Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the program that
brings you the very latest
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up to date news, information and
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discussion on
religious liberty topics.
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My name is Lincoln
Steed, Editor of Liberty
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Magazine and with me
today is a very special
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guest Ben. This
is your first time on
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the program Ben?
Normally I tend to be
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behind the cameras.
Yes. So I work here at 3ABN
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and I work on
this program and so.
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And your last
name is Ben Burkhamer,
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Burkhamer yeah. I didn't
want to miss pronounce it.
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I know you very well as
Ben and we set ourselves
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up for this because very
often in the process we've
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had the program from
behind the camera you've
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in the breaks you
have added some information
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that I found very
illuminating and I enjoy
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discussing these topics
with you and I think our
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viewers will appreciate
some of the insights that
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you bring to this
topic. Now what I want to talk
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about first is something
that I think is still fresh
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on most people's
minds, the inauguration of
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President Barack
Obama. Yes, not far gone,
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of course there's many
policies and initiatives
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that we are just
seeing unfolding, but even
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before his inauguration
there was a big controversy
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at least in theory
right. Oh which one.
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That on church date
issues. Yes, well with the
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background of the
name Barack Obama I guess.
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That's true. A lot of
people were worrying that.
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We can have a lot
of discussion about you
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know the charge that
I don't think is true.
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The agree of
Muslim influence on his
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upbringing and so on. I
tend to think that gives
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him a richness, he
understands different
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faith perspectives. I
do believe he was also
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raised up in a
Christian background and he had
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a Muslim name, but
that didn't make him.
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And of course his
personal faith is between
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him and God we can't
critic him or criticizing
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him overly for whatever
faith perspective he chooses.
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We hope that he's a
person of faith. Yeah.
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And my Bible
tells me that if someone
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exercising faith and
integrity is a better ruler
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for that, so we can,
now it goes back our U.S.
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law is kind of based on a
Judeo-Christian, not the law.
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Well but our
culture is predicated on the
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assumption that most
people certainly at the
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time of the founding,
they were from a protestant
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religious base not
even Catholic. Right.
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The essential norms
that we've accepted in our
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ruling class. Yes. Now
what I am referring to is
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the debate that got
quite hot and heavy for a while
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that he had chosen the
Reverend Rick Warren to
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take the inauguration.
And I think Rick Warren
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was an instrumental
and proposition eight was
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at the proposition
that they, that's one thing,
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the attempt to get
off the gay marriage.
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So, the gay lobby were
not happy with that and
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you know I say freely
my views as a Christian and
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my reading of the Bible
puts me in sympathy with
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Rick Warren. With
Rick Warren. Not with his
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methods and that's
for another program.
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Liberty Magazine
is featured the gay
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marriage and the
whole gay rights issue.
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Well he as a
preacher comes out as he is
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speaking about
saying how is it wrong for a
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Christian to say sin is
sin. Right and from the pulpit
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he has every right
affecting an obligation to
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present the moral
imperatives of the Bible.
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That you know separation
of church and state or
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lack off comes into
focus when someone like this is
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lined up to take a
prayer at a public occasion
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which we have a
great tradition in the
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United States. Its
now mandated in the
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constitution and there
is the rope because even
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people as far back
as James Madison were
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troubled about these
public prayers at times of,
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when the government was
presenting to the public.
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Yes. So what did you
think of when you heard
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the Rick Warren
being asked to pray?
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I personally was
pleased that it seemed like he
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was, Barack was reaching
out to the Christians who
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may have felt a little
bit let down during the
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election that they
didn't have a more conservative
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person that was elected,
so may be that his way of
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breaching the gap.
Yeah that was my reading
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on it too and you said
conservative and 'cause
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conservatives and liberal
are often relative terms,
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defined differently from
where you are personally.
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I think it's worth
mentioning and I am sure
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you would agree with
me that the conservative
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religious faction that we
have seen for the last 8 to
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20 years is not
necessarily Rick Warren's group.
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Some of those
leaders like Reverend Jerry
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Falwell is, very political,
is very political, far more
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rigid in certain sense
and Rick Warren in some
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ways is the new face
of conservatism isn't it.
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But he had would still
qualify I think for a more
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literal conservative
biblical view point.
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If you listen to his
pray and inauguration too,
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I don't think he
pushed out a political agenda
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during his prayer.
It seemed like some of
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other prayers I
heard was very politically.
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We spoke about some of
those, but say you felt
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that his prayer after
all the hype, the argument,
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the gay love, he came
out strongly opposed to the
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fact that he would
even be chosen, this was an
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insult that they were
and as I remember Newdow,
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the guy that challenged
the pledge of allegiance
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even brought in a legal
challenge to Rick Warren
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praying you remember
that? I don't think I'm familiar
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with that. Yeah he tried
to head it off legally, but of
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course nothing came of
that and the prayer I felt
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was a little anti climax.
It was very measured, well
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contained. The only
thing that sort of surprised me
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was right at the beginning
and I've got the prayer in
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front of me. In the
second paragraph he says the
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scripture tells us
Hear, Israel The Lord our God,
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the Lord is one. Its
not the called the Mishnah,
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yeah, from the Old
Testament, that's the
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proclamation of
God. Yeah, so that was,
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you think that was
maybe an attempt to bridge the
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gap between the Jewish
community. Then he says
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and you are the
compassionate and
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merciful one. Which is
a Muslim. That's straight
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from the Quran. And
that's not wrong, no,
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but I think that shows a
good start and a bad start.
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He's being inclusive
and he yet inclusivity in a
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public way when your
tied up with the policy
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maker and a ruler
can easily lead to a
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syncretistic amalgamation
of all faiths and yet no
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one is distinctive. So
it showed me the danger
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of where these public
prayers go even if it didn't
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offend in itself.
Which is a basic document of
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humanism, isn't it
the. Well, it can be, we all
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have an element of
truth. Right yeah, well yes,
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it headed that way and
overall it was a good pray
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wasn't it, he didn't say
anything really offensive
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and at the end. He then
concluded by referring to
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the Jesus that changed
his life which I felt was
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rather interesting in a
George Bush style manner.
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When I believe that he
was under a little bit of
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controversy that too, I
think they wanted him to
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use the name of Jesus.
No, it was later being part
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of the argument in
advance that he would be
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specifically pushing
a certain devotee or a.
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So its kind with bated
breath everyone waited is
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he gonna say Jesus. I
wasn't offended by that.
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Oh no, no obviously
not. But it is worth
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remembering that where
does that leave a atheist
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or a secularist in our society.
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But, he personalized
it, he said it's the one who
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changed my life.
Right, good point. Yeah.
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And he has every right
as the President does to
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speak publicly at his own
faith, but what I felt was
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interesting, he says
in the name of the one who
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changed my life.
Yeshua, Jewish name for Jesus.
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Isa, Islamic name
for Jesus and the Quran
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doesn't present Jesus
the same way, then Jesus
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anglicized version
and then Jesus Hispanic
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pronunciation.
Maybe a breach and
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maybe of course with
the Hispanic, a lot of
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predominately Catholic
maybe that was a reach at
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the Catholic vs the
Protestant. So you have to
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give it to him, this
was inclusive language.
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It wasn't wrong, but
the affect was he was like
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dancing on coals, to
get across his faith and yet
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flecking here and there
at the hot spots or it's
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mixing of metaphor, but
to extract from different
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people's religious
view point, something that
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would gratify them.
Well I think at the basis,
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the scripture is all
inclusive like that anyone
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can come to Christ. So
him using language that
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maybe reached them
at a personal level.
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That's good. I
think that's a negative.
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Now, I really
wouldn't criticize this prayer
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too much. It was interesting
given that they were so
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much advanced criticism
and I think he negotiated
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it fairly well. What was
interesting to me was not
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just this pray, but
other prays, both on that day
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and clustered around
the sequence of events for
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the inauguration. Well
then you had into course
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to tie in that he is
including since the Rick
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Warren that to have
the counterpart to Rick
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Warren was the
Bishop Gene Robinson. Yes.
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Who from, there was a
controversy surrounding
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him too at the
Episcopal Church. The Episcopal
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Church, and I believe
that there has been almost
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rumors of separation
from, well now the rumor
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is the Episcopal Church
split several ways already
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and large elements of
the American and British,
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'cause it's not called
the Episcopal Church in
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England, but here at
the Episcopal Church has
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split away and actually
organizationally tied up
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with elements in
Africa that are more
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conservative, say
its fragmenting them big
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time all over the issue
of whether or not to ordain
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openly gay leaders
like Bishop Robinson.
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You know he's made this
an issue of his ministry.
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Its not just that he
happens to be gay. Yeah.
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He made a
political agenda out of it.
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And he was asked to
pray at the ceremony that was
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held a couple of
days before the Lincoln
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Memorial that was
telecast live. I saw a little
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bit of it myself and
have you look at his prayer.
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Yeah. I think you got
it here. Yeah, in front of
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me, well some of the
quotes he has a O God of
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our many understandings.
That troubles me yet,
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well with which if
you compare it to Rick
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Warren's prayer he did
use those other terms for
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Jesus, Esa, Yeshua,
but his were just more of a
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generic
statement, our God of many
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understanding.
And it reminded me of
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comparative religions
and we need to have respect
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for other faiths, so
that's very much tied up to
00:11:01.84\00:11:04.07
religious liberty. We
don't have tolerance on this
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program I think
before I've mentioned the
00:11:07.90\00:11:09.28
tolerance is really just
a dislike held in abeyance
00:11:09.31\00:11:12.87
you will allow it for a
while, but your tolerance
00:11:13.23\00:11:16.01
can easily turn
into dismissal or
00:11:16.04\00:11:17.84
denial of that faith.
Well you have a respect,
00:11:17.87\00:11:20.16
deeply respect
everyone's right to follow their
00:11:20.75\00:11:23.42
faiths and
imperatives. No matter what they
00:11:23.45\00:11:25.56
end up believing.
Well then that comes
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from our own
personal, how we interpret to
00:11:27.14\00:11:30.06
understand scriptures,
but he goes on, he says bless
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us from freedom
from mere tolerance which
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and he goes on to say
replacing it with genuine
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respect and warm and
braise for our differences
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which on the face
sounds. It sounds good that you
00:11:41.68\00:11:44.46
know I do wanna include
and as a person I do want
00:11:44.49\00:11:47.29
to respect some as
an another human being,
00:11:47.32\00:11:48.65
but it doesn't mean I
have to embrace their ideology.
00:11:48.92\00:11:50.84
Right. Well what was
his ideology was there?
00:11:51.57\00:11:54.05
You've got it, but I
will read this paragraph,
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it says bless us with
discomfort at the easy
00:11:58.55\00:12:01.41
simplistic answers.
We preferred to hear from
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our politicians instead of
the truth, well before that
00:12:05.54\00:12:08.06
he says bless us with anger at
00:12:08.09\00:12:10.03
discrimination, that's
fine. Yeah. We shouldn't
00:12:10.06\00:12:11.91
discriminate, but now
he gets specific and home
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and aboard against
refugees and immigrants,
00:12:14.54\00:12:16.64
women, people of
color, gay, Lesbian, bisexual
00:12:16.67\00:12:20.69
and transgender people.
That's a whole gamete of
00:12:20.72\00:12:24.59
sexuality and being
that is divisive within the
00:12:24.62\00:12:29.62
religious community
and the secular community.
00:12:29.65\00:12:31.88
Right, it was obviously
he was trying to pushing his
00:12:32.42\00:12:34.53
personal agenda. This
wasn't so much a prayer
00:12:34.56\00:12:36.75
to an almighty God, as
it was a statement to the
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public about his
political ideology. Exactly.
00:12:39.56\00:12:41.76
And that's the danger.
He has a right to hold those
00:12:42.08\00:12:44.38
views. You know whom
am I to deny him that
00:12:44.41\00:12:46.56
right to hold it.
I am obligated by my
00:12:46.59\00:12:50.02
interpretation of the
Bible to point out plainly that
00:12:50.40\00:12:54.27
some of these things
might be unacceptable
00:12:55.85\00:12:57.82
Biblically. We need to
talk further about this,
00:12:57.85\00:13:00.89
so we will be back after
the break to continue our
00:13:00.92\00:13:03.36
discussion of some of these
00:13:03.39\00:13:04.52
prayers at the inauguration.
00:13:04.55\00:13:06.46
One hundred years a
long time to do anything much
00:13:16.51\00:13:20.64
less publish a
magazine but this year Liberty,
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Welcome back to the
Liberty Insider, this is
00:15:14.73\00:15:17.29
Lincoln Steed, Editor
of Liberty Magazine again
00:15:17.32\00:15:19.43
and before the break
with Ben, I was discussing the
00:15:19.46\00:15:23.73
different prayers
during the inauguration of our
00:15:23.76\00:15:27.03
President Barack Obama,
that was Rick Warren that
00:15:27.06\00:15:30.31
was the inauguration
prayer that created so
00:15:30.34\00:15:32.87
much advance
controversy, but really it was
00:15:32.90\00:15:34.89
anticlimactic, anticlimactic
and not a bad prayer and
00:15:35.08\00:15:38.26
then you and I
were talking about the
00:15:38.29\00:15:40.73
Reverend Bishop wasn't
it, Gene Robinson of the
00:15:40.76\00:15:44.45
Episcopal Church. Yes,
more than just a religious
00:15:44.48\00:15:48.28
figure he's strongly
identified with the whole
00:15:48.31\00:15:50.36
gay lifestyle and advocacy
and so on and in his pray
00:15:50.39\00:15:52.80
he pushed that openly.
Yeah, it was an obviously
00:15:52.83\00:15:56.19
attempt to bring it into
the church a little bit that way
00:15:56.22\00:15:59.81
about politics and
church. And which I found
00:15:59.84\00:16:01.25
struggling
because from two angles.
00:16:01.28\00:16:02.86
Here in fact I felt
embarrassed for the new
00:16:03.28\00:16:07.06
administration they had
so openly now identified
00:16:07.09\00:16:10.47
themselves with this
view that's I was gonna say
00:16:10.50\00:16:14.89
moral view, but
it's immoral for certain
00:16:14.92\00:16:16.59
people an activist
viewpoint, so there is an
00:16:16.62\00:16:20.48
identification created,
so they're not easily saying
00:16:20.51\00:16:22.97
it's impartial and then
the church really had been
00:16:23.00\00:16:27.39
dragged into something
where a doctrinal dispute
00:16:27.42\00:16:29.85
is aired and again
identified with the state,
00:16:30.60\00:16:33.39
very problematic to
me. Well you have people
00:16:33.42\00:16:36.46
discuss that the government
almost wants to push his
00:16:36.49\00:16:39.35
human secularism as
the term I have heard.
00:16:39.38\00:16:40.93
Banned about that, it's
almost the separation of
00:16:41.72\00:16:44.69
church and state which
we do obviously embrace,
00:16:44.72\00:16:47.27
we don't want the government
to sponsor any type of
00:16:47.30\00:16:49.33
state religion, but at
the same token to out, openly
00:16:49.36\00:16:53.16
identify with the human
secularism that is just as
00:16:53.19\00:16:56.39
wrong. Its fraud and
its safer for the government
00:16:56.42\00:16:58.89
really to keep out of
the religion business. Yes.
00:16:58.92\00:17:00.92
But here it appeared to
be embracing an aberrant
00:17:00.95\00:17:05.17
form of religion at
least for many people.
00:17:05.20\00:17:06.87
Its certainly not a biblical,
traditionally biblically
00:17:06.90\00:17:11.08
understood interpretation
nor is it structurally up
00:17:11.11\00:17:13.82
building, because
here is the church that's
00:17:13.85\00:17:15.96
fragmenting
over this very issue.
00:17:15.99\00:17:17.53
Well which comes to
the issue you know we have,
00:17:18.17\00:17:20.39
we discussed speaking
against her disbelieving
00:17:20.42\00:17:23.55
in certain lifestyles and
saying that we don't agree
00:17:23.58\00:17:26.06
with that lifestyle.
Where out and out it'd be wrong
00:17:26.09\00:17:30.33
to say something
against it like they have in
00:17:30.36\00:17:32.16
Canada now that's its
you have to be careful. Yes.
00:17:32.79\00:17:36.41
In certain things that
you say on long time issues.
00:17:36.44\00:17:39.19
I think we're
moving toward that in this
00:17:39.22\00:17:41.05
country and prayers
like that almost tend
00:17:41.08\00:17:44.75
to give that credibility.
Obviously somebody who
00:17:44.78\00:17:47.16
is tied up to advancing
the course of gay rights
00:17:47.19\00:17:52.25
might feel gratified
that they would restrict some
00:17:52.28\00:17:54.96
of the opinions that they
don't like, but I think all
00:17:54.99\00:17:57.32
of us are the worse of
the society if free exchange
00:17:57.35\00:18:01.99
or not even exchange,
just freely the right to freely
00:18:02.02\00:18:05.76
air an opinion is restricted
because today it may be
00:18:05.79\00:18:09.77
the opinion that I
don't like on a certain issue.
00:18:09.80\00:18:11.93
And it may change the
backlash that maybe more
00:18:12.11\00:18:14.25
of a conservative
backlash where they
00:18:14.28\00:18:16.83
would actually censor
that person who thinks
00:18:16.86\00:18:19.52
they're gaining
freedom through it and the
00:18:19.55\00:18:21.63
backlashes that now it's
wrong or it be against the
00:18:21.66\00:18:25.27
law to have that type
of lifestyle. And religious
00:18:25.30\00:18:27.38
liberty would be
we are just as wrong.
00:18:27.41\00:18:28.99
Right religiously, but
he like free speech has a
00:18:29.20\00:18:31.67
down side that much
people find about that so
00:18:31.70\00:18:33.78
many times that you
have to have a necessity.
00:18:33.81\00:18:36.51
Religion that's
aberrant to some people.
00:18:36.68\00:18:38.38
With a free speech you
have things that trouble
00:18:38.75\00:18:40.86
me mightily, but it's my
price to pay for my right
00:18:40.89\00:18:44.20
to say what I want.
Great. And the tendency around
00:18:44.23\00:18:48.56
the world I think not
just in United States is to
00:18:48.59\00:18:50.59
restrict this. Even
religious groups around
00:18:50.62\00:18:53.27
the world are sitting
down and establishing ground
00:18:53.30\00:18:56.80
rules for Proselytization
or conservations and inter
00:18:56.83\00:19:00.14
religious dialogue and
it sounds good on the face
00:19:00.17\00:19:04.19
of it, this is a
civilized agreement, but the net
00:19:04.22\00:19:07.19
effect is to restrict
and inhibit the true free
00:19:07.22\00:19:10.68
exchange of ideas.
Yes, well now we have
00:19:10.71\00:19:13.70
the next prayer.
Yeah another prayer.
00:19:13.73\00:19:16.14
What was your
take on the Reverend
00:19:16.70\00:19:17.88
Larry Civil Rights
Activist going back to the
00:19:18.06\00:19:22.04
Martin Luther King days.
As I first, grand old man
00:19:22.07\00:19:25.11
of legitimate movement.
Well as I first listened to
00:19:26.05\00:19:28.23
the prayer when it was
eloquent, he is talking
00:19:28.26\00:19:30.18
about the things that
we're all seeking, the
00:19:30.21\00:19:33.80
peace that where the
lion can lay down beside the
00:19:33.83\00:19:36.23
lamb and I mean it
was a very eloquent poetic
00:19:36.26\00:19:39.36
sounding prayer until you
get to the very, very, very
00:19:39.39\00:19:42.72
end of the prayer it
came across as he was pushing
00:19:42.75\00:19:45.71
his political agenda at
the end. Yeah. And before
00:19:45.74\00:19:48.94
the break we were
discussing this and I've
00:19:48.97\00:19:52.44
told many people that
I found this prayer very
00:19:52.47\00:19:55.63
personally satisfying
except for the end was
00:19:55.66\00:19:58.17
grand exalted
language, you know God of our
00:19:58.20\00:20:01.68
weary years, God of our
silent tears, thou who has
00:20:02.29\00:20:05.23
brought us thus far
along the way. I mean this is
00:20:05.26\00:20:07.67
almost a biblical
grandeur that he was giving out.
00:20:07.70\00:20:11.78
Well he had painted a
pretty verbal picture too
00:20:11.87\00:20:13.71
with his words, it
was. Yes. And at the end he
00:20:13.74\00:20:17.42
just sort like reverted to
a pettiness that was like he
00:20:17.45\00:20:21.92
has got a chip on his
shoulder about what had
00:20:21.95\00:20:23.54
happened and that had
good reasons for that but,
00:20:23.57\00:20:25.44
I wish he hadn't prayed
the. Well the last part what
00:20:25.65\00:20:28.00
was the last section.
Lord in memory of all the
00:20:28.03\00:20:31.22
Saints from those their
labors rest and a joy of a
00:20:31.25\00:20:34.02
new beginning. We ask
you to work for us this
00:20:34.05\00:20:36.00
day, when black will
not be asked to get back,
00:20:36.03\00:20:38.71
when brown can stick
around, when yellow will
00:20:39.27\00:20:41.60
be mellow, when a red
man can get a head man
00:20:41.63\00:20:44.44
and when white will
embrace what is right.
00:20:45.14\00:20:47.16
Nothing, well those are
all reasonable statements,
00:20:47.60\00:20:49.74
but they are in
a flipping context,
00:20:49.77\00:20:52.83
there was laughter.
Yeah. When he prayed
00:20:52.86\00:20:54.88
that, which of course
is very problematic to any
00:20:54.91\00:20:57.29
pray when you're
trying to create a sense of
00:20:57.32\00:20:59.33
reverence whether
it's to the God of the Old
00:20:59.36\00:21:01.43
Testament or to New
Testament, easy access
00:21:01.46\00:21:07.96
to the God head over
the you know it's Islam or
00:21:07.99\00:21:11.05
what ever. No religious
tradition I think flourishes
00:21:11.08\00:21:14.09
where you have
liberty and let's say majesty
00:21:14.12\00:21:16.61
toward the
divine. My own personal
00:21:16.64\00:21:19.67
interpretation of that
was that here we have this
00:21:19.70\00:21:22.26
presidency that was
controversial, but you had
00:21:22.29\00:21:25.21
an overwhelming vote of
people, 67 percent of the
00:21:25.24\00:21:29.22
populous that voted him
to us its almost like there
00:21:29.25\00:21:31.32
has been a kind of a
healing, a bomb to the
00:21:31.35\00:21:34.80
whole racial issues,
but then when you bring
00:21:34.83\00:21:37.03
those issues back into it almost
00:21:37.06\00:21:38.78
reopens those wounds.
Yes I don't think anything
00:21:38.81\00:21:40.60
profitable came from
it, but to give the reverend
00:21:40.63\00:21:42.61
his dues, overall it
was a very richly organized
00:21:42.64\00:21:47.84
prayer and its
attitude toward the divine was
00:21:47.87\00:21:50.67
good until that
point. Yes. There was another
00:21:50.70\00:21:53.68
prayer that interest me
because I am the Seventh
00:21:53.71\00:21:55.81
Day Adventist. You're
a Seventh Day Baptist.
00:21:55.84\00:21:57.94
Aren't you Ben. Yes.
That's an interesting
00:21:57.97\00:21:59.96
background with the
certain parallel history
00:21:59.99\00:22:02.93
on some levels to Seventh
Day Adventist, but as the
00:22:02.96\00:22:06.18
Seventh Day Adventist,
I am very happy that Barry
00:22:06.21\00:22:08.76
Black is the Chaplain
of the U.S. Senate and I am
00:22:08.79\00:22:12.34
as well I think. Well I
think, had he worked here
00:22:12.37\00:22:14.62
too, interested in, you
had him work here too, I feel
00:22:14.65\00:22:16.97
like he's part of the
family, sure, and he took
00:22:17.00\00:22:20.80
the prayer at a
luncheon that immediately
00:22:20.83\00:22:22.79
followed the actual
inauguration and but can't
00:22:22.82\00:22:27.23
really find a transcript
of his prayer, there are some
00:22:27.26\00:22:30.27
quotes from it and
what we have seen was very
00:22:30.30\00:22:33.03
well put forward and
it was consistent with his
00:22:33.06\00:22:35.74
statements before the
event where he pointed
00:22:35.77\00:22:37.84
out that its, when he
prays even publicly it has to be
00:22:37.87\00:22:42.21
his deeply felt
personal expression to God and
00:22:42.24\00:22:46.09
other people sort of
listening in on it yes,
00:22:46.12\00:22:48.24
and I like that because
there is always a danger
00:22:48.27\00:22:50.81
of any public
preference in church or at some
00:22:50.84\00:22:53.29
social gathering or a
political event, but people
00:22:53.32\00:22:55.70
sort of talked to the
other people and insult God by
00:22:55.73\00:22:58.98
you know what, putting
him on the back burner,
00:22:59.01\00:23:01.29
using his name but really
it's preaching and I think
00:23:01.32\00:23:05.65
Barry Black
fulfilled his duties very well.
00:23:05.68\00:23:08.25
He is an eloquent
speaker. I mean we have
00:23:08.82\00:23:10.56
heard him give
messages that we have broadcast
00:23:11.12\00:23:14.02
here so he is a
very eloquent speaker and
00:23:14.05\00:23:16.61
I know that he is
already administered to the new
00:23:16.64\00:23:19.18
President when he was
Senator. He had lot of
00:23:19.21\00:23:22.12
contact with him
because Barry runs regular
00:23:22.15\00:23:24.94
religious sessions for
the Senators there in the U.S.
00:23:24.97\00:23:27.90
Senate. But I bring him
up not just to just I have
00:23:27.93\00:23:32.08
gratified that was,
but what he did with his
00:23:32.11\00:23:33.79
prayer, but he is right
in the center of an argument
00:23:33.82\00:23:37.50
that's been going on
from the beginning that we see
00:23:37.53\00:23:40.84
what these public prayers
at the inauguration should
00:23:40.87\00:23:43.73
the government really
be in the religion business
00:23:43.76\00:23:47.18
which essentially is
by actually having in the
00:23:47.21\00:23:50.56
Senate and in the House
of Chaplain. And what do
00:23:50.59\00:23:54.95
you know about James
Madison's statements on
00:23:54.98\00:23:57.36
that. I am sure
you are aware of them.
00:23:57.39\00:23:58.87
Well, I can't give you
any quote. Well I have the
00:23:58.90\00:24:02.18
quotes, but the quote,
but I know that he was out
00:24:02.21\00:24:04.94
right against that.
Yeah. Well, now, when he was
00:24:04.97\00:24:07.31
president. He was
happy to have a Chaplain
00:24:07.34\00:24:09.69
minister to him. But
he made some interesting
00:24:10.00\00:24:12.49
statements and one of
them or both of them the
00:24:12.52\00:24:14.83
ones that I have from
his detached memorandum
00:24:14.86\00:24:17.50
which is wrote in lighting
years and I was a little
00:24:17.53\00:24:20.12
disconcerted going to a
website of a group called
00:24:20.15\00:24:23.91
the World builders.
That are conservative,
00:24:23.94\00:24:26.87
religious trying to think
at a character, they're not a
00:24:29.36\00:24:32.12
church, they're
not a fraction, but an
00:24:32.15\00:24:34.23
organization to put
forward a certain view
00:24:34.26\00:24:37.79
of church and state and
they were trying to claim
00:24:37.82\00:24:39.80
the detach memorandum
of really not all that they
00:24:41.28\00:24:44.72
appear to be and
that's I think irresponsible.
00:24:44.75\00:24:47.73
There is no question
of legitimacy on these
00:24:48.16\00:24:51.06
statements of James
Madison and he says this,
00:24:51.09\00:24:54.50
he says if religion
consist in voluntary acts of
00:24:54.53\00:24:57.71
individuals singly or
voluntarily associated and
00:24:57.74\00:25:01.98
if would be proper
that public functionaries as
00:25:02.01\00:25:04.38
well as their constituents
should discharge their
00:25:04.41\00:25:07.24
religious duties. So he
likes religion its proper
00:25:07.27\00:25:10.89
let them like their
constituents do so at their
00:25:11.31\00:25:14.41
own expense wrote
Madison. How small an
00:25:14.44\00:25:17.14
contribution from
each member of congress
00:25:17.17\00:25:18.89
would suffice for the
purpose How just would
00:25:18.92\00:25:20.78
it be in its principle,
How noble in its exemplary
00:25:20.81\00:25:23.49
sacrifice to the genius
of the Constitution; and the
00:25:23.52\00:25:26.15
divine right of conscience
Why should the expense
00:25:26.18\00:25:29.04
of a religious
worship for the Legislature,
00:25:29.07\00:25:31.38
be paid by the
public. When that's why I was
00:25:31.81\00:25:34.97
referring to that he
was against was the state
00:25:35.00\00:25:37.71
sponsoring or the funding
to state religions and he
00:25:37.74\00:25:40.33
says this, Is the
appointment of Chaplains
00:25:40.36\00:25:42.05
to the two Houses of
Congress consistent with
00:25:42.08\00:25:43.96
the Constitution, and
with the pure principle of
00:25:43.99\00:25:46.13
religious freedom. He
says the strictness the
00:25:46.16\00:25:51.32
answer on both points
must be in the negative.
00:25:51.35\00:25:53.06
The Constitution of
the U.S. forbids everything
00:25:53.32\00:25:55.84
like an establishment
of a national religion.
00:25:55.87\00:25:58.22
On a personal level
I know that when our
00:25:59.24\00:26:01.39
government convenes
to pass these type laws.
00:26:01.42\00:26:03.75
It is as a Christian
somewhat confiding you
00:26:04.07\00:26:06.26
know that they have some
that at least praise over it.
00:26:06.29\00:26:09.00
So it's referring to
an almighty God that they
00:26:09.03\00:26:12.36
at least are recognizing
there is something greater
00:26:13.04\00:26:14.77
than the government
themselves. Yeah and
00:26:14.80\00:26:16.98
that's fine you and
I have no problem and
00:26:17.01\00:26:19.80
Christians have no
problem to hear echoes
00:26:19.83\00:26:21.91
of what the Supreme
Court is called Ceremonialism
00:26:22.36\00:26:25.62
which basically religion
removed of its real power
00:26:25.65\00:26:29.89
and that's the
problem when the government
00:26:29.92\00:26:31.94
gets a hold religion, it
often puts it to the lowest
00:26:31.97\00:26:34.13
common denominator.
We need faith, we need
00:26:34.16\00:26:36.55
officials of faith, we
need the country that he is in
00:26:37.24\00:26:40.82
its practice to principles
of faith, but we don't
00:26:40.85\00:26:42.88
want a structure
that demands a certain
00:26:42.91\00:26:44.76
religious
observance of religions.
00:26:44.79\00:26:46.79
We as Christians here
in America have a unique
00:26:49.28\00:26:52.05
gift that we have
been given, the ability to
00:26:53.09\00:26:55.85
publicly show our
faith, the framers of our
00:26:55.88\00:26:58.60
constitution have
established the freedom
00:26:58.63\00:27:01.45
of religion to where we
can show our faith in one
00:27:01.48\00:27:04.10
form that we show it
is in public prayers.
00:27:04.13\00:27:06.71
Are we seeing in
the inauguration of the
00:27:07.10\00:27:09.69
Presidents of the
different people get up and pray
00:27:09.72\00:27:11.90
and one thing that I
noticed in watching the
00:27:12.48\00:27:14.92
inauguration was some of
the prayers were beautiful
00:27:14.95\00:27:18.07
and eloquent. They
have expressed a thanks to a
00:27:18.10\00:27:20.57
creator God for giving
us certain rights and in
00:27:20.60\00:27:24.85
another prayers we
did here cases where were
00:27:24.88\00:27:28.00
they were trying to push
may be a political agenda
00:27:28.03\00:27:29.95
more than ever
speaking to the creator God and
00:27:29.98\00:27:33.38
giving him due reference.
We just wanna be careful
00:27:34.02\00:27:36.87
that we don't use prayer
public prayers as a means
00:27:36.90\00:27:41.20
to push our own public
agendas that we don't we
00:27:41.23\00:27:45.11
realize we are
speaking to a personal God who
00:27:45.14\00:27:46.90
wants to develop a
relationship with us and
00:27:46.93\00:27:48.67
we wanna develop a
relationship with him and
00:27:48.70\00:27:51.84
to demonstrate it in
public is a very positive thing
00:27:51.87\00:27:55.45
that we're able to
here in the United States of
00:27:55.48\00:27:56.94
America and we wanna
hold on and hold there
00:27:56.97\00:27:59.55
those freedoms
that we have here.
00:27:59.89\00:28:01.45
For Liberty
Insider I am Ben Burkhamer.
00:28:04.86\00:28:06.98