Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:00:21.76\00:00:23.26
This is the program that brings
you up to date news, views,
00:00:23.29\00:00:26.85
and information on
religious liberty issues.
00:00:26.88\00:00:29.85
My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine.
00:00:29.88\00:00:33.26
And my guest on the
program is Dr. John Graz.
00:00:33.29\00:00:35.91
Welcome John. For
our viewers sake I'd tell
00:00:35.94\00:00:39.61
them that not only do you head
up the religious liberty program
00:00:39.64\00:00:42.61
for the General Conference
of Seventh Day Adventists,
00:00:42.64\00:00:44.51
but you hold the position
of general secretary for the
00:00:44.54\00:00:47.77
Christian World Communion?
00:00:47.80\00:00:48.99
Yes, secretary for the
Christian World Communion,
00:00:49.02\00:00:51.16
which is just a meeting
between Christian leaders.
00:00:51.19\00:00:53.76
Yes. And you really run the
00:00:53.79\00:00:57.83
International
Religious Liberty Association.
00:00:57.87\00:01:00.28
Yes, I am secretary general
of the International Religious
00:01:00.31\00:01:03.49
Liberty Association.
You know it's an association
00:01:03.52\00:01:06.80
which was started by Adventists
in 1893, probably one of the
00:01:06.83\00:01:13.91
oldest associations
defending religious freedom.
00:01:13.94\00:01:18.04
It's open to everyone, it
meets in this association.
00:01:18.05\00:01:21.50
We have people from different
faiths, but focus, you know, on
00:01:21.53\00:01:25.93
the principle of religious
freedom for all and everywhere.
00:01:25.96\00:01:29.34
And with this association
we organize meeting of experts
00:01:29.37\00:01:33.84
every year, we produce document
on very important issues like
00:01:33.87\00:01:38.77
the defamation on religion.
These documents go to the
00:01:38.80\00:01:42.93
United Nations and so on.
00:01:42.96\00:01:44.42
Then we have also
congresses around the world.
00:01:44.45\00:01:46.97
You have a full program!
This is what I was going to
00:01:47.00\00:01:49.38
bring out to our viewers.
These are not just titles,
00:01:49.39\00:01:53.07
there are huge global
programs behind each of these
00:01:53.10\00:01:57.39
functions that you perform.
00:01:57.43\00:01:58.48
What I want to start on
this program discussing with you
00:01:58.51\00:02:02.16
and sharing with our viewers,
is something that you've really
00:02:02.19\00:02:05.76
developed in conjunction with
some of our different regional
00:02:05.77\00:02:09.91
leaders; what is known as the
Religious Liberty Festival of-
00:02:09.94\00:02:13.66
Religious freedom.
00:02:13.69\00:02:14.66
Festival of Religious Freedom.
00:02:14.67\00:02:15.97
And I went to one, and we
discussed it on the program
00:02:15.98\00:02:19.29
some time ago, but you
just had another big one.
00:02:19.32\00:02:22.64
We had the first world
festival of religious freedom
00:02:22.67\00:02:27.03
in Lima, Peru. In
International Stadium
00:02:27.06\00:02:30.63
and we had more than
40,000 people who attended.
00:02:30.66\00:02:35.41
That's four zero thousand.
00:02:35.44\00:02:36.92
That was one of the biggest
event and probably biggest event
00:02:36.95\00:02:40.69
about religious freedom
which has ever been organized.
00:02:40.72\00:02:43.59
Even through history I guess.
We had, you know, 2 or 3 years
00:02:43.62\00:02:48.12
ago, another big
event in Luanda, Angola.
00:02:48.15\00:02:51.96
We there were
more than 40,000 too.
00:02:51.99\00:02:54.87
And then after we had another
event in Bogota with 15,000
00:02:54.88\00:03:00.44
people in an indoor stadium.
And when you have these kind of
00:03:00.47\00:03:05.21
big events, you also most
of the time have other events
00:03:05.24\00:03:09.67
like forums, or
congresses, or seminars,
00:03:09.70\00:03:13.08
and the festival
is like the climax.
00:03:13.11\00:03:16.55
It's the culmination.
00:03:16.58\00:03:17.92
Which is interesting, of course,
when you can put so many people,
00:03:17.95\00:03:22.41
it attracts the authorities,
the government, and religious
00:03:22.44\00:03:25.81
leaders, and creates a fabulous
promotion for religious freedom.
00:03:25.84\00:03:31.40
Yes, and I agree with you,
I think this is, in some ways,
00:03:31.43\00:03:35.88
the most important thing we
can do for religious liberty.
00:03:35.91\00:03:39.57
Often religious liberty is
described by defending at the
00:03:39.60\00:03:42.84
margins and court
challenge and so on.
00:03:42.87\00:03:45.79
So things are all important, but
I think to motivate people to
00:03:45.82\00:03:49.10
recognize it, to tell the civil
leaders that it's important
00:03:49.13\00:03:54.01
to them, and they want
to keep it, that's the level
00:03:54.04\00:03:57.07
that I think we can make the
most difference in the world.
00:03:57.10\00:03:59.24
You know, we ask of people,
Do you want to keep religious
00:03:59.28\00:04:01.93
freedom? and they say,
Yes! when we have 40,000 people,
00:04:01.96\00:04:04.98
and say, Thank you
for religious freedom!
00:04:05.01\00:04:06.92
And the message is, we
love religious freedom,
00:04:06.95\00:04:09.90
we want to keep it. Not
just for us, but for all.
00:04:09.93\00:04:14.07
And we believe that in
doing such events we help people
00:04:14.10\00:04:19.04
who are defending us,
people who are defending our
00:04:19.07\00:04:21.89
rights. Most of
the time at the level
00:04:21.92\00:04:24.34
of government or countries,
those who are defending
00:04:24.37\00:04:28.51
religious freedom, proposing
new legislation to improve
00:04:28.54\00:04:33.45
religious freedom,
feel they are alone.
00:04:33.48\00:04:35.49
And it will
strengthen their hand I think.
00:04:35.52\00:04:37.69
Yes, because you don't
have a lot of people interested.
00:04:37.72\00:04:40.91
People are interested
when it's too late, but to say,
00:04:40.94\00:04:44.32
Thank you for what we
have and we want to keep it.
00:04:44.35\00:04:46.98
This is what we think is so
important to encourage people
00:04:47.01\00:04:51.71
at least. You know I say that,
00:04:51.74\00:04:53.58
everywhere where we
have religious freedom,
00:04:53.61\00:04:56.14
we should have such a meeting at
this once every five years maybe
00:04:56.17\00:05:00.48
to really attract the
attention of the public
00:05:00.51\00:05:04.78
about religious
freedom. We want to keep it.
00:05:04.81\00:05:09.79
It's important. I've
often thought about this.
00:05:09.82\00:05:13.14
Religious freedom is usually
described in the negative.
00:05:13.15\00:05:17.31
Very often. Something that
you've lost or is under threat.
00:05:17.35\00:05:19.35
But really precisely at the
point where no one troubles us
00:05:19.38\00:05:24.35
on our religious faith, and
we're able to live as our faith
00:05:24.38\00:05:27.80
impels us to, that's the moment
that we should make the biggest
00:05:27.83\00:05:31.30
noise about it. And
say why it's important.
00:05:31.33\00:05:33.65
Not wait until it's restricted
and say, I want it! I want it!
00:05:33.68\00:05:36.27
And you know we can see around
the world that there are less,
00:05:36.30\00:05:39.83
I should not say less
and less religious freedom,
00:05:39.84\00:05:42.49
but you can see that there
are more and more problems,
00:05:42.50\00:05:44.74
there is stress. And
especially when you minorities.
00:05:45.37\00:05:48.41
There are a lot of religious
minorities and they are not
00:05:48.44\00:05:53.72
important enough to
defend their rights.
00:05:53.75\00:05:56.03
And the biggest group
forget that they have also to
00:05:56.06\00:06:00.08
deal with minorities.
And it's so easy to have,
00:06:00.11\00:06:03.07
to pass legislation, and
suddenly you have a group,
00:06:03.10\00:06:06.67
or several groups, they are
just on the margin, their rights
00:06:06.68\00:06:11.54
are challenged, their pastor or
priest are arrested, they go to
00:06:11.57\00:06:16.49
jail. And you start a
cycle of oppression. Oppression.
00:06:16.52\00:06:20.82
It can happen everywhere and
I think if we are not very aware
00:06:20.85\00:06:26.20
that when you have religious
freedom, it's something which is
00:06:26.21\00:06:30.79
a privilege, it's a gift
from God, and a gift from your
00:06:30.82\00:06:34.63
government and so on.
But you have to be aware that
00:06:34.66\00:06:37.54
it's very fragile and
you have to do your best
00:06:37.57\00:06:40.52
to protect and defend it.
00:06:40.55\00:06:42.74
I'm glad you brought that
up. On this program I make great
00:06:42.77\00:06:46.63
pains to remind our viewers
that religious freedom we
00:06:46.66\00:06:50.02
inherently get from
God. Very much like the
00:06:50.05\00:06:51.96
Declaration of Independence
for the United States,
00:06:51.99\00:06:54.92
where it says,
'Self evident' rights.
00:06:54.95\00:06:57.64
We have it as someone that
accepts God and what He's done
00:06:57.67\00:07:02.12
for us, we're free of sin, we're
free from the power of sin,
00:07:02.15\00:07:05.10
but it's something given to
us. No man can take it away.
00:07:05.13\00:07:09.33
But in the human construct, yes,
fellow human beings can either
00:07:09.36\00:07:13.28
restrict our abilities
to follow through on that
00:07:13.31\00:07:16.02
inherent freedom
or they can enable it.
00:07:16.05\00:07:18.72
And we do want the
civil authorities to respect
00:07:18.75\00:07:21.53
this inherent right
and to facilitate it.
00:07:21.54\00:07:24.21
When you read the gospel and
when you read the books about
00:07:24.22\00:07:28.25
the history of Christianity,
you see that from the beginning
00:07:28.26\00:07:32.27
of the history
people were persecuted.
00:07:32.28\00:07:34.97
Then you remember during
three centuries, under the Roman
00:07:35.00\00:07:42.97
Empire, how Christians were
persecuted, during a period of
00:07:42.98\00:07:46.96
5 years, 10 years, and so on,
but that's something terrible.
00:07:47.00\00:07:50.95
And when you read the way people
at this time were persecuted
00:07:50.98\00:07:55.02
and after during
all the Middle Age.
00:07:55.05\00:07:56.85
There were good citizens,
good father, good mother,
00:07:56.88\00:08:00.55
but just because their
religion they were tortured.
00:08:00.56\00:08:04.02
You know, that was just
something we cannot just say,
00:08:04.05\00:08:08.14
Okay, that's okay, but
now it's gone. It's past.
00:08:08.17\00:08:11.53
No, it can come back!
And you never know because
00:08:11.56\00:08:15.86
human beings are always the
same, you know human beings has
00:08:15.89\00:08:19.29
no change. 300 years ago or now,
or 1,000 years ago, they are
00:08:19.32\00:08:24.24
still the same people,
still human. Same human being.
00:08:24.27\00:08:27.56
And they can react the same way.
00:08:27.59\00:08:28.76
And something
that's worth remembering,
00:08:28.79\00:08:30.94
like we Seventh Day
Adventists, we are a minority,
00:08:30.97\00:08:33.95
we're not insignificant
in the United States,
00:08:33.98\00:08:36.74
there's one million
Seventh Day Adventists,
00:08:36.75\00:08:38.36
that's a significant number.
So we're not really down on the
00:08:38.39\00:08:41.87
absolute bottom fringe of
unusual and hardly noticed
00:08:41.90\00:08:46.54
groups, but we once were,
just as Christians themselves.
00:08:46.57\00:08:51.20
And it's worth remembering
that religious liberty I think
00:08:51.23\00:08:53.45
is proven in a society by how
it relates to those very small
00:08:53.48\00:08:57.89
minorities that
are on the fringes.
00:08:57.92\00:08:59.09
Because it's very easy to
sort of think, well you know,
00:08:59.12\00:09:02.14
there's a few hundred people
that cut the heads off chickens
00:09:02.17\00:09:05.43
or something, why do we
care for them? We're okay.
00:09:05.46\00:09:07.87
But you've seen it and I've
seen it, in a majority single
00:09:07.90\00:09:12.88
religion countries, they're
comfortable to give themselves
00:09:12.91\00:09:15.11
the freedom and they think,
We've got religious freedom,
00:09:15.12\00:09:17.67
but we want to let all this go.
00:09:17.70\00:09:19.20
But also you can be sincere,
honest, be part of a majority,
00:09:19.23\00:09:23.28
and have no
information about the minority.
00:09:23.31\00:09:25.38
And just ignore totally
that you can have, or you can
00:09:25.39\00:09:29.96
have in your country, some
group who are systematically
00:09:29.99\00:09:34.54
persecuted, because
you don't know that.
00:09:34.55\00:09:36.82
And this is why it's important
to come back the principle,
00:09:36.85\00:09:41.21
to say, Hey,
religious freedom is for all.
00:09:41.24\00:09:44.12
What's some of the feedback
that you've gotten already from
00:09:44.15\00:09:47.23
public officials, when
they see this great celebration.
00:09:47.27\00:09:50.72
Oh I think that they
are very, very encouraged,
00:09:50.75\00:09:53.41
and most of the time they
give a very good speech about
00:09:53.44\00:09:56.77
religious freedom, they say,
We are happy that in our country
00:09:56.80\00:10:00.19
we protect
religious freedom for all.
00:10:00.22\00:10:03.37
And of course when officials
say that it's written and
00:10:03.40\00:10:07.99
that's something they have after
to assume, because they stood
00:10:08.02\00:10:14.11
for religious freedom,
and after or during their life
00:10:14.14\00:10:17.39
it's something
which has been said.
00:10:17.40\00:10:19.48
It's good psychology, it's
putting them on their merit
00:10:19.49\00:10:23.02
to do the good thing.
00:10:23.05\00:10:24.30
And most of them I think,
they believe it's a good thing.
00:10:24.33\00:10:29.74
You know, like in South America,
there are many countries
00:10:29.77\00:10:33.13
where now you have a
commission from the government
00:10:33.16\00:10:36.81
where they try to have religious
equality, they try to compensate
00:10:36.84\00:10:41.32
with the concord given to
the Catholic church, with some
00:10:41.35\00:10:46.81
legislation which could really
create more justice between
00:10:46.84\00:10:51.26
minorities and majorities.
And we have of course,
00:10:51.29\00:10:54.95
to work with them
and to encourage them.
00:10:54.98\00:10:57.34
And also to show that what is
happening now in Latin America
00:10:57.37\00:11:01.55
happened in the past in Italy,
in Spain, and in these two
00:11:01.58\00:11:05.64
countries, Poland, Italy, Spain,
where during long time you have
00:11:05.67\00:11:10.18
just one religion or one church.
Now they try to find, you know,
00:11:10.21\00:11:16.55
a system where
nobody really is penalized,
00:11:16.58\00:11:19.71
even if you are a minority.
And it can help other countries
00:11:19.74\00:11:23.16
to follow the
good, this good way.
00:11:23.19\00:11:25.34
Even as you described this
brings up a dynamic that I've
00:11:25.37\00:11:28.18
noticed that still exists,
that in many countries religion
00:11:28.21\00:11:31.36
is identified with the national
identity. Different religions.
00:11:31.39\00:11:36.14
And it's very easy to see a call
for religious freedom for some
00:11:36.18\00:11:41.14
outside group is really an
outside power requiring that.
00:11:41.17\00:11:44.60
I think, for what I've observed
with these celebrations,
00:11:44.63\00:11:47.40
they're nationally generated,
you come as an outside religious
00:11:47.43\00:11:52.28
liberty leader. But
you're not doing it,
00:11:52.29\00:11:54.51
you come to participate
with them, and I think that's
00:11:54.54\00:11:56.47
very good for a home grown
national identity movement for
00:11:56.50\00:12:01.67
religious liberty. We
want it, this is not someone
00:12:01.68\00:12:04.45
else, it's not some
envoy from the United States,
00:12:04.48\00:12:07.33
saying, You must have it! It's
the people who are saying this.
00:12:07.36\00:12:09.95
You know in the history of
every country you have people,
00:12:09.96\00:12:14.99
heroic people, who give their
life for the religious freedom.
00:12:15.02\00:12:18.82
And we just have to recognize
them, we don't want to import
00:12:18.85\00:12:23.43
something else, we just
want to recognize those in their
00:12:23.46\00:12:27.58
countries who
really defended, protected,
00:12:27.59\00:12:30.66
religious freedom for all.
And sometimes they lost their
00:12:30.69\00:12:34.09
life for that.
They gave their life.
00:12:34.34\00:12:35.91
There's a lot at stake here,
it's not just a happy time,
00:12:35.94\00:12:38.26
which is the celebration is,
behind this is the most serious
00:12:38.27\00:12:42.23
principle, life
and death issues,
00:12:42.26\00:12:44.76
and people have given
their life in the past for it.
00:12:44.79\00:12:47.41
Well, you can tell from this
discussion that we're dealing
00:12:47.44\00:12:51.08
with very important issues,
00:12:51.11\00:12:52.66
and I would like
for you to stay with us,
00:12:52.70\00:12:54.00
be back after the break,
And we'll talk more about
00:12:54.03\00:12:56.43
religion and
festivals of religious freedom.
00:12:56.46\00:12:59.60
A long time to do anything,
much less publish a magazine.
00:13:11.05\00:13:14.56
But this year, Liberty, a
Seventh Day Adventist voice
00:13:14.59\00:13:18.39
of religious freedom, celebrates
100 years of doing what it does
00:13:18.40\00:13:22.36
best; collecting, analyzing,
and reporting the ebb and flow
00:13:22.39\00:13:26.63
of religious
expression around the world.
00:13:26.66\00:13:28.58
Issue after issue, Liberty has
taken on the tough assignments.
00:13:28.61\00:13:33.23
Tracking down
threats to religious freedom,
00:13:33.26\00:13:35.36
and exposing the work of
the devil in every corner of
00:13:35.39\00:13:38.22
the globe.
Governmental interference,
00:13:38.25\00:13:40.48
personal attacks,
corporate assaults,
00:13:40.51\00:13:42.71
even religious freedom issues
sequestered within the church
00:13:42.74\00:13:45.79
community itself have been
clearly and honestly exposed.
00:13:45.82\00:13:49.37
Liberty exists for one purpose,
to help God's people maintain
00:13:49.40\00:13:54.26
that all important
separation of church and state,
00:13:54.29\00:13:57.20
while recognizing the dangers
inherent in such a struggle.
00:13:57.23\00:14:00.57
During the past century, Liberty
has experienced challenges
00:14:00.60\00:14:04.54
of it's own, but
it remains on the job.
00:14:04.57\00:14:06.99
Thanks to the inspired
leadership of a long line of
00:14:07.02\00:14:10.26
dedicated Adventist
editors, three of whom represent
00:14:10.29\00:14:12.84
almost half of the publication's
existence, and the foresight
00:14:12.87\00:14:16.26
of a little
woman from New England.
00:14:16.29\00:14:17.95
Religious freedom isn't
just about political machines
00:14:22.63\00:14:26.06
and cultural
prejudices, it's about people
00:14:26.09\00:14:29.05
fighting for the right to
serve the God they love as their
00:14:29.08\00:14:33.01
hearts and the
Holy Spirit dictate.
00:14:33.02\00:14:35.56
Thanks to the prayers
and generous support of
00:14:35.59\00:14:38.17
Seventh Day
Adventists everywhere,
00:14:38.20\00:14:39.92
Liberty will continue to
accomplish it's work providing
00:14:39.93\00:14:43.27
timely information,
spirit filled inspiration,
00:14:43.30\00:14:45.79
and heaven sent encouragement
to all who long to live and
00:14:45.80\00:14:50.11
work in a world bound
together by God ordained bonds
00:14:50.14\00:14:54.65
of religious freedom.
00:14:54.68\00:14:57.05
Welcome back to the program.
00:15:03.92\00:15:05.25
Before the break I was
talking with Dr. John Graz
00:15:05.28\00:15:08.21
about the festivals of
religious freedom that have been
00:15:08.24\00:15:11.61
successfully held in several
countries now, and you just
00:15:11.64\00:15:14.70
had the first international
one right? In Lima, Peru.
00:15:14.73\00:15:17.78
The first world.
Because we hope to have a world
00:15:17.81\00:15:21.79
festival every five years.
The next one we hope to have
00:15:21.82\00:15:25.94
more than 50,000 people.
00:15:25.97\00:15:27.70
These are huge
gatherings of people.
00:15:27.73\00:15:29.44
I was in Santa Domingo with you
recently where we had one with
00:15:29.47\00:15:32.91
15,000, and that
was overwhelming.
00:15:32.94\00:15:35.36
In Bogota too, 15,000
was totally unexpected and
00:15:35.39\00:15:38.60
after we had a congress and the
president of the country came.
00:15:38.63\00:15:41.97
You know the president of
the country of Columbia came and
00:15:42.00\00:15:45.44
spent one hour, more
than one hour with us.
00:15:45.47\00:15:47.98
This is always gratifying
to know that the authorities
00:15:48.01\00:15:50.30
recognize the importance.
You know you could say,
00:15:50.33\00:15:52.36
if you were cynical
like I am sometimes,
00:15:52.39\00:15:54.33
Well there's a lot of people
there and a politician couldn't
00:15:54.36\00:15:56.80
stay away, but this is a
teaching moment for them.
00:15:56.83\00:16:00.50
Even if they are just agreeable
to go where there's a lot of
00:16:00.53\00:16:03.81
people, for them to see
people so excited about this
00:16:03.84\00:16:07.64
baseline freedom and to see that
their citizenry believe in this.
00:16:07.67\00:16:11.20
Don't forget that there
is also some risk you know,
00:16:11.23\00:16:14.55
there are also some
risk for the politicians,
00:16:14.58\00:16:17.12
especially head of state
or minister, to attend such a
00:16:17.13\00:16:20.15
meeting, because probably
some people don't like that.
00:16:20.18\00:16:23.48
And it means you may get some
support but you may also lose
00:16:23.51\00:16:28.22
support. I think
every time I see a
00:16:28.25\00:16:30.65
politician or member of the
government or head of state,
00:16:30.68\00:16:34.09
attending to our meeting I
think that they are courageous.
00:16:34.12\00:16:37.40
Because still you know that's
just a small, small minority.
00:16:37.43\00:16:41.23
I mean you can lose a lot of
vote just because you went to
00:16:41.26\00:16:44.49
support. They
have to be somewhere
00:16:44.52\00:16:47.04
convinced that
that's the right way.
00:16:47.07\00:16:49.43
Sure, and their the leaders
that we want to encourage,
00:16:49.46\00:16:52.34
those that sense principle not
just doing the expedient thing
00:16:52.37\00:16:56.45
to rule, regardless of the
sensibilities of the minorities.
00:16:56.48\00:16:59.77
Before the break though we were
getting on to something that
00:16:59.80\00:17:03.19
I have strong opinions on,
I know you've observed this.
00:17:03.22\00:17:06.09
With the collapse of the soviet
system, and in some ways the end
00:17:06.12\00:17:11.22
of imperialism, not just,
you know they use to rail,
00:17:11.25\00:17:15.13
the communists use to rail
against western imperialists.
00:17:15.16\00:17:17.63
But in reality I think Communist
system was it's own sort of
00:17:17.64\00:17:20.42
empire. But with
the collapse of that
00:17:20.45\00:17:23.40
I've seen and still observe,
basically a rise of, sort of,
00:17:23.81\00:17:27.98
national religious identity.
00:17:28.01\00:17:30.55
Yes, that which is
normal in many ways you know,
00:17:30.58\00:17:35.53
It's a reversion
to a pre-modern era.
00:17:35.56\00:17:39.63
Yeah, all these
countries were very religious
00:17:39.66\00:17:41.83
before the Communists
came. And during centuries and
00:17:41.86\00:17:45.18
centuries one church was
very close to the government
00:17:45.21\00:17:50.45
because they had this
conception of symphony,
00:17:50.48\00:17:54.43
you have to be together to help
a people to grow and to build
00:17:54.46\00:17:58.70
a better world,
a better society.
00:17:58.73\00:18:00.77
And the church bring the values,
the moral values, you know,
00:18:00.80\00:18:05.28
and the government
bring management and so on.
00:18:05.31\00:18:07.95
And being together they
can really help a people
00:18:07.98\00:18:11.12
and do a very good job.
But of course they are also,
00:18:11.15\00:18:14.91
every time you're connected with
the power there's also some deal
00:18:14.92\00:18:20.00
and sometimes it can go well,
and sometimes it can go bad.
00:18:20.03\00:18:23.19
Especially when you have
people disagreeing with that.
00:18:23.22\00:18:28.97
You know it means if you
disagree with the main church
00:18:29.00\00:18:32.78
you are
persecuted by the government.
00:18:32.81\00:18:35.40
Your disagreeing with
your country and your people.
00:18:35.43\00:18:38.84
It's really a
crime against society,
00:18:38.87\00:18:41.65
not just a denial
of the major faith.
00:18:41.68\00:18:44.45
This is why I think that is
not a good combination because
00:18:44.48\00:18:48.63
human beings are too
much inclined to use the power
00:18:48.66\00:18:52.65
for their own benefit.
It means if I am a religious
00:18:52.66\00:18:56.99
leader and you are my good
friend, but you are the head
00:18:57.02\00:19:00.74
of the state or you
have a lot of power,
00:19:00.77\00:19:03.84
you know we can exchange,
you know you can ask me,
00:19:03.87\00:19:07.21
Okay, help me, I want to be
re-elected. How can you help me?
00:19:07.24\00:19:11.26
Or I want to help you
because you are a good friend,
00:19:11.29\00:19:14.46
but now I also have
some problem can you help me?
00:19:14.49\00:19:17.17
And you can put the
state in the service,
00:19:17.20\00:19:22.12
in the service of a
religion of a church,
00:19:22.15\00:19:25.36
and that is very dangerous.
00:19:25.39\00:19:27.18
Well that's certainly the model
of the middle ages isn't it?
00:19:27.21\00:19:29.42
Middle ages and
the Christian empire.
00:19:29.45\00:19:31.24
It became the
Roman Catholic church.
00:19:31.27\00:19:33.06
The Christian empire too.
00:19:33.09\00:19:34.38
But this is the interesting
reality that in this modern era,
00:19:34.41\00:19:38.33
with the evolution of Communism,
it still exists but not as that
00:19:38.36\00:19:42.92
political block, we are seeing
a reversion to a past model,
00:19:42.95\00:19:49.74
certainly in many of
those Eastern Orthodox,
00:19:49.77\00:19:53.14
Eastern European countries.
The Eastern Orthodox church
00:19:53.17\00:19:55.37
is now sort of close ranks
with society and the government.
00:19:55.40\00:19:58.63
but it's other countries
too right? Southeast Asia.
00:19:58.66\00:20:01.93
Yeah, we can see this certainly.
Where the Buddhists are the
00:20:01.96\00:20:06.66
majority, you know you
try to have more links.
00:20:06.69\00:20:10.10
Even in some countries where
the church, sometime you know,
00:20:10.13\00:20:13.58
it appears for those who are
in the minority that they have
00:20:13.61\00:20:16.70
strong link but when you talk
with them you see that they have
00:20:16.73\00:20:20.12
also problem with the state.
A religion can be the majority
00:20:20.15\00:20:24.70
in one country and be in
some way close to the state but
00:20:24.73\00:20:29.14
have also a lot of tensions.
I remember being in Mongolia
00:20:29.17\00:20:33.46
talking with Buddhist leaders
and they say, We want to be free
00:20:33.49\00:20:37.24
too, we also need
religious freedom for us.
00:20:37.25\00:20:39.99
But I thought that
you were the majority?
00:20:40.02\00:20:41.70
Yeah, but being the majority
you can also be persecuted
00:20:41.73\00:20:44.66
by the state. It
means you never know exactly
00:20:44.69\00:20:48.01
how it works, even if you
have the impression that church
00:20:48.04\00:20:52.03
and state are very close,
they may be a competitor too.
00:20:52.06\00:20:56.09
You may also have a
big conflict between.
00:20:56.12\00:20:59.23
We should avoid to be too
much simplistic about that.
00:20:59.26\00:21:03.51
There is, theorically speaking,
when you are in charge of
00:21:03.54\00:21:08.34
a country and you see that you
are the manager of the country
00:21:08.37\00:21:12.49
but there are many
things you cannot do.
00:21:12.52\00:21:14.14
You cannot educate people to be
good, to be honest, and so on.
00:21:14.17\00:21:17.99
You are very happy to have
a kind of system or a religion
00:21:18.02\00:21:22.77
being to do that.
And naturally speaking,
00:21:22.80\00:21:25.84
you will try to have some links,
00:21:25.87\00:21:28.95
some connections,
some deal with it.
00:21:28.99\00:21:30.95
Well, I think what you're
describing, as you said it
00:21:30.98\00:21:33.44
I thought, in some ways in
the United States we saw that
00:21:33.47\00:21:36.44
several years ago, to
outside observers it seemed like
00:21:36.47\00:21:40.22
the last administration had
close ranks with conservative
00:21:40.25\00:21:45.65
religious forces, and I
think on many levels they had,
00:21:45.66\00:21:50.06
but then we found in the
middle of it some of those
00:21:50.09\00:21:53.52
conservatives felt that they'd
been used by the government.
00:21:53.55\00:21:55.89
That behind closed doors they
were sort of laughing at the
00:21:55.92\00:21:58.16
conservatives. They
just adopted their agenda
00:21:58.19\00:22:00.36
to get their support.
And what you're summing up of
00:22:00.39\00:22:03.12
the Buddhists in a predominately
Buddhist country could be true.
00:22:03.13\00:22:06.25
The government recognizing that
that society is uniformly that
00:22:06.28\00:22:10.52
religion co-opt it for
their political purpose.
00:22:10.55\00:22:13.67
So it's true, it's not
necessarily right to say
00:22:13.70\00:22:17.93
it's a total union
of church and state.
00:22:17.96\00:22:20.83
But generally speaking I think
that when you see this cozy
00:22:20.86\00:22:24.17
relationship between a single
national religion it does mean
00:22:24.20\00:22:28.29
bad things for
those on the outside.
00:22:28.32\00:22:30.64
Minorities and religions that
represents, in the eyes of the
00:22:30.67\00:22:35.79
society and the government,
maybe a foreign influence.
00:22:35.82\00:22:38.60
Also, which kind of
happened also in some countries,
00:22:38.63\00:22:43.57
that where the majority
religion has really always been
00:22:43.60\00:22:47.28
the religion of the
country, of the people, during
00:22:47.31\00:22:50.30
centuries and centuries.
Then you have some other group
00:22:50.33\00:22:54.49
coming, which came later
on, then you have new groups
00:22:54.52\00:23:00.48
and these are the groups that
come from different countries.
00:23:00.51\00:23:03.97
And of course they are seen as
foreigners, not really as being
00:23:04.00\00:23:08.85
part of the culture.
And especially if they come
00:23:08.88\00:23:12.95
with traditions and
culture from another country.
00:23:12.98\00:23:16.65
I'm glad you got to that because
that's a burden that I have.
00:23:16.68\00:23:19.67
We need to separate a religion
from the culture, perhaps of the
00:23:19.70\00:23:23.66
proponents, certainly Western
missionaries probably didn't do
00:23:23.69\00:23:27.67
a long term service to
their faith by bringing with it
00:23:27.70\00:23:30.53
the trappings of Westernization.
00:23:30.56\00:23:32.31
Which is interesting about
this concept, when most of the
00:23:32.34\00:23:38.30
colonized countries were
decolonized, many observers
00:23:38.33\00:23:45.24
during this time thought that
Christianity will disappear.
00:23:45.27\00:23:48.87
Why? Because Christianity have
been imposed to these people.
00:23:48.90\00:23:53.63
And now the European and the
American, European especially,
00:23:53.66\00:23:57.64
will leave, and why of course
should you need an Anglican
00:23:57.67\00:24:00.80
church in Nigeria and so
on. Why do you need a Lutheran
00:24:00.83\00:24:03.72
church in South
Africa? You don't need!
00:24:03.75\00:24:06.31
These people will leave and
their religion will be out too.
00:24:06.34\00:24:11.91
But what happened? It
was just the opposite!
00:24:11.94\00:24:14.50
European left Africa but
Christianity stay in Africa
00:24:14.53\00:24:19.84
with all the different religion.
And now Europe is more and more
00:24:19.85\00:24:23.83
secularized, but people
from Africa comes to Europe
00:24:23.86\00:24:27.31
and build new churches!
00:24:27.34\00:24:29.74
That's a great
social and religious irony
00:24:29.77\00:24:33.14
of the modern age.
It speaks a lot I think,
00:24:33.17\00:24:36.79
in Christianity it speaks a
lot to the inherent need for
00:24:36.82\00:24:39.75
what we're
offering on behalf of God.
00:24:39.78\00:24:41.84
But also speaks to human nature.
That people, with children even,
00:24:41.87\00:24:47.46
you know they can come
to the parents for love,
00:24:47.49\00:24:49.28
but tough love you
say, Do it for yourself.
00:24:49.31\00:24:51.62
They might succeed much better.
00:24:51.65\00:24:53.39
You know look in
Africa which is interesting,
00:24:53.42\00:24:56.00
you have a national African
religion or Christian churches,
00:24:56.03\00:25:00.82
African Christian churches.
We could have thought that after
00:25:00.85\00:25:05.27
Europeans left Africa,
most of the churches will
00:25:05.28\00:25:09.41
become Africa national
churches. But not necessarily!
00:25:09.42\00:25:13.61
The majority are still the
traditional church which was
00:25:13.64\00:25:18.82
imported from Europe. It
means Anglican, Lutheran,
00:25:18.85\00:25:22.18
Reform, and so on, they
are still there and they grow.
00:25:22.19\00:25:25.45
And we could make a good
argument that the society that
00:25:25.48\00:25:30.53
their growing in has a more
basic need for the great truths
00:25:30.56\00:25:34.86
and principles of Christianity.
And that's why it's so strong.
00:25:34.87\00:25:39.43
Where in the West we've
sort of compromised ourselves.
00:25:39.46\00:25:41.87
I think most of the government,
except when the country became
00:25:41.90\00:25:44.90
Communist and the
government were fighting,
00:25:44.93\00:25:47.28
even when the government became
Communist, most of the African
00:25:47.31\00:25:51.85
country the government did
not really persecute Christians,
00:25:51.86\00:25:55.91
it was too strong.
But most of the government
00:25:55.94\00:25:58.35
recognize that churches, and
most councils, needs religion.
00:25:58.38\00:26:04.29
An important
component of society.
00:26:04.32\00:26:07.60
And they try to avoid
to persecute, or to make
00:26:07.63\00:26:14.29
oppression to them. They
just receive that as a good
00:26:14.32\00:26:17.77
thing for the
society and for the country.
00:26:17.80\00:26:19.57
And we can be grateful for that.
I think it is, we are seeing the
00:26:19.58\00:26:23.54
the wonderful pay off of
the evangelization of Africa.
00:26:23.57\00:26:26.36
Economically
there's some very bad news,
00:26:26.39\00:26:29.19
but spiritually
Africa is aspiring I think.
00:26:29.23\00:26:32.02
And you know I talk about
the festival of Leon d'oro,
00:26:32.05\00:26:35.06
just imagine a stadium
with more than 40,000 people,
00:26:35.09\00:26:38.89
and people coming from the
city. They had to walk sometimes
00:26:38.92\00:26:46.06
three hours to get
on time in the stadium.
00:26:46.09\00:26:49.17
It shows how people in Africa
are committed to their faiths.
00:26:49.20\00:26:53.41
Not too many months ago
I traveled through parts of
00:26:54.72\00:26:56.91
Europe with my family in the car
and we seemed to naturally end
00:26:56.94\00:27:01.81
up heading toward Rome.
I'll never forget driving toward
00:27:01.84\00:27:05.29
Rome, the Eternal
City, as they say.
00:27:05.32\00:27:07.73
Coming over the hills
and winding down a road
00:27:07.76\00:27:10.90
toward the great city, and then
I realized we were following an
00:27:10.93\00:27:14.32
old Roman road. They
use to say that all roads
00:27:14.35\00:27:17.66
lead to Rome, and around modern
day Rome that's still true.
00:27:17.69\00:27:21.56
The roads radiate out
like spokes on a wheel
00:27:21.59\00:27:24.67
because it was the center of
the then known civilized world.
00:27:24.70\00:27:28.14
In many ways the religious world
is still following that old norm
00:27:28.15\00:27:32.23
and as we see things
like the offer of Rome
00:27:32.26\00:27:36.01
toward the Church of England,
to embrace some of their
00:27:36.04\00:27:38.85
dissident priests and
give them a special status,
00:27:38.88\00:27:41.76
we see prophecy fulfilling,
we see the reformation
00:27:41.79\00:27:45.19
unraveling, and cause for those
that value religious freedom
00:27:45.22\00:27:49.11
and religious integrity, to look
closely, something is happening.
00:27:49.14\00:27:54.43
Definitely we see prophecy
fulfilling before our eyes.
00:27:54.46\00:27:59.11
Definitely religious
liberty and religious expression
00:27:59.14\00:28:02.54
is something to
cherish and guard carefully.
00:28:02.57\00:28:05.29
For Liberty Insider
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:28:07.83\00:28:10.58