Welcome to the Liberty Insider,
00:00:21.56\00:00:23.29
this is the program
that brings you news,
00:00:23.64\00:00:25.80
views and discussion on
religious liberty issues.
00:00:25.81\00:00:29.03
My name is
Lincoln Steed, editor of
00:00:29.42\00:00:31.43
Liberty Magazine.
And my guest on the
00:00:31.44\00:00:33.73
program is Greg
Hamilton, President of
00:00:33.74\00:00:37.00
the Northwest
Religious Liberty Association.
00:00:37.01\00:00:39.22
Welcome Greg. Thank You.
00:00:40.02\00:00:40.99
You've been on the
program before it's
00:00:41.76\00:00:43.11
always very
stimulating to discuss
00:00:43.12\00:00:46.05
these things and
often we see it the same
00:00:46.06\00:00:48.07
way and often as
they should be, we have a
00:00:48.08\00:00:50.79
little bit different take on it.
00:00:50.80\00:00:51.87
Let's talk
about something that's
00:00:52.51\00:00:54.10
really preoccupied a
lot of religious liberty
00:00:54.11\00:00:56.24
discussions for
years. The growing power of
00:00:56.25\00:00:59.30
the religious right,
we used to call them,
00:00:59.31\00:01:01.72
the moral majority
as I think they once
00:01:03.47\00:01:05.37
called themselves.
And it's particularly
00:01:05.38\00:01:07.80
under the Bush Administration we
00:01:07.81\00:01:09.08
saw some very real
public policy effects
00:01:09.09\00:01:12.25
of this
movement. Where are we now
00:01:12.26\00:01:14.34
though, I don't hear
about it quite so much?
00:01:14.35\00:01:16.42
Well President
Bush sort of became the
00:01:16.81\00:01:18.81
titular head of the
religious right and so
00:01:18.82\00:01:20.71
therefore he
was, he embodied the
00:01:20.72\00:01:23.10
religious right, in
fact Pat Robertson even
00:01:23.11\00:01:24.91
equipped one time
he said, hey we don't
00:01:24.92\00:01:27.87
need the Christian
coalition, we don't
00:01:27.88\00:01:29.20
need the religious
right, George Bush is
00:01:29.21\00:01:30.79
the Christian coalition,
he is the religious right.
00:01:30.80\00:01:32.65
But now we see a
marginalization of
00:01:33.90\00:01:37.40
extremes in the
left and the right,
00:01:37.41\00:01:38.92
we're seeing a big
tent, a big political
00:01:38.93\00:01:43.37
ecumenical middle,
so to speak with the
00:01:43.38\00:01:46.07
advent of Barack
Obama and it wasn't
00:01:46.08\00:01:47.85
so much Barack
Obama as it was the
00:01:47.86\00:01:50.25
Advent really in
my thinking of two
00:01:50.26\00:01:52.46
religious figures
Jim Wallis, Editor of
00:01:52.47\00:01:55.10
Sojourners
Magazine who was considered
00:01:55.11\00:01:57.79
on the political left
but he is also pro-life
00:01:57.80\00:02:00.92
on the abortion
issue. And Rick Warren on
00:02:00.93\00:02:03.87
the right, who has
really moderated the
00:02:03.88\00:02:06.91
right in many
respects and taken up such
00:02:06.92\00:02:09.41
issues as the
environment as being important.
00:02:09.42\00:02:11.55
Yeah and I don't
think there was any,
00:02:11.56\00:02:13.27
certainly not just a
co-incidence that Rick
00:02:14.70\00:02:16.47
Warren took the prayer at the
00:02:16.48\00:02:18.39
inauguration and
that was his coming out
00:02:18.40\00:02:20.65
party if you feel
like. Sure. And not only
00:02:20.66\00:02:23.35
did Rick come to
the fall, and the
00:02:23.36\00:02:26.45
Sojourners
magazine, but we had the death
00:02:26.46\00:02:30.22
of Jerry Falwell
and who else faded away
00:02:30.23\00:02:34.75
I know we really
had a processing of the
00:02:34.76\00:02:36.65
guy, didn't we?
Yes. And I think in some
00:02:36.66\00:02:39.12
ways that, D.
James Kennedy of Coral
00:02:39.13\00:02:40.77
Ridge
Ministries, D. James Kennedy
00:02:40.78\00:02:41.75
that's who I was
thinking of. Yeah.
00:02:41.76\00:02:42.73
He wasn't in your
face really but he was a
00:02:43.04\00:02:47.37
true
conservative, he was very much
00:02:47.38\00:02:50.05
involved with the
nation's leaders and
00:02:50.06\00:02:51.94
pushing for many
years for the Jones
00:02:51.95\00:02:53.78
Bill for example
that wanted, and re-wrote
00:02:53.79\00:02:56.25
our nation's constitutional
history in the minds
00:02:56.26\00:02:58.23
of many faithful
supporters. Yeah.
00:02:58.24\00:03:01.71
And I had the privileged once to
00:03:02.09\00:03:03.20
meet with him in
his office and we went
00:03:03.21\00:03:04.68
over all of this
stuff and I was impressed
00:03:04.69\00:03:06.77
that he was a
genuine Christian gentleman
00:03:06.78\00:03:08.41
but wrong on his
history and misguided
00:03:08.42\00:03:11.82
on the way he wanted
to apply it to the US
00:03:11.83\00:03:14.42
government. He take
us clear back to the
00:03:14.43\00:03:16.18
Puritan founding, as well as the
00:03:16.19\00:03:17.22
constitutional
founding. Right and yeah his
00:03:17.23\00:03:21.07
passing definitely
was significant and Jerry
00:03:21.08\00:03:23.90
Falwell and I
think at the same time my
00:03:23.91\00:03:26.51
judgment, we came
to an end of an era
00:03:26.78\00:03:30.27
because George
Bush's policies even
00:03:30.28\00:03:32.14
before he left office
was seem to be a little
00:03:32.15\00:03:34.47
miss forgotten and
rightly or wrongly the
00:03:34.48\00:03:37.47
religious right was
seemed to be not just
00:03:37.48\00:03:39.26
partners with
him. They were almost
00:03:39.27\00:03:41.42
becoming, I think
in someways they were
00:03:41.85\00:03:43.63
blamed for pushing
us into the Iraq war,
00:03:43.64\00:03:46.14
giving it a new
crusade sort of a spin.
00:03:46.36\00:03:50.39
So looking at it
now and hence so, we can
00:03:51.16\00:03:53.97
see what caused their
demise, their fall from
00:03:53.98\00:03:58.18
grace, why Rick
Warren and the others
00:03:58.19\00:04:00.15
rose, but the net
effect is it's a different
00:04:00.16\00:04:03.02
leadership now,
it's a different form of
00:04:03.03\00:04:05.18
religious political expression,
00:04:05.19\00:04:06.83
it's more liberal,
it's more broad-based.
00:04:07.19\00:04:09.84
Well and it's
created somewhat of a civil
00:04:10.64\00:04:12.67
religious middle,
what do I mean by civil
00:04:12.68\00:04:14.46
religion, I mean that
basically there is this
00:04:14.47\00:04:17.47
non-categorical religion
that's more nationalized
00:04:18.21\00:04:23.53
and anything to do with American
00:04:24.01\00:04:26.25
National
Patriotic symbols but at the
00:04:26.68\00:04:28.33
same time joined with
religiosity in America.
00:04:28.34\00:04:31.98
Some of our
traditional mores are
00:04:31.99\00:04:35.24
part of our traditional
culture, and Jim Wallis
00:04:35.25\00:04:39.20
has been a great
advocate of this and
00:04:39.21\00:04:41.21
he has put forth a
book called the Great
00:04:41.22\00:04:44.41
Awakening and he
calls it America's
00:04:44.42\00:04:46.30
third great awakening.
And he says essentially
00:04:46.31\00:04:49.02
and even George
Bush adopted this
00:04:49.03\00:04:50.53
language when he was President.
00:04:50.54\00:04:51.74
He said that
America is experiencing it's
00:04:52.22\00:04:54.19
third great
awakening, he said one of his
00:04:54.20\00:04:55.96
press speeches
or meetings with the
00:04:55.97\00:04:58.53
press a few years ago
and I thought that was
00:04:58.54\00:05:00.95
interesting.
Because clearly what we're
00:05:00.96\00:05:03.80
seeing instead of
the Decline and Fall of
00:05:03.81\00:05:06.35
Christian America,
Jon Meacham suggest
00:05:06.36\00:05:08.78
in Newsweek magazine
we see just the opposite,
00:05:08.79\00:05:10.83
in fact in his
article, in his article of
00:05:11.14\00:05:13.86
Newsweek that was
put out few months
00:05:13.87\00:05:16.39
ago The Decline
and Fall of Christian
00:05:16.40\00:05:18.29
America, what he's
basically saying is
00:05:18.30\00:05:20.97
that the extreme elements of the
00:05:20.98\00:05:23.09
Christian
nation movement in this
00:05:23.10\00:05:25.31
country lead by
Ralph Reed, Pat Robertson,
00:05:25.32\00:05:27.30
Jerry Falwell, has
fallen by the wayside
00:05:27.31\00:05:29.59
and now what we see,
he says in this article
00:05:29.60\00:05:31.51
is this grand
political ecumenical middle
00:05:31.87\00:05:35.05
that has come
together in a civil
00:05:35.49\00:05:36.73
religious way,
especially with the
00:05:36.74\00:05:39.18
Advent of Barack Obama and it's
00:05:39.19\00:05:41.35
created, in my
thinking and here's
00:05:41.36\00:05:43.55
the danger I see is
a, is a censorial or
00:05:43.56\00:05:48.62
censoring type of
political correctness
00:05:48.63\00:05:51.23
that in my opinion,
he was gonna use that
00:05:51.91\00:05:53.42
it's become
politically correct, can lead
00:05:53.43\00:05:55.62
really towards
all kinds of untoward
00:05:55.63\00:05:58.86
and bad laws
including the Sunday law.
00:05:58.87\00:06:02.00
And the reason why
I say that is remember
00:06:02.01\00:06:03.95
when Christ was
crucified it was the
00:06:03.96\00:06:06.26
political and
religious left, the Sadducees,
00:06:06.67\00:06:08.91
who united with the
political and religious
00:06:09.30\00:06:11.27
right
establishment of Pharisees to
00:06:11.28\00:06:13.30
crucify Christ for what cause?
00:06:13.31\00:06:15.25
For the sake of
saving the nation,
00:06:15.66\00:06:17.89
Caiaphas said. we must eliminate
00:06:17.90\00:06:21.39
this guy in order to
save the nation and it
00:06:21.40\00:06:22.90
says in John chapter 11. Sure.
00:06:22.91\00:06:24.87
And even before the
shift in the religious
00:06:25.23\00:06:28.43
political religious
faction in this country
00:06:28.44\00:06:30.09
they were saying
such things that for the
00:06:30.10\00:06:32.55
good of the country we
need to do certain things.
00:06:32.56\00:06:34.47
I even heard a quote
that I would, even if
00:06:34.70\00:06:36.88
I could remember in
it's exact terminology
00:06:36.89\00:06:40.29
and who said it I
wouldn't repeat it
00:06:40.30\00:06:41.82
exactly but it
was something to the
00:06:41.83\00:06:43.09
effect one of the
religious right leader
00:06:43.10\00:06:45.55
said that our
cause is so important the
00:06:45.56\00:06:48.07
threat is so great
and America's need is so
00:06:48.08\00:06:50.73
great but we may
need to do things that
00:06:50.74\00:06:53.06
are almost
unthinkable to gain our ends.
00:06:53.07\00:06:55.15
And once you get
to that point you've
00:06:55.70\00:06:58.71
reached the danger
flashpoint of mind.
00:06:58.72\00:07:00.32
Now I'm not suggesting this,
00:07:00.33\00:07:01.58
somehow and I'm not suggesting a
00:07:01.59\00:07:03.04
conspiracy theory
here, not a conspiracy,
00:07:03.05\00:07:04.99
where by religious and political
00:07:05.00\00:07:06.35
persecution is
imminent. I'm just suggesting
00:07:06.36\00:07:09.08
that what I think we're
seeing is a trend that's
00:07:09.09\00:07:13.09
subtle but has
started. Now who knows this
00:07:13.10\00:07:15.94
big political and
ecumenical middle,
00:07:15.95\00:07:17.66
this big tent may
collapse and you may
00:07:17.67\00:07:20.13
see a return of the extremes
00:07:20.14\00:07:21.48
of the left and the right.
00:07:21.49\00:07:23.45
Whether it's not MSNBC or Fox
00:07:24.47\00:07:26.60
which shouts the
most against each other
00:07:26.61\00:07:28.81
what you see is
this, this marginalization
00:07:28.82\00:07:32.14
you can see it with
the Republican Party,
00:07:32.15\00:07:33.62
where are they? I
mean if it's lead by
00:07:33.63\00:07:36.06
Rush Limbaugh
or Newt Gingrich or
00:07:36.07\00:07:38.23
whoever else, you're
not seeing it really go
00:07:38.24\00:07:40.68
anywhere right now
and it may return with
00:07:40.69\00:07:42.64
a vengeance if there is some
00:07:42.65\00:07:43.70
faltering steps politically.
00:07:43.71\00:07:45.04
That's true. I
recently did a talk on the
00:07:45.28\00:07:48.08
religion in the
media and it's part of the
00:07:48.09\00:07:50.21
study for that
looked up different sources
00:07:50.22\00:07:52.46
and one common
data made an interesting
00:07:52.47\00:07:54.48
observation but I
hadn't thought about
00:07:54.49\00:07:56.72
before but I think it's true.
00:07:56.73\00:07:58.86
He said you know we've had the
00:07:59.46\00:08:01.39
traditional
religious right, Jerry Falwell
00:08:01.40\00:08:03.22
and so on that are
representing religion
00:08:03.23\00:08:05.66
to the media hard
rock conservatives.
00:08:05.67\00:08:07.35
We have then the more liberal
00:08:07.86\00:08:09.34
religionists who are
in the media pushing for
00:08:09.62\00:08:12.03
political power.
And we tend to think
00:08:12.04\00:08:14.21
of them as two
distinct strengths but
00:08:14.22\00:08:17.50
this person said
they're basically the
00:08:17.74\00:08:20.06
same side of the
coin. And I believe that so,
00:08:20.07\00:08:23.88
because what they are
of people of religious
00:08:23.89\00:08:26.08
faith prepared to use
the believers of power
00:08:26.09\00:08:28.54
to gain their
ends. And whether they're
00:08:28.55\00:08:30.30
more liberal, conservative or
00:08:30.31\00:08:31.93
whatever, it's still
affection that's quite
00:08:31.94\00:08:34.59
separate from
people of spirituality that
00:08:34.60\00:08:36.60
understand the right
relationship as where
00:08:36.61\00:08:38.43
it's trying to emphasis
between church and state.
00:08:38.44\00:08:40.42
And you know this
Decline of Christian
00:08:41.06\00:08:43.68
America or the Great Awakening,
00:08:43.69\00:08:45.31
I think these are
reasonable descriptions
00:08:46.33\00:08:49.04
to what's going
on. But I wish we would
00:08:49.05\00:08:51.91
always make a
distinction between
00:08:51.92\00:08:53.65
religiosity in
society and spirituality.
00:08:54.12\00:08:57.06
And, well that's
what Jon Meacham points
00:08:57.78\00:09:00.16
out, he says in
this article titled the
00:09:00.17\00:09:02.73
Decline and Fall of
Christian America Newsweek.
00:09:02.74\00:09:04.58
He basically is
saying that based on several
00:09:05.06\00:09:08.52
surveys pew form
on religion and public
00:09:08.53\00:09:10.45
life in Gallup that
what you're seeing in
00:09:10.46\00:09:12.60
America is a fall
off of traditional
00:09:12.61\00:09:16.10
mainstream church
going and more home
00:09:16.11\00:09:19.48
churches and
more individualistic
00:09:19.49\00:09:21.15
type spirituality. And there are
00:09:21.16\00:09:24.29
countries
becoming more pluralistic,
00:09:24.30\00:09:25.92
in fact on our
previous program we
00:09:25.93\00:09:28.15
talked about
the Oregon Workplace
00:09:28.16\00:09:29.41
Religious Freedom
Act, well the reason
00:09:29.42\00:09:31.23
why these workplace
religious freedom acts
00:09:31.24\00:09:32.89
are so necessary
both in federal and state
00:09:32.90\00:09:34.54
levels is because
our country is becoming
00:09:34.55\00:09:36.01
more diverse, more pluralistic.
00:09:36.34\00:09:38.35
I mean there is
new denominations,
00:09:38.36\00:09:40.38
new thinkings that
are lead by charismatic
00:09:40.39\00:09:43.01
individuals
everyday, hundreds of groups in
00:09:43.02\00:09:47.18
this country. Yeah.
You're right and this
00:09:47.19\00:09:51.01
pluralism in my view is really,
00:09:51.02\00:09:53.17
the constitution is
a great strength but
00:09:54.51\00:09:56.06
I think it's the
very pluralism that has
00:09:56.07\00:09:57.87
kept religion
denatured if you like, because
00:09:57.88\00:10:03.68
when you have any monolithic or
00:10:03.69\00:10:06.46
majoritarian
religious people it's natural
00:10:06.78\00:10:08.87
tendency is to then
restrict and squeeze
00:10:08.88\00:10:11.70
its opposition they
can do it more reasonably.
00:10:11.71\00:10:13.55
So I think the
more pluralism we have
00:10:14.19\00:10:16.07
and we tending
that way, and not us
00:10:16.08\00:10:17.53
within
Christianity. Many non-Christian
00:10:18.10\00:10:20.34
groups, most
particularly Islam is
00:10:20.35\00:10:22.34
on the rise. While
you get a certain reaction
00:10:22.35\00:10:25.23
in the War on Terror,
it's created a sort of
00:10:26.34\00:10:28.47
Christian American
feel, I think it generally
00:10:28.48\00:10:30.90
keeps the whole
religious factions on
00:10:30.91\00:10:33.50
their toes and not
prepared to restrict
00:10:33.51\00:10:36.88
others in case
they're restricted.
00:10:36.89\00:10:38.59
Now is it the death
of the secular humanists
00:10:39.66\00:10:41.73
left, no I don't think
it is, the extreme left.
00:10:41.74\00:10:44.32
Not at all, but I
think what we're seeing is
00:10:44.58\00:10:47.23
that again that
extreme left viewpoint is being
00:10:47.24\00:10:50.88
marginalized now
you may say okay we
00:10:50.89\00:10:52.82
don't see that with
the gay marriage issue,
00:10:52.83\00:10:54.40
we don't
necessarily see that with the
00:10:54.75\00:10:55.89
abortion issue but
what we we're seeing
00:10:55.90\00:10:57.80
is especially with
the abortion issue,
00:10:57.81\00:10:59.67
you are seeing more
of it coming together
00:10:59.68\00:11:01.31
of basically what
the senses generally
00:11:01.32\00:11:04.43
states, which is
that Americans are both
00:11:04.44\00:11:07.54
pro-choice and
pro-life depending
00:11:07.55\00:11:09.23
on which questions are asked and
00:11:09.24\00:11:10.73
what the situation
is. Right. You know.
00:11:10.74\00:11:12.86
Well we live off the
surveys and too often
00:11:12.87\00:11:18.86
you know the
statistics are given out but
00:11:18.87\00:11:20.67
we should look at
the question, you can ask
00:11:20.68\00:11:22.28
questions and sort
of get the answers you
00:11:22.29\00:11:24.01
want and people
will respond according to
00:11:24.02\00:11:26.51
the question where
they might have under
00:11:26.52\00:11:28.10
different circumstances,
quite a different view
00:11:28.36\00:11:29.93
on the same topic.
Yes. But you know so
00:11:29.94\00:11:34.14
where do we go back
to our original point,
00:11:34.15\00:11:36.10
where are we heading
on this new religious
00:11:36.11\00:11:39.76
phenomenon. It
clearly got shifted,
00:11:39.77\00:11:42.48
whether it was just
a luck step with the
00:11:43.29\00:11:45.32
election, I don't
think so but it's pretty much
00:11:45.33\00:11:47.68
coincided with
the shift from the
00:11:48.23\00:11:50.00
Republican
regime of George Bush to
00:11:50.01\00:11:53.55
the more liberal
democratic regime of,
00:11:53.89\00:11:55.89
and Barack
Obama. Yeah and I don't
00:11:55.90\00:11:56.87
think really much
has changed because as
00:11:56.88\00:11:58.46
Jon Meacham points
out in other article
00:11:58.47\00:12:00.33
Newsweek called
America The Conservative,
00:12:00.34\00:12:02.21
how President Obama
might govern a center
00:12:02.62\00:12:04.73
right nation, he
argues that America
00:12:04.74\00:12:06.99
is essentially is center right.
00:12:07.34\00:12:08.89
And through
many surveys and many
00:12:09.54\00:12:11.26
polls, this has been
demonstrated to be true.
00:12:11.27\00:12:13.15
So Obama has to
govern somewhat to
00:12:13.16\00:12:15.92
the right of
center. Which I find amazing
00:12:15.93\00:12:18.67
because it
doesn't matter who gets
00:12:18.68\00:12:21.06
elected president,
doesn't matter how he
00:12:21.07\00:12:23.08
gets in, in terms
of catering to his
00:12:23.09\00:12:25.20
extreme left in
his party while he's
00:12:25.92\00:12:27.35
running, he has
to govern from the
00:12:27.36\00:12:29.39
center in the
right which Bill Clinton
00:12:29.40\00:12:31.64
was forced to do but
of course I was about
00:12:31.65\00:12:33.02
to comment, that
they, that was used sort of
00:12:33.03\00:12:35.95
against him like
he'd outmaneuver,
00:12:35.96\00:12:37.47
the Republicans have become more
00:12:37.48\00:12:38.74
conservative through there.
00:12:38.75\00:12:39.72
And he has been blamed for the
00:12:40.42\00:12:41.77
Republicans going
even more right way
00:12:41.78\00:12:43.63
but I think it was
just a phenomenon of
00:12:43.99\00:12:45.68
what you spoke
about. We'll be back after
00:12:45.69\00:12:47.72
the break to
continue this discussion which
00:12:47.73\00:12:49.82
is very
stimulating, where are we going
00:12:49.83\00:12:51.83
with the religious
right, the religious
00:12:51.84\00:12:53.19
movement in this
country in the United States.
00:12:53.20\00:12:55.67
One-hundred
years, a long time to do
00:13:03.89\00:13:06.84
anything much less
publish a magazine,
00:13:06.85\00:13:09.24
but this year Liberty,
the Seventh-day Adventist
00:13:09.65\00:13:12.72
voice of religious
freedom, celebrates
00:13:12.73\00:13:14.89
one hundred years of
doing what it does best,
00:13:14.90\00:13:17.68
collecting,
analyzing, and reporting the ebb
00:13:18.04\00:13:21.01
and flow of
religious expression around the
00:13:21.02\00:13:23.21
world, issue after
issue, Liberty has taken on the
00:13:23.22\00:13:27.03
tough assignments,
tracking down threats
00:13:27.04\00:13:29.40
to religious freedom
and exposing the work
00:13:29.41\00:13:31.24
of the devil in
every corner of the globe.
00:13:31.25\00:13:33.59
Governmental
interference, personal attacks,
00:13:34.24\00:13:36.51
corporate
assaults, even religious
00:13:36.99\00:13:38.81
freedom issues
sequestered within the
00:13:38.82\00:13:40.42
Church community
itself has been clearly
00:13:40.43\00:13:42.76
and honestly exposed.
Liberty exists for one
00:13:42.77\00:13:46.34
purpose to help God's
people maintain that all
00:13:46.35\00:13:49.69
important
separation of Church and State,
00:13:49.70\00:13:51.99
while recognizing
the dangers inherent
00:13:52.41\00:13:54.57
in such a struggle.
During the past century,
00:13:54.58\00:13:57.37
Liberty has experienced
challenges of its own,
00:13:57.62\00:13:59.76
but it remains on the
job. Thanks to the inspired
00:14:00.22\00:14:03.61
leadership of a long
line of dedicated Adventist
00:14:03.62\00:14:05.93
Editors, three of whom
represent almost half of
00:14:05.94\00:14:08.49
the publications
existence and the
00:14:08.50\00:14:10.47
foresight of a little
woman from New England.
00:14:10.48\00:14:12.92
One hundred years of
struggle, one hundred
00:14:13.59\00:14:16.13
years of victories,
religious freedom isn't
00:14:16.14\00:14:18.97
just about political machines
00:14:18.98\00:14:20.81
and cultural
prejudices. It's about people,
00:14:20.82\00:14:23.93
fighting for the right
to serve the God they love
00:14:24.50\00:14:27.16
as their hearts and
the Holy Spirit dictate.
00:14:27.47\00:14:30.46
Thanks to the prayers
and generous support of
00:14:30.78\00:14:32.99
Seventh-day
Adventists everywhere.
00:14:33.00\00:14:34.92
Liberty will continue
to accomplish its work of
00:14:35.25\00:14:37.66
providing timely
information, spirit-filled
00:14:37.67\00:14:40.11
inspiration, and
heaven sent encouragement to
00:14:40.12\00:14:42.94
all who long to live
and work in a world bound
00:14:42.95\00:14:47.02
together by the God ordained
00:14:47.03\00:14:48.82
bonds of religious freedom.
00:14:48.84\00:14:51.20
Welcome back to the
show. Before the break we
00:15:02.10\00:15:05.07
were talking about
very clear shifts in
00:15:05.08\00:15:09.35
public activity of
the religious right who
00:15:09.70\00:15:13.44
seem to be
fading, and now the new
00:15:13.60\00:15:15.95
moderate, the
sort of religious life,
00:15:15.96\00:15:18.53
ecumenical and
political middle, yes.
00:15:18.54\00:15:20.28
But we've been
talking about at some
00:15:20.93\00:15:22.80
length and from a
distinctly American
00:15:22.81\00:15:25.09
point of view,
United States point of view
00:15:25.10\00:15:26.71
but you know
the religious right,
00:15:27.20\00:15:29.01
the moral majority,
all of this is a very
00:15:29.02\00:15:31.23
American phenomenon
and I know as an Australian
00:15:31.24\00:15:34.86
even, in
Australia they don't look at
00:15:34.87\00:15:37.89
religion the
same way in fact they
00:15:37.90\00:15:40.19
sometimes feel a bit
of embarrassed to talk
00:15:40.20\00:15:41.78
about religion
publicly, that's what
00:15:41.79\00:15:43.54
always good. But
how can we explain this
00:15:43.55\00:15:47.46
to the rest of the
world and add their
00:15:47.47\00:15:49.86
ramifications to
this for world events.
00:15:49.87\00:15:52.63
I know, I must
keep talking on this,
00:15:53.98\00:15:56.55
I know the United
States often thinks
00:15:56.56\00:15:58.21
we're the center of
the universe, we're not
00:15:58.22\00:16:00.13
necessarily on
everything but more and more
00:16:00.14\00:16:02.55
when the United
States takes a lead
00:16:02.56\00:16:04.22
many countries
either directly follow or
00:16:04.23\00:16:06.71
drawn along in its wake.
So if there's a religious
00:16:06.72\00:16:09.66
shift here what
implications does this
00:16:09.67\00:16:12.43
have for, well I find
it interesting if you tie
00:16:12.44\00:16:14.36
at the Barack Obama
the phenomenon I see
00:16:14.37\00:16:16.87
happening is based on
several things the first
00:16:16.88\00:16:20.72
is that there was a
worldwide poll taken
00:16:20.73\00:16:23.04
on who Obama is, what
do you think of Obama.
00:16:23.49\00:16:25.76
And the poll
came back showing that
00:16:26.20\00:16:28.62
Obama ranks higher
then Jesus Christ in
00:16:29.30\00:16:32.31
popularity. Now
that's pretty amazing.
00:16:32.32\00:16:34.77
So he's viewed as
someone, he hasn't
00:16:34.78\00:16:36.78
sold as many books though.
00:16:36.79\00:16:37.76
Yeah that's true.
He's viewed as messianic
00:16:37.77\00:16:41.70
by many people
in the international
00:16:42.64\00:16:44.21
community even
here in United States
00:16:44.22\00:16:45.86
which is not
necessarily good for
00:16:46.67\00:16:48.87
presidential
powers, so to speak in our
00:16:49.57\00:16:51.27
checks and balances
in our, well he is a
00:16:51.28\00:16:53.46
charismatic
leader. He is, and he is
00:16:53.47\00:16:55.79
and clearly his
speech in Cairo demonstrated
00:16:55.80\00:16:58.03
that recently
in Egypt especially
00:16:58.04\00:17:00.54
emphasizing trying
to build new bridges
00:17:01.13\00:17:03.91
with Islam but he's
doing the same thing
00:17:03.92\00:17:06.01
essentially that
Pope Benedict XVI has
00:17:06.02\00:17:07.92
been trying to do
which Pope John Paul
00:17:08.10\00:17:10.12
II did before him
in which you see as you
00:17:10.13\00:17:13.00
see the United
States and Rome sort of
00:17:13.01\00:17:15.53
walking in lock
step and what you see is
00:17:15.54\00:17:18.30
even in Vatican main newspaper,
00:17:18.65\00:17:21.10
they've been
singing Obama's praises big
00:17:21.66\00:17:23.49
time both for
his support for peace
00:17:23.50\00:17:26.48
worldwide, his support for Aids
00:17:26.49\00:17:29.02
in third world
countries specifically
00:17:30.28\00:17:32.02
in Africa, hides
away, which President Bush
00:17:32.03\00:17:34.61
did as well in fact he
was the one that really
00:17:34.62\00:17:36.09
expanded it for the first time.
00:17:36.10\00:17:37.78
So we can't
count Bush out of that,
00:17:38.09\00:17:39.36
we got to be
supportive of and give
00:17:39.37\00:17:42.05
him due credit for
that. But basically what
00:17:42.06\00:17:45.22
you're seeing is,
singing his praises for
00:17:45.23\00:17:49.08
being sensitive to
the poor and homeless in
00:17:49.53\00:17:52.40
this country, in
the United States.
00:17:52.41\00:17:54.08
Basically taking
on the mantra or the
00:17:54.68\00:17:57.40
message the appeal
of the US conference of
00:17:57.41\00:18:00.32
Catholic Bishops. And so you see
00:18:00.33\00:18:03.17
somewhat of a melding, a coming
00:18:03.18\00:18:06.14
together even
though Pope Benedict XVI
00:18:06.15\00:18:09.31
and Obama have
not officially met yet
00:18:09.32\00:18:11.86
I find that's
interesting that even though
00:18:12.33\00:18:13.96
Benedict XVI is
very conservative.
00:18:14.52\00:18:17.07
Nevertheless you're
seeing when it comes
00:18:18.19\00:18:21.16
to world and
international issues,
00:18:21.17\00:18:22.97
a meeting of the minds maybe not
00:18:23.38\00:18:24.71
necessarily an
abortion issue but
00:18:24.72\00:18:26.17
Obama says that he
is opened for middle
00:18:26.34\00:18:28.60
ground dialogue.
And so this center
00:18:28.61\00:18:32.26
right nation which
we are as America you
00:18:32.27\00:18:34.76
can see it
happening in Europe with
00:18:34.77\00:18:36.48
elections happening
over there where even
00:18:36.49\00:18:39.40
right wing
politicians are starting to make
00:18:40.25\00:18:42.09
inroads even in a
very secular humanist left
00:18:42.10\00:18:45.19
Europe. Well maybe
both of these leaders
00:18:45.62\00:18:48.09
one religious and
one secular maybe they're
00:18:48.10\00:18:50.91
seized on the, not
only the imagination
00:18:50.92\00:18:53.26
but the need for
change around the world.
00:18:53.27\00:18:55.13
Yeah. There's no
question the world is
00:18:55.14\00:18:57.39
experiencing
religious resurgence,
00:18:57.40\00:18:59.72
not necessarily
is spirituality which
00:18:59.73\00:19:01.27
wears but
religious activity is on the
00:19:01.28\00:19:03.82
increase and the
Pope is stepping into that
00:19:03.83\00:19:06.27
and like it or not,
and we, you and I would
00:19:06.94\00:19:10.72
have to prophecy on
this, we see him as,
00:19:10.73\00:19:13.38
he is becoming a
leader and others
00:19:13.39\00:19:15.24
follow him. And
Obama as before the
00:19:15.95\00:19:18.77
elections remember
he went to Europe and
00:19:18.78\00:19:20.31
they were gushing
over him and then in
00:19:20.32\00:19:22.68
Cairo, didn't
someone called out during the
00:19:23.08\00:19:25.04
speech, Obama we
love you, yes, yes.
00:19:25.05\00:19:27.10
Since when has that happened to,
00:19:27.51\00:19:29.03
well on thousands
basically said the
00:19:29.04\00:19:30.53
same thing in Germany, yeah.
00:19:30.54\00:19:31.74
so and the right wing
pundits that I listen to,
00:19:32.11\00:19:35.59
I hear they
like to mock that but
00:19:35.60\00:19:36.85
I wouldn't, how
could it only, that's a
00:19:36.86\00:19:37.92
wonderful thing to
have a leader of one
00:19:37.93\00:19:39.41
country so loved
around the world.
00:19:39.42\00:19:40.85
But the world whether
it's secular or religious
00:19:41.26\00:19:44.78
I think is in a
mood to follow, they need
00:19:44.79\00:19:47.47
leadership, yeah
right. And of course I think
00:19:47.48\00:19:49.80
again of prophesy
because it says men's
00:19:49.81\00:19:52.29
hearts failing with
the fear and leaders
00:19:52.30\00:19:54.49
troubled, as to know
what to do, this is the
00:19:54.97\00:19:56.97
moment when something
needs to be interjected,
00:19:56.98\00:19:59.97
to set a direction
and the likelihood is very
00:19:59.98\00:20:02.70
high but what we've
seen on the religious
00:20:02.71\00:20:04.83
right and the
distress of nations that are
00:20:04.84\00:20:07.13
very high that
there will be some grand
00:20:07.14\00:20:08.72
use that word, I
think, grand coalition.
00:20:08.89\00:20:11.48
It could easily
sort of maybe benignly at
00:20:11.93\00:20:16.26
first but easily
sort of push toward an
00:20:16.27\00:20:18.46
acceptable manner of
religion and the civil
00:20:18.47\00:20:21.14
power that could
end up compelling people
00:20:21.15\00:20:24.68
on the margins,
slash the remnant, a right
00:20:24.69\00:20:30.10
remnant pushing them
to obey your religious
00:20:30.11\00:20:33.55
dictate that really is improper.
00:20:33.56\00:20:35.26
John
Micklethwait, which is really a
00:20:36.39\00:20:39.61
weird name but he's
quite a distinguished
00:20:39.62\00:20:41.91
gentleman and
Adrian Wooldridge they
00:20:41.92\00:20:44.09
write for
Economist Magazine and John
00:20:44.10\00:20:46.71
Micklethwait is
the chief editor of
00:20:46.72\00:20:48.83
Economist Magazine
probably the most in
00:20:48.84\00:20:50.56
fact rated recently
in Time Magazine as the
00:20:50.57\00:20:53.64
oh no it was in
Atlantic Monthly as
00:20:53.65\00:20:56.46
taking over the popularity and
00:20:56.87\00:20:58.04
magazines such as Newsweek Time,
00:20:58.57\00:20:59.97
it's making money
all they going into,
00:20:59.98\00:21:01.57
via sales. So
it's British magazine
00:21:03.07\00:21:06.15
but it covers all
the nations of the world
00:21:06.16\00:21:08.04
economically and
politically and this
00:21:08.05\00:21:10.41
book they've
written called God is back,
00:21:10.42\00:21:12.40
how the global revival
of faith is changing in
00:21:12.41\00:21:14.86
the world. They
basically say that the
00:21:14.87\00:21:16.65
secular humanist
left, the Marxists and
00:21:16.66\00:21:19.07
socialists left has
basically rendered in
00:21:19.08\00:21:22.06
it's last breath,
gasp, it's last breath and
00:21:22.26\00:21:25.99
I find that's
interesting because they are
00:21:26.00\00:21:27.31
basically saying
that the American model
00:21:27.32\00:21:29.07
of religious
freedom is what the world is
00:21:29.61\00:21:31.24
clambering for.
Well of course the Pope
00:21:31.25\00:21:32.89
is busy saying this in Europe.
00:21:32.90\00:21:34.72
Even using the
separation of church and state.
00:21:34.73\00:21:36.71
An amazing thing,
recommending this to
00:21:36.72\00:21:38.85
Europe as the ideal model, now.
00:21:38.86\00:21:41.19
Pushing it we know
what he needs by that,
00:21:41.20\00:21:42.64
it's not, it's not
the American model of
00:21:42.65\00:21:44.65
separation of church
and state by any means.
00:21:44.66\00:21:46.20
Right. But at
the moment, well in
00:21:46.56\00:21:49.95
another discussion we
were talking about the
00:21:49.96\00:21:51.90
changing
religious make up on the
00:21:51.91\00:21:55.39
Supreme Court, now
it'll be six out of nine
00:21:55.40\00:21:57.72
Roman Catholics which
is constitutionally fine,
00:21:57.73\00:22:00.05
but what it's
certainly shows is the success
00:22:00.69\00:22:02.96
of Catholic
adherence in United States.
00:22:03.39\00:22:05.85
So the Pope would
have to be very happy
00:22:06.15\00:22:07.90
with that, it's not
worked to the disadvantage.
00:22:07.91\00:22:09.75
Yeah, Economist
Magazine called that
00:22:10.28\00:22:11.74
in fact Woolridge
himself, call it the
00:22:11.75\00:22:14.23
Papal Court.
Right. Yes. Some what, but
00:22:14.24\00:22:17.32
it is interesting
that you know hundred
00:22:17.33\00:22:19.75
years ago other Popes
said that this idea of
00:22:19.76\00:22:23.59
separation of church
and state and religious
00:22:23.60\00:22:25.21
freedom was a
pernicious idea. Yes.
00:22:25.22\00:22:27.23
Something that
affect, where the current
00:22:27.24\00:22:29.30
Pope says that this
is an ideal model and we
00:22:29.31\00:22:33.13
could know perhaps
based on history that
00:22:33.14\00:22:35.34
they could act
differently in other
00:22:35.35\00:22:36.74
times but right here and
now, that's a good thing.
00:22:36.75\00:22:38.89
I think it's a
little moment of opportunity
00:22:39.47\00:22:42.85
for the freedom
that this separation of
00:22:43.81\00:22:45.99
church and state
gives for us to proclaim all
00:22:46.00\00:22:48.41
around the world.
I've given a sermon
00:22:48.42\00:22:51.12
recently where I
invoke a piece of
00:22:51.13\00:22:54.06
literature that I
was most impressed by
00:22:54.07\00:22:55.65
Charles Dickens' A
Tale of Two Cities.
00:22:55.66\00:22:57.27
And I do believe
we still in that model
00:22:57.72\00:22:59.98
where as he began
that book which was
00:22:59.99\00:23:01.79
set at the time of
the opening of the French
00:23:01.80\00:23:03.29
Revolution,
horrible time for Europe.
00:23:03.30\00:23:05.03
He said it was
the best of times and
00:23:05.51\00:23:07.47
the worst of
times. And so what we've
00:23:07.48\00:23:10.35
just described is an incredible
00:23:10.36\00:23:12.03
restructuring and
realigning of religious
00:23:12.04\00:23:16.02
and political
forces which likely will
00:23:16.03\00:23:18.04
bring some final
political prophetic events.
00:23:18.05\00:23:21.88
But right here
and now it's a time of
00:23:22.18\00:23:23.73
opportunity as never before.
00:23:23.74\00:23:25.56
I think Rome with
Benedict and others
00:23:26.13\00:23:28.28
are somewhat forcing
not necessary forcing
00:23:28.29\00:23:31.12
but leading the way
and forcing the hand
00:23:31.13\00:23:34.10
of Obama in terms
of his domestic views
00:23:34.11\00:23:38.91
but when it comes
to political leadership
00:23:38.92\00:23:40.51
Obama has somewhat
caused Rome to have
00:23:40.52\00:23:43.75
to rethink and shift
to the middle as well in
00:23:43.76\00:23:45.89
terms of it's
thinking and it's policies.
00:23:45.90\00:23:47.95
So I think what
we see here clearly,
00:23:49.11\00:23:51.59
especially when
Pope Benedict XVI talks
00:23:52.27\00:23:54.91
about the
separation of church and state
00:23:54.92\00:23:56.18
what does he mean by
that? I mean when he visited
00:23:56.19\00:23:57.93
America Jon
Meacham on that day, he's
00:23:57.94\00:24:00.01
getting off the
plane and he's watching the
00:24:00.02\00:24:01.93
screen and TV in
the airport and he's
00:24:01.94\00:24:04.65
watching the Pope
get off and the same time
00:24:04.66\00:24:06.47
he is on his
Bluetooth talking to Washington
00:24:06.48\00:24:09.34
Post and they were
doing a screening on
00:24:09.35\00:24:11.97
the Internet of that
event and as they met
00:24:11.98\00:24:14.87
together at the
tarmac in the airport.
00:24:14.88\00:24:16.22
And Jon Meacham
says of course I mean
00:24:16.85\00:24:19.42
Pope Benedict
XVI gonna talk about
00:24:20.27\00:24:21.33
separation of
church and state religious
00:24:21.34\00:24:22.75
freedom, but come
on, come on he said,
00:24:22.76\00:24:25.04
he is the Pope and
this is the Catholic church
00:24:25.39\00:24:27.48
then he started
laughing and then he
00:24:27.98\00:24:29.62
started quoting
Madison about the
00:24:29.63\00:24:33.68
people models of
the worst governmental
00:24:33.69\00:24:35.73
model in his view.
And so, Pope Benedict XVI
00:24:35.74\00:24:40.26
in his very first
article when he became Pope
00:24:40.68\00:24:42.56
in First Things
Journal he said he
00:24:42.57\00:24:45.91
cited Pope
Gelasius IV, now how many of
00:24:45.92\00:24:48.42
us heard of Pope
Gelasius IV but it was
00:24:48.43\00:24:50.97
right around the
time of St. Augustine and
00:24:50.98\00:24:52.86
St. Augustine wrote
that book called The
00:24:52.87\00:24:54.06
City of God and Pope
Gelasius said, priests
00:24:54.07\00:24:57.12
must abide by the,
by what the magistrate
00:24:57.13\00:25:02.27
says if guided by divine decree.
00:25:02.28\00:25:06.52
Okay, well what
is divine decree?
00:25:06.88\00:25:08.38
That's the Ten Commandments or
00:25:08.39\00:25:09.83
word of God or
whatever the priests
00:25:09.84\00:25:11.32
say and then it
says and the magistrate
00:25:11.33\00:25:13.42
must follow what the
priest says he should
00:25:13.43\00:25:16.26
do well that's
essentially the church
00:25:16.27\00:25:17.83
dominating and
controlling the state.
00:25:17.84\00:25:19.74
That's right.
That's their view of
00:25:19.94\00:25:21.22
separation of church
and state, give me a break.
00:25:21.23\00:25:23.68
But that's in his
view separation of church
00:25:23.94\00:25:26.45
and state is not
the American view.
00:25:26.46\00:25:27.53
Exactly and I
could probably doing not
00:25:27.54\00:25:30.26
better than to refer
our viewers to Liberty
00:25:30.27\00:25:32.39
Magazine article a while back on
00:25:32.40\00:25:33.83
subsidiarity, the
principle of how one
00:25:33.84\00:25:38.23
authority relates to
the other as far as the
00:25:38.24\00:25:40.05
Catholic model
goes and they really
00:25:40.06\00:25:42.30
haven't radically
changed, nor do you
00:25:42.31\00:25:44.55
expect them to,
right, but they've rephrased
00:25:44.56\00:25:46.62
it for this age and
but still anyway you cut it
00:25:46.63\00:25:50.24
for the Pope to
be openly saying the
00:25:50.25\00:25:53.30
American model is
the ideal one. Yeah.
00:25:53.31\00:25:55.31
it's better than
saying as they ones openly
00:25:55.32\00:25:57.35
said we hate
this American model.
00:25:57.36\00:25:59.51
But it's double
talk because clearly,
00:25:59.52\00:26:01.71
it's certainly
journal article he actually
00:26:01.72\00:26:04.94
champions the Holy Roman Empire.
00:26:04.95\00:26:06.80
As the empire we
need to return to in
00:26:07.33\00:26:09.04
order to restore
civilization to bring
00:26:09.05\00:26:10.66
about world
peace. Well good opening
00:26:10.67\00:26:11.74
for me because on
this program I've said
00:26:11.75\00:26:13.38
many times
before that the European
00:26:13.39\00:26:15.70
Union is nothing
but the revitalized holy
00:26:15.71\00:26:18.76
remnant part,
we're seeing it happening
00:26:18.77\00:26:20.71
before our age. Oh
I agree in Revelations
00:26:20.72\00:26:23.14
17 verses 12-14 you
have a description of
00:26:23.15\00:26:26.44
the lamb like beast
which has represented
00:26:26.45\00:26:28.29
as the United States
of America or at least
00:26:28.71\00:26:30.24
that's the way we've
been interpreted Bible
00:26:30.25\00:26:31.85
prophesy as
Adventists and the ten kings,
00:26:31.86\00:26:34.83
now who are the ten
kings I believe the ten
00:26:34.84\00:26:36.46
kings is a United Europe coming
00:26:36.47\00:26:38.54
together or the
leading men of the
00:26:38.55\00:26:40.49
earth and so what
we see as a world wide
00:26:40.50\00:26:43.27
ecumenical and
political unity taking
00:26:43.28\00:26:45.88
place, what is that end up with
00:26:45.89\00:26:47.48
persecuting the people of God.
00:26:47.91\00:26:49.13
More years ago
then I care to remember,
00:26:50.52\00:26:52.37
in a rather interesting
presidential campaign
00:26:52.38\00:26:55.19
there was a
comedian named Pat Paulsen
00:26:55.20\00:26:57.02
who was want to say
quotable humorous quotes.
00:26:57.67\00:27:01.27
And speaking of this
right wing, left wing
00:27:01.96\00:27:04.07
thing he said you
know there's right
00:27:04.08\00:27:05.48
wing, there's
left wing, he says but
00:27:05.49\00:27:07.86
I prefer to be
middle of the bed.
00:27:07.87\00:27:09.39
Well that's not
always to advantage when
00:27:10.21\00:27:13.48
you're talking
about religious issues and
00:27:13.49\00:27:16.19
how religion
relates to the state.
00:27:16.20\00:27:18.53
We've seen in the
United Sates in recent
00:27:18.91\00:27:20.87
years a distinct turn
to the right by certain
00:27:20.88\00:27:24.41
religious factions
with the passing of Jerry
00:27:24.42\00:27:26.87
Falwell and some
other fellow travelers
00:27:26.88\00:27:29.63
and the change of
administration in the
00:27:29.98\00:27:32.56
government we've
definitely seen a
00:27:32.57\00:27:35.31
fading of their
influence. Now with Rick
00:27:36.04\00:27:37.56
Now with Rick Warren in a more
00:27:38.00\00:27:39.66
moderate, more
generalized religious
00:27:40.16\00:27:43.67
view point it's easy
to think that intrusion
00:27:43.68\00:27:47.74
into government
affairs by religious
00:27:47.75\00:27:49.50
people is over. But
I think we're likely
00:27:49.70\00:27:52.30
to see in the
years ahead and even more
00:27:52.31\00:27:54.94
pernicious, and I
use that word advisedly,
00:27:54.95\00:27:57.31
the pernicious movement against
00:27:57.32\00:27:59.53
state power by religious
interest, we must be on God.
00:27:59.54\00:28:03.32
For Liberty Insider
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:28:05.30\00:28:08.00