Welcome to The Liberty Insider,
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this is the
program that brings you
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the very latest up
to date information
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and view points on
religious liberty issues.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine
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and with me today is my friend.
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Michael Peabody
with North American
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Religious Liberty
Association, west.
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Michael, let's
talk a little bit.
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We've had many
programs before about
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some of the legal
and historical aspects of
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why we have our
religious liberty position.
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But I must tell
you, lately I've given
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a lot of thought to restating
some of the baseline reasons
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why Christians and particularly
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Seventh-day
Adventists would have an
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interest in religious liberty.
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You know, why do you
devote so much of your time
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to promoting
religious liberty issues?
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Well, religious
liberty is a, a key issue
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because basically religion
is how you see the world.
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Your religion is sort of
like your operating system.
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It's your spectrum on
how the world operates.
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And when you are able
to have freedom of religion
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that means that you
can actually operate
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as a full complete human being.
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I agree with that.
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Let me tell you a bit of a story
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that's happened to
me in the last year.
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Something happened
to me that eventually
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will happen to everyone,
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if it hasn't
already, my father died.
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And you know, I've
read a lot of articles about
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the great authority
figure, in fact one, one article
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I read likened his father
to sort of like the Titanic.
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He was such a figure in his life
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and now that he's dead,
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it's like the
Titanic's gone down,
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but that presence is beneath
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the surface influencing
so much of in his life.
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And of course, we're
all sort of an inner child
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and we remember the
influences of our parents.
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It maybe because of
that when my father died
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something that he
said really effected me.
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He was in hospital for
about two weeks before he died
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and most of that
time he was very coherent.
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It was only as he
had the last surgery
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that which he
didn't come out of,
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but it really terminate him.
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And the last day that
he was in the hospital.
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We talked quite a
bit and I shared with him
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an editorial
from Liberty Magazine,
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where I'm writing about
religious liberty issues.
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And I thought it was
quite a clever editorial
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and I have to
leave to our readers,
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please read Liberty Magazine,
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you can get it at
libertymagazine.org.
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I'd leave it to the
readers to decide that.
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But anyhow wanted
to share with him.
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So I came to his bedside
in the intensive care area.
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I sat down next to
him, I thought that
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he would not have the
energy to stay with it
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but he listened to the
entire 12, 1300 word essay,
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critiqued a few parts of it
and then as we got to the end
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I thought that it
would be like it always been
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when I was a child that
he would say well done, son.
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You know, as Christians
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we look to
Seventh-day Adventists,
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we look to that wonderful word
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when Christ comes and He says,
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well done there, good
and faithful, absolutely.
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And, you know, I
thought that he would say that
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and he was not critical,
but I, he surprised me,
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what he said he
says, it's good, son.
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And he said, you
know, what you say is valid,
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he says, but you
must present Christ.
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And it sort of set me
back on my heels a bit.
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And so I gave him a standard
religious liberty scenario,
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where we say and it's true,
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that we will defend
all peoples belief systems.
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In Liberty
Magazine at the moment
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we've an article on a
soldier killed in Afghanistan,
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I think it is,
in the current wars,
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and he is a
Wiccan, he was a Wiccan.
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And there's a problem
there that the local cemetery,
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the veteran
cemetery will not allow
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the Wiccan symbol to
be on his grave stamp.
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Well, I don't believe
in Wiccan worship at all.
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In fact, I can
prove, I think fairly easily
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from the Bible that
this is an abomination.
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But as far as the
principle of religious liberty
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from a
constitutional point of view
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and indeed from a point
of view of Christian charity,
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we have to allow
him, and others like that
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of any divergent view
the right to practice.
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So I gave my
father this outline again
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and he said,
that's fine, he says,
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but you must
present Christ, absolutely.
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And I thought a
lot about that since
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and it's not that I was
never presenting Christ.
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You know, it's
not like he dragged me
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away from a
secular view of this.
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But he reminded me again
of the bedrock basis of why
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I as Seventh-day
Adventist Christian
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am so involved with,
with religious liberty.
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Well, absolutely, you know,
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without Christ as the
center of religious liberty.
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You know, what kind of basis,
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we don't have a point
of foundation, an anchor.
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I know. Philosophically.
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That's what I think
and I read an editorial
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on that called,
called, Present Christ.
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I really think without that
we're nothing as I once said
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maybe a little facetiously
to some of our fellow
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religious
liberty workers, I said,
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we're nothing but
religious liberty ombudsmen.
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Which is not a bad
thing in itself but it runs up
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against exclusive use
of certain religious groups
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that might see
others as a literal threat
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to the integrity of their faith.
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It brings you up against
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different political viewpoints
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that will see some religions,
I think, as dangerous.
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Because there's no
question in our world today
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a radical form of Islam,
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I'm not condemning all of Islam
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but a radical
form of Islam is a very
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deep threat to much
of what we stand for.
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One of the
interesting things is,
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Christianity-- The
thing that attracts me to
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religious liberty
work is the idea that
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God did not
force me to choose Him.
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He chose me, but didn't force
me to choose Him in return,
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and when we have
that kind of freedom
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we need to extend that
freedom to other people.
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When our freedom is taken away,
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the whole essence of, of
the gospel is taken away.
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So when we
defend religious liberty
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of all peaceful people of faith,
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we're defending our own as well.
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That's true,
that's the selflessness
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that we see in
the life of Jesus.
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I'll admit freely the
other day on the plane,
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I had a video with me
that I put on my computer
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and, please, Apple,
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get longer battery
life on your laptop.
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So I couldn't see at all,
the battery went down shortly.
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But I saw a little bit
of the Passion of the Christ
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in its latest
editorial or edited,
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unedited version,
they've added a bit to,
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you know, and that's very
contentious even in Adventism.
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Whether this is an
absolutely acceptable
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reenactment of
the life of Jesus.
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But one thing that
comes through there
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and it will come
through in any representation
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of the gospel story is
the selflessness of Jesus.
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You know, that's
an aspect that I think
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needs to communicate through us
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on religious liberty, you know,
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we have a
philosophical construct
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but as a Christian, we're
not in the business of coercing,
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of violently pushing against
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other people's
beliefs or non beliefs
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and certainly Jesus shared that.
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Although He was about
presenting the Kingdom,
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He wasn't there as
the neutral figure was He?
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Well, Christ emptied Himself.
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He completed everything
took that He had as divinity
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and He emptied that
and He became a human,
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then He empty His
humanity and died for the world.
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You know, as a church,
you know, so many times
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we concentrate on
what we're building up,
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we talk about
building up our structures.
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We build these
huge monuments to Christ
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and ultimately sometimes
it become, they'd become
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monuments for ourselves, and--
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That's where I was heading,
you picked up on my point.
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We shouldn't
confuse the structure
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that at necessity
humans build around
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our shared joint
endeavor proclaiming Christ.
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We shouldn't confuse that
structure with the very end.
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I mean, it's a means and
it's been said in the past
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to our church that
organization is a necessary.
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I don't think the
word we use was evil,
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but a necessary element,
but not in itself desirable.
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Well, you know, when Jesus comes
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and He ask us what we
did with our resources,
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He's not going to run an
audit of our bank account.
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He's not going to take
a tour of our buildings.
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All these things were
tools that were very useful.
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But what He's going to do.
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He's going to
work into our hearts
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and He's gonna
ask us why we're there
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and who we've brought with us.
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And you're getting
close to something else
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that I wanted to bring
out on religious liberty.
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A clarification
between toleration
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and granting true
religious liberty.
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You know, toleration is
the worst possible thing
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that we can push for, I believe,
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when we're arguing
for religious rights.
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Toleration has a
negative aspect to it,
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you don't really like
what the other person is doing,
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maybe even don't
like the other person.
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Toleration is an estimate
to the spirit of Christ.
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He didn't tolerate other people,
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in fact, I read in
the wonderful writings of
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Ellen G. White
where she elaborates
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on the idea in Desire of
Ages that Jesus went around
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as someone who desired
the good of everyone else.
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And I hope that our
religious liberty work
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and Liberty Magazine
shows this sensitivity
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to wanting the best
for other people, yeah.
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And so this article again
on this Wiccan man's family,
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you know he's dead now.
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You know, we want them to have
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the greatest right
possible to project their faith.
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Faithless as it
maybe from my perspective
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but I care for
their spiritual integrity
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and I wanted to
support what they're doing.
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Well, you know, he's a young man
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who went and
fought for his country
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and died for his country, right.
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And he deserve some respect,
00:10:14.14\00:10:15.73
we can look at it
that way as well, yes.
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Being a-- It's not
easy being a Wiccan.
00:10:18.18\00:10:21.09
I don't know.
I've never been one.
00:10:21.10\00:10:23.51
But I, you know
I know that being
00:10:23.52\00:10:24.94
a Seventh-day Adventist,
I mean, there are a lot of--
00:10:24.95\00:10:26.49
And I'm laughing
with you but it's true
00:10:26.50\00:10:29.37
and Seventh-day Adventist
we're 1 million members
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in North America
and in the United States
00:10:32.55\00:10:36.11
alone there are
nearly 300 million,
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so we're a small minority.
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We think we're a lot
and we know a little bit
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what it is to be a minority.
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And often there is
real prejudice based on some
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disagreement with our viewers
00:10:48.37\00:10:49.56
but most times a
minority is just sort of beyond
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the shadow of
knowing and all sorts of
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social liabilities
can come with that.
00:10:57.81\00:10:59.96
Why not, Jesus said
we're the salt of the earth.
00:10:59.97\00:11:02.20
Not Seventh-day
Adventists but Christians, yeah.
00:11:02.21\00:11:04.67
And, you know, we
can become very insular
00:11:04.68\00:11:06.89
inside of our structure,
00:11:06.90\00:11:07.87
build castles around ourselves.
00:11:07.88\00:11:09.20
But really crossed miles
reach out to other people.
00:11:09.21\00:11:12.50
Yeah. And liberty really
gives an opportunity to do that.
00:11:12.51\00:11:16.39
But what I, going
back to presenting Jesus,
00:11:16.40\00:11:18.69
what I really like is, I
read in the Bible is where,
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where Paul who taught
he was an intellectual.
00:11:22.48\00:11:25.52
You know, he was a
relative intellectual
00:11:25.53\00:11:27.00
compared to the twelve
of apostles of the eleven
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that remained
after Judas went his way.
00:11:30.64\00:11:33.64
Whether he was an absolute
genius or super high level
00:11:33.65\00:11:38.50
we don't know, but he tried
the philosophical approach.
00:11:38.51\00:11:40.93
He tried to be quite
wise but it failed in Greece
00:11:40.94\00:11:45.08
and after that He said,
I determine to know nothing
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among you save Jesus
Christ and Him crucified.
00:11:48.81\00:11:52.54
And that, that's an interesting
00:11:52.55\00:11:55.12
distillation of
what it's all about.
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Well, if I could you know
make a bold statement here,
00:11:57.37\00:12:00.59
if we do religious liberty work
00:12:00.60\00:12:03.42
and at the end of the day
the people that we helped,
00:12:03.43\00:12:05.80
that we fought for don't know
00:12:05.81\00:12:07.04
that we're
Christians, we don't adapt.
00:12:07.05\00:12:10.58
No, I think as a Seventh-day
Adventist Christian, no,
00:12:10.59\00:12:13.72
that's really where I started.
00:12:13.73\00:12:16.09
We've a very good legal
basis for religious liberty.
00:12:16.10\00:12:19.81
We've a very easily,
I think easily proven,
00:12:19.82\00:12:23.58
historic basis to show that
this was the original intent
00:12:23.59\00:12:26.31
in this country, but if
that's all that's going on
00:12:26.32\00:12:30.39
I think we may
have missed the boat,
00:12:30.40\00:12:31.78
but it really
needs to have a spiritual
00:12:31.79\00:12:34.78
Christ centered basis
for it to be truly valuable.
00:12:34.79\00:12:38.73
I'd like to talk a little
bit about this after the break
00:12:38.74\00:12:42.09
but I'd like our
viewers to think about
00:12:42.10\00:12:45.83
what this means in their lives.
00:12:45.84\00:12:48.08
You stand for religious liberty,
00:12:48.09\00:12:49.87
do you also have a
true spiritual commitment
00:12:49.88\00:12:52.48
for what you stand for?
00:12:52.49\00:12:54.49
One-hundred years, a
long time to do anything
00:13:04.43\00:13:08.23
much less publish a magazine.
00:13:08.24\00:13:10.20
But this year Liberty,
00:13:10.21\00:13:12.21
the Seventh-Day Adventist
voice of religious freedom,
00:13:12.22\00:13:14.84
celebrates one hundred years
of doing what it does best,
00:13:14.85\00:13:18.44
collecting,
analyzing, and reporting
00:13:18.45\00:13:21.11
the ebb and flow of religious
expression around the world.
00:13:21.12\00:13:24.46
Issue after issue.
00:13:24.47\00:13:26.49
Liberty has taken on
the tough assignments,
00:13:26.50\00:13:28.85
tracking down
threats to religious freedom
00:13:28.86\00:13:30.84
and exposing the
work of the devil
00:13:30.85\00:13:32.43
in every corner of the globe.
00:13:32.44\00:13:34.63
Governmental
interference, personal attacks,
00:13:34.64\00:13:37.40
corporate assaults,
even religious freedom issues
00:13:37.41\00:13:40.13
sequestered within the
church community itself
00:13:40.14\00:13:42.36
have been clearly
and honestly exposed.
00:13:42.37\00:13:45.38
Liberty exists for one purpose,
00:13:45.39\00:13:47.75
to help God's
people maintain that
00:13:47.76\00:13:50.05
all the important
separation of Church and State,
00:13:50.06\00:13:52.86
while recognizing the dangers
inherent in such a struggle.
00:13:52.87\00:13:56.73
During the past century,
00:13:56.74\00:13:58.17
Liberty has experienced
challenges of its own,
00:13:58.18\00:14:00.73
but it remains on the job.
00:14:00.74\00:14:02.92
Thanks to the
inspired leadership
00:14:02.93\00:14:04.62
of a long line of
dedicated Adventist editors,
00:14:04.63\00:14:07.26
three of whom represent almost
00:14:07.27\00:14:08.60
half of the
publications' existence
00:14:08.61\00:14:10.72
and the foresight of a
little woman from New England.
00:14:10.73\00:14:13.95
One hundred years of struggle,
00:14:13.96\00:14:16.17
one hundred years of victories,
00:14:16.18\00:14:18.40
religious freedom isn't
just about political machines
00:14:18.41\00:14:21.39
and cultural prejudices.
00:14:21.40\00:14:23.10
It's about people,
fighting for the right
00:14:23.11\00:14:26.09
to serve the God
they love as their hearts
00:14:26.10\00:14:29.04
and the Holy Spirit dictate.
00:14:29.05\00:14:31.37
Thanks to the
prayers and generous support
00:14:31.38\00:14:33.41
of Seventh-Day
Adventists everywhere.
00:14:33.42\00:14:35.72
Liberty will continue
to accomplish its work
00:14:35.73\00:14:38.09
of providing timely information,
00:14:38.10\00:14:40.01
spirit filled inspiration,
00:14:40.02\00:14:41.56
and heaven sent
encouragement to all
00:14:41.57\00:14:44.06
who long to live and
work in a world bound together
00:14:44.07\00:14:48.01
by the God ordained
bonds of religious freedom.
00:14:48.02\00:14:53.18
Welcome back to Liberty Insider,
00:15:01.74\00:15:04.11
before the break we were
talking about how our faith
00:15:04.12\00:15:08.42
determines our
views on religious liberty
00:15:08.43\00:15:10.74
and in
particular as a Christian,
00:15:10.75\00:15:13.23
I believe that it's
important that Jesus
00:15:13.24\00:15:16.87
be at the center of
everything we're doing.
00:15:16.88\00:15:18.50
In fact, I can't really
imagine religious liberty
00:15:18.51\00:15:23.01
being at much
value without projecting
00:15:23.02\00:15:25.92
the principles of Jesus Christ.
00:15:25.93\00:15:28.35
Absolutely, It has to
be that-- Michael Peabody.
00:15:28.36\00:15:34.49
Let me tell you
something that affected me
00:15:34.50\00:15:36.81
as I was coming
to the program today.
00:15:36.82\00:15:38.48
And this is not intended to
be an advertisement for 3ABN
00:15:38.49\00:15:42.09
but I was
listening to the 3ABN radio
00:15:42.10\00:15:44.19
as I was driving to
the studio yesterday.
00:15:44.20\00:15:47.95
And we can
advertise through 3ABN.
00:15:47.96\00:15:49.22
Yes, I think we can,
00:15:49.23\00:15:50.20
that's why I'm throwing it in.
00:15:50.21\00:15:51.95
But I was listening to the radio
00:15:51.96\00:15:53.35
and there was a
very good interview
00:15:53.36\00:15:55.57
with an Australian missionary,
00:15:55.58\00:15:59.21
Pastor Ferris and
he was telling about
00:15:59.22\00:16:01.32
work in the Solomon Islands.
00:16:01.33\00:16:02.97
And it resonated with
me because I remembered
00:16:02.98\00:16:05.05
when I was down in
Australia and that's where
00:16:05.06\00:16:07.41
I'm from and I was
working on our newsletter that
00:16:07.42\00:16:11.13
went out to every
member every week.
00:16:11.14\00:16:14.55
I had a burden
that we feature missions
00:16:14.56\00:16:17.44
and a manuscript came in that
00:16:17.45\00:16:18.77
we couldn't publish as a book,
00:16:18.78\00:16:20.41
but it was so
valuable that I divided it up
00:16:20.42\00:16:22.94
and ran it for the
best part of the year
00:16:22.95\00:16:24.54
as a serialized story
in the division paper.
00:16:24.55\00:16:28.48
And it concerned one
of the earliest missionary
00:16:28.49\00:16:30.87
and that was in
the Solomon Islands,
00:16:30.88\00:16:33.29
which was and still
is a very interesting
00:16:33.30\00:16:36.24
and rather
dangerous part of the world.
00:16:36.25\00:16:38.36
It was once
populated by cannibals
00:16:38.37\00:16:41.13
and until about 80 years ago,
00:16:41.14\00:16:44.19
there were cannibals
there in the Solomon Islands.
00:16:44.20\00:16:46.77
There are very hardy and
sometimes were like a group.
00:16:46.78\00:16:50.96
Many different
islands, they're not well
00:16:50.97\00:16:53.28
united even as a, as
a country even today.
00:16:53.29\00:16:56.26
And just over a 100 years ago
00:16:56.27\00:16:59.32
when our
missionaries first went there,
00:16:59.33\00:17:01.60
they had a very
difficult time and this book
00:17:01.61\00:17:04.40
that we serialized
told the story initially
00:17:04.41\00:17:08.15
of one of the
first Solomon Island
00:17:08.16\00:17:10.07
indigenous missionaries,
a fellow named, Jugha.
00:17:10.08\00:17:14.15
He was educated in Australia,
00:17:14.16\00:17:17.63
he was trained as a missionary
00:17:17.64\00:17:19.37
and then he was
just basically dropped,
00:17:19.38\00:17:21.30
he and his wife were
dropped on the shores
00:17:21.31\00:17:23.15
of one of these islands and left
00:17:23.16\00:17:24.89
there to
Christianize that place.
00:17:24.90\00:17:27.08
Tough, it's very tough
and, you know, religious liberty
00:17:27.09\00:17:31.76
was quite important
to them, quite important.
00:17:31.77\00:17:35.37
They didn't have
religious liberty,
00:17:35.38\00:17:36.84
here there were
cannibals, antagonists.
00:17:36.85\00:17:40.03
He, while he was
a Solomon Islander,
00:17:40.04\00:17:41.50
he was not from
that islands itself
00:17:41.51\00:17:43.32
and so he was an outsider.
00:17:43.33\00:17:45.23
And they witnessed and
their lives were the witnessed.
00:17:45.24\00:17:50.41
They exemplified the Christian
00:17:50.42\00:17:52.71
Christ-like
behavior to the community
00:17:52.72\00:17:55.71
and they eventually had
a few, not, not baptisms
00:17:55.72\00:18:00.73
or conversions
but a few sympathetic
00:18:00.74\00:18:02.87
people that
gathered around them.
00:18:02.88\00:18:04.55
But still things got
worse and worse until
00:18:04.56\00:18:06.67
one day a crowd set upon
them, and Jugha and his wife
00:18:06.68\00:18:13.51
were forced to flee for
their lives for the coast.
00:18:13.52\00:18:18.10
And they fled
along a jungle trial
00:18:18.11\00:18:20.24
and the enemies were behind them
00:18:20.25\00:18:23.06
with homemade axes
and spears and stuff.
00:18:23.07\00:18:27.03
Wow. Looking for lunch or--
00:18:27.04\00:18:29.47
Yes, they were.
00:18:29.48\00:18:30.83
And they-- His wife
couldn't run quite as fast
00:18:30.84\00:18:35.67
and she was behind him
and she was speared and killed
00:18:35.68\00:18:39.29
and Jugha was wounded
and he escaped off the coast.
00:18:39.30\00:18:43.85
Swam off the coast
and luckily there was
00:18:43.86\00:18:45.73
a British frigate, little off
00:18:45.74\00:18:47.90
the coast and they rescued him.
00:18:47.91\00:18:50.20
And then a few
days, and then they,
00:18:50.21\00:18:51.83
"the old" done by diplomacy,
00:18:51.84\00:18:55.16
they fired a few cannon into
the village to dissuade them
00:18:55.17\00:18:59.91
and then a few days
later they sent an expedition
00:18:59.92\00:19:02.60
ashore and they found just
a few fingers of his wife's
00:19:02.61\00:19:05.61
bodies the rest
of it had been eaten.
00:19:05.62\00:19:07.19
Wow, the amazing
thing in that story was
00:19:07.20\00:19:10.40
that the
missionary Jugha asked to be
00:19:10.41\00:19:13.14
put back on shore, he
said that he belonged there,
00:19:13.15\00:19:17.38
that it didn't matter what
00:19:17.39\00:19:18.53
they've done to his
wife, he forgave them.
00:19:18.54\00:19:20.09
That he wanted to
dedicate the rest of his life
00:19:20.10\00:19:22.80
to witnessing on
that Island and he did
00:19:22.81\00:19:25.56
and he converted quite
a large company of people
00:19:25.57\00:19:28.88
by the time he died.
00:19:28.89\00:19:30.48
But the real point of
me telling this story is
00:19:30.49\00:19:33.55
when he landed, he
erected a little stone camp
00:19:33.56\00:19:37.31
on the spot where
they found the few bones
00:19:37.32\00:19:39.62
and the leftovers
of his wife's body.
00:19:39.63\00:19:42.52
And then he put her name there,
00:19:42.53\00:19:45.01
but then he put a text
underneath it, it says,
00:19:45.02\00:19:46.95
"The word of God is not bound."
00:19:46.96\00:19:49.81
Wow, that's powerful.
00:19:49.82\00:19:50.83
That's powerful and to
me that's religious liberty.
00:19:50.84\00:19:55.35
It's great to live
in the United States
00:19:55.36\00:19:57.29
where we still have certain
00:19:57.30\00:19:58.55
legal rights to
practice our faith,
00:19:58.56\00:20:01.51
but it should not as a
Christian and following
00:20:01.52\00:20:04.32
through on the principles
of Christ it does not,
00:20:04.33\00:20:06.54
should not depend
on me having someone's
00:20:06.55\00:20:09.16
permission to spread my faith.
00:20:09.17\00:20:11.53
I'm going to do it regardless,
00:20:11.54\00:20:13.24
I'm not bound by man-made
00:20:13.25\00:20:16.57
prohibitions or
the practicalities,
00:20:16.58\00:20:19.89
perhaps even of
our physical existence.
00:20:19.90\00:20:22.13
I do what I can and realize
that God is empowering me,
00:20:22.14\00:20:26.01
that I'm acting on his behalf.
00:20:26.02\00:20:28.95
Well, in that
sense, you can have,
00:20:28.96\00:20:30.32
spread religious
liberty wherever you are.
00:20:30.33\00:20:33.29
I mean, if you're in a
prison cell in a country
00:20:33.30\00:20:36.27
in the world where you
can't practice your faith
00:20:36.28\00:20:38.19
you can still
have religious liberty.
00:20:38.20\00:20:39.68
It's true, and I
on this program before
00:20:39.69\00:20:41.71
told the story of
Pastor Alexander in Sri Lanka.
00:20:41.72\00:20:49.50
I was trying to
remember his first name
00:20:49.51\00:20:51.13
but we had featured
in a Liberty Magazine
00:20:51.14\00:20:52.68
a few years ago.
00:20:52.69\00:20:53.66
Well, he was jailed
for a couple of years
00:20:53.67\00:20:56.32
on charges of terrorism.
00:20:56.33\00:20:58.22
I mean, he had
nothing to do with terrorism,
00:20:58.23\00:20:59.71
but there is a
civil war in Sri Lanka.
00:20:59.72\00:21:01.97
And as a Christian he
was sort of in between
00:21:01.98\00:21:04.81
and on the
nearest of associations
00:21:04.82\00:21:07.32
he was put in a
jail on this charge.
00:21:07.33\00:21:10.11
I spoke to him
after he was released
00:21:10.12\00:21:12.33
and he felt that God had
allowed him to be imprisoned
00:21:12.34\00:21:15.10
so he could witness
to the other prisoners.
00:21:15.11\00:21:17.08
And he said, when he
left there were 60 prisoners
00:21:17.09\00:21:19.58
worshiping every Sabbath.
00:21:19.59\00:21:22.32
And depending on
him to be their pastor.
00:21:22.33\00:21:25.96
And amazing, he said, basically
00:21:25.97\00:21:28.76
he was saying the same thing.
00:21:28.77\00:21:29.74
The word of God is not bound.
00:21:29.75\00:21:31.64
God is not bound by this
supposed prison environment
00:21:31.65\00:21:35.64
that his religious
liberty was actually
00:21:35.65\00:21:38.42
increased by that situation.
00:21:38.43\00:21:41.84
As soon as it seem
like in the most adverse
00:21:41.85\00:21:43.96
circumstances that's when
00:21:43.97\00:21:45.07
religious liberty
really shines, yeah.
00:21:45.08\00:21:47.64
Because you're
forced against the law
00:21:47.65\00:21:48.78
and you can either
completely bow down
00:21:48.79\00:21:51.45
to the pressure that's around
00:21:51.46\00:21:52.43
or you can go beyond that.
00:21:52.44\00:21:54.15
And, you know,
relating it to the history
00:21:54.16\00:21:56.55
of the United
States, this is a country
00:21:56.56\00:21:58.81
that has an enviable
record of protecting religious
00:21:58.82\00:22:04.37
practice of many
different divergent views.
00:22:04.38\00:22:07.75
But I think that
tradition that, that,
00:22:07.76\00:22:11.56
it's more than a
tradition, you know,
00:22:11.57\00:22:12.91
that understanding and that that
00:22:12.92\00:22:15.83
careful protection of
religious liberty really
00:22:15.84\00:22:17.92
began because of how many
people came to this country.
00:22:17.93\00:22:23.65
They had been under persecution.
00:22:23.66\00:22:25.74
And if you
really look back on it,
00:22:25.75\00:22:27.63
while they did flee those
areas to this new country,
00:22:27.64\00:22:30.68
it was that very persecution,
00:22:30.69\00:22:32.24
that very
difficulty in witnessing
00:22:32.25\00:22:34.60
that gave it
such power, I think,
00:22:34.61\00:22:37.50
There's a certain irony there.
00:22:37.51\00:22:38.66
So should we have a persecution
00:22:38.67\00:22:40.31
if we want to spread the gospel.
00:22:40.32\00:22:42.78
From a biblical
point of view I think
00:22:42.79\00:22:44.36
there's a very good
reason to not just expect
00:22:44.37\00:22:50.37
but to pray there be a certain
testing come to your witness.
00:22:50.38\00:22:55.67
Because it forces a
person of faith to examine that
00:22:55.68\00:23:00.60
why they have that faith
and to be serious about it.
00:23:00.61\00:23:03.73
But as a certainly
politically and as far as
00:23:03.74\00:23:06.82
our societal
context, I don't think
00:23:06.83\00:23:08.81
we would want to
allow things to come
00:23:08.82\00:23:11.82
about that would
restrict the Christian faith
00:23:11.83\00:23:14.57
or indeed any other faith.
00:23:14.58\00:23:16.81
You know, "No man is an Island"
00:23:16.82\00:23:18.01
is the old poem of John Donne.
00:23:18.02\00:23:20.00
And it's certain that
if this country starts
00:23:20.01\00:23:22.24
persecuting Wiccans,
that it won't be long till
00:23:22.25\00:23:26.75
it starts
persecuting Jehovah's Witnesses
00:23:26.76\00:23:28.92
or some other
group on the fringes.
00:23:28.93\00:23:31.15
Like for example at the moment,
00:23:31.16\00:23:32.48
it does trouble me
greatly that Governor Romney,
00:23:32.49\00:23:37.41
a Mormon did such a
negative discussion of his faith
00:23:37.42\00:23:41.34
as how that might
effect his political future.
00:23:41.35\00:23:45.27
I mean it's quite
possible that some elements of
00:23:45.28\00:23:48.07
his Mormon faith
have contradiction,
00:23:48.08\00:23:51.68
you know, this
contradictory elements
00:23:51.69\00:23:53.20
there for true public service.
00:23:53.21\00:23:55.18
But talk about how,
how he as a person would
00:23:55.19\00:24:00.04
relate to those issues.
00:24:00.05\00:24:01.21
Not debate his
religion in such a negative way.
00:24:01.22\00:24:03.70
It does trouble me
and it's not a big step
00:24:03.71\00:24:06.14
from that sort of a
discussion to, you know,
00:24:06.15\00:24:09.31
a generalized
societal condemnation
00:24:09.32\00:24:11.78
of that belief system.
00:24:11.79\00:24:14.27
That's an
interesting thought, you know,
00:24:14.28\00:24:16.04
because we have so many
people of different faiths
00:24:16.05\00:24:19.33
who are always
running for public office.
00:24:19.34\00:24:21.20
If we were to
analyze everybody's faith,
00:24:21.21\00:24:22.85
we'd have some
interesting results.
00:24:22.86\00:24:24.46
Well, you know,
the constitution,
00:24:24.47\00:24:26.07
we're always talking
about the first amendment
00:24:26.08\00:24:28.38
as you know, that
says, there should be never--
00:24:28.39\00:24:31.37
The Federal
government rather shall not
00:24:31.38\00:24:36.41
fund religion nor
prevent the free exercise.
00:24:36.42\00:24:39.45
And religion's not a test.
That's what I was gonna say.
00:24:39.46\00:24:41.83
The other thing
in the constitution
00:24:41.84\00:24:43.08
says quite specifically,
00:24:43.09\00:24:44.22
no religious text
for public office.
00:24:44.23\00:24:48.26
And that was at a time
when Catholics were held
00:24:48.27\00:24:50.36
a very low regard
in this regionally
00:24:50.37\00:24:53.52
predominantly
protestant country.
00:24:53.53\00:24:56.46
So as so, it was
not that they were
00:24:56.47\00:24:59.32
without fears of
religious nature,
00:24:59.33\00:25:01.20
but it was not good
in the political sense
00:25:01.21\00:25:03.36
to marginalize the
people of religious,
00:25:03.37\00:25:06.38
particular religious faith.
00:25:06.39\00:25:08.16
Well, you know, if
there's anything that
00:25:08.17\00:25:09.23
religious liberty has taught me
00:25:09.24\00:25:10.23
is that people are
people and you have to look
00:25:10.24\00:25:12.67
at the person not
all the circumstances
00:25:12.68\00:25:15.21
surrounding them, yeah.
00:25:15.22\00:25:17.00
Who, who is this
person who's going for office.
00:25:17.01\00:25:19.59
What are they like? Right.
00:25:19.60\00:25:22.53
We've just got a
little bit time left
00:25:22.54\00:25:25.47
and I wanna bring it
back to where we started,
00:25:25.48\00:25:28.20
you know, it was
powerful to me to hear
00:25:28.21\00:25:32.34
my father before,
just before his death,
00:25:32.35\00:25:35.22
to remind me of
what I already knew that
00:25:35.23\00:25:38.12
we need to present Christ.
00:25:38.13\00:25:40.71
I hope that Liberty Magazine
is able to do that obviously
00:25:40.72\00:25:44.36
our target audience,
politicians and lawyers
00:25:44.37\00:25:47.09
and judges and
community leaders,
00:25:47.10\00:25:50.06
people of all
religions and none.
00:25:50.07\00:25:52.18
You know, that means
it is not good policy
00:25:52.19\00:25:54.95
and might even be offensive
if I was always pushing
00:25:54.96\00:25:57.32
a particular
religious view per say.
00:25:57.33\00:25:59.40
But I think the
spirit of Christ,
00:25:59.41\00:26:01.60
what he stands for
and the innate message
00:26:01.61\00:26:05.14
of Christian
compassion and concern,
00:26:05.15\00:26:07.36
that should come through
00:26:07.37\00:26:08.39
in all of our
dealings on religious liberty.
00:26:08.40\00:26:11.74
I absolutely agree, Lincoln,
00:26:11.75\00:26:13.94
you know Christ
part Himself out for us.
00:26:13.95\00:26:16.36
He came down from heaven,
00:26:16.37\00:26:17.92
became a human being
and then died on a cross,
00:26:17.93\00:26:21.64
where everything
that He had was completely
00:26:21.65\00:26:23.86
put at risk for the
world that he came to save.
00:26:23.87\00:26:27.27
The Seventh-day
Adventists as Christians
00:26:27.28\00:26:28.90
we have an opportunity
to give back to the world,
00:26:28.91\00:26:32.35
we've a
opportunity to give to Christ.
00:26:32.36\00:26:35.00
Through religious liberty
00:26:35.01\00:26:36.00
we have an opportunity to do so.
00:26:36.01\00:26:38.13
We can spread his
gospel and complete freedom
00:26:38.14\00:26:41.55
and we can allow other
people to choose Christ.
00:26:41.56\00:26:45.19
He doesn't force Himself on us
00:26:45.20\00:26:47.47
and we've been
given pure opportunity
00:26:47.48\00:26:50.13
to share Him with others.
00:26:50.14\00:26:53.04
We've been talking about
Jesus and religious liberty,
00:26:53.05\00:26:55.92
and I think there can
be nothing appropriate
00:26:55.93\00:26:58.16
to this
discussion for Christian's
00:26:58.17\00:27:00.41
than how we integrate
Jesus in our discussion
00:27:00.42\00:27:03.53
by providing
religious freedom to all people
00:27:03.54\00:27:05.70
regardless of whether
or not they believe Jesus.
00:27:05.71\00:27:09.26
I remember reading
a book some years ago
00:27:09.27\00:27:11.20
that was written at
the outbreak of World War I
00:27:11.21\00:27:14.23
and the author in
presenting Jesus said that,
00:27:14.24\00:27:16.87
as the emergency struck people,
00:27:16.88\00:27:19.83
their lives were shaken
and some of them went to,
00:27:19.84\00:27:23.43
you know, easy amusements,
others dedicated their lives
00:27:23.44\00:27:27.29
to service and to duty and
to national accomplishment.
00:27:27.30\00:27:32.07
He said, but all this
is fine but we realized,
00:27:32.08\00:27:35.07
He said, with this emergency
that there's more to life
00:27:35.08\00:27:38.42
than just the
things we took for granted,
00:27:38.43\00:27:39.92
we need some thing more.
00:27:39.93\00:27:42.43
And I believe that
that something more
00:27:42.44\00:27:44.14
that we need
must be Jesus Christ.
00:27:44.15\00:27:47.36
And in proclaiming
liberty, we're in the same
00:27:47.37\00:27:50.14
great tradition as Jesus
when He began His ministry,
00:27:50.15\00:27:52.93
standing up there in
Nazareth and saying that
00:27:52.94\00:27:55.97
He was proclaiming the
acceptable near the Lord.
00:27:55.98\00:27:58.65
He was proclaiming release,
00:27:58.66\00:28:00.56
release liberty
for the captives.
00:28:00.57\00:28:03.83
What a wonderful message
for religious liberty today.
00:28:03.84\00:28:07.10
This is Lincoln
Steed for Liberty Insider.
00:28:07.11\00:28:10.55