Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:00:22.38\00:00:24.11
This is the program that
brings you the very latest
00:00:24.12\00:00:26.46
in religious
liberty news and views.
00:00:26.47\00:00:29.51
My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine.
00:00:29.52\00:00:32.00
And with me
today is Melissa Reid,
00:00:32.01\00:00:34.65
Assistant Editor
and Marketing Director
00:00:34.66\00:00:36.75
for Liberty
Magazine. Welcome Melissa.
00:00:36.76\00:00:38.86
Hi Lincoln,
thanks for having me.
00:00:38.87\00:00:40.71
Now, today I'd like to
talk with you a little bit
00:00:40.72\00:00:43.52
about something that's
been in the news, recent months.
00:00:43.53\00:00:46.00
And we'll stay in
the news I'm sure,
00:00:46.01\00:00:47.37
because there is
underlying contention.
00:00:47.38\00:00:50.32
It's a developing tension
about the role of chaplains
00:00:50.33\00:00:54.15
mostly in the military,
somewhat in the prisons.
00:00:54.16\00:00:58.90
Now there is religion
and religious prejudice
00:00:58.91\00:01:00.74
playing into
this, but how do you see
00:01:00.75\00:01:02.19
the role of
chaplains in the military.
00:01:02.20\00:01:04.32
What do you
understand was the historic...
00:01:04.33\00:01:07.08
The intent
right. Intent of that.
00:01:07.09\00:01:08.85
Of what I
understand chaplains had been
00:01:08.86\00:01:10.58
part of the military since,
past since George Washington
00:01:10.59\00:01:13.61
and so it has quite a history.
00:01:13.62\00:01:16.93
And, you know, they are
there to comfort the troops
00:01:16.94\00:01:19.94
to provide their
faith in their time of,
00:01:19.95\00:01:23.83
you know, very unsettling times.
00:01:23.84\00:01:26.01
From what I understand
it's always been in the past
00:01:26.02\00:01:28.31
sort of rule of thirds
as far as representation
00:01:28.32\00:01:31.57
of various phase
within the services.
00:01:31.58\00:01:35.09
Maybe in the recent past,
00:01:35.10\00:01:36.28
but it was
proportional going way back
00:01:36.29\00:01:41.67
proportional to the religious
00:01:41.68\00:01:44.91
affiliation of the soldiers.
Right, right, that's...
00:01:44.92\00:01:47.10
We pretty much
cut loose from that
00:01:47.11\00:01:48.64
and now it's into
thirds and even further
00:01:48.65\00:01:51.61
it's gone to sort of
just appropriate personal
00:01:51.62\00:01:55.17
or high head by the military,
00:01:55.18\00:01:57.27
even though they
retained their accreditation
00:01:57.28\00:01:59.78
with the particular churches.
00:01:59.79\00:02:02.26
And then they are
expected not only to
00:02:02.27\00:02:05.30
give religious services
to those of the same faith,
00:02:05.31\00:02:08.27
but to be available for
religious services generally
00:02:08.28\00:02:12.04
and here is the
tension coming in,
00:02:12.05\00:02:13.52
because a few evangelicals
00:02:13.53\00:02:16.52
or independent
Christian pastors,
00:02:16.53\00:02:19.26
chaplains have been
trying to project their views,
00:02:19.27\00:02:22.79
maybe not in a
particularly extreme way,
00:02:22.80\00:02:24.97
but in this
context it's been taken
00:02:24.98\00:02:26.89
as extreme and contentious.
00:02:26.90\00:02:30.74
Right, that's what
I've been hearing as well.
00:02:30.75\00:02:33.43
They are saying that
their beliefs or their faiths
00:02:33.44\00:02:36.50
are being stifled,
because part of their
00:02:36.51\00:02:38.60
religious beliefs is
being able to proselytize
00:02:38.61\00:02:42.33
and so not being able to
do that in certain situations
00:02:42.34\00:02:46.47
they are saying,
they are feeling like
00:02:46.48\00:02:48.74
their religious
freedoms are being affected.
00:02:48.75\00:02:50.74
Now, I believe this is actually
00:02:50.75\00:02:53.91
carry over first of
all from ancient times.
00:02:53.92\00:02:56.88
No matter what the religion,
00:02:56.89\00:02:57.86
you know, you
always have the priest
00:02:57.87\00:02:59.03
and the religious
leaders were inclined to
00:02:59.04\00:03:02.78
wave the sensor
and to bless the troops
00:03:02.79\00:03:05.61
and to encourage them
on with whatever deity
00:03:05.62\00:03:08.17
he was blessing them
to mayhem and destruction.
00:03:08.18\00:03:10.68
So we somewhat inherited
that militaristic view,
00:03:10.69\00:03:14.23
almost every culture certainly
00:03:14.24\00:03:16.18
the British
Empire perpetrated that.
00:03:16.19\00:03:19.14
But I think also
we're seeing in this country
00:03:19.15\00:03:22.07
what the Supreme
Court in this avenue,
00:03:22.08\00:03:24.69
what the Supreme Court
00:03:24.70\00:03:25.84
quaintly inclined to
call ceremonial deism.
00:03:25.85\00:03:28.70
This was just
sort of a cultural norm
00:03:28.71\00:03:31.97
and people didn't
see this problematic
00:03:31.98\00:03:34.34
to the separation
of church and state
00:03:34.35\00:03:36.74
and it probably was
always a rough marriage,
00:03:36.75\00:03:39.50
but I think it at
least had a little logic
00:03:39.51\00:03:42.27
when these were chaplains
00:03:42.28\00:03:43.63
that were allowed or
included in the military
00:03:43.64\00:03:47.47
to service their
fraction of soldiers
00:03:47.48\00:03:53.82
that have that same belief.
00:03:53.83\00:03:55.30
Now when they are
employees of the military,
00:03:55.31\00:03:59.17
there is no direct
correlation between them
00:03:59.18\00:04:01.20
and the
constituents they might have
00:04:01.21\00:04:02.97
and they had to
service all of them.
00:04:02.98\00:04:04.85
You got a very strange situation
00:04:04.86\00:04:06.67
where the government it
seems to me is in problem
00:04:06.68\00:04:11.16
with the separation of
church and state either way.
00:04:11.17\00:04:14.02
Are they allowing
under government auspices
00:04:14.03\00:04:17.41
them to project their
religious views to everybody
00:04:17.42\00:04:21.37
or if they stop
that, are they then,
00:04:21.38\00:04:25.39
inhabiting religious expression.
00:04:25.40\00:04:27.48
I think it's a
disaster in the making.
00:04:27.49\00:04:30.78
Right, well, you
hear various cadets
00:04:30.79\00:04:34.22
from military
academies or just officers
00:04:34.23\00:04:37.65
that believe a different
way are feeling pressure
00:04:37.66\00:04:40.63
to attend certain events
00:04:40.64\00:04:42.03
because their
superior officer has, you know,
00:04:42.04\00:04:45.65
said I expect to
see you in church
00:04:45.66\00:04:47.21
on Sunday or things
like that, that's troubling.
00:04:47.22\00:04:50.65
Well if you are referring
I think to several stories
00:04:50.66\00:04:52.97
that came out of
the Air Force Academy
00:04:52.98\00:04:55.51
in particular in Colorado,
00:04:55.52\00:04:58.65
that wasn't particularly
relating to chaplains,
00:04:58.66\00:05:00.87
but it was relating to
some of the commanding officers
00:05:00.88\00:05:05.09
and some of the leading cadets
00:05:05.10\00:05:09.22
not just promoting their views,
00:05:09.23\00:05:11.22
but demanding that
others give in to their view
00:05:11.23\00:05:14.23
and then pushing ideas that if
00:05:14.24\00:05:15.63
they didn't believe
this they would dump.
00:05:15.64\00:05:18.30
Now it's not really clear to me
00:05:18.31\00:05:19.89
as I read all this reports,
what the full dynamic is.
00:05:19.90\00:05:24.76
I'm sure there is something
of this nature going on,
00:05:24.77\00:05:26.82
but it's a little
suspicious to me that
00:05:26.83\00:05:29.71
focus on the families
also in Colorado Springs,
00:05:29.72\00:05:32.60
so it could be
that's part of the agitation
00:05:32.61\00:05:36.45
is what these
local religious writer
00:05:36.46\00:05:38.81
always agitating about
that there are secularists
00:05:38.82\00:05:41.16
who are trying to chase religion
00:05:41.17\00:05:42.94
out of the public fair
and maybe they are suggesting
00:05:42.95\00:05:47.90
in a back the
door, back their way
00:05:47.91\00:05:50.01
that there is
an unholy influence
00:05:50.02\00:05:52.34
if you like focus
on the family on the
00:05:52.35\00:05:55.13
military establishment
that we don't know.
00:05:55.14\00:05:59.14
But I think even
discounting for that,
00:05:59.15\00:06:01.95
there is probably a very
00:06:01.96\00:06:03.44
improper
promotion of a particular,
00:06:03.45\00:06:06.09
not so much religious
view, but a religiously impede
00:06:06.10\00:06:11.82
view of what the
government is doing
00:06:11.83\00:06:14.09
in our destinies
of nation if you like
00:06:14.10\00:06:16.19
in military
embodies that these are the
00:06:16.20\00:06:17.78
soldiers to go
and make it happen.
00:06:17.79\00:06:20.00
Right, one of the statistics
00:06:20.01\00:06:21.75
that I read was that 40 percent
00:06:21.76\00:06:23.49
of enlisted service people
are evangelical Christians.
00:06:23.50\00:06:27.85
While 60 percent of chaplains
00:06:27.86\00:06:30.14
are now representing that faith,
00:06:30.15\00:06:33.12
and but they
mentioned that something that
00:06:33.13\00:06:36.57
is really emphasize
to evangelical minister
00:06:36.58\00:06:38.93
is to follow that
particular career path.
00:06:38.94\00:06:42.23
Where as Catholic
priest, they have really seen
00:06:42.24\00:06:45.53
a drop in the
number of chaplains
00:06:45.54\00:06:47.39
in a Catholic priest,
because it's not emphasize
00:06:47.40\00:06:49.45
the way and because
there has really been
00:06:49.46\00:06:51.49
a drop in priest period
as far as men doing this.
00:06:51.50\00:06:55.29
It's an
interesting demographic shift
00:06:55.30\00:06:57.14
and the whole
goal of chaplaincy,
00:06:57.15\00:07:00.55
I think they would be
across this building any how,
00:07:00.56\00:07:02.44
but as we move
into as we constantly
00:07:02.45\00:07:04.36
tell to more of a war footing,
00:07:04.37\00:07:05.99
even if it's war about choosing
00:07:06.00\00:07:08.13
we're into a war status
battling global terrorism
00:07:08.14\00:07:11.73
with the attended
military adventitious.
00:07:11.74\00:07:15.00
This chaplaincy
issues only going to
00:07:15.01\00:07:16.68
become more urgent and it
does link neatly as I often
00:07:16.69\00:07:22.18
talk about
correspondence of influences.
00:07:22.19\00:07:24.46
It needs, it
joints neatly with this
00:07:24.47\00:07:28.00
developing view of sort
of the righteous nation and,
00:07:28.01\00:07:32.79
you know, global
charge that we have to bring
00:07:32.80\00:07:35.98
Christianity in often co-word
00:07:35.99\00:07:38.25
for that is democracy,
but what we really mean
00:07:38.26\00:07:40.33
is a Christian
view of governance.
00:07:40.34\00:07:44.52
And maybe I could
agree with that although
00:07:44.53\00:07:48.28
I could argue what is
00:07:48.29\00:07:49.32
a Christian view of governance,
00:07:49.33\00:07:50.62
that's not really settled.
00:07:50.63\00:07:52.36
And it's very
problematic when we draw
00:07:52.37\00:07:54.96
in religious
assumptions to political goals
00:07:54.97\00:07:58.99
that may not be
settled and everyone sees
00:07:59.00\00:08:00.71
in the same way
and then religious
00:08:00.72\00:08:02.70
prejudice is going to play out.
00:08:02.71\00:08:04.36
And the chaplain seems to be
00:08:04.37\00:08:05.34
on the front line of
this, don't you think?
00:08:05.35\00:08:07.55
Sure, now do you think
that we should go back to
00:08:07.56\00:08:10.94
maybe the way that
chaplains were chosen
00:08:10.95\00:08:15.08
in the past and
based on a population?
00:08:15.09\00:08:17.52
I think one of the
reasons they went did away
00:08:17.53\00:08:19.66
with that because there
are so many different tenants
00:08:19.67\00:08:23.78
or faith types
of churches today,
00:08:23.79\00:08:26.65
I think its 240 or something is
00:08:26.66\00:08:28.56
represented by
the military services.
00:08:28.57\00:08:29.63
And again with
correspondence between
00:08:29.64\00:08:32.22
other issues and
not just with chaplains,
00:08:32.23\00:08:34.81
but in prisons and even granting
00:08:34.82\00:08:38.49
rights to people in
the general community,
00:08:38.50\00:08:41.57
it's stretching the principle
00:08:41.58\00:08:43.44
with these many
and varied religions.
00:08:43.45\00:08:46.72
Liberty magazine years
ago featured the peyote case,
00:08:46.73\00:08:49.52
I mean that's traditional
Indian religious belief
00:08:49.53\00:08:53.50
to have this hallucinogenic
drug and ceremony,
00:08:53.51\00:08:57.18
but there is
more recent, you know,
00:08:57.19\00:08:58.96
people are cooking
up their own religions.
00:08:58.97\00:09:00.71
There was a case
recently in a prison where a man
00:09:00.72\00:09:03.16
wanted accommodation
for the religion of Wotan.
00:09:03.17\00:09:06.03
Again that's you
can say it's long
00:09:06.04\00:09:08.46
standing ancestral
belief, but in actuality
00:09:08.47\00:09:11.72
it was belief
system that's fairly
00:09:11.73\00:09:13.61
recently concocted to
justify about supremacy.
00:09:13.62\00:09:17.12
Well, you know,
is the government
00:09:17.13\00:09:18.92
gonna give all
rights to such people.
00:09:18.93\00:09:21.45
Are they going to give
chaplains in the military,
00:09:21.46\00:09:23.49
are they going to have
chaplains in the prisons
00:09:23.50\00:09:26.01
to service self-serving
or even dangerous religions.
00:09:26.02\00:09:31.37
We've got such plurality that
00:09:31.38\00:09:33.67
I think its become problematic
00:09:33.68\00:09:35.61
but yet as religious liberty
advocate I cant ever allow
00:09:35.62\00:09:40.09
that we sort cut
someone off the list.
00:09:40.10\00:09:42.12
This is precisely
what they did in Canada,
00:09:42.13\00:09:44.34
in France by drawing up list of
00:09:44.35\00:09:47.47
acceptable and
unacceptable sets.
00:09:47.48\00:09:50.57
What do you think they
get those certain criminates
00:09:50.58\00:09:53.15
for prisoners rise as far
as religious Liberty Issues
00:09:53.16\00:09:55.81
go these days
within United States.
00:09:55.82\00:09:58.72
Well, yes we're sort
of muffing a little bit,
00:09:58.73\00:10:01.78
I think it's a
logical connection.
00:10:01.79\00:10:04.53
Clearly prisons don't have the
00:10:04.54\00:10:05.69
same rights as
we discovered in the
00:10:05.70\00:10:09.92
first election
of President Bush.
00:10:09.93\00:10:13.06
There was quite a
contention about with
00:10:13.07\00:10:14.34
the some ex-felons who
have been in prison should vote.
00:10:14.35\00:10:17.75
They loose voting
rights even afterwards.
00:10:17.76\00:10:20.41
Well, while in
prison they don't have
00:10:20.42\00:10:22.22
the civil rights the average
person takes for granted,
00:10:22.23\00:10:25.33
they are quite
severely restricted.
00:10:25.34\00:10:26.94
In theory they are
to be given allowance,
00:10:26.95\00:10:30.59
because of their religious faith
00:10:30.60\00:10:31.95
been practiced,
not always that good.
00:10:31.96\00:10:34.52
In some prisons
they get the meals
00:10:34.53\00:10:36.69
that they request others not.
00:10:36.70\00:10:38.67
There's been cases
where they are being told
00:10:38.68\00:10:40.12
they are getting
it and they found out
00:10:40.13\00:10:41.10
that they were
just being mislead.
00:10:41.11\00:10:43.11
It's a very problematic
thing in the prisons.
00:10:45.20\00:10:48.48
I myself think
that we've a developing
00:10:50.08\00:10:52.67
or shifting
paradigm in the prisons
00:10:52.68\00:10:55.45
that could again
link in a bad way
00:10:55.46\00:10:58.62
with what we're seeing
in our religious forum.
00:10:58.63\00:11:00.72
They are Christian
prisons being operated
00:11:00.73\00:11:02.91
in Texas in
particular, in other place
00:11:02.92\00:11:04.78
in the country
where prisoners are being
00:11:04.79\00:11:07.08
inculcated in Christian values
00:11:07.09\00:11:08.87
and rewarded by shorter time
00:11:08.88\00:11:10.74
and lower security and so on.
00:11:10.75\00:11:13.05
And now they are
mostly psychological
00:11:13.06\00:11:16.01
inducements for
them to become involved.
00:11:16.02\00:11:18.62
But if we've a developing
Christian prison culture
00:11:18.63\00:11:21.94
subcontracted
from the government,
00:11:21.95\00:11:24.60
then we have
religious conflict where people
00:11:24.61\00:11:27.34
are put into
prison for hate speech.
00:11:27.35\00:11:30.85
Religious hate speech,
or their religion is seen
00:11:30.86\00:11:33.72
as seditious or
whatever and then once in prison
00:11:33.73\00:11:36.66
they are under some duress,
then have the civil rights
00:11:36.67\00:11:40.13
and they are being forced toward
00:11:40.14\00:11:42.29
what I would call
religious reeducation.
00:11:42.30\00:11:45.40
That's problematic
thing and most those living
00:11:45.41\00:11:48.33
in United States
don't realize that right now
00:11:48.34\00:11:52.11
we've the largest
percentage of our population
00:11:54.02\00:11:56.79
in prison than any
country in the world.
00:11:56.80\00:11:59.07
And you can say
that's because of crime,
00:11:59.08\00:12:00.71
you can argue
with the reason but the
00:12:00.72\00:12:01.95
end result is there are
that many people in prison.
00:12:01.96\00:12:05.19
And now with so many in prison,
00:12:05.20\00:12:08.65
with a religious
dynamic if you are projecting
00:12:08.66\00:12:12.76
on behalf of the government
00:12:12.77\00:12:13.89
a certain
religion on these people.
00:12:13.90\00:12:15.80
If you are putting people
in prison for religious reason,
00:12:15.81\00:12:18.35
I think the end result can be
00:12:18.36\00:12:20.06
in form at least disturbingly
00:12:20.07\00:12:22.32
similar to what we've seen
00:12:22.33\00:12:25.33
in recent undemocratic states,
00:12:25.34\00:12:27.07
Soviet Union and so on.
00:12:27.08\00:12:28.97
Many in the United
States don't seem to
00:12:28.98\00:12:30.81
realize that with the
demise of the Soviet Union,
00:12:30.82\00:12:34.06
we've the largest proportion
00:12:34.07\00:12:35.54
of our population behind bars.
00:12:35.55\00:12:37.05
There are many reasons for that
00:12:37.06\00:12:38.46
crime of course it explains it.
00:12:38.47\00:12:41.04
But once behind bars,
it has to be problematic
00:12:41.05\00:12:44.68
at times for
religious liberty perspective,
00:12:44.69\00:12:47.08
but without civil protections,
00:12:47.09\00:12:50.00
people can be vulnerable
to religious manipulation.
00:12:50.01\00:12:53.07
One-hundred
years, a long time to do
00:13:01.76\00:13:04.73
anything much less
publish a magazine,
00:13:04.74\00:13:07.47
but this year Liberty,
the Seventh-day Adventist
00:13:07.48\00:13:10.58
voice of religious freedom,
00:13:10.59\00:13:12.15
celebrates one hundred years
00:13:12.16\00:13:13.96
of doing what it does
best, collecting, analyzing,
00:13:13.97\00:13:17.58
and reporting the ebb and flow
00:13:17.59\00:13:19.41
of religious
expression around the world.
00:13:19.42\00:13:21.96
Issue after issue,
Liberty has taken on the
00:13:21.97\00:13:24.95
tough assignments,
tracking down threats
00:13:24.96\00:13:27.28
to religious
freedom and exposing
00:13:27.29\00:13:28.80
the work of the devil in
every corner of the globe.
00:13:28.81\00:13:31.86
Governmental interference,
00:13:31.87\00:13:33.56
personal attacks,
corporate assaults,
00:13:33.57\00:13:36.00
even religious
freedom issues sequestered
00:13:36.01\00:13:37.92
within the
Church community itself
00:13:37.93\00:13:39.68
have been clearly
and honestly exposed.
00:13:39.69\00:13:42.73
Liberty exists for one purpose
00:13:42.74\00:13:44.94
to help God's
people maintain that
00:13:44.95\00:13:47.23
all important
separation of Church and State,
00:13:47.24\00:13:50.13
while recognizing the dangers
00:13:50.14\00:13:51.87
inherent in such a struggle.
00:13:51.88\00:13:54.22
During the past
century, Liberty has experienced
00:13:54.23\00:13:56.71
challenges of its own,
but it remains on the job.
00:13:56.72\00:14:00.23
Thanks to the
inspired leadership
00:14:00.24\00:14:01.92
of a long line of
dedicated Adventist Editors,
00:14:01.93\00:14:04.54
three of whom
represent almost half of the
00:14:04.55\00:14:06.45
publications
existence and the foresight
00:14:06.46\00:14:08.92
of a little
woman from New England.
00:14:08.93\00:14:11.30
One hundred years of struggle,
00:14:11.31\00:14:13.43
one hundred years of victories,
00:14:13.44\00:14:15.65
religious
freedom isn't just about
00:14:15.66\00:14:17.59
political machines
and cultural prejudices.
00:14:17.60\00:14:20.38
It's about people
fighting for the right to serve
00:14:20.39\00:14:23.87
the God they
love as their hearts
00:14:23.88\00:14:26.30
and the Holy Spirit dictate.
00:14:26.31\00:14:28.66
Thanks to the prayers
and generous support of
00:14:28.67\00:14:30.85
Seventh-day
Adventists everywhere.
00:14:30.86\00:14:32.98
Liberty will continue
to accomplish its work
00:14:32.99\00:14:35.39
of providing timely information,
00:14:35.40\00:14:37.45
spirit filled inspiration,
00:14:37.46\00:14:38.88
and heaven sent encouragement
00:14:38.89\00:14:40.60
to all who long to live and work
00:14:40.61\00:14:43.56
in a world bound
together by the God
00:14:43.57\00:14:46.15
ordained bonds of
religious freedom.
00:14:46.16\00:14:49.16
Welcome back to Liberty Insider.
00:14:58.35\00:15:01.97
On this program
we've often spoken about
00:15:01.98\00:15:04.89
the rise of the
politically active
00:15:04.90\00:15:07.75
religious right so called,
00:15:07.76\00:15:10.50
it's made up of
Protestants and Catholics.
00:15:10.51\00:15:13.79
On one level this
could be a good thing.
00:15:13.80\00:15:16.96
What do you think
about that Melissa,
00:15:16.97\00:15:18.41
is it a good thing?
00:15:18.42\00:15:20.08
Well, I'm sure it could
be a good thing in some ways,
00:15:20.09\00:15:23.79
the concern that
I've is when you see,
00:15:23.80\00:15:28.14
you know, we've worked
00:15:28.15\00:15:29.38
for the separation
of church and state.
00:15:29.39\00:15:31.01
When we see those
two worlds together to,
00:15:31.02\00:15:34.66
when they collide or combine,
00:15:34.67\00:15:36.82
it's very troubling to me.
00:15:36.83\00:15:39.23
You don't want to
legislate morality
00:15:39.24\00:15:41.60
or you don't want to legislate
00:15:41.61\00:15:42.98
a particular point of view
00:15:42.99\00:15:47.30
and so that's why
it's troubling to me.
00:15:47.31\00:15:48.96
Exactly the endpoint I think
00:15:48.97\00:15:50.70
we've often
mentioned is the blurring
00:15:50.71\00:15:52.81
of the separation
of church and state.
00:15:52.82\00:15:54.31
In fact this group have openly,
00:15:54.32\00:15:56.40
many of them come out
00:15:56.41\00:15:57.62
and volunteer
that they are opposed
00:15:57.63\00:16:00.55
to this
traditional or constitutional
00:16:00.56\00:16:02.72
separation of church and state.
00:16:02.73\00:16:04.46
But as I've studied
the last few decades
00:16:04.47\00:16:07.67
in American social
and religious life,
00:16:07.68\00:16:09.99
I can see very
positive developments.
00:16:10.00\00:16:13.17
You can take it
right back to the,
00:16:13.18\00:16:15.27
was it the late 60s really 70s
00:16:15.28\00:16:17.73
there was a Jesus
movement following
00:16:17.74\00:16:19.42
the disillusionment of
the Watergate experience
00:16:19.43\00:16:23.01
which was really a
national crisis in the U.S
00:16:23.02\00:16:25.91
a crisis of self
image and of moral values.
00:16:25.92\00:16:30.43
It's not the first
time that they have been
00:16:30.44\00:16:31.83
discussed at this last election,
00:16:31.84\00:16:33.64
that was really
what it's all about
00:16:33.65\00:16:34.87
with the Watergate thing.
00:16:34.88\00:16:35.85
And I think
back from that period
00:16:35.86\00:16:37.65
people of
religious faith became more
00:16:37.66\00:16:39.43
and more motivated as
they said to reclaim America.
00:16:39.44\00:16:42.37
Now, that can't be wrong, right.
00:16:42.38\00:16:44.16
Well, I think it's troubling
00:16:44.17\00:16:46.07
when someone with the certain
00:16:46.08\00:16:50.14
type of authority in your life,
00:16:50.15\00:16:51.58
would be your pastor,
00:16:51.59\00:16:53.28
someone like that tells you,
00:16:53.29\00:16:55.84
you need to act in a certain way
00:16:55.85\00:16:57.50
as a voter or as a citizen,
00:16:57.51\00:16:58.90
because this is
what God wants you to do.
00:16:58.91\00:17:01.69
That's true, but I
should tell our viewers
00:17:01.70\00:17:04.83
that there was a
very interesting story
00:17:04.84\00:17:06.74
that remain in Liberty recently
00:17:06.75\00:17:08.28
where a Protestant
pastor during the election
00:17:08.29\00:17:12.71
told his members
that they had to vote
00:17:12.72\00:17:15.70
a certain party
although they were not
00:17:15.71\00:17:16.90
welcome in that church. Correct.
00:17:16.91\00:17:18.40
And that was upheld legally
00:17:18.41\00:17:20.10
because that's
not really the same
00:17:20.11\00:17:21.92
as the
government telling us that
00:17:21.93\00:17:24.56
we should act a
certain way or foisting
00:17:24.57\00:17:28.22
a certain religion on
all of us his protestants
00:17:28.23\00:17:31.97
are free to leave like
most clubs in religions
00:17:31.98\00:17:34.85
that they gather together
00:17:34.86\00:17:35.92
because they had
a common purpose.
00:17:35.93\00:17:37.18
I mean it was a very narrow view
00:17:37.19\00:17:39.30
that he was expressing,
00:17:39.31\00:17:40.28
not a good dynamic,
00:17:40.29\00:17:41.66
but legally he was
allowed to do that. Correct.
00:17:41.67\00:17:43.66
But in the
larger scene certainly
00:17:43.67\00:17:46.04
he is relating
to the government.
00:17:46.05\00:17:47.02
Yes, I think it
portents very bad relationship
00:17:47.03\00:17:51.00
on church and state
00:17:51.01\00:17:52.91
and as they have many of
the leaders of unscheduled,
00:17:52.92\00:17:56.19
they want to gain
control of the state
00:17:56.20\00:17:58.09
and that's not good.
00:17:58.10\00:17:59.82
Right, what's your thoughts
00:17:59.83\00:18:00.89
on James Dobson on
his new legislation?
00:18:00.90\00:18:03.26
Well, he is very good man
00:18:03.27\00:18:05.30
and I remember
with good memories
00:18:05.31\00:18:08.18
sitting next to him at a banquet
00:18:08.19\00:18:09.49
that focused on the family
00:18:09.50\00:18:10.47
and he explained to me
00:18:10.48\00:18:11.78
why he had began his
focus on the family ministry.
00:18:11.79\00:18:15.24
Of course, it started
really with family matters
00:18:15.25\00:18:18.43
directly and child development
00:18:18.44\00:18:20.30
and of course since
there was inherent morality
00:18:20.31\00:18:22.90
there and he is Christian
man of Christian principles,
00:18:22.91\00:18:25.46
he naturally moved into
speaking on current phases
00:18:25.47\00:18:29.00
we do on this program.
00:18:29.01\00:18:30.50
But recently I think he crossed
00:18:30.51\00:18:31.97
rather dangerous
line, he savaged,
00:18:31.98\00:18:33.96
well, I shouldn't say savaged,
00:18:33.97\00:18:34.97
he changed his
legal relationship
00:18:34.98\00:18:37.44
to focus on family to dedicate
00:18:37.45\00:18:38.78
himself to more
vitally political activities.
00:18:38.79\00:18:41.95
He's even be noised
to brought as a possible
00:18:41.96\00:18:44.52
presidential
candidate in the next election.
00:18:44.53\00:18:46.67
Well, that's way over
the line as Pat Robertson
00:18:46.68\00:18:49.81
showed us several cycles ago,
00:18:49.82\00:18:52.16
we see the way
he has ended up into
00:18:52.17\00:18:55.10
that making some
rather bizarre statements.
00:18:55.11\00:18:58.13
But yes, Dr. Dobson
00:18:58.14\00:19:00.61
I think is exemplifying probably
00:19:00.62\00:19:03.63
the majority of the
religious right good people,
00:19:03.64\00:19:05.83
good intentions,
00:19:05.84\00:19:08.51
I don't felt them
generally on the church,
00:19:08.52\00:19:11.70
on church
theology in the sense of,
00:19:11.71\00:19:14.04
it was a social gospel theology
00:19:14.05\00:19:16.85
and I wouldn't want to question
00:19:16.86\00:19:18.52
their intention particularly.
00:19:18.53\00:19:21.56
But the way that
they are involved
00:19:21.57\00:19:23.24
and is working at
skewing toward basically
00:19:23.25\00:19:26.82
seeing the answers here
00:19:26.83\00:19:28.03
and now through
immense mechanisms
00:19:28.04\00:19:29.90
rather than
applying the principles
00:19:29.91\00:19:31.40
of spiritual values
00:19:31.41\00:19:33.02
and the Kingdom of
God to society at large.
00:19:33.03\00:19:35.44
Right, oh that's one of
the confusing things to me
00:19:35.45\00:19:39.34
in following
that particular path
00:19:39.35\00:19:40.95
because as a Christian
part of the whole process
00:19:40.96\00:19:44.48
is the idea of choice
being able to choose salvation.
00:19:44.49\00:19:48.16
Well, you're using choice
00:19:48.17\00:19:49.14
which is good
way to throw it in.
00:19:49.15\00:19:51.18
There is no
question that choice out
00:19:51.19\00:19:54.78
on abortion issues has
become the litmus test.
00:19:54.79\00:19:57.72
And to me its very problematic,
00:19:57.73\00:19:59.18
because as a
Bible living Christian,
00:19:59.19\00:20:01.49
I basically I'm so pathetic
to most of religious right
00:20:01.50\00:20:06.21
and their views on abortion,
00:20:06.22\00:20:07.22
I think it's a
very sad commentary on
00:20:07.23\00:20:10.74
where our society is
that you judicially can allow
00:20:10.75\00:20:13.63
to do the
systematic destruction of life.
00:20:13.64\00:20:16.98
And I think, it's
fairly easily arguable
00:20:16.99\00:20:20.79
with the Christian
should have pro-life stance.
00:20:20.80\00:20:23.14
But it is problematic
to me in a political sense
00:20:23.15\00:20:25.86
that this has become
the litmus test of Christian
00:20:25.87\00:20:29.07
involvement and
indeed Christian loyalty
00:20:29.08\00:20:31.17
that if you are a Christian,
00:20:31.18\00:20:32.53
you have to therefore support
00:20:32.54\00:20:34.77
and back a party or a
candidate that has view
00:20:34.78\00:20:37.42
on this regardless of
what their views on the
00:20:37.43\00:20:39.20
whole gamete of moral
00:20:39.21\00:20:40.58
and political
issues maybe. Right.
00:20:40.59\00:20:42.74
And yes that's
an important issue,
00:20:42.75\00:20:46.26
but it's not the only issue
00:20:46.27\00:20:47.39
and we could
easily see how undercover
00:20:47.40\00:20:49.84
or on the one
aspect of supporting
00:20:49.85\00:20:53.43
say good attitude on choice.
00:20:53.44\00:20:54.88
We could have
someone with egregious views
00:20:54.89\00:20:57.31
of how to administer democracy.
00:20:57.32\00:21:01.70
You conceivably you
could have an absolute
00:21:01.71\00:21:03.47
dictator or communist dictator
00:21:03.48\00:21:05.52
or totalitarian dictatorship
00:21:05.53\00:21:07.65
that had very fine
view on abortion. Yeah.
00:21:07.66\00:21:10.75
So this is against abortion,
00:21:10.76\00:21:13.55
this is I think the
best way to illustrate
00:21:13.56\00:21:16.00
the dangerous track that the
00:21:16.01\00:21:17.84
so called religious
right perhaps are marching down
00:21:17.85\00:21:21.16
and not realizing and
there are moral gender is good,
00:21:21.17\00:21:25.46
but their methods by leaning
too heavily on state craft
00:21:25.47\00:21:30.02
and thinking that
they can in essence reclaim
00:21:30.03\00:21:32.21
America in some great
corporate governance sense.
00:21:32.22\00:21:37.39
They don't realize that the
end result of that can look,
00:21:37.40\00:21:39.45
or would look uncannily similar
00:21:39.46\00:21:41.79
to the
fundamentalist Islamic states
00:21:41.80\00:21:44.33
that we're troubled about.
00:21:44.34\00:21:45.71
That's true, it's a good point.
00:21:45.72\00:21:46.90
Now what do you think
as a Christian politician,
00:21:46.91\00:21:51.39
not a church leader,
00:21:51.40\00:21:53.51
but just someone
whose is a politician,
00:21:53.52\00:21:56.07
but is personally a Christian.
00:21:56.08\00:21:59.03
Do you think that they
should try to legislate
00:21:59.04\00:22:03.51
their particular beliefs within,
00:22:03.52\00:22:05.10
with their role,
00:22:05.11\00:22:06.20
or do they need to
consider other beliefs
00:22:06.21\00:22:08.05
as far as their, you know,
00:22:08.06\00:22:09.31
representative, or
who they are representing,
00:22:09.32\00:22:11.26
or how you know, this.
00:22:11.27\00:22:13.77
Well, exactly legislating
you particular religious beliefs
00:22:13.78\00:22:17.91
should be off the table,
00:22:17.92\00:22:19.95
if it's your religious beliefs.
00:22:19.96\00:22:22.03
If as a person of
religious morality
00:22:22.04\00:22:26.13
with religious sensibility,
00:22:26.14\00:22:28.13
you apply those
through the mechanisms
00:22:28.14\00:22:30.80
of government in the state
00:22:30.81\00:22:32.78
and through
democratic principles,
00:22:32.79\00:22:34.55
to me that's actually automatic.
00:22:34.56\00:22:36.44
If somebody is a true Christian,
00:22:36.45\00:22:38.03
how it could not inform
the whole public discourse,
00:22:38.04\00:22:45.89
and there is an element of truth
00:22:45.90\00:22:47.34
in this hoary discussion
that many in the religious
00:22:47.35\00:22:51.69
right have tried to
resurrect that common law
00:22:51.70\00:22:55.55
is based on
Christian principles.
00:22:55.56\00:22:57.86
Well, you know not overtly
00:22:57.87\00:22:59.39
and you can argue very well
00:22:59.40\00:23:00.95
from the legal
point that not at all.
00:23:00.96\00:23:02.87
But as far as a
Christian society
00:23:02.88\00:23:05.88
increasingly Christian
from early days in England
00:23:05.89\00:23:09.09
once it was Christianized,
00:23:09.10\00:23:11.38
the society clearly
was informed in many.
00:23:11.39\00:23:13.48
It's norms by
Christian expectations specially
00:23:13.49\00:23:17.13
when church state was so blended
00:23:17.14\00:23:18.80
where the church
was making directions
00:23:18.81\00:23:21.31
on how to administer justice.
00:23:21.32\00:23:22.54
Yes, there is an element of it.
00:23:22.55\00:23:24.44
But to presume
that you can in our day
00:23:24.45\00:23:28.07
blend the two and use the power
00:23:28.08\00:23:30.08
of the state to
project religious values
00:23:30.09\00:23:32.81
is a false model and
its unbiblical model.
00:23:32.82\00:23:39.13
Our current religious
activists often invoke
00:23:39.14\00:23:42.98
the Old Testament
which in the wrong hands
00:23:42.99\00:23:46.88
can be every bit as dangerous
00:23:46.89\00:23:48.28
as the Quran in the wrong hands,
00:23:48.29\00:23:49.59
because that's
where is the blood
00:23:49.60\00:23:50.72
and thunder and the
fire from the mountain
00:23:50.73\00:23:53.23
and glory of God
slaying lot's of people.
00:23:53.24\00:23:56.93
Well, if you imagine that
00:23:56.94\00:23:58.35
you have access to
that unbridle power
00:23:58.36\00:24:02.95
of the divinity and access
to the mind of the divinity,
00:24:02.96\00:24:06.57
you can do
horrible things, we don't.
00:24:06.58\00:24:09.11
At this stage we're not in spite
00:24:09.12\00:24:12.12
of what American exceptionalism
00:24:12.13\00:24:13.52
and the wishes
of religious people
00:24:13.53\00:24:16.84
that this were God's
instrument in the modern
00:24:16.85\00:24:18.64
world it's only God's instrument
00:24:18.65\00:24:20.32
as we do God's will,
00:24:20.33\00:24:22.13
it does has no corner on
acting as a proxy for God.
00:24:22.14\00:24:26.78
We're not at theocracy
00:24:26.79\00:24:29.95
and we should not
allow anyone to imagine
00:24:29.96\00:24:32.93
for a minute that
they can establish that.
00:24:32.94\00:24:34.48
And I wouldn't
begin for a minute to say
00:24:34.49\00:24:37.85
that even a majority in
the circle of religious right
00:24:37.86\00:24:41.71
think this way, but more
00:24:41.72\00:24:43.75
and more informing
their group actions
00:24:43.76\00:24:45.79
is a mindset that's
known as dominionism.
00:24:45.80\00:24:51.22
And it really derives
from this idea of recreating
00:24:51.23\00:24:54.61
here on this land
pretty much as William Blake's
00:24:54.62\00:24:57.97
song Jerusalem
said about England,
00:24:57.98\00:25:01.38
you know, because it
inform the British Israelite
00:25:01.39\00:25:02.81
viewed in England back
when they have this view
00:25:02.82\00:25:04.80
of British exceptionalism
00:25:04.81\00:25:05.78
where they were
the promised nation
00:25:05.79\00:25:07.51
that had somehow made
the way to the British Isles.
00:25:07.52\00:25:10.51
This is the idea know that
00:25:10.52\00:25:12.78
we can pretty much
formulated in Old Testament
00:25:12.79\00:25:14.84
economy here with
some of the punishments
00:25:14.85\00:25:18.60
against infractions of law.
00:25:18.61\00:25:20.40
We can somehow appeal
to our religious leaders
00:25:20.41\00:25:23.28
as high
priestly proxies for God.
00:25:23.29\00:25:25.92
And its an illusion at best
00:25:25.93\00:25:27.80
and at worst it
can be a totalitarian
00:25:27.81\00:25:30.93
or a vision of totalitarian,
religion run of muck,
00:25:30.94\00:25:34.36
even though the
causes or the need
00:25:34.37\00:25:36.39
maybe there for some
sort of morally generation,
00:25:36.40\00:25:39.39
goodness knows the
storms in New Orleans
00:25:39.40\00:25:43.76
and the overseas disasters
00:25:43.77\00:25:45.50
and so on would beg to question
00:25:45.51\00:25:47.38
that we need to reexamine
00:25:47.39\00:25:48.41
who we are as a country
00:25:48.42\00:25:49.42
and whether our moral norms,
00:25:49.43\00:25:51.07
how do we keep, you know,
00:25:51.08\00:25:52.89
make sure that the
center holds. Sure.
00:25:52.90\00:25:55.47
Because the center
does seem to be flying
00:25:55.48\00:25:56.76
apart for many people morally,
00:25:56.77\00:25:58.24
structurally, politically.
00:25:58.25\00:26:00.55
But these are wrong
solutions that many people
00:26:00.56\00:26:03.08
I think have been
seeking religiously. Yeah.
00:26:03.09\00:26:05.13
So, where did
they go wrong then?
00:26:05.14\00:26:07.17
Well that's a
very complex topic.
00:26:07.18\00:26:08.68
But I think on one quick level
00:26:08.69\00:26:10.50
I could trace it
back to Francis Schaeffer
00:26:10.51\00:26:12.92
who is really a
seminal individual
00:26:12.93\00:26:14.74
in this whole development
00:26:14.75\00:26:16.25
and he was at once an aesthetic,
00:26:16.26\00:26:19.81
an activist and he
steered many people
00:26:19.82\00:26:21.77
in the direction
of changing society
00:26:21.78\00:26:23.93
and moving in on a society.
00:26:23.94\00:26:24.91
But I wish that we picked up on
00:26:24.92\00:26:26.71
what he said about interchange
00:26:26.72\00:26:28.21
and morally
regeneration of society.
00:26:28.22\00:26:32.14
Well, one role we can
be certain of our citizens
00:26:32.15\00:26:34.45
is that of
praying for our leaders,
00:26:34.46\00:26:37.69
both religious and political,
00:26:37.70\00:26:39.84
that's something that we can,
00:26:39.85\00:26:41.74
that we need to be diligent
with and will be effective.
00:26:41.75\00:26:45.06
In the Old
Testament of the Bible,
00:26:47.67\00:26:49.22
there is an interesting
story told of an encounter
00:26:49.23\00:26:52.03
between the children of Israel
00:26:52.04\00:26:54.03
on their way to
the Promised Land
00:26:54.04\00:26:55.32
and the tribe of the Amalekites.
00:26:55.33\00:26:59.07
There came Balak,
00:26:59.08\00:27:00.43
took great offense
at this invading hood
00:27:00.44\00:27:03.68
little afraid of them
00:27:03.69\00:27:04.73
and he called on his
resident prophet to curse them.
00:27:04.74\00:27:07.42
And he was the
prophet of the true God Balum
00:27:07.43\00:27:10.63
on his way up to
the mountain to bring
00:27:10.64\00:27:12.73
that curse down on Israel,
00:27:12.74\00:27:13.87
he encountered an angel
00:27:13.88\00:27:15.93
and the angel stood in the way
00:27:15.94\00:27:18.17
and said that if he continued
00:27:18.18\00:27:19.92
in his course he would kill him.
00:27:19.93\00:27:21.68
Well, Balum pronounced
00:27:21.69\00:27:23.01
the blessing at
the end of that story.
00:27:23.02\00:27:25.52
Today, we live in
quite a different model.
00:27:25.53\00:27:27.78
We're no in Old
Testament scenario
00:27:27.79\00:27:29.45
with certain theocratic regime,
00:27:29.46\00:27:31.80
but there is still that
same appeal of government
00:27:31.81\00:27:36.73
to use ministers of the gospel,
00:27:36.74\00:27:39.06
ministers of religion
to proclaim His message,
00:27:39.07\00:27:41.76
to curse his enemies
to advance his course,
00:27:41.77\00:27:44.54
rather then be true to
there faith profession.
00:27:44.55\00:27:47.47
I don't think it's inappropriate
00:27:47.48\00:27:49.38
to see the parallel today
00:27:49.39\00:27:51.68
and it does explain
some of the dissentions,
00:27:51.69\00:27:53.74
some of the
conflicts of conscience
00:27:53.75\00:27:56.76
that chaplains in
the military are finding.
00:27:56.77\00:28:00.80
They need to be
true to their calling.
00:28:00.81\00:28:03.00
This is Lincoln
Steed for Liberty Insider.
00:28:06.12\00:28:08.87