Welcome to the Liberty insider.
00:00:21.42\00:00:23.46
This is program that
brings you up to date news,
00:00:23.49\00:00:26.01
views,
information and discussion on
00:00:26.04\00:00:27.84
religious liberty
issues. My name Lincoln Steed
00:00:27.87\00:00:31.37
and I am editor
of Liberty Magazine.
00:00:31.40\00:00:33.46
My guest on the
program is Dr. Bert Beach
00:00:33.49\00:00:36.37
welcome Dr. Beach.
Dr. Beach has a long
00:00:36.40\00:00:41.64
career in religious
liberty. For many years
00:00:41.67\00:00:43.93
he was director of the
religious liberty program
00:00:43.96\00:00:45.90
at the headquarters of
the, world headquarters
00:00:45.93\00:00:47.89
of the Seventh
Day Adventist church.
00:00:47.92\00:00:49.21
I want to talk with
you on this program,
00:00:50.57\00:00:52.87
Bert about something
that's quite contemporary.
00:00:52.90\00:00:55.43
Many people, even
if they weren't really
00:00:55.46\00:00:58.70
particularly
watching church date issues
00:00:58.73\00:01:01.44
were startled recently
to hear the Pope of Rome,
00:01:01.47\00:01:05.11
Pope Benedict
offer to accept into
00:01:05.14\00:01:09.87
the Catholic Church priests
of the Anglican Communion.
00:01:09.90\00:01:13.46
Now, almost anybody
knows that there was a
00:01:14.77\00:01:17.81
reformation, there
was a Henry the 8th and
00:01:17.84\00:01:19.84
there was a complete
division between Rome and the
00:01:19.87\00:01:22.99
Church of England and
it's sort of startling to,
00:01:23.02\00:01:25.02
to realize that we
maybe coming to the end
00:01:25.05\00:01:27.96
of that divide. What
do you think is really
00:01:27.99\00:01:30.57
in play here in that,
that generous offer but
00:01:30.60\00:01:33.48
yet troubling
merging of, of quite two
00:01:33.51\00:01:37.42
distinct
doctrinal organizations.
00:01:37.45\00:01:40.57
Well, what was,
what was disturbing for
00:01:40.60\00:01:41.75
some people especially
was that it was handled in
00:01:41.78\00:01:46.12
a way that
wasn't very ecumenical,
00:01:46.15\00:01:49.35
because there is no
doubt that the separation
00:01:49.38\00:01:52.96
between the Anglicans
and the Catholic church.
00:01:52.99\00:01:56.70
It was a very
complicated one and mixed,
00:01:56.73\00:01:59.68
it was doctrinal yes but
not completely doctrinal,
00:01:59.71\00:02:03.86
it was also political,
Henry the 8th wanted to get
00:02:03.89\00:02:06.62
married. Yes. And so
forth, that was expediency
00:02:06.65\00:02:09.05
for him, and the Pope
would not allow him to
00:02:09.08\00:02:10.88
because the King in Spain
was the, it was his sister
00:02:10.91\00:02:15.01
that had married Henry
and the Pope had to listen
00:02:15.04\00:02:17.47
to the influence
of the King of Spain.
00:02:17.50\00:02:20.47
So, the Pope's decision
was also a political decision
00:02:20.50\00:02:23.45
and so forth. So
there that separation in,
00:02:23.48\00:02:26.50
in between the
Church of England and, and
00:02:26.53\00:02:30.96
the Roman Catholic
Church was one that was very
00:02:30.99\00:02:33.66
mixed with not only in
that, it was nationalism
00:02:33.69\00:02:36.68
there was
economics involved, there was
00:02:36.71\00:02:39.22
doctrine certainly,
reformation but there was
00:02:39.25\00:02:43.18
also a very political
issue and so forth. Well,
00:02:43.21\00:02:46.65
so it was a
complicated, I need to throw in
00:02:46.68\00:02:48.73
Liberty Magazine we
had a series recently
00:02:48.76\00:02:51.34
retelling all of this
because it's a wonderful
00:02:51.37\00:02:53.19
history. But while
it was a mixed origin,
00:02:53.22\00:02:56.06
there is no question
that the rise of Protestant
00:02:56.09\00:02:58.62
theology that was
all through at Europe
00:02:58.65\00:03:01.40
took hold because of
this political development
00:03:01.43\00:03:04.16
and there was an attempted
counter reformation with,
00:03:04.19\00:03:06.66
with Queen Mary that
failed and by the time
00:03:06.69\00:03:10.02
of Queen Elizabeth Protestantism
00:03:10.05\00:03:12.81
was well established
and doctrinally distinct
00:03:12.84\00:03:16.00
in England, that's
how. So that happened and
00:03:16.03\00:03:19.02
now here in our age,
within our, something
00:03:19.05\00:03:21.87
reversing that, over
the years there has been
00:03:21.90\00:03:24.57
a gradual
increasing you might say
00:03:24.60\00:03:27.90
almost division in
the church of England.
00:03:27.93\00:03:30.80
Yes. In other words
there is collecting some ways
00:03:30.83\00:03:33.76
that's what, Roman catholic
what they, what they call
00:03:33.79\00:03:36.15
Anglo Catholics or
whatever you want to call
00:03:36.18\00:03:39.41
them they were tended
to be favorable to Rome
00:03:39.44\00:03:42.08
and then there was more
a evangelical Protestant
00:03:42.11\00:03:45.44
wing of the Anglican
church that tended to be
00:03:45.47\00:03:48.93
more for
separation. In fact if you go
00:03:48.96\00:03:51.34
to Lambeth Palace where
the Archbishop of Canterbury
00:03:51.37\00:03:54.13
resides in London,
he has a palace also
00:03:54.16\00:03:56.68
in Canterbury but
one also in London.
00:03:56.71\00:03:59.25
You can look at the long
hall there and you see the,
00:03:59.28\00:04:01.86
the paintings of the all
the Archbishops of Canterbury
00:04:01.89\00:04:05.14
and you can see
a kind of a gradual
00:04:05.17\00:04:09.51
change in the robes.
They're becoming more
00:04:09.54\00:04:13.06
like Catholic
like Rome; like Rome
00:04:13.09\00:04:15.90
and their robes over
the, over the decades
00:04:15.93\00:04:18.63
as viewed. It's an
interesting development so.
00:04:18.66\00:04:21.28
So, there is the
Anglo Catholic wing of the,
00:04:21.31\00:04:25.28
of the Church of
England and then there
00:04:25.31\00:04:27.30
is the Protestant
evangelical wing and so very
00:04:27.33\00:04:30.15
often you will have an
Archbishop of Canterbury
00:04:30.18\00:04:32.45
who will be from the, lets
say more of the Protestant wing
00:04:32.48\00:04:35.35
like Archbishop Carey was
until he retired 2-3 years
00:04:35.38\00:04:39.75
ago. And then the
next Archbishop usually
00:04:39.78\00:04:41.89
will be more the Anglo
Catholic wing and so on.
00:04:41.92\00:04:45.55
Like the current
archbishop is so.
00:04:45.58\00:04:47.39
So, there is that
there is, there are
00:04:47.42\00:04:49.93
that separation within, within.
00:04:51.42\00:04:53.21
Let me interject
something though yeah,
00:04:53.24\00:04:54.49
you know many of our viewers are
00:04:54.52\00:04:55.61
Seventh-Day
Adventist and does it or not
00:04:55.64\00:04:57.56
I need to remind them
that, the Seventh-Day Adventist
00:04:57.59\00:05:00.74
have seen this in a
great sweep of doctrinal
00:05:00.77\00:05:03.86
history and in the
great controversy written
00:05:03.89\00:05:06.26
by Ellen White. Of
what happened 150 years ago
00:05:06.29\00:05:09.79
well give or take,
you know she said that
00:05:09.82\00:05:13.12
this re-merging after
the Protestant reformation
00:05:13.15\00:05:19.48
would take place.
But a 150 years ago
00:05:19.51\00:05:21.59
that was not so
evident. I don't think
00:05:21.62\00:05:24.53
much of anybody in
America would have ever
00:05:24.56\00:05:26.39
expected Rome and Protestantism,
00:05:26.42\00:05:30.18
the Church of England to
be veering toward each other
00:05:30.21\00:05:33.57
rather than away. So,
something quite radical
00:05:33.60\00:05:35.86
has happened almost
within our lifetime.
00:05:35.89\00:05:38.18
Hasn't it? A lot
of things has happened
00:05:38.21\00:05:40.63
but it doesn't
mean, Yes, computers.
00:05:40.66\00:05:42.59
Program of a few
minutes can't go on everything.
00:05:42.62\00:05:44.87
Certainly there is
the concept of increasing
00:05:44.90\00:05:47.71
religious
liberty for example, yes.
00:05:47.74\00:05:49.78
England for
after the Elizabeth and
00:05:49.81\00:05:53.13
arrangement where in
Protestantism was in charge.
00:05:53.16\00:05:57.16
The Roman Catholic
Church actually to some
00:05:57.19\00:05:59.23
extent were prosecuted.
Yes, well theologically.
00:05:59.26\00:06:02.35
So, there was
definitely that's, so gradually
00:06:02.38\00:06:05.68
as you get more
ecumenical, as you get more
00:06:05.71\00:06:08.13
forwarded to
liberty. You kind of begin
00:06:08.16\00:06:11.04
to cooperate and then
there is a whole ecumenical
00:06:11.07\00:06:13.07
movement now. So
there is no doubt that
00:06:13.10\00:06:15.69
also there is a
division in the Anglican Church
00:06:15.72\00:06:19.16
and also in the Episcopal
Church in United States
00:06:19.76\00:06:22.14
which is the sister
church of Church of England.
00:06:22.17\00:06:25.31
In U.S. the
Episcopal Church where there is
00:06:25.34\00:06:28.46
those that favor for
example the organization of
00:06:28.49\00:06:30.89
women and those that are opposed
00:06:30.92\00:06:32.72
to the organization of women.
00:06:32.75\00:06:33.94
And then what is
even something more
00:06:33.97\00:06:35.95
difficult now and that is
the issue of homosexuality,
00:06:35.98\00:06:39.80
where priests and
pastors in the Anglican Church
00:06:39.83\00:06:44.53
are accepted to be
practicing, homosexuals are
00:06:44.56\00:06:49.19
accepted to be ordained
as priests in the Church
00:06:49.22\00:06:52.99
and then to top it all
of, there is the effort also
00:06:53.02\00:06:56.38
to ordain or to
consecrate bishops
00:06:56.41\00:07:00.11
who are
practicing homosexual. So,
00:07:00.14\00:07:01.95
there is one that
has been already accepted
00:07:01.98\00:07:06.95
in United States, the
bishop of New Hampshire.
00:07:06.98\00:07:09.26
Now in the Anglican
Church there are many
00:07:09.29\00:07:12.04
people that don't
want that. And particularly
00:07:12.07\00:07:14.59
in Africa, in Africa
it's a very conservative
00:07:14.62\00:07:17.85
but in the, but in
the church of England and
00:07:17.88\00:07:19.81
US those are totally
opposed to this concept
00:07:19.84\00:07:23.28
are those that tend
to be a little bit more
00:07:23.31\00:07:26.15
Anglo-Catholic
and so, some of those
00:07:26.18\00:07:29.61
feel that their
church has become so liberal,
00:07:29.64\00:07:31.76
so open on all these
practices that they don't
00:07:31.79\00:07:35.46
agree with, that they
feel maybe they should be
00:07:35.49\00:07:38.68
more comfortable if they
were in the Roman Catholic
00:07:38.71\00:07:41.11
Church. That is, what is
the part of the background;
00:07:41.14\00:07:44.15
there are other
things other issue. And so,
00:07:44.18\00:07:46.61
it doesn't surprise me that the
00:07:46.64\00:07:49.19
Roman Catholic
Church has been welcoming
00:07:49.22\00:07:51.14
Catholic priests and Catholic,
00:07:51.17\00:07:53.39
I mean excuse
me, Anglican priests
00:07:53.42\00:07:55.64
and members who
say well they feel mild
00:07:55.67\00:07:59.47
more comfortable with
Catholic Church then they
00:07:59.50\00:08:02.08
do with the more
liberal or you might say
00:08:02.11\00:08:06.99
and sometimes evangelical
church. Now, these, these,
00:08:07.02\00:08:08.89
these Anglican priests
who are being welcomed back
00:08:08.92\00:08:12.32
to Rome, are they
required to acknowledge the
00:08:12.35\00:08:15.80
primacy of papacy.
Yes, absolutely. So,
00:08:15.83\00:08:18.31
what does the
Catholic; what is surprising
00:08:18.34\00:08:20.67
is the Pope has
made a whole structural
00:08:20.70\00:08:23.28
arrangement, for
this, not just walking
00:08:23.31\00:08:25.66
them as
individuals but a structural
00:08:25.69\00:08:27.87
arrangement for, it's
a set aside within the
00:08:27.90\00:08:29.73
priesthood. In
other words he says if you
00:08:29.76\00:08:31.73
come in to the, to the
Catholic church as a, as a
00:08:31.76\00:08:35.02
a Anglican priest
and married and so forth,
00:08:35.05\00:08:38.87
you can be a priest
in the Catholic church
00:08:38.90\00:08:41.29
and keep your wife
and continue that way
00:08:41.32\00:08:44.03
and you will not be
under the local Bishop.
00:08:44.06\00:08:46.61
You will be under a
special kind of a bishop or,
00:08:46.64\00:08:51.17
I forgot about the name
what it's called exactly,
00:08:51.20\00:08:53.55
some special structure
that will be more attached
00:08:53.58\00:08:57.41
directly to Rome.
So, that you will be able
00:08:57.44\00:09:00.30
to keep you, you
will keep your, you can
00:09:00.33\00:09:02.45
practice your
liturgy. The Anglican liturgy
00:09:02.48\00:09:05.93
and the, and so forth
and level more or less like
00:09:05.96\00:09:09.96
you did before, but
you're in harmony with Rome,
00:09:09.99\00:09:13.44
but of course you have
to accept the primacy of the
00:09:13.47\00:09:15.18
Pope and the
supremacy of the Pope
00:09:15.21\00:09:17.71
and so forth. So,
and lot of Catholic;
00:09:17.74\00:09:20.49
Anglican priests
have been doing that
00:09:20.52\00:09:22.33
and members, but
you should also say
00:09:22.36\00:09:24.86
that they're quite
a few Roman Catholic
00:09:24.89\00:09:27.47
priests that are
leaving the Catholic Church
00:09:27.50\00:09:30.13
and want to go
into the Anglican Church
00:09:30.16\00:09:32.15
because they want to
get married and so on
00:09:32.18\00:09:35.34
and so and there is
several cases one recently
00:09:35.37\00:09:37.30
in, I think in Florida
quite, it came in the news
00:09:37.33\00:09:40.66
and so on. So, the
move is not only in one
00:09:40.69\00:09:42.87
direction there is
a move also out of the
00:09:42.90\00:09:45.30
Catholic Church
towards the Anglican Church
00:09:45.33\00:09:49.74
for priests that
want to be married.
00:09:49.77\00:09:51.80
Now, I know quite a
lot about or followed this
00:09:51.83\00:09:54.48
pretty closely but I
must admit I haven't heard
00:09:54.51\00:09:56.39
anyone
discussing the, the issue of
00:09:56.42\00:10:00.08
transubstantiation
in this, how does this
00:10:00.11\00:10:02.68
figure into it. I
haven't really heard that
00:10:02.71\00:10:04.64
discussion but I'm
sure that for many of those
00:10:04.67\00:10:07.92
priests they would not be
far from the Catholic view,
00:10:07.95\00:10:11.02
not far. But, but
the Church of England has
00:10:11.05\00:10:13.60
not seen the
Eucharist quite the same way.
00:10:13.63\00:10:16.60
Not quite the
same way but I think
00:10:16.63\00:10:18.57
they would not
see quite as same way
00:10:18.60\00:10:20.85
as most
Protestants would see. No.
00:10:20.88\00:10:23.11
They would be
closer. They were somehow
00:10:23.14\00:10:25.39
in between kind of and so on.
00:10:25.42\00:10:27.32
But I have, I can't
say, well I haven't really
00:10:27.35\00:10:29.89
read too much
recently on the discussion
00:10:29.92\00:10:32.11
regarding that
aspect. But there is what,
00:10:32.14\00:10:35.64
what does disturb
people; the ecumenical
00:10:35.67\00:10:39.66
people is that
apparently the Catholic Church
00:10:39.69\00:10:42.55
undertook this
arrangement, and this special
00:10:42.58\00:10:44.68
arrangement without
any consultation with
00:10:44.71\00:10:48.27
the Church of England, with the
00:10:48.30\00:10:49.48
Archbishop of
Canterbury. So, except
00:10:49.51\00:10:51.95
for about maybe 48
hours or something like that
00:10:51.98\00:10:54.97
before when it was
before it was announced.
00:10:55.00\00:10:56.79
So that is considered to
be by many as not a very.
00:10:56.82\00:11:00.64
Platform, platform.
Ecumenical approach.
00:11:00.67\00:11:02.44
Well, to me it's
reminiscent of faithful document
00:11:02.47\00:11:08.09
few years ago
unicity of salvation,
00:11:08.12\00:11:10.07
really there was no
warning to the Protestant
00:11:10.10\00:11:14.89
Churches that Rome
was about to issue a
00:11:14.92\00:11:16.81
document that essentially
restated the old view that
00:11:16.84\00:11:19.99
Rome is the one true church,
the Pope is superior to all
00:11:20.02\00:11:24.56
other leaders and sort
of take it or leave it.
00:11:24.59\00:11:26.35
You remember when that
came out, well that came out,
00:11:26.38\00:11:27.84
that rattled
the, I think it may,
00:11:27.87\00:11:29.95
maybe over
stating it a little bit.
00:11:29.98\00:11:33.35
I have read it. I
mean, I mean documents are,
00:11:34.96\00:11:36.97
remember I said that
the separated churches
00:11:37.00\00:11:38.46
are only churches at
all as they share the
00:11:38.49\00:11:41.41
common eucharist. And
then those they didn't
00:11:41.44\00:11:43.77
have these that and
some others were not even
00:11:43.80\00:11:46.27
regarded as Churches at
all. You know, that's, that's
00:11:46.30\00:11:48.32
an amazing, no they regarded as
00:11:48.35\00:11:49.77
Ecclesial Communions.
Yes, and, and salvation
00:11:49.80\00:11:53.42
they can have, they
can have salvation in
00:11:53.45\00:11:56.44
those churches. So, it's
not completely the old, old.
00:11:56.47\00:12:00.64
No, no, no, it's a new
one, it's something between
00:12:00.67\00:12:02.84
this. So, it's more
ecumenical but certainly it
00:12:02.87\00:12:05.45
puts the Catholic
Church on a pedestal
00:12:05.48\00:12:07.98
which is superior to
other church. Yeah, and, and
00:12:08.01\00:12:10.56
you know the whole
point of the reformation was,
00:12:10.59\00:12:12.48
was that that was
not be that pedestal
00:12:12.51\00:12:14.80
that we are sovereign beings,
00:12:14.83\00:12:17.74
spiritually who relate to God.
00:12:17.77\00:12:19.93
Not through a hierarchy.
And the priesthood of all
00:12:19.96\00:12:21.44
believers to some extent.
Right, yes, so we need to
00:12:21.47\00:12:23.74
reiterate I think even
in an year of ecumenism.
00:12:23.77\00:12:27.37
We need to reiterate
these basic Biblical truths
00:12:27.40\00:12:29.60
that have been fought
and even many have died
00:12:29.63\00:12:32.50
over them. Yeah,
there is no doubt that the
00:12:32.53\00:12:34.29
Anglican Church and
the Episcopal Church in
00:12:34.32\00:12:36.15
U.S. has a problem and
that there are congregations
00:12:36.18\00:12:40.01
that are leaving and
this whole question of
00:12:40.04\00:12:45.50
homosexuality, it's been,
it's being very contentious.
00:12:45.53\00:12:48.22
We will be back after
the break to discuss a
00:12:48.25\00:12:50.30
little bit more some of
the historic developments
00:12:50.33\00:12:52.38
with Christianhood.
00:12:52.41\00:12:53.49
One hundred
years a long time to do
00:13:01.40\00:13:04.50
anything much
less publish a magazine
00:13:04.53\00:13:06.76
but this year Liberty,
the Seventh-day Adventist
00:13:06.79\00:13:10.33
voice of religious
freedom celebrates 100 years
00:13:10.36\00:13:13.60
of doing what it
does best, collecting,
00:13:13.63\00:13:16.18
analyzing and
reporting the urban flow of
00:13:16.21\00:13:19.20
religious
expression around the world.
00:13:19.23\00:13:21.58
Issue after
issue, Liberty has taken
00:13:21.61\00:13:24.34
on the tough
assignments, tracking down
00:13:24.37\00:13:26.59
threats to religious
freedom and exposing the
00:13:26.62\00:13:28.73
work of the devil in
every corner of the globe.
00:13:28.76\00:13:31.23
Governmental
interference, personal attacks,
00:13:31.26\00:13:34.00
corporate assaults,
even religious freedom issues
00:13:34.03\00:13:37.14
sequestered within the
church community itself
00:13:37.17\00:13:39.39
have been clearly
and honestly exposed.
00:13:39.42\00:13:41.66
Liberty exists for
one purpose, to help God's
00:13:41.69\00:13:45.65
people maintain that
all important separation
00:13:45.68\00:13:48.51
of church and state
while recognizing the danger
00:13:48.54\00:13:51.63
inherent in such a
struggle. During the past
00:13:51.66\00:13:54.40
century Liberty has
experienced challenges of
00:13:54.43\00:13:56.89
it's own but it
remains on the job.
00:13:56.92\00:13:57.89
Thanks to the inspired
leadership of a long line
00:13:59.54\00:14:02.58
of dedicated Adventist editors,
00:14:02.61\00:14:04.22
three of whom
represent almost half
00:14:04.25\00:14:06.10
of the publications
existence and the foresight
00:14:06.13\00:14:08.33
of a little
woman from New England.
00:14:08.36\00:14:10.76
One hundred years of
struggle, one hundred years
00:14:10.79\00:14:14.05
of victories,
religious freedom isn't just
00:14:14.08\00:14:16.88
about political machines
and cultural prejudices.
00:14:16.91\00:14:19.66
It's about people
fighting for the right to
00:14:19.69\00:14:23.15
serve the God they
love as their hearts
00:14:23.18\00:14:25.79
and the Holy Spirit
dictate. Thanks to the prayers
00:14:25.82\00:14:29.35
and generous support
of Seventh-Day Adventists
00:14:29.38\00:14:31.72
everywhere. Liberty will
continue to accomplish its
00:14:31.75\00:14:34.88
work of providing
timely information, spiritual
00:14:34.91\00:14:37.57
inspiration and
heaven sent encouragement
00:14:37.60\00:14:40.03
to all who long to
live and work in a world
00:14:40.06\00:14:43.87
that bound
together by the God ordained
00:14:43.90\00:14:46.42
bonds of religious freedom.
00:14:46.45\00:14:49.42
Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
00:14:55.07\00:14:56.93
Before the break
I was talking with
00:14:56.96\00:14:58.83
Dr. Bert Beach
about really ecumenism
00:14:58.86\00:15:02.36
and some of the
recent developments
00:15:02.39\00:15:03.98
in the religious world
today and we'd spend some
00:15:04.01\00:15:07.90
time Bert talking
about the offer from Rome
00:15:07.93\00:15:11.18
that they could incorporate
some Anglican priests,
00:15:11.21\00:15:14.77
and member. Yes,
and members but it was
00:15:14.80\00:15:17.89
particularly about
priests who, who were more
00:15:17.92\00:15:20.57
comfortable with
Rome than with their
00:15:20.60\00:15:22.88
Protestant
Church. And what about
00:15:22.91\00:15:25.66
ecumenism. I know
you have been involved
00:15:25.69\00:15:28.16
representing the
Seventh-Day Adventist
00:15:28.19\00:15:30.39
church not in the
world council of churches
00:15:30.42\00:15:32.43
we need to tell some
of our Adventist viewers.
00:15:32.46\00:15:34.25
We are not a member
of that organization,
00:15:34.28\00:15:36.17
but we have been dialoging
through religious liberty
00:15:36.20\00:15:39.77
department
directly with many religions
00:15:39.80\00:15:41.92
for many years.
And also the world
00:15:41.95\00:15:43.83
council. Yes. We've
talked with them. Yes,
00:15:43.86\00:15:45.95
we have contact
with them. Ecumenism
00:15:45.98\00:15:49.68
can have a down side
and yet it can have a very
00:15:49.71\00:15:52.78
practical I believe even
a cross-centered dynamic.
00:15:52.81\00:15:58.52
Now, well I wrote
a book some years ago
00:15:58.55\00:16:01.60
it's gone out of print
now but I probably should
00:16:01.63\00:16:04.87
revise it, but I've never
got the inspiration of it.
00:16:04.90\00:16:06.93
Which book was this? It was
00:16:06.96\00:16:07.93
called Ecumenism Boon or Bane.
00:16:07.94\00:16:10.40
I thought it was the
book, you and I worked
00:16:10.43\00:16:12.27
on a book when I
was a book editor
00:16:12.30\00:16:14.33
in publishing, you
were probably were dealing
00:16:14.36\00:16:15.51
that was the
Bright Candle of Freedom.
00:16:15.54\00:16:16.94
Exactly, exactly,
well the very title
00:16:16.97\00:16:19.48
of that book
indicates that I felt that
00:16:19.51\00:16:22.78
maybe ecumenism had
a boon but it also had
00:16:22.81\00:16:25.56
a bane in another
words it had a good side
00:16:25.59\00:16:27.18
and the bad side.
I remember talking to
00:16:27.21\00:16:28.92
the Archbishop of
Canterbury some years ago
00:16:28.95\00:16:30.67
in Canterbury during
the Lambeth Conference
00:16:30.70\00:16:32.85
I was there and that
was Archbishop Coggan,
00:16:32.88\00:16:36.25
who of course has
passed away now and he said
00:16:36.28\00:16:38.83
well I suppose
your book emphasizes
00:16:38.86\00:16:41.85
more the bane than
the boon. I said well,
00:16:41.88\00:16:44.78
I think you're
probably right. In other words
00:16:44.81\00:16:47.39
there is a
positive side to ecumenism.
00:16:47.42\00:16:49.11
There is no doubt
when a moment says
00:16:49.14\00:16:51.31
we should be united.
Well that's Biblical,
00:16:51.34\00:16:54.70
John 17 as long as
it's on the right term,
00:16:54.73\00:16:57.67
exactly if the issue is
not whether we should be
00:16:57.70\00:17:00.88
united or not, we
agree on that and I think
00:17:00.91\00:17:03.83
ecumenical
movement and emphasizing the
00:17:03.86\00:17:05.89
fact that we should
kinder, we should be more
00:17:05.92\00:17:08.65
cooperative, we should
be more positive in dealing
00:17:08.68\00:17:12.13
with other people is
positive in that sense. Right.
00:17:12.16\00:17:14.83
It stands for religious
liberty because you cannot
00:17:14.86\00:17:17.46
have ecumenism really
without religious liberty.
00:17:17.49\00:17:21.08
It's very hard to
visualize how you could have
00:17:21.11\00:17:23.79
really the spirit of
ecumenism that is co-operation,
00:17:23.82\00:17:27.80
openness, fraternal
relations if you start
00:17:27.83\00:17:31.13
persecuting each
other. But of course in the
00:17:31.16\00:17:32.99
final events we
know that situation will
00:17:33.02\00:17:35.20
change. Although the
Bible seems to indicate.
00:17:35.23\00:17:36.76
And even people,
compromise, and even people that
00:17:36.79\00:17:38.79
advocate religious
liberty will say well now
00:17:38.82\00:17:40.89
there are certain
times where you cannot
00:17:40.92\00:17:43.33
have religious
liberty because there are
00:17:43.36\00:17:45.53
other rights
that have to be upheld
00:17:45.56\00:17:47.54
and religious liberty
might be in contradiction
00:17:50.13\00:17:51.10
to some of the rights
that some people have and
00:17:51.11\00:17:52.08
so forth. So, but the
basically I think they have
00:17:52.09\00:17:55.67
a more understanding,
more cooperation and
00:17:55.70\00:17:59.01
try to say the
truth about other churches
00:17:59.04\00:18:01.49
instead of making up
of stories and propaganda
00:18:01.52\00:18:04.68
and false statements,
all that is positive.
00:18:04.71\00:18:07.29
And to me this
is one good side of
00:18:07.32\00:18:09.22
ecumenical
dialogue where you sit down
00:18:09.25\00:18:12.47
across a table, such
as across a meal table
00:18:12.50\00:18:15.80
with these people,
socialize and bounce your
00:18:15.83\00:18:18.82
ideas off them.
Absolutely. And that way
00:18:18.85\00:18:21.57
you know really what
they believe and I will,
00:18:21.60\00:18:23.24
and rather than some
assumption and certainly
00:18:23.27\00:18:26.27
governments make
this all the time.
00:18:26.30\00:18:27.48
They don't
understand an organization.
00:18:27.51\00:18:29.24
I have been
involved in the dialogue
00:18:29.27\00:18:31.29
with the Lutherans
and with the Episcopal,
00:18:31.32\00:18:33.53
not Episcopal;
the Presbyterians,
00:18:33.56\00:18:35.70
the salvation army,
the World Evangelical
00:18:35.73\00:18:38.93
Alliance, even we
had some dialogue with
00:18:38.96\00:18:41.56
world council of
churches some 30-40 years ago,
00:18:41.59\00:18:44.12
a long time ago and
we've had some informal
00:18:44.15\00:18:47.23
discussion with
Roman Catholic Theologians
00:18:47.26\00:18:49.36
in connection with a
meeting of the conference
00:18:49.39\00:18:52.17
of secretaries of
Christian world communions
00:18:52.20\00:18:53.98
and I think all
that is very educational.
00:18:54.01\00:18:57.48
In fact I feel that my faith
in the doctrines and beliefs
00:18:57.51\00:19:02.74
and the organization
of our Church has been
00:19:02.77\00:19:05.59
strengthened as I am in
dialogue with others and have
00:19:05.62\00:19:09.75
to try to justify what
we stand for and explain
00:19:09.78\00:19:12.98
where we stand for.
So it's been a learning
00:19:13.01\00:19:15.14
experience, but also
an inspiring experience.
00:19:15.17\00:19:17.79
So in that sense I think
through, well doesn't Paul
00:19:17.82\00:19:20.57
in the Bible say
that we need to able to
00:19:20.60\00:19:22.14
give a reason for our
faith. Well, exactly and
00:19:22.17\00:19:24.22
this dialogue I think,
that sharpens your reason.
00:19:24.25\00:19:26.74
It also tells you to do
it and with three conditions.
00:19:26.77\00:19:30.07
It says give a reason
for your faith but do it
00:19:30.10\00:19:32.58
with, with respect
for the other, with a good
00:19:32.61\00:19:36.36
conscience and that is
honesty. So, have to do it
00:19:36.39\00:19:40.67
and all that is with
humility, respect and honesty.
00:19:40.70\00:19:44.18
As, as Peter
points out in his letter,
00:19:44.21\00:19:46.92
how it will when you
bring the faith to others.
00:19:46.95\00:19:49.39
So that's the positive
side. Now I think ecumenism
00:19:49.42\00:19:52.34
also has a negative
side in the sense that
00:19:52.37\00:19:55.18
it tends to try to work
for a common denominator
00:19:55.21\00:19:59.19
and that denominator can
sometimes be on a kind of
00:19:59.22\00:20:02.34
a lower level, it
doesn't emphasize certain truths
00:20:02.37\00:20:05.82
that should be upheld
and if you look at John 17,
00:20:05.85\00:20:08.43
that talks about unity
that they all maybe one.
00:20:08.46\00:20:12.48
Christ prayer and which is
the key text of the ecumenical
00:20:12.51\00:20:16.54
movement that they
refer to always, that they may
00:20:16.57\00:20:18.90
all be one. But you
look in that chapter
00:20:18.93\00:20:21.04
what does it say,
we should all be one.
00:20:21.07\00:20:22.62
Well, yes in truth
yes, in love, in liberty,
00:20:22.65\00:20:29.43
in evangelism and so
on. And you find that the
00:20:29.46\00:20:33.93
ecumenical movement
is strong on cooperation
00:20:33.96\00:20:37.46
regarding material
things, regarding health,
00:20:37.49\00:20:41.01
regarding maybe
poverty, how to deal with
00:20:41.04\00:20:44.15
poverty, hungry in
the world, even the globe
00:20:44.18\00:20:47.12
in which we live you
know. Well, the warming
00:20:47.15\00:20:50.88
of the world and know
how to deal with those
00:20:50.91\00:20:52.74
issues. The ecumenical
movement is very strong.
00:20:52.77\00:20:54.61
And those are
reasonable things to cooperate.
00:20:54.64\00:20:56.20
But these are all good
things. Yeah, but it is
00:20:56.23\00:20:58.22
very weak I find in the
area of real evangelism.
00:20:58.25\00:21:03.31
Yeah and has the
ecumenical movement truly come
00:21:05.37\00:21:08.97
to grips with the real
doctrinal belief differences
00:21:09.00\00:21:12.65
between different organizations.
00:21:12.68\00:21:14.24
Well, they've
tried. They, they tried to,
00:21:14.27\00:21:16.48
they've dealt with
baptism and they even had
00:21:16.51\00:21:18.99
a document that
presents, you know the
00:21:19.02\00:21:22.18
side of child baptism and
the idea of believers baptism
00:21:22.21\00:21:26.79
and so forth. But
it presents both sides,
00:21:26.82\00:21:28.96
it doesn't come down
clearly and say well,
00:21:28.99\00:21:31.41
that side is right
and that side is wrong.
00:21:31.44\00:21:33.78
That's what I mean and
so on, and also on other
00:21:33.81\00:21:36.10
things it has tended to
be for example it doesn't
00:21:36.13\00:21:39.05
come out and say
it assumes that Sunday
00:21:39.08\00:21:42.84
should be
observed in their document.
00:21:42.87\00:21:44.54
Let's observe the
Lord's day on Sunday;
00:21:44.57\00:21:47.29
it doesn't really
get into the issue
00:21:47.32\00:21:51.15
of Sabbath
verses Sunday. It simply
00:21:51.18\00:21:53.58
puts it aside and so
on, so they acknowledge
00:21:53.61\00:21:57.05
certain doctrines, they
is also the issue of like
00:21:57.08\00:21:58.99
for example state of the dead.
00:21:59.02\00:22:01.18
What is the position there,
well, there is no position
00:22:01.21\00:22:04.45
you could say in the
ecumenical moment. So,
00:22:04.48\00:22:06.26
I find one of the banes
if you wanna call it that
00:22:06.29\00:22:10.05
or one of the difficulties
that I have with the
00:22:10.08\00:22:12.43
ecumenical movement is
its lack of evangelism,
00:22:12.46\00:22:15.00
its lack in unconditional
authority of the word
00:22:15.03\00:22:20.08
of God. It says
tends to be, tends to be
00:22:20.11\00:22:23.27
liberal interpretations
of how you look at
00:22:23.30\00:22:26.60
scripture and.
Well, it really has to be,
00:22:26.63\00:22:28.36
a meaning of inspiration.
When you, when you're
00:22:28.39\00:22:30.92
dealing with
doctrinal Biblical absolutes
00:22:30.95\00:22:33.34
it doesn't lend easily
to, to sort of blending
00:22:33.37\00:22:36.26
disparate groups
does it. So, there are
00:22:36.29\00:22:39.16
problems and I
think it has with there,
00:22:39.19\00:22:42.04
in that sense and
sometimes I think also
00:22:42.07\00:22:44.34
the ecumenical movement
tends to be a little bit too
00:22:44.37\00:22:46.72
political and now
they will say well
00:22:46.75\00:22:50.12
you know politics is the
art of governing and doing
00:22:50.15\00:22:52.98
well for the
people and so forth, so
00:22:53.01\00:22:55.50
I understand that.
But I think it sometime
00:22:55.53\00:22:59.14
emphasizes positions
that are of a political
00:22:59.17\00:23:02.42
nature and. Do you
think that's significant
00:23:02.45\00:23:05.46
because you know as
I look in prophecy, in
00:23:05.49\00:23:09.18
Revelation 13, for
example it seems to be that
00:23:09.21\00:23:13.13
there is a political imposition
00:23:13.16\00:23:14.13
of generic
religious practice to come.
00:23:14.56\00:23:18.31
So could it be the
ecumenical movement that
00:23:18.34\00:23:21.13
lay the ground
work for that? It does,
00:23:21.16\00:23:23.13
of course it does,
lay the ground work
00:23:23.16\00:23:25.29
and you have to see
that's the reason why I think
00:23:25.32\00:23:27.21
it's important for
us to have observers
00:23:27.24\00:23:29.35
at meetings of
the world council.
00:23:29.38\00:23:30.99
Yeah, we need to be informed,
00:23:31.23\00:23:32.20
and I've gone, I
don't anymore now but
00:23:32.21\00:23:34.53
I used to go to meetings
of the central committee
00:23:34.74\00:23:36.69
with the status of an
adviser to the central committee
00:23:36.92\00:23:40.19
which means that I was
representing our church,
00:23:40.41\00:23:42.48
they knew that I was, they had.
00:23:42.70\00:23:44.16
But we are never
formally, I was never a member.
00:23:44.36\00:23:45.92
We never could vote
or anything like that
00:23:46.13\00:23:48.12
but you could see sometimes
say a few words and explain
00:23:48.34\00:23:51.79
your position and the, and
explain why you don't agree
00:23:51.99\00:23:54.94
with that and so forth.
So, I think that is good.
00:23:55.17\00:23:57.61
I think it is a very bad
position to be always absent
00:23:57.84\00:24:01.62
and have nothing to
do with others in their
00:24:01.93\00:24:04.37
organizations and
meetings, because it creates the
00:24:04.71\00:24:06.99
impression that
first of all that you think
00:24:07.21\00:24:09.09
you're much better.
Which, of course is a
00:24:09.31\00:24:11.51
pharisaical position so
forth. And also it creates
00:24:11.74\00:24:14.73
the position that you
do not want to cooperate
00:24:14.95\00:24:17.72
in good causes and
there are some good causes
00:24:17.93\00:24:20.53
that we pointed
out and so forth.
00:24:20.76\00:24:23.04
So, it has a negative
aspect and also it creates
00:24:23.27\00:24:27.03
a lack of knowledge. I
talked to my fellow believers
00:24:27.31\00:24:31.12
in our church very
often and I find them saying
00:24:31.34\00:24:33.41
certain things that
Catholics believes this or the
00:24:33.64\00:24:37.38
Anglicans believe.
Now, this is not unique to
00:24:37.60\00:24:38.71
Seventh-Day
Adventists. Not very often.
00:24:38.91\00:24:39.94
Many groups are
ignored about others.
00:24:40.16\00:24:41.22
It is not an
accurate position of what
00:24:41.46\00:24:42.69
they really believe to
say that Catholics worship
00:24:42.88\00:24:46.98
idols for example.
Well, maybe some Catholics do
00:24:47.19\00:24:50.15
do but it's not really
Catholic theology they;
00:24:50.37\00:24:53.31
it's, it's you use
them as an approach
00:24:53.57\00:24:56.89
to be able to get to God.
You see but it's, it's hard
00:24:57.11\00:25:01.07
to explain all of that.
But, I still, I still think
00:25:01.28\00:25:03.61
it's wrong. Well,
Protestantism has being quite
00:25:03.82\00:25:06.48
consistently opposed to
that aspect of ethnic practice.
00:25:06.70\00:25:10.68
Oh yeah, oh yeah, but you
have to. But you're right.
00:25:10.90\00:25:11.97
Even in the Seventh-day
Adventist church misuse of
00:25:12.21\00:25:15.59
Ellen White who, we're
quite convinced that God spoke
00:25:15.80\00:25:19.17
through her. But you know
if that gets out of kilter
00:25:19.37\00:25:21.99
it can be a problem
and others looking at some
00:25:22.20\00:25:25.89
Adventist to see
there that there is an undue
00:25:26.09\00:25:27.70
reliance on, if you find
pastors facing his sermons
00:25:27.96\00:25:31.19
almost exclusive on
Ellen G. White quotations,
00:25:31.48\00:25:34.60
you could you say well
you know that creates the
00:25:34.84\00:25:37.25
impression to people
that maybe he doesn't really
00:25:37.47\00:25:39.66
have full faith in the Bible.
00:25:39.89\00:25:42.25
Or maybe he
doesn't have full knowledge
00:25:42.49\00:25:43.84
Probably that is for sure. Yes.
00:25:44.07\00:25:46.08
We need to be
Biblically based and balanced
00:25:46.33\00:25:50.29
and not represent a
skewed view to other people.
00:25:50.52\00:25:53.70
I always like to go to
scripture and then I will go
00:25:53.93\00:25:56.81
to Ellen G. White and see
how she helps me understand
00:25:57.20\00:26:01.89
scripture. But it's the
scripture I have to understand
00:26:02.13\00:26:05.03
so in, in summation
though with the ecumenical
00:26:05.23\00:26:08.13
movement. Do you
think it's viable?
00:26:08.37\00:26:10.39
Is it moving ahead
strongly or is it pretty much
00:26:10.61\00:26:12.64
wandering in its own wilderness?
00:26:12.85\00:26:14.31
I think it's wandering a
little bit in the wilderness
00:26:14.52\00:26:16.26
right now, it, I think
it reached a high point
00:26:16.47\00:26:19.06
around 1960, 1970's
around there and then it started
00:26:19.26\00:26:26.87
kind of going into
decline. I don't think
00:26:27.08\00:26:29.76
the world council of
churches today has any where
00:26:29.99\00:26:32.28
near the
influence it used to have.
00:26:32.48\00:26:33.60
Its staff has
gone down considerably,
00:26:33.82\00:26:36.19
it has been reduced. It
does not have the influence
00:26:36.41\00:26:39.00
and I think the ecumenical
movement is weaker today
00:26:39.23\00:26:42.34
than it used to be
in many ways and I think
00:26:42.57\00:26:45.72
we should be aware of that
00:26:45.92\00:26:46.89
and it has, faces many problems.
00:26:47.07\00:26:49.61
In the book of John in
chapter 17, I read the prayer
00:26:52.01\00:26:57.60
of Jesus toward the
end of this ministry,
00:26:57.83\00:26:59.72
at the end of all
that he tried to accomplish
00:26:59.95\00:27:02.52
with his disciples,
he prayed to his Father
00:27:02.72\00:27:05.23
as he says that they maybe one
00:27:05.43\00:27:08.67
and that they of
course is both the Father
00:27:08.90\00:27:11.87
and his
disciples. It's being called
00:27:12.11\00:27:14.91
the prayer for unity.
Today as we look around us
00:27:15.16\00:27:18.59
in the religious
world there is a lot of easy
00:27:18.79\00:27:20.92
talk about
creating religious oneness.
00:27:21.13\00:27:24.07
But the oneness that
Jesus prayed for was not
00:27:24.30\00:27:27.48
creating out of
disparate beliefs one sort of
00:27:27.72\00:27:31.80
homogenized group of believers.
00:27:32.03\00:27:34.29
What Jesus was
talking about was inviting
00:27:34.50\00:27:37.67
of the Spirit of God
himself, of the essence of God
00:27:37.89\00:27:41.13
and communicating that to
others that is the oneness
00:27:41.39\00:27:44.92
of purpose of
principle and of absolute being
00:27:45.14\00:27:48.35
that he wished upon his
disciples and through them
00:27:48.59\00:27:51.86
he wanted to
communicate to the world.
00:27:52.08\00:27:54.01
Ecumenism is not a bad
word but oneness the best word
00:27:54.27\00:27:58.67
is to be found in that prayer.
00:27:58.90\00:28:00.41
For Liberty Insider
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:28:02.06\00:28:05.19