Welcome to Liberty Insider.
This is the program that brings
00:00:21.84\00:00:24.69
you up to date news, views
and discussion on religious
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liberty issues. My
name is Lincoln Steed,
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editor of Liberty Magazine,
and my guest on this program is
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Matt McMearty, you
are a graduate of Bela,
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school of Church-State
Studies in Waco, Texas.
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What else can I tell
the viewers about you, Matt?
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I know you have a strong
background in religious liberty
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issues.
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I was a pastor in
Michigan for about twelve years
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and I've also worked for
the Pacific Union Conference
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a little over a year.
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Of Seventh Day Adventists?
Legislative Adventist, correct.
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Good, and you and I
have discussed a lot of the
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current issues and I know
you are really up to speed on
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things. Now
there's an issue that has
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concerned Seventh Day Adventists
almost from the beginning
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of the church. In
the mid 1800s when
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Seventh Day Adventism began
to be formed as a church group,
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as opposed to Millerites
and the whole prophetic revival
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in the United States.
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It was a great battle
between labor and capitol.
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And not too many people
remember the history then,
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but the Pinkertons were a
private police force hired by
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big business. The
robber barons to keep the
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workers in line. And
the workers didn't want to
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stay in line, and they
were organizing their own
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affiliations and blocks
where they had some bargaining
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power against the employers,
and there was violence.
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The view of the church
today is a little bit nuanced,
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but still remains to be largely
suspicious and cautionary
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on the union
situation. Has it changed?
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The unions once violent and
problematic to religious freedom
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are they okay
now? What's happening?
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Violence and unionism to a large
extent has more or less fallen
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by the wayside. But
based on the principles
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in which unionism is based
on, it uses the issue of force
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through using a strike, and
given the right circumstances
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in the future, violence
could very easily return
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based on those principles.
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Yes of course, the United States
at the moment, unionism still is
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apparently weak
following the Reagan years.
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I can remember some at
the last union hold outs were
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restricted, and even when I
first came as a young fellow
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to the United States,
Jimmy Hoffa was in his,
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both in his
heyday and his decline,
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so that era
seems to have passed.
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The United States I don't think,
McCarthyism not withstanding,
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has ever really seen the
overt socialism of unionism,
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which you can see in
Australia, for example.
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I mean seriously, socialists
at times are even superficially
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Communists.
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But there is a suspicion,
by not just Seventh Day
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Adventists, protestants
in the United States,
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that unionism is somewhat
antithetical to religious
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expression and to true freedom.
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In some sense that we can
say generally that may be true,
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I think the thing that still
remains true of unionism is
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it is prone to corruption
and it also enters into
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political issues,
that a lot of people,
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not even Adventists,
would have difficulty in
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supporting a union where
it's taken an ideological stand
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on issues that are very
important to them personally.
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And that they are having to
pay for that to happen when it's
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opposed to their
own personal beliefs.
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And that is an
important part of it.
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Ours is religious.
Just like tax payers,
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People object to paying
taxes that support some of our
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government activity that is
antithetical to their personal
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views. And it's a
more narrow argument
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in the workplace, if
you are then forced to pay
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union dues and it indulges
in activities that you are
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embarrassed or troubled
by, then it is a matter of real
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freedom. The
Liberty Magazine promotion
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for 2010 features a
video and testimony of a woman
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in Canada, Manitoba Canada,
Charlene Harwood is her name
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she happens to be the wife of
a Seventh Day Adventist pastor.
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But more pertinent to the story
is she's a nurse who has worked
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in different places around
Canada, different provinces,
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But when she and her
husband moved to Manitoba,
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he was transferred, she
attempted to gain a union
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exemption, because
of her long standing
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personal stance and the
recommendation of the church.
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And, man, did she have
trouble! As her video tells her
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supporters in quite some detail.
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And at first it was thought it
would go to a high court hearing
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but it turned out to
be an arbitration hearing,
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but still as rigorous as any,
but it didn't set a precedent.
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But the argument
sharpened and sharpened,
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and the union representatives
demanded to know what her
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church position was. Not
just what her stance was,
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they understood that,
she didn't want to join
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a union.
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They and the government said,
we can only really accept that
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if your church has a definitive
view against unionism.
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The Seventh Day Adventist church
has a position in terms of the
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historically
opposing membership in unions.
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But it is a position that is
not hard and fast or becomes an
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issue of being disfellowshipped,
or in the Catholic sense of
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being excommunicated.
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Now yes, and of course Seventh
Day Adventists disfellowship
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is just you are no longer in
agreement with the membership
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and your name is
removed. It's not the same as
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excommunicating. It
removes you from the
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possibility of salvation on
the authority of that church.
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But no, it has never been a
test of fellowship, we call it,
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or a test of faith.
But its been a consistent
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recommendation. And
Ellen White, the co-founder
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and visionary
prophetess in early Adventism,
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was quite plain. I
don't have her statement in
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front of me but she said
something to the affect that
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anyone that understands
the prophecy of these times
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could never join themselves
to unionism, it's antithetical.
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So we're clear that we're
not dogmatic, never tried to be
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dogmatic with our followers,
with our fellow members.
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And so Charlene Harwood found
herself between a bit of a rock
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and a hard place,
where she was putting this
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position out but they were
not accepting that it was her
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church's view.
And she didn't want to
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misrepresent the church.
Then they pointed to another
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country, where I come from,
Australia, where they don't
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officially support unionism,
but they don't oppose it so
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openly, and on occasion would
even pay union dues as a gift.
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And the unions have
interpreted that as support,
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active support. Which
might surprise some of the
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Seventh Day
Adventist administrators.
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That's true here in
the United States as well,
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people do get to pay to a
charity of a mutual choice.
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Ah yes, that's a
provision for the individual.
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It can't be a charity that
somehow is politically opposed
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to unions, or whatever. Or
a charity that might in some
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sense be contrary to Adventist
mission, it has to be something
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mutually understood.
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Yeah I think what they were
aware of was an exact amount
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equal to the dues paid
to the union, as a donation.
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But anyhow, she had a
strong argument in the end,
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that she did. Very
abruptly was given the
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accommodation, but
no precedent was set.
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And we've put this video
out because I think there is
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evidence and structural
argument that union membership
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is going to be much more
important and a testing for
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religious
accommodation in the workplace
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then it has been recently.
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Well, just like you mentioned
earlier here in our discussion,
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under Republican administrations
the role of unions is more
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constrained, through
executive policies especially.
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However, now that we have
both a Democratic congress
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as well as a
Democratic president,
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we have a situation where
an atmosphere is favorable,
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at least legislatively,
and in terms of executive
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policy, that will favor unions.
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While the stronger unions become
under these kind of conditions
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the more difficult it is for
us as believers, as Adventists,
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to exercise our religious
freedoms and our religious
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beliefs, without being
tied into something that we are
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opposed from a
religious perspective.
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And the unions after all,
really are based on the group,
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the block, what's
best for the block of wood?
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They're really not set up
to look after the rights of the
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individual, curiously enough.
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In general, that may be
true but in some specific cases
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in at least my brief experience
in dealing with some issues,
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with people who had union
problems, the unions will work
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on behalf of you to help you
with your rights or situations.
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Yeah, I was just talking
structurally, but I have seen
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it ever since certainly
since I've been associated with
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Liberty Magazine, and
there are myriad workplace
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accommodation cases
that come up every year,
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some at conference level
but they work their way up
00:10:00.59\00:10:03.74
to national attention. And
very, very often I've noted
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that even though they
don't involve the unions,
00:10:08.21\00:10:10.88
many of our Seventh Day
Adventists that have these
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problems are not union members,
the union will be their ally for
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them to get the accommodations.
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So it would be wrong to say
that we have a current running
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battle with unionism. We
have a deep distrust of the
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whole structure, not
what they are currently doing.
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And our position on unions
is not necessarily historically
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based, it historically has been
defined from biblical principles
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of the employer or the
business owner is our neighbor,
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and the idea of striking in mass
with others against the neighbor
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and is not necessarily
dealing in good faith.
00:10:51.87\00:10:55.72
And it's trying to act
on a principle of force,
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to force the business owner to
the table, to force a bargain,
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so to speak. And
that works contrary to
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what many Adventists cherish in
their heart that we're not out
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to make enemies, but we
don't want to be part of
00:11:10.73\00:11:15.31
making enemies either.
00:11:15.34\00:11:16.71
Well, and the other
thing that concerns Adventists,
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thinking very directly but
it's fair to say it to a wider
00:11:20.55\00:11:24.55
audience, that
this does go to what
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Adventists, through the
spokesperson of Ellen White,
00:11:26.94\00:11:30.14
felt about the end of times.
00:11:30.17\00:11:31.80
As society breaks down and
some of the business tendencies
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work their way, in
Revelation I think it talks
00:11:37.63\00:11:41.13
about worker's
wage held back by fraud,
00:11:41.16\00:11:43.11
but Ellen White used to say
that they were confederacies
00:11:43.14\00:11:46.01
confederacies of evil. Some
of us use the qualifier evil.
00:11:46.04\00:11:49.87
But confederacies and bundles,
so that the bundling of like
00:11:49.90\00:11:54.28
groups, and she says bundles
together for the burning.
00:11:54.31\00:11:56.31
And these bundles really pull
together people of like minded
00:11:56.32\00:12:01.06
restrict them to
that state of mind.
00:12:01.09\00:12:03.42
So unionism, though it
may have had a good beginning,
00:12:03.45\00:12:06.43
could function to restrict
someone's practice of religion.
00:12:06.46\00:12:09.94
I think that's the
underlying suspicion,
00:12:09.97\00:12:12.92
that's being born out in fact.
00:12:12.95\00:12:15.49
You know this is an interesting
discussion, and I'd like
00:12:15.52\00:12:18.16
continue it, after we
take a bit of a break.
00:12:18.19\00:12:21.63
But before we go to the break
I want to make a connection
00:12:21.66\00:12:24.95
that we can
discuss a little after.
00:12:24.98\00:12:26.31
In another program we
talked about the papal document,
00:12:26.34\00:12:32.07
encyclical, that came in not
to long ago, Charity and Truth.
00:12:32.10\00:12:41.94
Now the pope spoke
directly there about unionism.
00:12:41.95\00:12:45.65
It's been said that he was
supporting unionism or advancing
00:12:45.66\00:12:48.98
it, that remains to be seen.
00:12:49.01\00:12:50.31
But he spoke descriptively
about the challenge to unionism.
00:12:50.34\00:12:54.36
We'll be back
after a short break.
00:12:54.37\00:12:56.17
One hundred years.
00:13:04.74\00:13:06.07
A long time to do anything,
much less publish a magazine.
00:13:07.88\00:13:09.91
But this year, Liberty,
the Seventh Day Adventist voice
00:13:09.94\00:13:13.53
of religious freedom celebrates
One hundred years of doing
00:13:13.56\00:13:17.13
what it does best:
collecting, analyzing, and
00:13:17.16\00:13:20.45
reporting the ebb and flow
of religious expression around
00:13:20.48\00:13:23.45
the world.
00:13:23.48\00:13:24.45
Issue after issue, Liberty has
taken on the tough assignments,
00:13:24.46\00:13:28.35
tracking down
threats to religious freedom,
00:13:28.38\00:13:30.69
and exposing the work of
the devil in every corner of the
00:13:30.72\00:13:33.74
globe.
00:13:33.77\00:13:34.74
Governmental
interference, personal attacks,
00:13:34.75\00:13:36.95
corporate assaults,
even religious freedom issues
00:13:36.98\00:13:39.96
sequestered within the
church community itself,
00:13:39.99\00:13:41.96
have been clearly
and honestly exposed.
00:13:41.99\00:13:44.43
Liberty exists for one purpose,
to help God's people maintain
00:13:44.44\00:13:49.63
that all important
separation of church and state,
00:13:49.66\00:13:52.44
well recognizing the dangers
inherent in such a struggle.
00:13:52.47\00:13:56.78
During the past century Liberty
has experienced challenges
00:13:56.81\00:13:59.75
of its own, but it remains on
the job thanks to the inspired
00:13:59.78\00:14:03.36
leadership of a long line
of dedicated Adventist editors.
00:14:03.39\00:14:06.96
Three of whom represent
almost half of the publications
00:14:06.99\00:14:09.50
existence, and the foresight of
a little woman from New England.
00:14:09.51\00:14:13.36
One hundred years of struggle.
00:14:13.39\00:14:15.49
One hundred years of victories.
00:14:15.52\00:14:17.77
Religious freedom isn't
just about political machines
00:14:17.80\00:14:21.18
and cultural
prejudices, it's about people
00:14:21.21\00:14:24.40
fighting for the right
to serve the God they love
00:14:24.43\00:14:27.66
as their hearts and
the Holy Spirit dictate.
00:14:27.69\00:14:30.80
Thanks to the prayers
and generous support of
00:14:30.83\00:14:33.52
Seventh Day
Adventists everywhere,
00:14:33.55\00:14:35.31
Liberty will continue to
accomplish its work of providing
00:14:35.34\00:14:38.51
timely information,
spirit filled inspiration,
00:14:38.52\00:14:41.14
and heaven sent encouragement
to all that long to live and
00:14:41.17\00:14:45.50
work in a world bound together
by the God ordained bonds
00:14:45.53\00:14:49.89
of religious freedom.
00:14:49.92\00:14:52.73
Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
00:15:00.48\00:15:02.57
Before the break we
were talking about unions.
00:15:02.60\00:15:04.74
By the way, my guest on
this program is Matt McMearty,
00:15:04.77\00:15:08.47
and before the
break we were talking.
00:15:08.50\00:15:10.23
I was discussing with
you, Matt, about unionism
00:15:10.26\00:15:13.34
we've discussed
some elements of it,
00:15:13.37\00:15:16.31
including a video that Liberty's
come out with about a woman
00:15:16.34\00:15:19.83
in Canada that's
have union problems.
00:15:19.86\00:15:22.39
It's not
confined to one country.
00:15:22.42\00:15:24.46
But I threw in an
illusion in the papal encyclical
00:15:24.47\00:15:29.97
on charity, is an illusion
that the union prerogatives.
00:15:30.00\00:15:33.78
And I don't think the
pope is overstating it,
00:15:33.81\00:15:36.56
but of course
this history behind it,
00:15:36.59\00:15:38.12
we know his predecessor united
with solidarity and that lead to
00:15:38.15\00:15:42.13
bringing down communism.
00:15:42.16\00:15:43.13
But he stated the obvious I
think, in the economic collapse
00:15:43.14\00:15:46.75
of September '09 the workers
position has been weakened
00:15:46.78\00:15:51.60
a little. So you
could argue that unionism
00:15:51.63\00:15:55.87
needs some help, it's
not dealing from strength.
00:15:55.90\00:15:59.50
But of course neither is one
single worker in the workplace
00:15:59.53\00:16:02.47
dealing from a
position of strength.
00:16:02.50\00:16:04.00
Charity and Truth does
mention late in the document
00:16:04.03\00:16:17.11
about the role of unions.
And its main points are that
00:16:17.14\00:16:20.91
unions have a role to
play as a mediating structure
00:16:20.94\00:16:24.67
in terms of negotiating
between on behalf of the workers
00:16:24.70\00:16:29.59
and their rights, not
just their individual rights
00:16:29.62\00:16:32.73
as workers but their corporate
rights as a working force.
00:16:32.76\00:16:37.15
And that between them and the
owners or management or whatever
00:16:37.18\00:16:43.38
and so it sees that there
has been a trend politically in
00:16:43.41\00:16:47.81
nations where, such as
here in the United States,
00:16:47.84\00:16:50.16
unions have been more limited
or constrained through laws,
00:16:50.17\00:16:54.21
and therefore unionism has
been on a decline in numbers
00:16:54.24\00:16:59.11
in the last 10,
15, maybe 20 years.
00:16:59.14\00:17:03.79
And so what we have here
is, it's kind of a little bit of
00:17:03.82\00:17:08.54
an encouragement for
governments to give unions some
00:17:08.57\00:17:14.20
leeway and wiggle room to
do what they're supposed to do,
00:17:14.23\00:17:22.21
and not be so
constrained about that.
00:17:22.24\00:17:24.76
And there is some legislation
that is being potentially being
00:17:24.79\00:17:30.44
considered in congress,
now that we have Democratic
00:17:30.48\00:17:32.58
house senate.
00:17:32.61\00:17:34.91
This is the card
check legislation.
00:17:34.94\00:17:35.91
Yes, and maybe you
want to say something.
00:17:35.92\00:17:38.47
No, I look to you
as an expert guest.
00:17:38.50\00:17:42.52
You know how would you
characterize this card check
00:17:42.55\00:17:44.56
thing? Because I have an
article coming out in Liberty
00:17:44.59\00:17:47.48
from a lawyer
from Regent University,
00:17:47.49\00:17:51.82
arguing forcibly against it,
that this will limit the rights,
00:17:51.85\00:17:55.64
he believes, of workers.
00:17:55.67\00:17:57.58
And in some sense it is very
true because, it goes like this,
00:17:57.61\00:18:04.13
the way things currently are
is that if a union wants to get
00:18:04.16\00:18:07.71
into a working environment
and organize the workers,
00:18:07.74\00:18:10.95
the process in terms of the
law now is that there has to be
00:18:10.98\00:18:17.03
a vote, and
it's a secret ballot,
00:18:17.06\00:18:19.35
so it allows the worker to vote
the way they really want to vote
00:18:19.38\00:18:25.12
and it's secret so that
their vote cannot be detected.
00:18:25.15\00:18:28.80
Now this is a great
principle of Western democracy,
00:18:28.83\00:18:32.15
began in Australia, by the way.
00:18:32.18\00:18:33.83
But we'll accept it now,
and when you vote in federal
00:18:33.84\00:18:37.56
elections, or state elections.
00:18:37.59\00:18:39.01
But when the card check
system that was come in,
00:18:39.04\00:18:41.49
here's where the
problem comes in.
00:18:41.50\00:18:44.66
Unions would be able to collect-
workers could check the card
00:18:44.67\00:18:51.23
that they are interested
in a union being formed,
00:18:51.24\00:18:55.49
and when they have 51% or more
than 50% of the working force
00:18:55.52\00:19:01.63
that indicates that,
automatically that union becomes
00:19:01.66\00:19:05.80
the representative of
the workers and they become
00:19:05.81\00:19:11.74
unionized. Well that
bypasses whether the person,
00:19:11.77\00:19:14.14
that to me, the
card check system,
00:19:14.17\00:19:15.87
is more an indication that
some people have a preference
00:19:15.88\00:19:20.42
or they're
considering the possibility,
00:19:20.43\00:19:23.90
or they're interested in unions,
but it's not necessarily a vote
00:19:23.93\00:19:27.13
that there is actually a
union going to be taking place.
00:19:27.16\00:19:29.85
No, I think part of the
reason this has come about,
00:19:29.88\00:19:32.34
without naming
any large corporations
00:19:32.37\00:19:37.37
in the United States,
but there is a large retailer
00:19:37.40\00:19:39.32
that's really not
allowed unions and resorted to,
00:19:39.35\00:19:44.05
what some have called pressure
on their employees, to dissuade
00:19:44.08\00:19:48.27
them from joining, and I
think this would be a back
00:19:48.30\00:19:50.63
door way to sort of get
a litmus test of the mood
00:19:50.66\00:19:54.73
of the employees
and get a union through.
00:19:54.76\00:19:57.11
It really has no direct
bearing on religious liberty,
00:19:57.14\00:20:04.07
but its after affect may. To
take away self determination.
00:20:04.10\00:20:09.54
The way you stated it
there I thought was good.
00:20:09.57\00:20:10.54
In that, not only can the
union put pressure on people
00:20:10.55\00:20:16.17
to sign a card check system,
that automatically when it
00:20:16.20\00:20:19.59
reaches 50% without any
other procedures they begin to
00:20:19.62\00:20:22.89
organize and everything
and the voting process,
00:20:22.92\00:20:25.70
the democratic
process, so to speak,
00:20:25.73\00:20:28.20
has already taken
place in this way.
00:20:28.23\00:20:30.48
But there's also pressures
and underhanded tactics that
00:20:30.51\00:20:34.37
employers also utilize,
and the secret ballot vote
00:20:34.40\00:20:40.54
allows persons to respond
to either of those kind of
00:20:40.57\00:20:45.36
pressures in a way,
it's a secret ballot,
00:20:45.39\00:20:49.54
they won't get in trouble
for their vote because it's not
00:20:49.57\00:20:52.98
known to the employer and
it's not known to the union.
00:20:53.01\00:20:55.75
And generally speaking,
people when they have a secret
00:20:55.76\00:20:59.46
ballot the tendency has
been they don't want unions.
00:20:59.49\00:21:02.78
And largely because historically
people just don't trust them,
00:21:02.81\00:21:06.69
except those who
are members you know.
00:21:06.70\00:21:10.73
We're in a close union faze
in some way because the gains of
00:21:10.76\00:21:16.32
unionism in that time
of unrestrained capitalism,
00:21:16.33\00:21:20.95
you know those gains have
been made and been enjoyed for
00:21:20.98\00:21:23.73
a generation or two.
00:21:23.76\00:21:25.12
But the pope and his document
that we eluded to earlier
00:21:25.15\00:21:29.18
and other social commentators
have seen in the collapse
00:21:29.21\00:21:33.10
of 2009 basically realigning
of the forces that play
00:21:33.13\00:21:41.13
between labor and capitol,
and there is arguably some
00:21:41.16\00:21:44.96
need to shore up
the worker's rights,
00:21:44.99\00:21:47.64
or as we've seen in some
dissolution of big businesses.
00:21:47.67\00:21:50.28
They'll be fired wholesale,
or their benefits will be cut
00:21:50.31\00:21:53.84
wholesale, or you know,
in some large scale way their
00:21:53.87\00:21:56.67
rights will be cut.
00:21:56.70\00:21:57.67
And we might want to make our
listeners aware that while we
00:21:57.68\00:22:00.51
have religious liberty concerns
and object to unions on that
00:22:00.54\00:22:03.86
basis, we can't be
blind to the practical need
00:22:03.89\00:22:07.13
in this marketplace
of labor against capitol.
00:22:07.16\00:22:12.06
When there is a lot
of unemployed people
00:22:12.09\00:22:13.84
the inherent bargaining power
of the individual worker drops
00:22:13.87\00:22:17.91
radically, and that is
what gave rise to unionism.
00:22:17.94\00:22:20.84
That's what their bargaining
with, their value to the worker
00:22:20.87\00:22:24.48
to the employer, of their labor.
00:22:24.49\00:22:26.86
But if you can go around
the street and get ten similar
00:22:26.89\00:22:31.28
workers, or if you're dealing
with something electronic,
00:22:31.31\00:22:34.32
go across the ocean to get
hundred workers for the price
00:22:34.35\00:22:36.97
of one, you have
little bargaining power.
00:22:37.00\00:22:39.52
So as never before there is
probably a need for people to
00:22:39.55\00:22:43.76
clump together for
that bargaining power.
00:22:43.79\00:22:46.39
But in so doing, I think there
is reason to see from history
00:22:46.42\00:22:50.94
and prophecy, that
the individual rights,
00:22:50.97\00:22:54.17
and this case religious right,
someone who may not go along
00:22:54.18\00:22:57.63
with this corporate thinking.
00:22:57.66\00:22:59.08
People going for
legitimate civil right
00:22:59.11\00:23:01.90
they could be
restricted in their prices.
00:23:01.93\00:23:04.20
Individually, we as workers,
lets say if we were all working
00:23:04.23\00:23:09.16
in a factory, not all
workers have the same abilities,
00:23:09.19\00:23:13.36
and not all workers have
the same level of experience,
00:23:13.39\00:23:18.05
and so individual workers have
differences that exist among
00:23:18.08\00:23:22.67
them, even though
they might be doing
00:23:22.70\00:23:23.95
the same thing. And
those differences can be
00:23:23.96\00:23:27.05
advantageous to individuals
that on the basis of merit could
00:23:27.08\00:23:32.56
negotiate something for them
because they have something of
00:23:32.57\00:23:35.64
greater value. Now
when you go to a union
00:23:35.67\00:23:38.36
system, the tendency
is to level everybody,
00:23:38.39\00:23:43.48
it's a concept of equality
where all the workers are the
00:23:43.51\00:23:47.31
same in terms of the rights,
but what takes the place of
00:23:47.34\00:23:52.89
merit is pecking order.
How long you've been in the
00:23:52.92\00:23:57.48
union, seniority,
and everything like this.
00:23:57.51\00:23:59.78
And then the whole concept
of merit is completely gutted.
00:23:59.81\00:24:03.34
And this is problematic
because unions do not capture
00:24:03.37\00:24:07.60
the nuances of what
worker's individual rights are.
00:24:07.63\00:24:11.30
Can I interject?
00:24:11.33\00:24:12.30
Sure, it's your program
you can do whatever you want.
00:24:12.31\00:24:15.13
You've precisely put your point
on one of the current areas
00:24:15.14\00:24:20.02
of disagreement with the unions.
00:24:20.05\00:24:21.21
When a Sabbath
keeper, whether it's Jewish
00:24:21.24\00:24:25.23
or Seventh Day
Adventist, wants accommodation,
00:24:25.26\00:24:27.34
and they're not a union member,
they've come hard up against
00:24:27.37\00:24:29.83
the union
requirement, that while yes,
00:24:29.86\00:24:32.09
the union might be
sympathetic to their need,
00:24:32.12\00:24:33.80
but there's union
members on their hierarchy,
00:24:33.83\00:24:36.73
and for them to give, you
know that person might want
00:24:36.76\00:24:41.51
rescheduling so that
they don't work Saturday,
00:24:41.54\00:24:45.66
but that's the prerogative of
someone who's several steps up
00:24:45.69\00:24:48.95
the union ladder.
00:24:48.98\00:24:50.12
And they can't think that they
would bypass their own system
00:24:50.15\00:24:53.19
of merit and hierarchy.
00:24:53.22\00:24:55.42
So without them meaning to
have a challenge for the Sabbath
00:24:55.45\00:24:59.58
observance per say,
they are resistant to giving
00:24:59.61\00:25:03.39
that accommodation.
00:25:03.42\00:25:04.86
Yeah, because the way bargaining
agreements go between unions
00:25:04.89\00:25:10.19
and employers is that when
you have something falls outside
00:25:10.22\00:25:15.12
of that, in terms of
religious free exercise,
00:25:15.15\00:25:17.43
its harder for that to
fit in to that bargaining
00:25:17.46\00:25:22.54
agreement. So it
becomes something that's
00:25:22.57\00:25:23.99
on the outside
and therefore harder.
00:25:24.02\00:25:26.15
So Adventists that join unions,
when it comes down to a conflict
00:25:26.18\00:25:30.94
with their religion,
it depends on the nature
00:25:30.97\00:25:33.59
of the circumstances and
what it is your asking for and
00:25:33.62\00:25:36.64
whether the union will actually
come to your aid or not.
00:25:36.67\00:25:39.01
And that was a question the
church is going to maintain it's
00:25:39.04\00:25:41.22
stance, we don't recommend union
membership, we are cautious
00:25:41.25\00:25:44.37
of it. But we are not so
close minded that we are blind
00:25:44.40\00:25:49.70
to the changing dynamic between
or the shift of power between
00:25:49.73\00:25:54.42
between workers and capitol.
These are dangerous times,
00:25:54.45\00:25:58.12
but these are times also to
protect our religious freedoms,
00:25:58.15\00:26:01.36
especially in the workplace.
00:26:01.39\00:26:03.21
We can protect our interests
even by maintaining our
00:26:03.24\00:26:08.01
position as it is now.
With our position presently
00:26:08.04\00:26:11.06
is that people who pay to
charities in lieu of paying dues
00:26:11.09\00:26:15.31
to unions, unions are now
looking to turn that around
00:26:15.34\00:26:19.89
and if they help you even in the
work place they want to recover
00:26:19.92\00:26:24.98
their cost for helping you;
so you wind up having to work
00:26:24.99\00:26:28.20
with the union no matter what.
And maintaining this position
00:26:28.21\00:26:31.70
now will help us in the future.
00:26:31.73\00:26:36.26
For Seventh Day Adventists in
workplace there are indeed many
00:26:36.29\00:26:39.48
impediments to freely
practicing their religious faith
00:26:39.51\00:26:42.90
Of course faith is more
then just a day of rest,
00:26:42.93\00:26:45.94
but it is very important
for Seventh Day Adventists,
00:26:45.97\00:26:49.62
those of the Jewish
faith, as well as the Muslims,
00:26:49.65\00:26:53.39
and others who
worship on other days.
00:26:53.43\00:26:55.04
It's important
to keep a holy day.
00:26:55.07\00:26:57.37
More and more, confederations
of workers and the requirements
00:26:58.66\00:27:04.24
and the arrangements that
they have made with capitol,
00:27:04.27\00:27:06.75
with the employer, get in
the way of that free exercise of
00:27:06.78\00:27:10.30
religion. That is
why from early days
00:27:10.33\00:27:13.69
from the development of the
Seventh Day Adventist church,
00:27:13.72\00:27:15.59
leaders cautioned members
against joining labor unions.
00:27:15.62\00:27:19.65
While there is a
restatement of that arrangement,
00:27:19.68\00:27:24.34
between labor and capitol
in these post collapse days,
00:27:24.37\00:27:27.84
it's important to remember
that card checks and other
00:27:27.87\00:27:31.60
requirements that may
force union membership will also
00:27:31.64\00:27:35.36
compromise a believer's
ability to stand for their faith
00:27:35.39\00:27:40.34
and gain an accommodation.
Jesus told us to be not
00:27:40.37\00:27:45.63
unequally yoked. And I
think allying ourselves
00:27:45.66\00:27:50.19
with one part of
this labor capitol debate,
00:27:50.22\00:27:53.22
which has ranged
over the centuries,
00:27:53.25\00:27:55.51
may compromise our
ability to honor the Lord,
00:27:55.52\00:28:00.21
worship on His day, and
truly witness and practice
00:28:00.24\00:28:02.85
our faith in the workplace.
00:28:02.88\00:28:04.41
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:28:07.03\00:28:09.79