(inspirational theme music)
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>>Welcome to "Sabbath School,"
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brought to you by It Is Written.
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We're continuing
our study this week
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on the subject of "Death,
Dying, and the Future Hope."
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And this week we are
looking at lesson number 10,
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"The Fires of Hell." Now,
lest you be terribly concerned
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and turn off and
stop watching right now,
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I will encourage you
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that there is good
news in this subject;
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in fact, there is
phenomenal news in this subject,
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and we're going to dig into it
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and understand it better today
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with the help of the author
of the Sabbath school lesson,
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Dr. Alberto Timm.
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He is an associate director
of the Ellen G. White Estate.
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Alberto, welcome back.
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>>I am honored to be with you.
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>>So we are on
lesson number 10 now.
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We've got four more to go,
and here in lesson number 10,
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we're hitting the fires of hell.
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We've covered a
lot of ground already.
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We've got a
pretty good understanding
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of what happens at
death and why it happens
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and its origins and so forth,
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but now we're looking at,
well, eternal death for some.
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And it's a subject that, well,
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maybe isn't the top of the list
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for people to delve
into for an uplifting study,
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but maybe it ought to be.
But before we dig in to it,
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I wanna kinda
reference a sermon,
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probably one of the most
famous sermons on this subject.
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It--I will
suggest that it's perhaps
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a little misguided,
perhaps a lot misguided,
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and yet one of the most
famous ones on this subject.
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It was preached in the
year 1741 by Jonathan Edwards:
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"Sinners in the
Hands of an Angry God."
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Doesn't sound very
pleasant, but what was the--
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tell us a little bit
more about this sermon.
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What was in it?
What was behind it?
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Help us understand this.
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>>Well, this
famous sermon was preached
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by Jonathan Edwards,
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and he was a
Congregationalist theologian
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and revivalist, and he
preached it for the first time--
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because he
repeated it other times--
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but the first time that he
preached was in July 8, 1741,
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in a town in Connecticut.
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And he was speaking
in this one, really,
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that all of us
are condemned to hell.
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It would not be for
the sake of God's mercy,
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would fall into
hell and will be consumed
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by the fires, and he
dramatized it very much,
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saying that there was
just a little tiny quarter--
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whatever you would
call that--holds you
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from the fires of hell.
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If it breaks, really, you
are there for all eternity.
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And so he dramatized it so much
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that people raised from the pew
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and embraced the
columns, some of them,
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the columns of the church
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that hold the roof
of the church there,
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begging and
shouting--and so loudly--
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and asking for
God's mercy to hold them,
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avoiding them to go
to hell. It was so loud
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that he could not
even finish his sermon,
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and that became famous
because of the negative.
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If today people speak
a lot about God's love,
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that one was the
opposite one, really,
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speaking of
justice that would punish
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the wicked in the
flames of hell forever,
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forever and ever, for all
eternity. Can you imagine?
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>>So I'm gonna
ask the next question.
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I--maybe part of
the answer is obvious,
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but what kind of an
impact did that sermon have?
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I think part of the answer is
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we're talking
about it now in 2022.
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So clearly it had an impact,
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but what are some other elements
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of the impact
that that sermon had
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and continues to
have in the world today?
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>>Actually, we have
to consider something.
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That is not the first
time that such a message
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was really portrayed.
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And I have a few
books with me here--
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maybe you saw it
before--from Plato.
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You have one,
it's called "Phaedo,"
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and the other one is "Phaedrus."
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And some people confuse the two.
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They believe that they
are exactly the same book.
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No, it just changes a
little bit, the title here,
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but both of them deal with this.
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But the idea of hell
is an ancient pagan idea
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that was really very much
shaped into Greek philosophy.
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And so Plato,
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recording the words of Socrates,
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he portrays hell in this way,
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where after that you go over
there, and you are punished.
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And so this is not the
only one; there are other ones.
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Some people
say--at least one author,
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and I think that he is right--
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the idea of a always-burning
hell comes, is a mixture,
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is of Greek mythology
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with northern European paganism.
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And that really helped.
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And this came into
Christianity, basically,
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during the Hellenistic period
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and the influence
during the Roman Empire,
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and it was quite used,
really, to scare people.
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So I would never
leave the ancient
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or medieval church because
if I would leave the church,
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I would go to hell
almost immediately after that.
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So in other
words, that was a way
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to keep members or believers
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faithful to the
church by means of fear.
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And so this idea
continues till now.
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Of course, many
Christian theologians
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are trying to
accommodate a little bit
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and saying, "Well,
this idea of eternal,
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always-burning hell, we
will finally have a end."
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And so the idea of all
eternity is not so much popular,
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but the idea of burning
over there still remains.
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>>It's kind of an
interesting contrast or dilemma
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that Christians face in
accepting an eternally-burning
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hell because if that's the
case, if hell does burn forever,
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and if people in
hell are tortured forever,
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then that would mean
that God is miraculously
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keeping sin in
existence, throughout eternity,
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which is difficult to
reconcile with a God of love.
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And yet many Christians are
trying to find ways to do that.
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It's fascinating.
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>>So, in other words, yes,
you are right, because all life,
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whether of the righteous
or the wicked, comes from God.
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We cannot create
life. Life comes from Him.
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So why He
continue providing life
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for people to be
punished forever in hell?
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So it seems one of the
consequences of this view
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is that would,
after the new heaven
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and the new
earth will be in place,
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and God promised, "I
will make everything new,"
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that is not the
case; it's not everything,
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some things, because
there still would continue
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a hell burning over there.
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And in other words, God would
keep in the universe somewhere
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a penal camp.
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Well, (chuckles) I don't think
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that this is part of God's plan.
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>>You know, it also, this
idea of an eternally-burning
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or an
ever-burning hell also negates
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probably the most famous
scripture in the entire Bible,
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at least the most quoted
scripture in the entire Bible,
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and that's John 3:16, says that
"For God so loved the world,
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"that He gave His
only begotten Son,
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"that whosoever believeth in Him
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[would] not perish,
but have everlasting life."
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So there are two choices there,
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either
everlasting life or perishing,
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and perishing is not the
same as everlasting life.
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So it's an interesting challenge
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that many Christians hopefully
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will face sooner
or later to realize
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that this teaching
doesn't have a biblical basis.
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Now, some Christians have
come against this idea that,
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this unpleasant idea
that God keeps sinners
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roasting throughout
eternity, and they say,
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"Well, we can't stomach
that. We can't have that
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"because we still
believe that God is love,
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and we can't
seem to reconcile it."
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So this idea of
purgatory came into existence.
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Talk a little bit about
purgatory. What supposedly is
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it? What's its purpose?
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And is there any
evidence for it in the Bible?
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>>Well, the concept of purgatory
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has its origin in
Greek philosophy as well.
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It's surprisingly--much of
our thought is shaped by them,
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to such extent that one
historian even says that
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we think the way we do
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because the Greek
thought the way they did.
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So in other words, we
are our Western culture
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and even Christianity,
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exported to the
non-Western world,
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also was much shaped
by this kind of thinking.
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So the idea of purgatory
comes from Plato as well,
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where you go there, you
are being punished over there,
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and so in other
words, for Greek philosophy,
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if you were
purified, "purified,"
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by philosophy, or if
you were a philosopher,
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you would go
directly to the paradise,
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to the main place--using
our language today, "paradise,"
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they had other ones; I
don't want to complicate it--
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would go there; otherwise
you would have to purify
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in a certain purgatory there.
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And this idea was incorporated
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by the Christian world
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under the influence
of the Greco world empire
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and also the Hellenistic period.
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And so that has been
one of the main points.
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And to that they
added another element.
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This is the element
of praying for the souls
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in purgatory. And that
has also a pagan origin,
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and you have one of
the apocryphal books
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that speaks about this, but
not a canonical Bible, really,
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as we understand,
has that kind of notion.
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So in other words,
to make the story short,
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there is a purgatory, if
you are not a saint or a martyr,
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then you go. First,
the intermediate state
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would be the purgatory,
and people who are alive today,
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some of your friends or
relatives can pray for you
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and even pay some kind
of money for the church,
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and by doing so, you can
lower a little bit of sufferings
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of the purgatory.
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So that even became,
in the days of Luther,
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a way of making much money.
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And you remember that in Germany
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you have Johann Tetzel
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that was the famous
indulgence seller over there
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to lower the payment of--
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I mean the
punishment--in the purgatory.
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>>"When a coin
in the coffer rings,
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a soul from purgatory
springs." (Dr. Timm laughing)
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It has kind of a
lyrical element to it.
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Sounds great, not
particularly biblical, though.
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And a lot of things that
even much of Christianity today
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also believes, well, at
least to some extent or another,
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sounds great, but
as you dig into it,
00:12:30.51\00:12:32.88
it doesn't make a lot of sense,
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and it's certainly not biblical.
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The beautiful
thing about God's Word
00:12:35.32\00:12:37.55
is if we
understand it correctly,
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it is
understandable, it's reasonable,
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and it's filled with hope.
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And that really
is one of the reasons
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why we're spending 14
weeks looking at the subject
00:12:47.76\00:12:51.30
"On Death, Dying,
and the Future Hope."
00:12:51.30\00:12:53.94
It's so that we can
have the right perspective
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and a hope on
things in this world.
00:12:56.47\00:12:59.77
I want to encourage you again,
00:12:59.77\00:13:00.84
if you haven't already done so,
00:13:00.84\00:13:02.08
I know I bring
this up every week,
00:13:02.08\00:13:04.01
but my hope is that
you will get this book,
00:13:04.01\00:13:06.92
"On Death, Dying,
and the Future Hope."
00:13:06.92\00:13:08.62
It's the companion
book to the quarterly study
00:13:08.62\00:13:11.79
that you're doing right now.
00:13:11.79\00:13:13.05
It adds so much more
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and is great for
sharing your faith as well.
00:13:14.96\00:13:17.89
You can pick this
up at itiswritten.shop.
00:13:17.89\00:13:21.23
Again, that's itiswritten.shop,
00:13:21.23\00:13:23.10
"On Death, Dying,
and the Future Hope"
00:13:23.10\00:13:24.97
by author Alberto Timm.
00:13:24.97\00:13:26.50
We're going to be
back in just a moment,
00:13:26.50\00:13:28.40
and we're going
to continue this look
00:13:28.40\00:13:30.44
at the subject of
hell. We'll be right back.
00:13:30.44\00:13:32.71
(inspirational theme
music swells and ends)
00:13:32.71\00:13:35.71
(ominous music)
00:13:37.61\00:13:38.98
>>[John Bradshaw] The
idea continues to fill people
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with dread.
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People all around the
world live in fear of hell.
00:13:42.12\00:13:47.19
But what did Jesus say about it?
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(rhythmic chime music)
00:13:49.99\00:13:51.06
What does the Bible
actually say about hell?
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And how can we separate
the fact from the fiction?
00:13:55.60\00:13:59.00
(rhythmic chime
and marimba music)
00:13:59.00\00:14:00.44
Join me in the beautiful
Caribbean for "To Hell and
00:14:00.44\00:14:04.97
Back." We'll go to
Hell, and we'll come back,
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and while we are there,
00:14:08.48\00:14:09.84
we'll discover what the
Word of God actually says
00:14:09.84\00:14:12.68
about this
vitally important subject.
00:14:12.68\00:14:15.78
Is it as bad as people
think? Maybe it's worse.
00:14:15.78\00:14:19.69
Or perhaps, perhaps God has
a special message in the Bible
00:14:19.69\00:14:24.43
enabling us to
see the love of God,
00:14:24.43\00:14:27.13
even in the fires of hell.
00:14:27.13\00:14:29.23
(soft piano music)
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Don't miss "To Hell and Back,"
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brought to you
by It Is Written TV.
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(inspirational theme music)
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>>Welcome back
to "Sabbath School,"
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brought to you by It Is Written.
00:14:44.01\00:14:46.11
This week we are
looking at "The Fires of Hell"
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and looking for hope and
encouragement in this subject,
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and I think we're finding it,
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and we're going to continue
to in this final segment
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of today's study. You
know, it's important, Alberto,
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as we look at this subject
that we're looking at today,
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as well as the greater subject
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that we're covering
this quarter on death,
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to not be judgemental.
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You know,
sometimes it can be tempting
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when we say,
"Here's what the Bible says,
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"but, oh, there's so
many other people out there
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who don't believe this,"
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there's a
temptation to be judgemental
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and maybe to feel
some sense of superiority
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that we have the
truth and that they don't,
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or something like that.
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That may not be the
healthiest perspective, though.
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What do you think?
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>>Yes, that is the case.
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We are here to evaluate ideas
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from a biblical perspective.
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So it's not to judge people
or churches or denominations
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because each one
has his or her own view.
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But I understand that
we are here with a mission,
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and the mission is to
dig into the Word of God
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as much as we can,
not only by comparing
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or to endorsing
what we believe or not,
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but to also
contrast with some views
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that we understand
from our perspective,
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from our study of the Bible,
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that do not fit
into the overall,
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the consensus of Scripture.
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>>So we're looking at hell
right now and also at purgatory.
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Why was this concept,
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this understanding
of hell and of purgatory
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popular in the post-apostolic
era of the church?
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And you mentioned that it came
out, at least portions of it,
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came out of Plato and
Socrates and so forth,
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but does this idea
have any biblical support?
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Where does the idea come from,
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if it's supposedly
based on the Bible?
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>>Well, actually, they
tried to read the Bible.
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As I mentioned before, at
the beginning of our series,
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people try to read the Bible
from their own perspective,
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their worldview, our
lenses, our philosophy,
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our ideology, and so
on. If you have a framework,
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you want to make everything
fit into that framework,
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unless you change the paradigm.
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And in our case, we
have a paradigm as well,
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and I hope that our
paradigm is the Bible.
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So what happened
with the Christian world
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is after the
death of the apostles,
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and in the post-apostolic era,
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when Christianity
moved away from Palestine
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into the Roman,
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Greco-Roman culture,
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they absorbed many
elements because we usually
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are children of
some kind of society,
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of our culture,
and to some degree,
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Christianity was able to
hold its biblical identity.
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But more and
more, to be accepted
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by the philosophical
world of that time,
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they tried to reread the Bible
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from a allegorical perspective
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and incorporated some elements.
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And, of course, this is
a very significant point
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that I would like to
make. It's the following:
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The New Testament uses
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the Greek language,
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words that were
part of classical Greek,
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although, of course,
it was the popular Greek,
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called Koine, and
not the classical one,
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but words--but you
have to remember something.
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The New Testament uses words
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of the language
available at that time,
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but not with a
classical philosophical meaning,
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but the background to understand
the New Testament words
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were the Old
Testament, the Hebrew mind,
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not the Greek
mindset but a Hebrew mindset,
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but using the language,
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some people would
probably read into the Bible
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the Greek meaning to it.
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And I don't want to
complicate very much to this,
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but remember, this
Paul not speak about:
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body, spirit,
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and
soul--something like that, yes?
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I can say, well, this is
the same as the Greeks spoke.
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Well, for the
Greeks, they can be
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that kind of dichotomic approach
where you're separating,
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so there is a
surviving soul after that,
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but from a biblical
perspective, no; it's that
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this meant, like,
spirit is the whole,
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with emphasis in this part,
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the whole with
emphasis in my body or soul,
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never disconnected.
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So this kind of process
of trying to read the Bible
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through the Hellenistic mind
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is that brought not only
this kind of dichotomic approach
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of a spirit or soul
surviving the Bible--
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I mean, the death of the body--
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but also the idea
of everlasting hell.
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And there is something
that I would just like to add.
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Of course the Bible speak
of the fire that never get--
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that will always burn, or so on.
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Remember, that
the word "eternal"
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in the original Bible languages,
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it has always a meaning
that is attached to whatever,
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the meaning
depends on the context.
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When the word
"eternal" is applied to God,
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who never had a beginning
and never will have an end,
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then it means
something that will never cease.
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When it's to the
fire, the eternal fire,
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what it means, really, is
that the fire will continue
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till
accomplishes the destruction,
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will not really
go out before that,
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will continue till
then, and the consequences
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will be eternal as well.
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So does not mean that the
fire itself will continue.
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But then you can ask me, Eric,
where did you get this idea?
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Well, if you go to
the epistle of Jude,
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you will see something
there, that Sodom and Gomorrah
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are symbols of
the everlasting fire.
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Are they, those cities, still
burning in the Middle East?
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No. But they were destroyed.
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So the fire is
"eternal" in or "everlasting"
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in the sense
that will accomplish
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what is intended to accomplish.
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>>So if we come to the
Bible with a presupposition,
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a worldview, a perspective
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that lends us to
think that hellfire
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burns throughout eternity
because we've been influenced
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by Hellenistic beliefs
over time and so forth,
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and then we read
words in the Bible
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like "everlasting
fire" or "eternal fire,"
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we automatically start to think
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that that fire is
going to be forever,
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that it's not going to
go out, but if instead,
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we simply let the
Bible speak directly to us,
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without that preconceived idea,
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then we get a little clearer
picture of what's going on.
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What are some of
the implications,
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if the Bible did speak
of an everlasting fire,
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if a hellfire that never ends,
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what are some of the
implications of that,
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if that were true?
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>>Well, there are
several that we could mention,
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and, of course,
for the sake of time,
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I will just
mention a few of them.
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But one of them, the
main one in my understanding,
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it really
damages God's character.
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In other words, if God is love
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and is just,
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the idea of a everlasting
punishment for the wicked
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is something
absolutely un-proportional.
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In other words,
what do I mean by this?
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Let's suppose a child
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that was not a good one
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dies at 12 years of age,
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was not that bad, not a
criminal or something like that,
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but a child that did not
have any interest in religion.
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Why should that child be
punished for the 12 years?
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Well, even less than 12 years,
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till the age of reason started,
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but for those few years,
throughout the whole eternity
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in a huge fire, in
the flames of hell--
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is this not something
unjust from the part of God?
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Usually a sentence,
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even in our own
justice courthouses
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or so, is
proportional to the guilt
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or to whatever the person did.
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It's not out of this kind.
So I think that in this case,
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God would be putting a--
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will be providing a punishment
completely out of proportion.
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Another point is,
if they are punished,
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immediately after death,
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then the final
judgment does not make sense.
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Why to release somebody
from the punishment of hell
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to bring here to be
resurrected, as the Bible says?
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Because the resurrection
is not only for the righteous,
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is for the wicked also,
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according to
Revelation, chapter 20.
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Why to bring here to be judged
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and to send back again
to the same fires of hell
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to be punished? This
is something absolutely
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unreasonable.
And so in this case,
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I think that we
have to reverse it.
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We have enough
Bible evidences that say
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that each one
would be punished--
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and this, I am referring again
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to Revelation 20--will be
punished according to their
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works. It's not something--"Now
I will be punishing with all
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power throughout eternity."
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No. And there will be a
time, according to Malachi,
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chapter 4, verse 1,
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where there will be
left nothing from the wicked.
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They will be
absolutely destroyed.
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So God has a better plan.
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He will punish them
because they deserve it,
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and that was their choice,
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but it will be
proportional to their works,
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and this is
absolutely clear from the Bible.
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We have no doubts about this.
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>>So if I
understand you correctly,
00:26:03.79\00:26:05.39
what you said is the wicked
00:26:05.39\00:26:06.83
will one day
experience hellfire,
00:26:06.83\00:26:10.97
but it's not
going to be a hellfire
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that lasts throughout
eternity, it's limited in time,
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and the purpose of
it is to destroy sin
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and any sinners who
choose to cling to that sin,
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but ultimately, the
sinners are going to be reduced
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to ashes and dust, and
never will they be anymore.
00:26:28.58\00:26:30.99
Is that correct?
00:26:30.99\00:26:31.85
>>Exactly.
00:26:31.85\00:26:32.95
>>All right, so
that gives us a picture
00:26:32.95\00:26:34.72
of God not keeping sin in
existence throughout eternity,
00:26:34.72\00:26:38.96
but ultimately bringing
sin, bringing suffering,
00:26:38.96\00:26:42.53
bringing rebellion,
bringing pain to an end,
00:26:42.53\00:26:46.87
and even the devil himself.
00:26:46.87\00:26:49.14
The Bible talks about God
kindling a supernatural fire
00:26:49.14\00:26:52.21
in the midst of the
devil and turning him
00:26:52.21\00:26:54.54
to ashes and smoke, and
never would he be anymore.
00:26:54.54\00:26:58.35
So even the instigator
of all this, ultimately,
00:26:58.35\00:27:00.92
is not going to
suffer without end.
00:27:00.92\00:27:04.22
He's going to be turned
to ashes and smoke as well.
00:27:04.22\00:27:07.09
The positive side of all
this is from that point forward,
00:27:07.09\00:27:11.03
there's going to be peace
and serenity and happiness
00:27:11.03\00:27:14.73
and joy throughout
the entire universe
00:27:14.73\00:27:17.27
and iniquity "will not
rise up a second time."
00:27:17.27\00:27:20.30
That's encouraging to me.
00:27:20.30\00:27:21.67
I hope that it's
encouraging to you.
00:27:21.67\00:27:24.74
Next week, when we come back,
00:27:24.74\00:27:25.97
we're going to
continue our journey
00:27:25.97\00:27:28.31
through this subject of "Death,
Dying, and the Future Hope."
00:27:28.31\00:27:32.88
And my hope and prayer is that
00:27:32.88\00:27:34.38
as we've gone
through week by week,
00:27:34.38\00:27:36.58
you have been blessed
and your understanding
00:27:36.58\00:27:38.82
has been opened
just a little bit more
00:27:38.82\00:27:40.52
and you've been able
to see a clearer picture
00:27:40.52\00:27:42.62
of a God who loves you.
We'll be back again next week
00:27:42.62\00:27:45.89
here on "Sabbath School,"
brought to you by It Is Written.
00:27:45.89\00:27:49.10
We look forward to
seeing you then. God bless you.
00:27:49.10\00:27:51.97
(inspirational theme music)
00:27:51.97\00:27:55.70
(music ends)
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