Welcome to the Liberty
Insider. This is the program
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that brings you up to date
news, views and information
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on religious liberty issues.
My name is Lincoln Steed,
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editor of Liberty
Magazine and with me today
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is Ben Burkhamer. Ben,
welcome to the program again.
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Thanks for this side.
And it's not the first time,
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but it's one of the
few times that you been on
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this side at 3ABN in the
studio often talked with you
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from behind the
camera. Also is one of my rare
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moments in front of the
camera. I have spent lot of
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time behind it but very
little time in front of it.
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That as I've learned you,
you're a man that has a lot
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of understanding on
these issues, so I want to talk
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with you today about on
this program particularly
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about the faith, office
of faith-based initiatives.
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Which on it faith sound
like a pretty good program.
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Any faith-based. If I
could say it, it's like
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Peter Piper, any faith-based
initiative would be good,
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an outreached from people
of faith to help the community.
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Well, that's what I think
we as Christian are almost
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prompted to go and
tell. We required, aren't we?
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Absolutely, that's
the blessing on the go,
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we need to go and preach
the gospel but where I guess
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where it comes into
controversy is how do we
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fund it? Given that
we've decided to do it,
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that's the fairly new
thing on this program before,
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I've sometimes even
railed, characterized the
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incumbents, railed at
the Bush administration
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conducting this
program as, what I thought was
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clearly designed to
enmesh to Church operations and
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government policy,
'cause that was really not
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acceptable in that open
way before just to reiterate
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for our viewers that may
not have seen those programs,
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even the Clinton
administration had a program
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called charitable
choice, where government moneys
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that were typically
used in welfare type program,
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job, education and so
on, would be funneled through
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churches to act this
proxies to do those functions
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as long as the Church
did not project their faith
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imperative, in other words
they were people that had a
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faith view, but they
did what the government
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wanted in a secular
manner. George Bush took it the
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next step and in his
office of faith-based initiative
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it was allowable for
the state to mix it's faith
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activity with dispensing
the money and that's where
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the Church and state became
sort of enmeshed in my view.
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Well, now, I don't
think it was necessarily a bad
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thing for these people
to obviously project their
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views but that the
problem comes in today.
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Well, it's a good thing
to project their views, yeah,
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you would expect that of
anybody with a deeply held
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viewpoint. Well, the danger
is when it comes down to is
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just accepting of
government moneys, right,
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because if the
government can dictate what I
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say if you are not going
to get it, it comes down to
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do I love the money
more then the message?
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And also from the
point of view of a taxpayer,
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do you want some of
your moneys going toward
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projecting a particular
religious viewpoint that you
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may find. Offensive
Offensive at worse or just
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a waste of time at
best. So, that's the argument
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that we bring to the
current situation, but
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what's happening
right now, I know you've got
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some information on
where we seem to be heading
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with this new administration.
Well, now under the
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Barack Obama's
administration, they're not
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getting ready the office
of faith-based initiatives.
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I think they've changed
the name. I'm not sure what
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the new name even is.
Yeah, and under the Bush
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administration it changed
a little because they were
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trying to. But the function,
the function is the same
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there are certain groups
who have the network in place
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basically to reach those
communities, whether there's
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impoverished people or
people that are hurting.
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And I think it's a positive
thing that, that they want
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to reach those people
and it shows the government
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does care for the people
on different levels there,
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but it's how they
force those people to express
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their views. Now back
tracking a bit because
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I said it before, but I
believe enough to repeat it
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my analysis of the last
run through which really was,
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how the office began
with the Bush administration
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by an executive
order, not by any legislation
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this really was
almost a compromise from the
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beginning and sadly it was
justified to a constituency
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that it would save money.
So you say, it's good thing
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to want to do good, but I
question even the motives,
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it was not to do more. It
was in some ways to do less
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but let religious
people do with less money?
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Oh! In the beginning
the charity belonged in the
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Church and when
government took over
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charity of course with a
state run welfare program.
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You have bureaucracy,
when you have bureaucracy
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you're gonna have a
sense of money. All some more
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of a sense than I thought
they will. But that's true,
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government as not usually
as affective doing things
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of the private people if
historically. Nor do I think
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that is their
function or role as government.
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We don't elect them to
do. It's certainly against
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the letter and the spirit
of the constitution to keep
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Church and State separate.
But anyhow we've had it
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for a while. Barack
Obama during the campaign was
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quite forthright that he
would do it in a bigger way.
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So we waited to
see what would happen.
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He's appointed a new
director. What's the new
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director? Joshua DuBois,
if I'm pronouncing right.
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One of his contacts from
the Chicago, Illinois area
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I think and we hope this
man organizes well. I don't
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really know anything
about him. The first director
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John Diiulio became
a severe critic of the
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Bush administration's
program and he's speaking
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very well of the new
structure 'cause he may have
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had it wrong
himself, whatever we say,
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but whole lot of that I've
picked up or the main thing
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I picked up is that
Barack Obama is very specific
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about something incorrectly
so. If this government
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money is funneled through
the churches they will have
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to be bound by
government regulations on
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anti-discrimination laws
so on in hiring and firing
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and so on. Which on it's
faith sounds positive but
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there's always,
there's inherent danger on that
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too. Oh! There's great
danger to a Church integrity,
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so the deduction I
would make if a Church
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wants to keep it's
faith perspective intact.
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It better not go into
such a program. Correct.
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Because, it will be
forced to compromise by the very
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real requirements of
the civil government that
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cannot show favoritism
that has to have uniform laws
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and application to the
taxpayers, it's using their
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money and it's under
obligation to reflect their
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views. Well, it also
might force that Church
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to weaken their stands on
how they minister to people,
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so they come across
the weaker stands because
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they've accept that
government money, so now
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they have to accept
the government's rule.
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And the whole purpose of
the faith-based office of
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the faith-based initiative
was to fund groups that
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were already in
existence. You have different
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denominations Protestant
and Catholic alike that
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have been well established
in communities as far as
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with the Red Cross
disaster relief agencies and
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I know you have some
contact with this. Yeah
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and apart from
working at 3ABN here, you were
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a police officer. Police
officer, and I work in the
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fire department, Fire
Department, so you know
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very well how the community
interacts on the funding
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and facilitation. Yes.
And have been on disaster
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scenes, where we've
had the Baptist men and the
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Red Cross and those
agencies they actually work
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well together and which is
a credit them as volunteers
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who want to do something
good for their community.
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But the issue comes
back to if they accept that
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government money will
it affect, their mission is
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already in place they
had to change their ministry,
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it never was the
purpose. Exactly and you know,
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you've spelled that very
well, the practical danger
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to the Churches. There
have been some challenges
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not just on this program
to the faith-based initiatives
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in years gone by
before the break or before the
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program we were
talking about supreme court
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challenge brought by a
group that even troubles me
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when I mention the name,
the freedom from religion
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foundation, tried to say
that is, they represented
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the taxpayers, and
this was improper for the
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White House to do this,
went all way to supreme court
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last year we were
doing this program, you know,
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so I know I did
come to the supreme court
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and they tried to
dodge a bullet in my view
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but in doing so
they've created a bad situation
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because they said that
this organization which doesn't
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like religion anyway.
I don't agree with the
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organization's overall
view point. They said this
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organization had no
standing. Now they're
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some affiliated with
the American Civil Liberties
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Union or similar as far
as ideology. Similar they're
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not affiliated with it,
but it's a secular view point,
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and the supreme court
said that they had no standing
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because they couldn't
represent the taxpayer
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and the taxpayer
couldn't challenge this because
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it was not legislative
appropriation. This was
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discretionary
spending out of the White House
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of it's budget which
we'll see whether that remains
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the case under the new
administration. But on that
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model, really nobody
can challenge it, it's very
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interesting. Well we
had this groups that were
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strong support of
separation Church statehood
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fight these issues and
it seemed like the American
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Civil Liberties Union
came out too with a similar
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statement it seemed like
they are almost mirroring
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the separation Church
and the State group but
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those people from
separation Church and State
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seem to come from
more Christian approach,
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their ideology was
more Christian and why they
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wanted separated versus
American Civil Liberties
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Union, that's true,
it was outright humanist.
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We've got be careful
everybody has a right to
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state their opinion.
There are some strange bad
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fellows in religious
liberty as in other endeavors
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and the Seventh-day
Adventist Church just to
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back track a little
on our views on religious
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liberty. The Seventh-day
Adventist Church from the
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very beginning had
religious liberty concerns
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and curiously enough as
they were concerned about
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eminent Sunday laws
which was red, you know,
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red letter concern for
Seventh-day Adventists,
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because they saw
prophecy fulfilling with US
00:10:35.04\00:10:37.50
heading towards the
Sunday law, at the very same
00:10:37.53\00:10:39.57
time Seventh-day
Adventists were involved
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in speaking out
publicly against drunkenness
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and the whole
saloon era access in the US
00:10:45.14\00:10:48.83
and we were often
allies with some of the same
00:10:49.13\00:10:51.76
groups who were pushing
for Sunday law that we're
00:10:51.79\00:10:54.10
opposing. So on
religious liberty it's the same.
00:10:54.13\00:10:56.82
There are certain groups
like the ACLU that advance
00:10:56.85\00:11:01.09
some of the Gay agenda
for example that I find
00:11:01.12\00:11:03.88
seriously problematic
and yet some of those
00:11:03.91\00:11:06.98
statements on pure civil
liberty issues, on religious
00:11:07.01\00:11:11.00
liberty. Are not off the
mark at all. And Americans
00:11:11.03\00:11:13.33
united for separation of
Church and State we often
00:11:13.36\00:11:15.85
see things the same way,
but their view point has become
00:11:17.42\00:11:19.95
severely anti-clerical or
anti-religious in my view.
00:11:19.98\00:11:23.65
Well, they go a step
further than just where we would
00:11:23.68\00:11:26.57
not church separated
from the state. They go as
00:11:26.60\00:11:29.00
far as to say that you
know even certain customs,
00:11:29.03\00:11:31.99
Right, are absolutely
prohibited. Yes, and they
00:11:32.32\00:11:35.64
are not necessarily right.
They've lost the sensitivity
00:11:35.67\00:11:37.98
towards the real
value of religion in society
00:11:38.01\00:11:40.05
I think and so I do
want our viewers to know
00:11:40.08\00:11:42.54
that certainly if
they read Liberty Magazine
00:11:42.57\00:11:44.83
they will see that we
have sharp differences
00:11:44.86\00:11:46.80
on some issues. But
that does not mean on a
00:11:47.29\00:11:50.45
particular occasion we can't
agree with Americans United,
00:11:50.48\00:11:54.07
but we are not the same as
them, we are not the same as
00:11:54.10\00:11:57.13
ACLU, you know, there are
different elements and now
00:11:57.16\00:12:01.34
and then they'll all
come together allied on a
00:12:01.37\00:12:03.43
particular view point.
There is another thing that we
00:12:03.46\00:12:06.89
were discussing on in
relation to the faith-based
00:12:06.92\00:12:09.34
initiatives and it's
really part of the story,
00:12:09.37\00:12:11.30
legitimately part of
the story. Before he became
00:12:11.33\00:12:13.98
president George
Bush in Texas had worked
00:12:14.01\00:12:17.11
with Chuck Colson
and his prison ministry
00:12:17.14\00:12:20.58
fellowship, tell me a
little bit more about what you
00:12:20.61\00:12:23.87
were discovering that.
They accepted some of that
00:12:23.90\00:12:27.44
government funding to
help the ministry has already
00:12:27.47\00:12:31.37
in place, and it was a good
ministry they're reaching out
00:12:31.40\00:12:33.42
to these convicts,
people in their worst possible
00:12:33.45\00:12:36.84
state, you know, I mean
they are doing a good ministry
00:12:36.87\00:12:38.85
but they accepted
government money for which
00:12:38.88\00:12:40.65
it raised objections
and there was a court case
00:12:40.68\00:12:42.46
that was actually it was
the American United versus the
00:12:42.49\00:12:48.10
fellowship ministry
or they actually were
00:12:48.13\00:12:50.44
pulling into question
how he was using that money
00:12:50.47\00:12:52.53
to reach those people. And
this I said, and I'll say it
00:12:52.56\00:12:55.99
again, I am sure
essentially the overall majority
00:12:56.02\00:13:00.29
of all prisoners who
came under this program were
00:13:00.32\00:13:03.95
probably helped spiritually.
Their living conditions
00:13:04.38\00:13:08.10
would have been better
that would be none of the
00:13:08.13\00:13:11.74
inherent violence and
enlightened bestiality
00:13:11.77\00:13:15.33
that's in prisons I mean
its. Yeah. I don't want to
00:13:15.36\00:13:17.89
find out first hand, but
I know enough from articles
00:13:17.92\00:13:20.44
and talking to people
what on in prison this is not
00:13:20.47\00:13:22.65
good. And so to put a
Christian outreach in that
00:13:22.68\00:13:26.33
context had to be good
for them, but it's a very
00:13:26.36\00:13:29.47
dangerous context
because here's people deprived
00:13:29.50\00:13:32.11
of a lot of the liberties
that you and I have. Yeah,
00:13:32.14\00:13:34.62
so they're already
restricted in their options
00:13:34.65\00:13:38.38
Held prisoner by the
government for crimes
00:13:38.41\00:13:41.04
hopefully that they
did commit and here in this
00:13:41.07\00:13:44.57
environment the
government brings in
00:13:44.60\00:13:46.83
by the hand religion
and says now here are these
00:13:46.86\00:13:49.44
captive individuals,
minister to them, and then
00:13:49.47\00:13:53.12
the prisoner has to listen
and interact on the religious
00:13:53.15\00:13:56.67
point of religion and if
they react to that, who knows
00:13:59.59\00:14:03.18
what would happen. We
will be back after the
00:14:03.21\00:14:04.98
break to talk a little
bit more about faith-based
00:14:05.01\00:14:07.73
initiative for
the prison ministers.
00:14:07.76\00:14:09.40
One hundred years a
long time to do anything
00:14:18.64\00:14:22.38
much less publish a
magazine but this year
00:14:22.68\00:14:25.51
Liberty, the
Seventh-day Adventist voice of
00:14:25.54\00:14:28.18
religious freedom celebrates
100 years of doing what it
00:14:28.21\00:14:32.04
does best, collecting,
analyzing and reporting the
00:14:32.07\00:14:35.69
urban flow of religious
expression around the world.
00:14:35.72\00:14:38.71
Issue after issue,
Liberty has taken on the tough
00:14:39.19\00:14:42.39
assignments, tracking down
threats to religious freedom
00:14:42.42\00:14:45.22
and exposing the work of
the devil in every corner of
00:14:45.25\00:14:48.10
the globe. Governmental
interference, personal
00:14:48.13\00:14:51.09
attacks, corporate
assaults, even religious freedom
00:14:51.12\00:14:54.13
issues sequestered within
the church community itself
00:14:54.16\00:14:56.68
have been clearly and
honestly exposed. Liberty
00:14:56.71\00:15:00.26
exists for one
purpose, to help God's people
00:15:00.29\00:15:03.45
maintain that all important
separation of church and
00:15:03.48\00:15:06.53
state while recognizing
the dangers inherent in such a
00:15:06.56\00:15:10.05
struggle. During the
past century Liberty has
00:15:10.08\00:15:13.09
experienced challenges
of it's own but it remains
00:15:13.12\00:15:16.09
on the job. Thanks to
the inspired leadership of a
00:15:16.12\00:15:19.30
long line of dedicated
Adventist editors, three of
00:15:19.33\00:15:22.14
whom represent almost
half of the publications
00:15:22.17\00:15:24.30
existence and the
foresight of a little woman from
00:15:24.33\00:15:27.37
New England. One
hundred years of struggle,
00:15:27.40\00:15:30.22
one hundred years of
victories, religious freedom
00:15:30.55\00:15:33.61
isn't just about
political machines and cultural
00:15:33.64\00:15:36.55
prejudices. It's about
people fighting for the
00:15:36.58\00:15:40.21
right to serve the God
they love as their hearts
00:15:40.24\00:15:43.28
and the Holy Spirit dictate.
Thanks to the prayers and
00:15:43.31\00:15:46.93
generous support of
Seventh-Day Adventists
00:15:46.96\00:15:49.16
everywhere. Liberty will
continue to accomplish its
00:15:49.19\00:15:52.28
work of providing
timely information, spiritual
00:15:52.31\00:15:55.19
inspiration and
heaven sent encouragement
00:15:55.22\00:15:57.55
to all who long to live
and work in a world bound
00:15:57.58\00:16:02.07
together by the God ordained
bonds of religious freedom.
00:16:02.10\00:16:06.31
Welcome back to the Liberty
Insider, before the break
00:16:16.71\00:16:19.80
which came a little
later than normal because we
00:16:19.83\00:16:21.74
got so involved with it,
we were talking about the
00:16:21.77\00:16:24.11
faith-based initiative
began in its current form
00:16:24.57\00:16:28.47
by President Bush,
building on, remember Ben,
00:16:28.50\00:16:32.25
we said that it was building
on the charitable choice
00:16:32.28\00:16:34.86
of SDA but the faith-based
initiative it appears now
00:16:35.57\00:16:39.13
is going to be continued
with President Barack Obama
00:16:39.16\00:16:41.41
but we were doing a little.
Well, not just continued but
00:16:41.44\00:16:44.41
also increased,
increased, yeah, and changed and
00:16:44.44\00:16:48.43
that's what we want to
talk about, but the side
00:16:48.46\00:16:50.98
discussion that I got
into that is based on what this
00:16:51.01\00:16:53.68
is all about. Is the prison
ministry fellowship program
00:16:53.71\00:16:56.54
of Chuck Colson as
it was operated in Texas
00:16:56.57\00:17:00.52
initially and then
President Bush really gave more
00:17:00.55\00:17:03.06
of an open go in
that. When I think of these
00:17:03.09\00:17:05.64
ministries that were
in place, the reason that
00:17:05.67\00:17:08.15
they wanted to fund
them in the first place
00:17:08.18\00:17:09.85
because they were
having a positive impact on a
00:17:09.88\00:17:12.36
positive outcome
because they're teaching these
00:17:12.39\00:17:14.90
Christian, that we
believe our Christian principles
00:17:14.93\00:17:16.79
also helps in daily
living as far as and how to
00:17:17.19\00:17:20.02
interact with your
fellow man. And the recidivism
00:17:20.05\00:17:23.47
right, prisoners that
have gone through such program
00:17:23.50\00:17:26.32
was demonstrably lower,
I have to say that in their
00:17:26.35\00:17:29.55
defense, even allowing
for the fact that they did
00:17:29.58\00:17:33.59
screen out some of
the more hardcore, violent
00:17:33.62\00:17:35.81
criminals that were not
suitable for such programs,
00:17:35.84\00:17:37.69
but it clearly had an
advantages effect on the
00:17:37.72\00:17:41.41
lives of those men. So
whether they stepped in
00:17:41.44\00:17:43.97
those, the government saw
something that was working
00:17:44.00\00:17:46.19
and wanted to fund it,
which I don't think necessarily
00:17:46.22\00:17:49.28
is a negative thing.
It's what they would do after
00:17:49.31\00:17:52.13
funding it though, okay,
now that we're funding it.
00:17:52.16\00:17:54.15
Now we want to change this
and this and this about it,
00:17:54.60\00:17:56.49
which is the whole
reason that the government was
00:17:56.52\00:17:58.20
paying in the first
place because they're not as
00:17:58.23\00:17:59.88
affective in those
type of social reform. Well,
00:17:59.91\00:18:02.18
it's a lot of religious
liberty things, you have
00:18:02.21\00:18:04.49
to both look at the
affect and here maybe no real
00:18:04.52\00:18:10.18
harm was done as far as it
went but from the beginning
00:18:10.21\00:18:13.49
there was always a
problem, a structural problem
00:18:13.52\00:18:16.18
on the relationship
between Church and State,
00:18:16.21\00:18:18.24
religious
organization and state control.
00:18:18.65\00:18:21.40
And I think I told you
in the discussion part of it
00:18:21.82\00:18:25.65
that the very few
people seem to know about that
00:18:25.68\00:18:27.85
was strange to me,
was that we had prison,
00:18:27.88\00:18:30.43
Christian prison groups
that actually would build a
00:18:30.46\00:18:33.20
prison as their own facility
that owned the lock stock
00:18:33.23\00:18:36.24
and barrel and then
they would contract with the
00:18:36.27\00:18:38.43
government so much for
prisoner. Government would
00:18:38.46\00:18:40.59
deliver prisoners to
them, they would house them
00:18:40.62\00:18:43.93
of course restrict their
freedom and then run daily
00:18:44.42\00:18:50.04
programs on Christian
instruction and lifestyle
00:18:50.07\00:18:54.45
and so on. Well, I do
believe that there is a
00:18:54.48\00:18:56.01
a prison, I am not sure
the State, I believe it's in
00:18:56.04\00:18:58.54
California. It's
actually run by the Adventist,
00:18:58.57\00:19:00.22
that they have a vegetarian
diet in the prison system.
00:19:00.75\00:19:03.98
I don't know if that
still exists but, I would.
00:19:04.01\00:19:06.86
But it had a
positive, but it had a positive.
00:19:06.89\00:19:08.77
Yes, and I am sure
whether it was that one or
00:19:08.80\00:19:12.88
the Chuck Colson ones.
I am not willing to say
00:19:12.91\00:19:16.55
that any single person
had a bad purpose in this.
00:19:16.58\00:19:19.65
Yeah I do think that
the goal was to help people
00:19:19.68\00:19:23.83
in a prison environment
and of course must religions
00:19:23.86\00:19:26.48
even the most
aberrant form as we see through
00:19:26.51\00:19:30.57
Al-Qaeda on a certain
level they think that they're
00:19:30.60\00:19:33.57
doing the good for
somebody. They're doing the will
00:19:33.60\00:19:37.23
of God. It will be
advantages for the society
00:19:37.26\00:19:40.66
or for their people or
whatever. Motives can be
00:19:40.69\00:19:44.85
a very slippery slope.
Someone's motive may be
00:19:44.88\00:19:48.64
good that from my
prospective a good motive
00:19:48.67\00:19:50.85
might be compelling me
to believe or do something
00:19:50.88\00:19:53.53
that I am not comfortable
with, and so this is really
00:19:53.56\00:19:56.59
I think the danger in
the prison environment.
00:19:56.62\00:19:58.83
Captives have lost
their freedom from their own
00:19:58.86\00:20:01.45
actions mostly, but
still they're captive, they're
00:20:01.48\00:20:04.75
restricted in their options
and here and the government
00:20:04.78\00:20:07.47
offices, people with a
certain faith-view are given
00:20:07.50\00:20:10.70
unrestricted access to
them to try to persuade them
00:20:11.19\00:20:14.53
to their religious view
point. To me that's very
00:20:14.56\00:20:17.19
problematic. In
another program I've often
00:20:17.22\00:20:19.92
mentioned this is
roughly analogous to the
00:20:19.95\00:20:22.52
re-education camps
that the communists was so
00:20:22.55\00:20:25.29
want to do, you know, I
grew up thinking this was
00:20:25.32\00:20:27.51
just terrific that
recalcitrant individuals
00:20:27.54\00:20:30.97
were brought in and
just day or dawn or dusk
00:20:31.00\00:20:34.11
residing communist
slogans that indoctrinate
00:20:34.59\00:20:37.60
them. So there was that
element of it and we have
00:20:37.63\00:20:41.21
precious little
evidence that it was perceived
00:20:41.24\00:20:44.16
that way. So, I am not
trying to overstate it, but
00:20:44.19\00:20:47.14
structurally I believe
there was good analogy.
00:20:47.17\00:20:49.57
I guess the caution then
comes to the ministry that
00:20:49.60\00:20:52.25
it is functioning in an
environment like the prison
00:20:52.28\00:20:54.73
ministry, how do you
seek your funding then
00:20:54.76\00:20:57.01
I obviously think that
you need to seek your funding
00:20:57.04\00:20:59.26
from private individuals
and probably be leery of
00:20:59.29\00:21:02.21
applying for grants for
government help and those
00:21:03.34\00:21:05.52
type of things. Yes,
my view on the prisons
00:21:05.55\00:21:07.71
is that they should like
Church group shouldn't be
00:21:07.74\00:21:10.59
actually owning and running
the prison. I think myself,
00:21:10.62\00:21:13.65
and as much as
anything a personal opinion
00:21:13.68\00:21:16.84
and I do believe and
this is very defensible
00:21:16.87\00:21:21.08
in a Church that
issues that we should decry
00:21:21.11\00:21:24.60
taking government money to
advance religious view point
00:21:24.63\00:21:28.06
to prisoners or anyone
else. It's almost difficult
00:21:28.09\00:21:30.30
thought to follow
through that 'cause you do have
00:21:30.33\00:21:32.18
Church run nursing homes,
handicap assisted facilities,
00:21:32.39\00:21:35.90
and they accept people
who are wards of the state and
00:21:36.30\00:21:38.94
under medicare or medicate.
Well, Church run and this
00:21:38.97\00:21:43.38
gets back to the original
argument not for faith-based
00:21:43.41\00:21:47.62
so much but charitable
choice. They clearly have,
00:21:47.65\00:21:51.31
it's been accepted that
there are some things that
00:21:51.34\00:21:53.99
the people of faith can
do that the government will
00:21:54.41\00:21:58.14
co-partner with them
and those faith individuals
00:21:58.17\00:22:01.25
because of their underlying
commitment as a Christian
00:22:01.28\00:22:04.23
to helping the poor
and so on. You can use the
00:22:04.26\00:22:07.29
government money to do
good things but that's not
00:22:07.32\00:22:09.93
quite the same as basically
preaching to them on the
00:22:09.96\00:22:13.72
government dollar and
you've mentioned Seventh-Day
00:22:13.75\00:22:17.00
Adventist program, the
Seventh-day Adventist Church
00:22:17.03\00:22:19.25
in this country and around
the world operates the ADRA
00:22:19.28\00:22:23.13
International Disaster
Relief. By the rules of
00:22:23.64\00:22:27.82
engagement on that
they're taking government moneys
00:22:27.85\00:22:29.86
as well as some private
money but the government
00:22:30.26\00:22:32.25
money has a condition
that they cannot advance their
00:22:32.28\00:22:35.80
faith particulars. And I've
actually had the pleasure of
00:22:35.83\00:22:39.55
working with that.
Right, and they've done a
00:22:39.58\00:22:41.31
wonderful job but
they're not in the business of
00:22:41.34\00:22:43.51
preaching and handing
out literature and so.
00:22:43.54\00:22:45.75
They're literaly
feeding and administering those
00:22:45.78\00:22:48.89
physical needs. So you
know I think most people accept
00:22:48.92\00:22:51.66
that's a good part of
the dynamic and cooperation
00:22:51.69\00:22:54.52
between people of faith
and even faith organizations
00:22:54.55\00:22:57.95
and the government, but
that's not to be confused
00:22:57.98\00:23:01.06
I think with
advancing with government money
00:23:01.09\00:23:03.30
of faith particular,
that can create a certain
00:23:03.33\00:23:06.68
positive identification
as with ADRA. I think it's
00:23:06.71\00:23:10.17
very good in a disaster
area for people to see here
00:23:10.20\00:23:13.41
Seventh-day Adventists
that are ministering to them.
00:23:13.44\00:23:16.39
So it reflects well on
your faith but no means
00:23:16.68\00:23:20.01
is ADRA authorized it
would be improper to be,
00:23:20.04\00:23:23.94
you know, proselytizing
in that environment.
00:23:23.97\00:23:26.74
Well, and see them
actually working in action that
00:23:27.30\00:23:29.69
they literally just
set up the feeding stations
00:23:29.72\00:23:32.00
and they sometimes
work through the channels
00:23:32.03\00:23:33.52
of the government to do
that but what I think if you
00:23:33.55\00:23:36.00
feed someone in need
sometimes you'll draw them
00:23:36.03\00:23:37.85
to a close relationship
with Christ so. So what do you
00:23:37.88\00:23:40.64
think the faith-based
initiative was going based
00:23:40.67\00:23:44.60
on what you've heard and
you've read? Well, I think
00:23:44.63\00:23:47.70
You feel comfortable
about the new initiatives?
00:23:47.73\00:23:50.16
No, yes and no. I
mean I believe that he is
00:23:50.19\00:23:52.90
going to take a lot of
the, Barack Obama is not
00:23:52.93\00:23:55.57
going to, he doesn't
want one particular religion
00:23:55.60\00:23:58.17
endorsed through it
but then you may end up,
00:23:58.20\00:24:00.91
with the backlash of
that being than just outright
00:24:00.94\00:24:04.48
secular is what's
endorsed. And in that itself
00:24:04.51\00:24:08.29
religion if you. And
people may well being fairly
00:24:08.32\00:24:14.74
benign on it, ground
swell of citizenry objective to
00:24:14.77\00:24:18.82
this. A few court cases
we talked about, but it might
00:24:18.85\00:24:22.26
be that the very
inclusiveness of the Barack
00:24:22.29\00:24:25.43
administration may
rattle some people in the
00:24:25.46\00:24:28.64
so-called mainstream.
Because I'm sure that he'll
00:24:28.67\00:24:31.58
do what the Bush
administration did not.
00:24:31.61\00:24:33.37
He will spread it
more evenly through this
00:24:33.40\00:24:35.58
program and even made
statements that you'll see
00:24:35.61\00:24:40.76
mosques and so on
getting more of this money.
00:24:40.79\00:24:42.78
It's never been off
limits for them but in practice
00:24:43.25\00:24:45.81
under the Bush administration
they would not a favored
00:24:45.84\00:24:48.92
subset of religion. Which
maybe inherently dangerous
00:24:51.48\00:24:54.18
too, they maybe
throwing money at something just
00:24:54.21\00:24:56.58
to appear that were
moderate, Oh! I mean
00:24:56.61\00:24:59.11
there's also such a
political gains that skew
00:24:59.14\00:25:01.11
this thing and we
know that's going to be.
00:25:01.14\00:25:04.04
It's almost unavoidable
and on our Church-State
00:25:04.07\00:25:07.50
separation issue. It's often
best not to enter into such
00:25:07.53\00:25:12.58
in entanglement, in
fact, I think Thomas Jefferson
00:25:12.61\00:25:16.54
spoke of the entanglements
that can be created
00:25:16.57\00:25:19.47
between Church and
State. So you have positives
00:25:19.50\00:25:25.53
and negatives at the
same time. I couldn't get you.
00:25:25.56\00:25:27.58
Well, it is, it's
kind a, it's nothing has
00:25:27.61\00:25:31.53
happened yet that, that
has been negative I've not
00:25:31.56\00:25:34.27
seen any type of
negative reaction yet so I guess
00:25:34.30\00:25:37.50
I'm kind of withholding
an opinion until. It's true
00:25:37.53\00:25:39.71
We can't. It's hard to
make a judgment call on
00:25:39.74\00:25:42.76
something you're not.
We can only criticize the
00:25:42.79\00:25:44.51
assumptions that have led
us to where we are on this
00:25:44.54\00:25:47.36
so far and the
possible directions this can go
00:25:47.39\00:25:52.09
and one thing I'll say at
the end, and I've said this
00:25:52.12\00:25:56.34
to some of their own
officials, early on we spoke
00:25:56.37\00:25:59.26
to an official from
the Justice Department.
00:25:59.29\00:26:01.39
The government almost
without meaning too can
00:26:01.43\00:26:04.12
easily establish a
list of acceptable and
00:26:04.15\00:26:07.12
unacceptable
religions which is pretty much
00:26:07.15\00:26:09.70
what the French have
done, where they have
00:26:09.73\00:26:11.49
religions that are
de-registered and others
00:26:13.04\00:26:15.01
that have the smile of
the State. Well, you know that
00:26:15.04\00:26:19.12
James, says that pure
and undefined religion
00:26:19.15\00:26:21.20
before is to visit the
widows and the fatherless
00:26:21.23\00:26:23.86
and their affliction
and when you see groups like
00:26:23.89\00:26:26.13
ADRA that are meeting
those needs and feeding
00:26:26.16\00:26:28.78
and helping hurting
people, that I believe is
00:26:28.81\00:26:31.29
our true duty as
Christian to help those,
00:26:31.32\00:26:33.14
the danger comes in of
course is how you fund it.
00:26:33.80\00:26:36.18
I believe that we as
Christian ought to rely
00:26:36.62\00:26:39.21
on God for our funding
and beware wary of forming the
00:26:39.24\00:26:42.62
government and
asking them for money.
00:26:42.65\00:26:44.57
So I, just a caution.
Faith-based initiatives
00:26:44.96\00:26:50.34
that's a rather
loaded, very significant term.
00:26:50.88\00:26:53.53
I can look at the
ministry of Jesus Christ,
00:26:53.93\00:26:56.32
the son of God and I
can say that, that was
00:26:56.35\00:26:58.69
ultimately a
faith-based initiative. Faith in
00:26:58.72\00:27:02.38
his father God and
faith in the goal of redeeming
00:27:02.41\00:27:06.74
mankind, and of course as
a Christian I believe that
00:27:06.77\00:27:09.85
I am involved in a
faith-based initiative
00:27:09.88\00:27:12.14
reaching toward
God and reaching out to
00:27:12.90\00:27:15.85
other people to emulate
Jesus and elaborate them
00:27:15.88\00:27:19.36
before them. But when
we talk about faith-based
00:27:19.39\00:27:21.69
initiatives today, we are
talking specifically about
00:27:21.72\00:27:24.70
a government program
that was designed and
00:27:24.73\00:27:28.95
is somewhat
functioned as a combination of
00:27:29.75\00:27:33.01
state prerogatives,
state money and Church action.
00:27:33.04\00:27:37.55
One would hope that
only good things happen from
00:27:38.83\00:27:40.83
this. One would hope that
the entanglements implicit
00:27:40.86\00:27:44.22
in this do not
overwhelm the good intention.
00:27:44.25\00:27:46.95
One would hope the
Churches are able to
00:27:47.22\00:27:50.22
maintain the doctrinal
integrity. One would hope
00:27:50.25\00:27:52.76
that as a taxpayer. I am
not seeing my money spend
00:27:53.22\00:27:57.40
to promote a
faith-view that is out of sync
00:27:57.43\00:28:00.20
with what I would chose
in emulating Jesus Christ.
00:28:00.23\00:28:03.33
This is Lincoln
Steed for Liberty Insider.
00:28:05.27\00:28:08.56