Welcome to the
"Liberty Insider."
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This is the program that
brings you up to date news,
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information and discussion
on religious liberty issues.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine
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and my guest
today is Dr. John Graz,
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Director of the
General Conference
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of Seventh-day
Adventist Department
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of Religious
Liberty, Public Affairs
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and Religious Liberty. Yes.
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And you are also
Secretary General
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of the
Christian World Communion.
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A Conference of the
Christian World Communions
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and also Secretary General
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of the International
Religious Liberty Associations.
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Which is a very important
organization, isn't it?
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You and I had
just attended an event
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that was under the auspices
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of that organization, isn't it?
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Oh yeah. Santo Domingo.
You know. Dominican Republic.
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Exactly as association
we organize every year
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several international
congresses, symposium.
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Every five years a big
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world congress on
religious freedom.
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And now we start to have
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a festival of religious freedom,
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which is of mass
meeting with 10,000 people
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and some time more.
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Our goal is to have
in few weeks from now,
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a festival with 50,000 people
celebrating religious freedom
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and many other things.
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We publish article, we
publish journal and so on.
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This is our,
these are activities.
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We need to have a
whole program, yeah,
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on the festival
of religious liberty.
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What I want to start
off with is something
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that I know your
department prepares
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and I've heard that its used
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more and more by other entities,
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not just the
Seventh-day Adventist church,
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a world report, an
annual world report on, on--
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Yeah it has been--
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Religious freedom
in different countries.
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It has been done
for several years
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and we work now
with Andrews University
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and its very
interesting document
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more than 200 pages.
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We analyzed 215 countries
and we list them on scales
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from one to five,
category one to five,
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according to the
level of religious freedom
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they have in their country.
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It means in a few minutes
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you can have really a
report about the world.
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A quick overview about
what's going on in the world.
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Now, what is the
best rating one or a five?
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Yeah, the best is
one, and the worst is five.
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But you know four
and five are very close,
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it means this is not good
at all for religious freedom.
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You have ten countries
listed in category five.
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It means you have no
religious freedom at all
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and you have
about 30, 37 countries
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listed in category four,
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it means all
together four and five
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you have about 40, 45 countries
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where you don't
have religious freedom
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around the world which represent
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about 25 percent of
the world population.
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How is this report going,
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is it generally more
and more positive or--
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Yeah, that's a good question.
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We tried to see the
trends in the world today.
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I have to say that the trends
are no longer very positive.
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You know, in
1993 that was probably
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the best time and the best
hope for religious freedom.
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But now there is
like we are coming back
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to the old demons on the past.
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It mean more and
more the state wants,
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the state want
to control religion.
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And there is-- you
know a kind of fear
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about religious wars
and we'll talk about.
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Exactly about the global
war on terror in many ways
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has a religious subject.
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Yeah, we can say also
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that according to these report
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there are threats
on religious freedom
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and one probably the
most important threat
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is religious
extremism, religious radicalism,
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then you have nationalism.
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You know places where people say
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that if you are not
member of the national religion
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or the state religion,
you are not a full citizen.
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You are a second class citizen.
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Well. And we cannot accept that.
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When you mentioned 1993,
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I immediately thought that,
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he is really linking this
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to the collapse
of the Soviet Union.
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And we know that,
that many of those
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eastern orthodox
countries reverted
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to that being the state religion
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and that's brought
its own sort of bridges.
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After the communism collapse,
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you know it was yes,
fabulous for religious freedom,
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every former communist
countries opened the door
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and this time you
have a lot of people
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coming from western
countries preaching and so on.
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And what happen is
the traditional religions
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so that-- They'll threaten.
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As an invasion
and they say, hey,
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we have to do
some thing against.
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And they work really
hard not to, to take up,
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you know, the competition
but to protect themselves.
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Then you have the-return
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and 1993 is probably one
of the best times in Russia
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but after you have 1997,
1999 where a legislation,
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restrictive
legislation is voted.
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Then you have other legislation
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and now the situation in a
big country like Russia is more,
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far more difficult
than 10 or 20 years ago.
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How about other
parts of the world,
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you mentioned some countries
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that have no religious freedom.
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Oh yeah, there
are country where--
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I know on this program
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I had mentioned
one of them but--
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Yeah, we can mention at least
one or two like North Korea,
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where you have no
religious freedom at all.
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It's a communist
country, but very, very hard,
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you know, if you compare
with other communist country,
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North Korea is far
behind, then you have--
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I should say
something for our viewers,
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I know especially
in the United States
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with the echoes of the Cold War
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and anti communism there.
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It's easy to
roll, a communism up
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into one sort of common ball.
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But it is different
like communism in Cuba,
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is very
different from North Korea,
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and I think, North Korea,
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that regime even
without communism
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would be similarly
myopic and restrictive,
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so a lot of
what's going on there
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really isn't communism
which is not a good thing.
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Yeah. But I think is just
an incredible close mindedness
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about all outside
things and they identify
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and Christianity for example
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with outside
threats and influences.
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And it's not just
to religious freedom,
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its all kind of freedom.
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Yeah, there is very little
civil freedoms at any time.
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As you say, you have a
difference like in China,
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even in a big
country like, China,
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you can have region in China,
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where you have more
freedom than some other region.
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In Vietnam, things are improving
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a little in Vietnam,
after very, very hard years.
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And as you said
in Cuba, you know,
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we can have a churches,
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evangelistic campaign and so on.
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It doesn't mean that
you have a full freedom,
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but its mean that it's
far better if you compare.
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It's not a full far.
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You know, in rule
principle of course
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when you are living in a country
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with a strong ideology,
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religion is always
passive as a concurrent
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or competitive ideology
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and you have to fight against.
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Now you have to
find the best way,
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but other
countries where religion,
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religion and as
a state religion,
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where there is no concept
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of separation
between church and state.
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You know, there are
11 countries in the world
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where Islam is,
you know, the state,
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not only the state
religion, but the Sharia,
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is really the way of living.
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It means in such a country
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you have to
follow the religious law.
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The law of the country
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is very strongly
influenced by the virtues.
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And in some of those
countries where you even
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have a parallel
religious police, don't they?
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Oh yeah, they
have religious police--
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There is civil
police and then there is,
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conversion,
vigilantes for religions.
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Conversion is forbidden
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and many, many restriction.
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Of course it doesn't mean
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that if you are
Christian, you cannot live.
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Christian have
being in Middle East
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for thousand years.
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But now which is interesting,
they use to be protected.
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Now it's more and more difficult
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which is not because religions,
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but it's because
political issues and so on.
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But it's more and more
difficult to be a Christian,
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in some part of the world today.
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Some people say that
they are more or less
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300 million Christian
discriminated and persecuted
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around the world.
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You know, it means
that, that's a fact,
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but in some other
part of the world,
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Muslim, could be
persecuted or humiliated.
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That's right. Hindus.
I'm glad you bring that out.
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Buddhists, not just Christian.
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You know many of
our viewing audience
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are Seventh-day Adventists,
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but of course we
have a much wider audience
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but those Seventh-day Adventist
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should know that our own
religious liberty department,
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well, it comes from
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our own doctrinal
and prophetic base,
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our emphasis is on defending
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and enabling religious freedom
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and practice for everybody.
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The principle of
religious freedom
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and religious freedom
for everyone, everywhere.
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And we shouldn't be happy
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just because some small
minority group is persecuted
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even if our own church in
that same country is free.
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And you and I know very well,
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the dynamic is
clear that in a country
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that restricts,
even hated minority,
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that's very dangerous
for all of them eventually.
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Exactly. That
there is essentially
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not a clear freedom
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or attractive
freedom for any group.
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You know, this is what I said,
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you know, in some countries
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where Jehovah's
Witnesses are persecuted.
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And people,
some people say okay,
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we're not Jehovah's
Witness, there is no problem.
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Say yes, there is
a problem, because,
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you know, the next one would be
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maybe you and you
have really to protect
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the principle of
religious freedom for all.
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It means to be careful,
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because if
someone is persecuted,
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is the principle
which is really attacked
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and you have to react.
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And I am glad
we've got under this,
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because I have a burden
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that sometimes not
usually with our efforts,
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but religious freedom
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or discussions
of religious freedom
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can easily devolve
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into sort of
feel good discussions,
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where you try to reach
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a common
denominator of understanding
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of another church
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and sort of
flattens down distinctions,
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that should be possible
to simultaneously believe
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that someone else's
doctrine is clearly wrong,
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that I have the truth.
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But I so cherish
there right to believe
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that I'll do
whatever necessarily,
00:10:08.47\00:10:10.54
personally or
legally to defend them.
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Absolutely, you know,
00:10:11.77\00:10:12.74
this is what we have to share,
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you know, because
sometimes people say,
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okay, to have peace we
have to be all together.
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It means forget
your differences.
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I said no, we're all different.
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We believe in different things,
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but we have to
learn how to be different
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and live together. That's right.
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Because at the end
we have to live together
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and on the same planet
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and also we have
to respect other.
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That's the golden rule,
they wonder all this decision
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have to do with
them. Exactly, exactly
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we have to respect other,
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if you don't respect
other, if you attack other,
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they will attack
you one day or another.
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And this time just by reason
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you should think
twice. It's practical matter.
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Are you strongly
enough, are you strong enough,
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because you may
have a lot of problem
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if you attack a lion.
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You know, you may
really you have to learn
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how to live with people.
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But it doesn't mean
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that you have to
give up your conviction.
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These are your conviction,
its part of yourself.
00:11:03.05\00:11:06.21
You have the right to
share you convict them,
00:11:06.22\00:11:08.13
but at the same
time respect others.
00:11:08.14\00:11:11.78
And that is a big challenge,
because sometime people,
00:11:11.79\00:11:14.24
you know, they
are just one block.
00:11:14.25\00:11:16.53
What they act, from
a Christian prospective
00:11:16.54\00:11:18.51
when I look at
it, I think very often
00:11:18.52\00:11:19.88
they're not
exemplifying Christian virtues.
00:11:19.89\00:11:22.74
Yeah exactly.
00:11:22.75\00:11:23.72
If I understand the
love of Christ to me
00:11:23.73\00:11:26.12
and what He has done to save me
00:11:26.13\00:11:27.30
and if I understand
00:11:27.31\00:11:28.28
the provisions of
a Creator God in Eden
00:11:28.29\00:11:31.12
even gave the options.
00:11:31.13\00:11:32.45
I have to grant full
freedom to other people.
00:11:32.46\00:11:34.91
I can't act differently
00:11:34.92\00:11:35.97
that my God acts towards me.
00:11:35.98\00:11:37.66
You know, when we
have meeting with leaders,
00:11:37.67\00:11:40.70
religious leaders,
all the religious leaders,
00:11:40.71\00:11:43.04
very, very often they expect us,
00:11:43.05\00:11:45.76
when they see us they expect
00:11:45.77\00:11:46.91
that we will be
aggressive toward them.
00:11:46.92\00:11:48.70
That we will
try to convert them,
00:11:48.71\00:11:50.73
to price them.
00:11:50.74\00:11:51.91
And when they
see that we are open
00:11:51.92\00:11:53.58
about what they
say, we respect them
00:11:53.59\00:11:55.90
and we also believe
strongly in what we believe,
00:11:55.91\00:11:59.22
but we can live with them.
00:11:59.23\00:12:00.94
Yeah that's like
a shock for them,
00:12:00.95\00:12:03.76
they are surprised.
00:12:03.77\00:12:05.16
Well, I know in my job
00:12:05.17\00:12:07.19
and we intersect quite a bit,
00:12:07.20\00:12:08.65
because we're
actually in the same building.
00:12:08.66\00:12:10.63
It's been fantastic
to talk to well not,
00:12:10.64\00:12:14.82
Hindus, yet
Buddhists. Yeah Buddhists.
00:12:14.83\00:12:16.37
And Muslims, and other
Christian denominations
00:12:16.38\00:12:20.53
and we can have
interesting free dialog,
00:12:20.54\00:12:23.49
but I haven't yet picked up
00:12:23.50\00:12:25.13
though, you know, we think
00:12:25.14\00:12:26.11
that the
differences are immaterial
00:12:26.12\00:12:27.68
or that we aren't ready
to put away our beliefs.
00:12:27.69\00:12:29.71
But there is
something refreshing about this
00:12:29.72\00:12:32.31
open sharing of a
common faith directive.
00:12:32.32\00:12:34.75
I mean the
directive is not the same,
00:12:34.76\00:12:36.29
but I mean we both
motivated by faith concern,
00:12:36.30\00:12:38.90
so we're being friends on that.
00:12:38.91\00:12:39.88
And especially, you know,
00:12:39.89\00:12:40.86
in our case we are
minority everywhere,
00:12:40.87\00:12:43.87
it means in many places
00:12:43.88\00:12:45.99
we are seen on a negative side.
00:12:46.00\00:12:48.21
When people see
us acting friendly,
00:12:48.22\00:12:52.32
you know openly
they turn their mind.
00:12:52.33\00:12:55.74
That's true. And
that's very important.
00:12:55.75\00:12:57.42
We need to
minimize, religious conflict.
00:12:57.43\00:13:00.84
After the break,
00:13:00.85\00:13:02.15
we'll talk a
little bit about something
00:13:02.16\00:13:03.61
that's come into
the United Nations
00:13:03.62\00:13:05.43
that really may
exaggerate conflict
00:13:05.44\00:13:08.51
and increase persecution.
00:13:08.52\00:13:10.01
We'll be right back.
00:13:10.02\00:13:11.16
One-hundred years, a
long time to do anything,
00:13:19.31\00:13:23.12
much less publish a
magazine, but this year Liberty,
00:13:23.13\00:13:27.00
the Seventh-day Adventist
voice of religious freedom,
00:13:27.01\00:13:29.73
celebrates one-hundred years
of doing what it does best,
00:13:29.74\00:13:33.39
collecting,
analyzing, and reporting
00:13:33.40\00:13:35.99
the ebb and flow of
religious expression
00:13:36.00\00:13:38.10
around the world.
00:13:38.11\00:13:39.60
Issue after issue,
00:13:39.61\00:13:41.23
Liberty has taken on
the tough assignments,
00:13:41.24\00:13:43.58
tracking down
threats to religious freedom
00:13:43.59\00:13:45.72
and exposing the
work of the devil
00:13:45.73\00:13:47.27
in every corner of the globe.
00:13:47.28\00:13:49.44
Governmental
interference, personal attacks,
00:13:49.45\00:13:52.23
corporate assaults,
even religious freedom issues
00:13:52.24\00:13:55.03
sequestered within the
Church community itself
00:13:55.04\00:13:57.20
have been clearly
and honestly exposed.
00:13:57.21\00:14:00.13
Liberty exists for one purpose
00:14:00.14\00:14:02.66
to help God's people
00:14:02.67\00:14:04.03
maintain that all important
separation of Church and State
00:14:04.04\00:14:07.82
while recognizing the dangers
inherent in such a struggle.
00:14:07.83\00:14:11.59
During the past century,
00:14:11.60\00:14:13.07
Liberty has experienced
challenges of its own,
00:14:13.08\00:14:15.61
but it remains on the job.
00:14:15.62\00:14:17.78
Thanks to the
inspired leadership
00:14:17.79\00:14:19.51
of a long line of
dedicated Adventist Editors,
00:14:19.52\00:14:22.17
three of whom
represent almost half
00:14:22.18\00:14:23.94
of the publications existence
00:14:23.95\00:14:25.44
and the foresight of a
little woman from New England.
00:14:25.45\00:14:28.90
One-hundred years of struggle,
00:14:28.91\00:14:30.94
one-hundred years of victories,
00:14:30.95\00:14:33.24
religious freedom isn't
just about political machines
00:14:33.25\00:14:36.24
and cultural prejudices.
00:14:36.25\00:14:38.04
It's about people
fighting for the right
00:14:38.05\00:14:40.96
to serve the God
they love as their hearts
00:14:40.97\00:14:43.87
and the Holy Spirit dictate.
00:14:43.88\00:14:46.28
Thanks to the
prayers and generous support
00:14:46.29\00:14:48.27
of Seventh-day
Adventists everywhere.
00:14:48.28\00:14:50.66
Liberty will continue
to accomplish its work
00:14:50.67\00:14:53.02
of providing timely information,
00:14:53.03\00:14:54.84
spirit filled inspiration,
00:14:54.85\00:14:56.48
and heaven sent encouragement
to all who long to live
00:14:56.49\00:15:00.34
and work in a world
bound together by the God
00:15:00.35\00:15:03.75
ordained bonds of
religious freedom.
00:15:03.76\00:15:06.95
Welcome back to
the "Liberty Insider."
00:15:17.46\00:15:19.37
Before the break
00:15:19.38\00:15:20.35
I was talking
with Dr. John Graz,
00:15:20.36\00:15:22.44
about global religious liberty.
00:15:22.45\00:15:25.70
And in our discussion I think
00:15:25.71\00:15:28.10
and certainly in my mind
00:15:28.11\00:15:29.20
I was thinking more and
more the United Nations.
00:15:29.21\00:15:32.62
We work in Washington D.C. area,
00:15:32.63\00:15:34.52
not many miles
north is New York City.
00:15:34.53\00:15:37.46
And I often drive up there,
00:15:37.47\00:15:39.16
at first there were two
especially tall buildings
00:15:39.17\00:15:41.94
they've vanished
and now there's a not
00:15:41.95\00:15:43.86
so taller building but a
very distinctive building
00:15:43.87\00:15:46.27
on the side of the Hudson River,
00:15:46.28\00:15:48.65
United Nations
being there for decades.
00:15:48.66\00:15:51.79
I remember once going
in there to get a NGO pass
00:15:51.80\00:15:55.06
and going past a
room and here inside
00:15:55.07\00:15:57.45
they were discussing
00:15:57.46\00:15:59.17
whether Iraq should
have the ability to sell oil
00:15:59.18\00:16:01.30
and get off from
under the embargo,
00:16:01.31\00:16:02.76
great things happen
at the United Nations.
00:16:02.77\00:16:06.28
And we have access
which is very important to go
00:16:06.29\00:16:08.94
that our association
the general conference
00:16:08.95\00:16:11.78
and some other Adventists
associations have access.
00:16:11.79\00:16:15.51
They have been
recognized as a NGO,
00:16:15.52\00:16:18.45
non governmental association
00:16:18.46\00:16:20.58
with the United Nations.
00:16:20.59\00:16:21.90
I was there years
ago getting accreditation
00:16:21.91\00:16:24.01
with the temperance movement
00:16:24.02\00:16:26.93
of the
Seventh-day Adventist church,
00:16:26.94\00:16:28.12
the ICPA that was but with
the IRLA you've NGO status.
00:16:28.13\00:16:33.18
Yeah, and we can
attend the meeting
00:16:33.19\00:16:34.83
all meeting and
specially the meeting
00:16:34.84\00:16:37.00
of the human
right council in Geneva.
00:16:37.01\00:16:39.58
All the issues of human
rights are talked in Geneva.
00:16:39.59\00:16:43.45
You have also the United Nations
00:16:43.46\00:16:45.36
Human Right Committee in Geneva.
00:16:45.37\00:16:47.71
And as NGO, you
have the right to speak
00:16:47.72\00:16:50.29
you can imagine this privilege.
00:16:50.30\00:16:51.81
Oh, it's
wonderful. You can speak
00:16:51.82\00:16:52.87
on behalf of the
Adventist Church.
00:16:52.88\00:16:55.48
You can speak on
behalf of your association
00:16:55.49\00:16:58.84
and all the representatives
00:16:58.85\00:17:01.08
of governments are there
and they can listen to you.
00:17:01.09\00:17:04.16
Now I'm going to
go in a direction
00:17:04.17\00:17:05.56
you may not have guessed,
00:17:05.57\00:17:06.54
but its-- I read an
editorial in Liberty magazine
00:17:06.55\00:17:08.90
while back
recognizing some of the--
00:17:08.91\00:17:11.63
that very real and
positive initiatives
00:17:11.64\00:17:14.11
of the Catholic Church,
00:17:14.12\00:17:15.26
but it does trouble
me on the United Nations
00:17:15.27\00:17:17.12
that the Roman
Catholic Church of Rome
00:17:17.13\00:17:19.34
functions as Observer.
00:17:19.35\00:17:22.40
Well as a State. At
the Human Right Committee,
00:17:22.41\00:17:25.26
state at the
United Nations, yeah.
00:17:25.27\00:17:27.18
Which I object to, but a church
00:17:27.19\00:17:30.41
whether it's
Roman Catholic Church,
00:17:30.42\00:17:31.77
or the
Seventh-day Adventist Church
00:17:31.78\00:17:32.87
or whatever has this NGO status.
00:17:32.88\00:17:35.10
They have access to be
part of the discussions
00:17:35.11\00:17:38.11
and I think that's a wonderful.
00:17:38.12\00:17:39.16
Yeah, but the
difference of course
00:17:39.17\00:17:40.49
the Holy Sea, because
that the United Nations
00:17:40.50\00:17:43.72
and Rome is called the Holy Sea
00:17:43.73\00:17:45.52
is really
recognized as a country.
00:17:45.53\00:17:47.88
Well, I know but I.
00:17:47.89\00:17:49.27
I have a religious
liberty problem with that.
00:17:49.28\00:17:51.33
Yeah, yeah, yeah of
course we can talk to that.
00:17:51.34\00:17:54.11
That's matter isn't what all.
00:17:54.12\00:17:55.22
But what I'm trying to do
00:17:55.23\00:17:56.20
is simultaneously
remind our viewers that,
00:17:56.21\00:17:57.92
that is a
problematic church, state issue.
00:17:57.93\00:18:00.01
But it is not problematic,
00:18:00.02\00:18:01.79
it's a wonderful access that,
that all religions through.
00:18:01.80\00:18:06.46
Either it's the
religion directly,
00:18:06.47\00:18:07.77
or religious agencies
00:18:07.78\00:18:08.92
they have created have access
00:18:08.93\00:18:10.47
to discussions on a
wide variety of moral issues.
00:18:10.48\00:18:12.87
We can work
together in a coalition
00:18:12.88\00:18:15.13
especially when
you've a resolution,
00:18:15.14\00:18:17.13
which can already
threat religious freedom.
00:18:17.14\00:18:19.43
Freedom, you can organize
a kind of pool and react
00:18:19.44\00:18:23.90
and that is important
00:18:23.91\00:18:25.23
and you can visit
all the government
00:18:25.24\00:18:27.14
one after the other, explaining
00:18:27.15\00:18:29.06
why this resolution
is not good and for us,
00:18:29.07\00:18:32.30
you know, I travel a lot.
00:18:32.31\00:18:33.86
That's very important
to visit the ambassadors,
00:18:33.87\00:18:37.15
the representatives
of various government
00:18:37.16\00:18:39.91
and to say oh
I'll go to your country
00:18:39.92\00:18:42.13
in next week, or next
year and so on and so on,
00:18:42.14\00:18:44.97
that's very good very important.
00:18:44.98\00:18:46.34
It can even open up
entire countries for--
00:18:46.35\00:18:50.29
General political expression
00:18:50.30\00:18:51.58
or particularly against
disadvantage situation for,
00:18:51.59\00:18:56.38
for evangelism
it can be opened up.
00:18:56.39\00:18:58.42
Imagine Lincoln,
in some countries
00:18:58.43\00:19:00.15
we're just a small
group and their ambassador
00:19:00.16\00:19:03.89
is at the United Nations.
00:19:03.90\00:19:05.80
And we represent the
church, we go and we visit them.
00:19:05.81\00:19:08.37
First, you know,
they are very surprised
00:19:08.38\00:19:09.97
to see us there.
00:19:09.98\00:19:11.21
What are you doing there?
00:19:11.22\00:19:12.57
What are you doing
here in the United Nations?
00:19:12.58\00:19:14.98
I said yeah, you know,
00:19:14.99\00:19:16.43
you have a problem with
our church in your country
00:19:16.44\00:19:19.20
and of course because
the setting is different.
00:19:19.21\00:19:22.45
Most of a time
people are very open
00:19:22.46\00:19:24.25
and they try to help you.
00:19:24.26\00:19:25.75
Right, now I hope our
viewers sort of pickup
00:19:25.76\00:19:28.35
what we trying to communicate
00:19:28.36\00:19:29.45
that there are
great positives in working
00:19:29.46\00:19:31.54
with the United Nations. Yeah.
00:19:31.55\00:19:32.78
Many people I'm
afraid have heard
00:19:32.79\00:19:35.49
some ill advised
public statement,
00:19:35.50\00:19:36.81
even by U.S.
officials, go online
00:19:36.82\00:19:38.75
and get sort of
wacky conspiracy theories.
00:19:38.76\00:19:41.23
Goodness knows the U.N.
00:19:41.24\00:19:42.51
like any human
instrument is capable
00:19:42.52\00:19:44.50
of some dangerous decisions.
00:19:44.51\00:19:46.65
But its generally
been a wonderful dynamic
00:19:46.66\00:19:49.33
for the modern
world to come together
00:19:49.34\00:19:51.31
and to reason and
discuss, argue on occasions
00:19:51.32\00:19:53.72
and good as well as
bad things have come out
00:19:53.73\00:19:56.30
of that and but lets
get on to a bad thing.
00:19:56.31\00:19:58.95
Yeah, sure. Some
things happened lately.
00:19:58.96\00:20:00.98
Oh, there are many bad things,
00:20:00.99\00:20:02.44
so many bad things.
00:20:02.45\00:20:03.44
But my point is we're not
down on the United Nations,
00:20:03.45\00:20:05.41
it's been a positive thing,
00:20:05.42\00:20:06.50
our Seventh-day Adventist Church
00:20:06.51\00:20:07.65
one of your associates is
largely challenged to be--
00:20:07.66\00:20:10.64
Full time he is all
with the United Nations.
00:20:10.65\00:20:14.09
But recently there was
00:20:14.10\00:20:15.46
United Nations
meeting in Geneva,
00:20:15.47\00:20:18.20
sub-committee and
then you were telling me
00:20:18.21\00:20:20.24
it went to a discussion
00:20:20.25\00:20:21.62
on the general on some of them.
00:20:21.63\00:20:22.60
There is a resolution
00:20:22.61\00:20:24.41
which really create a
problem for religious freedom.
00:20:24.42\00:20:27.13
It has been introduced in 1999,
00:20:27.14\00:20:29.71
by the, by the
conference of Islamic,
00:20:29.72\00:20:33.43
the Islamic Conference,
00:20:33.44\00:20:34.80
organization of
Islamic Conference
00:20:34.81\00:20:37.47
and Pakistan
introduced these resolution.
00:20:37.48\00:20:40.51
It was a resolution
against defamation on Islam,
00:20:40.52\00:20:44.81
of Islam at the beginning
00:20:44.82\00:20:45.90
and they change
originally change.
00:20:45.91\00:20:47.24
And it got
nowhere on that basis.
00:20:47.25\00:20:48.79
Then it became, you know,
00:20:48.80\00:20:49.84
to get most report
defamation of religion
00:20:49.85\00:20:54.00
and mainly it's a
really about Islam.
00:20:54.01\00:20:57.06
But, and they
know the problem is--
00:20:57.07\00:20:58.27
It's not pass that word.
00:20:58.28\00:21:00.05
No the problem is in item 12,
00:21:00.06\00:21:03.08
they encourage
country, they urge country
00:21:03.09\00:21:06.27
to pass a legislation
against defamation of religion,
00:21:06.28\00:21:10.65
which create
probably a big problem
00:21:10.66\00:21:13.40
when it comes to
freedom of expression.
00:21:13.41\00:21:15.86
And they put on the same level,
00:21:15.87\00:21:18.15
you know, the
defamation of religion.
00:21:18.16\00:21:19.88
It meant what you
say about your religion
00:21:19.89\00:21:22.16
and incitement to
hate and to violence,
00:21:22.17\00:21:27.16
violence against religion.
00:21:27.17\00:21:28.26
And which are totally different.
00:21:28.27\00:21:29.84
The language of this intersects
00:21:29.85\00:21:31.65
dangerously with
the war on terrorism
00:21:31.66\00:21:34.71
and yes, and the sense of threat
00:21:34.72\00:21:35.69
to the very states existing.
00:21:35.70\00:21:37.35
You have also, we had,
00:21:37.36\00:21:39.44
don't forget these
contexts of terrorism
00:21:39.45\00:21:42.31
and also the
contexts of religious peace,
00:21:42.32\00:21:44.65
religious war.
00:21:44.66\00:21:45.71
It mean governments
are more and more sensitive
00:21:45.72\00:21:48.42
about what people
said about religion,
00:21:48.43\00:21:51.52
because they don't
want to have religious war
00:21:51.53\00:21:53.89
in their
country. Right, and use--
00:21:53.90\00:21:54.93
And especially, sorry
but its especially true
00:21:54.94\00:21:57.64
with some religion
00:21:57.65\00:21:58.62
where people
react very emotionally
00:21:58.63\00:22:00.78
and they can kill people,
00:22:00.79\00:22:02.16
because the other
side of the planet
00:22:02.17\00:22:04.85
someone insult a religion.
00:22:04.86\00:22:06.65
Well, you used the term earlier,
00:22:06.66\00:22:08.02
not badly but its
used a lot loosely
00:22:08.03\00:22:10.06
nowadays religious extremists
00:22:10.07\00:22:11.97
and I believe more
and more governments
00:22:11.98\00:22:13.52
are seeing religion
as inherently dangerous
00:22:13.53\00:22:16.13
and any out of the middle road
00:22:16.14\00:22:20.33
and any deeply felt expression
00:22:20.34\00:22:23.48
of that is easily
characterized as extremism.
00:22:23.49\00:22:26.08
Yeah, more. The net effect
is to sort of box religion
00:22:26.09\00:22:29.65
even if they
allow it, United States,
00:22:29.66\00:22:31.56
of course enables
00:22:31.57\00:22:32.57
that in a powerful
constitutional way.
00:22:32.58\00:22:34.22
But even in the country
that sort of tolerates religion
00:22:34.23\00:22:36.32
they want it
within a safe confine
00:22:36.33\00:22:39.54
and I think that
this action especially
00:22:39.55\00:22:43.28
as it's followed
through by countries
00:22:43.29\00:22:44.51
will be a great disincentive
like in the western world.
00:22:44.52\00:22:48.36
I wouldn't expect
that too many people
00:22:48.37\00:22:49.92
would be taken to
court for defamation,
00:22:49.93\00:22:51.88
but the idea that you
might be. You might be.
00:22:51.89\00:22:54.20
Will tend to
restrict those statements.
00:22:54.21\00:22:56.25
Also it justifies all the
anti conversion legislation
00:22:56.26\00:23:01.63
you can see in some countries.
00:23:01.64\00:23:03.41
Anti-blasphemy
legislation where if you have
00:23:03.42\00:23:08.66
something to
say about a religion
00:23:08.67\00:23:10.04
you can be
arrested like in Pakistan
00:23:10.05\00:23:12.05
you can be arrested.
00:23:12.06\00:23:13.32
And you can spend years in jail,
00:23:13.33\00:23:14.99
you know, and many
other anti extremists where,
00:23:15.00\00:23:18.02
you know, the
police come and read
00:23:18.03\00:23:19.48
what you publish
about other religion
00:23:19.49\00:23:21.44
and say oh, you are dangerous.
00:23:21.45\00:23:22.94
We don't want to have
religious war in our country,
00:23:22.95\00:23:25.84
you have to stop,
you have to go to jail,
00:23:25.85\00:23:27.71
or we arrest you.
00:23:27.72\00:23:28.69
There are many, many, many ways.
00:23:28.70\00:23:29.68
And these are very
subjective applications,
00:23:29.69\00:23:31.86
because you don't know
where is the bright line,
00:23:31.87\00:23:33.80
how close it can goes.
00:23:33.81\00:23:34.78
Absolutely. And
my point is where
00:23:34.79\00:23:36.37
there is that threat
people will pull back
00:23:36.38\00:23:38.01
to making the
most benign innocuous,
00:23:38.02\00:23:40.19
ineffectual statement
00:23:40.20\00:23:41.95
about their own
and others religion.
00:23:41.96\00:23:43.41
Which was interesting
is at the United Nations,
00:23:43.42\00:23:45.93
we visit, you
know, the government
00:23:45.94\00:23:48.19
and this time we
got more abstention
00:23:48.20\00:23:50.85
than the past vote,
but still the result show.
00:23:50.86\00:23:53.38
Wasn't an overwhelming
vote, you are right,
00:23:53.39\00:23:55.00
but and the United States
00:23:55.01\00:23:56.93
has clearly come
out as the leader.
00:23:56.94\00:23:58.62
But many countries
are abstain all of the--
00:23:58.63\00:24:01.19
most of the African countries
00:24:01.20\00:24:02.83
and Latin American
countries abstaining.
00:24:02.84\00:24:04.95
Well because they
fear repercussions
00:24:04.96\00:24:06.48
if they voted
against it clearly.
00:24:06.49\00:24:07.83
And also they feel
that's not they are fighting
00:24:07.84\00:24:09.96
and when you talk with
people from government.
00:24:09.97\00:24:12.63
Sometime they say yes, you know,
00:24:12.64\00:24:14.52
we want to have religious peace.
00:24:14.53\00:24:16.29
We don't want to have
religious war in our country.
00:24:16.30\00:24:18.91
It means we would
though doesn't want to,
00:24:18.92\00:24:21.21
we don't want to
support this resolution,
00:24:21.22\00:24:23.50
but we don't
want also to oppose.
00:24:23.51\00:24:25.77
Yeah. And the
resolution of course,
00:24:25.78\00:24:27.67
those who
propose the resolution,
00:24:27.68\00:24:29.49
hope that one day it
will become a convention.
00:24:29.50\00:24:31.63
So where will we go from there.
00:24:31.64\00:24:32.79
What do you think
is going to happen
00:24:32.80\00:24:33.80
on this clearly
its-- Oh, I think,
00:24:33.81\00:24:34.83
that would be
still a big discussion,
00:24:34.84\00:24:37.19
we are not now at the
point to have a new convention.
00:24:37.20\00:24:40.24
But this is the
purpose you know,
00:24:40.25\00:24:42.62
yeah because a convention
00:24:42.63\00:24:44.09
is abiding
document for countries.
00:24:44.10\00:24:46.60
So in spite of
what Anthony Scalia
00:24:46.61\00:24:49.35
and other say in the U.S.,
00:24:49.36\00:24:51.36
foreign law does have
some binding nature on the U.S.
00:24:51.37\00:24:54.30
Yes it depends, if the country
00:24:54.31\00:24:55.65
decides to sign although.
00:24:55.66\00:24:56.63
Because it did a
national agreement.
00:24:56.64\00:24:57.64
But it anywhere you know
00:24:57.65\00:24:58.68
you will have many
countries signing the documents
00:24:58.69\00:25:01.65
which become a new legislation
00:25:01.66\00:25:03.80
and it will
influence the whole world.
00:25:03.81\00:25:06.80
So we can probably
expect to see this resolution
00:25:06.81\00:25:09.38
working its peculating its way
00:25:09.39\00:25:11.03
through into legislation
in different countries
00:25:11.04\00:25:13.52
around the world.
00:25:13.53\00:25:14.54
Countries will have
to sign if they agree,
00:25:14.55\00:25:16.89
you know, but you know
we're not at this point.
00:25:16.90\00:25:19.85
No, not certainly, I
hope not at the Unites States.
00:25:19.86\00:25:21.89
No, no. Although
in the United States.
00:25:21.90\00:25:23.53
Anyway, you know, we are
living in the global world.
00:25:23.54\00:25:26.08
It means it can have affect.
00:25:26.09\00:25:27.74
What you are seeing in the U.S.
00:25:27.75\00:25:29.10
can have effect
around the world.
00:25:29.11\00:25:31.24
It means you can
say something here
00:25:31.25\00:25:33.37
and people in their own country
00:25:33.38\00:25:35.96
where are you have a
time blasphemy legislation
00:25:35.97\00:25:39.24
or something like that.
00:25:39.25\00:25:40.47
They'll say, hey there
is something wrong here
00:25:40.48\00:25:42.80
and you may have a problem.
00:25:42.81\00:25:44.39
Not only you but
people who are living there,
00:25:44.40\00:25:47.30
you know, I think
about religious minorities,
00:25:47.31\00:25:50.16
and let's say about Christian
00:25:50.17\00:25:51.93
who are living in a country
00:25:51.94\00:25:52.91
where they are small minority.
00:25:52.92\00:25:54.70
They can be persecuted
00:25:54.71\00:25:57.48
just because someone
says something in twenty.
00:25:57.49\00:26:00.10
As far as the United States,
00:26:00.11\00:26:01.11
I see this
intersecting in a certain way
00:26:01.12\00:26:03.12
with moves that
have been afoot for years
00:26:03.13\00:26:05.25
for hate crimes
legislation or, yeah,
00:26:05.26\00:26:08.51
sort of an extra penalty,
if you commit even a murder
00:26:08.52\00:26:13.46
but if it could be
shown that it's a hate crime
00:26:13.47\00:26:15.06
you as you have some ideological
00:26:15.07\00:26:16.39
or racial animist towards them,
00:26:16.40\00:26:18.78
then there is a special penalty.
00:26:18.79\00:26:20.20
Yeah, it will be a
kind of justification,
00:26:20.21\00:26:22.73
for a kind of
policy of repression
00:26:22.74\00:26:25.26
and I think we have
to be aware of that.
00:26:25.27\00:26:27.52
We are living in a global world
00:26:27.53\00:26:29.38
and everything we
can say in a country
00:26:29.39\00:26:31.94
where you have
freedom can be interpreted
00:26:31.95\00:26:33.84
as an insult or an
attack in a country,
00:26:33.85\00:26:36.39
where you don't
have religious freedom
00:26:36.40\00:26:38.39
and in this case
religious minority,
00:26:38.40\00:26:40.83
minorities maybe
or will be persecuted.
00:26:40.84\00:26:44.49
As the flames from
the wooden structures
00:26:46.10\00:26:48.96
that have been wrapped in
00:26:48.97\00:26:50.33
a profuse
amount of toilet paper,
00:26:50.34\00:26:52.94
lit up and the
brightness of the flames
00:26:52.95\00:26:56.04
actually shown off the
faces of those gathered around.
00:26:56.05\00:26:59.20
I had a moment of
fear that the occasion
00:26:59.21\00:27:01.54
with 13,000 young
people had gathered
00:27:01.55\00:27:04.13
to celebrate religious
freedom in Santa Domingo,
00:27:04.14\00:27:07.55
Dominican Republic is going
be turned into a tragic affair.
00:27:07.56\00:27:11.36
It was not so,
but I'll never forget
00:27:11.37\00:27:14.15
the generation
of crowd excitement,
00:27:14.16\00:27:17.65
the excited faces
the young peoples energy
00:27:17.66\00:27:21.52
as they celebrated the
reality of religious freedom.
00:27:21.53\00:27:24.98
And the fact that all young
people should cheer enough.
00:27:24.99\00:27:27.51
This has become a phenomenon
as our program discussed.
00:27:27.52\00:27:30.68
We want more people
not just in Santa Domingo,
00:27:30.69\00:27:33.60
not so in just
these other countries
00:27:33.61\00:27:35.37
where actual
events will be held,
00:27:35.38\00:27:37.37
but all people around the world.
00:27:37.38\00:27:39.24
You, who are
watching this program
00:27:39.25\00:27:41.50
to cherish religious
liberty as something exciting
00:27:41.51\00:27:45.44
not to be
described in the negative.
00:27:45.45\00:27:47.22
Some people don't have it
00:27:47.23\00:27:48.51
at least in the secular sense,
00:27:48.52\00:27:50.06
but God has given all of us,
00:27:50.07\00:27:52.88
the precious gift
of religious freedom.
00:27:52.89\00:27:55.45
Something to
cherish and to proclaim
00:27:55.46\00:27:58.12
and to indeed celebrate.
00:27:58.13\00:28:01.18
With Liberty Insider
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:28:01.19\00:28:03.90