Welcome to Liberty Insider.
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This is the program that brings
you up to date information
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and views on
religious liberty issues.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty magazine,
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and my guest again on
this program is Kevin James.
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Kevin, just explain what you do.
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Well, I'm the new associate
director for Public Affairs and
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Religious Liberty at the
Southern Union Conference
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of Seventh-day Adventists.
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Very good!
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Well, you've been there
awhile and you're hardly new
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to religious liberty.
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Yes, that's right.
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You've been working for
religious liberty issues and
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advocacy with
legislators for many years.
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We've spoken on this program
before about church/state
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issues, and
often about elections.
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I think it's
interesting to think way back
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to the election of 1800.
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I know you're a buff of history
too, and those of us that follow
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this know that that
was a very key election,
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when Thomas Jefferson, now an
icon of America, but then a very
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contentious figure
was elected as President,
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and something that I
actually haven't read recently
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in a lot of the talk that
preceded, or is preceding,
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the election of 2008.
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Yes, and the 1800
election was definitely a
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very interesting one.
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Yeah, well coming out
of the election, Aaron Burr
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and Thomas Jefferson both
had 73 electoral college votes.
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Wow!
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Absolutely deadlocked!
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And it was the House
of Representatives that
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made the choice.
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Very arbitrary!
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They didn't get the
Supreme Court into the action...
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Right.
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...but the
Constitution allows for this.
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Thomas Jefferson became
President and Aaron Burr
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the Vice President.
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It could have just as
easily been the other way.
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Thomas Jefferson
wrote some wonderful things
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in his Inaugural Address,
and I want to share this
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with our listeners.
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He spoke there,
fairly succinctly,
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about some of the principles,
and he says, "Equal and exact
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justice to all men, of
whatever state or persuasion,
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religious or political. "
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Then he spoke about a
summation of these things.
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At the end of it he
says, "These principles,"
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and what were the principles?
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The last sentence
says, "freedom of religion,
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freedom of the press,
and freedom of person under
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the protection of
the habeas corpus,
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and trial by juries
impartially selected. "
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On another program we
might talk a little bit about
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habeas corpus
and where its gone.
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Yes, right.
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We're under a
different model than Jefferson
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was so confident on.
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He says, "These principles
form the bright constellation
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which has gone before us and
guided our steps through an age
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of revolution and reformation.
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The wisdom of our sages,
and the blood of our heroes,
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have been devoted
to their attainment.
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They should be the
creed of our political faith,
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the text of civic instruction,
the touchstone by which to try
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the services of
those we trust... "
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That's certainly
the electoral process.
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"... and should we wonder
from them in moments of error
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or alarm, let us
hasten to retrace our steps,
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and to regain the road
which alone leads to peace,
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safety and liberty. "
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Do you think we're
wandering right now?
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Ah, yes.
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Was that the world of Jefferson?
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But, not only that, but
we're in a time of alarm.
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Certainly.
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That's what he said
though, that those two areas,
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that they were already well
aware of how things can change
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in a nation, or in
governments very quickly.
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I hope on a previous program
I've mentioned Revelation 13.
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Uh huh.
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For those of us in Seventh-day
Adventist religious liberty
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work, we always keep
Revelation 13 sort of at the
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back of our minds.
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What does that
chapter say to you?
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Well, it comes to a
time, if we're understanding,
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as Adventists understand
Revelation, the second beast,
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or what we call, or at least
what I call, the lamb beast,
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is going to do something
that is going to compromise the
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separation of church and state
by creating an image to the
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first beast, which
was a church/state union.
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Yeah, we've got to be
careful for those uninitiated.
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Yeah, that's right.
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Any discussion of Revelation can
have a little too many beasts
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roaming around.
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Right.
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At the very least it's like an
adult who's never read a Narnia
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book watching that film,
and it could just seem like
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a fantastic bestiary.
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Right.
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But within Revelation itself it
does explain the identities of
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some of the beasts.
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So it's quite plainly
a satanically inspired
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system of false religion,
where the state advances some
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religious view and
imposes it upon the citizenry.
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Right.
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I think that's plain
enough to anyone that really
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analyzes that chapter.
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Seventh-day Adventists
have long felt that this looks
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forward to the United States at
some future point, still future,
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certainly not now, when
this world leader, because it's
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clearly a world power that's
allied with the wrong principle,
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will actually compel to a
form of religious observance.
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That's correct.
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I think you and I, and
many who are watching religious
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and political developments
feel a little foreboding that we
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might be heading
towards something like that.
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Yes, in fact it has headed
that way before in our history.
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Yes, you're right.
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You know that back in the 1800's
there was legislation, that was
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very overtly religious at the
time, that was going to compel
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the populous to have to
attend religious services
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on a certain day
for certain reasons.
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That's true, and even
today we still have Blue Laws
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on the books in most
states, which were not strongly
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compelling, but they were rules
and regulations derived from
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Sunday sacredness relating
to store closings and certain
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behavior that might be
appropriate or inappropriate
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on Sunday.
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Well, I mean in the early 1800's
there were even states that were
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prosecuting violations of Sunday
sacredness, and people were
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actually put into chain gangs
and into jails and what not
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because of violations.
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And out of that
grew the desire to see a
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national Sunday prohibition.
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What they were
attacking at first, at the time,
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were saloons, because they were
trying to pull it together with
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the prohibition movement.
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So there were already some
very interesting things in our
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history that have shown where
the state has been trying to
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force the church enactment.
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Yeah, I've even seen the
photographs from a century ago
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of some Seventh-day Adventists
down south, in your area...
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In Tennessee.
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...on a chain gang and literally
standing on the stones...
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That's right.
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hard labor for doing nothing
more than breaking a Blue Law.
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Although to describe it
accurately, I think they then,
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as sometimes even when I
was younger, I can remember
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people that didn't
agree with Blue Laws would
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sort of provoke them;
would do something on purpose.
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Right.
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A Blue Law then, and now, is a
sort of law that if you actually
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go along with it, it's
easy to ignore, basically.
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Uh hum.
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And certainly as Seventh-day
Adventists worshipping
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on Saturday, is not
directly affected by a Blue Law.
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No.
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But as someone who
believes in the Constitution
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and religious liberty, we have
to object to that sort of thing
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because it's something
that's against the principles
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of religious freedom.
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It truly is against the
principles annunciated in the
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Bill of Rights
and the Constitution.
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Yeah, let me tell
our listeners something.
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I'm looking at a blog-
interesting dialog on a blog
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site between someone who
is explaining what Sunday Laws
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in America once were,
and a couple of people
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that defend them.
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Okay.
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You know there's defenders
of these things, for good public
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morality, and order of society.
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But reading here one of the
laws, of the colony of Virginia
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in 1610, certainly
before the Constitution,
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it says, "Every man and woman
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shall repair in the morning to
the divine service, and sermons
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preached upon the Sabbath day. "
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Yeah, because they mean Sunday.
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Right.
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Because most pastors
might like this direction.
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"And in the afternoon to
divine service, and catechizing,
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upon pain for the first
fault to loose their provision,
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and the allowance for
the whole week following. "
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In other words
no food allocations.
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"For the second to
loose the said allowance,
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and also to be whipped, and
for the third to suffer death.
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Wow!
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Now that's pretty serious!
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Three strikes and you're out!
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It didn't just start
about twenty years ago,
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this goes back to the beginning.
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That's right.
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Death if you
break the Sabbath day.
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So while it
might seem incredible,
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and clearly is incredible in
our present state of civil law,
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to think that we could ever have
this here, we have once had it,
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and incredible things happen
all of the time in this world.
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And the way we're heading, it's
not improbable for something
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like that to come
around again, is it?
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No, because again we could
go right back to the reference
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to Jefferson, you
know, in times of alarm.
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And its always been in the times
of alarm that civil religion,
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as we call it, has really taken
a foothold in the populace,
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and has moved toward more of a
closer enforcement of religious
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dogma by the state.
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So I think it's something we
always have to keep our eyes on
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because it's always there.
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I think that in some ways
there's always an undercurrent
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of that, because there's always
a group that seems to believe
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strongly, and I guess
there's arguments for it, too,
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that by legislating and
enforcing morality we would have
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a more stable society.
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Well, they're saying that now.
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Well, definitely.
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They don't have to
wait for that message.
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No, right!
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I don't think anyone with an
open mind, and an understanding
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of religious
liberty, would want to go back
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to that sort of a law.
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And as this person even reminds
us, George Washington was
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detained by a tithing man
for violating Connecticut's
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law forbidding
unnecessary travel on Sunday.
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How interesting!
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I mean he was the President!
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And he was permitted to continue
on his journey only after
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he promised to go no
further than his destination.
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Right, ha ha.
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That sort of reminds me a
little bit of the gas crisis
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in the 70's.
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We were getting close
to that sort of thing.
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You were not to travel
unnecessarily on Sunday.
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I can remember cases of truck
drivers running people off the
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road for either speeding,
or of traveling with the wrong,
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whether it was an odd or
an even tag on certain days.
00:11:03.39\00:11:06.84
So it's not enough to think just
that there was an over jealous
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religious official, very
often the society backs this up
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as we have in Saudi Arabia.
00:11:17.88\00:11:19.28
They've got their
religious police roving around,
00:11:19.31\00:11:24.50
but as well as that, fearing
those police, people would
00:11:24.53\00:11:26.92
sort of police themselves.
00:11:26.95\00:11:28.43
I think that
sort of thing went on.
00:11:28.94\00:11:31.30
Changing the subject a
little bit, close to our break,
00:11:31.33\00:11:35.73
but maybe we'll
continue this after the break.
00:11:35.76\00:11:38.28
I was asked a question at
a religious liberty seminar
00:11:38.31\00:11:43.96
the other day; how this all
related, as the person said,
00:11:43.99\00:11:48.08
to our understanding
of the secret rapture.
00:11:48.11\00:11:51.31
And that threw me!
00:11:51.34\00:11:53.90
I think, as any viewer
knows, most viewers know,
00:11:53.93\00:11:56.43
Seventh-day Adventists don't
believe in the secret rapture.
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Right.
00:11:59.12\00:12:00.64
But at the same time, the secret
rapture, while many in the
00:12:00.68\00:12:04.05
community also may not know
what this means, it's driving
00:12:04.08\00:12:08.29
some of the expectations,
and some of the dynamics of
00:12:08.32\00:12:11.11
church/state, and religion
seeking power and influence
00:12:11.14\00:12:15.28
in civil affairs.
00:12:15.31\00:12:17.23
I'll look forward to that.
00:12:17.26\00:12:18.23
Yes, so let's
discuss it a little.
00:12:18.24\00:12:19.93
Okay.
00:12:19.96\00:12:20.93
Well, maybe we'll get
ourselves into trouble.
00:12:20.94\00:12:22.14
We'd like our viewers
to watch this carefully,
00:12:22.17\00:12:26.81
because it's more than just an
esoteric doctrine, or an idea,
00:12:26.84\00:12:30.72
because I would hardly even
call it a doctrine; idea that is
00:12:30.75\00:12:34.21
a hundred and some years old,
relatively recent in Christian
00:12:34.24\00:12:38.76
views, but it's driving foreign
policy, and it's driving a view
00:12:38.79\00:12:43.28
of Americans in this country
on what the church and state
00:12:43.31\00:12:47.48
should
accomplish working together.
00:12:47.51\00:12:49.66
100 Years-a long
time to do anything,
00:13:00.08\00:13:03.61
much less publish a
magazine, but this year Liberty,
00:13:03.64\00:13:07.62
the Seventh-day Adventist
voice of religious freedom,
00:13:07.65\00:13:10.41
celebrates 100 years of
doing what it does best:
00:13:10.44\00:13:14.05
collecting, analyzing, and
reporting, the ebb and flow
00:13:14.08\00:13:17.88
of religious
expression around the world.
00:13:17.91\00:13:20.00
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Welcome back to Liberty Insider.
00:14:57.53\00:14:59.54
Before the break we were
stumbling toward presenting
00:14:59.57\00:15:03.08
something that really is almost
a doctrine that doesn't normally
00:15:03.11\00:15:07.19
speak its name, even though
you hear a lot of talk about the
00:15:07.22\00:15:10.75
effects of it:
the secret rapture.
00:15:10.78\00:15:12.75
That's not something that
Seventh-day Adventists dwell on
00:15:13.26\00:15:16.32
very much because our
reading of Revelation takes us
00:15:16.35\00:15:19.75
in a different direction.
00:15:19.78\00:15:20.88
More and more people are picking
up on something that a fellow
00:15:20.91\00:15:24.70
named John Darby cooked up, ,
00:15:24.73\00:15:29.65
he popularized something in
the early 1800's that he himself
00:15:29.68\00:15:34.93
heard from a
mystic, a Mrs. Mac Donald.
00:15:34.96\00:15:40.62
She had some visions that
were really unclear in a way,
00:15:40.65\00:15:45.56
but she got out of that that
there were really two phases
00:15:45.59\00:15:48.06
to Christ's second coming,
rather than as the Bible,
00:15:48.09\00:15:50.63
by my plain reading,
always says that God will come,
00:15:50.66\00:15:53.47
Jesus will come back a
second time with the angels,
00:15:53.50\00:15:56.49
and the host of
heaven, and the trumpet,
00:15:56.52\00:15:58.29
and the dead will be raised.
00:15:58.32\00:16:00.03
It's quite an
amazingly inspiring scene.
00:16:00.06\00:16:03.77
Darby developed the idea
that there would be this secret
00:16:04.33\00:16:08.56
extraction of the faithful, and
then there will be a period of
00:16:08.59\00:16:13.67
about 31/2 years or so of
trouble, and then God would
00:16:13.70\00:16:17.86
finish it all.
00:16:17.89\00:16:18.86
Right.
00:16:18.87\00:16:20.19
That's the normal outline
that's been developed from that.
00:16:20.23\00:16:22.84
Most people today, I think,
know it lists by its doctrinal
00:16:22.87\00:16:26.60
outlines than the
way its expressed in the
00:16:26.63\00:16:28.44
"Left Behind" series.
00:16:28.47\00:16:29.59
Yes, very popular.
00:16:29.62\00:16:30.82
They've had movies on this.
00:16:30.85\00:16:32.99
Not very good movies obviously.
00:16:33.02\00:16:35.16
They weren't critical successes,
but they're out there,
00:16:35.19\00:16:39.79
and people have seen them.
00:16:39.82\00:16:40.79
The books have
sold, as I remember,
00:16:40.80\00:16:42.66
about 9 million
copies at last counting.
00:16:42.69\00:16:45.55
So the idea has
been popularized.
00:16:45.58\00:16:47.55
As we've gone into Iraq, I
read enough to know that there's
00:16:47.58\00:16:51.29
a sizeable percentage of the
U.S. population that think this
00:16:51.32\00:16:54.79
is a fulfillment of prophecy,
as a prelude to that moment,
00:16:54.82\00:16:59.42
and they're expecting
the imminent disappearance
00:16:59.45\00:17:02.56
of all true
Christians of the church.
00:17:02.59\00:17:04.19
Of course, there've been other
movies, films, and stories made
00:17:04.22\00:17:07.70
with the idea that, (which
is horrendous when you think
00:17:07.73\00:17:09.96
about it), that the airline
pilots will vanish mid-flight.
00:17:09.99\00:17:12.51
I'm nervous enough on the
plane even with the pilot!
00:17:12.54\00:17:15.48
I hope that before they go
the press the auto pilot button.
00:17:15.51\00:17:20.89
We can laugh about
it, and people have,
00:17:20.92\00:17:25.37
but some people take this
very seriously, don't they?
00:17:25.40\00:17:28.34
Absolutely!
00:17:28.38\00:17:30.04
I think it's almost hijacking
this sense of Christian America,
00:17:30.07\00:17:34.39
and it links very
quickly to a fatalistic sort of
00:17:34.42\00:17:38.81
foreign policy.
00:17:38.84\00:17:39.81
Right.
00:17:39.82\00:17:40.79
And it does because with
the secret rapture doctrine,
00:17:40.80\00:17:43.98
that Darby actually
developed quite a bit from
00:17:44.01\00:17:46.91
Mrs. Mac Donald's "insights",
or visions that she had.
00:17:46.94\00:17:51.14
Of course, Schofield popularized
it bringing it over here.
00:17:51.17\00:17:54.19
One of the one of the key
components of that whole thing
00:17:54.22\00:17:57.94
is the Middle East.
00:17:57.97\00:17:58.94
It's a very key aspect of it,
and it became even more of a key
00:17:58.95\00:18:02.27
aspect once Israel
became a nation in 1948.
00:18:02.30\00:18:05.18
That even changed
some more dynamics where
00:18:05.21\00:18:07.73
"The Late Great Planet Earth"
became a very, very big book
00:18:07.76\00:18:11.46
at that time, predicting
that after the generation,
00:18:11.49\00:18:15.58
Hal Lindsey...
00:18:15.61\00:18:17.16
And it still figures in
very prominently with the
00:18:17.19\00:18:21.31
understanding of foreign
policy and what we're doing.
00:18:21.34\00:18:24.02
That's right, and you put
your finger on it, I think.
00:18:24.05\00:18:25.96
If it wasn't effecting foreign
policy and public affairs
00:18:25.99\00:18:29.77
so much we could maybe mention
it in passing as just another
00:18:29.80\00:18:33.30
religious idea that people will
have every right to believe.
00:18:33.33\00:18:35.88
But it's starting to impact
our daily life, and civil life,
00:18:35.91\00:18:41.11
and I don't think everybody
realizes what's driving this.
00:18:41.14\00:18:46.15
It's almost become a
self fulfilling prophecy,
00:18:46.18\00:18:48.70
and it's amazing to me
how little Biblical basis
00:18:48.73\00:18:52.95
there is for this.
00:18:52.98\00:18:53.99
I mentioned before
some of the Bible texts,
00:18:54.02\00:18:56.51
like in 1st Corinthians 15.
00:18:56.54\00:18:58.64
It says, "Behold I tell you a
mystery, we shall not all sleep,
00:18:58.67\00:19:01.92
but we shall all be
changed in a moment,
00:19:01.95\00:19:03.84
in the twinkling of an
eye, at the last trumpet,
00:19:03.87\00:19:06.22
for the trumpet will sound,
and the dead will be raised
00:19:06.25\00:19:09.21
incorruptible, and we
shall all be changed. "
00:19:09.24\00:19:11.07
You know this is a
massive public moment.
00:19:11.10\00:19:14.26
It's not a secret moment.
00:19:14.29\00:19:15.87
It says, "For the Lord himself",
this is from 1Thessalonians 4,
00:19:15.90\00:19:22.83
"For the Lord himself
will descend from heaven with a
00:19:22.86\00:19:24.95
shout, with the voice of an
arch angel, and with the trumpet
00:19:24.98\00:19:28.27
of God, and the dead in
Christ will arise first,
00:19:28.30\00:19:31.15
then we who are alive and remain
shall be caught up together. "
00:19:31.18\00:19:35.14
I guess they could say remain
after, but it's not that remain.
00:19:35.17\00:19:39.07
"... remain alive, and
they shall be caught up together
00:19:39.10\00:19:41.41
with them to meet
the Lord in the air. "
00:19:41.44\00:19:42.95
The only real Bible text that
I can see that can be easily
00:19:42.98\00:19:47.59
hijacked for this doctrine is
where Jesus is speaking of the
00:19:47.62\00:19:51.17
end time, really referring
to Noah and the flood, where the
00:19:51.20\00:19:55.10
flood took them all away.
00:19:55.13\00:19:56.18
Matthew 24.
00:19:56.21\00:19:57.18
Yeah, he says that
when the son of man comes
00:19:57.19\00:20:00.96
there will be two in the
field, one will be taken,
00:20:00.99\00:20:03.37
and then one will be left.
00:20:03.40\00:20:04.53
Well, it's very plain in
the context, as well as how
00:20:04.56\00:20:08.05
that's always used.
00:20:08.08\00:20:09.05
The taken is
taken away; destroyed.
00:20:09.06\00:20:11.19
Right.
00:20:11.22\00:20:12.19
Where the secret
rapture proponents try to say
00:20:12.22\00:20:15.11
this is the one taken
away to be with the Lord.
00:20:15.14\00:20:18.07
Right.
00:20:18.11\00:20:19.32
I mean if you
actually look at the text,
00:20:19.35\00:20:20.32
if that was the
only text that there was,
00:20:20.33\00:20:21.91
there might be a strong
case to some kind of a taking,
00:20:21.94\00:20:25.17
but when you look at the
context that is connected right
00:20:25.20\00:20:27.66
with the illustration
that Jesus gave on the Noadic,
00:20:27.69\00:20:32.10
it's very clear that
there were only two classes
00:20:32.13\00:20:36.38
when the flood came.
00:20:36.41\00:20:38.26
Okay, there was Noah and
his family inside the boat,
00:20:38.29\00:20:41.06
and there were the ones
outside who didn't believe
00:20:41.09\00:20:42.96
and get on the boat.
00:20:42.99\00:20:44.01
So Jesus is just illustrating
there's two classes at the end
00:20:44.04\00:20:47.59
of time too; one will be
taken and one will be left.
00:20:47.62\00:20:50.25
And so, I think just the context
itself seems to bare out the
00:20:50.28\00:20:53.91
fact that there's
not very much support
00:20:53.94\00:20:56.38
at all for this teaching.
00:20:56.41\00:20:58.92
Yeah, but as I say, as
we've discussed before,
00:20:58.95\00:21:02.88
we can't really dismiss it very
easily because it seems to be
00:21:02.91\00:21:08.13
coloring this view of a newly
energized Christian America
00:21:08.16\00:21:13.30
that has a role
to play in the world.
00:21:13.33\00:21:15.36
We look askance at Ahmadinejad
of Iran with his twelve imams
00:21:15.39\00:21:23.07
nonsense, well
it's not nonsense.
00:21:23.10\00:21:25.15
He doesn't think it's nonsense.
00:21:25.18\00:21:26.83
It's the self-fulfilling
prophecy of a chaotic end time
00:21:26.86\00:21:31.74
when this imam appears.
00:21:31.77\00:21:33.14
We can also be pursuing a
very self-fulfilling prophecy
00:21:33.17\00:21:38.24
of chaos in the Middle
East, and non responsibility for
00:21:38.27\00:21:43.60
Christians because they're
about to be snatched away.
00:21:43.63\00:21:45.50
I don't know if I've told
you before, but I think I've
00:21:45.53\00:21:49.18
mentioned it on this program,
that before he died, I sat down
00:21:49.21\00:21:52.78
with D. James Kennedy and
discussed some of these issues.
00:21:52.81\00:21:55.52
He was an interesting fellow.
00:21:55.55\00:21:58.99
He felt strongly what he was
promoting, and on many things,
00:21:59.02\00:22:03.01
if not most things, he had very
good Biblically based views.
00:22:03.04\00:22:06.44
At one point we got
onto the secret rapture.
00:22:06.47\00:22:09.43
He said, "You know, I used
to believe in the secret rapture
00:22:09.46\00:22:14.05
once, but I dropped it. "
00:22:14.08\00:22:15.45
He said, "Do you
want to know why?"
00:22:15.48\00:22:17.14
He said, "Because I realized
that with the secret rapture
00:22:17.17\00:22:20.57
God doesn't clearly win. "
00:22:20.60\00:22:22.49
Interesting insight!
00:22:22.52\00:22:25.27
And to me, it is an
indeterminate sort of a result
00:22:25.30\00:22:29.25
for a great spiritual battle.
00:22:29.28\00:22:30.84
As we've said on this program,
the Seventh-day Adventist
00:22:30.87\00:22:33.95
believe in a great controversy.
00:22:33.98\00:22:35.42
From creation, well the
fall of Satan in heaven,
00:22:35.45\00:22:39.84
the creation of man is
part of the plan to move beyond
00:22:39.87\00:22:43.84
the loss of
those angels in heaven;
00:22:43.87\00:22:45.81
and then Satan's subverting man;
God coming to give a means to
00:22:45.84\00:22:50.99
recreate man in
his original purity,
00:22:51.02\00:22:54.94
and then Satan battling it
00:22:54.97\00:22:57.79
right down to Armageddon,
this final spiritual battle;
00:22:57.82\00:23:01.57
and then Christ appearing.
00:23:01.60\00:23:02.87
I think with that progression:
we've got a set battle,
00:23:02.90\00:23:08.18
a conflict, and then a
resolution in favor of God.
00:23:08.21\00:23:12.11
Well, how is that proven if
the representatives of God are
00:23:12.14\00:23:16.04
pulled out of this
precisely at the moment of test?
00:23:16.07\00:23:18.39
Exactly!
00:23:18.43\00:23:19.64
And I think it's very
insightful what Mr. Kennedy
00:23:19.67\00:23:21.77
shared with you.
00:23:21.80\00:23:24.05
I think it shows God's
power even greater by the very
00:23:24.08\00:23:27.86
fact that He can keep His people
through the time of difficulty,
00:23:27.89\00:23:30.72
as we understand Revelation and
end time events, than it is to
00:23:30.75\00:23:34.95
snatch them out and loose that
witness, and that demonstration
00:23:34.98\00:23:38.59
of His ability,
as kind of like Job.
00:23:38.62\00:23:41.08
You know, it's
the Job discussion.
00:23:41.11\00:23:43.59
You know, remember, God
was talking to Satan and Satan
00:23:43.62\00:23:46.19
said well, you know,
just do something to Job,
00:23:46.22\00:23:49.53
and he'll curse
you to your face?
00:23:49.56\00:23:50.88
God allowed that trial to
go on through Job because He
00:23:50.91\00:23:54.33
demonstrated that what He
had said about Job was true.
00:23:54.36\00:23:56.64
I've mentioned before
that I've gone back looking in
00:23:56.67\00:24:02.09
Liberty Magazine in
times of strife and stress.
00:24:02.12\00:24:07.34
In 1939 there was an
article in Liberty called
00:24:07.37\00:24:11.58
"Democracy and
Liberty Assailed".
00:24:11.61\00:24:13.38
I'm in a reading
mood on this program.
00:24:13.41\00:24:17.80
I'd like to read you a couple
of sentences that was printed in
00:24:17.83\00:24:21.09
this Religious Liberty
journal in the time of crisis.
00:24:21.12\00:24:23.92
He says, "Few of us
realize the significance of the
00:24:23.95\00:24:28.40
tremendous new forces that
are stirring the world today. "
00:24:28.43\00:24:31.39
I think we know
this as we discuss this.
00:24:31.42\00:24:35.63
"The foundations of
the past are crumbling. "
00:24:35.66\00:24:38.52
We've seen Communism
collapse, and that's not a good
00:24:38.55\00:24:42.50
foundation, but that's
been a basis of modern life.
00:24:42.53\00:24:45.37
The family is crumbling.
00:24:45.40\00:24:47.54
Society is in flux.
00:24:47.57\00:24:49.40
Religion may not appear
to be crumbling to some,
00:24:49.43\00:24:52.91
but the old norms of religious
faith are definitely crumbling.
00:24:52.94\00:24:56.57
And while some may not accept
it without thinking about it,
00:24:56.60\00:25:01.64
our Constitutional assumptions
are crumbling, I believe.
00:25:01.67\00:25:06.03
In serious ways we're
re-examining the role of the
00:25:06.06\00:25:10.48
individual in having a
responsibility in the state.
00:25:10.51\00:25:16.26
You might think
that I'm over stating it,
00:25:16.29\00:25:18.81
but to me even a recent
court case on the faith based
00:25:18.84\00:25:22.23
initiative that denied a
standing that takes place
00:25:22.26\00:25:25.61
to question actions takes
people out of responsibility.
00:25:25.64\00:25:30.25
All of these
things are changing.
00:25:30.28\00:25:31.59
And it says, "New idealistic
forms of social and political
00:25:31.62\00:25:35.35
life are threatening to
over throw the present order,
00:25:35.38\00:25:37.90
and if they succeed, our civil
and religious liberties will be
00:25:37.93\00:25:45.05
but a memory.
00:25:45.08\00:25:46.05
These powerful influences are
definitely opposed to liberty,
00:25:46.06\00:25:50.08
democracy, and Christianity... "
00:25:50.11\00:25:53.30
I would put it as
true Christianity.
00:25:53.33\00:25:54.89
"... under whatever
name they may be advocated. "
00:25:54.92\00:25:57.10
Maybe I should give the
first sentence of this article.
00:25:57.13\00:26:00.40
It says, "The thoughtful
observer, as he looks out upon
00:26:00.43\00:26:03.29
the political and religious
world today, becomes deeply
00:26:03.32\00:26:06.51
conscious of the fact that
civil and religious liberty
00:26:06.54\00:26:09.38
are in peril. "
00:26:09.41\00:26:10.41
Well, I'll tell you, Lincoln,
it looks like history is
00:26:10.44\00:26:14.18
repeating itself again.
00:26:14.21\00:26:15.80
Over and over again we're seeing
forces and things taking on,
00:26:15.83\00:26:19.98
in our culture today, that seem
to be moving us towards this
00:26:20.01\00:26:23.23
idea that there's going to
be a union of church and state,
00:26:23.26\00:26:26.89
in the purpose of
trying to stabilize society
00:26:26.92\00:26:29.76
that seems to be unraveling
with all sorts of problems
00:26:29.79\00:26:34.11
of immorality, lack of
true social endeavors that would
00:26:34.14\00:26:43.05
help society.
00:26:43.08\00:26:44.05
That by putting the
church and state together we're
00:26:44.06\00:26:46.39
going to make it more stable.
00:26:46.42\00:26:47.39
That's something we're
going to have to fight against
00:26:47.40\00:26:49.45
and look out for
each and every day.
00:26:49.48\00:26:51.79
I'm very thankful that as I read
my Bible, the second coming of
00:26:55.47\00:26:59.47
Jesus Christ is
anything but a secret event.
00:26:59.50\00:27:03.12
There's no such thing as
a secret rapture when you're
00:27:03.15\00:27:06.72
talking about the second coming.
00:27:06.75\00:27:08.38
When we think about some
of the events that precede
00:27:08.41\00:27:11.59
that great day, I think equally,
we should expect it to be,
00:27:11.62\00:27:15.56
as Jesus said, "Shout
it from the house tops",
00:27:15.59\00:27:18.17
not kept in darkness.
00:27:18.20\00:27:20.18
I know many of my church, the
Seventh-day Adventist Church,
00:27:20.21\00:27:23.92
a group who are
committed to religious freedom,
00:27:23.95\00:27:26.83
are inclined sometimes to
believe the stories that they
00:27:26.86\00:27:30.71
think might take place behind
some darkened door or in some
00:27:30.74\00:27:33.85
closed chamber.
00:27:33.88\00:27:35.26
We think, from prophecy,
that there will be Sunday Laws
00:27:35.29\00:27:38.83
at some point.
00:27:38.86\00:27:39.87
We work diligently to inhibit
that coming because there is a
00:27:39.90\00:27:43.85
message to proclaim.
00:27:43.88\00:27:45.51
But Sunday Laws are
not going to come secretly.
00:27:45.54\00:27:48.08
We need to proclaim our hope
of an open second coming as long
00:27:48.11\00:27:53.39
as we can, as loudly as we can,
and as triumphantly as we can,
00:27:53.42\00:27:57.41
because that day is to be
seen by all, especially those
00:27:57.44\00:28:01.37
who are looking with
favor and expectation
00:28:01.40\00:28:04.08
for that second coming.
00:28:04.11\00:28:05.63
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:28:05.66\00:28:08.83