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Series Code: IIWR
Program Code: IIWR001473A
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01:30 ♪[Theme music]♪
01:40 ♪[Theme music]♪ 01:49 >>John: This is It Is Written. I'm John Bradshaw. 01:51 Thanks for joining me for 500, 01:54 our series of programs looking at the Reformation: 01:56 what it was, and what it means to us today. 01:59 And my guest in this program, “The Celtic Connection,” 02:03 is Dr. David Trim. 02:04 He's the head of archives for the world church, 02:06 the Seventh-day Adventist church, 02:08 and a Reformation historian. 02:09 Dr. Trim, thanks for joining me. 02:10 >>Dr. David Trim: Thanks, John, it's a pleasure to be with you. 02:12 >>John: We'll be looking at the times and the ministry 02:14 of the man known as St. Patrick. 02:16 Interesting times those, weren't they? 02:18 >>Dr. Trim: Times of catastrophe and extraordinary violence, 02:22 uh, times we hope never recur. 02:24 But, uh, there are undoubtedly lessons from them for today. 02:28 >>John: Now, before our program, “The Celtic Connection,” 02:30 and before I speak more with Dr. David Trim, 02:32 I'd like you to come with me to Ireland. 02:35 Ireland we found to be a beautiful place. 02:38 It's endlessly historic. 02:40 It's fascinating. 02:41 The people are wonderful. 02:43 And we discovered it's a land of miracles. 02:46 While our It Is Written team 02:47 was filming on the west coast of Ireland, 02:50 at the Cliffs of Moher, indescribably beautiful, 02:55 we saw God do something amazing. 02:58 We know that nothing is impossible with God, 02:59 so we shouldn't be surprised. 03:02 But this was pretty impressive, and it saved our day's filming. 03:08 Okay, let's go. 03:09 A couple of friends I'd like you to meet, 03:10 and we've got a story to tell you. 03:13 I had the good fortune of being in Ireland, 03:15 in fact, across Europe, with Zach Kast and Matt Disbro. 03:18 Now, guys, before we talk about the miracle in Ireland, 03:22 tell me what struck you about the reformation 03:24 as we looked at it. 03:25 >>Zach: Uh, I think one of the things that, 03:27 that struck me was that it's, 03:29 uh, treated very blithely right now. 03:31 Um, not really anyone cares. 03:34 No one really cares. 03:35 >>John: We saw a lot of monuments, a lot of places, 03:37 a lot of historic sites, and a lot of people just walking by. 03:39 >>Zach: Yeah. 03:41 >>John: Without even knowing what they're looking at. 03:41 Matt, what about you? 03:43 >>Matt: Uh, it's actually a really similar thing 03:44 that struck me too, just, 03:46 whenever we went somewhere and it was a very significant place 03:50 in relation to the Reformation, 03:51 um, people just didn't seem to know what it was. 03:55 >>John: You remember the ladies who were walking past, uh, 03:57 the William Tyndale church, didn't have a clue. 04:00 Even the man who lives across the street. 04:02 You remember the guy who came out when the drone was out. 04:04 He wanted to know what was going on. 04:06 Was shocked to discover that William Tyndale 04:07 had something to do with his village. 04:09 And he lived virtually across the street 04:10 from the Tyndale church. 04:11 >>Matt: And an interesting note, too: 04:13 he was very interested in it. 04:15 It's just, he didn't know. 04:16 And that was, the people of the church too, right? 04:18 >>John: Yeah, didn't have a clue. 04:20 >>Zach & Matt: Yeah. 04:21 >>John: Fascinating. 04:21 Now, Ireland. 04:23 We'll get to the miracle story in just a moment. 04:24 What struck you about Ireland? Zach? 04:26 >>Zach: Ireland is extremely beautiful. 04:29 Um, I kind of went into it thinking, 04:30 oh yeah, I'm going to like Ireland. 04:31 And when I left, I realized I loved it. 04:34 >>John: A beautiful place. 04:35 Great people. 04:35 What about you, Matt? 04:36 >>Matt: Well, before I had not been there, 04:39 and I was told it was supposed to be extremely wet and rainy. 04:42 And when we were there, it was an extremely sunny, 04:45 like beautiful week. 04:46 >>John: You know, we were fortunate. 04:48 We were there for several days. 04:49 And it rains in Ireland. 04:51 It could have rained every day. 04:52 I don't know what we'd have done if it'd rained every day. 04:54 But we got to a few places in Ireland. 04:56 We started off in Dublin. 04:57 We arrived in Dublin. 04:58 Made our way to Belfast. 04:59 I'll tell you what, I'll tell you what struck me. 05:02 You know, I grew up during the “Troubles.” 05:05 And, uh, to go to Belfast and walk along the Falls Road 05:08 and see the mural of Bobby Sands, the hunger striker, 05:11 and go to the cemetery where Sands and others are buried, 05:14 that was interesting. 05:15 You'll remember while we were at the Bobby Sands, 05:18 uh, mural, three families in about 10 or 15 minutes came 05:22 by and had photographs taken with Sands in the background, 05:24 the image of Sands. 05:26 So people haven't forgotten. 05:27 I'm not suggesting that they should. 05:28 But those "Troubles" 05:29 are still fresh in the minds of a lot of people. 05:31 Fascinating. 05:32 Okay, the miracle story. 05:35 We've got a video to show. 05:36 Why don't we take a look at that, 05:38 and then we'll walk through what took place 05:40 on the west coast of Ireland at the Cliffs of Moher. 05:43 Ok, have a look at this and we'll walk you through it. 05:45 All right, the Cliffs of Moher. 05:47 Beautiful. 05:48 Gorgeous. 05:49 Though I don't know how high those cliffs are, 05:51 but they sure look good. 05:52 You remember, well, you remember the day? 05:54 >>Zach: Yeah, it was high enough 05:55 I didn't really want to stand next to the edge. 05:57 >>John: I did stand next to the edge 05:58 and wondered if that was smart. 05:59 >>Matt: One thing you'll notice about that grass 06:01 in the last shot is that it was blowing around. 06:03 >>John: Yeah, watch this. 06:04 It gets blowier in just a moment. 06:06 It, we're filming by this, see, there you go. 06:09 Windy as anything. 06:10 It was kind of cold. 06:11 We were going to film with the drone, 06:13 and there's the drone going up. 06:14 And someone had the very good idea to fly out. 06:18 And how far out did we go? 06:19 Well, first let's look at this. 06:21 Here's some of the footage that we, 06:22 that we captured with the drone. 06:24 It looks gorgeous. 06:26 And that's somebody down there. 06:28 >>Matt: You can see me and Zach in that last shot. 06:30 >>John: Okay, there you were. 06:31 The drone is heading offshore now. 06:33 We're going to get some beautiful pictures 06:34 that'll be used in the “Celtic Connection” program. 06:38 And so we get out there, this is flying offshore, about a mile. 06:42 Almost a mile. 06:44 I think it's going to show us here in just a moment; 06:47 4,600 feet. 06:48 Can we call it a mile. 06:49 >>Zach: Yeah, let's call it a mile. 06:50 >>Matt: I think it's fair. 06:51 >>John: Okay, so tell me what happened. 06:54 >>Matt: Well, uh, we were out there, 06:56 and, as you can see right now, 06:58 the battery life was probably about halfway. 07:01 And before I knew it, it was just dropping, 07:06 like, it, it started dropping rapidly, 07:09 considerably faster than going out there. 07:11 Because when we were out there, wind helped take me out there. 07:16 But coming back we were fighting that 25 mile an hour wind. 07:20 >>John: And the challenge with drones is 07:21 if they run out of battery, they drop out of the sky. 07:24 And this one, if I'm not mistaken, 07:25 when it gets to 5 percent, what happens? 07:27 >>Matt: It should at that point just use the remaining battery 07:30 power to glide downward. 07:32 >>John: It lands at 5 percent. 07:35 >>Zach: So that it doesn't drop like a rock 07:36 on somebody's head and, and harm them. 07:38 >>John: But now we're down at 2 percent. 07:40 It should be landing. 07:41 It's not landing. 07:42 And we've got a lot of ground to cover. 07:43 As a matter of fact, we are now at... 07:45 >>Matt: I'd say we're probably half a mile away, still. 07:50 >>John: Zero percent. 07:52 >>Matt: It was somewhere, probably, 30, 40 seconds 07:55 before this point in time that I tapped Zach on the shoulder 07:58 and asked him to pray about it. 08:00 >>John: And so you prayed. 08:01 >>Zach: Yeah. 08:01 And, at the time, you know, 08:03 getting nearly blown off of a cliff and, 08:06 and kind of the stress of the moment, 08:07 didn't really have anything other to pray than, 08:09 “God, please help us get this drone back.” 08:11 >>John: You know, if we lost the drone, you can replace a drone, 08:14 but you can't replace a day's filming, 08:16 because that would have been on the bottom of the ocean, 08:17 on the memory card that's inside the drone. 08:21 So there's no power. 08:23 This is flying without fuel. 08:25 No power. 08:26 Even now it could just drop out of the sky at zero percent. 08:29 And you'd have a jigsaw puzzle. 08:30 >>Matt: I was actually waiting to see it fall like a brick, 08:34 and then listen for a little splash 08:35 over the side of the cliff. 08:37 But that didn't happen. 08:38 As you can see, 08:39 I remained in control the whole time. 08:42 It didn't try to land itself. 08:43 I was able to take it in above land, 08:45 against 26 mile an hour wind. 08:49 And put it down. 08:50 >>Zach: And, uh, and 26 mile an hour wind is pretty significant, 08:54 regardless of whether or not you have battery. 08:57 And then flying it against the wind, 08:59 with no battery, um, that's just nothing short of a miracle. 09:03 >>John: Yeah, we might have got lucky. 09:06 I don't think there was any luck involved. 09:08 >>Matt: I, definitely not. 09:09 Because we were flying with zero percent for, um, 09:12 approximately a minute. 09:13 And you just, I don't know, 09:15 you don't, you don't hear about that happening. 09:18 You don't see that happening. 09:19 >>John: Would you take the drone outside and try to fly it at, 09:21 at zero percent for a minute? 09:22 >>Matt: I would not. 09:23 >>Zach: I wouldn't. 09:25 >>Matt: Unless you, uh, are willing to offer me another one. 09:27 >>Zach: I wouldn't even try using my phone 09:29 at zero percent for a minute. 09:30 It just doesn't, zero percent is zero. 09:32 >>John: Doesn't work. 09:34 >>Matt: Sometimes the phone dies at, like, five percent. 09:36 >>John: Yeah? 09:37 Out of battery, but not out of power, 09:39 because God was with us. 09:40 Now, somebody's going to say, 09:41 if you're to travel to Northern Ireland, 09:43 to the sites we went to, we went to Downpatrick at the, 09:46 the Giants Causeway, 09:47 the Cliffs, well thats in the Republic, 09:49 Dublin and other places, 09:50 to be there for several days with no rain was a miracle. 09:54 So maybe this was another miracle. 09:56 But we were truly blessed. 09:57 ♪[Music]♪ 09:58 >>John: Ireland was for us a land of miracles. 10:01 We saw God do some phenomenal things. 10:04 And it's a phenomenal story. 10:05 Don't miss it. 10:06 “The Celtic Connection,” coming right up. 10:08 Thank, thanks, guys, appreciate that a lot. 10:10 ♪[Music]♪ 10:17 >>John: This is It Is Written. I'm John Bradshaw. 10:20 Thanks for joining me. 10:21 He's one of the least-known well-known people 10:24 in all of history. 10:26 On a certain date every year, 10:28 people all around the world celebrate him, 10:30 without knowing much of anything about him. 10:33 Here in Ireland, St. Patrick's Day is huge. 10:38 It's a national holiday in Ireland. 10:40 On St. Patrick's Day people wear green, 10:42 and there are often parades and other celebrations conducted. 10:46 It was in the 17th century that the Roman Catholic Church 10:49 set aside March 17 as a day of celebration and remembrance. 10:55 In recent decades, Ireland has been a land of religious 10:58 and political tension over the question 11:01 of who should control Northern Ireland: 11:04 the Irish or Great Britain. 11:07 The dispute goes back many hundreds of years. 11:10 ♪[Bagpipes]♪ 11:16 In the 1960s, the Troubles began in Northern Ireland. 11:21 It was a period marked by violent clashes between 11:24 unionists and republicans; 11:26 basically, between Protestants and Catholics. 11:33 More than 3,200 people died 11:36 during the 30 years of the Troubles. 11:38 There were thousands of bombings 11:40 and tens of thousands of shootings. 11:43 Men like Bobby Sands are still revered by many 11:46 here in Ireland. 11:48 Sands died in the notorious Maze Prison 11:50 just outside Belfast, 11:52 following a 66-day-long hunger strike in 1981. 11:57 In all, ten men died during that hunger strike, 12:01 men who were committed to the idea of a united Ireland 12:05 and wanted to see Northern Ireland 12:07 wrested out of the control of the British. 12:09 ♪[Music]♪ 12:15 The tension began to ease following an agreement 12:18 that was signed in Belfast on Good Friday of 1998. 12:23 But religious tension goes back much further in Ireland. 12:27 And the man responsible for radical religious change 12:30 among the Irish, 12:31 the man responsible for the Christian evangelization 12:34 of the British Isles, 12:35 is celebrated all around the world today. 12:38 ♪[Music]♪ 12:45 During his lifetime, Patrick was considered a troublemaker. 12:48 He was a disturber of the peace. 12:50 Today, you might call him a religious lightning rod. 12:54 And there's one thing Patrick wasn't. 12:56 He wasn't Irish. 12:59 He was born in the year 385 A.D. or thereabouts, 13:03 and he died around 461 A.D. 13:07 At that time, the British Isles were pagan. 13:10 They were dominated by the culture 13:12 and the religious practices of the Druids, 13:15 an elite class that had a direct line to the occult. 13:19 By the time Patrick came onto the scene, 13:21 druidism was at the height of its powers. 13:25 Druid literature speaks of the magical 13:29 and spiritual training of the Druid, 13:31 in which he is eaten by a goddess, enters into her belly, 13:35 and is reborn as the greatest poet in the land. 13:40 Mention of druidism evokes images of wizardry. 13:43 And the Druids in Patrick's day were into magic 13:46 and charms and healing powers. 13:48 They foretold the future. 13:50 And they worshipped the forces of nature. 13:52 They've been referred to as magico-religious specialists, 13:57 and it's said that they could call up a storm 14:00 to ward off invaders. 14:03 Now, while most modern scholars would not agree with this, 14:07 no less a person than Julius Caesar 14:09 made the claim that the Druids practiced human sacrifice, 14:13 burning their victims in a device known as a “wicker man.” 14:17 Caesar also said that they believed in reincarnation. 14:21 Modern scholars say that the Druids 14:23 were essentially shaman, spiritualists. 14:27 >>Dr. Trim: So the religious situation in Ireland 14:28 in the 5th century is that it is the last holdout of the Druids, 14:32 the Druids who had once been the predominant religious figures 14:36 right across the British Isles and, indeed, 14:38 the north part of what we now call France. 14:40 But they had been largely stamped out by the Romans, 14:43 who found their religious practices 14:44 such as human sacrifice objectionable. 14:47 Um, there's very little evidence of human sacrifice 14:50 being practiced by Patrick's day, 14:53 but the Druids are there. 14:54 This is a religion that is really focused on, 14:57 on nature and on spirits. 15:00 Uh, but it is a fairly sophisticated religion as well. 15:02 They had education; they were well-educated men 15:06 by the standards of the time. 15:08 And they had reasonably well worked out cosmology 15:11 and a pantheon of gods. 15:13 Um, but the Druid, druidic religion, as far as we can tell, 15:18 does seem to be in a little bit of decline by the 5th century. 15:20 It's past its heyday, and so, uh, 15:23 there is this emphasis on spirits. 15:26 Uh, and where therein might still be some human sacrifice 15:30 is that we know people are found in the bogs of Ireland, 15:33 in the peat. 15:34 Now, some of them clearly ended up there accidentally, 15:36 tripped and fell, oh, too bad. 15:38 But others we know, uh, are offered as sacrifices. 15:42 Because you're hoping that by doing that, 15:45 you can ensure you have good weather, 15:47 a good harvest, 15:49 because everything depends on the harvest, 15:50 and so you want to appease the natural deities. 15:55 >>John: It was this paganism that confronted St. Patrick 15:57 during his ministry to the Irish people. 16:00 Druid magicians hindered the work Patrick was trying to do. 16:04 The Druids resented Patrick, 16:06 knowing that his ministry was the beginning of the end 16:09 for druidism. 16:11 Patrick was born in Britain, 16:13 which at the time was controlled by the Roman Empire. 16:17 Exactly where he was born no one really knows, 16:20 although it seems likely that he was born on or near 16:23 England's west coast. 16:26 His family evidently was reasonably well off. 16:28 Both his father and his grandfather 16:30 worked in religious service. 16:32 But Patrick, as a young man, 16:34 didn't take matters of faith seriously. 16:37 When he was 16 years old, 16:39 he was captured by raiders sent or led by Ireland's King Niall. 16:44 He spent six years toiling as a shepherd, 16:47 and it was during this time that he found faith in God 16:52 for himself. 16:53 ♪[Music]♪ 16:55 God spoke to Patrick and told him to flee to the Irish coast, 16:59 where he'd find a ship waiting to take him home. 17:02 So he left his master, 17:04 traveled many miles to a port, and he found the promised ship. 17:08 He traveled back to England and made his way back to his family. 17:12 And it was there and then that he dedicated his life 17:16 to serving God. 17:18 So how did Patrick, the runaway slave, 17:22 become St. Patrick, known and loved all the world over? 17:27 And what does Patrick have to do with the Protestant Reformation? 17:31 I'll tell you more in just a moment. 17:33 ♪[Music]♪ 17:39 >>John: We look around the world and it appears this planet 17:42 is spinning out of control in many ways. 17:45 The world of today is a far cry from the world of yesterday. 17:48 Is there hope? 17:49 Yes, there is. 17:50 Our free offer today is "Hope for a Planet in Crisis." 17:54 Call us on (800) 253-3000, 17:57 or visit us online at www.itiswritten.com. 18:03 Or you can write to the address on your screen. 18:05 I'd like you to receive our free offer, 18:07 "Hope for a Planet in Crisis." 18:10 [Cricketts chirping] 18:14 ♪[Music]♪ 18:22 [Camera equipment rattling] 18:25 [Rustling in bushes] 18:27 [People talking] 18:30 [Wind blowing] 18:35 ♪[Music]♪ 18:45 ♪[Music]♪ 18:55 [Cheering] 19:04 ♪[Music]♪ 19:18 ♪[Irish music]♪ 19:24 >>John: Thanks for joining me today on It Is Written. 19:27 He's known all around the world, 19:29 and he's celebrated every March the 17th. 19:32 But who was St. Patrick, 19:34 and what did he do that made him a global icon? 19:37 Well, to begin with, he wasn't Irish; he was English. 19:42 And he wasn't a Roman Catholic. 19:44 The principles that he lived by and shared with others 19:46 made him a forerunner of the Protestant Reformation, 19:49 which would occur many years after he died. 19:52 He was taken from his home in England 19:54 by Irish raiders when he was a boy, 19:56 and he was forced into slavery in Ireland. 20:00 He eventually escaped, 20:01 and he wrote that after studying in France 20:03 and returning to his home in England, 20:06 he had a vision, 20:08 not unlike a vision Paul had in the book of Acts. 20:12 “I saw a man coming, as it were from Ireland. 20:15 His name was Victoricus, and he carried many letters, 20:20 and he gave me one of them. 20:22 I read the headling: ‘The Voice of the Irish.' 20:25 As I began the letter, 20:27 I imagined in that moment that I heard the voice 20:30 of those very people who were near the wood of Foclut, 20:34 which is beside the western sea, 20:36 and they cried out, as with one voice, 20:39 ‘We appeal to you, holy servant boy, 20:41 to come and walk among us.'” 20:45 Eventually, Patrick acted on the vision he received 20:48 and returned to Ireland to work as a missionary. 20:51 He landed at the same port from which he had escaped Ireland, 20:55 and began his ministry in Tara, just north of Dublin, 21:00 in what today is the Republic of Ireland. 21:02 And before long, the son of a powerful chieftain 21:05 in the north of Ireland was converted 21:07 and joined Patrick's missionary team. 21:10 Thousands were baptized, 21:11 among them many who were wealthy and influential. 21:15 Patrick ordained pastors throughout the island 21:17 to shepherd these new Christian communities. 21:20 Here's what he said about the new Irish believers: 21:24 “Never before did they know of God 21:26 except to serve idols and unclean things. 21:29 But now, they've become the people of the Lord, 21:32 and are called children of God. 21:36 The sons and daughters of the leaders of the Irish 21:39 are seen to be monks and virgins of Christ.” 21:43 There's plenty said about Patrick's life 21:45 that's nothing more than legend. 21:47 No, he didn't chase all the snakes out of Ireland. 21:51 There'd never been any snakes in Ireland in the first place. 21:55 They certainly didn't attack him 21:56 after he had fasted for 40 days. 21:59 His walking stick did not grow into a tree. 22:03 And he never used the shamrock to teach the Irish 22:06 about the trinity. 22:08 Patrick sailed from near Drogheda to just outside Belfast 22:12 where he began sharing the gospel with people 22:14 who for the most part had zero working knowledge 22:18 of the plan of salvation. 22:19 Now, Patrick wasn't the first missionary to Ireland, 22:22 but he was the first to gain any real traction and establish 22:26 an effective, far-reaching work. 22:29 So what was it that drove 22:31 this Bible-believing missionary forward? 22:34 As the church lost its focus on the Bible, 22:37 its increasing popularity within the Roman Empire 22:40 caused it to compromise its faith and witness. 22:44 However, there were many Christians who put up 22:47 strong resistance to this new alliance of church and state. 22:52 During these centuries, the Celtic Christians set a pattern 22:56 of independence from the church of Rome. 22:59 Like the reformers which would follow them later, 23:02 they held to the Bible as their exclusive 23:04 and supreme spiritual authority. 23:07 Historians had this to say about Patrick: 23:11 “He never mentions either Rome or the pope 23:13 or hints that he was in any way connected 23:15 with the ecclesiastical capital of Italy. 23:19 He recognizes no other authority but that of the Word of God. 23:24 If he were sent by Celestine to the native Christians 23:26 to be their primate or archbishop, 23:29 no wonder that stout-hearted Patrick refused to bow his neck 23:33 to any such yoke of bondage. 23:36 There is strong evidence that Patrick had no 23:38 Roman commission in Ireland, Patrick's churches in Ireland, 23:42 like their brethren in Britain, 23:44 repudiated the supremacy of the popes, 23:47 all knowledge of the conversion of Ireland through his ministry 23:50 must be suppressed. 23:52 There is not a written word from one of them 23:54 rejoicing over Patrick's additions to their church, 23:57 showing clearly that he was not a Roman missionary.” 24:01 >>Dr. Trim: In the 5th century there is only one church. 24:05 Uh, and there's still a connection between 24:07 Britain and Rome. 24:08 It's in the middle 5th century that that gets severed, 24:10 and the British Isles gets cut off from the Roman Empire. 24:14 Um, but at that point here is still one church, 24:16 and Patrick is a member of it, 24:17 from all the evidence we have, um, 24:20 and we know that that church actually sent, 24:23 sent Germanus to Britain in 429, and one of his colleagues, 24:27 Palladius, is believed to have gone to Ireland. 24:30 Um, but he seems to have minimal impact. 24:32 But that's the church that they're part of. 24:34 But it's really the inheritance of the primitive church 24:36 of Christ's day. 24:38 Um, if we say the Catholic Church, 24:41 then people think of St. Peter's, 24:43 and a whole series of things 24:45 which just don't exist in the 5th century. 24:49 So to, you know, the danger of saying that he's 24:52 a Roman Catholic missionary, it's true in one sense, 24:55 but it's not true in another, 24:57 because it's, it, there just isn't a church like, 25:02 called the Roman Catholic Church. 25:03 There is the one church, which is called Catholic 25:07 at the time to distinguish it from Arians, 25:09 uh, who don't believe in the full divinity of Christ. 25:12 That's what Catholic means in the 5th century; 25:15 it means somebody who is an orthodox Christian 25:18 on the Trinity. 25:19 And Patrick is definitely that. 25:22 So what we know about Patrick comes largely from his writings. 25:29 There are stories, 25:30 but most of them were written down in the 7th century. 25:32 So 200 years after he died. 25:34 So there's probably some grains of truth left in them, 25:39 but a lot of exaggeration. 25:41 To judge from his own writings, he's a relatively simple, 25:44 uh, Christian. 25:45 His theology is, is relatively simplistic. 25:49 And that's not a criticism; far from it. 25:52 Uh, he's definitely trinitarian; he believes very strongly, 25:56 uh, in God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit, 25:59 and he's very focused on Christ. 26:00 But he has a simple message, 26:01 and he has a burning passion for the people of Ireland, 26:05 who had enslaved him as a youth. 26:08 But even after he was free, he recognized, 26:10 these people are lost in superstition 26:13 and I have good news for them. 26:14 ♪[Music]♪ 26:15 A century after Patrick, 26:17 the Church of Rome launched an attack 26:19 on the Celtic communities of Western Europe, 26:22 because the Irish customs of the Celtic church were at odds 26:26 with the customs sanctioned by the Bishop of Rome, 26:28 who by now had become a very powerful figure. 26:31 But Patrick wasn't the only one 26:34 who was reaching the world with the gospel. 26:36 After Patrick, there was Aidan, 26:39 who as a missionary went to England 26:41 and reached not only the high nobility, 26:44 but also children and slaves. 26:45 And he traveled extensively. 26:48 Like Patrick, 26:49 he wasn't affiliated with the Roman church. 26:52 Aidan established a cathedral 26:54 off the northeastern coast of England 26:55 on the island of Lindisfarne, 26:57 and from there he was greatly influential in reaching 27:01 great numbers of people for Christ, 27:02 especially in the region of Northumbria. 27:06 And there was another who reached 27:09 not only the British Isles, 27:10 but who impacted the world with the message of the gospel. 27:15 He was from this island of Ireland, 27:17 and I'll tell you who he was in just a moment. 27:20 ♪[Music]♪ 27:28 >>Announcer: Planning for your financial future 27:30 is a vital aspect of Christian stewardship. 27:34 For this reason, It Is Written is pleased to offer 27:36 free planned giving and estate services. 27:39 For information on how we can help you, 27:41 please call 800-992-2219. 27:46 Call today, or visit our website, 27:48 HisLegacy.com. 27:51 Call 800-992-2219. 28:01 >>John: Today I'd like to ask you to help It Is Written 28:04 open the eyes of the blind. 28:06 India as more blind people than any country on earth. 28:09 But simple cataract surgery can make the difference 28:12 between seeing and not seeing for many people. 28:16 Eyes for India is a project that's providing 28:18 cataract surgery for people in desperate need 28:21 of the gift of sight. 28:22 Please help today. 28:24 Call 800-253-3000. 28:27 Eyes for India and It Is Written are doing the work of Jesus 28:31 in opening the eyes of the blind and opening hearts 28:35 to the love of God. 28:36 You can also donate online at ItIsWritten.com. 28:41 Please call 800-253-3000, 28:44 or write to P O Box 6, Chattanooga, Tennessee 37401. 28:50 Or visit ItIsWritten.com. 28:56 ♪[Irish music]♪ 29:05 >>John: Thanks for joining me on It Is Written. 29:08 Right here on this very spot in Belfast, Ireland, 29:11 there was a hive of activity a little over 100 years ago. 29:15 Right here is where the Titanic was built. 29:18 Not only the Titanic, but its sister ships, 29:20 the Olympic and the Britannic. 29:22 Thousands of workers labored on this very spot. 29:25 What happened here then dominated not only this city, 29:29 but went on to impact the world. 29:32 Somebody else labored here in Ireland 29:34 whose work impacted the world, 29:36 and that was Patrick. 29:38 Patrick was a dynamic Christian missionary, 29:41 and from Ireland his influence spread to impact Christians 29:45 and Christianity all around the world. 29:48 In the time of Patrick, the church was dominated 29:51 by the popes of Rome, 29:53 and they were not too keen with what Patrick was doing. 29:56 They saw it as a direct threat against their authority, 29:59 and they were committed to getting rid 30:00 of the distinctive Irish religious practices. 30:04 But it wasn't only Patrick that impacted the world 30:07 in those days. 30:08 Aidan was an Irish missionary who traveled to England 30:12 and won many there to faith in Christ. 30:16 He was sent from the remote Scottish island of Iona, 30:20 where a missionary training center 30:21 had been established by another Irish evangelist, 30:25 a man by the name of Columba. 30:28 Today, Columba is remembered 30:30 as one of the three chief saints of Ireland, 30:33 along with Patrick and Brigit of Kildare. 30:36 He was born in Donegal, in the northwest of Ireland, 30:40 in the year 521. 30:42 When he was about 40 years old 30:44 he set off with several others to evangelize the Picts. 30:48 He traveled 100 miles to Iona and built a monastery, 30:53 not as a retreat, but as a missionary training center. 30:57 The Venerable Bede, the influential writer and scholar, 31:00 said that Columba “converted the nation to the faith of Christ, 31:04 by preaching and example.” 31:07 As well as being an evangelist and a missionary, 31:09 there was something else that set Columba apart. 31:12 In contrast with the Church of Rome, 31:15 he observed the Sabbath on Saturday, 31:18 the seventh day of the week. 31:20 There's no evidence he ever kept Sunday as the Sabbath. 31:24 Dr. Leslie Hardinge examined every primary source connected 31:27 with the Celtic church, 31:29 and confirmed this Celtic-Sabbath connection. 31:33 Just before he died, Columba said, 31:35 “This day is called in the sacred books ‘Sabbath,' 31:40 which is interpreted ‘rest.' 31:41 And truly this day is for me a Sabbath, 31:46 because it is my last day of this present laborious life. 31:50 In it after my toilsome labors I keep Sabbath. 31:55 One historian wrote, 31:57 “We find traces in the early monastic churches of Ireland 32:00 that they held Saturday to be the Sabbath 32:03 on which they rested from all their labors.” 32:08 Later, in the 11th century, Queen Margaret of Scotland 32:11 said this about Scottish Christians. 32:13 She said, “They work on Sunday, 32:15 but they keep Saturday after a sabbatical manner.” 32:19 But Queen Margaret, 32:20 later Saint Margaret in the Catholic Church, 32:23 was committed to eradicated Sabbath worship 32:26 and replacing it instead with worship on Sunday. 32:30 The Roman Emperor Constantine, 32:32 who was a pagan sun worshipper 32:34 before his nominal conversion to Christianity, 32:38 was the first to degree Sunday worship, 32:41 and he did it before Patrick's time. 32:43 But the Irish Christians were not bound by Roman decrees. 32:49 One thousand years before the beginning 32:51 of the Protestant Reformation, Patrick was a nonconformist. 32:56 Before there was a reformation, 32:57 Patrick was a Protestant. 33:01 In this way, the Celtic church formed part of 33:04 what the Bible refers to as the “Church in the Wilderness” 33:08 during the Middle Ages. 33:09 John wrote about this time of exile for Christian believers. 33:12 He said in Revelation 12 and verse 6, 33:15 “And the woman,” that's the church, 33:17 “fled into the wilderness, 33:19 where she has a place prepared by God.” 33:22 The Albigenses of southern France, 33:24 the Waldenses of Italy and the Alps, 33:26 and others like them, 33:28 chose to base their faith on the Bible, 33:30 rather than lining up behind a church that was placing 33:32 such a strong emphasis on tradition. 33:35 They kept the torch of Christian faith shining brightly in an era 33:39 of what was some pretty considerable spiritual darkness. 33:42 ♪[Music]♪ 33:46 Unfortunately, the Christians of Ireland and Scotland 33:50 didn't maintain their religious freedom indefinitely. 33:54 In time, new rulers came to power in both countries 33:57 who submitted the practices of both church and state 34:00 to the rule of the Catholic Church. 34:03 But the legacy of the Celtic church, 34:05 and Patrick in particular, was destined to live on. 34:10 The spirit of independence from Rome 34:13 was nurtured by the original British church. 34:16 Submission to rules of any sort on the European continent, 34:19 ecclesiastical or political, 34:21 didn't come easy to the British or the Irish. 34:23 ♪[bagpipes]♪ 34:24 When King Henry the Eighth 34:26 declared England free from the Roman church 34:28 and established the Church of England, or the Anglican Church, 34:32 he was simply enshrining in law what in millions of English 34:36 minds had been true for centuries. 34:39 Speaking prophetically of this time, the prophet Daniel wrote 34:41 in Daniel 11:32 and 33, 34:44 “The people who know their God shall be strong 34:47 and carry out great exploits. 34:49 And those of the people that understand shall instruct many.” 34:53 This is the true legacy of Patrick, 34:55 and of the Celtic church, 34:57 and those heroes of faith who held the true gospel 35:02 in the centuries prior to the Reformation. 35:05 Without this gospel 35:06 seed having been sown and scattered by Patrick and others, 35:10 the Reformation might never have happened. 35:14 It's said that Patrick died on March the 17th 35:17 in the year 461 A.D., 35:19 and that he's buried right here outside Down Cathedral in 35:25 Downpatrick in northern Ireland, 35:28 alongside Brigid and Columba, 35:31 two other giants of Irish history. 35:34 The legend of Patrick lives on here. 35:37 The truth of his life is even more impressive than the legend. 35:41 ♪[Music]♪ 35:46 >>John: I'm John Bradshaw from It Is Written, 35:49 inviting you to join me for 500, 35:52 nine programs produced by It Is Written 35:55 taking you deep into the Reformation. 35:58 This is the 500th anniversary of the beginning 36:01 of the Reformation, 36:02 when Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the door 36:05 of the Castle church in Wittenburg, Germany. 36:08 We'll take you to Wittenburg, and to Belgium, 36:10 to England, 36:11 to Ireland, 36:12 to Rome, 36:13 to the Vatican City, 36:14 and introduce you to the people who created the Reformation, 36:17 who pushed the Reformation forward. 36:19 We'll take you to sites all throughout Europe 36:21 where the reformers lived and, in some cases, died. 36:24 We'll bring you back to the United States 36:26 and take you to a little farm in upstate New York, 36:29 and show you how God spread the Reformation here. 36:32 Don't miss 500. 36:34 You can own the 500 series on DVD. 36:37 Call us on 888-664-5573, 36:41 or visit us online at itiswritten.shop. 36:47 >>John: Thanks for joining me on It Is Written. 36:49 This is 500. I'm John Bradshaw. 36:51 My guest is Dr. David Trim, a Reformation historian. 36:55 Dr. Trim, how would you explain or describe 36:58 the religious situation in Ireland today? 37:01 >>Dr. Trim: That's an excellent question, John. 37:03 The situation today is in flux, 37:05 in a way that wasn't true in the past. 37:07 You can say, isn't it always in flux? 37:09 But there used to be great stability. 37:11 Ireland was Catholic except for the north, 37:14 which was zealously Protestant and essentially Presbyterian, 37:17 that type of Protestant. 37:19 But today things are changing. 37:21 The impact of secularization, 37:23 postmodernism that's affecting so much of Europe is, 37:27 is very much affecting Ireland. 37:29 It's still a much more religious part of the world than any other 37:32 part of the British Isles, 37:34 and certainly much more so than Scotland. 37:37 Um, but today the winds of change are there, 37:40 and the Catholic church no longer has a complete 37:43 social hegemony in Ireland, 37:45 which it did for almost the whole of the history 37:47 of independent Ireland since the early 1920s. 37:50 And even in the north, uh Protestantism 37:53 is beginning to lose its grip just a little bit. 37:56 >>John: Now, when you look at the Roman Catholic Church 37:58 in Ireland, it had been so strong, 38:00 and for so long, 38:02 and in recent years it's had its fair share of challenges. 38:06 >>Dr. Trim: It has, and it has faced unpleasant, for it, 38:09 controversies, um, about the recent past. 38:13 Uh, the scandal of priests abusing children, 38:17 for example, which has taken place everywhere. 38:19 That's, the effects of that have been felt in Ireland. 38:22 But also a scandal that has yet to come to light anywhere else 38:26 but has been hugely important in Ireland, 38:29 which is unmarried mothers, many of them young, 38:32 teenagers or in their early twenties, um, 38:34 sent to houses of correction because Ireland, 38:39 being a very Catholic society, 38:41 it wasn't against the laws, supposedly, 38:43 to have a child out of wedlock, 38:45 but society frowned on it heavily. 38:47 And many of those are badly treated, 38:49 and many of their children died. 38:50 And what's happening in Ireland now is that people are 38:52 excavating cemeteries and finding hundreds of bodies, 38:56 uh, of children who'd died of abuse, effectively. 39:00 So this has been a huge shock, 39:02 uh, in Ireland and has really undermined the authority 39:06 of the Catholic Church that once was unquestioned. 39:08 >>John: Take me back a few years to the time of the “Troubles.” 39:12 Now, I'm the right age; I grew up during the “Troubles,” 39:15 albeit on the other side of the world. 39:17 And names like Bobby Sands were on the news every night, 39:20 and the Maze prison might have been a prison in my own, 39:23 uh, province. 39:25 What was that like for Ireland to go through? 39:28 What was daily life like in that time? 39:32 >>Dr. Trim: It depends where you were, of course. 39:33 You talk to people who grew up there and say, well, 39:36 you know, most of the time you were unaware 39:39 that anything was happening. 39:40 But the truth is, there's that underpinning of violence 39:44 or the threat of violence. 39:45 And it dates back to the late 1960s. 39:48 Northern Ireland was a Protestant state. 39:50 Catholics did not have full civil rights. 39:53 And in the ‘60s, partly inspired by what was happening 39:56 in the United States with Martin Luther King, 39:58 um, Irish Catholics living in Ulster say, 40:02 “No, we should have full civil rights.” 40:04 Um, the Protestant government wasn't willing to concede those, 40:09 and so violence started. 40:11 >>John: It's stunning, isn't it, to think that in a, 40:13 in a western country, a civilized nation, 40:17 a generation ago, 40:18 there was an entire people group, and no matter what side 40:21 of the fence you're on, 40:22 this is still stunning there's an entire people group that was, 40:24 that was discriminated against on the basis of their religion. 40:27 >>Dr. Trim: Simply on the basis of their, their religion. 40:29 There is really no significant ethnic difference 40:32 between the two. 40:33 It was oppression based purely on religion, 40:37 and within the lifetime of many of your viewers 40:38 at the very heart of western civilization. 40:42 It is extraordinary. 40:43 >>John: Doesn't this speak a little bit about what the human 40:44 heart is actually capable of? 40:46 We'd say, how can that be? 40:47 We're, we're barely removed from that. 40:50 >>Dr. Trim: That's correct. 40:51 And today with even Ireland becoming increasingly secular, 40:56 it might seem that it could never happen. 40:58 But the truth is, people feel passionate about religion. 41:01 It moves something deep in our souls. 41:03 And if you believe that somebody else 41:07 is somehow actually in league with the devil 41:10 or is trying to undermine the cause of Christ, 41:14 normal rules get suspended when religion turns to conflict. 41:21 >>John: Let's turn back the clock a little bit here. 41:22 We'll go back to Patrick's day, 5th century. 41:24 What was, what was life like in 5th century Ireland 41:28 and England, for that matter, for young Patrick? 41:31 >>Dr. Trim: Life in the 5th century could be summarized 41:34 in the words of the political philosopher Thomas Hobbs, 41:36 “nasty, brutish and short.” 41:38 Uh, because this is the era of the collapse 41:40 of the Roman Empire. 41:41 The British Isles, not Ireland, but England, 41:45 um, and southern Scotland and most of Wales, 41:48 were part of the Roman Empire, the acme of civilization, 41:53 a degree of civilization 41:54 not matched for probably 1,600 years. 41:57 Uh, hot and cold running water in towns and in the villas 42:02 that the aristocracy lived in. 42:04 Something that wouldn't be matched until the 19th century. 42:08 And then it all collapses under the endless pressure 42:11 of invasions by barbarian tribes. 42:14 So people living at the time, uh, 42:17 Christians certainly thought they must be living at the end 42:21 of the world, 42:22 because they looked around them and everywhere they saw violence 42:25 and collapse and social disaster. 42:28 So that's the kind of, uh, 42:30 situation that exists in the 5th century. 42:33 People, uh, feel that their world is falling apart. 42:37 And you know what? It actually was. 42:38 >>John: Dr. Trim, what can you tell me about 42:40 Patrick's own faith in God? 42:42 >>Dr. Trim: John, I just want to be a little cautious first. 42:46 Uh, it's, sometimes some very big claims 42:48 are made about Patrick. 42:49 But the truth is, we don't have a lot of evidence. 42:51 So this, I'm an historian, and so I'm, 42:53 I'm bound to say this. 42:55 But the truth is, 42:56 we don't have a lot of direct evidence about Patrick. 43:00 Okay, all that said, 43:02 there are some things that we can say, 43:03 because we have Patrick's own writings. 43:07 Very unusual for the 5th century, 43:08 but we have Patrick's own writings. 43:10 And Patrick clearly has a burning Christian faith. 43:15 A simple faith. 43:16 There's no sign of great theological 43:18 complexity in his thought. 43:20 Um, but that's not a criticism [chuckles]. 43:23 Sometimes great theological complexity 43:24 can actually be a negative. 43:26 But, so he has a relatively straightforward 43:29 and simple Christian faith. 43:31 Uh, it's very much a trinitarian faith, 43:34 which is important to note because in the 5th century, 43:37 this is a century of conflict between 43:39 orthodox Catholic Christians, 43:41 as they call themselves, 43:43 which is in opposition to Arian Christians, 43:45 people who deny the full divinity of Christ. 43:48 Patrick is clearly trinitarian from his writings, 43:51 believes in the triune God, 43:53 but he's also has a very strong Christology. 43:56 Christ is important to him. 43:58 But what he also has is a desire to share Jesus Christ. 44:03 And not everybody had that in the 5th century either. 44:07 There were those who said the barbarians, 44:09 they are a scourge sent from God; they are our enemy. 44:13 Why would we try to convert them? 44:16 But not Patrick. 44:17 Patrick was enslaved as a boy. 44:20 He was seized by Irish raiders who'd come across the Irish sea. 44:24 He was taken to a strange land, 44:26 an uncivilized land without the comforts that existed in Britain 44:31 because it was part of the Roman Empire. 44:32 He's enslaved there. 44:34 Eventually he gets free and goes home. 44:37 He says, here are people who need to hear about Jesus. 44:43 And he has a dream; it's reminiscent of Paul's vision 44:47 of the Macedonian man saying, “Come over and help us.” 44:49 Patrick sees in a dream an Irish man basically saying, 44:53 “Come over and help us.” And he's convicted. 44:58 And he does it. 45:00 >>John: Now, Patrick's not the only great religious figure 45:03 to come out of that part of the world with a, 45:04 with a similar bent. 45:06 What do we know about Columba and Aiden? 45:09 They were also very significant missionaries. 45:12 >>Dr. Trim: So the interesting thing is that Ireland, 45:14 having been this utterly pagan country, 45:16 becomes a stronghold of Christianity. 45:18 And, in fact, the Anglos and Saxons conquer Britain 45:24 and drive all the Roman inhabitants into the 45:27 mountains of what today is Wales and parts of Scotland. 45:31 And so Britain, which had been the Christian country from which 45:34 Patrick went as a missionary, 45:35 is now a completely unchristian country, 45:38 people who believe in the, basically the Norse gods, 45:42 uh, pagan deities. 45:44 So Christianity is basically extinguished in Britain. 45:48 So how is it going to come back? 45:49 Well, eventually missionaries come from 45:51 the continent of Europe, 45:52 sent by what is then emerging as the Roman Catholic Church. 45:55 But before that, missionaries came from Ireland. 45:59 Who takes it back? 46:00 It's the Irish. 46:01 And the Irish, uh, have this extraordinary 46:04 passion for Christianity, which they still do. 46:07 Um, and so Ireland has, becomes this stronghold. 46:10 Abbeys, monastic communities for men and women, 46:13 where they take vows, uh, to devote themselves to God, 46:17 become extremely important in Ireland, 46:18 and they, they copy the gospel. 46:21 They copy the Bible into the vernacular languages 46:24 as well as into Latin. 46:26 Uh, and so the way the Bible survives in the British Isles 46:29 is because of these monasteries, uh, in Ireland. 46:33 But then they also send the missionaries back. 46:37 And two of the most important are Columba and Aidan. 46:40 >>John: Dr. Trim, fantastic stuff. 46:42 We'll be back with more in just a moment. 46:43 Don't go away. 46:44 ♪[Music]♪ 46:50 >>John: We look around the world and it appears this planet 46:52 is spinning out of control in many ways. 46:55 The world of today is a far cry from the world of yesterday. 46:59 Is there hope? 47:00 Yes, there is. 47:01 Our free offer today is "Hope for a Planet in Crisis." 47:05 Call us on (800) 253-3000, 47:08 or visit us online at www.itiswritten.com. 47:13 Or you can write to the address on your screen. 47:16 I'd like you to receive our free offer, 47:18 "Hope for a Planet in Crisis." 47:20 >>John: Welcome back to 500, brought to you by It Is Written. 47:23 My guest is Dr. David Trim, 47:25 an archivist and a Reformation historian. 47:28 Dr. Trim, a moment ago we were speaking about Columba 47:31 and Aidan, two people you don't really hear 47:33 much about today in, in general circumstances. 47:36 But they had a major impact 47:38 on what today we call Great Britain. 47:40 >>Dr. Trim: Absolutely. Uh, initially, 47:42 traveling from northern Ireland across the, 47:45 the narrow but very dangerous straits between 47:47 Ireland and Scotland, 47:48 uh, they set up a monastery on the Island of Iona. 47:52 Difficult, remote, uh, a good place for a monastery, actually, 47:55 because monks want to, uh, 47:56 shut themselves away from the world 47:58 so they can concentrate on God. 48:01 But not a good place for missionaries. 48:02 But it, it becomes a springboard for missionaries. 48:06 Uh, and so Aidan becomes the first, 48:08 travels down into what is now called Northumberland; 48:12 it's part of England but then was an independent kingdom. 48:14 Uh, its king had just been killed in battle with the Welsh. 48:19 Now, that's interesting, because the Welsh themselves 48:21 were supposed to be Christians. 48:22 Uh, but so, a kingdom that's in crisis. 48:25 Political crisis often becomes an opportunity for the gospel. 48:29 And so Aidan converts a man called Oswald, 48:33 who becomes king of Northumberland, 48:35 and he defeats the Welsh, 48:37 um, at a place, we don't know where it is, 48:40 the modern location isn't known, but he called it Heavensfield, 48:44 because he prayed. 48:45 And he believed that God had given him the victory. 48:48 And so he establishes Christianity 48:51 there in Northumberland. 48:53 Now, Columba follows. 48:54 Uh, Columba has a, a much greater influence, actually. 48:58 But Aidan is the first and needs to be remembered for that. 49:00 Also also, Aidan, from all we can tell, 49:03 was an extremely humble, godly man. 49:06 So Aidan had a huge impact because of his, 49:09 his saintliness. 49:10 Not saint in maybe the classic sense of a, an Augustine, 49:14 somebody who's a theologian, uh, and a major church figure. 49:17 But a, somebody who embodies Christ to those around him. 49:21 And Aiden did that. 49:23 Columba comes later, and there are other missionaries as well. 49:25 Ireland be, starts to send missionaries, 49:28 because the, the Saxon kings of Northumberland, 49:30 everyone to the south of them, is pagan. 49:33 So where can I get other missionaries? 49:35 Where can I get people to teach my people about Christ? 49:39 You have to get them from Ireland. 49:41 And so a wave of Irish missionaries come back 49:45 to northern England, 49:47 which is where Patrick had gone from centuries before, 49:50 and reconvert the inhabitants. 49:52 Uh, and because they're brought in by the kings, 49:55 that's important, 49:56 because they have a huge impact on the culture. 50:00 Uh, they teach the elite; 50:01 they teach them to read, they teach them to write. 50:04 Which means they can read the Bible. 50:06 And that's what the Irish missionaries teach them to do. 50:09 >>John: Meaning that Patrick has an enormous influence on, 50:12 on that entire region. 50:14 >>Dr. Trim: Indeed. 50:15 And though Patrick today is the patron saint of Ireland, 50:17 really Patrick's influence is still felt back in England, 50:21 though it's sort of secondhand because of the, 50:24 the missionaries who he inspired some hundred years later. 50:28 But they go back and reconvert. 50:30 And so the north of England is actually massively influenced 50:33 by Irish Christianity and Irish culture. 50:36 And today you can still go and visit churches that have, uh, 50:42 the relics of St. Columba and St. Columbanus 50:45 and other, uh, significant Celtic missionaries. 50:48 They are still remembered; they are still honored in churches, 50:52 including Dorham Cathedral, for example. 50:54 Uh, so their impact, it, it still lives on even today, 50:58 though in a more limited way. 50:59 >>John: Even though we're talking about the Reformation, 51:01 Patrick was around a lot time before the Reformation, 51:04 but his impact filtered its way down, 51:08 uh, through culture and religion. 51:09 Now, bring me down to the time of the Reformation, 51:13 closer to the 16th century. 51:15 What were some of the forces in play that made 51:16 the Reformation inevitable? 51:19 >>Dr. Trim: The church had become corrupt. 51:21 We often thing it say, you know, 51:23 people will sometimes say the Roman Catholic Church 51:25 was always of a certain stamp. 51:26 And it wasn't. 51:28 It evolved and developed. 51:31 Uh, by the late 15th century, 51:33 there is no question that the church 51:35 become corrupt and full of abuses. 51:38 If you, uh, are an Italian nobleman, 51:41 you have a good chance of becoming a cardinal 51:43 and being elected pope. 51:44 Uh, the election of the pope is not so much, 51:48 uh, to do with finding the most spiritual or even 51:50 theologically insightful person; 51:53 it's caught up in Italian politics. 51:55 Uh, the popes themselves go to war. 51:58 And, in fact, the papacy, 51:59 because it has a secular territory 52:02 that rules in the middle of what today is Italy, 52:04 the papacy is one of the important secular states. 52:07 Uh, but that means that the pope's own energies 52:10 are drawn not toward the church but towards geopolitics. 52:13 It's a sad state of affairs. 52:15 And finally, even the priests, 52:16 you know, part of the reason for saying that 52:18 only the priests can celebrate the Eucharist, 52:20 only the priests can read the scripture, 52:22 and only the priest can shape his 52:24 parishioners spiritual lives, 52:26 is that the priest is supposed to be educated. 52:29 But we know from many sources that by the late 15th century, 52:32 uh, the great majority of priests, 52:36 uh, are not at all well educated. 52:37 Some of them can't read the Bible, 52:38 and some of them can't read even to learn the catechism 52:41 that they're supposed to be teaching ordinary people. 52:44 >>John: And people saw wat was going on? 52:45 >>Dr. Trim: Absolutely, John. 52:47 Uh, it's not only Luther, and indeed, 52:49 Luther's not the first. 52:50 People identify this. 52:52 Uh, especially, uh, 52:54 people who are scholars, uh, academics, 52:57 literary people, they're writing satires about the immoral lives 53:02 of the popes and cardinals. 53:03 Uh, one of the most famous is Erasmus of Rotterdam, 53:07 a Dutch humanist who's extremely important for the Reformation 53:10 because he produces an authoritative 53:13 Greek New Testament. 53:15 Um, and Erasmus also writes movingly that he, 53:18 you know, he would wish that every plowboy 53:21 could be holding a copy of the scripture in his hand, 53:24 in his own language, and be reading the Bible 53:26 as he drives the ox that plows the furrow to plant his crops. 53:33 Um, and that sounds very Protestant. 53:34 But actually, Erasmus never becomes a Protestant. 53:38 He remains in the Roman Catholic Church. 53:41 So, which highlights the fact that, yes, people see abuses. 53:44 But not everybody is willing 53:48 to bring on the sort of confrontation 53:49 that Luther brings on, because it's very dangerous. 53:52 But also not everyone is willing to break the church. 53:56 There are others who feel, no matter what the abuses, 53:59 we have to stay with the church 54:00 and work to reform it from inside. 54:03 Whereas Luther, uh, is willing to say truth is truth, 54:09 and my conscience will take me where it must. 54:13 Famously, of course, 54:14 he says to the Diet of Worms in 1521, 54:16 “My conscience is captive to the Word of God.” 54:20 But people are doing this because they can see, 54:22 they can see the corruption. 54:24 Now, eventually, within 50 years, 54:26 the Catholic church does initiate its own reform, 54:29 what's often called the Counter-Reformation. 54:30 And they eliminate a number of these abuses 54:33 that are organizational. 54:35 But they don't address the theological issues 54:37 that Luther had addressed. 54:39 And we do have to separate those, I think, John. 54:41 The social and organizational corruption is why leaders, 54:47 princes, city councils were willing to support reformers, 54:51 but the theological points are also profound, 54:56 and if it had just been a social message, 54:59 Protestantism would never have caught on like wildfire 55:02 as it did. 55:03 It caught on like wildfire because it addressed 55:05 a deeply felt spiritual need. 55:08 >>John: One last question. 55:11 The current pope, Pope Francis, much loved, well liked. 55:14 I read where, where one person said even atheists 55:19 should pray for this pope, and so forth. 55:22 In the book he wrote called “The History of the Jesuits,” 55:24 he said that Protestantism is the root 55:27 of all of the evils in the western world. 55:32 Should we be concerned about that? 55:37 >>Dr. Trim: [sighs] There's no question that the post, 55:38 but that Pope Francis, uh, probably seems the most, 55:41 uh, attractive and, indeed, 55:43 the cuddliest figure in world Christianity. 55:45 >>John: Sure. 55:46 >>Dr. Trim: Uh, and [sighs] I would hope, 55:50 actually, that we would all pray for him, 55:51 as indeed for all members of other churches. 55:55 Uh, but we do need to be clear. 55:58 There was a reason why Protestants separated from 56:01 Catholics in the first place. 56:02 Some of it was down to misunderstanding 56:04 and mutual recriminations that set in 56:06 when one side gets against the other. 56:07 But there were also genuine significant differences. 56:12 And what modern Lutherans and Catholics have done, 56:19 in the laudable desire of reuniting Christianity, 56:22 which I'm sure is what God would desire in an ideal world, 56:27 what they have done is to very carefully parse terms, 56:31 um, very careful language. 56:34 But at times it probably is a matter of semantics. 56:37 And if you still look at what the Roman Catholic 56:42 Church teaches, the canons of the Council of Trent 56:46 have never been revoked. 56:49 The truth is, Protestantism still teaches that salvation 56:53 comes only from Christ, and the Catholic church 56:58 still teaches that we are supposed to make some 57:01 contribution to that. 57:03 And Protestants also still teach the supremacy of the Bible, 57:11 from which many other things derive and flow. 57:13 >>John: Sure. 57:14 >>Dr. Trim: And the Catholic church still states, 57:16 no, there is authoritative tradition. 57:19 It doesn't place it necessarily above the Bible in theory, 57:22 but it says you have to interpret the Bible 57:24 through the lens of authoritative tradition. 57:27 Which means the Bible isn't supreme. 57:30 It doesn't believe in sola scriptura. 57:33 It believes in the Bible, 57:34 and there are many fine Catholic biblical scholars. 57:36 But it doesn't teach sola scriptura. 57:39 And finally, the Catholic church above all else insists 57:43 that all Christians must acknowledge the authority 57:46 of the Bishop of Rome. 57:47 Well, you know, I grew up, 57:50 uh, in a family with some Anglican connections, 57:54 and I think, from my own historical research to the 1530s 57:59 when England started to, uh, 58:02 go its own path in terms of religion, 58:03 and a number of English writers said 58:06 “Why should the Bishop of Rome have authority over every other 58:10 bishop in every other church in Christendom?” 58:12 And the question still stands, John. 58:15 The question still stands, and there is no good answer. 58:17 So there are major differences, 58:20 and they can't be glossed over simply because one pope, 58:23 right now, is a very attractive person. 58:26 >>John: Well said, Dr. David Trim. 58:28 Thanks so much. 58:29 I appreciate you joining me. 58:30 >>Dr. Trim: Thanks for having me. 58:31 >>John: And we're glad that you've joined us as well. 58:34 There's more to come on 500. 58:35 This was program 2. 58:37 Uh, join me next time for “A Lamp unto My Feet.” 58:40 We'll look at William Tindale, 58:41 the great English reformer, 58:43 and the contribution the Bible made to the Reformation. 58:45 Before we're done, let's pray together. 58:47 Let's pray now. 58:48 ♪[Music]♪ 58:48 Our Father in Heaven, 58:50 we're grateful for Jesus Christ, 58:52 the word made flesh. 58:54 We're so thankful you've given us your word 58:56 as a lamp to our feet and a light to our path. 58:59 We're grateful for those who've gone before us 59:01 and have pointed us in your direction. 59:04 Bless us now, that Jesus would be all, 59:06 that we would by your grace stand on your word, 59:09 and that the Reformation that you began long ago 59:11 would be completed in our hearts as we become truly yours. 59:15 We thank you, 59:16 and we pray in Jesus' name, 59:18 Amen. 59:19 ♪[Music]♪ 59:19 Thanks so much for joining me. 59:20 I look forward to seeing you again next time. 59:23 Until then, remember: 59:24 It Is Written. 59:25 Man shall not live by bread alone, 59:27 but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. 59:30 ♪[Theme music]♪ |
Revised 2017-10-18