Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the program that
brings you up to date news,
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and information on
religious liberty issues.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And I'm Melissa
Reid, Marketing Director
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and Associate Editor
for Liberty Magazine.
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Well Melissa,
there is a lot of issues
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that we can talk
about in this program,
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I think underscores every time
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we come before the viewers.
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But today I'd like
to talk about something
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that is troubling to us as
we put the magazine together.
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Is developing hate
crimes or religious hate speech
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legislation in a
number of western countries.
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What do you think the signals,
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what's troubling about it?
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Well it's troubling to me,
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I think specifically
of a case in Australia,
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I think its Victoria is the
province that just recently.
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That's the state
I used to live in.
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Oh is it really,
well you might be happy
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you don't live there now,
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because the article I was
reading was talking about,
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there is
legislation now for hate speech
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and two Christian pastors
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have just
recently been prosecuted
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and found guilty
because of the things
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that they were saying
in one of their meetings
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in a seminar
that they were giving.
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And it was interesting
because they were just
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doing a side-by-side comparison
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of the Bible versus
the Muslim holy book.
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And were in that process,
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in that setting
offended to Islamic gentlemen
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that were there in the audience
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and have that's been prosecuted
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and persecuted
because of it just simply.
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That is an amazing
case, I read the story too.
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And of course
like a lot of stories
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there is a bit more
to that meets the eye,
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one of them was a
Pakistani probably an ex-Muslim
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and the other man
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I think was of Middle
East or Pakistani origin.
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So probably the
Islamic men in the audience
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were
particularly offended feeling
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this betrays to their religion.
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But that aside
it doest underscore
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how a law that
Australia in this case
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have passed to
inhabit religious hate speech,
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can easily be used against
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any religion in
this case Christianity.
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Australia like the United States
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is nominally a
Christian country.
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Unlike the
United States religion
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is not really daily fair.
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It's a fairly secular society,
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but is nominally Christian.
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But in response to 9/11 in some
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of the developing threats
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and religious antagonisms,
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they have past this
hate speech legislation
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and here one of the
first cases Christians
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doing what Christians feel
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they should do in evangelizing
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and proclaiming their beliefs
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and the differences
between other beliefs
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could be so easily
prosecuted. Correct.
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It's a little
startling, isn't it?
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It is and, you know,
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it's a modern democratic
country much like Canada
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which also we're seeing a law
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that just recently
been passed regarding
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hate speech and homosexuality.
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And a lot of people
or Canadian citizens
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are very concerned,
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because they are
thinking that potentially
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the Bible can be
labeled hate literature.
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Canada also like Australia
is a very secular country,
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but yet with generally
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a Christian tradition behind it.
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But it's turn
around so much in Canada
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particularly with
the vehicle secularism,
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but the current vehicle of this
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same-sex marriage argument
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that if a
Christian uses the Bible
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and really as one
judge said just read
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some of the key text
against homosexuality
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from the Bible with no comment
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that actually
could be civil offense.
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No one yet in
Canada has been charged
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or imprison under that,
but they likely will be.
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In the patent we saw.
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But even if they
are not the danger
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to religious liberty
is very real in prison
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because it means
this is an inhibition,
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it effectively present,
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prevents religious
expression of that nature.
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And as you see
with most repressive
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societies
that's the real payoff.
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They don't have to imprison
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or execute people daily
to accomplish their purposes,
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it's the hanging threat that
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you will suffer
these consequences
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if you engage in this behavior
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or this religious activity.
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Where else do we
see something like this?
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Well, we've
actually seen it right here
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in United States recently.
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Pat Robertson made statement
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on one of his
television programs
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calling for the assassination
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of democratically
elected President.
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Well, now that is hate speech.
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But it has raised a very
interesting question now,
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you know, we can
have certain empathy
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with Pat
Robertson on his 700 Club.
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He is in front of
a camera like we are,
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it's always possible to,
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especially if it's
live to say something
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that you would
like to call back.
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But there is certain irony
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on what Pat Robertson has said,
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because he apologized
for it, but then when...
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the program was studied in more
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detail his apology
didn't go far enough.
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He did qualified
in a very damming
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sort of a way in and
at the end of the day
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Pat Robertson
seems to freely indulged
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in some rather
extreme hate speech
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and beyond just
religious speech, he seems
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to have compromise the
claims of this democracy
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and how it
projects itself. Right.
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Going for the
elimination of foreign leader,
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that's an amazing
thing by a religious leader.
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Right, it was troubling
that a Christian leader
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would call for the assassination
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or the murder of, you know,
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an individual when Christians
very much hold life as,
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you know, sacred, so
that was surprising to see.
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But let me ask you
about hate speech in England.
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Now there is a little
difference there as far as
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their security issues involved.
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Recently there has
been talk of prosecuting
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people for being
involved in various activities,
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on terrorist websites
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what they call them or
involved in various meetings.
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Do you see the same implications
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in those situations?
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Do you see,
there's the same dangers
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because of security issue
is there a difference or...
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Well, we've discussed
this on this program before,
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but of course the hate speech
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and religious
hate speech legislation
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in England is ongoing.
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They keep strengthening it,
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making it more extreme
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and since I last
mentioned on this program,
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they started
deporting people from England
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and really clamping
down on mostly in their case
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radical Muslim speech,
but it could be any group.
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But obviously again since 9/11
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since the bombings in
the subway system in London,
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they see an ever present danger
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from this sort of
activist religious speech
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and they are probably right
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and they are probably right.
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I don't think any religion
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and any society
should be free to insight
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people to destroy other people,
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to destroy a property or lives.
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I think that,
there is certain norms
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of civil behavior that
no religion is entitled.
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I've had
discussions with people,
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I say that complete to itself
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if you have faith,
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it tells you even
have to kill some people,
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well consistent with
the faith maybe you do that,
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but you take the penalty
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and I can't argue
that under our constitution
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and under the logic
of religious freedom
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that you should be
free to indulge that.
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But those extreme antisocial,
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antihuman in human,
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criminal behaviors aside,
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I think this is a good argument
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that we should
allow religious speech
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even if it's
offensive to other people
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and even if it's
offensive to the state.
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You know, John the
Baptist said few things
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were rather
offensive to Herod and Herod,
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its true took his head
off that he was in sighted
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by other members of his family.
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But I think the Bible explain
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that this was
something with a person of faith
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operating on principles should
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be free to even speak to path,
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speak to other religions.
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We're entering
really a model of behavior
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between churches where
it's not too acceptable
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to critic their
beliefs and their methods.
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I know our own
Seventh-day Adventist Churches
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involved in lot of dialogue
on the international level
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with countries as
well as other religions
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to basically establish norms
of behavior between churches,
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so on this is fine, but
we must be very careful,
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that we don't let
this dialogue turn
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into creating inhibitions
for religious expression
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as Protestants the
Seventh-day Adventist Church
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for example have a view
of history, church history,
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that pass it a
certain role for the
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Roman Catholic
Church that easily,
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you can uphold it from history
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and from the Bible we see a
prophetic fulfillment there.
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I wouldn't think
that, that particular church
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today would be
comfortable with it.
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But we should be fair to--
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it should be
allowable for us to say that.
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Sure that's our basic
freedom, I've discussed this.
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But I do believe that
hate crimes legislation
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under the immediate
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and ever present
threat of terrorism
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is very close to inhibiting this
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if someone cross fail
just as that Muslim believer
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there in that evangelistic
session in Australia
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just to see the facts puts
side-by-side with the Bible
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and the judge in Australia said
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he didn't dispute
that these are factual,
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he says in this case factuality
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is not the issue. Right.
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You will allowed
to put up something
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that's offensive
to another religion.
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Yes, that was troubling to me.
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Now there just
recently been a case
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south of our offices in Virginia
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of a Muslim Amam or Imam,
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I think this what
they are called a teacher
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and he is just
recently been convicted
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for in sighting some
gentlemen in his congregation
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to go overseas and to
train in terrorist camps.
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Ah! Yes that was
an interesting case,
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I don't have all of
that at the tip of my mind,
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but I've read it through
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and my understanding
on that is that there
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is a certain
amount of postdating
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or making illegal activities
that he was indulged in,
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that he had
indulged in or "incitement"
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that he had been
a part of that was
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before it was a problem.
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He clearly has the sympathies
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with the Palestinian of course
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and people debated that
for decades now since the 50s.
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And they wanted
to support that now
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that we've sort of
conflated all terrorist
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activity in the world with
the terrorist that we face,
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he immediately became
suspect anti-American and so on.
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I don't think I
would like such a person
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living next door to me,
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but I'm afraid he was swept up
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in a larger net
where it's been said,
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the patriot act can
define terrorism very broadly
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and anything that's
against the interest
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of the government
or perhaps of another
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religious group can sweep you up
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and you can find
yourself severally
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punished as he
was long sentenced.
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Yeah, he's life in
prison, he is actually.
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Yeah. Something, I don't know
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if he has got any
possibility of parole,
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but even if he
were, most of his life,
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he is going to see behind bars
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for ill-advised
words in sympathy
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with an area of the world
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where tens if not
hundreds or millions of people
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of his faith and
his ethnic background
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would share the same view.
00:12:17.93\00:12:19.12
Right, right. I think that to me
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it's just really
surprising as I mentioned
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that it's these modern
democratic nations that are,
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you know, that
we've mentioned here
00:12:29.37\00:12:30.89
that are this is taking place.
00:12:30.90\00:12:33.01
Yeah, now this whole
hate crimes legislation
00:12:33.02\00:12:36.19
issue is something that
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we're going to
visit and revisit,
00:12:37.40\00:12:39.45
because I think it moves rapidly
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in the direction of intolerance
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of paranoia and of persecution.
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And we need to have
our guard up against it,
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not accept what everyone says
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but not reject them
automatically either.
00:12:51.03\00:12:52.95
One-hundred years, a
long time to do anything
00:13:02.75\00:13:06.41
much less publish a magazine,
00:13:06.42\00:13:08.17
but this year Liberty,
00:13:08.18\00:13:10.23
the Seventh-day Adventist
voice of religious freedom,
00:13:10.24\00:13:13.01
celebrates one
hundred years of doing
00:13:13.02\00:13:15.56
what it does best,
collecting, analyzing,
00:13:15.57\00:13:18.45
and reporting the ebb and
flow of religious expression
00:13:18.46\00:13:21.65
around the world.
00:13:21.66\00:13:23.25
Issue after issue,
Liberty has taken on the
00:13:23.26\00:13:25.99
tough assignments,
tracking down threats
00:13:26.00\00:13:28.30
to religious
freedom and exposing the
00:13:28.31\00:13:30.12
work of the devil in
every corner of the globe.
00:13:30.13\00:13:32.60
Governmental
interference, personal attacks,
00:13:32.61\00:13:35.56
corporate assaults,
even religious freedom issues
00:13:35.57\00:13:38.53
sequestered within the
church community itself
00:13:38.54\00:13:40.87
have been clearly
and honestly exposed.
00:13:40.88\00:13:43.92
Liberty exists for one
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00:13:43.93\00:13:47.32
maintain that all the
important separation of
00:13:47.33\00:13:50.12
Church and State,
while recognizing the
00:13:50.13\00:13:52.37
dangers inherent
in such a struggle.
00:13:52.38\00:13:55.18
During the past
century, Liberty has experienced
00:13:55.19\00:13:57.58
challenges of its own,
but it remains on the job.
00:13:57.59\00:14:01.34
Thanks to the inspired
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00:14:01.35\00:14:04.07
of dedicated Adventist Editors,
00:14:04.08\00:14:05.44
three of whom
represent almost half of the
00:14:05.45\00:14:07.65
publications
existence and the foresight
00:14:07.66\00:14:10.06
of a little
woman from New England.
00:14:10.07\00:14:12.19
One hundred years of struggle,
00:14:12.20\00:14:14.09
one hundred years of victories,
00:14:14.10\00:14:16.79
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00:14:16.80\00:14:20.02
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00:14:20.03\00:14:21.56
It's about people
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00:14:21.57\00:14:24.38
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00:14:24.39\00:14:27.34
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00:14:27.35\00:14:29.74
Thanks to the
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00:14:29.75\00:14:31.75
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00:14:31.76\00:14:33.72
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00:14:33.73\00:14:36.58
of providing timely information,
00:14:36.59\00:14:38.21
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00:14:38.22\00:14:39.74
and heaven sent encouragement
00:14:39.75\00:14:41.52
to all who long to
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00:14:41.53\00:14:45.39
bound together by
the God ordained bonds
00:14:45.40\00:14:48.13
of religious freedom.
00:14:48.14\00:14:50.46
Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
00:14:58.45\00:15:00.41
Before the break
we were talking about
00:15:00.42\00:15:03.00
hate crimes legislation.
00:15:03.01\00:15:05.92
There is a lot
and our modern world
00:15:05.93\00:15:07.37
has become very hateful.
00:15:07.38\00:15:09.03
And I think one
manifestation of that,
00:15:09.04\00:15:11.70
that we should talk
about little is torture.
00:15:11.71\00:15:15.00
Melissa, does it
trouble you as someone living
00:15:15.01\00:15:18.59
in the United States
in this enlightened age
00:15:18.60\00:15:22.50
to so often read
in the newspapers
00:15:22.51\00:15:24.92
that they seems to
be torture certainly
00:15:24.93\00:15:26.91
Lynndie England and few
others are being condemned
00:15:26.92\00:15:31.73
sent to prison for
tortures, so we know its around,
00:15:31.74\00:15:33.69
does it trouble
you that this is part
00:15:33.70\00:15:35.41
of our modern experience.
00:15:35.42\00:15:36.41
Oh! Absolutely, as a Christian
00:15:36.42\00:15:38.13
it's very troublesome to me.
00:15:38.14\00:15:40.11
You know, I value
human life so much
00:15:40.12\00:15:42.45
and to see it being
desecrated in that way,
00:15:42.46\00:15:45.59
it's very troubling.
00:15:45.60\00:15:48.19
And then in hearing about things
00:15:48.20\00:15:51.03
that happen at Guantanamo
00:15:51.04\00:15:52.11
with using
people's religious belief
00:15:52.12\00:15:54.97
to inflict torture on
them, that's troubling as well.
00:15:54.98\00:15:58.77
Well, of course that was denied,
00:15:58.78\00:15:59.84
you are probably
referring to flushing
00:15:59.85\00:16:02.22
the Quran down in
the toilet and so on,
00:16:02.23\00:16:04.23
we'll probably never know
00:16:04.24\00:16:05.32
whether that happened,
00:16:05.33\00:16:06.91
but there is abundant evidence
00:16:06.92\00:16:08.73
in Iraq and other places
00:16:08.74\00:16:12.03
and even in this country
00:16:12.04\00:16:13.54
that on occasion functionaries
00:16:13.55\00:16:15.58
of the government,
00:16:15.59\00:16:16.73
whether or not
it's government policy
00:16:16.74\00:16:18.29
have been
inclined to malign religion
00:16:18.30\00:16:20.23
and mock people
in domain religion.
00:16:20.24\00:16:22.41
And as well as in
the context of torture
00:16:22.42\00:16:26.26
and I don't think
they are separate,
00:16:26.27\00:16:28.16
that's why we're
talking about here today.
00:16:28.17\00:16:31.03
I'm a great student of history
00:16:31.04\00:16:33.63
and I believe a
lot of understanding
00:16:33.64\00:16:36.08
in the United States is
not just in the constitutions
00:16:36.09\00:16:38.90
in the social
development to proceed
00:16:38.91\00:16:41.47
that the revolutionary war here
00:16:41.48\00:16:43.00
and there is no question
00:16:43.01\00:16:43.98
that it was informed
by Christian sensibilities
00:16:43.99\00:16:46.83
of the dignity of man,
00:16:46.84\00:16:49.85
as creatures of a creative God.
00:16:49.86\00:16:51.51
Of course the enlightenment
00:16:51.52\00:16:52.95
and the whole
intellectual development
00:16:52.96\00:16:56.88
in your
informed ideas of freedom
00:16:56.89\00:16:59.68
and liberty, but freedom
00:16:59.69\00:17:01.35
and liberty
would leave to anarchy,
00:17:01.36\00:17:02.84
you know murder and the less
00:17:02.85\00:17:05.58
I say capitalism that followed
00:17:05.59\00:17:07.01
little later in this country,
00:17:07.02\00:17:08.86
but the mindset that informed
00:17:08.87\00:17:10.53
the War of Independence
00:17:10.54\00:17:12.42
and the declaration
of not just independence,
00:17:12.43\00:17:15.01
but the Bill of
Rights and so on.
00:17:15.02\00:17:16.35
I think that's
distinctly a Christian
00:17:16.36\00:17:19.71
in a very charitable view,
00:17:19.72\00:17:22.12
than an exalted view
00:17:22.13\00:17:23.59
of the nature of a human being.
00:17:23.60\00:17:25.68
And the western
world for all of its
00:17:25.69\00:17:27.96
foibles clung to those views,
00:17:27.97\00:17:30.26
the Geneva
Convention much quoted lately.
00:17:30.27\00:17:33.81
It's not just law of expediency,
00:17:33.82\00:17:36.57
it recognized
certainly form by World War
00:17:36.58\00:17:41.29
I where people died amiss.
00:17:41.30\00:17:42.46
I recognize that, you know,
00:17:42.47\00:17:44.02
lot of people
killed, nations kill,
00:17:44.03\00:17:46.42
this is not right that
00:17:46.43\00:17:47.71
we need to
mitigate at this barbarism.
00:17:47.72\00:17:50.17
Right, I think
that's one thing that
00:17:50.18\00:17:52.56
is troubling to
me in the discussion
00:17:52.57\00:17:54.14
about torture recently with Iraq
00:17:54.15\00:17:56.35
and also with
Guantanamo is people
00:17:56.36\00:17:59.20
seem to be
looking for ways to get
00:17:59.21\00:18:01.11
around the Geneva
Convention. Right.
00:18:01.12\00:18:02.84
And I don't think
that's the direction
00:18:02.85\00:18:04.11
we want to go in and I
think that we want to make sure
00:18:04.12\00:18:06.11
and maintain
civility and decency.
00:18:06.12\00:18:09.87
Now I very often on this program
00:18:09.88\00:18:11.90
mention the inquisition,
00:18:11.91\00:18:12.91
certainly from the point of view
00:18:12.92\00:18:14.97
of Protestant
Christian that a point of view
00:18:14.98\00:18:17.76
of religious liberty
that's an example of egregious
00:18:17.77\00:18:21.49
religious
intolerance and persecution.
00:18:21.50\00:18:24.14
And it involve more
then just broad beating
00:18:24.15\00:18:27.51
and bringing
people up before a tribe,
00:18:27.52\00:18:29.42
you know which
is how it's started.
00:18:29.43\00:18:31.12
But there was a
readiness during that period,
00:18:31.13\00:18:33.74
another time and a place
00:18:33.75\00:18:34.72
we can argue in
a Vatican document,
00:18:34.73\00:18:37.38
remember in
reconciliation elaborate
00:18:37.39\00:18:41.28
that to a great
length from the Pope
00:18:41.29\00:18:43.37
even the last Pope,
00:18:43.38\00:18:45.46
somewhat apologies
for such things in public,
00:18:45.47\00:18:47.94
but it's still solitary
to look back to that dynamic
00:18:47.95\00:18:51.29
and it is troubling to
look at that to realize
00:18:51.30\00:18:54.90
that religion
empowered this persecution.
00:18:54.91\00:18:59.47
Do you see any
parallels today, you know,
00:18:59.48\00:19:01.95
we're on war on terrorism
00:19:01.96\00:19:02.93
that is religion absent
from this whole equation?
00:19:02.94\00:19:06.33
Well, I think
people do a lot of things
00:19:06.34\00:19:07.99
in the name of the religion
00:19:08.00\00:19:09.71
whether
appropriately or inappropriately
00:19:09.72\00:19:13.87
and with various religions
00:19:13.88\00:19:16.02
whether it be
Christianity or Islam,
00:19:16.03\00:19:19.24
I think it's
unfortunate that people
00:19:19.25\00:19:20.86
can look to
their particular faith
00:19:20.87\00:19:23.20
and see hate or violence come
00:19:23.21\00:19:26.73
through in that manner.
00:19:26.74\00:19:28.52
Well, you know at the end
of day there is no question
00:19:28.53\00:19:30.80
that most of the
major belief systems
00:19:30.81\00:19:34.69
see their belief
system is a way to time
00:19:34.70\00:19:37.88
salvation or immortality
or release from this world
00:19:37.89\00:19:41.97
and then looking at
those that don't believe that.
00:19:41.98\00:19:45.01
They are either not to be saved
00:19:45.02\00:19:47.16
or to be dammed or
to be destroyed. Right.
00:19:47.17\00:19:50.31
So if you allow an
extreme religious view
00:19:50.32\00:19:54.41
to have absolutely have its way
00:19:54.42\00:19:55.97
it can very quickly
shortcut to barbarism
00:19:55.98\00:19:59.82
toward and barbaric behavior
00:19:59.83\00:20:01.81
toward another human beings.
00:20:01.82\00:20:03.57
And I'm little afraid
that's kicking in now,
00:20:03.58\00:20:06.83
as we went to and I keep saying,
00:20:06.84\00:20:08.90
it certainly its a line
that people don't like to draw,
00:20:08.91\00:20:11.33
but, you know, we went to Iraq
00:20:11.34\00:20:13.97
maybe good geopolitical reasons,
00:20:13.98\00:20:16.40
but at the same
time too many people
00:20:16.41\00:20:18.25
even some religious
people in the United States
00:20:18.26\00:20:20.34
sort of invoked to
just war theory on this.
00:20:20.35\00:20:24.61
And I think it
was ill advised anyhow
00:20:24.62\00:20:26.42
but even it were adjustable
00:20:26.43\00:20:28.63
that can easily
move to the idea that
00:20:28.64\00:20:31.00
whatever you do is God's
will you are opposing people
00:20:31.01\00:20:34.50
who are satanic, evil. Right.
00:20:34.51\00:20:36.78
And it creates
immediate justification
00:20:36.79\00:20:39.22
especially for the less literate
00:20:39.23\00:20:41.74
and more easily led or naturally
00:20:41.75\00:20:45.88
barbarism among
the group. Right.
00:20:45.89\00:20:47.65
And they can indulge in these,
00:20:47.66\00:20:49.22
these sorts of things.
00:20:49.23\00:20:50.20
Right, I
remember reading a quote
00:20:50.21\00:20:51.35
by some sort of
military official before battle
00:20:51.36\00:20:57.31
or after battle he
was talking about, well,
00:20:57.32\00:20:59.18
he knew the God was on his side
00:20:59.19\00:21:01.84
and dealing with it, you know,
00:21:01.85\00:21:03.07
the enemy was the an
Islam person and I just.
00:21:03.08\00:21:08.05
Yeah, I've quoted
on this program before
00:21:08.06\00:21:10.15
but it's one of
those eternal quotes
00:21:10.16\00:21:11.88
that we should
keep reminding ourselves
00:21:11.89\00:21:13.27
especially in the United States
00:21:13.28\00:21:14.28
that after the
butchery of the Civil War
00:21:14.29\00:21:16.36
and horrible
things happen, you know,
00:21:16.37\00:21:18.28
the
Andersonville prison something
00:21:18.29\00:21:20.62
it's live in the of the infamy
00:21:20.63\00:21:22.51
and annals of the US history.
00:21:22.52\00:21:25.00
But Abraham Lincoln
said you know in this war
00:21:25.01\00:21:27.99
he says both sides
prayed to the same God. Right.
00:21:28.00\00:21:30.95
And He can't be on both sides,
00:21:30.96\00:21:33.11
he says we'd better pray
not that God's on our side
00:21:33.12\00:21:36.20
but we are on God's side. Right.
00:21:36.21\00:21:38.76
And as we look at here these
00:21:38.77\00:21:41.93
problematic signs and evidences,
00:21:41.94\00:21:45.08
they had evidences of torture.
00:21:45.09\00:21:46.85
I think in United States
00:21:46.86\00:21:49.37
and Western
Christian democracies
00:21:49.38\00:21:51.39
as well as other countries
00:21:51.40\00:21:52.57
of different
place around the world.
00:21:52.58\00:21:53.82
We need to examine how
we treat other creatures
00:21:53.83\00:21:58.06
and its part of
religious tolerance.
00:21:58.07\00:22:02.51
In fact I
shouldn't even use that word
00:22:02.52\00:22:03.63
because we've often
said the tolerance is best
00:22:03.64\00:22:05.65
just bearing
something that you wouldn't
00:22:05.66\00:22:07.13
if you could do
otherwise. Right.
00:22:07.14\00:22:09.35
We need religious
freedom we respect
00:22:09.36\00:22:13.20
and allow people to
have there different
00:22:13.21\00:22:16.86
believes different activities
00:22:16.87\00:22:18.50
and we don't demonize
00:22:18.51\00:22:19.72
and dehumanize
them because of that.
00:22:19.73\00:22:21.49
Sure I mean I
shouldn't be our focus
00:22:21.50\00:22:23.68
as human beings are
as Christians to moralize
00:22:23.69\00:22:27.34
someone else we
should try to built them up
00:22:27.35\00:22:29.46
and we should
try to as Christians
00:22:29.47\00:22:32.10
bring them to salvation.
00:22:32.11\00:22:33.22
But it's
interesting because as far as
00:22:33.23\00:22:35.89
using someone
religious believes to torture
00:22:35.90\00:22:39.42
them desecrating
a book or making fun
00:22:39.43\00:22:42.63
of our religion
involving them in acts
00:22:42.64\00:22:44.81
or against there
religious believes.
00:22:44.82\00:22:47.59
What I understand
those are very effective
00:22:47.60\00:22:49.76
torture method
even to begin with
00:22:49.77\00:22:51.52
what I understand
if you waning to get
00:22:51.53\00:22:53.83
information out of
someone you built relationship
00:22:53.84\00:22:56.79
with we try to
see from there mindset
00:22:56.80\00:23:00.01
rather than humiliating them.
00:23:00.02\00:23:03.79
That you brought up something
00:23:03.80\00:23:04.77
that I've never
put in Liberty Magazine
00:23:04.78\00:23:06.84
we've discussed in this program
00:23:06.85\00:23:07.94
and I've never
heard anyone bring out,
00:23:07.95\00:23:11.50
but I think this
abundant evidence
00:23:11.51\00:23:13.35
that the forms torture that
00:23:13.36\00:23:15.56
we're seeing that's
allow be on the chain
00:23:15.57\00:23:20.41
command by the United States
00:23:20.42\00:23:22.48
and then some
other Western Countries.
00:23:22.49\00:23:24.20
I don't think this has is
intention to get information
00:23:24.21\00:23:27.18
I think is it has
its intention to emulate
00:23:27.19\00:23:30.81
and to grade and
intimidate groups
00:23:30.82\00:23:36.90
and you know like for as
example this is not torture
00:23:36.91\00:23:40.34
but we've the world is
been troubled for example
00:23:40.35\00:23:42.96
by the situation in the Sudan
00:23:42.97\00:23:45.61
where the Muslim
literature. Right.
00:23:45.62\00:23:48.52
Have been
terrorizing Christian groups
00:23:48.53\00:23:51.74
well they is rape
as for that matter
00:23:51.75\00:23:55.94
I'm think about
in other area. Right.
00:23:55.95\00:23:58.61
Rape was regularly
used in other mistreatment
00:23:58.62\00:24:01.44
is way to tentative population
00:24:01.45\00:24:03.16
the those acts themselves
00:24:03.17\00:24:05.76
but not ends they were
means to total intimidation.
00:24:05.77\00:24:09.95
And I really think
this torture is to just
00:24:09.96\00:24:11.93
put the fear of God or
really here devil into group
00:24:11.94\00:24:16.38
and that's not excusable
in our modern world. Right.
00:24:16.39\00:24:19.77
That's not excusable no matter
00:24:19.78\00:24:22.65
what the level in the chain
00:24:22.66\00:24:23.73
of command in Western Country.
00:24:23.74\00:24:25.53
I remember
writing in editorial ones
00:24:25.54\00:24:28.07
the Liberty
Magazine about this whenever
00:24:28.08\00:24:30.95
first came out that
many was commentates
00:24:30.96\00:24:34.81
writing in United States
said that as the president
00:24:34.82\00:24:37.50
said this is not us
and then the commentates
00:24:37.51\00:24:42.73
went further and
they said these things
00:24:42.74\00:24:44.16
will particularly egregious
00:24:44.17\00:24:46.03
because of Muslims prohibition
00:24:46.04\00:24:48.96
against homosexuality well
what about our prohibitions,
00:24:48.97\00:24:51.71
what about our norms
00:24:51.72\00:24:52.91
and maybe this is us.
00:24:52.92\00:24:54.83
We need to acknowledge
this and rejected directly
00:24:54.84\00:24:59.83
and many times I heard
public hearings on this
00:24:59.84\00:25:03.82
I don't hear
categorical rejection
00:25:03.83\00:25:05.64
I hear the storm and argument
00:25:05.65\00:25:07.20
that the someone
that has nuclear bomb,
00:25:07.21\00:25:09.99
nuclear deadly bomb,
00:25:10.00\00:25:10.97
or some
horrible biological agent
00:25:10.98\00:25:13.56
that they going to disseminate
00:25:13.57\00:25:15.31
and populations you capture
them and the clock is ticking
00:25:15.32\00:25:18.85
and you have to get out
them before they goes up.
00:25:18.86\00:25:21.79
That's incredibly hypothetical
00:25:21.80\00:25:23.81
almost never is it been born
out by any historical example
00:25:23.82\00:25:28.09
and always it fruit
and just mistreatment
00:25:28.10\00:25:33.20
and the humanization
of not just captives
00:25:33.21\00:25:37.92
but another group.
00:25:37.93\00:25:39.34
Right. Now I
understand that the military
00:25:39.35\00:25:42.72
is involving medical personal
with there torture methods.
00:25:42.73\00:25:47.70
Do you think that's
good thing or bad thing or--
00:25:47.71\00:25:51.10
Well first of all
we need make clears
00:25:51.11\00:25:52.66
it's not
acknowledge that the military
00:25:52.67\00:25:54.49
complicit in torture,
00:25:54.50\00:25:56.07
but the military
personal clear present
00:25:56.08\00:25:59.30
during interrogation. Okay.
00:25:59.31\00:26:00.71
And there been number radicals
00:26:00.72\00:26:04.99
and television and radio program
00:26:05.00\00:26:06.77
I've heard some of these
people express reservations
00:26:06.78\00:26:10.12
about there
involvement in the scenario
00:26:10.13\00:26:12.24
where this they
became almost facilitates
00:26:12.25\00:26:16.12
of mistreatment of people
00:26:16.13\00:26:18.53
and it's little
bit reminiscent to me
00:26:18.54\00:26:21.39
of in the last days
of this Soviet Union
00:26:21.40\00:26:23.90
they were in clime
to use medical torture
00:26:23.91\00:26:27.76
almost exclusively
particularly to religious
00:26:27.77\00:26:30.21
and as well as
political dissidence
00:26:30.22\00:26:33.08
the lay fort of
prison was were people
00:26:33.09\00:26:35.40
were often taken
and applied was drugs
00:26:35.41\00:26:39.46
and the
medications to get information
00:26:39.47\00:26:42.17
and to denature
the thinking process
00:26:42.18\00:26:45.85
and it really was
religious persecution.
00:26:45.86\00:26:47.88
Recovered lot of ground in the
00:26:49.72\00:26:50.78
Religious
Liberty today didn't we?
00:26:50.79\00:26:53.47
We discussed recent court cases
00:26:53.48\00:26:55.45
and legislation
in Australia, Canada,
00:26:55.46\00:26:58.00
England and the
United States that dell
00:26:58.01\00:27:00.86
with the topic of hate speech.
00:27:00.87\00:27:02.81
What is hate speech exactly
00:27:02.82\00:27:04.65
some if to find the
Bible itself is document
00:27:04.66\00:27:07.47
containing hate speech?
00:27:07.48\00:27:09.56
That is battling
to me as a Christian
00:27:09.57\00:27:11.35
who serves the
God of love that this
00:27:11.36\00:27:14.37
Holy document can be
described in that manner.
00:27:14.38\00:27:17.68
We touched on recent cases
00:27:17.69\00:27:19.07
in Virginia in United Kingdom
00:27:19.08\00:27:21.49
that were brought about
to protect national security.
00:27:21.50\00:27:24.39
But how far do we go
in the name of security
00:27:24.40\00:27:27.45
and is it legitimate
solution or conclusion
00:27:27.46\00:27:30.77
when our several liberties
are compromised as a result.
00:27:30.78\00:27:35.60
We spoke
additionally about torture.
00:27:35.61\00:27:38.12
We all heard the
reports out of Guantanamo Bay,
00:27:38.13\00:27:40.62
Abu Ghraib and Afghanistan.
00:27:40.63\00:27:43.40
These are unspeakable acts.
00:27:43.41\00:27:46.05
I'm troubled by this negation
00:27:46.06\00:27:47.81
of the sanctity of human mind.
00:27:47.82\00:27:49.45
And the message
it sends to other
00:27:49.46\00:27:51.05
nation's cultures and religions.
00:27:51.06\00:27:53.70
These men and women are
our brothers and sisters
00:27:53.71\00:27:56.46
and to treat them and
their religious beliefs
00:27:56.47\00:27:58.56
in some cases with
such disrespect is shameful.
00:27:58.57\00:28:02.65
I'm Melissa Reid
for Liberty Insider,
00:28:06.40\00:28:08.47
thanks for joining us.
00:28:08.48\00:28:09.98