Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the program
that brings you up to
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date News, Views
information, discussion on
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religious liberty isssues.
My name is Lincoln Steed,
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Editor of Liberty
Magazine and my guest on
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the program is Matt McMearty,
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a graduate of the
Baylor School of Church
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State Studies in Waco,
Texas, and for sometime
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you worked for the
Seventh-Day Adventist
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Church as a legislative
liaison or a advocate,
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advocate, as many
ways we can put it, but
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we have
representatives in different
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places particularly
in the United States
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that liaise with
the government and they
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lobby to a point that
is really informing them
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of our views on
some issues that relate
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to religious
expression for your exercise.
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There is a lot of
things that you and I could
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talk about as I know
your studies have really
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exposed you to church
history and the religious
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liberty issues from
the earliest days right up
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to the present. But
one of the more recent
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events that took my
fancy, that was on the
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front page of the
Washington post with the
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photograph, was a
curious case that's going
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before the Supreme
court but it starts out
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in the desert in desolate
place in California called
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Cima, California,
out of the Mojave Desert.
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They're on the rocky
out cropping is a very small
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but distinctive,
because there's nothing else
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there just small cross.
Actually six feet small.
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Well six foot is small,
it's not a big cross, right.
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But nothing much
else there and it was put
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there many, many
years ago as a memorial
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of World War I veterans
placed there by the VFW.
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Not a religious
reason but suddenly because
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of an objection
brought by a park service
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employee and
that's on Federal Land
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not state land. It
went to the through the
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court system and
now it's been bumped up
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to the supreme court
who've dealt with this sort
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of thing before. So
you I could probably later
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say where we think
this is going but what
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is really going on in
this case, what does it
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represent? It
represents the issue of whether
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the federal government
can officially sanction
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a religious symbol, a
specific religious symbol
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that has to do
with Christianity and
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its values and teachings.
And, whether it can favor
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that over other
religious symbols and this site
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has kind of
developed into kind of a sacred
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site in terms of having
had Easter Services added
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and other things, it's
more then just a national
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memorial, it's a
religious gathering place. It's
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something. Let me
really throw a curve at you,
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you know studied
this you know you
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must know an
answer to this you know
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that sounds little
bit danger, the federal
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government
promoting religion perhaps
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through a cross.
What about the presidents?
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President Obama just
took his oath on hand
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on the Bible? That's a
religious symbol right,
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in a very public
ceremony. Yes, and the supreme
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court has not ruled
outright against every
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kind of religious
presence in terms of federal
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government or even
in state governments
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now with the
incorporation doctrine
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concerning the 14th
amendment and the 1st
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amendment. So, this
is a matter of religious
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displays on public properties.
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This is back there
back to the Bible because
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I probably raise something
little trouble something,
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unless my history
is wrong. Wasn't it
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George Washington
who introduced his Bible
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and he wanted his Bible
to function at President
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swearing on the
Bible, it's not specified,
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it's not
specified as a government
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requirement is it?
It's really, that's correct,
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it's more of the
practice, they know this.
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Yes, he knows but
he's really swearing to
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the state not
swearing to God but as a person
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of some faith
George Washington and other
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presidents have
wanted to make their own
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personal statement
and that is not prohibited
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either by government official,
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well all government
officials all the way down
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to the school
teachers. People are allowed
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to express their own
faith, it's when they
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speak on behalf of
the government then
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opt to project and
require religious activities
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in that role as a public
official. But this is just
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a cross some put a
cross on a hill so.
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Out in the boonies,
so what's gonna happen
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with this, Supreme
Court are gonna look at this,
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they've looked it similar
things before haven't they,
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usually Ten
Commandment of recent years.
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Well there is, Ten
Commandments displaced.
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There is religious
displays in terms of
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nativity scenes,
menorahs, there was issues
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that related to free
speech and public display
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the ku klux klan
cross, Christmas Trees,
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the Ten Commandments,
all these are public are
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symbolic displays
in public facilities
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or in public lands.
And, it carries with
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it a sense of violating
the separation of church
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and state in terms of
the establishment clause
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where government
authority and religion are
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to be kept
separate from each other.
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This has little aspect
of it of a free exercise
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but it's, it's a matter
of do these individuals only
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get to exercise their
symbolic representation
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in this memorial
versus other religions.
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Yeah it always seems
little interesting to me
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because even in
liberty we've had articles
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from both points of
view in the cultural divide
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or some those they
call it lack of culture but
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there are those
religionists and you and I,
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I think we would call
ourselves religionists,
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but some of our fellow
religionists are great pains
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and very vocally
wanting to say that this is a,
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the United States is
a Christian Republic,
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Christian nation.
Well that's problematic
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that liberty in its
early days fought against such
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a thing that had with it
requirement for Sunday law,
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a national day of
worship. So we see that
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movement but at the
same time there is no
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question that in an
increasingly secularized
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society even though
nominal religion and
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religious
attendance is still high,
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there are many
seculars who literally want
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to drive religion
out of the public's fear
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and they're using
the constitution and the
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separation of church
and state to get rid of
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religions that
they don't' like, right.
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So there is a little
bit of both at play here.
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Yes, and this is
how these conflicts take
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place some people
call it part of the culture
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of war, yes, as you
know there is some truth
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to that but the first
amendment is not hostility
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to religion,
separation of church and state
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is not designed to
be hostage to religion,
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but the court has in
recent decades characterized
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it to be neutral regarding
religion and non-religion,
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it cannot favor one
against the other and
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what this issue is, this
is just kind of a left over
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of other issues
that have been more less
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resolved not
necessarily at everyone's
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personal
satisfaction we've everybody who
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is mad at the
supreme court on these
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matters for one
reason or the other.
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And this is a kind
of a left over issue and
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it's out in the desert
it's something that people
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see it's on federal
property, people ask
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what harm is it,
it's got symbolism to it.
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And I think a number
of people will be watching
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this more closely than
they have for some years
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because even though
democrats and now even
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President Obama is
just recently placed Sonia
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Sotomayor before
that George Bush made few
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appointees most
particularly Justice Roberts,
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the chief justice, quite
clearly a conservative and
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I got to be careful not
to say what he didn't say,
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he didn't show himself
in his, his confirmation
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hearings to be you
know just unabashedly
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partisan to religious
issues but he is clearly
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more favorable to
religious expressions.
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So he's gotta be in a
difficult spot or seems
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to be, he wouldn't
dare remove something that
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had religious over
turns and yet I know he
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is a good enough
constitutional scholar
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as are the fellow
justices, that they're
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going to be careful
about giving cap launch
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for religious
expression on public land.
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So my guess is.
Difficulty the court I expect
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and this is just my
personal view, looking
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at this picture here
they have a bag over it
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and other times they have a,
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it presently has
plywood around it,
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so it's kind of like
a restrain order, yeah,
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until this matter is
settled, but I expect that
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the difficulty the
supreme court is going
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to face is that this
is a standalone symbol.
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If there were
other symbols with this,
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the court wouldn't
even be looking at this
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because they've already
settled that issue. This
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is a singular
situation where it's federal
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land and all the
decisions concerning it
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has to do with this
one cross and therefore
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it carries a lot of
meaning pro and con for
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the people in the
different positions and
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the court you know it
may very well come out
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with some kind of
rational that nuance
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is just allowing
this kind of thing.
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Well in the past the
you know the supreme court
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have fallen back on
the term I think they
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made it up ceremonial deism,
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deism they didn't
make up but they called
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in this term for the sermon,
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where it's basically
and it's a horrible thing,
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it's damning
implication, even though it's a
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legal
convenience for them, because
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ceremonial deism
essentially means religious
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symbols removed
of their meaning,
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they become just
cultural Icons rather then
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religious
icons. Yes, well a bit,
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there's some true to
that, but even ceremonial
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deism was a means
that was in terms of words
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and ideas of
conveying the larger shared
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values through the
vehicle of that kind of deism,
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the language and
things, George Washington
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was very good at that.
But, our society has been
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traditionally Christian
although our government
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hasn't been Christian
per say though it's been
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predominantly run by Christians,
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of various
perspectives, and we got to be
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careful because
some people when you says
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you know Christian
country culturally,
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I mean the people you
know that's profession
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you know with
everybody's behaved and
00:11:02.64\00:11:05.38
the government
corporately is behaved
00:11:05.39\00:11:07.12
in a truly Christian
manner that comes down
00:11:07.13\00:11:09.01
to analyzing
Christianity in practice but
00:11:10.39\00:11:12.92
there's been a
professional identification
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with that culturally with
that religious persuasion,
00:11:14.82\00:11:18.69
but more than
Christian protestant.
00:11:18.70\00:11:19.76
Early United States
was uniformly a protestant
00:11:20.72\00:11:23.61
culture. And what
the problem is today
00:11:23.62\00:11:26.99
that we didn't have
50 years ago is that this
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is 50 years ago it
was kind of Catholic,
00:11:33.58\00:11:35.56
Protestant, Jew and
so those symbols could
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all serve as kind of
sharing some kind of basic
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foundation together
with differing views,
00:11:45.23\00:11:48.35
but basically
sharing this perspective.
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And so here today
we have people that are
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of so many different religions,
00:11:56.48\00:11:58.03
it's very hard for
the government to even use
00:11:58.04\00:12:01.02
something that captures
a religious significance
00:12:01.03\00:12:03.92
for everybody, yeah there is no,
00:12:03.93\00:12:04.96
and that's very
hard to do symbolically.
00:12:04.97\00:12:06.59
There is no
syncretistic symbol and because
00:12:06.60\00:12:08.59
we don't syncretism,
and if there was a lot
00:12:08.60\00:12:09.76
of people
wouldn't be happy with it.
00:12:09.77\00:12:11.20
But there is no
question the root I think a lot
00:12:11.89\00:12:14.68
of these debates and
not just in culture war,
00:12:14.69\00:12:17.14
it's population shift,
we're not uniformly protestant
00:12:17.77\00:12:21.18
we're not even as
uniformly Christian in the blank
00:12:21.76\00:12:26.33
it says and it's many Muslims,
00:12:26.34\00:12:27.56
some millions as well
as people of no faith,
00:12:28.54\00:12:31.05
Buddhists and so
on, and if for America
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to be true to
it's secular claims,
00:12:34.32\00:12:36.75
I think it has to be
even handed and as far as
00:12:37.37\00:12:40.23
possible out
ofthe religion business.
00:12:40.24\00:12:42.28
When we come
back after the break
00:12:43.56\00:12:44.81
we'll look a
little bit of more at this
00:12:45.42\00:12:46.81
expression of
religion in public places.
00:12:47.18\00:12:49.59
One-hundred years, a
long time to do anything
00:12:59.75\00:13:02.89
much less publish a magazine,
00:13:03.59\00:13:04.96
but this year Liberty,
the Seventh-Day Adventist
00:13:05.54\00:13:08.50
voice of religious
freedom, celebrates
00:13:08.51\00:13:10.49
one hundred years of
doing what it does best,
00:13:10.50\00:13:13.32
collecting,
analyzing, and reporting the ebb
00:13:13.33\00:13:16.55
and flow of religious
expression around the world.
00:13:16.56\00:13:19.24
Issue after issue,
Liberty has taken on the tough
00:13:20.00\00:13:23.12
assignments, tracking
down threats to religious
00:13:23.13\00:13:25.48
freedom and exposing
the work of the devil
00:13:25.49\00:13:27.37
in every corner of
the globe. Governmental
00:13:27.38\00:13:30.16
interference, personal
attacks, corporate assaults,
00:13:30.17\00:13:33.32
even religious
freedom issues sequestered
00:13:33.33\00:13:35.76
within the church
community itself have been
00:13:35.77\00:13:37.86
clearly and honestly
exposed. Liberty exists
00:13:37.87\00:13:41.34
for one purpose to help
God's people maintain that
00:13:41.35\00:13:44.82
all important
separation of Church and State,
00:13:44.83\00:13:47.67
while recognizing the
dangers inherent in such
00:13:48.24\00:13:50.70
a struggle.
During the past century,
00:13:50.71\00:13:52.99
Liberty has experienced
challenges of its own,
00:13:53.52\00:13:55.42
but it remains on the
job. Thanks to the inspired
00:13:55.96\00:13:59.19
leadership of a
long line of dedicated
00:13:59.20\00:14:01.24
Adventist Editors,
three of whom represent
00:14:01.25\00:14:03.38
almost half of the
publications existence and
00:14:03.39\00:14:05.29
the foresight of a
little woman from New England.
00:14:06.07\00:14:08.56
One hundred years of struggle,
00:14:09.31\00:14:10.82
one hundred years
of victories, religious
00:14:11.44\00:14:13.94
freedom isn't just
about political machine
00:14:13.95\00:14:16.12
and cultural prejudices.
It's about people fighting
00:14:16.13\00:14:20.42
for the right to
serve the God they love
00:14:20.43\00:14:22.72
as their hearts and
the Holy Spirit dictate.
00:14:23.38\00:14:25.87
Thanks to the
prayers and generous support
00:14:26.61\00:14:28.65
of Seventh-Day
Adventists everywhere.
00:14:28.66\00:14:30.56
Liberty will continue
to accomplish its work
00:14:30.57\00:14:33.24
of providing timely information,
00:14:33.25\00:14:34.86
spirit filled
inspiration, and heaven sent
00:14:34.87\00:14:37.53
encouragement to
all who long to live
00:14:37.54\00:14:40.13
and work in a world
bound together by the
00:14:40.14\00:14:43.42
God ordained bonds
of religious freedom.
00:14:43.43\00:14:46.85
Welcome back to the
Liberty Insider before
00:14:54.74\00:14:56.54
the break we were
talking about the case
00:14:56.55\00:14:59.34
that's currently
before the supreme court
00:14:59.35\00:15:01.01
and I'm talking
with Matt. McMearty.
00:15:01.02\00:15:02.83
The Supreme Court is
currently looking and
00:15:05.09\00:15:07.95
will soon and maybe
by the time this program
00:15:07.96\00:15:10.36
comes out have given
judgment on the display
00:15:10.37\00:15:13.56
of a cross in the
desert in Cima, California.
00:15:13.57\00:15:16.09
And regardless of
what the Supreme Court says
00:15:17.38\00:15:19.64
and we think we know
what they're gonna say,
00:15:19.65\00:15:21.16
and of course there
are a lot of experts that
00:15:21.17\00:15:22.65
think and don't know,
but they've been this way
00:15:22.66\00:15:25.80
before and it's a bigger
issue then just this cross.
00:15:25.81\00:15:28.86
But as we'll be
discussing at some length
00:15:29.92\00:15:31.58
with this cross,
it's all about whether the
00:15:31.59\00:15:34.44
government can favor
one religion or can even
00:15:34.45\00:15:39.61
allow symbols on
public land that might have
00:15:39.62\00:15:42.84
religious connotations isn't it.
00:15:42.85\00:15:44.29
Yes, there was an
issue that somewhat related
00:15:45.41\00:15:50.83
to this, it had to do
with Indian burial sites
00:15:50.84\00:15:54.19
or sacred sites and a
road being built through
00:15:54.20\00:15:57.45
public land and the
Indians lost that issue,
00:15:57.46\00:16:02.01
usually when it comes
to the minorities on things
00:16:02.99\00:16:05.86
like the Indians,
well the Indians have lost
00:16:05.87\00:16:06.95
for a few hundred
years, but it fits within the
00:16:06.96\00:16:08.86
general majoritarian
type of view of religion
00:16:08.87\00:16:12.60
in terms of Christianity
sometimes these things
00:16:12.61\00:16:16.13
make that, make it
through. In the supreme court's
00:16:16.99\00:16:19.58
rulings. Well in fact
there maybe is a good way
00:16:19.59\00:16:24.05
for me to introduce a
case, that the Smith case
00:16:24.06\00:16:29.32
went before the
Supreme Court many years ago
00:16:29.94\00:16:31.62
on Indian smoking
priority as a religious ceremony
00:16:31.63\00:16:35.57
hallucinogenic
substance and as I remember
00:16:36.49\00:16:39.67
they wouldn't just
allow that, they were not
00:16:39.68\00:16:41.09
given an exemption.
It had to do with whether
00:16:41.10\00:16:44.95
they could receive
unemployment benefits and
00:16:44.96\00:16:47.26
their dismissal, yes
and for that reason but
00:16:47.27\00:16:49.76
it had a great
bearing on religious liberty.
00:16:49.77\00:16:52.89
So just one caseas I eluted to,
00:16:52.90\00:16:55.05
the Indians seem to
have been losing all
00:16:55.06\00:16:56.51
the way as a minority
there is not typically
00:16:56.52\00:16:59.27
great widening given
to their status and that's
00:16:59.28\00:17:02.94
very unfortunate.
Yeah we, you and I think
00:17:02.95\00:17:06.69
we agreed that the
supreme court is probably
00:17:06.70\00:17:08.56
gonna finance their
way out of this thing,
00:17:08.57\00:17:10.06
they can't go
really either extreme,
00:17:10.07\00:17:12.28
they can't absolutely
deny you know anything
00:17:12.29\00:17:16.60
that has the slightest
tint of religious expression
00:17:16.61\00:17:19.11
because you know
we'd have to clean out
00:17:19.12\00:17:21.85
the cemeteries, all
the crosses and military
00:17:21.86\00:17:24.19
cemeteries and even
in congress in the senate
00:17:24.20\00:17:27.21
there's chaplains
and you know there's just
00:17:27.22\00:17:29.35
any number of cases
of religion creeping
00:17:29.36\00:17:32.15
in nor can they
whole sale allow it because
00:17:33.32\00:17:35.93
that would be the
beginning of a you know
00:17:35.94\00:17:38.41
religious republic
which in many ways this
00:17:38.42\00:17:41.10
country was a reaction against.
00:17:41.11\00:17:42.67
You haven't
heard me in full pride,
00:17:42.68\00:17:45.11
but the religious
dictatorship under
00:17:45.12\00:17:47.82
Oliver Cromwell of
England. Barely a lifetime
00:17:47.83\00:17:50.92
before the American
experiment I think is
00:17:50.93\00:17:52.70
an object lesson in
too much religion and
00:17:52.71\00:17:55.74
power can lead to
it's own autocratic
00:17:55.75\00:17:58.63
dictatorship when
forced religious behavior
00:17:58.64\00:18:01.78
and the US was
reacting against that from
00:18:01.79\00:18:04.50
the old world. Part
of the somewhat hooks
00:18:04.51\00:18:07.95
seemingly
corrosive element in this
00:18:07.96\00:18:09.93
is that there were
a Buddhist association
00:18:09.94\00:18:12.37
that wanted to build a shrine,
00:18:12.38\00:18:14.05
somewhere in
proximity I don't know how,
00:18:14.06\00:18:16.59
I forget how close was to this.
00:18:16.60\00:18:18.39
And it was turned
down. And it was turned down
00:18:18.40\00:18:20.45
.so the congress
didn't approve that and
00:18:20.98\00:18:25.04
so the question is,
is that has the symbolism
00:18:25.05\00:18:29.46
or the value of that
it's favoring Christianity
00:18:29.47\00:18:32.19
by allowing that to
be the exclusive domain
00:18:32.20\00:18:35.89
for a Christian
symbol to recognize the,
00:18:35.90\00:18:38.70
put their by
veterans concerning those who
00:18:39.72\00:18:41.69
died in wars. It
does seem like in my mind
00:18:41.70\00:18:45.65
that the supreme
court when they come
00:18:45.66\00:18:47.60
to this are really
going to do what they've
00:18:47.61\00:18:50.98
done before and make
this distinction between
00:18:50.99\00:18:52.75
ceremonial deism and
of a religious expression
00:18:52.76\00:18:56.09
and in the Texas
case a few years ago.
00:18:56.10\00:18:58.98
They were two
objects on the same Texas
00:19:01.23\00:19:03.02
State Capital
Grounds one had been there
00:19:03.86\00:19:06.00
a long time
surrounded by different other
00:19:06.01\00:19:09.56
objects, secular and
I think somewhat it had
00:19:09.57\00:19:12.87
religious meaning
but in context it really
00:19:12.88\00:19:14.82
said nothing and I
just called that ceremonial
00:19:14.83\00:19:17.20
deism but where
and another display,
00:19:17.21\00:19:19.60
a Ten
Commandment display was put
00:19:19.61\00:19:21.24
purposely to make
a religious statement
00:19:21.25\00:19:23.68
I said no that
can't be. And I guess I'm
00:19:23.69\00:19:27.91
reading this really
wrong I think there's
00:19:27.92\00:19:29.44
no much evidence to
say that this was put
00:19:29.45\00:19:31.32
there with an overt
intention to display
00:19:31.33\00:19:33.40
religious symbol and
they'll probably just
00:19:33.41\00:19:35.44
say well it's
fine. And you know,
00:19:35.45\00:19:37.82
no more but this is
fine it doesn't really mean
00:19:38.61\00:19:40.49
anything and probably
known no new president,
00:19:40.50\00:19:42.54
what do you think?
You think that's where
00:19:42.55\00:19:46.02
they're going.
Well part of the problem
00:19:46.03\00:19:47.64
of this case is that
what did the veterans
00:19:47.65\00:19:51.17
means when they
put that cross up
00:19:51.18\00:19:53.08
and what does its
meaning since it has been
00:19:53.72\00:19:56.09
put up. I think
that's an issue that there
00:19:56.10\00:19:58.01
court may have to distinguish.
00:19:58.02\00:20:00.44
Yeah, yeah well
meaning we're getting
00:20:01.48\00:20:04.67
into linguistics here
rather then law and but
00:20:04.68\00:20:06.90
yet that does have
a lot to do with it,
00:20:06.91\00:20:08.84
people insert, it's become
a religious holy site now.
00:20:08.85\00:20:12.17
Yeah, that's not and, veterans,
00:20:12.18\00:20:13.78
that same
newspaper report and others
00:20:13.79\00:20:16.49
that I picked up
on Internet mentioned
00:20:16.50\00:20:18.43
that people have
been having Easter Sunrise
00:20:18.44\00:20:20.40
services there, which
to me as a Bible living
00:20:20.41\00:20:24.57
Christian troubles me a
little, an Easter Sunrise
00:20:24.58\00:20:26.56
service is a little
more pagan than Christian
00:20:26.57\00:20:28.54
to me but we Christians do it.
00:20:28.55\00:20:30.41
So taken to
account that the Buddhist
00:20:30.42\00:20:32.87
had asked for a
shrine to be build nearby
00:20:32.88\00:20:37.23
and a shrine is
also a religious element
00:20:37.24\00:20:41.48
in terms of religious
practice and everything
00:20:41.49\00:20:43.77
and congress turned that down.
00:20:43.78\00:20:45.23
Well that doesn't
trouble me that much,
00:20:46.03\00:20:48.25
that ties in with
the Ten Commandments
00:20:48.26\00:20:51.11
that you were
referring to in text,
00:20:51.12\00:20:52.27
exactly and that
would be the one that they
00:20:52.28\00:20:53.96
would disallow
and this maybe for,
00:20:53.97\00:20:55.89
because it's
stand alone now and they
00:20:55.90\00:20:57.63
rejected a previous
one of Buddhist request
00:20:57.64\00:21:00.79
and. Now about this
dichotomy that I tried
00:21:00.80\00:21:03.23
to point out before between what
00:21:03.24\00:21:05.30
the first
amendment requires with the,
00:21:05.31\00:21:07.76
it doesn't use the
term but essentially it's
00:21:08.45\00:21:09.93
separation of church and state,
00:21:09.94\00:21:11.17
that the government
should not favor or support
00:21:11.18\00:21:17.08
a particular religion,
but this dichotomy between
00:21:17.09\00:21:19.93
being treated that or
which means separating
00:21:19.94\00:21:23.79
it and others who
want religion in is not
00:21:23.80\00:21:26.83
just on public
displays it's on expression
00:21:26.84\00:21:29.88
of religion and this
no more contentious area
00:21:29.89\00:21:32.49
of that than in the
schools. We've had many cases
00:21:32.50\00:21:35.88
and many articles in
Liberty Magazine in recent
00:21:35.89\00:21:38.09
years on the
expression of religion in the
00:21:38.10\00:21:40.50
school situation.
Now you know how do you
00:21:40.51\00:21:43.28
see that? Maybe
people haven't heard or
00:21:43.29\00:21:46.32
read anything on it
like it was not a dead issue.
00:21:46.33\00:21:48.47
Our church state
problems in these kind of
00:21:49.79\00:21:52.02
areas are never
gonna be a completely
00:21:52.03\00:21:54.47
solved issue and
reason is this society changes
00:21:54.48\00:21:58.24
over time, and
therefore how people look
00:21:58.25\00:22:00.91
at issues from
before are not the same as
00:22:00.92\00:22:04.14
they might look at
them in the present.
00:22:04.15\00:22:05.95
But in terms of
religion and public schools
00:22:07.90\00:22:09.96
the issue of the
freedom of religion,
00:22:11.84\00:22:13.52
religious
expression is whether employees
00:22:13.53\00:22:16.74
of the state get to
express their religious
00:22:16.75\00:22:19.49
views to the
students who are there under
00:22:19.50\00:22:21.72
compulsory
attendance laws, right,
00:22:21.73\00:22:23.24
verses the students
themselves and their
00:22:23.25\00:22:25.54
own voluntary
expression of religion
00:22:25.55\00:22:27.66
within the parameters
of how a school operates
00:22:27.67\00:22:30.34
and rules. Exactly and
this is you just stated
00:22:30.35\00:22:33.26
it beautifully and I
think we're well to be
00:22:33.27\00:22:36.11
on our guard
against either a teacher
00:22:36.12\00:22:38.12
or an administration in
the school orchestrating,
00:22:38.13\00:22:41.23
coordinating and
requiring different forms
00:22:41.24\00:22:44.29
of religious
expression whether it's reading
00:22:44.30\00:22:46.54
material or a
public prayer or whatever,
00:22:46.55\00:22:49.00
but we need to
protect vigorously the right
00:22:50.07\00:22:52.64
of the students
particularly into some
00:22:52.65\00:22:55.58
degree even if the
teacher as citizen,
00:22:55.59\00:22:59.55
and an individual,
their right to have religious
00:22:59.56\00:23:03.66
view points and to express them.
00:23:03.67\00:23:05.12
The teacher could
not in my view standup
00:23:05.80\00:23:08.09
in front of the class
and sort of step outside
00:23:08.10\00:23:10.37
of their roll as
teacher and say here
00:23:10.38\00:23:11.89
is a person I believe
this no, yeah because,
00:23:11.90\00:23:14.03
they're very much constrained,
00:23:14.04\00:23:15.64
they aren't
employed to convey that,
00:23:15.65\00:23:16.63
they're employed to teach. But,
00:23:16.64\00:23:18.88
I think you know in
staff quarters and talking
00:23:19.78\00:23:23.29
with other teachers
they should have the right
00:23:23.30\00:23:24.87
as anyone else in the workplace,
00:23:24.88\00:23:26.52
and they do, yes, but
most teachers probably
00:23:26.53\00:23:28.78
don't want to
hear it, yeah right,
00:23:28.79\00:23:30.51
depending on the
particular religious point
00:23:30.52\00:23:32.80
of view. So the real
area in the school where
00:23:32.81\00:23:34.47
free expression is to
be particularly defended
00:23:34.48\00:23:37.59
and watched out for
is with the students
00:23:37.60\00:23:39.23
and we have a low
level of restriction
00:23:39.24\00:23:43.59
that I think is
freelance because it's really
00:23:44.42\00:23:45.95
no law to back it
up but a low level of
00:23:45.96\00:23:48.69
restriction by
administrators and
00:23:48.70\00:23:50.56
individual teaches who
have shamed and forbidden
00:23:50.57\00:23:53.31
students from
speaking about or writing about
00:23:53.32\00:23:56.80
their faith. I
have an article from
00:23:56.81\00:23:59.45
John C.
Whitehead, at the Rutherford
00:24:00.49\00:24:01.46
foundation, it's just
come in from Liberty Magazine
00:24:01.47\00:24:05.05
I signed to him
and he's defended many
00:24:05.95\00:24:08.77
people in federal
courts on religious
00:24:08.78\00:24:12.19
expression issues
and he's quite concerned
00:24:12.20\00:24:15.42
particularly because I
think is it the non-circuit,
00:24:16.91\00:24:19.88
one in California, yes
non, yeah the non circuit
00:24:20.64\00:24:22.90
case in one of these
they attended the wording
00:24:22.91\00:24:28.32
is little ambiguous
see repeated but it's seems
00:24:28.33\00:24:31.56
the that they were
upholding the right
00:24:31.57\00:24:33.16
of the teachers to
use that the school to use
00:24:34.11\00:24:37.00
that discretion to
restrict individual
00:24:37.01\00:24:40.40
religious expression of
the students if it's offensive
00:24:40.41\00:24:43.30
to other students and
that is sort of fitted.
00:24:43.91\00:24:47.80
It's difficult with
that is that it comes down
00:24:47.81\00:24:50.53
to the discretion
of the teacher, yes,
00:24:50.54\00:24:53.96
who is having to
interpret this and they
00:24:54.62\00:24:57.66
is so much that goes into that,
00:24:57.67\00:24:59.27
the question is
well, is there any criteria
00:24:59.28\00:25:01.87
or principles or
guidelines to help teachers
00:25:01.88\00:25:04.18
to make those kind
of discretion area and
00:25:04.98\00:25:06.88
that's the need and
I am glad you brought
00:25:06.89\00:25:08.32
that out the Bush,
maybe not the Bush,
00:25:08.33\00:25:10.21
the Clinton
Administration do they credit,
00:25:10.22\00:25:12.09
printed up a little
white booklet of I think
00:25:14.03\00:25:15.67
of 30 or 40 pages
that they gave out to the
00:25:15.68\00:25:17.43
schools explaining
what religious expression
00:25:17.44\00:25:20.17
was allowed and I
think there is the,
00:25:20.18\00:25:21.40
a need to educate
the teachers because
00:25:21.41\00:25:23.93
goodness knows
much of the right wing
00:25:23.94\00:25:25.56
religious conservative
fund raising material that
00:25:26.40\00:25:29.47
goes out sort of
rabidly over the top that plays
00:25:29.48\00:25:31.92
on these very real
world cases of Overzealous
00:25:31.93\00:25:35.19
Teacher restricting religion.
00:25:35.20\00:25:36.51
And in one of these
cases, a young girl wanted
00:25:37.53\00:25:40.23
to present Jesus as a
Hero teacher said well
00:25:40.24\00:25:42.92
yes but you have to
do it to me in private
00:25:42.93\00:25:44.57
not in front of the students,
00:25:44.58\00:25:45.72
well that gave her
the idea that Jesus
00:25:45.73\00:25:47.99
was to be ashamed of
and of course it was pretty.
00:25:48.00\00:25:50.78
Well then Jesus is
not allow and she is not
00:25:50.79\00:25:52.59
allowed to talk
about like. Yeah and then,
00:25:52.60\00:25:55.17
the challenge here
for the free exercise of
00:25:55.18\00:25:59.60
religion of individual
students is that often
00:25:59.61\00:26:04.85
times if they want
to do something together
00:26:04.86\00:26:07.42
that will require
monitoring and oversight
00:26:07.99\00:26:10.43
of the teachers and
that is different than
00:26:10.78\00:26:15.48
an individual
student like in the case that
00:26:15.49\00:26:17.96
Lincoln just said
where the student wants to
00:26:18.65\00:26:20.91
express something
in an assignment and
00:26:20.92\00:26:23.83
within the bounds
of that assignment.
00:26:23.84\00:26:25.62
Public displays of religion
can be very problematic,
00:26:28.24\00:26:31.12
I read the Old
Testament of the Bible that
00:26:32.18\00:26:34.96
the corrupts sons of
high priest Eli actually
00:26:34.97\00:26:38.05
thought to take the
sacred Ark of the Covenant
00:26:38.06\00:26:40.89
with them into
battle thinking that as a
00:26:40.90\00:26:43.50
talisman it
would lead to victory.
00:26:43.51\00:26:45.20
It led instead to
defeat to capture of that
00:26:45.98\00:26:48.60
symbol by the
heathen an absolute shame
00:26:48.61\00:26:51.40
for God's people. I
do believe that in the
00:26:52.05\00:26:54.73
current debate of
religious display,
00:26:54.74\00:26:56.69
the proponents of
publicly displaying symbols
00:26:57.56\00:27:01.32
of religiosity
particularly Christian symbols
00:27:01.33\00:27:05.02
in America,
doing risking the same,
00:27:05.03\00:27:08.28
they were put to
shame what should really
00:27:09.25\00:27:11.25
be more legitimately
in the spiritual fear
00:27:11.26\00:27:13.63
and in the context of faith.
00:27:13.64\00:27:16.11
The issue that we
discussed in the program
00:27:17.72\00:27:19.70
of a cross in Cima,
California, of course it
00:27:19.71\00:27:22.74
really doesn't have
much of that baggage
00:27:22.75\00:27:24.58
but as it's
discussed by the high court
00:27:25.71\00:27:27.65
I'm sure they will do
it against the context
00:27:28.19\00:27:30.75
of those who
actually want overt religious
00:27:31.31\00:27:33.87
display perhaps even
a Christian American.
00:27:33.88\00:27:36.63
The constitution
forbids it. It is not something
00:27:37.81\00:27:41.13
that would come
under the rule breaking
00:27:41.14\00:27:42.63
separation of
church and state to allow
00:27:42.64\00:27:44.50
such open religious
display, but more important
00:27:44.51\00:27:48.13
I think than that
God does not encourage us
00:27:48.70\00:27:50.66
to share our
faith that way. Symbols,
00:27:50.67\00:27:53.27
icons, talismans,
things of the pagan mind
00:27:53.28\00:27:58.26
have contrived
and spiritual heart
00:27:59.29\00:28:00.72
in manners God's way.
00:28:00.73\00:28:02.00
For Liberty Insider
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:28:04.90\00:28:07.62