Welcome to the Liberty Insider. 00:00:21.90\00:00:23.34 This is the program that brings you up to date 00:00:24.07\00:00:25.98 information and discussion on religious 00:00:26.01\00:00:28.04 liberty issues. My name is Lincoln Steed, 00:00:28.07\00:00:30.79 editor of Liberty Magazine and my guest 00:00:30.82\00:00:33.71 on the program is Ben. Thanks for having me. 00:00:33.74\00:00:37.05 Welcome back Ben. You wanna a little bit 00:00:37.08\00:00:40.03 of your background, others may not, 00:00:40.06\00:00:41.62 some of the viewers may not have 00:00:41.65\00:00:43.16 seen you on previous programs. 00:00:43.19\00:00:44.78 Well, I don't do a lot of previous programs. 00:00:44.81\00:00:47.04 I tend to work behind the camera instead of in 00:00:47.07\00:00:48.42 front of it. Yes. You're part of the 3ABN machine, 00:00:48.45\00:00:53.49 yeah. And we've had a lot of discussions 00:00:53.52\00:00:56.25 in the past and I know you're very literate 00:00:56.28\00:00:59.41 and aware of the issues that we discussed. Baptist, 00:00:59.44\00:01:01.46 that's a group you're familiar with, right? 00:01:03.55\00:01:06.70 Yeah, yeah, I actually attend, I'm a member of 00:01:06.73\00:01:08.67 a Seventh-day Baptist and my father is a 00:01:08.70\00:01:11.54 Seventh-day Baptist minister as well as 00:01:11.57\00:01:13.24 a history teacher. So, that's why I enjoy the 00:01:13.27\00:01:15.76 subjects that we talk about on this program. 00:01:15.79\00:01:17.39 Now, when you talk about religious liberty 00:01:17.42\00:01:19.58 in the United States you can't really describe it 00:01:19.61\00:01:22.71 without some reference to the Baptist. 00:01:22.74\00:01:24.90 There's a pretty extensive history that the Baptist 00:01:25.50\00:01:27.68 have it in the beginnings of course, 00:01:27.71\00:01:29.35 the Baptist were a minority in the beginning, 00:01:30.01\00:01:32.04 so they were very worried about, 00:01:32.07\00:01:33.97 and persecuted minority, yeah. Lot of the times we 00:01:34.00\00:01:39.27 were discussing religious liberty and the separation 00:01:39.30\00:01:41.48 of church and the state. We hack back to comment 00:01:41.51\00:01:45.16 or something that Thomas Jefferson wrote 00:01:45.19\00:01:48.00 in letter to The Danbury Baptist, Baptist, yes. 00:01:48.03\00:01:52.27 You wanna fill us in a little bit. 00:01:52.30\00:01:53.78 It started about with a letter from the 00:01:53.81\00:01:55.62 Danbury Baptist to Thomas Jefferson and he was 00:01:55.65\00:01:59.43 in Connecticut. He sent a letter dated October 7, 00:02:00.37\00:02:02.61 1801 to the new elected President Thomas Jefferson 00:02:02.64\00:02:06.65 and basically in essence he wrote, the 00:02:06.68\00:02:08.02 religion at all times and places is a matter between, 00:02:09.86\00:02:12.01 oh I'm sorry. "Our sentiments are uniformly on the side 00:02:12.04\00:02:14.25 of Religious Liberty, that religion is at all times 00:02:14.28\00:02:17.33 and places a matter between God and individuals. 00:02:17.36\00:02:19.83 That no man ought to suffer in name, person, 00:02:20.47\00:02:22.84 or effects on account of his religion, 00:02:23.45\00:02:24.86 opinions that legitimate the legitimate Power of civil 00:02:24.89\00:02:28.53 government extends no further than to punish 00:02:28.56\00:02:30.89 the man who works ill to his neighbor." 00:02:30.92\00:02:32.46 So, he was limiting the role of, in his outline there, 00:02:32.49\00:02:35.72 clearly limiting the role of the state to 00:02:35.75\00:02:37.93 deal with religious matters, wasn't he? 00:02:37.96\00:02:39.51 Absolutely and of course that 00:02:39.54\00:02:40.90 coming from the background. 00:02:40.93\00:02:41.90 I'm sorry and then lettered to him and then he 00:02:41.91\00:02:43.60 reiterated that in his statement about the 00:02:43.63\00:02:45.69 separation, and a wall of separation, 00:02:45.72\00:02:47.88 wall of separation, absolutely. 00:02:47.91\00:02:48.93 This is a very contentious issue nowadays because 00:02:50.62\00:02:54.57 I've been to meetings of well meaning religionists 00:02:54.60\00:02:57.85 to give a term different I usually say religious 00:02:57.88\00:03:00.24 right but that's little misleading, 00:03:00.27\00:03:01.95 with they will say openly. We don't believe in the 00:03:01.98\00:03:05.16 separation of church and state, 00:03:05.19\00:03:06.55 that's not a constitutional term and they're half right, 00:03:06.58\00:03:11.00 right? You remember from your civics class reading 00:03:11.03\00:03:15.77 that in the constitution anywhere, 00:03:15.80\00:03:18.13 the first amendment says congress shall make 00:03:19.77\00:03:22.41 no law that prohibits, establishing a religion 00:03:22.44\00:03:25.09 or prevent the free exercise, correct. 00:03:25.12\00:03:27.28 That sort of adds up to what amounts 00:03:28.52\00:03:30.35 to a separation of church and state, but 00:03:30.38\00:03:31.85 it was Thomas Jefferson that coined that term 00:03:31.88\00:03:34.94 if you like in that Wall of Separation, 00:03:34.97\00:03:36.67 the Wall of Separation. That was in response 00:03:36.70\00:03:40.36 to the Danbury Baptist too and when he framed 00:03:40.39\00:03:43.03 that law almost he used word for word with the 00:03:43.06\00:03:44.99 Danbury Baptist group it actually written to him, 00:03:45.02\00:03:47.88 yeah. So, its a very important moment then 00:03:47.91\00:03:50.53 in the history of the U.S. in particular 00:03:50.56\00:03:52.65 church-state relationships. 00:03:53.58\00:03:56.37 Well, he hits on some interesting things too 00:03:56.40\00:03:58.14 that basically the duty of the law is to protect 00:03:58.17\00:04:01.97 someone from committing ill against his neighbor, 00:04:02.00\00:04:04.46 but there was no way to govern over 00:04:05.17\00:04:06.56 one's religious affairs. So, that kind of limits now 00:04:06.59\00:04:10.03 if we live in a government or a time that they 00:04:10.06\00:04:12.51 start imposing those type of censoring what is said 00:04:12.54\00:04:15.68 or not said. What is our duty as Christians and. 00:04:15.71\00:04:19.12 That's the real rub, isn't it? The Baptist had been 00:04:19.86\00:04:24.23 persecuted quite a bit in the early colonies before 00:04:24.26\00:04:28.18 the U.S. was formed as a republic. 00:04:28.21\00:04:31.36 One familiar with a little bit of the Seventh-Day 00:04:31.39\00:04:33.32 Baptist history that they were persecuted not 00:04:33.35\00:04:36.25 accepted as members of the Christian faith. 00:04:36.28\00:04:38.99 They were actually persecuted for being 00:04:39.02\00:04:40.45 Seventh-Day Baptist. Sabbath-keepers in 00:04:40.48\00:04:42.00 particular and it wasn't until the revolutionary 00:04:42.03\00:04:44.16 war that when they were wanting soldiers 00:04:44.19\00:04:47.96 to fight against English occupation pretty much. 00:04:47.99\00:04:51.48 They lowered the standard. Yeah, 00:04:51.51\00:04:53.32 they lowered the standard and actually 00:04:53.35\00:04:54.32 kind of recognized that group, that the Seventh-day 00:04:54.33\00:04:56.53 Baptist basics and why would we wanna 00:04:56.56\00:04:57.54 come and fight for someone, 00:04:57.57\00:04:58.63 that's not gonna accept us either. 00:04:58.66\00:05:00.91 Were any of them imprisoned for their faith 00:05:02.52\00:05:04.13 during the time, I've heard counts of I mean there, 00:05:04.75\00:05:06.25 there was persecution from just like the Quakers. 00:05:06.28\00:05:08.28 Well, that's was about to mention the Quakers, 00:05:09.20\00:05:11.42 you know I studied US history and enjoyed it, 00:05:12.19\00:05:13.86 still do, I love history. And there's one thing 00:05:14.45\00:05:16.65 that's stuck in my mind from the early days 00:05:16.68\00:05:18.52 of the colonies in Boston. Hanging Quakers, 00:05:18.55\00:05:21.21 a couple of the Quakers were hanged. 00:05:21.24\00:05:22.90 When that the act itself is barbaric but 00:05:22.93\00:05:27.76 to do it to Quake is the whole point of the reason, 00:05:27.79\00:05:29.86 they were pacifists, sort of non-activist people, 00:05:29.89\00:05:35.30 they were really persecuted almost only because 00:05:36.14\00:05:39.10 they didn't actively subscribe to the prevailing 00:05:39.13\00:05:41.72 viewers. Not that they did much of anything. 00:05:41.75\00:05:43.39 In fact as I remember the death penalty was 00:05:45.41\00:05:47.69 threatened against them just for showing 00:05:47.72\00:05:49.84 up in Boston, yes. They really didn't have to do 00:05:49.87\00:05:52.79 much just to be a Quaker in Boston, 00:05:52.82\00:05:56.31 which had a lot do with the founding of Dutch 00:05:56.34\00:05:58.03 Pennsylvania was kind of Quaker, 00:05:58.06\00:05:59.70 right and as I've, I think I've pointed out even 00:06:00.49\00:06:02.65 on this program before we have a wonderful 00:06:02.68\00:06:05.05 tradition in this republic under the constitution but 00:06:05.08\00:06:08.34 the colonies individually before that have 00:06:08.37\00:06:12.62 a horrible record, you know it's Quakers in one area, 00:06:12.65\00:06:16.19 other non conformers in another, 00:06:17.22\00:06:18.34 almost everyone of the colonies in that colony 00:06:18.37\00:06:20.77 depending on who the dominate religious group 00:06:20.80\00:06:24.59 was, they persecuted most everybody else. 00:06:24.62\00:06:26.83 Which is kind of interesting but the fact that 00:06:28.01\00:06:29.43 they were Protestants themselves and having 00:06:29.46\00:06:32.08 come from religious persecution, 00:06:32.11\00:06:33.59 that's a very said thing and they were all united 00:06:33.62\00:06:35.50 in their hatred of Rome at that point. 00:06:35.53\00:06:38.53 We've come a long, long way and in liberty, a number 00:06:39.72\00:06:41.43 of editorials lately, I have decried the fact 00:06:42.25\00:06:44.50 that Protestant America seems to have forgotten 00:06:44.53\00:06:46.81 its Protestantism and you know as critically 00:06:46.84\00:06:50.52 embracing the newly energized role of Rome, 00:06:50.55\00:06:53.70 but it is a good thin that we don't persecute 00:06:53.73\00:06:56.88 anymore. So in that regard we've come a long way, 00:06:57.54\00:06:59.66 I think there's tolerance between religions, 00:06:59.69\00:07:02.21 that's a product of that times and we would hope 00:07:02.24\00:07:05.84 of the constitution and new legal understandings. 00:07:05.87\00:07:08.50 But, you know you and I have spoken informally 00:07:09.41\00:07:11.56 outside of this program about the question of 00:07:11.59\00:07:14.16 government authority. How do I relate to the state, 00:07:14.19\00:07:18.83 you know Paul gave a very interesting sequence where 00:07:18.86\00:07:22.13 he said the authorities are instituted of God, 00:07:22.16\00:07:24.07 they exercise the sword not in vain and if you read 00:07:24.10\00:07:27.31 that simplistically you can almost see the state as 00:07:27.34\00:07:32.00 God on earth, if you're an American you can that. 00:07:32.03\00:07:34.91 God on earth, if you're can American you can see that. 00:07:34.94\00:07:35.91 If you live in Castro's Cuba it might be a little harder 00:07:35.92\00:07:38.04 to get or if you were living in Paul's Rome. 00:07:38.07\00:07:40.98 I think there's a dissidence there the 00:07:41.01\00:07:43.06 people miss when they read his words. 00:07:43.09\00:07:44.81 Well we as Christian Americans have been blessed 00:07:45.57\00:07:49.66 with that freedom as far as been able to voice 00:07:49.69\00:07:51.07 our opinions and as far as complying 00:07:51.10\00:07:53.41 with the laws we have, they not have been 00:07:53.44\00:07:55.16 oppressive laws so it's easy to comply with the law 00:07:55.19\00:07:57.73 and we read that, if we interrupted what Paul 00:07:57.76\00:08:00.28 said that way, it's not such an hard thing to take, 00:08:00.31\00:08:03.57 but if were into I wouldn't expect someone 00:08:03.60\00:08:06.85 in that foreign country though to abide by that 00:08:06.88\00:08:08.24 same rule. And so while their laws are wrong, 00:08:08.27\00:08:11.27 so they have a duty to not listen to them. 00:08:11.30\00:08:13.92 If they're gonna instruct them to not be Christians. 00:08:14.60\00:08:17.31 Now, that's the, I do feel like you in United States 00:08:17.89\00:08:24.05 and where I come from in Australia, 00:08:24.08\00:08:25.91 any number mostly western countries but 00:08:25.94\00:08:28.45 you know there's a sprinkling of progressive 00:08:28.48\00:08:30.91 regimes around the world that acknowledge 00:08:30.94\00:08:32.66 the rights and allow the involvement of individuals, 00:08:33.45\00:08:36.90 you know they good systems of human governance. 00:08:36.93\00:08:39.72 But, you know what about the other countries. 00:08:40.46\00:08:42.78 Do you say they were legitimate, 00:08:43.94\00:08:45.01 I basically think that no matter what the country is, 00:08:45.73\00:08:47.95 you are to support it as a Christian because you 00:08:47.98\00:08:52.52 are for the smooth running of any human ordnance. 00:08:52.55\00:08:56.16 You support it until or unless and until it asks 00:08:56.83\00:09:01.00 you to do something that goes against what God 00:09:01.03\00:09:03.62 asks of you. So, we're not inherently pro-democratic, 00:09:03.65\00:09:08.89 we're not inherently pro or whatever Communists 00:09:08.92\00:09:12.88 whatever. At a certain level I think at least 00:09:12.91\00:09:15.58 as far as the practice of faith doesn't mean 00:09:15.61\00:09:17.69 a Christian could not be a political figure 00:09:17.72\00:09:20.73 in any system. Yeah, you know we were talking 00:09:20.76\00:09:23.69 about Daniel, you know he held high position in a, 00:09:23.72\00:09:28.83 how do we characterize that government, 00:09:28.86\00:09:32.23 the dictatorship if nothing else. 00:09:32.26\00:09:33.97 Well a kingship for sure, yeah that was not a 00:09:34.67\00:09:36.97 regime that the western world would find friendly, 00:09:37.00\00:09:39.36 but he had a legitimate role to play there and he 00:09:40.02\00:09:42.80 definitely kept his integrity as follower 00:09:42.83\00:09:46.23 of God. Absolutely, well of course I've grown up 00:09:47.59\00:09:49.33 having read to the account of Daniel praying 00:09:50.14\00:09:52.04 and he probably doesn't avoid and he just closes 00:09:52.07\00:09:53.35 window and I think that was, there was a public 00:09:53.38\00:09:56.42 statement he was making of that because 00:09:56.45\00:09:59.10 we read in the New Testament talks about reading our, 00:09:59.13\00:10:01.49 praying in our prayer closets. So that's kind 00:10:01.52\00:10:03.35 of a private thing and we pray, 00:10:03.38\00:10:04.66 so why did he pray publicly and I think it was because 00:10:04.69\00:10:07.14 he was making a statement that into regardless 00:10:07.17\00:10:10.30 of what the secular law says I've a higher 00:10:10.33\00:10:12.80 law that I have to abide by, right. 00:10:12.83\00:10:14.73 Well, you know I hope I've said it on this program 00:10:15.37\00:10:17.53 before but it's a thing that's stirring me more 00:10:17.56\00:10:20.10 and more I think it's a question ultimately comes 00:10:20.13\00:10:22.29 back to the authority. Who has the authority? 00:10:22.32\00:10:25.70 The Protestant reformation was not about 00:10:28.45\00:10:30.83 indulgences per say, it was fought on the authority, 00:10:30.86\00:10:34.42 did the priests and by extension the church 00:10:34.45\00:10:37.23 have the authority to tell the man in the street 00:10:37.26\00:10:40.80 how to practice his religion, how to get in 00:10:41.67\00:10:43.59 touch with God, Protestantism decided no. 00:10:43.62\00:10:46.19 I have to look directly to God. He's the controlling 00:10:46.99\00:10:49.42 authority not the stricture of the church necessary 00:10:49.45\00:10:53.22 as that might be and on the state same thing. 00:10:53.25\00:10:56.83 It has not necessarily a delegated authority, 00:10:58.06\00:11:01.23 this is where I interpret Paul differently, 00:11:01.26\00:11:03.68 it's not a delegated authority, its an assumed 00:11:03.71\00:11:05.86 authority of the state. In an ideal world as 00:11:05.89\00:11:08.62 we saw in the Old Testament which itself was a 00:11:08.65\00:11:10.69 remodeling for human purposes God ruled 00:11:11.75\00:11:16.14 his people in the perfect heaven which will be one day, 00:11:16.17\00:11:21.34 you know God will be, they'll be no temple even, 00:11:22.75\00:11:24.63 God is the light and people respond to him. 00:11:24.66\00:11:27.58 So, the state doesn't have authority it's 00:11:28.43\00:11:30.98 taken an authority that would otherwise exist 00:11:31.01\00:11:34.49 of God but its, its legitimacy only extends 00:11:34.52\00:11:37.76 to the interaction of human beings for civil 00:11:37.79\00:11:41.42 peace and smooth running on spiritual 00:11:41.45\00:11:44.22 matters the authority is with God. 00:11:44.25\00:11:47.40 It almost seems to be human nature to that even 00:11:47.43\00:11:49.38 if we're following what we've deemed to be right 00:11:49.41\00:11:52.19 and correct scripturally that almost we want other 00:11:52.22\00:11:54.58 people to follow that too, so sometimes excesses 00:11:54.61\00:11:57.19 can exit where we want to force our beliefs or. 00:11:57.22\00:12:00.44 Well, it human nature and as we're discussing it, 00:12:00.47\00:12:03.23 lets talk and I need to explain this adequately, 00:12:03.26\00:12:06.23 but I think. Well, you can look to history 00:12:06.26\00:12:08.50 and see plenty of evidence of the Medieval Catholic 00:12:08.53\00:12:11.43 Church that was the dominant Christian strain there. 00:12:11.46\00:12:14.27 They persecuted which is not defensible but 00:12:14.30\00:12:17.08 I think human beings what they are any majority 00:12:17.11\00:12:19.75 of religious faction within a country will naturally, 00:12:19.78\00:12:23.11 unfortunately naturally tend to impose their view 00:12:23.14\00:12:26.57 on the other. And Baptist, Adventist could just 00:12:26.60\00:12:31.16 as easily left to their own devices try to compile. But 00:12:31.19\00:12:35.42 this matter of authority, of tolerance which 00:12:36.66\00:12:39.84 is really a bad word but religious accommodation 00:12:39.87\00:12:42.20 and who is the controlling authority, church, state, 00:12:42.23\00:12:47.00 or God ultimately, these are very significant issues. 00:12:47.67\00:12:50.77 We'll be back after the break. 00:12:50.80\00:12:52.20 One hundred years, a long time to do anything, 00:13:01.14\00:13:04.29 much less publish a magazine but this year Liberty, 00:13:04.97\00:13:08.54 the Seventh-day Adventist voice of religious freedom 00:13:08.89\00:13:11.14 celebrates 100 years of doing what it does best, 00:13:11.17\00:13:14.69 collecting, analyzing and reporting the ebb 00:13:14.72\00:13:17.90 and flow of religious expression around the world. 00:13:17.93\00:13:20.49 Issue after issue, Liberty has taken on the tough 00:13:20.52\00:13:24.50 assignments, tracking down threats to religious freedom 00:13:24.53\00:13:27.43 and exposing the work of the devil in every corner 00:13:27.46\00:13:29.91 of the globe. Governmental interference, 00:13:29.94\00:13:32.20 personal attacks, corporate assaults, 00:13:32.23\00:13:34.74 even the religious freedom issues sequestered 00:13:34.77\00:13:37.21 within the church community itself have been clearly 00:13:37.24\00:13:39.26 and honestly exposed. Liberty exists for one 00:13:39.29\00:13:43.23 purpose, to help God's people maintain that all 00:13:43.26\00:13:46.78 important separation of church and state while 00:13:46.81\00:13:49.61 recognizing the dangers inherent in such a struggle. 00:13:49.64\00:13:52.52 During the past century, Liberty has experienced 00:13:53.54\00:13:55.73 challenges of it's own, but it remains on the job. 00:13:55.76\00:13:58.93 Thanks to the inspired leadership of a long 00:13:59.66\00:14:01.66 line of dedicated Adventist editors, 00:14:01.69\00:14:03.43 three of whom represent almost half of the 00:14:03.46\00:14:05.72 publications existence and the foresight 00:14:05.75\00:14:08.23 of a little woman from New England. 00:14:08.26\00:14:09.83 One hundred years of struggle, 00:14:09.86\00:14:12.27 one hundred years of victories, 00:14:12.30\00:14:14.39 religious freedom isn't just about political 00:14:14.42\00:14:17.19 machines and cultural prejudices. 00:14:17.22\00:14:19.26 It's about people fighting for the right to serve 00:14:19.78\00:14:22.96 the God they love as their hearts and the 00:14:22.99\00:14:25.84 Holy Spirit dictate. Thanks to the prayers 00:14:25.87\00:14:28.83 and generous support of Seventh-Day Adventists 00:14:28.86\00:14:31.28 everywhere. Liberty will continue to accomplish 00:14:31.31\00:14:34.23 its work of providing timely information, 00:14:34.26\00:14:36.18 spirit-filled inspiration in heaven sent encouragement 00:14:36.21\00:14:39.54 to all who long to live and work in a world bound 00:14:39.57\00:14:44.08 together by the God ordained 00:14:44.11\00:14:45.80 bonds of religious freedom. 00:14:45.83\00:14:48.26 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider, 00:14:59.36\00:15:00.61 before the break with Ben, I was talking about 00:15:00.64\00:15:04.10 the question of authority and authority between 00:15:04.13\00:15:06.78 responding to God or state exercising what it sees 00:15:06.81\00:15:11.64 as its authority, but where does one begin 00:15:11.67\00:15:13.60 one in the other end. You have some very 00:15:13.63\00:15:15.27 interesting quotes there from some English 00:15:15.30\00:15:17.62 Baptists in the early 1600s. 00:15:17.65\00:15:19.97 Right, those back to 1612 it was John Smyth wrote, 00:15:20.00\00:15:22.72 "the magistrate is not by virtue of his office 00:15:22.75\00:15:25.03 to meddle with religion or matters of conscience." 00:15:25.06\00:15:27.67 And there's another quote that same year came 00:15:28.42\00:15:29.68 from Thomas, I'm sorry the last name Helwys, 00:15:29.71\00:15:32.84 Helwys yeah wrote that, "the King of England 00:15:32.87\00:15:34.84 could command of man what he will, 00:15:34.87\00:15:36.77 and we are to obey it, but concerning the church 00:15:36.80\00:15:39.61 with this Kingdom, our Lord the King 00:15:39.64\00:15:42.60 hath nothing to do." This is almost a revelatory 00:15:42.63\00:15:48.02 tendency to that stuff, because as I said 00:15:48.05\00:15:51.50 on this program before Baptist, non-conformers, 00:15:51.53\00:15:54.94 puritans, a whole slew of them really co-list within 00:15:54.97\00:15:59.45 a generation and they ended up fighting 00:15:59.48\00:16:02.85 on the wining side in the civil war against the King, 00:16:02.88\00:16:05.94 who is with all the other Kings of Europe 00:16:07.12\00:16:09.58 was seen as having almost the prerogatives of God 00:16:09.61\00:16:11.91 on earth and they condemned him in the court 00:16:11.94\00:16:15.00 of law and cut his head off. 00:16:15.03\00:16:16.28 Then they ended up with going too forward 00:16:17.04\00:16:19.58 on their own too, that they restricted any type 00:16:19.61\00:16:22.93 of theater and that's what I was about to get, 00:16:22.96\00:16:25.26 since the magistrate shall not do this, 00:16:25.29\00:16:27.55 he shouldn't exercise the, well the, 00:16:27.58\00:16:30.00 Oliver Cromwell have the major generals it was called, 00:16:30.03\00:16:33.11 he divided England up into districts and appointed 00:16:33.14\00:16:36.96 a major general, a military commander over each, 00:16:36.99\00:16:39.22 but he wasn't just a civil magistrate, 00:16:39.25\00:16:41.79 he determine how they practiced religion and 00:16:41.82\00:16:44.80 monitored it very closely and they were fines 00:16:44.83\00:16:47.09 and even imprisonment if people practice religion 00:16:47.12\00:16:49.76 differently than the major general mandate. 00:16:49.79\00:16:52.34 Which kind of smacked in the face of what 00:16:52.37\00:16:54.08 was been a Protestant belief as the freedom 00:16:54.11\00:16:56.51 of conscience, exactly. And I'm always hacking 00:16:56.54\00:17:00.05 on this because I've just had a burden 00:17:00.08\00:17:01.97 that it's the forgotten element, 00:17:02.00\00:17:03.57 or the forgotten antecedent to religious 00:17:03.60\00:17:05.78 liberty in the United States. But, 00:17:05.81\00:17:06.91 it illustrates two things, first of all the excesses 00:17:07.77\00:17:10.73 that lead to the civil war where the King was making 00:17:10.76\00:17:14.14 claims of authority that I think were unwarranted, 00:17:14.17\00:17:16.80 its the divine right of Kings is running with 00:17:16.83\00:17:20.77 Paul's statements about the authorities exercise 00:17:20.80\00:17:24.07 the sword not in vain and so. 00:17:24.10\00:17:25.36 That's taking it to a point that Paul couldn't surely 00:17:25.39\00:17:27.60 not have meant, in no way was he applying 00:17:27.63\00:17:30.47 that to Rome, yeah that was the persecuting power 00:17:30.50\00:17:33.27 and then this religious coalition that was very 00:17:34.45\00:17:37.68 Biblically based, they were religious zealots, 00:17:37.71\00:17:41.14 the Taliban like fervor, but once they established 00:17:41.17\00:17:47.32 this religious regime in England under the 00:17:47.35\00:17:49.97 protectorate then they went absolutely too far 00:17:50.00\00:17:53.09 in compelling obedience themselves. 00:17:53.12\00:17:55.08 There was dictatorship and so I think both what 00:17:56.53\00:17:59.01 they reacted against and then the religious regime 00:17:59.04\00:18:01.48 they created at both aberrations that we need 00:18:01.51\00:18:04.27 to be careful of. The civil law aberration and the 00:18:04.30\00:18:09.88 religious civil law where it's religious dictatorship, 00:18:09.91\00:18:13.47 both of those would be avoided and thankfully 00:18:13.50\00:18:16.29 blessedly because of the Lord's providence 00:18:16.32\00:18:18.67 I think in the United States 00:18:18.70\00:18:19.67 we haven't seen either extreme yet. 00:18:19.70\00:18:21.31 Well the seeds are all, the seeds can exist 00:18:22.70\00:18:24.99 in any country, we saw just the little glimmerings 00:18:25.02\00:18:29.24 in the last 8 years or so where religious affections 00:18:29.27\00:18:33.10 could actually spur civil policies to unwarranted 00:18:33.13\00:18:37.29 extent and taken to the vanishing point that 00:18:37.32\00:18:39.59 would have not been good. 00:18:39.62\00:18:40.59 We've also seen in many religionists decrying 00:18:40.62\00:18:44.83 at unreligious liberty and attempt to increase 00:18:44.86\00:18:48.89 the civil pass so much that it gets rid of religion 00:18:49.10\00:18:51.59 from public places that's not good anyway. 00:18:51.62\00:18:53.36 But, you do have certain issues that 00:18:53.39\00:18:55.35 we as Christians we face, the same sex marriages, 00:18:55.38\00:18:59.57 you got abortion so then, so then I as a Christian 00:18:59.60\00:19:03.20 and what grounds I use the leverage of authority 00:19:03.23\00:19:06.75 do I use to say that I disagree like something 00:19:06.78\00:19:09.62 like abortion. Do I speak out against it, 00:19:09.65\00:19:11.49 do I use politics to affect the means? 00:19:11.52\00:19:14.21 I have semi heretical views on it, 00:19:14.24\00:19:17.19 I'll devolved myself of it. Obviously like Paul 00:19:17.22\00:19:21.17 we are to use the legitimate levers of power 00:19:21.20\00:19:25.17 that are given to us, he was a Roman citizen, 00:19:25.20\00:19:27.25 he was not only within his rights, 00:19:27.28\00:19:28.91 he would have been neglect as a citizen 00:19:28.94\00:19:31.79 if he didn't appeal through the channels 00:19:31.82\00:19:34.00 and ultimately to Caesar. You know, 00:19:34.03\00:19:36.58 the authorities as you can read in Acts. 00:19:36.61\00:19:39.44 They didn't think badly of him for calling upon 00:19:39.47\00:19:42.29 that right. That was expected and in a free 00:19:42.32\00:19:46.55 society with the separation of church and state, 00:19:46.58\00:19:49.14 that's the result of the first amendment 00:19:49.17\00:19:51.06 I think we're within our civil rights to speak out, 00:19:51.09\00:19:54.44 to cry justice, cry church and state kept separate, 00:19:54.47\00:19:59.38 but ultimately I believe our real purpose is spiritual, 00:19:59.41\00:20:03.67 if religionist people of faith whether they're 00:20:03.70\00:20:06.91 Protestants, Catholics, or non-Christians. 00:20:06.94\00:20:10.13 If they mix their religious initiatives so much 00:20:10.16\00:20:16.50 with the state that they want to corrupt 00:20:16.53\00:20:18.22 the state to advance that, 00:20:18.25\00:20:20.05 I think there's danger there. Oh absolutely. 00:20:20.08\00:20:22.61 I really believe that Liberty magazine which goes 00:20:22.64\00:20:25.13 out to the politicians and these thought leaders 00:20:25.16\00:20:27.40 its main role is to effect thinking not legislation. 00:20:27.43\00:20:31.31 But, on the same token, we do want to see 00:20:31.34\00:20:33.81 our political leaders have some morality to them. 00:20:33.84\00:20:36.59 That's the whole point, yeah, 00:20:36.62\00:20:38.47 we want to change how they see these issues 00:20:38.50\00:20:42.22 and all of our fellows citizens, 00:20:42.25\00:20:44.85 because if you have a citizenry that is the frame 00:20:44.88\00:20:49.47 as often said, accepting and as a norm 00:20:49.50\00:20:55.24 they are Christians with the assumptions of 00:20:55.27\00:20:57.36 Christian life and practice that goes with that. 00:20:57.39\00:20:59.84 Then that public morality will express itself through 00:20:59.87\00:21:04.33 just laws and good governance. 00:21:04.36\00:21:06.51 But to turn it on its head and for a few people 00:21:06.54\00:21:10.43 of faith in a prevailing time of wickedness 00:21:10.46\00:21:12.63 to try to strike straight at the center of power 00:21:12.66\00:21:16.08 and pass a law that will mandate public morality. 00:21:17.02\00:21:19.86 You have really got problems and I myself think 00:21:20.54\00:21:23.77 that just one example of that recently was the 00:21:23.80\00:21:25.90 Proposition 8 initiative in California, 00:21:25.93\00:21:29.99 where determining same whether same sex marriages 00:21:30.89\00:21:33.88 were legitimate. In reaction a Christian moral based, 00:21:33.91\00:21:37.48 morality based reaction to the gay move 00:21:37.51\00:21:40.97 or the move toward gay marriage. 00:21:41.00\00:21:42.71 They were bringing in Proposition 8 which 00:21:42.74\00:21:45.93 would have defined I mean the past, 00:21:45.96\00:21:48.50 to define marriages between a man and woman, 00:21:48.53\00:21:52.55 which the Bible is quite plan on. 00:21:52.58\00:21:54.54 I mean that's the model of marriage, 00:21:54.57\00:21:57.41 not just Christian marriage its biblical marriage, yes. 00:21:57.44\00:22:00.25 And so to, for a religious reason, 00:22:02.04\00:22:04.63 to have the state now pass a super law that defines 00:22:04.66\00:22:08.29 it on a Christian terms. I can't see that as anything 00:22:08.32\00:22:12.33 else much other than to use state 00:22:12.36\00:22:15.05 power to enforce a religious mandate. 00:22:15.08\00:22:17.29 I disagree a little bit and on this token that 00:22:17.99\00:22:20.26 if you don't define it then where does it end, 00:22:20.29\00:22:24.01 is it end with a, okay we can marry eight year olds 00:22:24.04\00:22:27.05 or we can marry inanimate objects, 00:22:27.08\00:22:29.18 I mean where does it end and so 00:22:29.21\00:22:30.33 I think there needs to be some definition 00:22:30.36\00:22:31.74 to what marriage is. The state has always 00:22:31.77\00:22:34.29 defined such things. Well then that was the point, 00:22:34.32\00:22:36.41 that was the point in the Proposition 8 then. 00:22:36.44\00:22:38.22 The point in the Proposition 8 is people of 00:22:38.25\00:22:41.30 Christian point of view are trying to stop 00:22:41.33\00:22:46.25 what they see as a movement by other 00:22:46.28\00:22:47.78 citizens by passing a law that is describing 00:22:47.81\00:22:51.57 their particular religious view point. And 00:22:51.60\00:22:53.51 that's fine, I don't mind a law that is in parallel 00:22:55.20\00:22:58.10 with my viewpoint. But a law that is there 00:22:58.13\00:23:00.84 because it is my viewpoint, is putting religious 00:23:00.87\00:23:05.33 views toward the populous and further, 00:23:05.36\00:23:09.35 it makes the state to proxy for spiritual authorities. 00:23:10.43\00:23:13.90 Because marriage is not marriage because 00:23:14.88\00:23:16.41 the state says it is. Marriage is marriage because 00:23:16.44\00:23:18.97 God in Eden instituting marriage mandated it 00:23:19.00\00:23:24.00 and then it's formalized in a church context 00:23:24.03\00:23:26.16 and solemnized before God not before the state. 00:23:26.19\00:23:29.56 Just signing a civil register, doesn't make it 00:23:29.59\00:23:33.03 a marriage in the eyes of God. 00:23:33.06\00:23:34.87 So they're not in your view and of course 00:23:35.82\00:23:37.47 I think this could be stated that the government 00:23:37.50\00:23:39.98 really shouldn't have any involvement 00:23:40.01\00:23:41.21 as far as marriage is concerned. 00:23:41.24\00:23:42.50 That's strictly between individuals and 00:23:42.53\00:23:45.05 or their religious beliefs then. 00:23:45.08\00:23:46.87 It has an interest in civil relationship 00:23:46.90\00:23:50.38 of inheritances because those are matters 00:23:50.41\00:23:53.86 that the state's concerned about, 00:23:53.89\00:23:55.16 care like hospital and so on. Of course they have 00:23:56.92\00:23:58.70 a care in that, but that doesn't really have 00:23:58.73\00:24:01.09 a moral component like even when I fill out 00:24:01.12\00:24:04.28 my tax fulfillment out, most to know who my 00:24:04.31\00:24:06.40 dependents are and so on. 00:24:06.43\00:24:07.73 Nothing doing with marriage I mean that's just 00:24:07.76\00:24:09.35 people that maybe under my responsibility in my 00:24:09.38\00:24:12.44 household. So those sort of relationships of the states. 00:24:12.47\00:24:15.94 And I think we're in the process of mudding 00:24:16.82\00:24:18.70 it greatly which probably won't have huge 00:24:18.73\00:24:22.64 ramifications immediately, but the area that 00:24:22.67\00:24:25.78 its dangerous on is the matter of authority. 00:24:25.81\00:24:27.73 If we have passed to the state that it determines 00:24:27.76\00:24:30.37 this contentious issue of what is marriage 00:24:32.21\00:24:33.97 and what is Christian? I feel it is if 00:24:34.00\00:24:35.66 we give it the right, we could just as easily 00:24:35.69\00:24:37.99 pass up the right since there's much Sabbath 00:24:38.02\00:24:40.16 breaking and secularism in society. 00:24:40.19\00:24:42.84 Why not say well, lets stop all of that, 00:24:42.87\00:24:45.29 you know lets have the state mandate 00:24:46.40\00:24:47.83 a day of rest, why not, it's on the same thing 00:24:47.86\00:24:51.75 and almost immediately you're a 00:24:51.78\00:24:54.81 Seventh-Day Baptist, I'm Seventh-Day Adventist, 00:24:54.84\00:24:58.17 we probably lose out on that, 00:24:59.71\00:25:00.73 we're not in the majority, probably be Sunday. 00:25:00.76\00:25:02.77 I would be must offended if the State 00:25:02.80\00:25:05.69 decided what was a true day of rest. 00:25:05.72\00:25:08.10 Well, then that's key to not, I guess probably 00:25:09.48\00:25:12.16 involved with politics when they comes to, 00:25:12.19\00:25:14.03 that's my point, its not that, 00:25:14.06\00:25:15.07 this not the end point because this isn't 00:25:15.10\00:25:17.99 the end point, this position now is not good 00:25:18.02\00:25:20.17 that they're affirmed it, but I think they have 00:25:20.20\00:25:22.84 in essence passed their, inadvertently passing 00:25:22.87\00:25:25.73 the authority to determine religiously loaded 00:25:25.76\00:25:29.07 issues to the state where it should 00:25:30.36\00:25:31.81 not be with the state. I guess it's difficult because 00:25:31.84\00:25:34.16 although it does have religious implications 00:25:34.82\00:25:36.32 but it also has legal implications. 00:25:36.35\00:25:39.07 So it was announced in why they weighed in on it, 00:25:39.10\00:25:41.49 because there is abuses that could 00:25:41.52\00:25:43.64 take place if you don't define it. 00:25:43.67\00:25:44.98 Well, I, you know I sounded up in this program 00:25:45.85\00:25:48.35 before I give we have a dynamic that things 00:25:48.38\00:25:51.34 to be discussed. I should think the people 00:25:51.37\00:25:54.12 of true Christian morality or religious sensibility 00:25:54.15\00:25:58.07 because not just Christians, 00:25:58.10\00:25:59.07 Muslims certainly and Jews would be troubled 00:25:59.08\00:26:03.34 by our society that more and more young people 00:26:03.37\00:26:05.42 you know cohabitate. And not always young 00:26:05.45\00:26:08.31 people there's plenty of secular couples 00:26:08.34\00:26:11.14 that have never been married. 00:26:11.17\00:26:12.42 They just live together for 20, 30 years. 00:26:13.32\00:26:14.81 That should be morally offensive to a person 00:26:15.77\00:26:19.05 of faith, the state regulates that just nicely 00:26:19.08\00:26:21.82 thank you, common law marriage has also to 00:26:21.85\00:26:23.66 legal obligations, do we want to pass some 00:26:23.69\00:26:27.11 super law to stop people living in sin. 00:26:27.14\00:26:30.20 Its not the job of our government to legislate 00:26:31.23\00:26:32.98 morality, we are thankful for the religious 00:26:33.01\00:26:35.73 liberties that we do have here in America 00:26:35.76\00:26:37.84 and we want to pass those views and help 00:26:37.87\00:26:40.32 other people to keep their religious liberties 00:26:40.35\00:26:43.03 and we're just thankful for the framers 00:26:43.06\00:26:44.57 of the constitution for adding that into the law. 00:26:44.60\00:26:47.38 Any discussion of the holocaust of necessity 00:26:48.55\00:26:51.02 minimizes what is almost incomprehensible 00:26:51.05\00:26:54.05 for humans. When the Allied forces 00:26:54.08\00:26:57.59 came into Germany and occupied it as the Nazis 00:26:57.62\00:27:00.54 fled and collapsed, they were horrified 00:27:00.57\00:27:03.13 by what they found. In recent years 00:27:03.16\00:27:05.46 we've looked at documentary footage and 00:27:05.49\00:27:07.89 it's almost incomprehensible to see sometimes 00:27:07.92\00:27:10.92 thousand of people lined up and shoot methodically. 00:27:10.95\00:27:13.46 To see bodies piled and moved by bulldozer 00:27:13.49\00:27:16.77 and to imagine the stench that permeated 00:27:16.80\00:27:19.73 the entire countryside and yet somehow 00:27:19.76\00:27:21.84 the German citizenry as they were forced 00:27:21.87\00:27:23.91 to file past were unaware of such things. 00:27:23.94\00:27:26.68 It is sad to realize that in Germany 00:27:27.68\00:27:30.06 and throughout much of occupied Europe, 00:27:30.09\00:27:32.44 the churches remained silent, why this was so, 00:27:32.47\00:27:35.96 we will probably never known. 00:27:35.99\00:27:37.31 But, there has been a tendency even of people 00:27:38.17\00:27:40.32 of faith to suspend their horror at certain 00:27:40.35\00:27:44.80 things that go on, because they don't want trouble. 00:27:44.83\00:27:46.63 I believe as followers of Jesus Christ 00:27:47.63\00:27:49.53 we have an obligation to speak out, 00:27:49.56\00:27:51.45 not to take necessarily political action, 00:27:52.53\00:27:55.43 but to speak out and as Peter said 00:27:55.98\00:27:57.74 we cannot help but speak of the things 00:27:57.77\00:28:00.82 that we see and know, but to speak of Jesus 00:28:00.85\00:28:02.87 and his justice. For Liberty Insider, 00:28:02.90\00:28:06.42 this is Lincoln Steed. 00:28:06.45\00:28:08.50