Welcome to Liberty Insider.
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This is the
program where we talk about
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current religious liberty issues
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that are facing you.
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My name is Michael Peabody,
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I'm an attorney
and with me today is.
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Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine.
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Michael, I'd like to
talk with you about something
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that's really concerned
me for a few months now.
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We live in an interesting era,
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where we see riots
and wars and calamities
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but among all of
those other things,
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the growing divided between
Islam and Christianity. Right.
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I think it's
preoccupying the world
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in it plays itself
out in different ways.
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Back on November 12th
of last year 1980--2006.
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I'm in another
century, 2006 the Pope of Rome,
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Pope Benedict gave a
very interesting speech
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at Regensburg, Germany.
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Did you hear a
little about that speech?
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I heard about that speech.
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And I'm sure you read
some of the news reports
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of what happened as
a result of it, right?
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Yeah, some big events
happened as a result, riots.
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They were riots and the
Pope was burned in effigy
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and some in Muslim countries.
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In the Middle East,
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there was a lot of
discussion about it.
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And actually I
remember a few weeks after that
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in December when I was in Rome,
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I watched on television there.
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And practically
every channel was covering
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the Pope's visit to Turkey.
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And he spent a lot of his time
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trying to mend bridges
after that, that speech.
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And the mending of
bridges was phenomenal.
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He met with not only
the civil leaders there,
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but religious
leaders of Islam and Turkey.
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And at the end of
it all, he bowed down
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and prayed facing towards Mecca.
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But what did the Pope say that,
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that caused all this?
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Well, that's the
interesting thing,
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in some ways it had
very little to do with Islam.
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And as I read the news reports,
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it was curious to me to find out
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that very few of the Islam--
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Of the Muslim clerics
that reacted negatively
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and incited many of
their fellows to violence.
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Very few of them
that who had read
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or heard the speech,
they acknowledged that freely.
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That they were just bothered
by his opening illustration.
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What was his illustration?
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Well, he gave a conversation
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that took place
hundreds of years ago
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between a Byzantine emperor,
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I think his name was Pelagius,
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and a Persian nobleman,
probably who was part of
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encircling Muslim force
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that was laying
siege to Constantinople,
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the capital of
the Western Empire,
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and the seat of
western Christianity.
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So he was a conflict between
Christianity in its early,
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its earlier days and
Islam in its very early days.
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And they got to discussing
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and the emperor said
something very interesting
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that the Pope
repeated just verbatim.
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On the Vatican website,
there is a copy of the speech
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and it's edited a
little differently
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than the Pope
actually presented it.
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On the website it says, he gave,
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he gives a disclaimer and says,
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I don't myself agree with this.
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But in the speech
he didn't say that.
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And the emperor said,
speaking about basically
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within assumption that both
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Islam and Christianity
worship the same God.
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And he said, tell me
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what Muhammad
brought to religion
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that was new
other than violence.
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Now you know the whole
world blows up with that.
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But I think that
the evidence is strong,
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the Pope just put
that in as a starting point
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presuming that
since we have violent
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extremist Islamic views around,
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not necessarily all
of Islam but you know.
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So when the Pope said
that it led to violence.
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Yes, and there's a
certain, certainly irony that
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if you object your
religion being called violent
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would you go out and
commit a violent act,
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that sort of proves the point.
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But I don't think
that's what was going on,
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that's what
Islam got upset about.
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But the Pope used that
as a jumping off point,
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violence in religion,
we know that there is--
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violence in religion.
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It's not just Islam, I
can make a fairly good case
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that historically
Islam advanced through,
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through military
conquest, perhaps in some ways
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more than other religion
certainly than Christianity.
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Not that Christianity
has been above violence,
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"Story Of The Middle
Ages" will tell you that.
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Our religion has been violent
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for many, many
years going way back--
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Secular states do
well, they will be cautious
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about unrestrained
fanatical religious expression,
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it can easily turn violent.
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But the Pope then
using that assumption,
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then he made a model of
Christianity under Rome,
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that's rather interesting.
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He said that yes, religion
has this violent propensity.
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He hinted the Christianity
and Old Testament Judaism
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had a violence streak.
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But he said and at great length
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that Christianity is now
protected against violence
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because it has taken
upon itself an overly of Greek
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and even mentions
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Roman philosophical
understanding, Greek logic.
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And with this
Greek logical overlay,
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we don't act viscerally
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or take the text
to a violent limit
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regardless of
what the externals are
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and regardless of
the logic of caring
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for our fellows and so on.
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Oh, you know, looking back
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at the history
of the last century
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you remember,
obviously scientific progress
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and logic haven't led
to much fighting has it?
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Well, you know, we
get into other things
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but let's keep it
to, to the speech.
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He made a model of
ChristianityéCatholicism
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that I think is
easily disproven.
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But because it was
precisely at the point
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that
Christianity took upon itself
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the overlordship and
the alliance with Rome,
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the Roman Empire,
that it became violent.
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Up until Constantine's era
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Christianity had
zero violence streak.
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In fact there was a
verse, remember the,
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the rulers of
pagan Rome were amazed
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that Christians would go
so passively to the lions.
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They didn't resist at
all, there was no violence,
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I'm sure there was some
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backroom fighting over doctrine,
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but there was no violence.
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Once the Christian church
became allied with the state,
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then it took on
politio religious goals
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and we saw wars of religion.
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And then later
on the reformation,
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there was violent,
violence against reformers
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and when the reformation
had gained some currency,
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there was even some
violence between the reform
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or reformation groups
and the Catholic Church
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in the kind of reformation.
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But not in the early days,
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so I think it's a suspect model.
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But let's take his model,
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the Greek logic has
protected Christianity
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against this violent propensity
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and it's a safe
logical rational center.
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Then he goes on,
and this is really
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the whole point of his talk,
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to give three
major attacks on this,
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this logical Greek
center and he calls them
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three attempts of
dehellenizing Christianity.
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What an interesting phase. Yes.
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Because that's often
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an negative attack
on Christianity that
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it might have
become Hellenistic.
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And what does Hellenistic mean?
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Relating to Greek
philosophy or Greek views.
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And superficially
you can get some of that
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out of the New Testament,
Paul definitely was speaking
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in the logic of Greek culture.
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And even, even his references
to Greek poets and so on,
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it shows that it
was in that context.
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But to say that,
that superimposed
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or replaced Christ or theology
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and Old Testament norms
as a quite a different thing.
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But the three attacks
that the Pope put forward
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as undermining
the safe, nonviolent,
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logical Hellenistic
center of the following
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in reverse order.
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His last one I think all people
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of moral
sensibility can agree with them,
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we already know
that he hold this.
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Secular humanism.
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Clearly that's,
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that's not a violent
threat to Christianity
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but a necessity it
takes away Christian faith,
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it's antagonist
to faith commitments.
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And you can
make a good argument,
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this is made in this
country by the religious right,
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that it eviscerates
our public morality.
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The second one is
rather an esoteric
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one that philosophical
theological attacks
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came along where they took away
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the divine
element from religion.
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And in particular,
that even says this,
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that they said that maybe
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we wouldn't insist on
the divinity of Jesus Christ,
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we just be seen
as a philosopher,
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saint sort of thing.
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But the first one is the one
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that I think is almost
malicious, very dangerous
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and will have deep ramifications
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in the future is what he shared.
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He said, the reformers,
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now he's talking about
some Protestant reformers.
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By their
insistence on Sola scriptura
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removed Christianity from
this logical Greek overlay
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and put it straight
back into this visceral,
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he doesn't use the word visceral
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but he says
asserting that he puts us back
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in this visceral
insistence on the word itself
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which is what we see
with Islam and so on.
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Where, you know, the Quran
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and you can go often on a Jihad.
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He's insinuating by the
whole construct of the speech
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that Protestantism is inclined
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to the same
illogical violence streak.
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Now that is just amazing to me.
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That is very interesting,
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because with a Greek foundation,
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where is the room
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for Christianity
in that construct?
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Well, he takes it further,
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he tries to show
in the Old Testament
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that while
historically it's not so,
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but he tries to connect
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this the Greek concept of
reality and of nonviolence,
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you know, being
remember because,
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you know, a Greek philosophy
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had a lot to do
with what is reality.
00:11:14.92\00:11:16.82
And he projects that
back even to the burning bush
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in the "I Am" of
the Old Testament,
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that's consistent
with Greek philosophy.
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That's hardly been done before,
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but as I said before to,
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to marginalize Protestants
as more inclined to violence
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because they're
insisting on the Bible only
00:11:34.32\00:11:37.74
is a very
interesting development
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and, you know, where
that takes us back to, right?
00:11:40.21\00:11:42.45
Well, it sounds
like that's leading us
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back to the dynamic
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that led to the
reformation in the first place.
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That's what I think.
00:11:47.61\00:11:49.23
Of course, we're
well past the reformation,
00:11:49.24\00:11:51.19
we're past the Pope
arriving in the United States,
00:11:51.20\00:11:53.46
kissing the ground
00:11:53.47\00:11:54.50
and headline saying
the reformation is over.
00:11:54.51\00:11:56.87
I don't think this will alienate
00:11:56.88\00:11:58.45
Protestants in the same way
00:11:58.46\00:11:59.68
that the speech offended Islam.
00:11:59.69\00:12:01.99
I think what it will tend
to do is chase Protestant,
00:12:02.00\00:12:05.67
independent Protestant thought
into now this correlation,
00:12:05.68\00:12:08.96
the safe correlation
00:12:08.97\00:12:10.68
that's represent
by Roman Catholicism
00:12:10.69\00:12:12.57
and its insistence that
logic not the word of God
00:12:12.58\00:12:16.90
alone determines the nature
of this Christian correlation.
00:12:16.91\00:12:21.94
And you know that might
be good for governments,
00:12:21.95\00:12:24.10
because
governments want security,
00:12:24.11\00:12:25.52
they want
religion to be compliant.
00:12:25.53\00:12:28.43
But it's a great
danger for truth.
00:12:28.44\00:12:31.22
And Protestants rightly
I think pointed out that
00:12:31.23\00:12:34.86
Rome in the Middle Ages
and in large to greater days
00:12:34.87\00:12:37.69
still gives an
inordinate attention
00:12:37.70\00:12:41.28
to the innate authority of
the magisterium of the church
00:12:41.29\00:12:45.06
rather than the word of God.
00:12:45.07\00:12:47.13
And we must insist on that,
00:12:47.14\00:12:49.10
that's the
Protestant imperative,
00:12:49.11\00:12:51.30
the Protestant imperative is to
00:12:51.31\00:12:53.02
insist on God's
word, Sola Scriptura.
00:12:53.03\00:12:56.43
One-hundred years, a
long time to do anything,
00:13:07.25\00:13:11.15
much less publish a
magazine, but this year Liberty,
00:13:11.16\00:13:15.04
the Seventh-day Adventist
voice of religious freedom,
00:13:15.05\00:13:17.59
celebrates one hundred years
of doing what it does best,
00:13:17.60\00:13:21.39
collecting,
analyzing, and reporting the ebb
00:13:21.40\00:13:24.40
and flow of religious
expression around the world.
00:13:24.41\00:13:27.55
Issue after issue,
00:13:27.56\00:13:29.31
Liberty has taken on
the tough assignments,
00:13:29.32\00:13:31.70
tracking down
threats to religious freedom
00:13:31.71\00:13:33.71
and exposing the
work of the devil
00:13:33.72\00:13:35.28
in every corner of the globe.
00:13:35.29\00:13:37.48
Governmental
interference, personal attacks,
00:13:37.49\00:13:40.32
corporate assaults,
even religious freedom issues
00:13:40.33\00:13:43.06
sequestered within
the Church community
00:13:43.07\00:13:44.57
itself have been
clearly and honestly exposed.
00:13:44.58\00:13:48.22
Liberty exists for one purpose
00:13:48.23\00:13:50.54
to help God's people
maintain that all important
00:13:50.55\00:13:53.65
separation of Church and State,
00:13:53.66\00:13:55.72
while recognizing the dangers
inherent in such a struggle.
00:13:55.73\00:13:59.69
During the past century,
00:13:59.70\00:14:00.99
Liberty has experienced
challenges of its own,
00:14:01.00\00:14:03.51
but it remains on the job.
00:14:03.52\00:14:05.77
Thanks to the
inspired leadership
00:14:05.78\00:14:07.46
of a long line of
dedicated Adventist Editors,
00:14:07.47\00:14:10.10
three of whom represent almost
00:14:10.11\00:14:11.43
half of the publications
existence and the foresight
00:14:11.44\00:14:14.50
of a little
woman from New England.
00:14:14.51\00:14:16.87
One hundred years of struggle,
00:14:16.88\00:14:18.97
one hundred years of victories,
00:14:18.98\00:14:21.21
religious freedom isn't
just about political machines
00:14:21.22\00:14:24.21
and cultural prejudices.
00:14:24.22\00:14:25.93
It's about people fighting
for the right to serve the God
00:14:25.94\00:14:30.03
they love as their hearts
and the Holy Spirit dictate.
00:14:30.04\00:14:34.14
Thanks to the
prayers and generous support
00:14:34.15\00:14:36.18
of Seventh-day
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00:14:36.19\00:14:38.58
Liberty will continue
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00:14:38.59\00:14:40.99
of providing timely information,
00:14:41.00\00:14:42.77
spirit filled
inspiration, and heaven
00:14:42.78\00:14:44.95
sent encouragement
to all who long to live
00:14:44.96\00:14:48.15
and work in a
world bound together
00:14:48.16\00:14:50.85
by the God ordained
bonds of religious freedom.
00:14:50.86\00:14:56.44
Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
00:15:05.84\00:15:08.83
Thank you for
joining this program.
00:15:08.84\00:15:10.16
Before the break,
we were talking about
00:15:10.17\00:15:11.94
the Pope's speech
in Regensburg, Germany.
00:15:11.95\00:15:14.81
And I know I
carried on quite a bit,
00:15:14.82\00:15:17.69
moving it away
from what most people
00:15:17.70\00:15:19.93
around the world saw
as an attack on Islam
00:15:19.94\00:15:23.32
and perhaps violent propensity.
00:15:23.33\00:15:25.48
But what I see in
studying the text of it
00:15:25.49\00:15:27.99
as more of a
defensive Catholicism
00:15:28.00\00:15:32.36
and an explanation as to how
00:15:32.37\00:15:35.05
it has a logical
Greek philosophical overlay.
00:15:35.06\00:15:40.40
What did you think about
what I shared on that, Mike?
00:15:40.41\00:15:43.73
Well, that was very interesting.
00:15:43.74\00:15:44.77
I honestly
hadn't seen the speech,
00:15:44.78\00:15:47.17
all I heard about was the
part that led to the violence.
00:15:47.18\00:15:50.32
And obviously it's
the Pope's prerogative
00:15:50.33\00:15:51.99
to defend
Catholicism. Oh, of course.
00:15:52.00\00:15:55.49
And I hope our
viewers understand that.
00:15:55.50\00:15:57.18
You know, we're not
attacking any religion per se,
00:15:57.19\00:16:00.31
this is not the
role of this program.
00:16:00.32\00:16:04.08
But I do believe
00:16:04.09\00:16:05.99
as Seventh-day
Adventist Christian Protestant,
00:16:06.00\00:16:09.21
it's important to
remind our viewers
00:16:09.22\00:16:11.52
of the issues that
inform Protestantism
00:16:11.53\00:16:14.29
and led to that
divide within Christendom,
00:16:14.30\00:16:18.31
not the first
divide, the first was between
00:16:18.32\00:16:20.04
the Roman Catholic
Church, the Western Church,
00:16:20.05\00:16:23.59
and the Eastern
Church in Constantinople.
00:16:23.60\00:16:25.50
And this is interesting
that the Pope would chosed
00:16:25.51\00:16:27.82
to use an example
00:16:27.83\00:16:29.80
of a Byzantine
Eastern Christian emperor,
00:16:29.81\00:16:33.32
and dialoging
with the Roman Catholic
00:16:33.33\00:16:35.39
with an Iranian attacker
00:16:35.40\00:16:39.81
when the Muslims were
coming against the city.
00:16:39.82\00:16:43.04
Now, let me give you
just a few illustrations
00:16:43.05\00:16:46.06
of the symbolism that
was inherent in the speech.
00:16:46.07\00:16:49.34
As I said, this
the Eastern Church
00:16:49.35\00:16:51.89
and it was only a few years ago
00:16:51.90\00:16:53.29
that now deceased
Pope John Paul II,
00:16:53.30\00:16:56.92
in an attempt to carry favor
00:16:56.93\00:17:00.59
and reconcile with the
Eastern Orthodox Church
00:17:00.60\00:17:03.23
apologized for the
sake of Constantinople.
00:17:03.24\00:17:06.38
Which was a
crusade that Rome hijacked,
00:17:06.39\00:17:10.11
if you like, and sent them off
00:17:10.12\00:17:11.29
to attack Constantinople.
00:17:11.30\00:17:12.73
They intended to
go to the Middle East.
00:17:12.74\00:17:16.08
It's significant that
the Pope gave this speech
00:17:16.09\00:17:19.25
on September 12, the
day after the September 11
00:17:19.26\00:17:22.33
and I-- when I say
that, that he's accusing
00:17:22.34\00:17:26.48
Protestants of
moving Christianity
00:17:26.49\00:17:28.97
away from a safe,
rational, nonviolent center.
00:17:28.98\00:17:32.37
I think the
subtext of what he's saying
00:17:32.38\00:17:34.30
and the rest of the world
would probably understand it,
00:17:34.31\00:17:36.72
it was a bit of a side
swap at Protestant America
00:17:36.73\00:17:39.84
for its violent
expeditions according to me.
00:17:39.85\00:17:42.96
It sound like a concerned about
00:17:42.97\00:17:44.27
fundamentalism in general.
00:17:44.28\00:17:46.23
Right, yes, oh yes.
00:17:46.24\00:17:47.54
Well, that's how the
United States is seen,
00:17:47.55\00:17:49.71
as a
fundamentalist Protestant state.
00:17:49.72\00:17:52.13
Then to give that
speech in Regensburg, Germany,
00:17:52.14\00:17:57.60
the Pope grow up in that area,
00:17:57.61\00:17:59.09
he was the first
professor of religion
00:17:59.10\00:18:02.37
at the University of Regensburg.
00:18:02.38\00:18:04.01
Which was only founded
a couple of decades ago.
00:18:04.02\00:18:06.36
But Regensburg was
one of the main centers
00:18:06.37\00:18:10.09
in the Holy Roman Empire
where the diets were held,
00:18:10.10\00:18:13.12
the counsels,
remember the Diet of Worms
00:18:13.13\00:18:16.37
where Martin Luther kicked off
00:18:16.38\00:18:17.78
the Reformation was a very
00:18:17.79\00:18:21.11
interesting point in Regensburg.
00:18:21.12\00:18:23.26
So is an actual meaning it
was not a weight loss program.
00:18:23.27\00:18:26.26
No, that wasn't
a diet, it was a,
00:18:26.27\00:18:27.70
the diet was a
name of the meeting.
00:18:27.71\00:18:30.13
I know a lot of people,
you know, one of the ways
00:18:30.14\00:18:31.80
get confused about that.
00:18:31.81\00:18:32.85
And Regensburg itself
is one of those centers
00:18:32.86\00:18:36.98
for the meetings of
the Holy Roman Empire
00:18:36.99\00:18:39.49
had an interesting role.
00:18:39.50\00:18:42.38
It simultaneously was a
strong Protestant center
00:18:42.39\00:18:47.20
and one of the
main points-- places
00:18:47.21\00:18:49.74
where the counter-reformation
was kicked off.
00:18:49.75\00:18:52.97
So it's just full of
significance at that place
00:18:52.98\00:18:57.65
and on that time
and on that topic
00:18:57.66\00:19:00.94
the Pope would
give such a speech.
00:19:00.95\00:19:03.13
I think you're
right, he has every right.
00:19:03.14\00:19:05.36
We can't question his
right, he is the legitimate
00:19:05.37\00:19:07.89
head of his
religious organization.
00:19:07.90\00:19:11.71
But just as Islam
thought that it was improper
00:19:11.72\00:19:16.33
for him to malign their,
00:19:16.34\00:19:19.18
you know, the
violence of their religion.
00:19:19.19\00:19:20.97
I think it's
certainly destabilizing
00:19:20.98\00:19:23.70
and at the very least,
00:19:23.71\00:19:24.73
perhaps a little irresponsible
00:19:24.74\00:19:26.67
for him to imply,
let's just say it's implied,
00:19:26.68\00:19:30.70
rather than to say directly.
00:19:30.71\00:19:32.17
That the Protestantism
could be as violent
00:19:32.18\00:19:35.35
a threat as Islam.
00:19:35.36\00:19:37.54
So we could have theoretically
00:19:37.55\00:19:38.90
had a Protestant response
like the Islamic response.
00:19:38.91\00:19:43.05
We should have except
that Protestants are very--
00:19:43.06\00:19:46.38
Now we don't run,
I think Protestantism
00:19:46.39\00:19:49.32
is in its last
throws to be honest.
00:19:49.33\00:19:52.54
I'm not so sure
that the Protestants
00:19:52.55\00:19:54.82
generally are aware of
why they are Protestant
00:19:54.83\00:19:58.25
and not Catholic.
00:19:58.26\00:20:00.06
I mean, we know the
different religious loyalties
00:20:00.07\00:20:02.34
and correlations in our society
00:20:02.35\00:20:04.98
but what they represent
I'm not sure many people know.
00:20:04.99\00:20:07.69
How many people
can give the doctrinal
00:20:07.70\00:20:09.29
differences between
Methodists and Baptists say
00:20:09.30\00:20:13.56
much less between
Catholics and Protestants.
00:20:13.57\00:20:18.19
So I think that,
that awareness is fading
00:20:18.20\00:20:20.55
historically and the
Roman Catholic Church,
00:20:20.56\00:20:24.05
which certainly maintains that
00:20:24.06\00:20:25.58
it's the preeminent
Christian Organization
00:20:25.59\00:20:28.48
and doesn't
recognize the others as valid.
00:20:28.49\00:20:31.43
By positing this I
think the intention
00:20:31.44\00:20:33.26
is to not to alienate
them but to chase them back
00:20:33.27\00:20:36.54
or to herd them back
into the safe Catholic Center.
00:20:36.55\00:20:42.63
But maybe let's take his
discussion a little further,
00:20:42.64\00:20:46.28
maybe we won't
believe that anymore
00:20:46.29\00:20:48.55
I think it's worth remarking
00:20:48.56\00:20:50.47
that this incendiary
speech was incendiary,
00:20:50.48\00:20:53.70
but not for the
reason that people think.
00:20:53.71\00:20:56.69
But going back to
Islam, that's something that
00:20:56.70\00:20:59.41
that I think we need to
share again on this program.
00:20:59.42\00:21:01.99
A lot of people
don't understand it
00:21:02.00\00:21:03.64
and I'm not sure
00:21:03.65\00:21:04.64
our government
even truly understands.
00:21:04.65\00:21:08.05
There is a principle
that Liberty Magazine
00:21:08.06\00:21:09.88
has always been
promoting as bedrock
00:21:09.89\00:21:13.35
on our understanding
of religious liberty.
00:21:13.36\00:21:15.55
We did a program
recently pointing out that
00:21:15.56\00:21:18.16
we have to present Jesus Christ.
00:21:18.17\00:21:19.92
Right. He is the center.
00:21:19.93\00:21:21.27
But as far as a construct on how
00:21:21.28\00:21:23.60
we administered
religious liberty,
00:21:23.61\00:21:26.41
Liberty Magazine when
it was began was dedicated
00:21:26.42\00:21:29.00
to the principle
of the separation
00:21:29.01\00:21:30.70
of church and state.
00:21:30.71\00:21:32.53
I mean, same
principle that our constitution
00:21:32.54\00:21:35.39
in the United
States is promised on,
00:21:35.40\00:21:37.13
isn't it? Absolutely.
00:21:37.14\00:21:40.46
In the First
Amendment especially. Right.
00:21:40.47\00:21:42.48
So it's not just a nice idea,
00:21:42.49\00:21:45.06
it's central in our
society as to how we,
00:21:45.07\00:21:49.45
we regard other religions,
00:21:49.46\00:21:51.81
how they're enabled to practice,
00:21:51.82\00:21:53.73
with restraints, prejudice
00:21:53.74\00:21:55.36
at least on a governmental level
00:21:55.37\00:21:56.99
and is a safe, as safe
away in a secular environment
00:21:57.00\00:22:03.48
to enable religious practices
as ever been devised on it.
00:22:03.49\00:22:06.76
You know, it's open to
the free market of ideas.
00:22:06.77\00:22:08.33
It's easy to show
that it's a biblical view,
00:22:08.34\00:22:11.45
Jesus doesn't compel
in the Garden of Eden.
00:22:11.46\00:22:15.52
God didn't compel
Adam and Eve to obedience.
00:22:15.53\00:22:18.65
There were some punishments,
there were consequences
00:22:18.66\00:22:21.04
but there was no compulsion,
00:22:21.05\00:22:22.84
which is interesting
going back to the Pope's speech.
00:22:22.85\00:22:26.00
He did allude to the
fact that Muhammad has said
00:22:26.01\00:22:28.62
no compulsion in religion,
which sometime seems undercut
00:22:28.63\00:22:33.04
way of the statements
but Islam accepted that view.
00:22:33.05\00:22:36.16
But the separation
of church and state
00:22:36.17\00:22:38.35
I believe is not only pivotal
00:22:38.36\00:22:41.50
and has a long
history in the United States
00:22:41.51\00:22:44.73
and indeed the
English speaking world.
00:22:44.74\00:22:46.82
We need to understand that
00:22:46.83\00:22:48.07
it's an it's-- well
I was gonna use a word
00:22:48.08\00:22:50.71
that's a Catholic
word, but it's descriptive.
00:22:50.72\00:22:53.29
The separation
of church and state
00:22:53.30\00:22:54.98
is an anathema to Islam.
00:22:54.99\00:22:58.26
It is not just
that they don't like it,
00:22:58.27\00:23:01.00
it's unacceptable in
what Muhammad presented
00:23:01.01\00:23:06.81
in the whole construct of Islam,
00:23:06.82\00:23:08.43
there is no distinction
between church and state,
00:23:08.44\00:23:11.43
they're one and the same.
00:23:11.44\00:23:14.15
Let me just take it
here from view pointing on,
00:23:14.16\00:23:16.56
let's say that there is often,
00:23:16.57\00:23:19.47
as a scenario given
away if you know somebody
00:23:19.48\00:23:21.04
is going toward Niagara Falls
00:23:21.05\00:23:22.31
and they're going to fall over
00:23:22.32\00:23:23.81
and they don't know that yet.
00:23:23.82\00:23:25.40
They used to call to warn them.
00:23:25.41\00:23:28.20
Well, wouldn't it be
incumbent upon the state
00:23:28.21\00:23:30.10
at some point actually reach out
00:23:30.11\00:23:31.41
and physically stop them
from going over the falls?
00:23:31.42\00:23:35.19
If a person is headed,
00:23:35.20\00:23:36.65
you know, in the
negative direction spiritually
00:23:36.66\00:23:39.86
and they don't
listen to a calling,
00:23:39.87\00:23:43.44
wouldn't it be
the place of the state
00:23:43.45\00:23:44.59
actually stop them from
heading over that cliff?
00:23:44.60\00:23:47.85
I'd agree with your point
but I don't think spiritually,
00:23:47.86\00:23:49.51
it's not for the state
00:23:49.52\00:23:50.49
to make judgments
on spiritual matters.
00:23:50.50\00:23:52.68
Obviously, if
the state had noticed
00:23:52.69\00:23:58.05
because it
happened in another country
00:23:58.06\00:23:59.62
but if authorities had noticed
00:23:59.63\00:24:02.12
that Jim Jones was about to,
00:24:02.13\00:24:05.21
to give his
followers a bad kool-aid party.
00:24:05.22\00:24:09.62
They should have stopped it
00:24:09.63\00:24:10.66
I think anyone would know that,
00:24:10.67\00:24:12.53
but that's not
their spiritual state,
00:24:12.54\00:24:14.67
that was physically
harming other people.
00:24:14.68\00:24:18.49
And there, of
course there are laws.
00:24:18.50\00:24:20.35
There is a law you know that,
00:24:20.36\00:24:21.33
there's laws of
behavior in society
00:24:21.34\00:24:23.74
that are really not religious,
00:24:23.75\00:24:26.21
they go beyond
religion and religion
00:24:26.22\00:24:28.44
and its practice
operates within that context.
00:24:28.45\00:24:31.37
But that's not
restricting religion,
00:24:31.38\00:24:33.06
that's restricting
harm to other people
00:24:33.07\00:24:35.39
within the normal criminal laws
00:24:35.40\00:24:38.35
and laws
governing human behavior.
00:24:38.36\00:24:40.75
But no, I don't think
the state should step in
00:24:40.76\00:24:42.95
and stop a religion
just because it appears crazy
00:24:42.96\00:24:46.12
and it appears to be leading
to flights of spiritual fancy.
00:24:46.13\00:24:51.51
No, but what I
want to talk about
00:24:51.52\00:24:54.52
in the last couple of
minutes that we've got here,
00:24:54.53\00:24:56.61
is just to reiterate
for people's understanding.
00:24:56.62\00:24:59.20
Islam does not accept,
it's no attack on Muslims,
00:24:59.21\00:25:05.51
in fact I think most of
them that know the Quran
00:25:05.52\00:25:08.42
do agree with or would agree.
00:25:08.43\00:25:10.71
And going back to what
I said in another program,
00:25:10.72\00:25:12.93
about my father dying last year.
00:25:12.94\00:25:15.95
He was reminiscing a
lot about his dealings
00:25:15.96\00:25:18.48
as a church leader
and drug and alcohol
00:25:18.49\00:25:20.66
awareness with Muslim leaders.
00:25:20.67\00:25:23.45
And I remember he told me
and I remember on one occasion
00:25:23.46\00:25:27.20
they were discussing to have
a program in the Middle East.
00:25:27.21\00:25:29.96
And we wonder
whether it was possible
00:25:29.97\00:25:31.80
and one of the
minister's, government ministers
00:25:31.81\00:25:34.08
from one of those
countries laughed and he said,
00:25:34.09\00:25:35.97
there is no such thing
as a separation of church
00:25:35.98\00:25:38.70
and state in our
country, we don't believe in it.
00:25:38.71\00:25:42.55
And I read an
editorial following that
00:25:42.56\00:25:44.48
my cold at the fatal flaw.
00:25:44.49\00:25:46.89
And I do believe it's
the fatal flaw of Islam
00:25:46.90\00:25:49.78
on the construct that we
buy of separation of church
00:25:49.79\00:25:52.34
and state and of
religious freedom of all people,
00:25:52.35\00:25:55.92
they don't accept that.
00:25:55.93\00:25:57.55
Well, it's okay.
Cannot accept it.
00:25:57.56\00:25:59.16
If, you know, it
happens to be your religion
00:25:59.17\00:26:01.56
that's the state religion
00:26:01.57\00:26:02.89
it works out
pretty well for you.
00:26:02.90\00:26:04.51
No, but it's more
than the state religion
00:26:04.52\00:26:06.17
because Islam is an
all embracing thing.
00:26:06.18\00:26:09.43
Christianity really is to be
all embracing for the person.
00:26:09.44\00:26:13.38
My faith should inform
all activities of my life,
00:26:13.39\00:26:16.26
but that's a
different thing from saying
00:26:16.27\00:26:18.35
that the government should be
00:26:18.36\00:26:20.21
dispensing religious orthodoxy.
00:26:20.22\00:26:24.05
You know, that's a
very important distinction
00:26:24.06\00:26:25.82
you made, Lincoln.
00:26:25.83\00:26:27.22
Yes, I think so,
we need to be careful
00:26:27.23\00:26:29.69
of this distinction between
actions of the individual
00:26:29.70\00:26:32.41
that are all
embracing because of their faith
00:26:32.42\00:26:34.24
and the state being included.
00:26:34.25\00:26:36.39
It has no path
there, Jesus said,
00:26:36.40\00:26:38.83
"My kingdom is
not of this world.
00:26:38.84\00:26:40.85
If it were my
followers would fight with me."
00:26:40.86\00:26:44.06
We should be fighting
to borrow a term the Jihad
00:26:44.07\00:26:48.26
of internal spirituality
and not allowing the state
00:26:48.27\00:26:51.67
any state to be part of that.
00:26:51.68\00:26:54.21
Religion is powerful
and it's a large part
00:26:54.22\00:26:56.40
of what makes us human.
00:26:56.41\00:26:57.86
People get very
passionate about religion
00:26:57.87\00:26:59.95
because they see the
world through their faith.
00:26:59.96\00:27:02.08
Faith provides a
road map for your life,
00:27:02.09\00:27:04.10
your family, career,
finances, helps and dreams
00:27:04.11\00:27:06.57
all in some way have
a connection with faith.
00:27:06.58\00:27:09.48
Because your faith is
so intense and so personal,
00:27:09.49\00:27:12.42
it can sometimes
be hard to understand.
00:27:12.43\00:27:14.23
Now somebody else can
believe differently than you do.
00:27:14.24\00:27:16.94
Living together in a
society with other people
00:27:16.95\00:27:19.49
who have different
faiths is not always easy,
00:27:19.50\00:27:21.81
in fact it can
be very difficult.
00:27:21.82\00:27:23.84
After all with so many
different views on life,
00:27:23.85\00:27:26.13
somebody has to be right
and some has to be wrong.
00:27:26.14\00:27:29.15
Some people turn their
faith into a battle fight
00:27:29.16\00:27:31.22
when they disagree with others
00:27:31.23\00:27:32.39
to see the world differently.
00:27:32.40\00:27:33.88
While it is okay to
disagree, it can become tragic
00:27:33.89\00:27:36.77
when disagreements about faith
turn into acts of violence.
00:27:36.78\00:27:39.91
In fact, history is full of wars
00:27:39.92\00:27:41.55
started when two or more
groups disagreed about God.
00:27:41.56\00:27:44.26
We live in a world
full of different people
00:27:44.27\00:27:46.46
with different
faith and traditions.
00:27:46.47\00:27:48.21
We can recognize not
of the faith of others
00:27:48.22\00:27:50.52
without
compromising our own faith.
00:27:50.53\00:27:52.55
When we do this as Christians,
we lift up Jesus Christ
00:27:52.56\00:27:55.11
who gave us the freedom to
either choose or reject Him.
00:27:55.12\00:27:57.86
We have a great
commission to share the gospel,
00:27:57.87\00:27:59.87
but we also have
a mandate to share
00:27:59.88\00:28:01.62
God's gift of freedom.
00:28:01.63\00:28:03.14
This is the heart of our liberty
00:28:03.15\00:28:04.74
and the heart of the gospel.
00:28:04.75\00:28:06.77
For Liberty
Insider, I'm Michael Peabody.
00:28:06.78\00:28:10.48