European Union perhaps not sharing the same 21:27 values and I'm not sure he said it directly, 21:29 but the implication was not the same religion as 21:32 christian Europe and created some problems, 21:36 and the only reversed himself following 21:39 it was embarrassment at Regensburg then he said 21:43 well that we consider that they could perhaps 21:45 join. With that comment in mind let's move on to 21:49 something that has happened recently 21:51 in Switzerland again secularist in an agenda 21:57 that is consistent with the European Union 22:00 Switzerland through it's own unique governor 22:05 system brought in is a rule 22:08 or law against Minarets. 22:11 Well let me say what happened 22:12 And that's created a fury 22:13 What happened, the Switzerland of course 22:14 you know is a country that has 22:17 Well I know, but we need to explain 22:18 so different sort of government 22:20 26 cantons like states in each one of the 22:23 state is quite independent like states 22:25 in Unites States. Yeah. 22:26 They have their own legislation, 22:27 their own legislatures and all that and some 22:31 of them are protestants and some of them are 22:33 Roman Catholic. I think the protestants 22:35 are in the majority and the catholics are 22:37 substantial minority I mean it's pretty 22:40 close so on. So that's the Italian, 22:42 so the Swiss history is one of Christianity 22:46 based either on the reformed view, 22:49 I mean the protestant or the Roman Catholic 22:51 view the other churches minorities 22:54 and so on and muslims have been coming in 22:56 recently and growing and growing 22:58 and growing. Well the Swiss have 23:01 looked about the situation and they 23:03 seem what has happened in another countries 23:05 riots in France and so forth 23:07 with the muslims, problems in Germany 23:09 and more and more muslims coming in 23:11 and the Swiss while there in favor of 23:13 Religious Liberty and tolerance. 23:16 They are also in favor of keeping the status quo, 23:18 yes, and they are really conservative people 23:20 they want to keep the way it is and so they in 23:24 Switzerland they have the possibility 23:26 of what they call a referendum 23:28 That was good, I'm pleasure worked it up. And yeah 23:30 Such reflective of In which the people decide 23:33 Popular opinion right the religious 23:35 In other words the popular opinion 23:36 decides and it's not the government 23:38 because the government in Switzerland 23:40 was in favor of allowing minarets to be build 23:43 when they build mosques and all political parties 23:46 in Switzerland were in favor except 23:48 one was suppose, but all the others were oppose, 23:53 but when they came to the people the people 23:55 voted by quite substantial majority 23:59 and people were surprised. 24:00 I forgot what the majority been, 24:01 but something like around 58-60 % to 40 43, 24:06 I forgot what it was but it wasn't just 24:07 Now it was a majority 24:09 It was a solid majority as far in politics 24:11 voted not to allow the building of minarets 24:14 now they can build mosques in Switzerland, 24:17 but the Swiss would have decided they are not 24:19 going to have these minarets. Well they say 24:24 Which are seen by many people 24:26 The cultural disconnect 24:27 As a kind of symbol of Islamic dominance 24:30 and as symbol of political symbol almost 24:33 and that we're not gonna have minarets 24:35 in all villages and towns they are standing 24:38 next to our churches and church steeple 24:41 and probably higher than the church steeple 24:43 and all that. So, of course as a religious liberty 24:46 advocate I must say that I think it should 24:49 It's problematic isn't it? 24:50 Allow in a way minarets maybe restrict the site 24:53 and something like that I don't know 24:55 how to control that, but I don't think they should 24:57 limit people in for just religious reasons 25:01 even though it maybe political reasons, 25:03 but I understand why the Swiss did that 25:05 knowing having living Switzerland 25:07 for many years as a child 25:08 Alright and this is the conflict between the real 25:11 world situation and the theory of religious liberty 25:15 in standing for freedom you may actually 25:20 link up with some very adverse social conditions. 25:23 Yeah right. So you need to look at 25:24 what's really going on here and Europe 25:26 is under a self inflicted cultural attack 25:29 I think they brought it's not so much 25:32 of religious issue, but they brought 25:34 peoples of other countries and other religions 25:37 in growing numbers and now there cultural 25:40 identity is under threat and there is the risk 25:43 that the religion that comes with that 25:45 new culture will be put in conflict 25:46 with the religion of the other. 25:47 And they of course they feel they have 25:49 established religion, we have piece 25:50 in our country it's been that way for 25:54 many years maybe even couple of centuries, 25:58 we get a long we don't want to have anything 26:01 now that's gonna upset the upper curve, 26:03 and they start having discussions about things. 26:06 But seems to me that this is precisely the sort of 26:09 political religious clash that's likely to 26:11 precipitate final events rather than an 26:13 incremental decay or decline of 26:16 religious liberty. Well there is no doubt 26:18 in my mind that if certain difficulties develop 26:22 in the world, where we have tragedies, 26:26 we have terrorism, we have crime in the streets 26:29 and people willing to adopt certain actions 26:34 in order to try to strengthen their 26:36 position under faith and maybe even 26:38 pass a Sunday law in order to show 26:40 that they recognize the sovereignty of God 26:42 and do not want these other new forces 26:45 to be active in their country. 26:49 100 years ago when liberty magazine 26:51 was began, the United States was 26:53 convulsed by discussion of whether or not 26:56 they should be a national Sunday law. 26:58 Those days long past, there is no current effort 27:03 to legislate Sunday, but many that wrote to me 27:07 at liberty magazine particularly 27:08 Seventh Adventist see much to suspect around 27:12 the world in movements toward some sort of 27:15 Sunday law and there is no question that 27:17 with such religious forces in different countries 27:20 even in Europe are wishing and working for such 27:23 a thing probably Sunday legislation that will 27:27 fulfill prophecy of a final nature will arrive 27:30 after some Cataclysmic Event. 27:32 We should never take our freedoms for granted, 27:35 but we should never also project our worst 27:38 fears onto a more benign situation one that 27:42 we can presently defend against, 27:43 one that will protect our freedoms in the context 27:48 of religious laws and correct witness 27:51 to the world free of suspicion and paranoia 27:56 that recognizing the prophecy indeed 27:58 will be fulfilled one day. 28:00 For liberty insiders this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2014-12-17