Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the program that brings
you the very latest news, views,
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information and discussion
on religious liberty events.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine
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and my guest on the program
is Dr. Bert Beach. Welcome.
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Happy to be here again.
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Dr. Beach, as our viewers
should know, has got a great
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and distinguished
career in religious liberty.
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For many years you were head of
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the World
Religious Liberty Department.
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You have met government
leaders over the years.
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You've been part of our dialog
with other religious groups.
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And you've really
seen a lifetime sweep of
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religious liberty.
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I'd like to
discuss a little with you.
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As you've worked with religious
liberty through the years,
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I'm sure you've seen very clear
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signs of God's
providence working.
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Where you could almost
see the hand of God working
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to intervene in a situation.
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What are some of these times
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that you could
share with the viewers.
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Well, over the years, you
know I started as a young man.
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I was on the team of
Dr. Nussbaum back in the
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early 50s in Paris, France.
- Now, who is Dr. Nussbaum?
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I was working on my doctorate
at the University of Paris and
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I became interested in religious
liberty because Dr. Nussbaum was
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probably the leading
religious liberty expert
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in our church at the time.
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He was a medical doctor.
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But he was also a minister and
having evangelistic campaigns.
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Every year in Paris he had
evangelistic campaigns and I was
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part of his team while I
was also working on my doctorate
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at the University of Paris.
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He introduced me to several
politicians that were around.
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He introduced me
to Eleanor Roosevelt.
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I have my picture, one of
my prized pictures is a picture
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with Eleanor Roosevelt.
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Three or four of us with
Dr. Nussbaum back around 19...
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Be careful, you're
going to date yourself.
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What year would that
have been, you think?
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I was, that was about 19, let me
see, I was, went back to Europe
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in 1953, around '51, '52.
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Okay, I don't, I
don't quite remember that.
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Right after the United
Nations was founded in '48.
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And the Universal
Declaration of Human Right.
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Well, United UN was founded
a little bit earlier, '45, '46.
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But the Universal Declaration
of Human Rights, with article 18
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which upholds religious liberty
- It's a very central document.
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a very good statement, was
actually done about in '48.
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Mrs. Roosevelt was at that
time the chairman or chairlady,
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that's what we would call it now
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of the Human Rights Commission
of the United Nations.
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So it was a pleasure
meeting this distinguished lady.
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It's nice to have that
picture that goes back 50 years.
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But anyhow,
talking about providences.
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There are several
things that I could mention.
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Every providence
also teaches you a lesson.
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I could mention several.
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But one that comes
to my mind right now
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is the experience with
an Italian soldier in Italy.
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I was principal of our
school in Italy at the time
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and he was called
to military service.
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He had just finished
our school, had graduated
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and was called to the army.
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And that was alright.
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They had military
service in Italy at the time.
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Suddenly, we get a phone
call from him saying that
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you know, I'm supposed to be
involved in grenade practice.
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Our church's view is then
recommending non-combatancy.
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Isn't it?
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Well, of course they had no
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non-combatancy in
Italy at the time.
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It didn't exist.
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So, he was in the army.
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They have it now, by the way.
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In fact, they don't even have
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required
military service anymore.
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That was back in the 1950s.
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That was '50, '54,
something like that.
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Next Sabbath, they're
having grenade practice.
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Now the military has
given me off on Sabbath always
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while he was in
the service, he says.
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But they won't
give me off for this.
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They say, you have to be there.
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You have to practice in this.
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This is very
important and so on.
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What can you do to help me?
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Well, the religious
liberty of our Italian Union
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had been the
preceptor at the school with me
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for several years before.
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He was now in Italy, Dr. Rossi,
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also a world figure in
religious liberty later on.
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He was in Rome.
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So I called and he came up.
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We both went to the
Army, to the regiment
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where this young man
was serving in the Army.
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And you were to speak
to his superior officer.
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We met with the
colonel and the captain,
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the captain of his company
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and the colonel in
charge of the regiment there.
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Then we made our
presentation to them, saying
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you know, we're
Seventh-day Adventists.
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We observe the Sabbath.
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We think it's the Lord's
day and it's very important for
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Seventh-day Adventists
to be in church on that day
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and to worship God.
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We can't do military practice.
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I remember the colonel saying,
this is absolutely impossible.
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This is grenade practice.
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Grenades are
dangerous, and so on.
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This is, he has to be there
and find out how grenades work,
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because somebody could blow him
up or he could blow himself up
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or blow up and so on.
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This is, we just
cannot do that kind of thing.
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And I remember still saying,
Lord, help us here because
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I don't know what
we can do about this.
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I mean, this is a
very difficult situation.
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Right after I thought of
that, the captain speaks up.
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The captain says to the colonel
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Well, it's too bad we can't
help this young man somehow,
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because he the best
soldier I have in my company.
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And that's usually the
best response with someone
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with a Sabbath problem.
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The best soldier I
have in my company.
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The best soldier.
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And he was
almost, funny in a way.
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The colonel was like one of
these weather vanes, you know?
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He just
immediately changed like that.
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But of course.
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In Italy we
respect human conscience
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and we try to do our
best to help people out.
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It is a difficult situation
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but we will have to
do something about this
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and we have to help this
soldier because he's... so on.
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I learned there,
God intervened, I think,
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you know, to kind of get the
captain to say the right thing.
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But also, I learned a lesson.
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It is much easier to
help solve a religious liberty
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problem in employment
or whatever it might be
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Army, whatever it is,
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when the person is respected by
his employer and by the others
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because he is a good
employee or a good soldier.
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That's what I was
suggesting before.
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That was the first
lesson I wanted to mention.
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I've seen that
in the United States
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in some of these
Sabbath issues in employment.
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It's one thing to have
a legal right to it, but
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if that person is exemplifying
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their Christian
faith in the workplace
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then it's much easier to get it.
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But, if they're acting
contrary to their profession
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it doesn't
really matter so much.
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If a person tends to be a
little bit overly fanatical,
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you might say, and go to
the employer or whatever it is
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and say well, you
know I have the right.
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You have to give me off.
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The constitutional law says
the employer has to try to make
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provision for the religious
beliefs of his employees
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and it my right, and so on.
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If you do that, and yet you're
kind of lackadaisical on the job
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and not that good of an employee
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the employer is not
going to listen to you
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quite nearly as well.
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So that was the
first experience.
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Of course, that's reminiscent
of Daniel and Joseph.
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We've got plenty
of Biblical examples.
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Live the life, walk the walk,
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and talk the talk.
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I had another
experience which was kind of
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very interesting for me
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a personal experience because
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I was working on my doctorate
at University of Paris, then
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I had to go and be principal
of our school in Italy.
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All my documents were in
foreign ministry in Paris.
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I was doing a doctorate, I mean
dissertation on US and French
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diplomatic relations
during the reconstruction period
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in US after the
Civil War and so forth.
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So I was working
on that and so on.
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The time approached where
I was beginning finishing my
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dissertation, and the
time had come that I was
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going to have to
have the defense.
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You know, what they
call in French, soutenance
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The soutenance.
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Defend your thesis.
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The something where you
sustain your thesis in French
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But in America we
just say the defense
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of your dissertation or
your thesis and so forth.
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Then the professor told
me to go down in the archives
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and look at the other theses
that were there and see how they
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put out the front page, you
know and all that kind of stuff
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so that I would use the
right format and all that
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Get the same format, yeah.
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which was not important
for the content but the format.
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Then I checked on the defense,
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and I noticed that every single
defense was always on Sabbath.
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Hmmm.
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Boy, I got scared.
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I said, now I've
worked all these years
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to get this dissertation done
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and now I'm not able, will
not be able to go and defend it.
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I mean, all
that's going to be lost.
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Lord, you have to do something.
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In the meantime, my
professor had become dean
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of the school of letters
of the University of Paris.
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He knew you were a
Seventh-day Adventist.
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He knew I was a
Seventh-day Adventist, yes.
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I don't know how much he knew
what that meant, exactly but
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he probably thought,
well, he's a good guy.
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He does good work for me.
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These Seventh-day Adventists
must be a little bit queer
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you know, a little sect in a big
Catholic country and all that.
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But anyhow, he always treated
me with respect and everything.
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So, I go and see him and he said
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Now, when you want to
have the date for your defense
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because it was coming
to where I was finished.
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I had finished these and he said
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if you turn it in
by the first of May
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you can have your
defense before the end of May.
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Then on about the
seventh or tenth of June,
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I had a boat leaving
France to go to America for the
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General Conference session
and my furlough and so forth.
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So it was very, there
was a tight schedule there.
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He said, what date
do you want to have it?
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I chose a Wednesday.
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As far as possible in the week.
00:10:29.59\00:10:31.19
I said if I have to
move one day that way.
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You were well clear.
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Or one day that
way and all that.
00:10:35.28\00:10:36.31
He said, well, that's fine.
00:10:36.34\00:10:38.67
I can set the date.
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I'm the dean and I set
the date for the defense.
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So you saw God
parting the waters for you.
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So it was set.
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After all that was set, I
said I noticed that all the
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defenses have
always been on Saturday.
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He said, Yes. It is more
convenient for the school
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because the rooms are empty.
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You can have, people can
come and attend, you know visit
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and be in the audience
and so forth, for the defense.
00:11:02.59\00:11:05.45
He says, I can set
the date, and so on.
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So, when I came and signed
in for my defense on the day
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the secretary looks up at me,
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Oh, you're the person
with the lightning defense.
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Because the date had been set.
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Instead of having to wait
until all of the others who had
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finished came
before me he had skipped.
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I said, that was a little
bit of divine intervention,
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because if he hadn't been dean
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in the meantime, I
probably would have, you know,
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I could have appealed and
probably maybe succeeded but
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I thought the Lord
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took a great burden off my back.
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There's no question
that as I hear that story,
00:11:43.49\00:11:46.22
that God was leading
and opening the way for you.
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I don't have
the slightest doubt.
00:11:48.82\00:11:50.20
And I'm reminded, working with
religious liberty, so often,
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while we depend on laws, and
governmental contacts and so on,
00:11:53.99\00:11:58.14
all of that's fine and necessary
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but at the end of the day, it's
God's leading, God's providence
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God's
intervening in human affairs
00:12:02.64\00:12:05.42
that makes the difference.
00:12:05.45\00:12:06.43
We're going to take a break and
we'll be back after that break
00:12:06.46\00:12:10.08
to discuss more
with Dr. Bert Beach
00:12:10.12\00:12:11.82
how God's
providences worked in his life
00:12:11.85\00:12:14.65
and in his experience in
Religious liberties situations.
00:12:14.68\00:12:17.59
a long time to do anything,
much less publish a magazine.
00:12:28.41\00:12:32.76
but this year, Liberty,
the Seventh-day Adventist
00:12:32.79\00:12:35.82
voice of Religious
Freedom, celebrates 100 years
00:12:35.83\00:12:39.26
of doing what it does best,
00:12:39.29\00:12:40.27
collecting, analyzing and
reporting the ebb and flow
00:12:40.30\00:12:44.40
of religious
expression around the world.
00:12:44.43\00:12:46.68
Issue after issue, Liberty has
taken on the tough assignments,
00:12:46.69\00:12:51.02
tracking down threats to
religious freedom and exposing
00:12:51.05\00:12:53.57
the work of the devil in
every corner of the globe.
00:12:53.60\00:12:56.78
Governmental
interference, personal attacks
00:12:56.81\00:12:59.67
corporate assaults,
even religious freedom issues
00:12:59.70\00:13:02.56
sequestered within the
church community itself
00:13:02.59\00:13:04.77
have been clearly
and honestly exposed.
00:13:04.80\00:13:07.36
Liberty exists for one purpose,
00:13:07.37\00:13:10.10
to help God's people maintain
that all-important separation
00:13:10.13\00:13:14.00
of church and state,
00:13:14.03\00:13:15.35
while recognizing the dangers
inherent in such a struggle.
00:13:15.38\00:13:18.75
During the past century,
00:13:18.78\00:13:20.60
Liberty has experienced
challenges of its own
00:13:20.63\00:13:23.08
but it remains on the job,
00:13:23.11\00:13:25.24
thanks to the inspired
00:13:25.25\00:13:26.97
leadership of a long line of
00:13:27.00\00:13:28.38
dedicated Adventist editors,
00:13:28.41\00:13:29.71
three of whom represent almost
00:13:29.74\00:13:31.15
half of the
publications existence,
00:13:31.19\00:13:33.16
and the foresight of a little
00:13:33.19\00:13:34.47
woman from New England.
00:13:34.50\00:13:36.40
Religious freedom isn't just
about political machines and
00:13:41.15\00:13:44.10
cultural prejudices.
00:13:44.13\00:13:45.42
It's about people,
00:13:45.45\00:13:47.21
fighting for the right
to serve the God they love
00:13:47.24\00:13:50.52
as their hearts and
the Holy Spirit dictate.
00:13:50.55\00:13:53.64
Thanks to the prayers
and generous support of
00:13:53.67\00:13:56.15
Seventh-day
Adventists everywhere,
00:13:56.18\00:13:58.25
Liberty will continue
to accomplish its work of
00:13:58.28\00:14:00.81
providing timely information
Spirit-filled inspiration
00:14:00.84\00:14:03.92
and heaven-sent encouragement
to all who long to live and work
00:14:03.95\00:14:08.69
in a world bound together
by the God-ordained bonds
00:14:08.72\00:14:12.46
of religious freedom.
00:14:12.47\00:14:15.18
Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
00:14:20.51\00:14:22.17
This is Lincoln Steed,
again, with Dr. Bert Beach.
00:14:22.20\00:14:26.37
Before the break,
Bert, we were going over
00:14:26.40\00:14:29.92
we'd gone over two
stories that you were telling,
00:14:29.95\00:14:32.29
both in your own life
and your own experience
00:14:32.30\00:14:35.06
or your work
with religious liberty
00:14:35.09\00:14:36.88
of where you'd
seen God's leading.
00:14:36.91\00:14:38.40
I think this has got to
be inspiring for our viewers
00:14:38.43\00:14:41.81
to know that while we're
dealing with laws and rights
00:14:41.84\00:14:45.80
and history a lot of the
time, at the end of the day
00:14:45.84\00:14:48.47
it's really God's
leading and God's providence
00:14:48.50\00:14:51.04
that facilitates
religious liberty.
00:14:51.07\00:14:52.84
What else can you share with us?
00:14:52.87\00:14:55.37
There's a couple
of experiences that I
00:14:55.40\00:14:58.18
could just mention but I,
first of all I'll just mention
00:14:58.19\00:15:00.73
it's important, when a person
has a religious liberty problem
00:15:00.76\00:15:04.71
to take a firm stand.
00:15:04.74\00:15:06.48
A very polite stand,
00:15:06.51\00:15:07.98
and a very friendly stand
00:15:08.01\00:15:09.94
you know, not to be a
kind of a cold, legalistic,
00:15:09.97\00:15:14.26
person that always knows
more than the other people.
00:15:14.29\00:15:17.51
But, you have to
take a stand. You can't
00:15:17.54\00:15:20.12
What's that, dare to be a Daniel
00:15:20.15\00:15:21.16
Standing by a
purpose true. Right?
00:15:21.19\00:15:22.19
Exactly. Remember, for example
the example of our church
00:15:22.22\00:15:25.92
over in Romania a few years ago,
00:15:25.95\00:15:28.16
where the
government set the examination
00:15:28.19\00:15:31.68
as I recall, and
I'm going by memory now,
00:15:31.71\00:15:34.18
for students who
finished the secondary school
00:15:34.21\00:15:37.89
to kind of go to university,
and that examination, one of the
00:15:37.92\00:15:42.11
examinations, at least, was set
on Sabbath for the whole nation.
00:15:42.14\00:15:45.72
That was a real problem.
00:15:45.75\00:15:48.22
Our students,
most of the students
00:15:48.25\00:15:52.38
and of course our church in
Romania is not a small church
00:15:52.41\00:15:55.50
comparatively for Europe.
00:15:55.53\00:15:56.99
I think it has, what
is it, 80 thousand members
00:15:57.02\00:15:59.34
or something like that
00:15:59.37\00:16:00.47
which is quite a
number for Europe.
00:16:00.50\00:16:02.48
There's no other
country in Europe
00:16:02.51\00:16:03.55
that has that many members.
00:16:03.58\00:16:05.01
Maybe Russia
might be an exception
00:16:05.04\00:16:08.87
but that's not really
just Europe; it's also Asia.
00:16:08.90\00:16:11.32
But anyhow, I don't know
how many students there were
00:16:11.35\00:16:17.38
but I have a feeling it was
maybe over a thousand students.
00:16:17.41\00:16:20.56
The great majority of
them took a stand and said
00:16:20.57\00:16:24.81
we will not take the
examination on that day.
00:16:24.84\00:16:28.60
That's a wonderful
testament to their training.
00:16:28.63\00:16:29.71
On that day, we will
not take the examination.
00:16:29.74\00:16:31.32
Please make provision for us to
add another date or something.
00:16:31.35\00:16:35.20
Some, a few did
take the examination.
00:16:35.23\00:16:37.69
A few. But very few.
00:16:37.72\00:16:39.14
The majority did not.
00:16:39.17\00:16:40.84
The government, seeing
that they took the stand,
00:16:40.87\00:16:44.27
finally the
government, at the end, very
00:16:44.30\00:16:48.51
Begrudgingly, huh?
00:16:48.54\00:16:49.52
the government gave in
and set a date for them.
00:16:49.55\00:16:52.71
But if they had, kind of,
let's say half of them had
00:16:52.74\00:16:55.93
accepted to take the examination
00:16:55.96\00:16:58.84
it would have been very
difficult for the other half.
00:16:58.85\00:17:00.64
I remember my wife, in
Belgium, she was a student
00:17:00.67\00:17:05.61
in a state school there,
00:17:05.62\00:17:07.50
of course, the only
Adventist in the whole school.
00:17:07.53\00:17:09.94
She and a Jewish girl
used to go and ask for
00:17:09.97\00:17:14.07
not have the examinations
on Sabbath for them and the
00:17:14.10\00:17:17.30
government would, the authority
at the school, I shouldn't say
00:17:17.33\00:17:20.00
the government, even though
it was a government school,
00:17:20.03\00:17:21.79
the principal, and so
on would make arrangements,
00:17:21.82\00:17:24.88
OK. You can take the
examination at a different time
00:17:24.91\00:17:27.10
or before or after or
whatever it was, and so on
00:17:27.13\00:17:31.03
But finally, the Jewish girl,
when it came to be the final
00:17:31.06\00:17:34.29
towards university
entrance type of thing,
00:17:34.32\00:17:36.61
the Jewish girl said her
father said, well, we'll get the
00:17:36.64\00:17:40.08
church give you a permit
00:17:40.11\00:17:41.57
Dispensation.
00:17:41.60\00:17:42.58
dispensation to be
able to do it. She got back.
00:17:42.61\00:17:43.58
And my wife was alone.
00:17:43.60\00:17:45.30
It was very
difficult to go and face alone.
00:17:45.33\00:17:48.70
But she did. She
faced the teacher
00:17:48.71\00:17:50.94
and said she could not do it
00:17:50.97\00:17:52.04
and they let her not take
the examination on that day.
00:17:52.07\00:17:56.12
So, if you take a
stand, it's very important
00:17:56.13\00:17:58.32
God supports you
in that and it helps.
00:17:59.81\00:18:02.46
Now we may need to remind
our viewers of this because
00:18:02.49\00:18:04.50
communism has come and gone and
some of these other difficulties
00:18:04.53\00:18:07.79
of the past, but this
particular one is still with us.
00:18:07.82\00:18:10.13
Many Adventist and
other people of faith are in
00:18:10.16\00:18:13.66
public school
situations and often the exams
00:18:13.69\00:18:16.63
or some
certification is on a holy day.
00:18:16.66\00:18:20.54
Exactly.
00:18:20.57\00:18:22.14
You can compromise and
maybe no one else notices,
00:18:22.17\00:18:26.18
but you are
spiritually compromised.
00:18:26.21\00:18:28.15
I don't think God is
overly pleased with this.
00:18:28.16\00:18:31.28
I think God will stand by you.
00:18:31.31\00:18:33.45
Right. This is an opportunity
00:18:33.48\00:18:35.56
to strengthen our
faith, to witness.
00:18:35.59\00:18:37.63
I know of instances in
which some of our young
00:18:37.66\00:18:39.69
people have lost a year.
00:18:40.42\00:18:41.54
But, even after a year they did
get the examination and got it.
00:18:41.57\00:18:46.42
They lost a year, were
able to do something else maybe
00:18:46.45\00:18:48.92
during that time.
00:18:48.95\00:18:50.18
They stood firm
and they were able to
00:18:50.21\00:18:54.24
get the
examination later on anyhow.
00:18:54.25\00:18:55.25
One other instance
that comes to my mind as I
00:18:55.28\00:19:00.98
talk to you here today was
at the University of Birmingham.
00:19:01.11\00:19:04.56
We had a Seventh-day Adventist
student whose father was the
00:19:04.59\00:19:07.19
manager of our food
factory in England, at the time.
00:19:07.22\00:19:11.10
and he was a medical student.
00:19:11.13\00:19:12.47
I get a phone call from
him during the week and he says
00:19:12.50\00:19:18.17
Next Sabbath
there is an examination.
00:19:18.20\00:19:19.96
I don't want to
take the examination
00:19:19.99\00:19:22.70
because it's on the Sabbath.
00:19:22.73\00:19:25.00
Can you help me?
00:19:25.03\00:19:26.16
I said, Well, I'll see.
00:19:26.19\00:19:28.50
I found one of the
other workers in England,
00:19:28.53\00:19:30.77
I think, the religious
liberty director of the
00:19:30.80\00:19:33.65
North British, North
England Conference went with me.
00:19:33.68\00:19:37.84
I went and met the
dean of the medical school.
00:19:37.88\00:19:40.18
I talked to him about this.
00:19:40.21\00:19:43.37
He said, well, if they
had come earlier, maybe
00:19:43.40\00:19:47.75
Yes, I am glad
you're bringing this up.
00:19:47.78\00:19:50.20
The earlier the better.
00:19:50.23\00:19:51.73
Don't wait till
the problem exists.
00:19:51.76\00:19:53.47
Coming to me the
week before was very late.
00:19:53.50\00:19:55.29
First of all, you should try to
00:19:55.32\00:19:58.72
head off the
problem right to begin with.
00:19:58.75\00:20:01.17
Before they set the date,
00:20:01.20\00:20:02.23
talk to the
people who set the dates
00:20:02.26\00:20:03.74
Please, don't have it on
that day because I can't do it.
00:20:03.77\00:20:07.16
But anyhow, they
hadn't done that.
00:20:07.19\00:20:10.38
I talked to the dean.
00:20:10.41\00:20:12.87
Well, this is all set now.
00:20:12.90\00:20:15.03
We can't change that anymore,
and so forth, he talked.
00:20:15.06\00:20:21.13
I could tell that I
was not getting very far.
00:20:21.16\00:20:24.18
I said, Lord you
have to help me here.
00:20:24.21\00:20:26.35
So I said to the dean,
It's a position of our church.
00:20:26.38\00:20:31.68
But, it's not just the
position of the church,
00:20:31.71\00:20:33.64
I think it's
this man's conscience.
00:20:33.67\00:20:36.06
Right.
00:20:36.09\00:20:37.07
His conscience does
not allow him to do that.
00:20:37.08\00:20:40.26
And I can see the dean
kind of taking a position.
00:20:40.29\00:20:44.53
I could see him thinking.
00:20:44.56\00:20:46.65
These Adventist, they think they
are going to tell me what to do
00:20:46.68\00:20:49.45
this church.
00:20:49.48\00:20:51.38
But he said, well,
you know, I'm a person,
00:20:51.41\00:20:54.02
I respect an
individual's conscience.
00:20:54.05\00:20:57.73
Based on that statement,
00:20:57.76\00:21:02.23
arrangements were made
00:21:02.26\00:21:03.36
for him not to take the
examination on the Sabbath.
00:21:03.39\00:21:05.72
I don't remember whether
he took it on another day
00:21:05.75\00:21:08.01
before or after
00:21:08.04\00:21:09.11
but because of his conscience
00:21:09.14\00:21:11.55
That's another lesson.
00:21:11.58\00:21:13.37
Conscience is...
00:21:13.40\00:21:16.63
A lot of people, even Communists
and people of that type
00:21:16.66\00:21:19.63
even Atheists.
00:21:19.66\00:21:20.64
So it's tied up to
integrity, isn't it?
00:21:20.67\00:21:23.16
Yeah, integrity. They will...
00:21:23.20\00:21:24.42
They don't like
religious fanaticism.
00:21:24.45\00:21:26.97
Sometimes we come over
00:21:27.00\00:21:29.01
to them as being a
little bit fanatical.
00:21:29.05\00:21:31.54
Even though we may not be
00:21:31.57\00:21:33.28
but that's the image they get.
00:21:33.31\00:21:34.95
If everybody observes Sunday
00:21:34.98\00:21:37.16
what's wrong with these fanatics
that think that they know better
00:21:37.19\00:21:39.87
and observe another day.
00:21:39.90\00:21:41.24
But if you tell them
it's based on conscience
00:21:41.27\00:21:44.55
and the individual
conscience is something supreme
00:21:44.58\00:21:47.61
they respect
that, many of the people
00:21:47.64\00:21:49.69
even people that
are secular sometimes.
00:21:49.72\00:21:51.41
To me, that's the
ultimate principle
00:21:51.44\00:21:53.25
that God's working with us.
00:21:53.28\00:21:54.92
There's a text in
the Bible that says
00:21:54.95\00:21:57.62
the times of
ignorance God winks at.
00:21:57.65\00:21:59.20
Exactly.
00:21:59.23\00:22:00.21
God's not really gonna
just give a pass to us.
00:22:00.24\00:22:02.75
If we're under conviction,
00:22:02.79\00:22:04.18
if we've responded to
him and we know what he wants
00:22:04.21\00:22:07.56
we have to be true to that.
00:22:07.59\00:22:09.24
So we follow our conscience.
00:22:09.27\00:22:11.07
I felt the Lord had led in that.
00:22:11.10\00:22:12.85
In His providence,
00:22:12.88\00:22:14.36
He gave me the right
expression to use with that man.
00:22:14.39\00:22:18.45
I didn't know ahead of time.
00:22:18.48\00:22:20.21
I couldn't prepare for that.
00:22:20.24\00:22:21.25
I didn't know what to say.
00:22:21.28\00:22:22.26
I was just saying regular,
can you make arrangements,
00:22:22.29\00:22:25.03
it's the Seventh-day Adventist
belief, and church and all that.
00:22:25.04\00:22:28.08
I was not getting
anywhere, but suddenly
00:22:28.11\00:22:30.34
the Lord...
00:22:30.37\00:22:32.02
You were at the
General Conference
00:22:32.05\00:22:33.69
during the
Vietnam war, weren't you?
00:22:33.72\00:22:35.79
During that era
in the 60's and 70's?
00:22:35.82\00:22:38.83
I came to the
General Conference in 1980.
00:22:38.86\00:22:40.89
Maybe we can
speak to this in passing
00:22:43.24\00:22:46.84
It seems to me the
church's position on war
00:22:46.87\00:22:50.92
has always been that
of conscientious objector.
00:22:50.95\00:22:53.62
Exactly.
00:22:53.65\00:22:55.43
In our lifetimes,
that's mostly been
00:22:55.46\00:22:59.02
the more recent wars, Vietnam
00:22:59.05\00:23:00.59
and yet with the volunteer army
we don't hear much talk about
00:23:00.62\00:23:04.57
conscientious objection.
00:23:04.60\00:23:06.05
But we have the
same underlying issue
00:23:06.08\00:23:09.06
No because, the state is
more respectful of a conscience
00:23:09.10\00:23:13.09
when a young person is drafted.
00:23:13.12\00:23:15.66
The person is forced,
basically to be in the army
00:23:15.69\00:23:20.57
They're still a free moral agent
00:23:20.60\00:23:21.60
and then he's
protected a little bit more.
00:23:21.63\00:23:23.30
If a person volunteers,
00:23:23.33\00:23:25.10
he's protected
also but not as much
00:23:25.13\00:23:28.24
because they'll say
well why did you volunteer?
00:23:28.27\00:23:30.86
Nobody forced you to come.
00:23:30.89\00:23:33.33
You put yourself in
this situation yourself.
00:23:33.36\00:23:35.50
Of course, many
of them volunteer
00:23:35.53\00:23:37.19
and don't expect a war,
00:23:37.22\00:23:38.93
And don't
realize what's happening
00:23:38.96\00:23:39.95
and don't realize.
00:23:39.98\00:23:40.95
They think it's just
a way of getting money
00:23:40.96\00:23:42.59
to be able to go on to
university or college later on.
00:23:42.62\00:23:45.94
Then they
suddenly find themselves
00:23:45.97\00:23:48.44
in Iraq or Afghanistan.
00:23:48.47\00:23:50.45
I wish through this program we
could encourage those not just
00:23:50.48\00:23:53.60
Seventh-day Adventist, but
there are other people of faith
00:23:53.63\00:23:56.25
they need to
exercise their conscience.
00:23:56.28\00:23:58.25
There's one more story
comes to mind I'd like to do.
00:23:58.28\00:23:59.36
Yeah, if we can fit it in we
got a couple of minutes left.
00:23:59.39\00:24:01.61
That's a story in Nicaragua.
00:24:01.64\00:24:03.48
One day, I got a telephone call
00:24:03.51\00:24:09.38
from the president of
the Inter-American Division
00:24:09.41\00:24:11.43
I think it was
George Brown at that time.
00:24:11.46\00:24:13.86
He says, Bert,
00:24:13.89\00:24:16.11
the government in Nicaragua
00:24:16.14\00:24:17.93
has closed everyone
one of our churches,
00:24:17.94\00:24:20.30
has closed our schools,
00:24:20.33\00:24:21.66
has closed our
headquarters office
00:24:21.67\00:24:23.63
all at one time.
00:24:23.66\00:24:25.40
It was under the
Sandinista Regime at the time.
00:24:25.43\00:24:28.06
They had gotten the impression
00:24:28.09\00:24:30.09
that somehow the
Seventh-day Adventist Church
00:24:30.12\00:24:32.13
was part of the US, CIA
00:24:32.16\00:24:34.52
There would be an identification
with the United States
00:24:34.56\00:24:36.60
I don't know
what happened exactly.
00:24:36.63\00:24:38.74
So I say, What shall
I do, what shall I do
00:24:38.77\00:24:41.62
I found out, to
cut the story short,
00:24:41.65\00:24:44.86
that the Nicaraguan
ambassador in Washington
00:24:44.89\00:24:49.20
was also the ambassador
to the UN of Nicaragua
00:24:49.23\00:24:51.86
I telephoned his office
and I got a secretary there
00:24:51.89\00:24:55.21
secretary, one of
the secretaries of the
00:24:55.24\00:24:57.73
not what they call...
secretary, that's the term
00:24:57.76\00:25:03.12
not a secretary in the
sense of a lady in the office
00:25:03.13\00:25:05.79
An under-secretary
for the ambassador
00:25:05.82\00:25:07.37
and I said would it be possible
for me to talk to the ambassador
00:25:07.40\00:25:10.62
I would like to have
an appointment with him
00:25:10.65\00:25:12.69
I need to see him.
00:25:12.72\00:25:13.73
Oh, he's very busy.
00:25:13.76\00:25:14.86
He's leaving
tomorrow or day after tomorrow
00:25:14.89\00:25:17.29
In two days he
leaves for Nicaragua
00:25:17.30\00:25:19.29
He needs to go, he
has no time and so forth.
00:25:19.32\00:25:21.61
Somehow the ambassador suddenly
comes on to the telephone
00:25:21.64\00:25:24.81
By providence, really.
00:25:24.84\00:25:26.61
It was God's leading
00:25:26.65\00:25:27.62
And I ask him,
can you please come.
00:25:27.71\00:25:30.72
We'd like to have dinner
with you here at the office.
00:25:30.75\00:25:33.11
Can you come and meet
with us so we could discuss the
00:25:33.14\00:25:35.34
situation that's developed in
Nicaragua regarding our church.
00:25:35.38\00:25:37.77
He said, I'll come
to the office tomorrow.
00:25:37.80\00:25:40.17
He came to the General
Conference headquarters.
00:25:40.20\00:25:41.83
Ambassadors don't come to the
General Conference headquarters
00:25:41.86\00:25:44.92
when they have
never met with you before.
00:25:44.95\00:25:46.86
And so he comes.
00:25:46.89\00:25:48.55
I explain the situation and say,
00:25:48.58\00:25:50.38
We're supportive of governments.
00:25:50.41\00:25:51.77
We're not interfering.
00:25:51.80\00:25:52.82
We're not part of the CIA.
00:25:52.85\00:25:54.61
We never do
anything of that type.
00:25:54.64\00:25:55.93
He says, at the end,
to cut it short, he says
00:25:55.96\00:25:59.29
I'm going tomorrow to
Nicaragua, it just so happens
00:25:59.32\00:26:03.37
and I will meet with the
junta running the country
00:26:03.40\00:26:06.59
and I will be your spokesman.
00:26:06.62\00:26:09.50
Wonderful, wonderful. God
was clearly leading there.
00:26:09.53\00:26:12.06
Within a matter of days
00:26:12.09\00:26:13.39
the report came
back from Nicaragua;
00:26:13.40\00:26:15.69
the churches are open,
00:26:15.72\00:26:17.14
the school is open,
00:26:17.17\00:26:18.65
the headquarters has
been returned to the office.
00:26:18.68\00:26:21.09
We've never had
any problems since
00:26:21.12\00:26:22.69
in our church in Nicaragua.
00:26:22.72\00:26:24.35
They understood.
00:26:24.38\00:26:25.46
We were part of a system
00:26:25.49\00:26:27.47
trying to
cooperate with government
00:26:27.50\00:26:29.08
but not involved in any
underhanded situation like that.
00:26:29.11\00:26:35.07
So that's the situation.
00:26:35.08\00:26:36.82
I think it's one
of the great stories
00:26:36.85\00:26:38.46
of divine intervention.
00:26:38.49\00:26:40.00
I was just a little
00:26:40.03\00:26:42.79
instrument that God used
00:26:42.82\00:26:44.32
in order to be able to save
our church in that situation.
00:26:44.35\00:26:47.75
The poet Robert Burns once wrote
00:26:50.13\00:26:52.28
and I'll try to give it in
the original Scottish brogue,
00:26:52.31\00:26:57.09
he says, the best
laid plans of mice an' men
00:26:57.12\00:27:00.15
aft gang agley.
00:27:00.18\00:27:02.06
Or in other
words, often go awry.
00:27:02.09\00:27:04.89
But really, as Christians,
as believers in a higher being
00:27:04.92\00:27:09.26
we must believe that,
while our plans go wrong
00:27:09.29\00:27:12.44
very often, but always
00:27:12.47\00:27:14.64
God's plans, God's
purposes are always fulfilled.
00:27:14.67\00:27:18.29
As Bert Beach
said on our program
00:27:18.32\00:27:21.92
often reaching back
into his long experience with
00:27:21.95\00:27:24.41
religious liberty,
there are many evidences
00:27:24.44\00:27:27.09
that God works
providentially through
00:27:27.12\00:27:29.94
the contacts that we have
00:27:29.97\00:27:31.45
in claiming religious
liberty for many individuals
00:27:31.48\00:27:35.53
the contacts that
we have with government
00:27:35.56\00:27:37.58
where we often see an
unresponsive government
00:27:37.61\00:27:40.18
or a previously
indifferent official
00:27:40.21\00:27:43.01
recognizing that, yes,
this person does have faith.
00:27:43.04\00:27:46.32
They are exemplifying the
principles of their religion
00:27:46.35\00:27:49.43
and they do indeed merit
accommodation and notice.
00:27:49.46\00:27:53.13
This will always, to me, prove
that what were on about with
00:27:53.16\00:27:57.52
religious liberty
is God's business.
00:27:57.55\00:28:00.35
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:28:01.27\00:28:05.50