Welcome to the
"Liberty Insider."
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This is the program that
brings you up-to-date news,
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views,
information, and discussion
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on religious liberty issues.
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My name is, Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine
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and my guest on the program is,
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Darrel
Huenergardt, welcome, Darrel.
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Thank you, it's a
pleasure to be here.
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For our viewers information,
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I'll tell them
that you're a lawyer
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and as well as that,
have special responsibilities
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with the
Seventh-Day Adventist Church
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for public affairs
and religious liberty
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and we could have
a whole program on
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the distinction
between those two elements.
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But a lot of what
you do is intervene
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and help the church
intervene to support people
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who has workplace
Sabbath accommodation,
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another religious
accommodation problems.
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Yeah, about 25 years
ago when, Joel Tompkins,
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was President of
Mid-America Union.
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Now where is
Mid-America centered,
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as some of our viewers
don't know its history?
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Mid-America runs from
the, Dakota, and Minnesota,
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down to,
Missouri, from, Colorado,
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over to, Iowa, Kansas, Nebraska.
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We comprise nine states
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and actually one
county in the tenth state.
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Huge area, I know from driving
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and flying over lot of.
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It does cover a lot of
area, but about 25 years ago,
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Elder Tompkins,
came to me and asked,
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if I would consider being,
Religious Liberty Director
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and Public Affairs
Director for the Union,
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and since that
time it's been history
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and longer than I
anticipated only one person
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in
North-American division has been
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with Religious
Liberty longer than I have.
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And that's, Vernon
Alger, with Lake Union,
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he was took over his office
about six months before I did.
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And so we've had an interesting
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quarter of a century.
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Right, and I'm
sure you've seen changes
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and I hope some for the better,
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but are there
more cases coming up?
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It's more and more
difficult when I first started,
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it seem to be
easier to talk to employers
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about religious accommodation.
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There's been a
change in the courts
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as the law has developed.
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The law is that an employer
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must make a
reasonable accommodation.
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A reasonable accommodation
has been redefined--
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Has been defined as anything
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that does not create
undue hardship for the employer.
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Undue hardship has
been variously defined,
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but generally is, it
cannot have more than
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the de minimis or
minimal cost to the employer
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and essentially must
not cause any inconvenience
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to either the employer or
any of your fellow employees.
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We also deal with workplace,
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rules, regulations,
unions, union contracts,
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and how that impacts,
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how accommodations can
be made for our members--
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Now, frustrate and ejected
just to remind our viewers,
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I'm sure many watch
this program regularly.
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We've had long
discussion on the need
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for the workplace
religious freedom act,
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which is dealing with,
what you just describe,
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which is-- it sounds good,
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but in practice
it's really very bad
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for the person
seeking accommodation,
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because the
employer has all the cards,
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and can say, that, you
know, I spend the dollar.
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Well, that's a
little inconvenient for me,
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I don't want to spend money
to accommodate that person.
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Yeah, for hard is in cases,
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what accommodation
was based on a case,
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it was decided by
the U.S. Supreme Court
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many years ago.
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We started seeing
difficulty coming up,
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so for
Seventh-Day Adventist in 1989,
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I got together with four
members of the Jewish faith
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in Washington DC.
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Myself, Vernon Alger, Gary Ross,
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who at that time was
congressional liaison--
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For the
Seventh-Day Adventist Church.
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For the
Adventist Church, correct.
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I met with four
members from the Jewish faith,
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who had similar issues
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and we started putting
together legislation in 2001.
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It was introduced in
congress as workplace
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religious freedom act
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and it has gone
basically nowhere--
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Yeah, it's interesting,
if you were a prophet,
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or a soothsayer, I rather would,
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when is it going to get through?
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I'm fearful that
it's really not much
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advanced on as early days.
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Everyone speaks
well of it, but--
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Yeah, we're-who
knows what Congress is ever
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and what it's going to do.
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Yeah, 'cause each two years,
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there is a change in
personality of Congress
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and so if we get the
right group of people there,
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it may happen.
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A lot of emphasis
has being put on state
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and local laws now to help
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with religious
accommodation in the workplace.
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But you've got to remember,
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when we're dealing
with workplace accommodation
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and members, we're not
dealing with legislation,
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we're not dealing with stories,
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we're dealing with people.
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People, whose
lives are at stake,
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they are willing to put their,
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their way of living,
their whole economic basis
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for living on the line
for not working on, Sabbath,
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or for following their
religious convictions--
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And particularly
something that I've noticed is,
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it seldom said,
the cases we get nearly
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always there're people in more
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economically
vulnerable situations,
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like a doctor or
an upper professional.
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They may
encounter some difficulties
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and they can work
around it very easily,
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get another job,
another practice or whatever.
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So we don't hear much about it
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and the
ramifications are not the same.
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But a person in
a basic job that,
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they say, well, I'm
gonna lose my job if necessary,
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because I believe in this.
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I have a lot more to lose
and its bigger commitment.
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Don't count off
the professionals,
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I've represented MDs,
and other professionals
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that have had
significant difficulty
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in where they are at
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and it's not that
easy for professionals,
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just to pick up stakes
and move to another place.
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Not as easy as it used to be,
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I'm sure the
things are turning up.
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But I do remember,
one afternoon meeting
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I was at, people
talking about this
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and doctor at the back
put the hand up and said,
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"You know, I've had problem,
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I lost $500,000
practice because of this."
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Well, there was not a
lot of pity around that room,
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but, yet, that we
perhaps we were showing
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and-seen
sensitivity to the principal,
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but my point is, not
there is not a problem there,
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but we need to
admire these people,
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that are more working class,
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that really--they
don't have the flexibility
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at the best of
times for their work
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and to put it on the line
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for your faith
and your commitment,
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I think it's very admirable.
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And it's
heartrending and heartwarming
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at the same
time to see somebody,
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who has to face that possibility
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of losing their income.
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And at the same time,
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seeing somebody
who has enough faith
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in the Lord to do and take out
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that type of
activity to step out in faith.
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In the 25
years, that I have been
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doing this type of work.
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I have yet to hear of somebody
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that has
permanently been disadvantaged.
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It may take two to three years,
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which is a difficult time
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and we don't
want to minimize that.
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But I have seen over
and over and over again
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the Lord working in lives.
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And not only in the
lives of the employee,
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but I've had the opportunity
to visit with employers,
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who have seen what
true, Christianity,
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can do in the workplace.
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Remember, one of the first cases
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that I ever was involved
in, involve the government.
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At this particular time
this branch of the government
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was changing their
whole computer system
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and everybody that work
for that branch of government
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was going to work two weekends,
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and the whole
weekend between no days off,
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no excuses other than death.
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Young
Seventh-Day Adventist worked
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in their computer
department, he was told,
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he would not be
able to have Sabbaths off
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on those two weekends.
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So we went down and
met with his superior
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and I knew that the fellow
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we were meeting with
had significant authority,
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because the room
was significantly large.
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And as we were talking,
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the superior asked our member,
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what would you do
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if somebody wanted
Sunday off for their religion?
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And I'll never forget
the young man turning to him
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and said, "Sir, if
somebody wanted Sunday off
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for their religion,
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I would step in
and work for him."
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They had, had a
bit of a discussion
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probably lasted 45
minutes to an hour.
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And generally in
those types of situations,
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a decision will not
be made until later.
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At the end of our discussion,
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the superior turned to
the young man and says,
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"I can't wait to
make a decision on here,
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we need more people
like you working for us.
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You'll be the only
person around the world
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but has any days off,
during these 10 day period."
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And I'm sure, from
your point of view,
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sitting there and
listening to that,
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you probably
felt better about that
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than the win- some
legal determination
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down the line after bitter
dispute with the employee.
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Well, don't de
minimis a court win?
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Not, but what I mean is,
there was a moral victory
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that was recognize and
you change peoples' thinking.
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Yeah, it was just a
different type of thing,
00:09:21.39\00:09:24.34
when you win a case in court,
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when you win a
case working with EEOC,
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you know, you've forced
that decision on somebody else,
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that isn't doing it willingly
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and probably not appreciating
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the dedication of that employee.
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Where as in some cases,
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it's refreshing to
see that dedication.
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One point that
I'm getting that is,
00:09:43.56\00:09:45.13
obviously in our
religious liberty department,
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we talk law and
we deal with lawyers
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and sometimes we
need a good legal outcome,
00:09:48.84\00:09:52.10
but the bottom-line is changing
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and affecting and positively
affecting peoples thinking.
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And even if you
win the legal case,
00:09:56.56\00:09:58.99
if you've offended
people along the way
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and not demonstrated
practical, Christianity,
00:10:00.61\00:10:03.08
you've gained
very little in my view.
00:10:03.09\00:10:04.45
So what's you're
saying, I think, is the real
00:10:04.46\00:10:07.33
gratifying payoff to someone
that puts the job on there,
00:10:07.34\00:10:10.96
some as their life on
the line for their faith.
00:10:10.97\00:10:12.87
And we try to not
do battle in court
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the way I would, I would
try another case in court.
00:10:16.53\00:10:20.03
We are, Christian,
00:10:20.04\00:10:21.01
we are representing
not only that member,
00:10:21.02\00:10:23.55
we are representing in effect
00:10:23.56\00:10:25.00
to Seventh-Day Adventist Church.
00:10:25.01\00:10:26.91
Although the member is a client
00:10:26.92\00:10:28.43
and still
maintains control of the case
00:10:28.44\00:10:30.31
like any other client would do.
00:10:30.32\00:10:32.25
But we still have
a different approach,
00:10:32.26\00:10:35.77
when we're dealing with that.
00:10:35.78\00:10:36.86
Now some employers
don't let you be very nice,
00:10:36.87\00:10:40.58
because they reacted in a
way that you can't do anything,
00:10:40.59\00:10:46.84
but take a hard line with him.
00:10:46.85\00:10:48.69
But we try to do our best to do
00:10:48.70\00:10:51.07
what we can for the member,
because without the church,
00:10:51.08\00:10:54.10
the member has
really no hope of any,
00:10:54.11\00:10:57.12
anything that he can
do to gain satisfaction,
00:10:57.13\00:11:02.00
because these cases
are expensive. Yeah.
00:11:02.01\00:11:04.72
Private lawyer will very seldom
00:11:04.73\00:11:07.18
take a religious
accommodation case
00:11:07.19\00:11:09.99
because the damages
are not that great--
00:11:10.00\00:11:13.45
Yeah, not much pay off
and a lot of difficulty.
00:11:13.46\00:11:15.45
Yeah, you know, if we get
5 or $10,000 in a settlement,
00:11:15.46\00:11:19.22
we feel very good about it,
00:11:19.23\00:11:20.93
but a typical case to go through
00:11:20.94\00:11:22.58
court is gonna
cost $60, 70, 80,000
00:11:22.59\00:11:26.05
and so it doesn't
make economic sense,
00:11:26.06\00:11:28.31
it only make social
sense for the church
00:11:28.32\00:11:30.76
to take that
position with our members,
00:11:30.77\00:11:32.89
because without the church
00:11:32.90\00:11:34.46
that member
would have no hope of--
00:11:34.47\00:11:37.10
Obviously and, you know,
00:11:37.11\00:11:38.69
in the magazine
we've often report,
00:11:38.70\00:11:41.23
or several times
reported on high profile cases
00:11:41.24\00:11:44.54
where has been
hundreds of thousands paid out.
00:11:44.55\00:11:47.26
But even then compare
to the effort expended,
00:11:47.27\00:11:50.18
it's not really much compare
00:11:50.19\00:11:52.29
to some of these
other civil cases
00:11:52.30\00:11:53.66
where you see
millions in damages.
00:11:53.67\00:11:56.44
Something that you passed over,
00:11:56.45\00:11:58.57
but I want to reiterate
for those listening at it.
00:11:58.58\00:12:01.28
I've gotten the message loud
00:12:01.29\00:12:02.58
and clear in this
accommodation issues,
00:12:02.59\00:12:04.23
the earlier the
person seeks help
00:12:04.24\00:12:07.29
contacts the church
00:12:07.30\00:12:08.39
and there's a
response the better.
00:12:08.40\00:12:11.84
And it says like, this young man
00:12:11.85\00:12:12.83
you're talking about that
the first sign of a problem
00:12:12.84\00:12:15.61
he had brought you in.
00:12:15.62\00:12:16.83
It's easier because
we have an opportunity
00:12:16.84\00:12:19.27
to visit with more people,
the earlier we get there.
00:12:19.28\00:12:22.15
And people have a tendency as,
00:12:22.16\00:12:24.78
as the process goes on,
to have made up their mind
00:12:24.79\00:12:28.30
and once a person's
mind has been made up,
00:12:28.31\00:12:31.12
it's obviously more
difficult to change your mind
00:12:31.13\00:12:33.62
than to convince a mind.
00:12:33.63\00:12:35.58
Very good, well, I hope
00:12:35.59\00:12:37.71
our listeners have
enjoyed this exchange,
00:12:37.72\00:12:39.62
and learn a little
bit about how a lawyer
00:12:39.63\00:12:41.87
carries on an
accommodation case.
00:12:41.88\00:12:43.32
We'll be back after a
break for more discussion
00:12:43.33\00:12:46.79
and some case studies
on religious accommodation.
00:12:46.80\00:12:50.12
One-hundred years, a
long time to do anything,
00:12:58.87\00:13:02.81
much less publish a
magazine, but this year Liberty,
00:13:02.82\00:13:06.61
the Seventh-day Adventist
voice of religious freedom,
00:13:06.62\00:13:09.41
celebrates one hundred years
of doing what it does best,
00:13:09.42\00:13:13.06
collecting,
analyzing, and reporting the ebb
00:13:13.07\00:13:16.01
and flow of religious
expression around the world.
00:13:16.02\00:13:19.07
Issue after issue,
00:13:19.08\00:13:21.00
Liberty has taken on
the tough assignments,
00:13:21.01\00:13:23.34
tracking down
threats to religious freedom
00:13:23.35\00:13:25.36
and exposing the
work of the devil
00:13:25.37\00:13:26.92
in every corner of the globe.
00:13:26.93\00:13:29.21
Governmental
interference, personal attacks,
00:13:29.22\00:13:31.95
corporate assaults,
even religious freedom issues
00:13:31.96\00:13:34.58
sequestered within the
Church community itself
00:13:34.59\00:13:37.00
have been clearly
and honestly exposed.
00:13:37.01\00:13:39.91
Liberty exists for one purpose,
00:13:39.92\00:13:42.20
to help God's
people maintain that
00:13:42.21\00:13:44.50
all important
separation of Church and State,
00:13:44.51\00:13:47.40
while recognizing the dangers
inherent in such a struggle.
00:13:47.41\00:13:51.39
During the past century,
00:13:51.40\00:13:52.58
Liberty has experienced
challenges of its own,
00:13:52.59\00:13:55.24
but it remains on the job.
00:13:55.25\00:13:57.44
Thanks to the
inspired leadership
00:13:57.45\00:13:59.13
of a long line of
dedicated Adventist Editors,
00:13:59.14\00:14:01.80
three of whom represent almost
00:14:01.81\00:14:03.08
half of the
publications existence
00:14:03.09\00:14:05.15
and the
foresight of a little woman
00:14:05.16\00:14:07.20
from New England.
00:14:07.21\00:14:08.48
One hundred years of struggle,
00:14:08.49\00:14:10.63
one hundred years of victories,
00:14:10.64\00:14:12.88
religious freedom isn't
just about political machines
00:14:12.89\00:14:15.90
and cultural prejudices.
00:14:15.91\00:14:17.58
It's about people
fighting for the right
00:14:17.59\00:14:20.43
to serve the God
they love as their hearts
00:14:20.44\00:14:23.56
and the Holy Spirit dictate.
00:14:23.57\00:14:25.87
Thanks to the
prayers and generous support
00:14:25.88\00:14:27.89
of Seventh-day
Adventists everywhere.
00:14:27.90\00:14:30.33
Liberty will continue
to accomplish its work
00:14:30.34\00:14:32.58
of providing timely information,
00:14:32.59\00:14:34.49
spirit filled inspiration,
00:14:34.50\00:14:35.93
and heaven sent
encouragement to all
00:14:35.94\00:14:38.60
who long to live
and work in a world
00:14:38.61\00:14:41.66
bound together by the God
00:14:41.67\00:14:43.35
ordained bonds of
religious freedom.
00:14:43.36\00:14:47.31
Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
00:14:57.11\00:14:59.31
Before the break I
was talking with guest,
00:14:59.32\00:15:01.93
Darrel Huenergardt.
00:15:01.94\00:15:03.88
Did I get it right, Darrel? Yes.
00:15:03.89\00:15:05.10
You got, your name is
not a, John Brown, name,
00:15:05.11\00:15:09.48
but I've worked
with you for years
00:15:09.49\00:15:12.28
and I should know how to say.
00:15:12.29\00:15:13.73
But we were talking
about some of the interventions
00:15:13.74\00:15:16.45
that you've been
privileged to participate in
00:15:16.46\00:15:18.93
for people in the workplace and,
00:15:18.94\00:15:20.59
and some of them would.
00:15:20.60\00:15:21.83
I have to admire and I'm sure
00:15:21.84\00:15:22.96
you do some of the
stands that are taken,
00:15:22.97\00:15:24.75
some of these people
that really have conviction.
00:15:24.76\00:15:27.74
You cited a couple of
legal cases and I know,
00:15:27.75\00:15:31.10
in our context
we're always talking about
00:15:31.11\00:15:33.20
mostly the, Supreme
Court, you know this
00:15:33.21\00:15:34.82
or that case often
very bad ramifications.
00:15:34.83\00:15:37.23
There is one that I've
heard over and over again,
00:15:37.24\00:15:39.27
the Smith case. Yeah.
00:15:39.28\00:15:40.99
Smith versus
division, what is it division?
00:15:41.00\00:15:43.54
Yeah, division of
unemployment. Of unemployment.
00:15:43.55\00:15:46.51
But before we talk about that,
00:15:46.52\00:15:47.86
Lincoln, I think, you
know, it's easy to focus on the,
00:15:47.87\00:15:51.21
Supreme Court, but actually
most of our dealings are
00:15:51.22\00:15:54.50
with the trial court level.
00:15:54.51\00:15:57.47
And it's interesting to
see the philosophy of judges
00:15:57.48\00:16:00.59
at that level. Right.
00:16:00.60\00:16:01.79
And the impact it has
00:16:01.80\00:16:03.17
on the decisions
involving our, our members.
00:16:03.18\00:16:06.49
Vernon Alger, from
Lake Union was telling me,
00:16:06.50\00:16:08.54
he had two cases in
federal court, in Chicago,
00:16:08.55\00:16:12.72
before two different judges.
00:16:12.73\00:16:14.62
One judge would have
00:16:14.63\00:16:17.37
the philosophy of a
conservative and would meet
00:16:17.38\00:16:22.86
all of the
stereotypes of the conservative.
00:16:22.87\00:16:25.82
The other judge would meet
00:16:25.83\00:16:27.55
all the
stereotypes of the liberal.
00:16:27.56\00:16:30.36
Almost identical facts,
one case the judge says,
00:16:30.37\00:16:34.13
"You have no
case" and the other one,
00:16:34.14\00:16:36.81
the more liberal judge says,
00:16:36.82\00:16:38.62
"You have a case
and awarded damages."
00:16:38.63\00:16:40.78
So the philosophy of the judge
00:16:40.79\00:16:42.52
is extremely important.
00:16:42.53\00:16:44.00
So we don't need
to focus entirely
00:16:44.01\00:16:46.68
on the, Supreme Court,
as important as that is.
00:16:46.69\00:16:48.95
And I agree with you
and this is interesting,
00:16:48.96\00:16:50.48
you sort of stated
00:16:50.49\00:16:51.68
in the
different way what I felt.
00:16:51.69\00:16:53.12
You know, we're dealing
00:16:53.13\00:16:54.11
with the, Supreme Court,
a lot and legal discussions.
00:16:54.12\00:16:57.50
And I've really held that people
00:16:57.51\00:16:59.13
shouldn't repeat easily
what the religious right
00:16:59.14\00:17:02.51
was saying about
the, Supreme Court,
00:17:02.52\00:17:05.57
legislating from the
bench and really being down.
00:17:05.58\00:17:07.44
I'm thinking that
there're sort of the single root
00:17:07.45\00:17:10.00
that are moving us and they do,
00:17:10.01\00:17:12.16
but it's a very blunt instrument
00:17:12.17\00:17:13.56
and I can't see myself that the,
00:17:13.57\00:17:16.13
Supreme Court, is
necessarily all bad or all good,
00:17:16.14\00:17:18.47
I mean, there's,
the real world people
00:17:18.48\00:17:20.91
and a mixed group trying
to look at the constitution
00:17:20.92\00:17:24.11
and they made some good
00:17:24.12\00:17:25.19
and bad
decisions, but you're right.
00:17:25.20\00:17:26.45
I believe the
judges at the lower level,
00:17:26.46\00:17:30.63
day-to-day are affecting things
00:17:30.64\00:17:32.35
in a much more radical way
00:17:32.36\00:17:33.93
and the individual
personality of a judge
00:17:33.94\00:17:36.16
can have immediate
local ramifications way
00:17:36.17\00:17:39.30
in excess of what
some blunt decision
00:17:39.31\00:17:42.73
of the, Supreme Court,
can have, because they,
00:17:42.74\00:17:44.30
they're not on the
separation of power.
00:17:44.31\00:17:46.06
And I try to give
00:17:46.07\00:17:47.04
constitutional
lessons to people.
00:17:47.05\00:17:48.27
You know, there only one
aspect of the government,
00:17:48.28\00:17:50.57
we got the
legislature and the executive
00:17:50.58\00:17:52.33
and certainly we've
seen lately executive powers
00:17:52.34\00:17:54.95
and more immediate
thing even without the country
00:17:54.96\00:17:58.98
or the legislature behind them.
00:17:58.99\00:18:00.29
A President can pass by a
stroke of a pen something,
00:18:00.30\00:18:02.94
away beyond what
the, Supreme Court,
00:18:02.95\00:18:05.00
have growth towards.
00:18:05.01\00:18:06.11
Yeah, presidential declaration
00:18:06.12\00:18:07.67
certainly are important,
00:18:07.68\00:18:08.65
but you'd mentioned
earlier judicial legislation.
00:18:08.66\00:18:14.00
Over the years, it seem to me
00:18:14.01\00:18:15.85
that judicial legislation
is when the court decides
00:18:15.86\00:18:18.80
in a way you don't
want it to decide. Right.
00:18:18.81\00:18:20.97
Judicial decision is when
that court decides in a way
00:18:20.98\00:18:23.87
that you wanted to be decided.
00:18:23.88\00:18:25.61
You'd mentioned the Smith case,
00:18:25.62\00:18:27.39
a tremendously important case
00:18:27.40\00:18:29.88
that the, U.S. Supreme Court,
00:18:29.89\00:18:31.29
did have an impact on
religion and government.
00:18:31.30\00:18:35.80
Just a brief background,
00:18:35.81\00:18:37.05
Smith, involved
the couple of employees
00:18:37.06\00:18:41.01
in the, State of
Oregon, who were Native-American
00:18:41.02\00:18:44.59
and participated in a
Native American Celebration
00:18:44.60\00:18:48.05
that involved playette.
00:18:48.06\00:18:50.12
And they were charged
00:18:50.13\00:18:51.40
and discharged for using drugs,
00:18:51.41\00:18:54.12
went to the various
courts where ended up
00:18:54.13\00:18:57.02
in the, United
States Supreme Court,
00:18:57.03\00:18:59.26
and the, United
State Supreme Court said,
00:18:59.27\00:19:01.76
"This legislation
00:19:01.77\00:19:03.15
is not
specifically aimed at religion.
00:19:03.16\00:19:06.07
It's generally applicable
and so it's appropriate
00:19:06.08\00:19:09.68
and constitutional legislation
00:19:09.69\00:19:12.17
and upheld the
discharge of these two Indian''
00:19:12.18\00:19:14.94
Now let me throw something,
00:19:14.95\00:19:15.92
I don't know if it's a
question you've ever had.
00:19:15.93\00:19:17.32
But I always wondered
00:19:17.33\00:19:18.42
and sort of
answer my other question.
00:19:18.43\00:19:20.96
If they had, if that drug,
00:19:20.97\00:19:23.92
well, whether it was all drugs,
00:19:23.93\00:19:25.18
but if they had
been members of Catholic
00:19:25.19\00:19:27.92
or Protestant
organization doing something
00:19:27.93\00:19:31.57
that came to same under the law,
00:19:31.58\00:19:32.82
would the,
Supreme Court, has said,
00:19:32.83\00:19:34.09
"Well, this is a
general applicable of the law."
00:19:34.10\00:19:36.09
I've tend to think it
was because the judges
00:19:36.10\00:19:40.06
really couldn't
identify their behavior,
00:19:40.07\00:19:42.26
that's what has little
ramifications to the average.
00:19:42.27\00:19:45.33
We'll face,
Indians have taken a hit.
00:19:45.34\00:19:47.55
Right, that's another
way of stating it is--
00:19:47.56\00:19:48.80
With their religion.
00:19:48.81\00:19:50.88
Sacred grounds have
been destroyed for roads.
00:19:50.89\00:19:55.70
And the courts has said,
00:19:55.71\00:19:57.41
well, the general good is
00:19:57.42\00:19:59.06
that we're gonna
put the road there.
00:19:59.07\00:20:00.22
So whether it's a sacred ground
00:20:00.23\00:20:01.70
or you are not,
it doesn't matter.
00:20:01.71\00:20:03.58
So we complain
they may not have really
00:20:03.59\00:20:06.40
I doubt they saw
the full ramifications
00:20:06.41\00:20:08.37
that we've lived to experience.
00:20:08.38\00:20:10.04
But maybe they just thinking
00:20:10.05\00:20:12.73
like everyone at that time.
00:20:12.74\00:20:13.83
This was sort of
a reflex reaction
00:20:13.84\00:20:15.49
from White Anglo-Saxon
Society of the United States.
00:20:15.50\00:20:19.45
They were not
sensitive anyhow to--
00:20:19.46\00:20:21.88
On the same day,
the court decided,
00:20:21.89\00:20:23.52
Smith, they decided to case
00:20:23.53\00:20:24.96
Harshbarger case
out of, Minnesota.
00:20:24.97\00:20:27.82
Involve the
Amish, who understate law
00:20:27.83\00:20:30.95
were required to
have the red triangular
00:20:30.96\00:20:33.86
slow moving vehicle sign
on the back of their buggies,
00:20:33.87\00:20:37.14
under their
religious conviction,
00:20:37.15\00:20:39.31
that color red
was inappropriate,
00:20:39.32\00:20:41.43
because of bride adornment.
00:20:41.44\00:20:43.85
They produce evidence
00:20:43.86\00:20:45.07
that a white reflected
triangle any other color
00:20:45.08\00:20:49.22
that would fit
within their religion,
00:20:49.23\00:20:51.23
would fulfill the
safety requirements.
00:20:51.24\00:20:53.96
But the, United
States Supreme Court,
00:20:53.97\00:20:55.69
on the same day as, Smith said,
00:20:55.70\00:20:58.01
that's a law that
is generally applicable
00:20:58.02\00:21:00.29
was not aimed
toward the religion
00:21:00.30\00:21:02.37
and so that's
enforceable, you have to have
00:21:02.38\00:21:05.11
the red reflecting triangle.
00:21:05.12\00:21:07.27
Unfortunately, they went back
00:21:07.28\00:21:09.11
in under,
Minnesota Constitution,
00:21:09.12\00:21:11.57
they receive their
religious accommodation.
00:21:11.58\00:21:14.13
But under the
federal constitution
00:21:14.14\00:21:15.92
the, Smith and
the Harshbarger, case
00:21:15.93\00:21:17.79
have significantly expanded
00:21:17.80\00:21:20.44
government's
impact upon religion.
00:21:20.45\00:21:23.52
The only
requirements appeared to be,
00:21:23.53\00:21:25.92
you can't have religion in mind
00:21:25.93\00:21:28.04
when you pass a legislation
00:21:28.05\00:21:29.92
and it has to be
generally applicable.
00:21:29.93\00:21:32.58
It's a problematic,
00:21:32.59\00:21:34.29
it's a problematic sort
of construct in my view.
00:21:34.30\00:21:37.18
Yeah, it is.
00:21:37.19\00:21:39.79
Governments are
always trying to do get.
00:21:39.80\00:21:41.40
I serve the city
eternity for the town I live in,
00:21:41.41\00:21:44.82
and in a couple
of other villages.
00:21:44.83\00:21:47.17
And in trying to, what control,
00:21:47.18\00:21:52.36
what happens in
the city, it's amazing
00:21:52.37\00:21:56.07
how easy it is to
impact religious beliefs,
00:21:56.08\00:21:58.73
religious practices
by trying to do good.
00:21:58.74\00:22:03.16
And under the law
of prior to, Smith,
00:22:03.17\00:22:05.99
the government
have the burden to show
00:22:06.00\00:22:08.17
that, that was a
least prescriptive thing
00:22:08.18\00:22:10.52
that they could do in
order to meet the social good.
00:22:10.53\00:22:14.12
Now all they have to do, is say,
00:22:14.13\00:22:15.79
we're trying to
meet a social good.
00:22:15.80\00:22:17.22
We weren't aiming at religion
and it applies to everybody
00:22:17.23\00:22:20.45
and that's a
significant change in the law.
00:22:20.46\00:22:22.45
Yeah, and
probably it's not dangerous
00:22:22.46\00:22:25.96
unless it intersects with
the changing community view
00:22:25.97\00:22:28.76
whether it's
increasingly insensitive
00:22:28.77\00:22:30.58
to the
activities of the minority,
00:22:30.59\00:22:32.51
that's my view,
00:22:32.52\00:22:33.84
that it can compound
itself as society changes.
00:22:33.85\00:22:36.54
And the survey
that was just taken
00:22:36.55\00:22:38.29
in the last part of 2008,
00:22:38.30\00:22:40.82
looking at the religious beliefs
00:22:40.83\00:22:44.27
with the
religious affiliations--
00:22:44.28\00:22:46.29
Yeah, affiliation--
00:22:46.30\00:22:49.12
Now I show out the
way for our viewers,
00:22:49.13\00:22:51.20
the pure form is
a research and study
00:22:51.21\00:22:54.82
entity out of Washington, D.C.
00:22:54.83\00:22:56.42
and pure form of
religion variously
00:22:56.43\00:22:59.83
comes out with
very good studies.
00:22:59.84\00:23:01.17
I just came out
with one on religion
00:23:01.18\00:23:02.99
in the media after
the election members,
00:23:03.00\00:23:05.23
I would recommend
our viewers to get that.
00:23:05.24\00:23:07.13
Anyway, and I
think the previous one
00:23:07.14\00:23:08.73
if my memory is
right was in 1992,
00:23:08.74\00:23:12.18
at that time 8 percent
of the American population,
00:23:12.19\00:23:16.27
United State's
population claim no religion,
00:23:16.28\00:23:20.15
and the latest one in 2008,
00:23:20.16\00:23:22.39
just over 15
percent of the population
00:23:22.40\00:23:25.29
claims no religion.
00:23:25.30\00:23:26.68
More and more people even though
00:23:26.69\00:23:29.38
they claim to be, Christians,
are not connecting themselves
00:23:29.39\00:23:32.22
with the denomination,
00:23:32.23\00:23:33.34
their Christianity is
more of a freewheeling thing,
00:23:33.35\00:23:36.91
and so we deal
with these attitudes
00:23:36.92\00:23:39.93
as we deal with government,
00:23:39.94\00:23:41.25
as we deal with
accommodation in the workplace,
00:23:41.26\00:23:43.95
the attitude of
society is changing.
00:23:43.96\00:23:46.42
And so we have to react,
00:23:46.43\00:23:47.97
we have to adjust to
what society is doing.
00:23:47.98\00:23:51.44
It's not uncommon
now for people to believe
00:23:51.45\00:23:56.24
that I would adjust
my religious beliefs
00:23:56.25\00:23:59.54
to accommodate my employer.
00:23:59.55\00:24:01.50
Why don't you adjust
your religious belief
00:24:01.51\00:24:03.98
to accommodate your employer?
00:24:03.99\00:24:05.44
Well, you know, when you say,
00:24:05.45\00:24:06.58
we have to adjust to that,
00:24:06.59\00:24:08.34
we have to
recognize that reality,
00:24:08.35\00:24:10.94
obviously when we
have a face tense,
00:24:10.95\00:24:14.28
we all know
that we can't adjust,
00:24:14.29\00:24:15.91
we can't
accommodate, we can't compromise
00:24:15.92\00:24:18.74
maybe that's the better word.
00:24:18.75\00:24:19.73
And you have to-- And
we have to recognize it,
00:24:19.74\00:24:21.69
because it makes it more
hazardous dealing with that,
00:24:21.70\00:24:24.01
you know, very few
people and more and more judges,
00:24:24.02\00:24:26.70
I think, they're
gonna realize that
00:24:26.71\00:24:27.77
the certain moral
absolutes that you won't change.
00:24:27.78\00:24:30.63
Yeah, and it's not
unusual for a judge to say,
00:24:30.64\00:24:34.43
why should your employer
have to treat you differently.
00:24:34.44\00:24:37.68
Why you have to be treated
special over other employees?
00:24:37.69\00:24:42.95
It's how you
approach the situation
00:24:42.96\00:24:47.02
and I think you
have to put it in,
00:24:47.03\00:24:49.83
in terms that they understand.
00:24:49.84\00:24:52.15
We used to be able to
say, we treat, Sabbath,
00:24:52.16\00:24:55.22
like, Christians,
used to treat Sunday,
00:24:55.23\00:24:57.57
that's not gonna cut it anymore.
00:24:57.58\00:24:59.23
Yeah, but may be
if you explain that,
00:24:59.24\00:25:04.28
asking a Seventh-Day Adventist
00:25:04.29\00:25:05.95
to work once a month on Sabbath
00:25:05.96\00:25:07.89
is not an accommodation.
00:25:07.90\00:25:09.56
It would be, like
asking an Orthodox Jew
00:25:09.57\00:25:12.07
to eat a ham
sandwich once a week.
00:25:12.08\00:25:14.85
You do not accommodate
00:25:14.86\00:25:16.91
by violating
your religious beliefs
00:25:16.92\00:25:19.49
a less number of
times and that's difficult.
00:25:19.50\00:25:22.82
And the courts also,
I think and employers
00:25:22.83\00:25:27.45
are mixing up
inability to accommodate.
00:25:27.46\00:25:31.14
The law does not say
you have to accommodate
00:25:31.15\00:25:33.55
under any circumstances.
00:25:33.56\00:25:37.20
And they mix that up
with the undue hardship
00:25:37.21\00:25:42.15
or reasonable accommodations
having offered it--
00:25:42.16\00:25:43.59
Its interesting
point you are putting at,
00:25:43.60\00:25:44.84
and I think in
United States Adventist
00:25:44.85\00:25:48.11
and other people of strong faith
00:25:48.12\00:25:50.27
in the workplace mostly,
I think there is a danger
00:25:50.28\00:25:53.48
that they can
misunderstand the dynamic.
00:25:53.49\00:25:55.72
It's wonderful
to live in a country
00:25:55.73\00:25:57.17
that's given
certain legal allowances,
00:25:57.18\00:25:59.40
but you practice your
faith the way you are called to
00:25:59.41\00:26:02.28
and it's not
dependent on whether or not
00:26:02.29\00:26:04.12
there's enabling law.
00:26:04.13\00:26:05.45
It's just the
fortuitous happenstance
00:26:05.46\00:26:08.00
and we could thank God,
00:26:08.01\00:26:09.03
that such a
benign situation exist,
00:26:09.04\00:26:10.67
but we shouldn't
confuse the state with God,
00:26:10.68\00:26:12.96
like the state is obligated
00:26:12.97\00:26:16.20
and I will bring
more and more pressure
00:26:16.21\00:26:17.38
to require them
to accommodate me.
00:26:17.39\00:26:20.44
That's not a
given, it's a charity
00:26:20.45\00:26:23.54
and a nice
by-productive history,
00:26:23.55\00:26:26.52
but ultimately we worship,
because God calls us to it,
00:26:26.53\00:26:30.92
and ultimately, we
follow our commitments
00:26:30.93\00:26:33.73
because we're
called by higher power
00:26:33.74\00:26:35.96
and Darrel mentioned
that more and more people
00:26:35.97\00:26:38.32
really are not
recognizing higher power
00:26:38.33\00:26:40.32
in the sense of this
sort of benignly religious
00:26:40.33\00:26:42.41
or generically religious.
00:26:42.42\00:26:43.87
We need to see a
specific controlling
00:26:43.88\00:26:46.07
moral authority in the universe.
00:26:46.08\00:26:49.25
Many historians have commented
00:26:49.26\00:26:51.03
on the power of myths
and there's no question
00:26:51.04\00:26:54.12
that in our societies,
even in the 21st century.
00:26:54.13\00:26:57.50
Much of what we hold to defect
00:26:57.51\00:26:59.09
about the past is indeed myth.
00:26:59.10\00:27:02.58
And in fact, a lot of our lives
00:27:02.59\00:27:04.71
need to be regulated, inspired
00:27:04.72\00:27:06.50
and given some
direction by what amounts
00:27:06.51\00:27:09.67
to the manufacture of myth.
00:27:09.68\00:27:12.05
I just think that
when we're dealing
00:27:12.06\00:27:13.46
with religious
liberty and eternal values,
00:27:13.47\00:27:16.53
we need to realize
that and as human beings
00:27:16.54\00:27:19.12
separate that from
our determination of
00:27:19.13\00:27:21.66
where we deal with such
issues as religious liberty.
00:27:21.67\00:27:24.75
I've seen a
wonderful painting of,
00:27:24.76\00:27:26.54
George Washington,
kneeling-in-the-snow praying,
00:27:26.55\00:27:29.72
it doesn't seem like there
was any such observed event.
00:27:29.73\00:27:33.38
It was an
attempt to identify him,
00:27:33.39\00:27:36.35
with what is being
called the Christian American.
00:27:36.36\00:27:38.59
What I want is an, America,
00:27:38.60\00:27:40.53
that was
structured in a civil way
00:27:40.54\00:27:42.23
as it's clear
from the constitution,
00:27:42.24\00:27:44.15
but characterized at all
points by people of faith,
00:27:44.16\00:27:48.25
reaching up to their God
and allowing other people
00:27:48.26\00:27:51.33
to reach to that
same God if they chose,
00:27:51.34\00:27:53.90
to reject him if
they were foolish enough,
00:27:53.91\00:27:56.16
but to allow true
religious liberty to flourish
00:27:56.17\00:27:59.08
and true spirituality can exist
00:27:59.09\00:28:01.52
right a path from patriotism.
00:28:01.53\00:28:04.35
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:28:04.36\00:28:08.14