Hello, and welcome
to "Liberty Insider."
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This is the show
where we talk about
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religious
liberty, news, and updates.
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My name is Michael Peabody.
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And I'm Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine.
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Michael, it's been said that
one of the cliches of all time
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is that "All
roads lead to Rome."
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And that's not quite
true, but more and more nowadays
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a lot of the news that
we hear really does center
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on Rome and some
of the goings on that.
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And I'd like to
share and discuss with you
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a little bit starting with Rome,
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a conference that I
attended few months ago now
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that was not only in
Rome, but it was held
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at the Gregorian
Pontifical University.
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I know some of us
Seventh-day Adventists
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think we know that institution
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because a Dr.
Samuele Bacchiocchi
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graduated from there
quite a few years ago.
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But this
conference was held there
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and it was a very
significant conference.
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I don't know if you already
knew something about this
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and I'm sure you'll have
some thoughts to add on this,
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but to me it was
very significant.
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I decided to attend
because of Liberty Magazine
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and because of contacts
that I have with the organizer,
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a Roman Catholic
himself, Joe Grieboski,
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who runs a religious liberty
organization in Washington,
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but his conference
in Rome was interesting
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because he drew
together so many people
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from different
parts of the world,
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but in many ways it
had a focused on Rome.
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Because they
were many ambassadors
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to the Vatican from
the particular countries.
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There were the number of
cardinals and high ranking
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Roman Catholic officials
based in Rome that presented.
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And as well as that
we had many legislators
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from around the world from
a wide variety of countries
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and they were
gathered at what was called
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an
Inter-Parliamentary Conference
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on human rights
and religious freedom.
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You know, we've
discussed before on this program
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how important
religious liberty is not just
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in the United
States, but around the world.
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They mentioned
this Inter-Parlimenter--
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Inter-Parliamentary.
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It's not a tongue
twister, but go ahead.
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What does that mean?
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Well, it was a signal,
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I hadn't even
read clearly myself
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before I attended
this that while I was there
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and they were other NGOs,
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Non-governmental
Organization Representatives.
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It was pitched
directly at parliamentarians
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or legislators from
different countries.
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So in many ways this
was bringing in leaders
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and those in the leadership
of different countries
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to hear from the
presenters how they could deal
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with religious liberty
issues and some peripheral
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or related issues like
how churches respond to AIDS,
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how the churches would
respond to the trafficking
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in persons, and even
violence within countries.
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How to deal with
insurgencies and so on.
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I must admit I thought that
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that last one was
hard to pull together,
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but it was there
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in the context of religious
liberty. Well, it seems like.
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I do have some
type of common nexus
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with religious liberty
issues. It was very interesting.
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While we were there
and I think I mentioned it
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in one of our other programs,
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the viewers may
have already seen.
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The Pope was in Turkey,
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and some fix up diplomatic
work related to his speech
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that seemed to
have offended Muslims.
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And I remember
watching the television
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showing those news footage
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and listening to
the Vatican spokesman
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saying that Rome has been
building bridges for decades,
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in this case, with Islam.
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And he made an
interesting comment, he said,
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"Now is the time to
cross those bridges.
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"So I felt that
while we were in Rome,
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this was a very
significant moment
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the things were happening.
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And so it was
interesting for me to listen to
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what was said at the conference
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and further than that
to even move around Rome
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and look at Rome.
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And I did think again,
not my first visit to Rome,
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but I thought
again of Martin Luther,
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so many hundreds of
years ago at what turned out
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to be the beginning of
the reformation in Europe.
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When he first visited Rome
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and it was an eye opener to him,
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as a provincial
priest and theologian,
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now he's been
brought into this great city.
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And even today after
hundreds of years and,
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you know, World Wars and riots
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and all the rest in Rome,
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and the despoiling of
that Roman Catholic Church
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is controlled there for awhile,
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but now they're reinstated.
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It was amazing to see
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what really is a
glorious historic city.
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And equally amazing,
this is an interesting facade,
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I don't know what it means,
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but I hardly saw any
pictures of the Virgin Mary,
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she seems to have
vanished from Rome. Wow.
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And this program
can't discuss that,
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it's nothing other
than that's a fact.
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And I mentioned it to
the organizer Joe Grieboski,
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and he'd noticed the same thing.
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So there is a change of all
nature to this Eternal City,
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it can present
a different front.
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And I like the front that we saw
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at our Religious
Liberty Conference,
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it started off with
a discussion of AIDS.
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And Liberty Magazine, well has
never dealt with AIDS per se,
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we preferably
touched on that topic
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in dealing with
same sex marriage and so,
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which comes under the same
moral construct or pumps up
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against the same moral construct
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which Christians
feel strongly about.
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The sanctity of marriage
and prohibitions against
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male and female relationships.
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And so it was interesting
to be part of a discussion
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about how Christians
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and indeed all
people of religions
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would deal with this growing
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health crisis around the world,
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which has a moral component.
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And the amazing
thing, this is why
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I'm bringing this
up on this program.
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The amazing thing was
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that with all the
different presentations,
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different countries that
are truly affected by this,
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South Africa spoke
up with some length,
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they have a major problem.
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Nobody was willing to
give it a moral cast, nobody.
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In fact, it was
said the other way around
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that the
Christians and people of faith
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not only day and night
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are forbidden to
speak of their deeply held
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moral and religious
views on this topic.
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There are some religious beliefs
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in terms of treating
people with AIDS or the concerns
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about how people got
AIDS in the first place or--
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But they didn't get
into how they get it but,
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you know, how we
respond to the situation.
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And what I was
both impressed with
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and yet I think it
was significant in itself
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was the response of the
man from, he was representing
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the Eastern
Orthodox Church in Moscow,
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in fact, it's hard to
remember his name Arch deacon,
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Arch priest rather,
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Vsevolod
Chaplin, very nice fellow.
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He spoke up and he pointed
out something that I think
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would be the case
with Seventh-day Adventist,
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but he said, he's an
Eastern Orthodox congregations
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in around Moscow.
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He says, they will
share the Communal Cup
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when they
sacrifice, they're celebrating
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the ordinances
of the Lord supper.
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He says they will
kiss the same icons
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as people with AIDS.
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They don't make any distinction
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on those sort of
social dangers if you like,
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but he said, they
make it very plain
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that the context of
AIDS comes from a behavior
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that they see is
prohibited in the Bible.
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And I thought
that was very good,
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he had demonstrated
that they have compassion
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and more than compassion
that they just recognize
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and fellow human beings in need
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and are willing
to reach out to them
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and incorporate them
into their activities.
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But they reserve this
doctrinal understanding.
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And what shocked me was
that, to a man everybody else
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in the conference condemned
this sort of an attitude.
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And to me that went against
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the innate responsibility
of religious freedom.
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We are to allow
other people to believe
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in practices they want,
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but we cannot allow
ourselves to be inhibited into
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where we can't express our
particular religious views.
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I know people get AIDS in
a number of different ways,
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people are born with it-- Yes.
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You know, it can be a
bad blood transfusion.
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Yes, they're on the fringes
of it, there is a generality.
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We well know that in the west
it seems to be predominantly
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homosexual behavior
or intravenous drug use.
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In Africa, and
some other countries
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there is a large element
of just promiscuous behavior,
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I mean, whether or
not it generates primarily
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from gay behavior and
moves into heterosexual,
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we don't know but
it's not as confined
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to homosexual behavior.
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But anyway you look at
there is a moral component,
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yes, it will.
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No one would say that
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it's only from immoral actions.
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But my point is,
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we, it seems natural
for a Christian faith group
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that have the clear instructions
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on moral behaviors
and warnings against
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doing some of these other things
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to not be able to speak to that
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in the middle of a huge crisis
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that has a
large element of them.
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So it was refreshing to
hear Arch deacon Chaplin,
00:10:02.80\00:10:08.09
speak that way
even nobody else did.
00:10:08.10\00:10:12.13
It was interesting
to listen to ambassadors
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to the Vatican from
their different countries,
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talk about the religious
sensitivities that they have.
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It's interesting to recognize,
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I think a lot of
Americans may not know
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that we have a United States
Ambassador to the Holy See.
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Oh, really. Yes, and--
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How long have we had one?
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I think it's about,
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I think you asked me
that not a trick question,
00:10:41.83\00:10:44.07
but a question I
wasn't emotionally
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or
intellectually prepared to give.
00:10:45.89\00:10:48.86
Richard Nixon, I know tried to,
00:10:48.87\00:10:52.13
they've been a body of efforts
before that, but he put a,
00:10:52.14\00:10:56.74
an unofficial ambassador,
someone that was charged
00:10:56.75\00:11:00.29
to represent the
U.S, but as I remember
00:11:00.30\00:11:02.75
it was Ronald Reagan
that actually formalized it.
00:11:02.76\00:11:07.65
Which is a few years ago now.
00:11:07.66\00:11:10.72
But it's not well-known
to most people and it's,
00:11:10.73\00:11:14.65
you know, it's a
problematic development
00:11:14.66\00:11:16.66
from the point of
view of Protestant
00:11:16.67\00:11:18.88
versus Catholic sensibilities,
it's not necessarily improper
00:11:18.89\00:11:23.40
for the United
States to designate someone.
00:11:23.41\00:11:26.71
It, I think it's dangerous
00:11:26.72\00:11:28.94
given that this
is the only entity
00:11:28.95\00:11:31.52
that as it wants
the Church in the State.
00:11:31.53\00:11:34.74
Saudi Arabia
might be one as well.
00:11:34.75\00:11:37.30
It's close, but it is
not a Church and a State.
00:11:37.31\00:11:40.26
It's a state
that is the custodian
00:11:40.27\00:11:42.66
for the most Holy
Places of their faith.
00:11:42.67\00:11:46.15
It'll be like a Mecca
had on its own country.
00:11:46.16\00:11:48.14
Yes, exactly.
00:11:48.15\00:11:50.30
But it certainly shows
that there is been a change
00:11:50.31\00:11:53.23
over the years in
the Protestant U.S
00:11:53.24\00:11:55.25
and how it
relates to the Vatican,
00:11:55.26\00:11:59.92
but it was interesting
to see this development,
00:11:59.93\00:12:02.33
it was
interesting to talk to the U.S
00:12:02.34\00:12:04.95
Ambassador to the Holy See.
00:12:04.96\00:12:07.15
He most recently been Chief
Advisor to the Prime Minister,
00:12:07.16\00:12:12.07
so it was a quite a
high ranking diplomat
00:12:12.08\00:12:18.02
There was much good discussion
00:12:18.03\00:12:20.20
and it's always refreshing
00:12:20.21\00:12:22.06
and I should
remind our viewers that
00:12:22.07\00:12:25.27
that Seventh-day Adventists
00:12:25.28\00:12:26.30
along with most
other denominations,
00:12:26.31\00:12:28.70
Catholic,
Protestant, Jewish, and so on
00:12:28.71\00:12:33.07
We're involved
in regular dialogue
00:12:33.08\00:12:34.69
with other groups
on religious liberty
00:12:34.70\00:12:36.70
Doesn't mean we're working
to blur our distinctions,
00:12:36.71\00:12:40.50
but there is a
good healthy interchange
00:12:40.51\00:12:42.27
where we understand
better what the others stand for
00:12:42.28\00:12:46.84
and are able to
clarify our issues
00:12:46.85\00:12:48.95
And I think it's necessarily,
it's an ongoing thing
00:12:48.96\00:12:51.99
and we certainly
will continue to do that.
00:12:52.00\00:12:54.56
One-hundred years, a
long time to do anything,
00:13:05.11\00:13:09.20
much less publish a
magazine, but this year Liberty,
00:13:09.21\00:13:12.94
the Seventh-day Adventist
voice of religious freedom,
00:13:12.95\00:13:15.67
celebrates one-hundred years
of doing what it does best,
00:13:15.68\00:13:19.33
collecting, analyzing,
and reporting the ebb and flow
00:13:19.34\00:13:22.99
of religious
expression around the world.
00:13:23.00\00:13:25.56
Issue after issue,
00:13:25.57\00:13:27.33
Liberty has taken on
the tough assignments,
00:13:27.34\00:13:29.65
tracking down
threats to religious freedom
00:13:29.66\00:13:31.69
and exposing the
work of the devil
00:13:31.70\00:13:33.28
in every corner of the globe.
00:13:33.29\00:13:35.55
Governmental
interference, personal attacks,
00:13:35.56\00:13:38.13
corporate assaults,
even religious freedom issues
00:13:38.14\00:13:41.00
sequestered within the
Church community itself
00:13:41.01\00:13:43.26
have been clearly
and honestly exposed.
00:13:43.27\00:13:46.26
Liberty exists for one
purpose to help God's people
00:13:46.27\00:13:50.04
maintain that all important
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00:13:50.05\00:13:53.74
while recognizing the dangers
inherent in such a struggle.
00:13:53.75\00:13:57.78
During the past century,
00:13:57.79\00:13:58.97
Liberty has experienced
challenges of its own,
00:13:58.98\00:14:01.64
but it remains on the job.
00:14:01.65\00:14:03.86
Thanks to the
inspired leadership
00:14:03.87\00:14:05.40
of a long line of
dedicated Adventist Editors,
00:14:05.41\00:14:08.12
three of whom
represent almost half
00:14:08.13\00:14:09.92
of the publications existence
00:14:09.93\00:14:11.65
and the foresight of a
little woman from New England.
00:14:11.66\00:14:14.94
One-hundred years of struggle,
one-hundred years of victories,
00:14:14.95\00:14:19.23
religious freedom isn't
just about political machines
00:14:19.24\00:14:22.20
and cultural prejudices.
00:14:22.21\00:14:23.97
It's about people
fighting for the right
00:14:23.98\00:14:26.93
to serve the God
they love as their hearts
00:14:26.94\00:14:29.96
and the Holy Spirit dictate.
00:14:29.97\00:14:32.27
Thanks to the
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00:14:32.28\00:14:34.24
of Seventh-day
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00:14:34.25\00:14:36.64
Liberty will continue
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00:14:36.65\00:14:39.02
of providing timely information,
00:14:39.03\00:14:40.74
spirit filled inspiration,
00:14:40.75\00:14:42.31
and heaven sent encouragement
to all who long to live
00:14:42.32\00:14:46.28
and work in a world
bound together by the God
00:14:46.29\00:14:49.69
ordained bonds of
religious freedom.
00:14:49.70\00:14:52.71
Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider,
00:15:03.02\00:15:05.27
where we discussed
items of particular interest
00:15:05.28\00:15:07.83
for religious freedom
00:15:07.84\00:15:08.81
And we've been talking
for the last few minutes
00:15:08.82\00:15:11.05
and continuing
about a conference
00:15:11.06\00:15:13.41
that I attended in Rome, an
Inter-Parliamentary Conference
00:15:13.42\00:15:16.02
on religious
freedom. It was a wide ranging
00:15:16.03\00:15:19.14
discussions
starting as we talked about
00:15:19.15\00:15:21.89
churches and AIDS and of course,
00:15:21.90\00:15:23.68
the politicians
how they relate to it.
00:15:23.69\00:15:25.84
It went further a
field and I must say
00:15:25.85\00:15:29.20
some of it was
sort of troubling to me.
00:15:29.21\00:15:32.25
There was a presentation
given by a man who heads up
00:15:32.26\00:15:37.05
the umbrella organization
for independent contractors.
00:15:37.06\00:15:42.99
In other words,
mercenaries, I believe,
00:15:43.00\00:15:44.81
And it was interesting to see--
00:15:44.82\00:15:46.35
You know some military
contractors of some kind.
00:15:46.36\00:15:48.16
He didn't say
military at first, but he,
00:15:48.17\00:15:50.45
when I spoke to
him privately he says,
00:15:50.46\00:15:51.96
"Most of their
members are ex-military."
00:15:51.97\00:15:54.70
And as he spoke
to the legislators
00:15:54.71\00:15:56.67
he said that they could
give them a turnkey operation,
00:15:56.68\00:15:59.70
they could handle, you
know, giving out meals,
00:15:59.71\00:16:02.36
they could handle logistics,
00:16:02.37\00:16:03.90
they could even bring in
force multipliers and forces
00:16:03.91\00:16:08.21
For example, if it
was in an African country
00:16:08.22\00:16:10.26
and they didn't want
to see western faces,
00:16:10.27\00:16:11.99
they could provide the military.
00:16:12.00\00:16:14.57
It was a very useful service.
00:16:14.58\00:16:16.03
Very useful service
00:16:16.04\00:16:17.55
and something
that was seen in Iraq,
00:16:17.56\00:16:19.60
there's tens or thousands of
independent contractors there,
00:16:19.61\00:16:22.35
changing the face of
international conflict
00:16:22.36\00:16:26.25
But it was
troubling to me to see this
00:16:26.26\00:16:29.03
in the context
of religious freedom
00:16:29.04\00:16:31.19
and religious prerogatives
00:16:31.20\00:16:33.15
and to hear this being pitched
directly at the legislators
00:16:33.16\00:16:36.64
Many of whom, some
of the smaller countries
00:16:36.65\00:16:39.15
are facing conflicts that are
directly related to religion.
00:16:39.16\00:16:44.60
So again, this conference
heard a lot of people from
00:16:44.61\00:16:46.67
around the world representing
different governments.
00:16:46.68\00:16:48.80
Right, some countries
that have, currently have
00:16:48.81\00:16:53.07
a religious
conflict within their borders
00:16:53.08\00:16:55.82
So it's very
problematic where you have say,
00:16:55.83\00:16:59.12
there is a couple of where
you might have an Islamic regime
00:16:59.13\00:17:01.94
that's objecting to
a Christian population
00:17:01.95\00:17:06.53
And here now they
have the option to bring in
00:17:06.54\00:17:08.25
foreign
mercenaries to put that down.
00:17:08.26\00:17:10.16
So you go higher,
00:17:10.17\00:17:11.14
they'd go fight for anybody
just for the right person.
00:17:11.15\00:17:12.64
No, a mercenary
concept is pretty old,
00:17:12.65\00:17:15.68
and since we're in Rome,
great tradition, you know,
00:17:15.69\00:17:18.34
Rome worked through
mercenaries for many centuries
00:17:18.35\00:17:21.88
In fact, ironically that
was a dependence on mercenaries
00:17:21.89\00:17:24.96
that bought down Imperial Rome,
00:17:24.97\00:17:27.56
after a while the
mercenaries turned on the,
00:17:27.57\00:17:29.86
on the city-state and it
had no way to defend itself.
00:17:29.87\00:17:32.42
And go for the
higher dollar. Right.
00:17:32.43\00:17:35.12
But it is problematic to
see freelance military agents
00:17:35.13\00:17:39.50
bring in board into conflicts
00:17:39.51\00:17:40.64
that clearly have
a religious context.
00:17:40.65\00:17:43.76
I noticed that there was some
discussion in the conference
00:17:43.77\00:17:47.52
that in the last
ten years in Sudan,
00:17:47.53\00:17:50.77
one million Christians.
have been killed. Wow.
00:17:50.78\00:17:53.16
And we know that that's what
passes for warfare is really
00:17:53.17\00:17:58.30
in some ways
inter-religious conflict
00:17:58.31\00:18:01.60
And so I think the
world needs to be careful
00:18:01.61\00:18:04.32
and we in
pressuring or agitating
00:18:04.33\00:18:08.64
with our own
government to intervene
00:18:08.65\00:18:09.99
or do this or that here
are the, we need to recognize
00:18:10.00\00:18:12.56
that there is a
religious element often
00:18:12.57\00:18:14.36
and it might be improper to,
you know, to send the troops in.
00:18:14.37\00:18:18.00
You know, I was kind of
a lost over that number,
00:18:18.01\00:18:19.48
I need to say it
again one million people
00:18:19.49\00:18:21.80
In how long a time?
00:18:21.81\00:18:23.34
In ten years, but still as a--
00:18:23.35\00:18:25.53
Hundred thousand a
year. Hundred thousand a year.
00:18:25.54\00:18:28.19
I was going to
say that relate that
00:18:28.20\00:18:29.90
to the city of West
Frankfurt, where we're filming,
00:18:29.91\00:18:32.68
but that's too
many West Frankfurt's
00:18:32.69\00:18:34.59
But that certainly
like a Saint Louis,
00:18:34.60\00:18:36.60
Saint Louis is any, I
think about a million.
00:18:36.61\00:18:38.62
Well, as you know,
some reason they have--
00:18:38.63\00:18:40.18
Whole city disappeared.
00:18:40.19\00:18:42.39
You know, I think
some the U.S. States
00:18:42.40\00:18:44.02
don't have a million people.
00:18:44.03\00:18:45.02
No, so there is a lot
of people around the world
00:18:45.03\00:18:47.95
being killed basically
in the name of religion,
00:18:47.96\00:18:51.39
taking it closer
to what we understand
00:18:51.40\00:18:53.39
of our current
conflicts in Iraq,
00:18:53.40\00:18:57.61
what was in Iraq, I think
00:18:57.62\00:18:58.59
it was about 11
million population,
00:18:58.60\00:19:00.90
somewhere around
9, 10, 11 million
00:19:00.91\00:19:03.10
But in Iraq, before the invasion
00:19:03.11\00:19:04.93
they were one million Christians
00:19:04.94\00:19:07.03
who were previously not under
any particular persecution,
00:19:07.04\00:19:10.35
they're in a dicey situation
00:19:10.36\00:19:12.52
in an
overwhelming Islamic country
00:19:12.53\00:19:14.35
that where there was
some prejudice in society
00:19:14.36\00:19:18.97
and the Ba'ath
Party under Saddam Hussein
00:19:18.98\00:19:23.01
gave them legal support
00:19:23.02\00:19:24.17
But again it was not
a system that Christians
00:19:24.18\00:19:26.25
could overly
feel comfortable with,
00:19:26.26\00:19:27.63
but since the invasion,
they're in untenable position
00:19:27.64\00:19:32.06
because we
consciously don't support them,
00:19:32.07\00:19:35.15
if we supported the Christians
00:19:35.16\00:19:36.38
coming in with western
armies not just the U.S
00:19:36.39\00:19:39.25
'cause there's
a collision there,
00:19:39.26\00:19:40.70
but if we supported them,
00:19:40.71\00:19:43.34
that would sort of
under cutout position
00:19:43.35\00:19:45.28
as coming in for democracy
not to support Christians
00:19:45.29\00:19:48.54
So consciously,
we're not supporting them
00:19:48.55\00:19:50.66
as strongly as we might,
00:19:50.67\00:19:52.42
but the Islamic factions
which are fighting each other
00:19:52.43\00:19:55.68
are united in agitating
and harassing Christians now
00:19:55.69\00:19:59.65
And there's great persecution
00:19:59.66\00:20:01.67
and loss of life with Christians
00:20:01.68\00:20:03.69
Many of them are fled
00:20:03.70\00:20:04.67
at least to hundred
thousand in the last year or so.
00:20:04.68\00:20:07.52
And where do they go to?
00:20:07.53\00:20:08.97
Not to the U.S.,
00:20:08.98\00:20:10.87
it's very ironic only
several tens of Iraqi refugees
00:20:10.88\00:20:16.29
been allowed to come into
the U.S since the invasion.
00:20:16.30\00:20:19.57
We seem to have a
policy to not allow them
00:20:19.58\00:20:21.22
but mostly to Western Europe
00:20:21.23\00:20:25.35
It's a difficult situation,
I don't know the answer
00:20:25.36\00:20:27.85
this program
can't suggest an answer
00:20:27.86\00:20:29.98
but I think we, we owe it
to our listeners to point out
00:20:29.99\00:20:33.19
that there is an
aberration in religious practice
00:20:33.20\00:20:38.85
there in Iraq, and as
we read that it's moving,
00:20:38.86\00:20:42.60
you know, in a hodgepodge way
00:20:42.61\00:20:43.79
toward
independence and self allowance,
00:20:43.80\00:20:46.37
that Christians are
actually being decimated
00:20:46.38\00:20:50.27
and actively harassed
and killed and persecuted
00:20:50.28\00:20:53.70
and run out of the
country. That's unbelievable.
00:20:53.71\00:20:56.22
Yeah, it's
interesting, isn't it?
00:20:56.23\00:20:57.38
Well, can two people
believe different things
00:20:57.39\00:20:59.60
in the next door to
each other in peace?
00:20:59.61\00:21:01.92
We would like to think so
00:21:01.93\00:21:02.91
that's the aim of all of us
in religious liberty circles
00:21:02.92\00:21:08.10
and I think that's
the ultimate aim of
00:21:08.11\00:21:11.04
all people of good
faith in the world.
00:21:11.05\00:21:13.39
Well, you know that,
that's hard to achieve
00:21:13.40\00:21:14.67
I'm thinking of Martin Luther
00:21:14.68\00:21:16.88
Now Martin Luther,
00:21:16.89\00:21:18.28
when he brought about a lot
of the Protestant Reformation,
00:21:18.29\00:21:21.00
he didn't
understand religious liberty,
00:21:21.01\00:21:22.50
he thought that if
we disagree with people,
00:21:22.51\00:21:24.26
you ought to do
something about it.
00:21:24.27\00:21:25.72
Well he, not only he didn't
understand religious liberty
00:21:25.73\00:21:27.65
initially I don't think he
understood religious pluralism.
00:21:27.66\00:21:32.51
It's interesting, if you
read the story of Martin Luther.
00:21:32.52\00:21:34.69
He had, he did not
have an initial intention
00:21:34.70\00:21:38.45
of leaving the Catholic Church
00:21:38.46\00:21:41.09
He was in the Catholic Church,
00:21:41.10\00:21:43.21
which was the
church at that time
00:21:43.22\00:21:46.80
He'd studied the Bible
which was a little bit unusual,
00:21:46.81\00:21:51.82
but it was his prerogative
as he was a teacher of theology
00:21:51.83\00:21:55.15
And he studied and he
came to certain conclusions
00:21:55.16\00:21:57.78
that he found inconsistent
with the practice of his church
00:21:57.79\00:22:01.03
He believed that
he could reform it,
00:22:01.04\00:22:03.11
which was the original term
for the Protestant reformers,
00:22:03.12\00:22:05.66
they were reformers,
they were not separationists
00:22:05.67\00:22:08.84
They believed in God's
church, it's not defined by, by,
00:22:08.85\00:22:13.46
you know, having a Pope
or a hierarchy per se but,
00:22:13.47\00:22:16.98
but the Bible is quite
playing when believers in Christ
00:22:16.99\00:22:19.96
gathered together,
they have the church.
00:22:19.97\00:22:22.11
That's why we have the
word Protestant Reformation
00:22:22.12\00:22:24.93
You talk about
reforming the Catholic Church
00:22:24.94\00:22:26.75
and then coming up with another
group called the Protestants.
00:22:26.76\00:22:29.62
Well he didn't come up with
another group, he was rejected
00:22:29.63\00:22:32.92
And this is the great
irony of Martin Luther,
00:22:32.93\00:22:37.00
he put out these thesis
on the door in Wittenberg,
00:22:37.01\00:22:41.20
the church in Wittenberg.
00:22:41.21\00:22:43.97
They were
prepositions, they weren't,
00:22:43.98\00:22:46.47
you know, a
revolutionary marching orders,
00:22:46.48\00:22:50.42
they were just
prepositions for discussion.
00:22:50.43\00:22:52.72
But those
prepositions were circulated
00:22:52.73\00:22:54.64
by the printing press because
it was a happy coincidence
00:22:54.65\00:22:57.06
that the printing
press had just reached
00:22:57.07\00:22:59.64
its critical
point where they were
00:22:59.65\00:23:01.60
now disseminating information.
00:23:01.61\00:23:03.54
Like the Internet is now.
00:23:03.55\00:23:04.68
Right, yes, and suddenly
00:23:04.69\00:23:06.09
the Europe all knew about this.
00:23:06.10\00:23:09.62
And Rome decided that
this sort of rebellion
00:23:09.63\00:23:13.53
as they saw it
couldn't be allowed.
00:23:13.54\00:23:15.15
He was summoned to appear before
00:23:15.16\00:23:17.46
the paper representative
00:23:17.47\00:23:18.78
and the Emperor of
the Holy Roman Empire.
00:23:18.79\00:23:22.37
And the intention was
really to dismiss him,
00:23:22.38\00:23:25.48
because it already
been decide about the Pope
00:23:25.49\00:23:27.03
that he was a heretic
00:23:27.04\00:23:28.64
when he came to the council
of Rome, the Diet of Worms.
00:23:28.65\00:23:32.64
Well, the church had
been doing it the same way
00:23:32.65\00:23:34.03
for so many years, why
would it need to be change?
00:23:34.04\00:23:35.97
That's right, it
was a reflex action
00:23:35.98\00:23:37.89
and we shouldn't, I think
overstate Rome's reaction,
00:23:37.90\00:23:42.39
this was the church
zealous for doctrinal purity.
00:23:42.40\00:23:45.88
While it had many problems
as any human organization did
00:23:45.89\00:23:48.89
and it still had a
certain self-conceit
00:23:48.90\00:23:51.99
that it was the true
custodian of faith in Jesus.
00:23:52.00\00:23:57.14
And here was someone
that differed from them,
00:23:57.15\00:23:58.99
he had to be dealt with for
the security of Christendom.
00:23:59.00\00:24:02.06
But when Martin
Luther appeared there
00:24:02.07\00:24:05.07
and realized that they didn't
want to hear his arguments,
00:24:05.08\00:24:07.63
they were just seeking
for a way to dispose of him.
00:24:07.64\00:24:10.05
Then he stood on his conscience
00:24:10.06\00:24:11.40
and said, I will not recant,
00:24:11.41\00:24:13.83
you know, I can't do any other,
00:24:13.84\00:24:15.91
you know, he said, help me God.
00:24:15.92\00:24:17.05
And then he
enunciated his position,
00:24:17.06\00:24:19.44
he soon enlarged his basic
doctrinal view that we have,
00:24:19.45\00:24:25.15
we can go straight to
God, we don't need a mediator.
00:24:25.16\00:24:27.69
That took on a different cast
00:24:27.70\00:24:29.64
because of really
a social awareness
00:24:29.65\00:24:33.41
that was going through Europe
00:24:33.42\00:24:34.91
that he was a
sovereign individual,
00:24:34.92\00:24:36.49
that he could intelligently
arrive at his own decisions
00:24:36.50\00:24:39.90
in relating to God for himself,
00:24:39.91\00:24:41.78
but intelligence had
to be applied to this.
00:24:41.79\00:24:43.65
So if Luther was so
intelligent about it
00:24:43.66\00:24:45.72
and understood,
he was intelligent
00:24:45.73\00:24:47.04
enough to make a decision,
00:24:47.05\00:24:48.02
I'm sure he recognized
that other people around them
00:24:48.03\00:24:50.60
were intelligent enough to make
00:24:50.61\00:24:52.32
their own
decisions about religion.
00:24:52.33\00:24:55.53
Yes, but I must admit
00:24:55.54\00:24:57.18
and it's an interesting
part of the story of Luther
00:24:57.19\00:25:01.54
and the developing Reformation.
00:25:01.55\00:25:03.40
Martin Luther had a
wonderful understanding
00:25:03.41\00:25:07.11
that kicked it off, but
he was a little immoderate
00:25:07.12\00:25:12.11
in some of his
responses to Rome.
00:25:12.12\00:25:13.80
He quickly accused the
Pope of being Antichrist,
00:25:13.81\00:25:17.08
which I think was even if it
had a slight element of truth
00:25:17.09\00:25:22.20
for biblical prophecy it
was a very crude rude way
00:25:22.21\00:25:24.78
to speak of a religious leader.
00:25:24.79\00:25:28.88
He wrote things on freedom
and as I try to explain that,
00:25:28.89\00:25:32.71
that was a social
movement that sort of linked
00:25:32.72\00:25:34.60
with his
theological understanding.
00:25:34.61\00:25:36.47
But he wrote things that,
00:25:36.48\00:25:37.93
that very quickly
the common people,
00:25:37.94\00:25:39.80
the Serbs saw as an
incitement to rebellion.
00:25:39.81\00:25:45.19
And there was and
throughout Germany,
00:25:45.20\00:25:47.36
a phenomenon of
the peasants rebellion.
00:25:47.37\00:25:49.89
Well let me ask
you this flat out,
00:25:49.90\00:25:51.41
did Martin Luther
respect religious freedom?
00:25:51.42\00:25:56.33
To a slightly greater degree
00:25:56.34\00:25:58.45
than the church that he
was calling upon to change.
00:25:58.46\00:26:03.44
But he was a man of his times
00:26:03.45\00:26:05.55
and no, not to the
same degree that we would,
00:26:05.56\00:26:08.64
we would hope today with our,
00:26:08.65\00:26:09.72
our broad
philosophical understanding
00:26:09.73\00:26:12.51
of religious
liberty that's informed
00:26:12.52\00:26:15.09
as an Adventist
Christian by my Bible study.
00:26:15.10\00:26:17.99
And living in America,
00:26:18.00\00:26:20.72
clearly informed by
our constitutional norms
00:26:20.73\00:26:23.74
that a process of the
historical sorting out.
00:26:23.75\00:26:27.70
Yes, we in
America have inherited
00:26:27.71\00:26:29.18
a rich tradition
of religious freedom.
00:26:29.19\00:26:31.48
A freedom that says, that
I can live next door to you
00:26:31.49\00:26:33.65
and not necessarily
believe the same way you do
00:26:33.66\00:26:36.24
or that you can have
different sets of beliefs
00:26:36.25\00:26:39.12
all together from a
different tradition.
00:26:39.13\00:26:41.98
And as part of
that we can appreciate
00:26:41.99\00:26:44.01
each others religious diversity
00:26:44.02\00:26:45.74
and move forward
together as a society,
00:26:45.75\00:26:48.07
recognizing that our faith
has made us through we are.
00:26:48.08\00:26:50.74
Any discussion of Rome,
00:26:51.93\00:26:53.54
the so called Eternal
City evokes quite a few images.
00:26:53.55\00:26:57.73
I remember years
ago reading a poem,
00:26:57.74\00:27:00.00
a long poem by George Gordon
Lord Byron called Manfred,
00:27:00.01\00:27:04.69
where the
protagonist in that poem
00:27:04.70\00:27:07.52
rhapsodizes a great length
00:27:07.53\00:27:09.27
about the
glories of ancient Rome.
00:27:09.28\00:27:11.86
And he says, "He was
there in the evening,"
00:27:11.87\00:27:13.93
as I remember a
couple of months ago
00:27:13.94\00:27:15.39
I was there and he
saw the sun setting
00:27:15.40\00:27:17.41
on the Colosseum and
the symbols of Caesars.
00:27:17.42\00:27:20.70
And he said, until
the place became religion,
00:27:20.71\00:27:24.97
it's easy going to
these great centers
00:27:24.98\00:27:27.72
like the city of Rome to
think that it is religion.
00:27:27.73\00:27:30.77
But in reality this is
just a manufacture of man,
00:27:30.78\00:27:34.79
these are the palaces of
worship that man has erected,
00:27:34.80\00:27:38.41
we must never lose sight
that there's a God behind it
00:27:38.42\00:27:41.77
and a God that wants to
reach out to us individually.
00:27:41.78\00:27:44.92
The reformers, Martin Luther
and others that followed him,
00:27:44.93\00:27:48.03
they understood that clearly.
00:27:48.04\00:27:49.71
That we stand
individual before God,
00:27:49.72\00:27:52.22
we don't need cathedrals,
we don't need grand edifices,
00:27:52.23\00:27:55.11
we need a clear conscience
00:27:55.12\00:27:56.67
and a readiness to
contact the Almighty.
00:27:56.68\00:27:59.30
That's a promise
that we can each claim,
00:27:59.31\00:28:01.95
it's our religious liberty.
00:28:01.96\00:28:06.24
This is Lincoln
Steed, for Liberty Insider.
00:28:06.25\00:28:09.72