Hello, and I'm Mel Olsen
and this is: Let God Speak.
00:00:01.36\00:00:03.80
King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon
spoke these words about God,
00:00:03.83\00:00:08.04
"How great are His signs!
and how mighty His wonders!
00:00:08.07\00:00:12.41
His kingdom is an
everlasting kingdom. "
00:00:12.44\00:00:14.81
Today, we will discover why
this holy king acknowledged God.
00:00:14.84\00:00:20.05
Music...
00:00:20.08\00:00:46.17
On our Panel today, we
have Clive Nash and Blair Lemke.
00:00:46.21\00:00:49.24
Welcome to the Panel... it's
good to have you here with us,
00:00:49.28\00:00:51.58
let us begin with a prayer.
00:00:51.61\00:00:53.35
"Heavenly Father, this morning
we want to acknowledge You
00:00:53.38\00:00:57.85
as King
Nebuchadnezzar came to do that
00:00:57.89\00:01:00.29
in the course of his life.
00:01:00.32\00:01:01.99
Help us today to receive
Your Spirit within our hearts
00:01:02.02\00:01:05.66
to grow closer to You
00:01:05.69\00:01:07.16
and to be a part of
Your kingdom when You come,
00:01:07.20\00:01:10.17
we ask for Your
blessing, in Your name, Amen. "
00:01:10.20\00:01:13.10
So, so far, Clive, in the
discussions we've been having
00:01:13.13\00:01:18.17
over the last Series
of... of the three weeks,
00:01:18.21\00:01:20.94
we've talked about
King Nebuchadnezzar
00:01:20.98\00:01:23.51
and we've seen how
powerful he's become.
00:01:23.55\00:01:25.75
Tell us... what does
history tell us about him?
00:01:25.78\00:01:28.52
Clive: Well if we go
to an authoritative source
00:01:28.55\00:01:31.55
like the
Encyclopedia Britannica,
00:01:31.59\00:01:33.19
we see that he was a Chaldean
king... a king of Babylon...
00:01:33.22\00:01:37.09
Mel: Yes.
00:01:37.13\00:01:38.46
Clive: He took
over from his father...
00:01:38.49\00:01:40.53
he built up the
empire to a large extent
00:01:40.60\00:01:42.83
so it became the dominant
world empire of its day,
00:01:42.86\00:01:45.23
from about 605 B.C. to 561.
00:01:45.27\00:01:49.60
He was known for...
00:01:49.64\00:01:51.81
for extending the
city itself of Babylon...
00:01:51.84\00:01:55.81
not just the empire but...
00:01:55.84\00:01:57.18
Mel: So, he was developing
stuff... building... yeah...
00:01:57.21\00:02:00.02
Clive: Yeah, and
it's interesting that
00:02:00.05\00:02:03.05
he built up these
wonderful gates...
00:02:03.08\00:02:06.02
I've been to the
Pergamon Museum in Berlin
00:02:06.05\00:02:10.46
I've seen this wonderful
Ishtar Gates, you know...
00:02:10.49\00:02:12.86
Mel: And these
are the same ones?
00:02:12.89\00:02:14.23
Clive: Yeah, and it's amazing
that thousands of years later,
00:02:14.26\00:02:16.30
you have these
beautiful glazed bricks,
00:02:16.33\00:02:18.00
you know, that
still look wonderful
00:02:18.03\00:02:19.63
and Daniel would have
walked through these gates
00:02:19.67\00:02:23.84
when he came to Babylon
00:02:23.87\00:02:25.34
and it would have
been impressive...
00:02:25.47\00:02:27.48
much more impressive
perhaps than Jerusalem itself.
00:02:27.51\00:02:30.01
One of the things
about Nebuchadnezzar too
00:02:30.05\00:02:32.95
is that he built the
famous Hanging Gardens...
00:02:32.98\00:02:35.82
it was one of the 7
Wonders of the World.
00:02:35.88\00:02:37.59
Mel: Yes.
00:02:37.62\00:02:38.95
Clive: He also built
11 temples to his gods
00:02:38.99\00:02:43.46
but one of those
temples was dedicated to Marduk
00:02:43.53\00:02:48.83
who was the top dog
00:02:48.86\00:02:50.20
and it's interesting,
Mel, that he described Marduk
00:02:50.23\00:02:54.40
as the Lord of Heaven and Earth.
00:02:54.44\00:02:56.57
Mel: Counterfeiting...
is that what you're saying?
00:02:56.60\00:02:59.27
Clive: Yeah...
00:02:59.31\00:03:00.71
Mel: Counterfeit... yes... yes.
00:03:00.78\00:03:02.78
Clive: So, he
built Babylon for the...
00:03:02.84\00:03:05.31
the Encyclopedia says,
"For his own glorification
00:03:05.35\00:03:09.28
but also in honor of the gods.
00:03:09.32\00:03:11.25
He claimed to be the one who
set in the mouth of the people
00:03:11.29\00:03:14.66
reverence for the great gods.
00:03:14.72\00:03:16.52
Mel: So, god was
very prominent with an "s"
00:03:16.56\00:03:20.26
god... that is with an "s"
was very prominent at this time
00:03:20.30\00:03:23.37
wasn't it?
00:03:23.40\00:03:24.73
Okay, so, Blair, we've covered
chapters 1 to 3 so far in Daniel
00:03:24.77\00:03:28.94
give us a little bit
of a summary of those...
00:03:28.97\00:03:31.87
just to set the
setting for the...
00:03:31.91\00:03:33.78
Blair: Yeah, well
they're really powerful chapters
00:03:33.81\00:03:35.24
where in each of the stories
in the first few chapters,
00:03:35.28\00:03:39.05
we see instances where the
King Nebuchadnezzar's attention
00:03:39.08\00:03:42.82
is drawn to acknowledge
or see the God of heaven
00:03:42.85\00:03:46.69
and so, in Daniel chapter
1 you have the Hebrew boys
00:03:46.76\00:03:50.53
that took the vegetarian diet...
wouldn't eat the king's food
00:03:50.56\00:03:53.70
and were ten times
better than all the others.
00:03:53.73\00:03:56.10
In Daniel chapter
2, the king has a dream
00:03:56.13\00:03:59.03
and he has that
dream interpreted by Daniel
00:03:59.07\00:04:01.94
and then at the
end of the chapter,
00:04:02.00\00:04:03.77
he's able to say,
00:04:03.81\00:04:05.37
"Truly your God
is the God of gods,
00:04:05.44\00:04:07.68
the Lord of kings, and
the revealer of secrets... "
00:04:07.71\00:04:09.74
you know, he's
drawn again to see God
00:04:09.81\00:04:12.08
and then, of
course, in Daniel chapter 3,
00:04:12.11\00:04:14.25
we see those three
Hebrew boys who stood up
00:04:14.28\00:04:16.35
and were ready to face even
death to stand up for their God
00:04:16.38\00:04:20.22
and then, again, at
the end of this chapter,
00:04:20.26\00:04:22.22
Nebuchadnezzar
is brought to say,
00:04:22.26\00:04:23.99
"Blessed be the God of
Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego,
00:04:24.03\00:04:27.23
who delivered his servants...
00:04:27.26\00:04:29.40
there's no other God
who can deliver like this. "
00:04:29.43\00:04:31.73
And so, it's really quite
remarkable instances of God...
00:04:31.77\00:04:35.64
Nebuchadnezzar's
attention being drawn
00:04:35.67\00:04:37.21
to acknowledge
the God of heaven...
00:04:37.24\00:04:38.67
not necessarily worship Him at
this stage but acknowledge Him.
00:04:38.71\00:04:41.74
Clive: Hmmm...
Mel: Oh, that's good,
00:04:41.81\00:04:43.18
so, Daniel chapter 4 opens
00:04:43.21\00:04:45.18
with the king himself actually
writing a letter, Clive,
00:04:45.21\00:04:48.68
and so, who did he
address that letter to?
00:04:48.72\00:04:51.29
Clive: Well, let me just say
that this is one of the chapters
00:04:51.32\00:04:55.92
that's written in Aramaic
00:04:55.96\00:04:57.29
which is interesting because
it's not written in Hebrew
00:04:57.33\00:05:00.50
and this is probably the
only chapter in the Bible
00:05:00.53\00:05:04.40
that was written by a
non-Jew or a non-Christian...
00:05:04.43\00:05:07.67
Mel: Amazing!
00:05:07.70\00:05:09.14
Clive: Yeah, but in
verse 1 of chapter 4,
00:05:09.20\00:05:12.11
he says,
"Nebuchadnezzar the king,
00:05:12.14\00:05:15.04
to all people,
nations, and languages,
00:05:15.08\00:05:17.91
that dwell in all the earth;
peace be multiplied to you. "
00:05:17.95\00:05:20.52
So, he's addressing
this as a testimony, really,
00:05:20.55\00:05:23.99
about his experience
with the God of heaven.
00:05:24.02\00:05:27.46
I think he's a little bit...
00:05:27.49\00:05:29.82
using a little bit of
a hyperbole, don't you?
00:05:29.86\00:05:31.39
"Unto all peoples... all
nations of the earth... "
00:05:31.43\00:05:35.06
I'm not sure how he
admitted "around the earth... "
00:05:35.10\00:05:38.67
but as far as what he would have
considered the civilized world,
00:05:38.70\00:05:41.87
at that time...
he was addressing.
00:05:41.90\00:05:43.24
Mel: Okay, so in this chapter,
00:05:43.27\00:05:46.41
he talks about
another dream that he's had
00:05:46.44\00:05:48.91
but the dream itself
has some puzzling aspects
00:05:48.94\00:05:52.21
so, Clive, again, how
does his demeanor change
00:05:52.25\00:05:55.48
after getting this dream?
00:05:55.52\00:05:57.15
Clive: Well, let's have
a look at verses 4 and 5
00:05:57.19\00:06:00.96
of Daniel chapter 4,
00:06:00.99\00:06:04.03
where he says, "I Nebuchadnezzar
was at rest in my house,
00:06:04.06\00:06:08.56
and flourishing
in my palace... "
00:06:08.60\00:06:10.93
there's one thing about it...
he was doing really well...
00:06:10.97\00:06:13.90
he was at the height
of... of his fame and power,
00:06:13.94\00:06:17.04
as it were... "I
was flourishing... "
00:06:17.07\00:06:18.74
and then verse 5,
he says, "I saw a dream
00:06:18.77\00:06:22.34
which made me afraid,
00:06:22.38\00:06:24.15
and the thoughts on my bed
00:06:24.18\00:06:26.15
and the visions of
my head troubled me. "
00:06:26.18\00:06:28.08
There was
something about this dream
00:06:28.12\00:06:29.45
that he knew had significance
but he was so afraid
00:06:29.48\00:06:33.82
and he was... he was troubled...
00:06:33.86\00:06:35.72
perhaps he was remembering the
previous dream that he had had
00:06:35.76\00:06:39.03
which he couldn't remember
00:06:39.06\00:06:40.40
and knew that it
had some significance.
00:06:40.43\00:06:43.67
Mel: Yes, so, what was the
concept of "flourishing" Blair,
00:06:43.73\00:06:47.10
might have given him the
self-confidence in this dream,
00:06:47.14\00:06:50.47
so, start us of with it.
00:06:50.51\00:06:52.17
Blair: Yeah, well, if we have
a look here in Daniel chapter 4
00:06:52.21\00:06:54.34
verses 10 through
12, it says that...
00:06:54.38\00:06:56.34
"These were the visions
of my head while on my bed:
00:06:56.38\00:06:59.25
I was looking, and behold a
tree in the midst of the earth,
00:06:59.31\00:07:01.65
and its height was great.
00:07:01.68\00:07:03.02
The tree grew and became strong;
00:07:03.05\00:07:04.39
its height
reached to the heavens,
00:07:04.42\00:07:05.75
and it would be seen to
the ends of all the earth.
00:07:05.79\00:07:07.36
Its leaves were
lovely, its fruit abundant,
00:07:07.39\00:07:09.49
and in it was food for all.
00:07:09.52\00:07:10.96
The beasts of the
field found shade under it,
00:07:10.99\00:07:12.56
the birds of the
heavens dwelt in its branches,
00:07:12.59\00:07:14.60
and all flesh was fed by it. "
00:07:14.63\00:07:17.03
And so, the picture we see here
is a picture of great provision,
00:07:17.07\00:07:21.27
other nations coming
and being provided for...
00:07:21.30\00:07:23.84
seeing, you know,
as being a shelter
00:07:23.91\00:07:26.88
and so, really, you do...
this is, as Clive pointed out,
00:07:26.94\00:07:30.75
capturing a period of
time where the king of Babylon
00:07:30.78\00:07:34.52
was very much flourishing.
00:07:34.55\00:07:36.02
Clive: Yeah, he uses
words, doesn't he, like, Blair,
00:07:36.05\00:07:38.35
like, "It was...
height was great, strong,
00:07:38.39\00:07:42.76
reached to heaven... "
00:07:42.79\00:07:44.23
yeah, it's quite powerful
language that he's using here.
00:07:44.26\00:07:50.30
Mel: Very powerful language,
00:07:50.33\00:07:51.67
so, the pictures
of this large tree...
00:07:51.70\00:07:54.97
what significance in
Scripture does a tree have?
00:07:55.00\00:07:58.74
Blair: Yeah, if we turn
across to Ezekiel chapter 31
00:07:58.77\00:08:02.48
and pick it up in verse 3,
00:08:02.51\00:08:04.55
we... we can see
here a description
00:08:04.58\00:08:06.98
of the Prophet
Ezekiel as he's describing
00:08:07.02\00:08:09.78
a serious conquest of Egypt
00:08:09.82\00:08:11.69
and this is where
we read in chapter 31
00:08:11.72\00:08:14.09
as he describes the situation,
00:08:14.12\00:08:15.62
it says, "Indeed
Assyria was a cedar in Lebanon,
00:08:15.69\00:08:19.46
with fine branches
that shaded the forest,
00:08:19.49\00:08:21.56
and of a high stature;
00:08:21.60\00:08:22.93
and its top was among
the high... thick boughs... "
00:08:22.96\00:08:26.60
and then, across in verse 5,
00:08:26.63\00:08:28.84
it talks about its
height being exalted...
00:08:28.87\00:08:30.91
the birds of
heaven being under it...
00:08:30.94\00:08:32.87
they have their
nests it its boughs...
00:08:32.91\00:08:34.78
and in its shadow all
great nations made their home.
00:08:34.81\00:08:38.81
And so, you see this picture
here of... in Scripture...
00:08:38.85\00:08:42.82
a nation being
represented by a tree...
00:08:42.85\00:08:46.02
or a tree representing a nation.
00:08:46.05\00:08:47.46
It says there, "Assyria was
like a cedar that provided... "
00:08:47.49\00:08:50.99
again provision...
00:08:51.03\00:08:52.39
very similar to the
passage that we've just read
00:08:52.43\00:08:54.40
in Daniel chapter 4.
00:08:54.43\00:08:55.90
Mel: Yes, okay, so,
00:08:55.93\00:08:57.33
we're talking about the
dream again there, Clive,
00:08:57.37\00:08:59.50
he was afraid and troubled...
00:08:59.53\00:09:02.00
can you unpack
that a bit for us?
00:09:02.04\00:09:04.21
Clive: He must have felt
that there was importance
00:09:04.24\00:09:08.21
to this dream that he had
00:09:08.24\00:09:10.38
and he didn't
know what it meant.
00:09:10.41\00:09:13.92
Perhaps he had some inkling
that it represented his kingdom
00:09:13.95\00:09:18.72
and maybe himself personally...
00:09:18.75\00:09:20.62
but in verse 13 we read,
00:09:20.66\00:09:24.76
"I saw in the visions
of my head while on my bed,
00:09:24.79\00:09:28.43
and there was a watcher... "
00:09:28.46\00:09:29.86
this is interpreted as
being a heavenly watcher...
00:09:29.93\00:09:34.77
like someone from heaven...
00:09:34.80\00:09:36.24
"a holy one... " just
to expand on that idea,
00:09:36.27\00:09:39.41
"coming down from heaven. "
00:09:39.44\00:09:40.78
Verse 14... "He
cried aloud and said thus:
00:09:40.81\00:09:43.78
'Chop down the tree
and cut off its branches,
00:09:43.81\00:09:46.85
strip off its leaves... "
00:09:46.88\00:09:48.35
this is getting
pretty ominous...
00:09:48.38\00:09:49.78
All: Agreeing...
00:09:49.85\00:09:51.19
Clive: "Let the
beasts get out from under it,
00:09:51.22\00:09:53.15
and the birds
from its branches. "
00:09:53.19\00:09:55.66
But the first
half of verse 15 says,
00:09:55.69\00:09:58.09
"Nevertheless leave the
stump and roots in the earth,
00:09:58.16\00:10:01.83
bound with a band
of iron and bronze. "
00:10:01.86\00:10:04.93
So, he's a bit concerned about
what... what does this all mean?
00:10:04.97\00:10:10.51
Mel: Yes, so I guess his
anxiety is growing and growing,
00:10:10.54\00:10:14.14
Clive, can you tell us
how the dream ends then.
00:10:14.18\00:10:16.81
Clive: Well,
second half of verse 15,
00:10:16.85\00:10:19.41
Daniel 4... "Let it be
wet with the dew of heaven,
00:10:19.45\00:10:23.95
and let him... "
00:10:23.99\00:10:25.85
so this is becoming
an individual now...
00:10:25.89\00:10:27.62
"let him graze with the beasts
on the grass of the earth. "
00:10:27.66\00:10:33.50
Verse 16...
00:10:33.53\00:10:35.16
"Let his heart be
changed from that of a man,
00:10:35.20\00:10:37.70
let him be given the
heart of a beast... "
00:10:37.73\00:10:39.13
and then, there's a
time element introduced...
00:10:39.17\00:10:41.67
"Let seven
times pass over him. "
00:10:41.70\00:10:45.01
Verse 17...
00:10:45.04\00:10:46.64
"This decision is by the
decree of the watchers... "
00:10:46.68\00:10:49.08
there's this
heavenly beings there...
00:10:49.11\00:10:51.35
here's the "holy one" again...
00:10:51.38\00:10:52.71
"And the sentence by the word
of the holy ones, in order... "
00:10:52.75\00:10:55.95
there's a
purpose for it you see.
00:10:55.98\00:10:57.35
Mel: Yes, yeah.
00:10:57.39\00:10:58.85
Clive: In order
that the living may know
00:10:58.89\00:11:00.62
that the Most High
rules in the kingdom of men,
00:11:00.66\00:11:04.03
gives it to whomever He will,
00:11:04.06\00:11:06.03
and sets over it
the lowest of men. "
00:11:06.06\00:11:09.50
Yeah...
00:11:09.56\00:11:12.23
Mel: This is a good reason for
the fear creeping in, I imagine.
00:11:12.27\00:11:16.57
Clive: Hmmm... hmmm...
00:11:16.60\00:11:17.94
Mel: Okay, so, Blair, if I said
that the king was a mighty king
00:11:17.97\00:11:22.71
but a slow learner,
00:11:22.74\00:11:24.08
is there anything
in the next few verses
00:11:24.11\00:11:26.72
that might indicate this?
00:11:26.75\00:11:28.92
Blair: Yeah, have a
look here in verse...
00:11:28.95\00:11:33.12
chapter 4 verse 6 and 7,
00:11:33.15\00:11:34.92
it says,
"Therefore I issued a decree
00:11:34.96\00:11:37.49
to bring in all the wise
men of Babylon before me,
00:11:37.53\00:11:40.26
that they might make known to me
00:11:40.30\00:11:41.80
the
interpretation of this dream.
00:11:41.83\00:11:43.37
Then the
magicians, the astrologers,
00:11:43.40\00:11:44.87
the Chaldeans, and
the soothsayers came in,
00:11:44.90\00:11:46.37
I told them the dream;
00:11:46.40\00:11:47.74
but they did not make known
to me its interpretation. "
00:11:47.77\00:11:50.07
This is a repeat
from Daniel chapter 2...
00:11:50.11\00:11:52.94
Clive: It's just like the same.
00:11:52.97\00:11:55.04
Blair: He didn't
learn the lesson...
00:11:55.08\00:11:56.41
these... these people
who were supposed to be
00:11:56.44\00:11:59.21
in connection with God
00:11:59.25\00:12:00.58
are not able to
communicate the mysteries of...
00:12:00.62\00:12:03.45
we know the Bible says
that God alone knows the future.
00:12:03.49\00:12:06.19
Clive: It wasn't any help
to go back over the image,
00:12:06.25\00:12:08.92
were they?
00:12:08.96\00:12:10.29
Are they going to...
00:12:10.33\00:12:11.83
is he going to have
any better luck this time?
00:12:11.89\00:12:13.36
Blair: He may
think so, but no...
00:12:13.40\00:12:14.80
Mel: So, that's why I
came this way a little bit,
00:12:14.83\00:12:18.03
let me just read
verse 8 and verse 9,
00:12:18.07\00:12:21.50
and the king is talking here,
00:12:21.54\00:12:23.00
"But at last
Daniel came before me... "
00:12:23.04\00:12:25.51
and then the
king actually pauses
00:12:25.54\00:12:27.58
and puts a
parenthesis in here and he says,
00:12:27.61\00:12:30.18
"His name is Belteshazzar,
00:12:30.21\00:12:32.18
according to the
name of my god... "
00:12:32.21\00:12:35.08
Clive: Yeah, "Bel" was
one of the gods wasn't he?
00:12:35.12\00:12:37.39
Mel: Yeah, Bel was and still
in the parenthesis he said,
00:12:37.42\00:12:40.16
"In him is the
Spirit of the Holy God,
00:12:40.19\00:12:43.73
and I told the
dream before him, saying:
00:12:43.76\00:12:46.96
'Belteshazzar,
chief of the magicians,
00:12:47.00\00:12:50.13
because I know that the Spirit
of the Holy God is in you,
00:12:50.17\00:12:54.24
and no secret troubles you,
00:12:54.27\00:12:56.47
explain to me the visions
of my dream that I have seen,
00:12:56.50\00:13:01.04
and its interpretation. "
00:13:01.11\00:13:02.98
And so, Blair,
what do you think?
00:13:03.01\00:13:05.55
It's interesting
to me that you've got
00:13:05.58\00:13:08.35
"my god... and the
Spirit of the living God... "
00:13:08.38\00:13:11.45
in the one sentence.
00:13:11.52\00:13:13.09
Blair: Yeah, it is
interesting especially
00:13:13.12\00:13:15.46
that king
Nebuchnezzar would say that...
00:13:15.49\00:13:17.79
he refers to his own god
00:13:17.83\00:13:19.29
but then he also refers to
the "Spirit of the Living God"
00:13:19.33\00:13:23.37
and I think it's remarkable
that the king... this pagan king
00:13:23.40\00:13:27.40
is able to recognize
00:13:27.44\00:13:28.77
after he's seen
evidences of God's power
00:13:28.80\00:13:31.21
and he... but he
still follows his own gods
00:13:31.24\00:13:33.78
and he acknowledges that here.
00:13:33.81\00:13:35.94
But he is in the midst
of following his own god...
00:13:35.98\00:13:38.98
he's still seeking out Daniel
00:13:39.01\00:13:40.62
who the Spirit of the
Living God works in him
00:13:40.65\00:13:43.15
and so he's making
the acknowledgement
00:13:43.18\00:13:44.79
that the God of heaven is
working in the life of Daniel,
00:13:44.82\00:13:48.82
he can see that.
00:13:48.86\00:13:50.19
Mel: Yeah, that's powerful
isn't it... to see that?
00:13:50.23\00:13:51.79
Now, Clive, we find Daniel
is faced with the interpretation
00:13:51.83\00:13:55.46
but he's talking to the king
00:13:55.50\00:13:58.47
and there are
some negatives in this,
00:13:58.50\00:14:00.37
how does he handle it?
00:14:00.40\00:14:01.74
Clive: Well, I can
imagine if he sensed,
00:14:01.77\00:14:04.74
through the Spirit
of God moving in him
00:14:04.77\00:14:07.78
that if there's something
negative about the king
00:14:07.84\00:14:10.65
that... "What do I say to him?
00:14:10.68\00:14:12.71
How do I put this?"
00:14:12.75\00:14:14.08
Mel: That's right.
00:14:14.12\00:14:15.45
Clive: "I would be
diplomatic, you know,
00:14:15.48\00:14:16.82
in putting this
00:14:16.85\00:14:18.19
because there is a negative
message out of this... "
00:14:18.22\00:14:20.72
let's pick it up...
the story in verse 19,
00:14:20.76\00:14:24.09
"Then Daniel, whose
name was Belteshazzar,
00:14:24.13\00:14:27.43
was astonished for a time,
00:14:27.46\00:14:29.66
and his thoughts troubled him.
00:14:29.70\00:14:31.33
So the king spoke, and said,
00:14:31.37\00:14:32.97
'Belteshazzar,
do not let the dream
00:14:33.00\00:14:35.17
or its
interpretation trouble you. '
00:14:35.20\00:14:37.31
Belteshazzar answered
and said, 'My lord... '"
00:14:37.34\00:14:40.48
and here he's kind of
deflecting things a little bit,
00:14:40.54\00:14:43.78
he says, "may the dream
concern those who hate you,
00:14:43.85\00:14:47.05
and its interpretation
concern your enemies!"
00:14:47.08\00:14:49.62
"I wish this was a
dream about your enemies...
00:14:49.65\00:14:52.15
not about you...
Nebuchadnezzar... "
00:14:52.19\00:14:54.29
Mel: I guess he's got
to have polite behavior
00:14:54.32\00:14:56.22
in conversation with the king,
00:14:56.26\00:14:57.59
at the same time deliver a
message that's a negative one,
00:14:57.63\00:15:01.13
yes... yeah...
00:15:01.16\00:15:02.50
so, we find Daniel is faithful
and commences the interpretation
00:15:02.53\00:15:06.60
so, who is the
subject of the dream
00:15:06.63\00:15:09.37
and what is the dream about?
00:15:09.40\00:15:11.44
Well, verse 20, he
says, "The tree that you saw,
00:15:11.47\00:15:15.48
which grew and became strong,
et cetera... et cetera...
00:15:15.54\00:15:19.95
filled the whole
earth... " he says...
00:15:19.98\00:15:21.32
and then in verse 22 he
says, "It is you, O king,
00:15:21.35\00:15:24.82
who have grown
and become strong;
00:15:24.85\00:15:27.19
for your greatness has grown
and reaches to the heavens,
00:15:27.22\00:15:29.82
and your dominion to
the end of the earth. "
00:15:29.86\00:15:31.99
"So,
unfortunately, Nebuchadnezzar,
00:15:32.03\00:15:34.66
I have to tell you that
you're represented by this tree
00:15:34.70\00:15:38.13
that's going to be cut down. "
00:15:38.17\00:15:39.50
Mel: So, in the dream...
00:15:39.53\00:15:40.87
that's where it
became personal, didn't it?
00:15:40.90\00:15:42.64
It was going from great
nations down to... you...
00:15:42.67\00:15:45.71
and it's... it's you...
00:15:45.74\00:15:47.61
yeah, so, what else
happens to the tree, Blair?
00:15:47.64\00:15:49.91
Blair: Yeah, well obviously,
as has been pointed out,
00:15:49.94\00:15:52.75
this tree in 23 is going to
be chopped down and cut down
00:15:52.78\00:15:55.72
and then, Daniel
really just interprets this
00:15:55.75\00:15:58.65
in verse 24 and 25,
00:15:58.69\00:16:00.02
he says, "This is the
interpretation, O king,
00:16:00.06\00:16:02.16
and this is the
decree of the Most High,
00:16:02.22\00:16:04.19
which has come
upon my lord the king:
00:16:04.23\00:16:06.19
they shall drive you from men,
00:16:06.23\00:16:08.56
your dwelling shall be
with the beasts of the field,
00:16:08.63\00:16:10.50
and they shall make
you eat grass like oxen.
00:16:10.53\00:16:12.73
They shall wet you
with the dew of heaven,
00:16:12.77\00:16:14.94
and seven times
shall pass over you,
00:16:14.97\00:16:16.67
till you know that the Most High
rules in the kingdom of men,
00:16:16.71\00:16:19.44
and gives it to
whomever He chooses. "
00:16:19.47\00:16:21.14
And so, we see this
time period of seven years
00:16:21.18\00:16:23.78
which will be the
conditions of the banishment
00:16:23.81\00:16:26.51
and the king will have
to act like an animal...
00:16:26.55\00:16:29.22
will be like an
animal during this time
00:16:29.25\00:16:31.82
until he knows that
the Most High rules.
00:16:31.85\00:16:34.36
Mel: It's pretty powerful
message to receive, isn't it?
00:16:34.39\00:16:36.59
Clive: Yes.
00:16:36.62\00:16:37.96
Mel: A bit shocking...
so what assurance and advice
00:16:37.99\00:16:40.30
did Daniel give Nebuchadnezzar?
00:16:40.33\00:16:42.23
Blair: Yeah, if we keep reading
on here in verses 26 and 27,
00:16:42.26\00:16:45.67
it says, "And inasmuch
as they gave the command
00:16:45.70\00:16:48.10
to leave the stump
and the roots of the tree,
00:16:48.14\00:16:50.54
your kingdom
shall be assured to you,
00:16:50.57\00:16:52.87
after you come to know
that the Heaven rules. "
00:16:52.91\00:16:55.41
And verse 27,
"Therefore, O king,
00:16:55.44\00:16:57.38
let my advice be
acceptable to you;
00:16:57.41\00:16:59.25
break off your
sins by being righteous,
00:16:59.28\00:17:01.32
and your iniquities
00:17:01.35\00:17:03.49
and by showing
mercy to the poor.
00:17:03.52\00:17:05.05
Perhaps there
may be a lengthening
00:17:05.09\00:17:06.59
of your prosperity. "
00:17:06.62\00:17:07.96
And so, we see
the situation here
00:17:07.99\00:17:10.53
that his kingdom
is assured to him...
00:17:10.56\00:17:13.16
it said, "It will come back...
you'll acknowledge God...
00:17:13.19\00:17:15.06
this is an assurance... "
00:17:15.10\00:17:16.43
but then he gives some
advice and then he says,
00:17:16.46\00:17:18.40
"Turn away from your
sins and your wickedness...
00:17:18.43\00:17:20.44
turn to God. "
00:17:20.47\00:17:21.80
This is powerful
advice for us today.
00:17:21.84\00:17:23.54
Mel: That's right
and, of course, Jesus...
00:17:23.57\00:17:26.54
part of His mission was...
00:17:26.57\00:17:27.91
He has... He's
wanting to save everybody
00:17:27.94\00:17:31.25
so He's given Nebuchadnezzar
an opportunity hasn't He
00:17:31.28\00:17:33.85
to come to Him?
00:17:33.88\00:17:35.38
Yeah, absolutely, so I
just want to read from Daniel 4
00:17:35.58\00:17:38.95
and verses 29 and 30,
00:17:38.99\00:17:41.42
"All this came upon
King Nebuchadnezzar.
00:17:41.49\00:17:44.46
At the end of the twelve months
00:17:44.49\00:17:46.63
he was walking about in
the royal palace of Babylon. "
00:17:46.66\00:17:49.80
So, he's given a time
slot of 12 months here
00:17:49.86\00:17:52.93
where he can actually
bring about this change
00:17:52.97\00:17:56.00
but in verse 30,
"The king spoke saying,
00:17:56.04\00:17:58.94
'Is not this great Babylon,
00:17:58.97\00:18:01.28
that I have built
for a royal dwelling
00:18:01.31\00:18:03.18
by my mighty power
00:18:03.21\00:18:05.08
and for the
honor of my majesty?"
00:18:05.11\00:18:07.52
Ah, it's a pretty
strong statement isn't it?
00:18:07.55\00:18:09.65
So, Clive, does this spell the
end of the Babylonian Empire?
00:18:09.68\00:18:13.89
Clive: Well, history shows that
there was a son who took over
00:18:13.96\00:18:18.13
and there was a
grandson, you know,
00:18:18.16\00:18:19.49
so the empire did
go on after this time,
00:18:19.53\00:18:22.26
but I'm interested in the fact
that he was given 12 months,
00:18:22.30\00:18:26.03
it's like the
probationary period wasn't it
00:18:26.07\00:18:28.17
for him to...
to come his senses?
00:18:28.20\00:18:30.71
Mel: Yes.
00:18:30.74\00:18:32.07
Clive: I don't
think the dream was...
00:18:32.11\00:18:33.44
I think the dream
was a conditional one,
00:18:33.48\00:18:34.88
you know, he could
have actually turned aside
00:18:34.91\00:18:37.38
and acknowledged God
00:18:37.45\00:18:38.91
and not have gone into
this spirit of animal behavior.
00:18:38.95\00:18:42.38
Mel: Okay, so...
00:18:42.42\00:18:43.75
so what happens
when the seven years
00:18:43.79\00:18:46.55
of the animal
behavior is up, Clive?
00:18:46.59\00:18:49.69
Clive: Well, it
says in verse 34,
00:18:49.72\00:18:52.76
"And at the end of the
time I, Nebuchadnezzar,
00:18:52.79\00:18:55.16
lifted my eyes to heaven,
00:18:55.20\00:18:56.53
and my understanding
returned to me... "
00:18:56.56\00:18:59.23
and the significant thing is,
00:18:59.27\00:19:01.57
he says, "I
blessed the Most High... "
00:19:01.60\00:19:04.97
he's talking about Jehovah here,
00:19:05.01\00:19:06.84
not about Bel or Marduk
00:19:06.88\00:19:09.04
or any of the other
nine other gods that he had
00:19:09.08\00:19:12.38
but "he praised the Most High
00:19:12.41\00:19:15.08
and honored Him who lives
forever... the living God...
00:19:15.12\00:19:17.79
for His dominion is
an everlasting dominion,
00:19:17.82\00:19:20.86
and His kingdom is an
everlasting kingdom...
00:19:20.89\00:19:23.66
it's from
generation to generation. "
00:19:23.69\00:19:25.46
Mel: Yes, so Blair,
00:19:25.49\00:19:27.56
what happens when we
lift our eyes to heaven?
00:19:27.60\00:19:31.20
Blair: Yeah, well, James
chapter 4 verse 8 tells us...
00:19:31.23\00:19:34.40
it says, "Draw near to God
00:19:34.44\00:19:36.00
and He will draw near to you. "
00:19:36.04\00:19:37.57
As we lift our eyes to
heaven... as we acknowledge God,
00:19:37.61\00:19:40.78
He draws near to us
and we draw near to Him.
00:19:40.81\00:19:42.54
It's powerful.
00:19:42.58\00:19:43.91
Mel: Yes, it is indeed,
00:19:43.95\00:19:45.28
so, did God make
good on His promise
00:19:45.31\00:19:47.25
to restore Nebuchadnezzar?
00:19:47.28\00:19:48.88
Blair: Yeah,
well, yeah back in...
00:19:48.95\00:19:50.85
back in Daniel there...
we'll just try to find it here,
00:19:50.89\00:19:54.02
yeah, back in
Daniel chapter 4 verse 36
00:19:54.06\00:19:58.19
and 37... it says,
00:19:58.23\00:20:02.50
"At that time my
reason returned to me,
00:20:02.53\00:20:05.27
and for the glory of my kingdom,
00:20:05.30\00:20:06.84
my honor and
splendor returned to me.
00:20:06.87\00:20:09.07
My counselors and
nobles resorted to me,
00:20:09.10\00:20:11.14
and I was
restored to my kingdom,
00:20:11.17\00:20:12.51
and excellent
majesty was added to me. "
00:20:12.54\00:20:14.08
And it says, "Now
I, Nebuchadnezzar,
00:20:14.11\00:20:15.84
praise and exalt and
honor the King of heaven... "
00:20:15.88\00:20:18.01
Ah, so, yes, we see that
this promise that was made
00:20:18.05\00:20:20.88
at the end of the
chapter is... is fulfilled.
00:20:20.92\00:20:22.78
Mel: Yes, that's good
00:20:22.82\00:20:24.22
and of course, this
was about restore...
00:20:24.25\00:20:26.59
well, we say "restoring"
00:20:26.62\00:20:28.72
but in bringing him
to a knowledge of God
00:20:28.76\00:20:30.83
and he had this opportunity...
00:20:30.86\00:20:32.26
it came to him for
this restoration, didn't it?
00:20:32.29\00:20:34.53
Blair: And it shows
us the incredible lengths
00:20:34.56\00:20:36.77
that God will go
to to restore people
00:20:36.83\00:20:39.00
to be in favor with Him.
00:20:39.03\00:20:40.44
Mel: Yeah,
that's... that's amazing...
00:20:40.47\00:20:41.80
in the New Testament story,
00:20:41.84\00:20:43.74
you've got a jailor
talking to Paul and Silas
00:20:43.77\00:20:46.78
and I just wanted to read
a question that was asked...
00:20:46.84\00:20:50.28
that the jailor
actually asked and he said...
00:20:50.31\00:20:53.18
and this is in... in
Acts chapter 16 and verse 30,
00:20:53.21\00:20:57.42
he said, "Sirs, what
must I do to be saved?"
00:20:57.45\00:21:00.96
and the answer came to him,
00:21:00.99\00:21:02.86
"So they said, 'Believe
on the Lord Jesus Christ,
00:21:02.92\00:21:06.03
and you will be saved,
you and your household. '"
00:21:06.06\00:21:09.23
Now, Clive, is
salvation gained that easily...
00:21:09.26\00:21:12.37
just by believing?
00:21:12.40\00:21:13.74
Clive: Well, faith and action
go hand in hand, of course,
00:21:13.77\00:21:17.17
you know, but the
action or the "works"
00:21:17.21\00:21:19.97
if you'd like
to put it that way,
00:21:20.01\00:21:21.34
is... is something that
grows out of faith naturally,
00:21:21.38\00:21:23.91
it's not
something that saves us...
00:21:23.95\00:21:26.11
it's the faith that saves.
00:21:26.15\00:21:27.75
Now, look at Ephesians
chapter 2 verse 8, for example,
00:21:27.78\00:21:30.69
"For by grace you have
been saved through faith,
00:21:30.72\00:21:34.06
and that not of yourselves;
it is the gift of God. "
00:21:34.09\00:21:37.39
We don't earn gifts...
00:21:37.43\00:21:39.29
Mel: So, they're
given freely by God to us
00:21:39.33\00:21:42.93
but the action part of it is...
00:21:42.96\00:21:44.97
believing and then
following through with it.
00:21:45.00\00:21:47.90
Clive: Hmmm... Mel:
Yes, okay, that's...
00:21:47.94\00:21:49.27
Clive: And this is the
experience of Nebuchadnezzar,
00:21:49.30\00:21:51.44
he experienced a
change in his life
00:21:51.47\00:21:54.64
because of his "faith"
relationship with Daniel's God,
00:21:54.68\00:21:58.11
He became his God.
00:21:58.15\00:21:59.48
Mel: Yes indeed... indeed.
00:21:59.51\00:22:01.55
So, "Pride" has been
called the first sin,
00:22:01.58\00:22:04.49
so, where did Ezekiel find that
it was originated from, Clive?
00:22:04.52\00:22:09.12
Clive: Ah, well, you
are referring to the vision
00:22:09.16\00:22:14.80
that Ezekiel had,
that's chapter 28 of Ezekiel...
00:22:14.83\00:22:20.44
Mel: Verse 17...
00:22:20.47\00:22:21.80
Clive: Yes, verse 17...
"Your heart was lifted up... "
00:22:21.84\00:22:25.01
so, here's the
pride coming through...
00:22:25.04\00:22:26.61
"because of your beauty;
00:22:26.68\00:22:28.68
you corrupted your wisdom
for the sake of your splendor;
00:22:28.71\00:22:31.71
and so, because of that,
00:22:31.75\00:22:33.78
I cast you to the
ground... " He says.
00:22:33.82\00:22:36.55
He's talking about
the king of Tyre here
00:22:36.58\00:22:39.25
but it's really... behind it is
the symbol of Lucifer himself,
00:22:39.32\00:22:42.72
of Satan... he was
lifted up... he became proud.
00:22:42.76\00:22:46.66
Mel: Yes, so that
word "proud" or "pride... "
00:22:46.70\00:22:49.43
Clive: And certainly
Nebuchadnezzar, I think, had it
00:22:49.46\00:22:52.07
had a big dose
of pride, didn't he?
00:22:52.10\00:22:54.37
"Is this not this
great Babylon... "
00:22:54.40\00:22:56.64
Mel: That's right, "Is not... "
00:22:56.67\00:22:58.01
he... he built this
enormous kingdom, hadn't he?
00:22:58.04\00:22:59.97
and in one spot I was
reading... it talked...
00:23:00.01\00:23:02.38
"as far as the eye
can see from east to west
00:23:02.41\00:23:04.45
and north to south... "
00:23:04.48\00:23:05.81
he could claim
it as his territory.
00:23:05.85\00:23:07.88
Clive: Yeah, well
the problem with it was
00:23:07.92\00:23:10.35
that God gave him the
dominion and the power
00:23:10.39\00:23:13.36
but Nebuchadnezzar
took the credit to himself.
00:23:13.39\00:23:16.32
Mel: And so, what are we saying?
00:23:16.36\00:23:18.09
That God is in control
of kings and universes...
00:23:18.16\00:23:21.93
in the universe... I mean...
00:23:21.96\00:23:23.50
the powers... the governments...
00:23:23.53\00:23:24.87
is that what we're leading to?
00:23:24.90\00:23:26.23
Clive: Well, that's what
the Bible says, doesn't it?
00:23:26.27\00:23:28.54
"I will raise kings
and I'll put them down. "
00:23:28.57\00:23:30.81
Mel: Yes... yes...
and this is an example,
00:23:30.84\00:23:32.91
of course, of that happening,
00:23:32.94\00:23:34.28
so, we're talking
about "Pride" here, Blair,
00:23:34.31\00:23:37.41
what makes it so dangerous?
00:23:37.45\00:23:39.55
Blair: Yeah, pride is
dangerous for many reasons
00:23:39.58\00:23:42.08
but I suppose one reason is
that it puts us in a position
00:23:42.12\00:23:45.55
where we forget the dependence
00:23:45.62\00:23:47.92
that we have on God for
absolutely everything...
00:23:47.96\00:23:49.72
for life... for
breath... for everything...
00:23:49.76\00:23:51.56
and when we are in a position
00:23:51.59\00:23:53.29
where we're not aware
of our dependence on God,
00:23:53.33\00:23:55.90
that's actually very dangerous
spiritual ground to be.
00:23:55.96\00:23:59.07
Clive: Do you think that...
that this is a temptation
00:23:59.10\00:24:02.20
for people who
are in power today?
00:24:02.24\00:24:04.67
No, I think it's a
political power... for example?
00:24:04.71\00:24:08.38
Their egos can come to the fore.
00:24:08.41\00:24:11.41
Mel: Well, we're not
pointing any fingers,
00:24:11.45\00:24:13.68
but just watch
the news a little bit
00:24:13.72\00:24:16.18
and you start to draw
that conclusion, don't you?
00:24:16.22\00:24:18.45
Clive: It can be a temptation.
00:24:18.49\00:24:19.95
Mel: And it can be an ego push
to... to glorify themselves.
00:24:19.99\00:24:23.56
Clive: Yeah, if you're
successful in business...
00:24:23.59\00:24:25.53
you become wealthy...
00:24:25.56\00:24:27.50
Mel: What about
at a personal level?
00:24:27.53\00:24:29.43
Is that an issue as well?
00:24:29.46\00:24:31.83
Clive: I think we
all struggle with that.
00:24:31.87\00:24:34.77
It's pretty well said isn't it
00:24:34.80\00:24:38.44
that the word S I N...
sin... what's the middle letter?
00:24:38.47\00:24:41.88
Mel: "I" Clive:
It is... it is "I"
00:24:41.91\00:24:43.68
Mel: You see, Blair,
I'm coming to you with this,
00:24:43.71\00:24:45.25
why is it so difficult
for humans to become humble?
00:24:45.28\00:24:50.05
Blair: Yeah, look, if you
turn with me to James chapter 4
00:24:50.09\00:24:54.32
and we read
verse 5 through to 7,
00:24:54.36\00:24:56.56
it says... oh, let's
just pick up in verse 6 here,
00:24:56.59\00:24:59.86
it says, "God resists the proud,
but gives grace to the humble.
00:24:59.89\00:25:03.60
Therefore, submit to God.
00:25:03.63\00:25:05.33
Resist the devil and
he will flee from you. "
00:25:05.37\00:25:08.40
And look at verse
10 there, it says,
00:25:08.44\00:25:09.77
"Humble yourselves in
the sight of the Lord,
00:25:09.80\00:25:11.14
and He will lift you up. "
00:25:11.17\00:25:12.57
It's... it's... you know,
00:25:12.61\00:25:13.98
humility is
something that's hard to do
00:25:14.01\00:25:15.84
because inside all of us,
we have a desire for praise...
00:25:15.88\00:25:18.15
for accolades...
00:25:18.18\00:25:20.02
but... but God's
telling us here in His Word
00:25:20.05\00:25:22.08
that He's asking us to, I guess,
have a position of humble...
00:25:22.12\00:25:26.09
humble ourselves
in the sight of God.
00:25:26.15\00:25:27.79
I love how Jesus says
it in Matthew chapter 23
00:25:27.82\00:25:32.19
and picking up in
verse 12, it says,
00:25:32.26\00:25:34.96
"Whoever exalts
himself will be humbled,
00:25:35.00\00:25:37.67
but he who humbles
himself will be exalted. "
00:25:37.70\00:25:40.10
And so, we see the
principles of God's kingdom
00:25:40.14\00:25:42.50
operate very differently
00:25:42.54\00:25:44.01
from the
principles of Satan's kingdom,
00:25:44.04\00:25:45.37
where he was trying to exalt
himself... raise himself up...
00:25:45.44\00:25:47.68
God's principles are
very much different to that.
00:25:47.74\00:25:51.41
Mel: Yes, and so when we come
under the influence of Jesus,
00:25:51.45\00:25:55.28
we are humbled before Him.
00:25:55.35\00:25:58.12
Clive: I believe so.
00:25:58.15\00:25:59.49
Mel: Absolutely, that's good.
00:25:59.52\00:26:00.86
Clive: It was a
pervasive experience
00:26:00.89\00:26:02.22
for Nebuchadnezzar, wasn't it?
00:26:02.26\00:26:03.59
Mel: Yes, it was.
00:26:03.63\00:26:04.96
Clive: Along the way...
as you read those texts,
00:26:04.99\00:26:06.39
he acknowledged the God
00:26:06.46\00:26:07.90
but it really
didn't impact him totally.
00:26:07.93\00:26:09.86
Blair: Well you
can see in that text,
00:26:09.90\00:26:11.73
God resists the proud...
00:26:11.80\00:26:13.13
you know, we can see
that in this story...
00:26:13.17\00:26:15.10
Nebuchadnezzar being resisted
00:26:15.14\00:26:18.04
but then, through that
gives grace to the humble.
00:26:18.07\00:26:20.08
Mel: Yes, that's right...
00:26:20.11\00:26:21.51
So it took
Nebuchadnezzar a long time
00:26:21.54\00:26:23.48
and a lot of experience he
had before he submitted to God.
00:26:23.51\00:26:26.41
Clive, what lessons
can we learn from this?
00:26:26.45\00:26:29.75
Clive: Well, I like the
words of the Lord to Solomon
00:26:29.78\00:26:33.66
in 2nd Chronicles 7 verse 14,
00:26:33.69\00:26:36.42
"If My people who
are called by My name
00:26:36.46\00:26:39.19
will humble themselves,
and pray and seek My face,
00:26:39.23\00:26:43.20
and turn from their wicked ways,
then I will hear from heaven,
00:26:43.23\00:26:46.17
and will forgive their sin... "
00:26:46.23\00:26:47.87
Blair: Yeah, powerful...
00:26:47.90\00:26:49.47
Mel: Yeah, it's a
coming to God in humility
00:26:49.50\00:26:52.77
on our knees asking
Him to take care of that
00:26:52.81\00:26:56.08
and to play a role in that.
00:26:56.11\00:26:57.45
Clive: Hebrews says,
"Looking unto Jesus... "
00:26:57.48\00:26:58.81
Mel: Yes, absolutely,
00:26:58.85\00:27:00.32
"the author and
finisher of our faith. "
00:27:00.35\00:27:03.45
Well, our time's
just about gone today
00:27:03.49\00:27:06.22
and in Psalm 103
and verse 19, it says,
00:27:06.25\00:27:08.92
"The Lord has established
His throne in heaven,
00:27:08.99\00:27:11.86
and His kingdom
rules over all. "
00:27:11.89\00:27:14.26
Nebuchadnezzar
came to understand this
00:27:14.30\00:27:17.27
and we too can
bow humbly before God
00:27:17.30\00:27:20.14
and praise Him
for His gift of grace
00:27:20.17\00:27:23.00
Jesus Christ our Savior...
00:27:23.04\00:27:25.41
so, thank you for
joining us on: Let God Speak.
00:27:25.44\00:27:28.41
You can view all past programs
and download the Teacher's Notes
00:27:28.44\00:27:32.88
from our website:
3abnaustralia. org. au
00:27:32.91\00:27:37.39
We welcome your e-mails
on: Lgs@3abnaustralia. org. au
00:27:37.45\00:27:44.19
God bless.
00:27:44.23\00:27:45.56