¤[Theme music]¤
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>>John: This is It Is
Written. I'm John Bradshaw.
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Thanks for joining me for 500,
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our series of programs
looking at the Reformation:
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what it was, and
what it means to us today.
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And my guest in this program,
“The Celtic Connection,”
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is Dr. David Trim.
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He's the head of
archives for the world church,
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the Seventh-day
Adventist church,
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and a Reformation historian.
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Dr. Trim, thanks for joining me.
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>>Dr. David Trim: Thanks, John,
it's a pleasure to be with you.
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>>John: We'll be looking
at the times and the ministry
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of the man known as St. Patrick.
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Interesting times
those, weren't they?
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>>Dr. Trim: Times of catastrophe
and extraordinary violence,
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uh, times we hope never recur.
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But, uh, there are undoubtedly
lessons from them for today.
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>>John: Now, before our program,
“The Celtic Connection,”
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and before I speak
more with Dr. David Trim,
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I'd like you to
come with me to Ireland.
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Ireland we found to
be a beautiful place.
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It's endlessly historic.
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It's fascinating.
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The people are wonderful.
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And we discovered
it's a land of miracles.
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While our It Is Written team
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was filming on the
west coast of Ireland,
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at the Cliffs of Moher,
indescribably beautiful,
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we saw God do something amazing.
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We know that nothing
is impossible with God,
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so we shouldn't be surprised.
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But this was pretty impressive,
and it saved our day's filming.
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Okay, let's go.
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A couple of friends
I'd like you to meet,
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and we've got a
story to tell you.
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I had the good
fortune of being in Ireland,
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in fact, across Europe,
with Zach Kast and Matt Disbro.
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Now, guys, before we talk
about the miracle in Ireland,
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tell me what struck
you about the reformation
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as we looked at it.
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>>Zach: Uh, I think
one of the things that,
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that struck me was that it's,
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uh, treated very
blithely right now.
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Um, not really anyone cares.
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No one really cares.
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>>John: We saw a lot of
monuments, a lot of places,
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a lot of historic sites, and
a lot of people just walking by.
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>>Zach: Yeah.
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>>John: Without even
knowing what they're looking at.
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Matt, what about you?
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>>Matt: Uh, it's
actually a really similar thing
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that struck me too, just,
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whenever we went somewhere and
it was a very significant place
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in relation to the Reformation,
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um, people just didn't
seem to know what it was.
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>>John: You remember the ladies
who were walking past, uh,
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the William Tyndale
church, didn't have a clue.
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Even the man who
lives across the street.
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You remember the guy who
came out when the drone was out.
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He wanted to know
what was going on.
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Was shocked to
discover that William Tyndale
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had something to
do with his village.
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And he lived
virtually across the street
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from the Tyndale church.
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>>Matt: And an
interesting note, too:
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he was very interested in it.
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It's just, he didn't know.
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And that was, the people
of the church too, right?
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>>John: Yeah,
didn't have a clue.
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>>Zach & Matt: Yeah.
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>>John: Fascinating.
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Now, Ireland.
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We'll get to the
miracle story in just a moment.
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What struck you
about Ireland? Zach?
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>>Zach: Ireland is
extremely beautiful.
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Um, I kind of
went into it thinking,
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oh yeah, I'm
going to like Ireland.
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And when I left, I
realized I loved it.
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>>John: A beautiful place.
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Great people.
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What about you, Matt?
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>>Matt: Well, before
I had not been there,
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and I was told it was supposed
to be extremely wet and rainy.
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And when we were there,
it was an extremely sunny,
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like beautiful week.
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>>John: You know,
we were fortunate.
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We were there for several days.
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And it rains in Ireland.
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It could have rained every day.
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I don't know what we'd have
done if it'd rained every day.
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But we got to a
few places in Ireland.
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We started off in Dublin.
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We arrived in Dublin.
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Made our way to Belfast.
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I'll tell you what,
I'll tell you what struck me.
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You know, I grew up
during the “Troubles.”
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And, uh, to go to Belfast
and walk along the Falls Road
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and see the mural of
Bobby Sands, the hunger striker,
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and go to the cemetery where
Sands and others are buried,
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that was interesting.
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You'll remember while
we were at the Bobby Sands,
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uh, mural, three families
in about 10 or 15 minutes came
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by and had photographs taken
with Sands in the background,
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the image of Sands.
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So people haven't forgotten.
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I'm not
suggesting that they should.
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But those "Troubles"
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are still fresh in the
minds of a lot of people.
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Fascinating.
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Okay, the miracle story.
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We've got a video to show.
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Why don't we
take a look at that,
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and then we'll walk
through what took place
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on the west coast of
Ireland at the Cliffs of Moher.
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Ok, have a look at this
and we'll walk you through it.
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All right, the Cliffs of Moher.
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Beautiful.
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Gorgeous.
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Though I don't know
how high those cliffs are,
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but they sure look good.
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You remember, well,
you remember the day?
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>>Zach: Yeah, it was high enough
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I didn't really want
to stand next to the edge.
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>>John: I did
stand next to the edge
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and wondered if that was smart.
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>>Matt: One thing
you'll notice about that grass
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in the last shot is
that it was blowing around.
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>>John: Yeah, watch this.
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It gets blowier
in just a moment.
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It, we're filming by
this, see, there you go.
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Windy as anything.
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It was kind of cold.
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We were going to
film with the drone,
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and there's the drone going up.
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And someone had the
very good idea to fly out.
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And how far out did we go?
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Well, first let's look at this.
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Here's some of
the footage that we,
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that we captured with the drone.
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It looks gorgeous.
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And that's somebody down there.
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>>Matt: You can see me
and Zach in that last shot.
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>>John: Okay, there you were.
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The drone is
heading offshore now.
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We're going to get
some beautiful pictures
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that'll be used in the
“Celtic Connection” program.
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And so we get out there, this is
flying offshore, about a mile.
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Almost a mile.
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I think it's going to
show us here in just a moment;
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4,600 feet.
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Can we call it a mile.
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>>Zach: Yeah,
let's call it a mile.
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>>Matt: I think it's fair.
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>>John: Okay, so
tell me what happened.
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>>Matt: Well, uh,
we were out there,
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and, as you can see right now,
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the battery life was
probably about halfway.
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And before I knew
it, it was just dropping,
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like, it, it
started dropping rapidly,
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considerably faster
than going out there.
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Because when we were out there,
wind helped take me out there.
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But coming back we were fighting
that 25 mile an hour wind.
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>>John: And the
challenge with drones is
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if they run out of battery,
they drop out of the sky.
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And this one, if
I'm not mistaken,
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when it gets to 5
percent, what happens?
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>>Matt: It should at that point
just use the remaining battery
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power to glide downward.
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>>John: It lands at 5 percent.
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>>Zach: So that it
doesn't drop like a rock
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on somebody's head
and, and harm them.
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>>John: But now
we're down at 2 percent.
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It should be landing.
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It's not landing.
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And we've got a
lot of ground to cover.
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As a matter of
fact, we are now at...
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>>Matt: I'd say we're probably
half a mile away, still.
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>>John: Zero percent.
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>>Matt: It was somewhere,
probably, 30, 40 seconds
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before this point in time that
I tapped Zach on the shoulder
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and asked him to pray about it.
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>>John: And so you prayed.
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>>Zach: Yeah.
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And, at the time, you know,
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getting nearly
blown off of a cliff and,
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and kind of the
stress of the moment,
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didn't really have
anything other to pray than,
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“God, please help us
get this drone back.”
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>>John: You know, if we lost the
drone, you can replace a drone,
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but you can't
replace a day's filming,
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because that would have
been on the bottom of the ocean,
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on the memory card
that's inside the drone.
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So there's no power.
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This is flying without fuel.
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No power.
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Even now it could just drop
out of the sky at zero percent.
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And you'd have a jigsaw puzzle.
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>>Matt: I was actually waiting
to see it fall like a brick,
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and then listen
for a little splash
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over the side of the cliff.
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But that didn't happen.
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As you can see,
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I remained in
control the whole time.
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It didn't try to land itself.
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I was able to
take it in above land,
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against 26 mile an hour wind.
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And put it down.
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>>Zach: And, uh, and 26 mile an
hour wind is pretty significant,
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regardless of whether
or not you have battery.
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And then flying
it against the wind,
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with no battery, um, that's
just nothing short of a miracle.
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>>John: Yeah, we
might have got lucky.
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I don't think there
was any luck involved.
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>>Matt: I, definitely not.
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Because we were flying
with zero percent for, um,
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approximately a minute.
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And you just, I don't know,
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you don't, you don't
hear about that happening.
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You don't see that happening.
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>>John: Would you take the drone
outside and try to fly it at,
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at zero percent for a minute?
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>>Matt: I would not.
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>>Zach: I wouldn't.
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>>Matt: Unless you, uh, are
willing to offer me another one.
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>>Zach: I wouldn't
even try using my phone
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at zero percent for a minute.
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It just doesn't,
zero percent is zero.
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>>John: Doesn't work.
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>>Matt: Sometimes the phone
dies at, like, five percent.
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>>John: Yeah?
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Out of battery,
but not out of power,
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because God was with us.
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Now, somebody's going to say,
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if you're to travel
to Northern Ireland,
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to the sites we went to,
we went to Downpatrick at the,
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the Giants Causeway,
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the Cliffs, well
thats in the Republic,
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Dublin and other places,
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to be there for several
days with no rain was a miracle.
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So maybe this
was another miracle.
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But we were truly blessed.
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¤[Music]¤
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>>John: Ireland was
for us a land of miracles.
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We saw God do
some phenomenal things.
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And it's a phenomenal story.
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Don't miss it.
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“The Celtic
Connection,” coming right up.
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Thank, thanks, guys,
appreciate that a lot.
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¤[Music]¤
00:10:10.94\00:10:15.74
>>John: This is It Is
Written. I'm John Bradshaw.
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Thanks for joining me.
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He's one of the
least-known well-known people
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in all of history.
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On a certain date every year,
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people all around
the world celebrate him,
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without knowing much
of anything about him.
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Here in Ireland, St.
Patrick's Day is huge.
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It's a national
holiday in Ireland.
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On St. Patrick's
Day people wear green,
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and there are often parades and
other celebrations conducted.
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It was in the 17th century
that the Roman Catholic Church
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set aside March 17 as a day
of celebration and remembrance.
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In recent decades, Ireland
has been a land of religious
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and political
tension over the question
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of who should
control Northern Ireland:
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the Irish or Great Britain.
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The dispute goes back
many hundreds of years.
00:11:07.56\00:11:10.30
¤[Bagpipes]¤
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In the 1960s, the Troubles
began in Northern Ireland.
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It was a period marked
by violent clashes between
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unionists and republicans;
00:11:24.35\00:11:26.95
basically, between
Protestants and Catholics.
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More than 3,200 people died
00:11:33.56\00:11:36.26
during the 30
years of the Troubles.
00:11:36.29\00:11:38.73
There were thousands of bombings
00:11:38.76\00:11:40.83
and tens of
thousands of shootings.
00:11:40.86\00:11:43.26
Men like Bobby Sands
are still revered by many
00:11:43.30\00:11:46.47
here in Ireland.
00:11:46.50\00:11:48.04
Sands died in the
notorious Maze Prison
00:11:48.07\00:11:50.84
just outside Belfast,
00:11:50.87\00:11:52.74
following a 66-day-long
hunger strike in 1981.
00:11:52.77\00:11:57.35
In all, ten men died
during that hunger strike,
00:11:57.38\00:12:01.32
men who were committed to
the idea of a united Ireland
00:12:01.35\00:12:05.15
and wanted to
see Northern Ireland
00:12:05.19\00:12:07.19
wrested out of the
control of the British.
00:12:07.22\00:12:09.29
¤[Music]¤
00:12:09.32\00:12:15.73
The tension began to
ease following an agreement
00:12:15.76\00:12:18.40
that was signed in
Belfast on Good Friday of 1998.
00:12:18.43\00:12:23.57
But religious tension goes
back much further in Ireland.
00:12:23.61\00:12:27.68
And the man responsible
for radical religious change
00:12:27.71\00:12:30.68
among the Irish,
00:12:30.71\00:12:31.88
the man responsible for
the Christian evangelization
00:12:31.91\00:12:34.35
of the British Isles,
00:12:34.38\00:12:35.88
is celebrated all
around the world today.
00:12:35.92\00:12:38.49
¤[Music]¤
00:12:38.52\00:12:45.03
During his lifetime, Patrick
was considered a troublemaker.
00:12:45.06\00:12:48.20
He was a disturber of the peace.
00:12:48.23\00:12:50.10
Today, you might call him
a religious lightning rod.
00:12:50.13\00:12:53.97
And there's one
thing Patrick wasn't.
00:12:54.00\00:12:56.50
He wasn't Irish.
00:12:56.54\00:12:59.04
He was born in the year
385 A.D. or thereabouts,
00:12:59.07\00:13:03.35
and he died around 461 A.D.
00:13:03.38\00:13:06.98
At that time, the
British Isles were pagan.
00:13:07.02\00:13:10.49
They were
dominated by the culture
00:13:10.52\00:13:12.22
and the religious
practices of the Druids,
00:13:12.25\00:13:15.22
an elite class that had a
direct line to the occult.
00:13:15.26\00:13:19.46
By the time Patrick
came onto the scene,
00:13:19.49\00:13:21.50
druidism was at the
height of its powers.
00:13:21.53\00:13:25.63
Druid literature
speaks of the magical
00:13:25.67\00:13:28.97
and spiritual
training of the Druid,
00:13:29.00\00:13:31.67
in which he is eaten by a
goddess, enters into her belly,
00:13:31.71\00:13:35.88
and is reborn as the
greatest poet in the land.
00:13:35.91\00:13:40.18
Mention of druidism
evokes images of wizardry.
00:13:40.22\00:13:43.49
And the Druids in
Patrick's day were into magic
00:13:43.52\00:13:46.45
and charms and healing powers.
00:13:46.49\00:13:48.39
They foretold the future.
00:13:48.42\00:13:50.66
And they worshipped
the forces of nature.
00:13:50.69\00:13:52.73
They've been referred to as
magico-religious specialists,
00:13:52.76\00:13:57.23
and it's said that
they could call up a storm
00:13:57.27\00:14:00.80
to ward off invaders.
00:14:00.84\00:14:03.27
Now, while most modern scholars
would not agree with this,
00:14:03.30\00:14:07.01
no less a person
than Julius Caesar
00:14:07.04\00:14:09.31
made the claim that the Druids
practiced human sacrifice,
00:14:09.34\00:14:13.68
burning their victims in a
device known as a “wicker man.”
00:14:13.72\00:14:17.89
Caesar also said that
they believed in reincarnation.
00:14:17.92\00:14:21.32
Modern scholars
say that the Druids
00:14:21.36\00:14:23.19
were essentially
shaman, spiritualists.
00:14:23.22\00:14:27.10
>>Dr. Trim: So the
religious situation in Ireland
00:14:27.13\00:14:28.86
in the 5th century is that it is
the last holdout of the Druids,
00:14:28.90\00:14:32.70
the Druids who had once been the
predominant religious figures
00:14:32.73\00:14:36.00
right across the
British Isles and, indeed,
00:14:36.04\00:14:38.47
the north part of
what we now call France.
00:14:38.51\00:14:40.68
But they had been largely
stamped out by the Romans,
00:14:40.71\00:14:43.01
who found their
religious practices
00:14:43.04\00:14:44.75
such as human
sacrifice objectionable.
00:14:44.78\00:14:47.15
Um, there's very little
evidence of human sacrifice
00:14:47.18\00:14:50.55
being practiced
by Patrick's day,
00:14:50.59\00:14:53.25
but the Druids are there.
00:14:53.29\00:14:54.49
This is a religion
that is really focused on,
00:14:54.52\00:14:57.46
on nature and on spirits.
00:14:57.49\00:14:59.96
Uh, but it is a fairly
sophisticated religion as well.
00:15:00.06\00:15:02.80
They had education;
they were well-educated men
00:15:02.83\00:15:06.84
by the standards of the time.
00:15:06.87\00:15:08.40
And they had reasonably
well worked out cosmology
00:15:08.44\00:15:11.54
and a pantheon of gods.
00:15:11.57\00:15:13.31
Um, but the Druid, druidic
religion, as far as we can tell,
00:15:13.34\00:15:18.01
does seem to be in a little bit
of decline by the 5th century.
00:15:18.05\00:15:20.75
It's past its
heyday, and so, uh,
00:15:20.78\00:15:23.69
there is this
emphasis on spirits.
00:15:23.72\00:15:26.62
Uh, and where therein might
still be some human sacrifice
00:15:26.65\00:15:30.76
is that we know people are
found in the bogs of Ireland,
00:15:30.79\00:15:33.53
in the peat.
00:15:33.56\00:15:34.66
Now, some of them clearly
ended up there accidentally,
00:15:34.73\00:15:36.56
tripped and fell, oh, too bad.
00:15:36.60\00:15:38.63
But others we know, uh,
are offered as sacrifices.
00:15:38.67\00:15:42.37
Because you're
hoping that by doing that,
00:15:42.40\00:15:45.44
you can ensure
you have good weather,
00:15:45.47\00:15:47.84
a good harvest,
00:15:47.88\00:15:49.01
because everything
depends on the harvest,
00:15:49.04\00:15:50.71
and so you want to
appease the natural deities.
00:15:50.75\00:15:54.18
>>John: It was this paganism
that confronted St. Patrick
00:15:55.08\00:15:57.89
during his ministry
to the Irish people.
00:15:57.92\00:16:00.79
Druid magicians hindered the
work Patrick was trying to do.
00:16:00.82\00:16:04.69
The Druids resented Patrick,
00:16:04.73\00:16:06.56
knowing that his ministry
was the beginning of the end
00:16:06.59\00:16:09.30
for druidism.
00:16:09.33\00:16:11.77
Patrick was born in Britain,
00:16:11.80\00:16:13.64
which at the time was
controlled by the Roman Empire.
00:16:13.67\00:16:17.34
Exactly where he was
born no one really knows,
00:16:17.37\00:16:20.08
although it seems likely
that he was born on or near
00:16:20.11\00:16:23.61
England's west coast.
00:16:23.65\00:16:26.11
His family evidently
was reasonably well off.
00:16:26.15\00:16:28.42
Both his father
and his grandfather
00:16:28.45\00:16:30.45
worked in religious service.
00:16:30.49\00:16:32.05
But Patrick, as a young man,
00:16:32.09\00:16:34.29
didn't take
matters of faith seriously.
00:16:34.32\00:16:37.76
When he was 16 years old,
00:16:37.79\00:16:39.46
he was captured by raiders sent
or led by Ireland's King Niall.
00:16:39.49\00:16:44.83
He spent six years
toiling as a shepherd,
00:16:44.87\00:16:47.94
and it was during this
time that he found faith in God
00:16:47.97\00:16:52.27
for himself.
00:16:52.31\00:16:53.64
¤[Music]¤
00:16:53.68\00:16:55.34
God spoke to Patrick and told
him to flee to the Irish coast,
00:16:55.38\00:16:59.41
where he'd find a ship
waiting to take him home.
00:16:59.45\00:17:02.58
So he left his master,
00:17:02.62\00:17:04.15
traveled many miles to a port,
and he found the promised ship.
00:17:04.19\00:17:08.96
He traveled back to England and
made his way back to his family.
00:17:08.99\00:17:12.46
And it was there and then
that he dedicated his life
00:17:12.49\00:17:16.53
to serving God.
00:17:16.56\00:17:18.77
So how did
Patrick, the runaway slave,
00:17:18.80\00:17:22.30
become St. Patrick, known
and loved all the world over?
00:17:22.34\00:17:27.34
And what does Patrick have to do
with the Protestant Reformation?
00:17:27.38\00:17:31.11
I'll tell you
more in just a moment.
00:17:31.15\00:17:33.55
¤[Music]¤
00:17:33.58\00:17:38.32
>>John: We look around the
world and it appears this planet
00:17:39.99\00:17:42.19
is spinning out of
control in many ways.
00:17:42.22\00:17:45.23
The world of today is a far
cry from the world of yesterday.
00:17:45.26\00:17:48.56
Is there hope?
00:17:48.60\00:17:49.80
Yes, there is.
00:17:49.83\00:17:50.93
Our free offer today is
"Hope for a Planet in Crisis."
00:17:50.97\00:17:54.70
Call us on (800) 253-3000,
00:17:54.74\00:17:57.81
or visit us online
at www.itiswritten.com.
00:17:57.84\00:18:03.08
Or you can write to
the address on your screen.
00:18:03.11\00:18:05.68
I'd like you to
receive our free offer,
00:18:05.71\00:18:07.65
"Hope for a Planet in Crisis."
00:18:07.68\00:18:09.58
[Cricketts chirping]
00:18:10.52\00:18:14.59
¤[Music]¤
00:18:14.62\00:18:22.60
[Camera equipment rattling]
00:18:22.63\00:18:25.07
[Rustling in bushes]
00:18:25.10\00:18:27.80
[People talking]
00:18:27.84\00:18:30.21
[Wind blowing]
00:18:30.24\00:18:35.24
¤[Music]¤
00:18:35.28\00:18:45.32
¤[Music]¤
00:18:45.32\00:18:55.06
[Cheering]
00:18:55.10\00:19:03.07
¤[Music]¤
00:19:04.94\00:19:17.55
¤[Irish music]¤
00:19:18.29\00:19:24.86
>>John: Thanks for joining
me today on It Is Written.
00:19:24.89\00:19:27.56
He's known all around the world,
00:19:27.60\00:19:29.23
and he's celebrated
every March the 17th.
00:19:29.26\00:19:32.27
But who was St. Patrick,
00:19:32.30\00:19:34.34
and what did he do
that made him a global icon?
00:19:34.37\00:19:37.94
Well, to begin with, he
wasn't Irish; he was English.
00:19:37.97\00:19:42.08
And he wasn't a Roman Catholic.
00:19:42.11\00:19:44.48
The principles that he
lived by and shared with others
00:19:44.51\00:19:46.72
made him a forerunner of
the Protestant Reformation,
00:19:46.75\00:19:49.52
which would occur
many years after he died.
00:19:49.55\00:19:52.19
He was taken from
his home in England
00:19:52.22\00:19:54.12
by Irish raiders
when he was a boy,
00:19:54.16\00:19:56.39
and he was forced
into slavery in Ireland.
00:19:56.42\00:20:00.06
He eventually escaped,
00:20:00.10\00:20:01.50
and he wrote that
after studying in France
00:20:01.53\00:20:03.87
and returning to
his home in England,
00:20:03.90\00:20:06.57
he had a vision,
00:20:06.60\00:20:08.04
not unlike a vision
Paul had in the book of Acts.
00:20:08.07\00:20:12.01
“I saw a man coming,
as it were from Ireland.
00:20:12.04\00:20:15.74
His name was Victoricus,
and he carried many letters,
00:20:15.78\00:20:20.32
and he gave me one of them.
00:20:20.35\00:20:22.12
I read the headling:
‘The Voice of the Irish.'
00:20:22.15\00:20:25.75
As I began the letter,
00:20:25.79\00:20:27.49
I imagined in that
moment that I heard the voice
00:20:27.52\00:20:30.26
of those very people who
were near the wood of Foclut,
00:20:30.29\00:20:34.00
which is beside the western sea,
00:20:34.00\00:20:36.33
and they cried
out, as with one voice,
00:20:36.36\00:20:39.10
‘We appeal to
you, holy servant boy,
00:20:39.13\00:20:41.57
to come and walk among us.'”
00:20:41.60\00:20:45.31
Eventually, Patrick
acted on the vision he received
00:20:45.34\00:20:48.38
and returned to Ireland
to work as a missionary.
00:20:48.41\00:20:51.91
He landed at the same port from
which he had escaped Ireland,
00:20:51.95\00:20:55.92
and began his ministry in
Tara, just north of Dublin,
00:20:55.95\00:21:00.06
in what today is
the Republic of Ireland.
00:21:00.09\00:21:02.89
And before long, the
son of a powerful chieftain
00:21:02.92\00:21:05.13
in the north of
Ireland was converted
00:21:05.16\00:21:07.60
and joined
Patrick's missionary team.
00:21:07.66\00:21:10.17
Thousands were baptized,
00:21:10.20\00:21:11.80
among them many who
were wealthy and influential.
00:21:11.83\00:21:15.60
Patrick ordained
pastors throughout the island
00:21:15.64\00:21:17.84
to shepherd these new
Christian communities.
00:21:17.87\00:21:20.71
Here's what he said
about the new Irish believers:
00:21:20.74\00:21:24.18
“Never before
did they know of God
00:21:24.21\00:21:26.01
except to serve
idols and unclean things.
00:21:26.05\00:21:29.78
But now, they've 
become the people of the Lord,
00:21:29.82\00:21:32.75
and are called children of God.
00:21:32.79\00:21:36.12
The sons and daughters
of the leaders of the Irish
00:21:36.16\00:21:39.06
are seen to be monks
and virgins of Christ.”
00:21:39.09\00:21:43.00
There's plenty said
about Patrick's life
00:21:43.03\00:21:45.43
that's nothing more than legend.
00:21:45.47\00:21:47.87
No, he didn't chase all
the snakes out of Ireland.
00:21:47.90\00:21:51.71
There'd never been any snakes
in Ireland in the first place.
00:21:51.74\00:21:54.98
They certainly didn't attack him
00:21:55.01\00:21:56.41
after he had fasted for 40 days.
00:21:56.44\00:21:59.08
His walking stick
did not grow into a tree.
00:21:59.11\00:22:03.32
And he never used the
shamrock to teach the Irish
00:22:03.35\00:22:05.99
about the trinity.
00:22:06.02\00:22:08.42
Patrick sailed from near
Drogheda to just outside Belfast
00:22:08.46\00:22:12.86
where he began
sharing the gospel with people
00:22:12.89\00:22:14.83
who for the most part
had zero working knowledge
00:22:14.86\00:22:18.03
of the plan of salvation.
00:22:18.07\00:22:19.77
Now, Patrick wasn't the
first missionary to Ireland,
00:22:19.80\00:22:22.90
but he was the first to gain
any real traction and establish
00:22:22.94\00:22:26.47
an effective, far-reaching work.
00:22:26.51\00:22:29.78
So what was it that drove
00:22:29.81\00:22:31.75
this Bible-believing
missionary forward?
00:22:31.78\00:22:34.42
As the church lost
its focus on the Bible,
00:22:34.45\00:22:37.82
its increasing popularity
within the Roman Empire
00:22:37.85\00:22:40.56
caused it to compromise
its faith and witness.
00:22:40.59\00:22:44.36
However, there were
many Christians who put up
00:22:44.39\00:22:47.03
strong resistance to this new
alliance of church and state.
00:22:47.03\00:22:52.23
During these centuries, the
Celtic Christians set a pattern
00:22:52.27\00:22:56.17
of independence
from the church of Rome.
00:22:56.20\00:22:59.14
Like the reformers
which would follow them later,
00:22:59.17\00:23:02.04
they held to the
Bible as their exclusive
00:23:02.08\00:23:04.88
and supreme spiritual authority.
00:23:04.91\00:23:07.88
Historians had this
to say about Patrick:
00:23:07.92\00:23:10.99
“He never mentions
either Rome or the pope
00:23:11.02\00:23:13.66
or hints that he
was in any way connected
00:23:13.69\00:23:15.92
with the
ecclesiastical capital of Italy.
00:23:15.96\00:23:19.33
He recognizes no other authority
but that of the Word of God.
00:23:19.36\00:23:23.97
If he were sent by Celestine
to the native Christians
00:23:24.00\00:23:26.74
to be their
primate or archbishop,
00:23:26.77\00:23:29.10
no wonder that stout-hearted
Patrick refused to bow his neck
00:23:29.14\00:23:33.07
to any such yoke of bondage.
00:23:33.11\00:23:36.75
There is strong
evidence that Patrick had no
00:23:36.78\00:23:38.88
Roman commission in Ireland,
Patrick's churches in Ireland,
00:23:38.91\00:23:42.68
like their brethren in Britain,
00:23:42.72\00:23:44.72
repudiated the
supremacy of the popes,
00:23:44.75\00:23:47.89
all knowledge of the conversion
of Ireland through his ministry
00:23:47.92\00:23:50.53
must be suppressed.
00:23:50.56\00:23:52.73
There is not a
written word from one of them
00:23:52.76\00:23:54.50
rejoicing over Patrick's
additions to their church,
00:23:54.56\00:23:57.70
showing clearly that he
was not a Roman missionary.”
00:23:57.73\00:24:01.74
>>Dr. Trim: In the 5th century
there is only one church.
00:24:01.77\00:24:05.01
Uh, and there's
still a connection between
00:24:05.04\00:24:07.21
Britain and Rome.
00:24:07.24\00:24:08.41
It's in the middle 5th
century that that gets severed,
00:24:08.44\00:24:10.61
and the British Isles gets
cut off from the Roman Empire.
00:24:10.65\00:24:14.18
Um, but at that point
here is still one church,
00:24:14.22\00:24:16.35
and Patrick is a member of it,
00:24:16.38\00:24:17.95
from all the
evidence we have, um,
00:24:17.99\00:24:20.79
and we know that
that church actually sent,
00:24:20.82\00:24:22.99
sent Germanus to Britain in
429, and one of his colleagues,
00:24:23.02\00:24:27.23
Palladius, is believed
to have gone to Ireland.
00:24:27.23\00:24:30.07
Um, but he seems to
have minimal impact.
00:24:30.10\00:24:32.37
But that's the
church that they're part of.
00:24:32.40\00:24:34.00
But it's really the inheritance
of the primitive church
00:24:34.04\00:24:36.91
of Christ's day.
00:24:36.94\00:24:38.47
Um, if we say
the Catholic Church,
00:24:38.51\00:24:41.24
then people
think of St. Peter's,
00:24:41.28\00:24:43.21
and a whole series of things
00:24:43.24\00:24:45.81
which just don't
exist in the 5th century.
00:24:45.85\00:24:49.28
So to, you know, the
danger of saying that he's
00:24:49.32\00:24:52.55
a Roman Catholic missionary,
it's true in one sense,
00:24:52.59\00:24:55.92
but it's not true in another,
00:24:55.96\00:24:57.93
because it's, it, there
just isn't a church like,
00:24:57.96\00:25:02.20
called the
Roman Catholic Church.
00:25:02.23\00:25:03.53
There is the one
church, which is called Catholic
00:25:03.57\00:25:07.44
at the time to
distinguish it from Arians,
00:25:07.47\00:25:09.57
uh, who don't believe in
the full divinity of Christ.
00:25:09.60\00:25:12.91
That's what Catholic
means in the 5th century;
00:25:12.94\00:25:15.68
it means somebody who
is an orthodox Christian
00:25:15.71\00:25:18.25
on the Trinity.
00:25:18.28\00:25:19.48
And Patrick is definitely that.
00:25:19.51\00:25:22.55
So what we know about Patrick
comes largely from his writings.
00:25:22.58\00:25:29.02
There are stories,
00:25:29.06\00:25:30.16
but most of them were
written down in the 7th century.
00:25:30.19\00:25:32.89
So 200 years after he died.
00:25:32.93\00:25:34.83
So there's probably some
grains of truth left in them,
00:25:34.83\00:25:39.30
but a lot of exaggeration.
00:25:39.33\00:25:41.50
To judge from his own writings,
he's a relatively simple,
00:25:41.54\00:25:44.94
uh, Christian.
00:25:44.97\00:25:45.91
His theology is, is
relatively simplistic.
00:25:45.94\00:25:49.34
And that's not a
criticism; far from it.
00:25:49.38\00:25:52.05
Uh, he's definitely trinitarian;
he believes very strongly,
00:25:52.08\00:25:56.08
uh, in God the Father, God
the Son, and the Holy Spirit,
00:25:56.12\00:25:59.05
and he's very focused on Christ.
00:25:59.09\00:26:00.56
But he has a simple message,
00:26:00.59\00:26:01.86
and he has a burning passion
for the people of Ireland,
00:26:01.89\00:26:05.39
who had enslaved him as a youth.
00:26:05.43\00:26:08.33
But even after he
was free, he recognized,
00:26:08.36\00:26:10.33
these people are
lost in superstition
00:26:10.37\00:26:13.03
and I have good news for them.
00:26:13.07\00:26:14.57
¤[Music]¤
00:26:14.60\00:26:15.77
A century after Patrick,
00:26:15.80\00:26:17.67
the Church of
Rome launched an attack
00:26:17.71\00:26:19.64
on the Celtic
communities of Western Europe,
00:26:19.67\00:26:22.78
because the Irish customs of
the Celtic church were at odds
00:26:22.81\00:26:26.08
with the customs sanctioned
by the Bishop of Rome,
00:26:26.11\00:26:28.78
who by now had become
a very powerful figure.
00:26:28.82\00:26:31.72
But Patrick wasn't the only one
00:26:31.75\00:26:34.06
who was reaching the
world with the gospel.
00:26:34.09\00:26:36.66
After Patrick, there was Aidan,
00:26:36.69\00:26:39.19
who as a
missionary went to England
00:26:39.23\00:26:41.26
and reached not
only the high nobility,
00:26:41.30\00:26:44.10
but also children and slaves.
00:26:44.13\00:26:45.93
And he traveled extensively.
00:26:45.97\00:26:47.97
Like Patrick,
00:26:48.00\00:26:48.97
he wasn't affiliated
with the Roman church.
00:26:49.00\00:26:52.11
Aidan established a cathedral
00:26:52.14\00:26:54.04
off the
northeastern coast of England
00:26:54.08\00:26:55.74
on the island of Lindisfarne,
00:26:55.78\00:26:57.91
and from there he was
greatly influential in reaching
00:26:57.95\00:27:01.28
great numbers of
people for Christ,
00:27:01.32\00:27:02.92
especially in the
region of Northumbria.
00:27:02.95\00:27:06.82
And there was
another who reached
00:27:06.86\00:27:09.19
not only the British Isles,
00:27:09.22\00:27:10.83
but who impacted the world
with the message of the gospel.
00:27:10.86\00:27:15.46
He was from this
island of Ireland,
00:27:15.50\00:27:17.93
and I'll tell you who
he was in just a moment.
00:27:17.97\00:27:20.84
¤[Music]¤
00:27:20.87\00:27:25.04
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Call 800-992-2219.
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¤[Irish music]¤
00:28:56.83\00:29:05.44
>>John: Thanks for
joining me on It Is Written.
00:29:05.47\00:29:08.24
Right here on this very
spot in Belfast, Ireland,
00:29:08.28\00:29:11.35
there was a hive of activity
a little over 100 years ago.
00:29:11.38\00:29:15.15
Right here is where
the Titanic was built.
00:29:15.18\00:29:18.35
Not only the
Titanic, but its sister ships,
00:29:18.39\00:29:20.49
the Olympic and the Britannic.
00:29:20.52\00:29:22.79
Thousands of workers
labored on this very spot.
00:29:22.82\00:29:25.76
What happened here then
dominated not only this city,
00:29:25.79\00:29:29.40
but went on to impact the world.
00:29:29.43\00:29:32.40
Somebody else
labored here in Ireland
00:29:32.43\00:29:34.77
whose work impacted the world,
00:29:34.80\00:29:36.64
and that was Patrick.
00:29:36.67\00:29:38.44
Patrick was a
dynamic Christian missionary,
00:29:38.47\00:29:41.48
and from Ireland his influence
spread to impact Christians
00:29:41.51\00:29:45.65
and Christianity
all around the world.
00:29:45.68\00:29:48.88
In the time of Patrick,
the church was dominated
00:29:48.92\00:29:51.59
by the popes of Rome,
00:29:51.62\00:29:53.36
and they were not too keen
with what Patrick was doing.
00:29:53.39\00:29:56.39
They saw it as a direct
threat against their authority,
00:29:56.42\00:29:59.49
and they were
committed to getting rid
00:29:59.53\00:30:00.86
of the distinctive
Irish religious practices.
00:30:00.90\00:30:04.63
But it wasn't only
Patrick that impacted the world
00:30:04.67\00:30:07.70
in those days.
00:30:07.74\00:30:08.84
Aidan was an Irish missionary
who traveled to England
00:30:08.87\00:30:12.87
and won many there
to faith in Christ.
00:30:12.91\00:30:16.21
He was sent from the
remote Scottish island of Iona,
00:30:16.24\00:30:20.32
where a
missionary training center
00:30:20.35\00:30:21.85
had been established by
another Irish evangelist,
00:30:21.88\00:30:25.55
a man by the name of Columba.
00:30:25.59\00:30:28.76
Today, Columba is remembered
00:30:28.79\00:30:30.33
as one of the three
chief saints of Ireland,
00:30:30.36\00:30:33.40
along with Patrick
and Brigit of Kildare.
00:30:33.43\00:30:36.87
He was born in Donegal,
in the northwest of Ireland,
00:30:36.90\00:30:40.04
in the year 521.
00:30:40.07\00:30:42.57
When he was about 40 years old
00:30:42.60\00:30:44.07
he set off with several
others to evangelize the Picts.
00:30:44.11\00:30:48.24
He traveled 100 miles to
Iona and built a monastery,
00:30:48.28\00:30:53.11
not as a retreat, but as a
missionary training center.
00:30:53.15\00:30:57.19
The Venerable Bede, the
influential writer and scholar,
00:30:57.22\00:31:00.86
said that Columba “converted the
nation to the faith of Christ,
00:31:00.89\00:31:04.93
by preaching and example.”
00:31:04.96\00:31:07.76
As well as being an
evangelist and a missionary,
00:31:07.76\00:31:09.70
there was something
else that set Columba apart.
00:31:09.73\00:31:12.93
In contrast with
the Church of Rome,
00:31:12.97\00:31:15.80
he observed the
Sabbath on Saturday,
00:31:15.84\00:31:18.51
the seventh day of the week.
00:31:18.54\00:31:20.61
There's no evidence he
ever kept Sunday as the Sabbath.
00:31:20.64\00:31:24.51
Dr. Leslie Hardinge examined
every primary source connected
00:31:24.55\00:31:27.88
with the Celtic church,
00:31:27.92\00:31:29.55
and confirmed this
Celtic-Sabbath connection.
00:31:29.58\00:31:33.32
Just before he
died, Columba said,
00:31:33.36\00:31:35.92
“This day is called in
the sacred books ‘Sabbath,'
00:31:35.96\00:31:40.10
which is interpreted ‘rest.'
00:31:40.13\00:31:41.83
And truly this day
is for me a Sabbath,
00:31:41.86\00:31:45.97
because it is my last day
of this present laborious life.
00:31:46.00\00:31:50.14
In it after my
toilsome labors I keep Sabbath.
00:31:50.17\00:31:55.44
One historian wrote,
00:31:55.48\00:31:57.15
“We find traces in the early
monastic churches of Ireland
00:31:57.18\00:32:00.85
that they held
Saturday to be the Sabbath
00:32:00.88\00:32:03.69
on which they rested
from all their labors.”
00:32:03.72\00:32:07.99
Later, in the 11th century,
Queen Margaret of Scotland
00:32:08.02\00:32:11.46
said this about
Scottish Christians.
00:32:11.49\00:32:13.70
She said, “They work on Sunday,
00:32:13.73\00:32:15.90
but they keep Saturday
after a sabbatical manner.”
00:32:15.93\00:32:19.80
But Queen Margaret,
00:32:19.83\00:32:20.77
later Saint Margaret
in the Catholic Church,
00:32:20.80\00:32:23.30
was committed to
eradicated Sabbath worship
00:32:23.34\00:32:26.81
and replacing it
instead with worship on Sunday.
00:32:26.84\00:32:30.55
The Roman Emperor Constantine,
00:32:30.58\00:32:32.48
who was a pagan sun worshipper
00:32:32.51\00:32:34.55
before his nominal
conversion to Christianity,
00:32:34.58\00:32:38.29
was the first to
degree Sunday worship,
00:32:38.32\00:32:41.26
and he did it
before Patrick's time.
00:32:41.29\00:32:43.76
But the Irish Christians
were not bound by Roman decrees.
00:32:43.79\00:32:49.66
One thousand years
before the beginning
00:32:49.70\00:32:51.77
of the Protestant Reformation,
Patrick was a nonconformist.
00:32:51.80\00:32:56.00
Before there was a reformation,
00:32:56.04\00:32:57.91
Patrick was a Protestant.
00:32:57.94\00:33:01.78
In this way, the
Celtic church formed part of
00:33:01.81\00:33:04.81
what the Bible refers to as
the “Church in the Wilderness”
00:33:04.85\00:33:08.05
during the Middle Ages.
00:33:08.08\00:33:09.85
John wrote about this time of
exile for Christian believers.
00:33:09.88\00:33:12.82
He said in
Revelation 12 and verse 6,
00:33:12.85\00:33:15.62
“And the woman,”
that's the church,
00:33:15.66\00:33:17.59
“fled into the wilderness,
00:33:17.63\00:33:19.26
where she has a
place prepared by God.”
00:33:19.29\00:33:22.50
The Albigenses
of southern France,
00:33:22.53\00:33:24.40
the Waldenses of
Italy and the Alps,
00:33:24.43\00:33:26.50
and others like them,
00:33:26.53\00:33:28.04
chose to base
their faith on the Bible,
00:33:28.07\00:33:30.51
rather than lining up
behind a church that was placing
00:33:30.54\00:33:32.84
such a strong
emphasis on tradition.
00:33:32.87\00:33:35.34
They kept the torch of Christian
faith shining brightly in an era
00:33:35.38\00:33:39.58
of what was some pretty
considerable spiritual darkness.
00:33:39.61\00:33:42.85
¤[Music]¤
00:33:42.88\00:33:46.82
Unfortunately, the Christians
of Ireland and Scotland
00:33:46.86\00:33:50.46
didn't maintain their
religious freedom indefinitely.
00:33:50.49\00:33:54.03
In time, new rulers came
to power in both countries
00:33:54.10\00:33:57.53
who submitted the practices
of both church and state
00:33:57.57\00:34:00.50
to the rule of
the Catholic Church.
00:34:00.54\00:34:03.64
But the legacy of
the Celtic church,
00:34:03.67\00:34:05.87
and Patrick in particular,
was destined to live on.
00:34:05.91\00:34:10.58
The spirit of
independence from Rome
00:34:10.61\00:34:13.01
was nurtured by the
original British church.
00:34:13.05\00:34:16.45
Submission to rules of any
sort on the European continent,
00:34:16.48\00:34:19.35
ecclesiastical or political,
00:34:19.39\00:34:21.49
didn't come easy to
the British or the Irish.
00:34:21.52\00:34:23.29
¤[bagpipes]¤
00:34:23.32\00:34:24.39
When King Henry the Eighth
00:34:24.43\00:34:26.03
declared England
free from the Roman church
00:34:26.06\00:34:28.80
and established the Church of
England, or the Anglican Church,
00:34:28.83\00:34:32.70
he was simply enshrining in
law what in millions of English
00:34:32.73\00:34:36.40
minds had been
true for centuries.
00:34:36.44\00:34:39.24
Speaking prophetically of this
time, the prophet Daniel wrote
00:34:39.27\00:34:41.91
in Daniel 11:32 and 33,
00:34:41.94\00:34:44.35
“The people who know
their God shall be strong
00:34:44.38\00:34:47.25
and carry out great exploits.
00:34:47.28\00:34:49.72
And those of the people that
understand shall instruct many.”
00:34:49.75\00:34:53.59
This is the true
legacy of Patrick,
00:34:53.62\00:34:55.49
and of the Celtic church,
00:34:55.52\00:34:57.79
and those heroes of
faith who held the true gospel
00:34:57.83\00:35:01.96
in the centuries
prior to the Reformation.
00:35:02.00\00:35:05.03
Without this gospel
00:35:05.07\00:35:06.23
seed having been sown and
scattered by Patrick and others,
00:35:06.27\00:35:10.37
the Reformation
might never have happened.
00:35:10.41\00:35:14.31
It's said that
Patrick died on March the 17th
00:35:14.34\00:35:17.45
in the year 461 A.D.,
00:35:17.48\00:35:19.85
and that he's buried right
here outside Down Cathedral in
00:35:19.88\00:35:25.92
Downpatrick in northern Ireland,
00:35:25.95\00:35:28.52
alongside Brigid and Columba,
00:35:28.56\00:35:31.46
two other giants
of Irish history.
00:35:31.49\00:35:34.63
The legend of
Patrick lives on here.
00:35:34.66\00:35:37.47
The truth of his life is even
more impressive than the legend.
00:35:37.50\00:35:41.77
¤[Music]¤
00:35:41.80\00:35:46.37
>>John: I'm John
Bradshaw from It Is Written,
00:35:46.41\00:35:49.24
inviting you to join me for 500,
00:35:49.28\00:35:52.91
nine programs
produced by It Is Written
00:35:52.95\00:35:55.18
taking you deep
into the Reformation.
00:35:55.22\00:35:58.35
This is the 500th
anniversary of the beginning
00:35:58.39\00:36:01.46
of the Reformation,
00:36:01.49\00:36:02.66
when Martin Luther
nailed his 95 theses to the door
00:36:02.69\00:36:05.59
of the Castle church
in Wittenburg, Germany.
00:36:05.63\00:36:08.00
We'll take you to
Wittenburg, and to Belgium,
00:36:08.03\00:36:10.20
to England,
00:36:10.23\00:36:11.07
to Ireland,
00:36:11.10\00:36:12.60
to Rome,
00:36:12.63\00:36:13.44
to the Vatican City,
00:36:13.47\00:36:14.67
and introduce you to the people
who created the Reformation,
00:36:14.70\00:36:17.71
who pushed the
Reformation forward.
00:36:17.74\00:36:19.71
We'll take you to
sites all throughout Europe
00:36:19.74\00:36:21.64
where the reformers
lived and, in some cases, died.
00:36:21.68\00:36:24.51
We'll bring you
back to the United States
00:36:24.55\00:36:26.15
and take you to a little
farm in upstate New York,
00:36:26.18\00:36:29.18
and show you how God
spread the Reformation here.
00:36:29.22\00:36:32.12
Don't miss 500.
00:36:32.15\00:36:34.12
You can own the
500 series on DVD.
00:36:34.16\00:36:37.09
Call us on 888-664-5573,
00:36:37.13\00:36:41.80
or visit us online
at itiswritten.shop.
00:36:41.83\00:36:46.67
>>John: Thanks for
joining me on It Is Written.
00:36:47.84\00:36:49.47
This is 500. I'm John Bradshaw.
00:36:49.50\00:36:51.37
My guest is Dr. David
Trim, a Reformation historian.
00:36:51.41\00:36:55.94
Dr. Trim, how would
you explain or describe
00:36:55.98\00:36:58.68
the religious
situation in Ireland today?
00:36:58.71\00:37:01.62
>>Dr. Trim: That's an
excellent question, John.
00:37:01.65\00:37:03.52
The situation today is in flux,
00:37:03.55\00:37:05.65
in a way that
wasn't true in the past.
00:37:05.69\00:37:07.69
You can say,
isn't it always in flux?
00:37:07.72\00:37:09.42
But there used to
be great stability.
00:37:09.46\00:37:11.73
Ireland was Catholic
except for the north,
00:37:11.76\00:37:14.73
which was zealously Protestant
and essentially Presbyterian,
00:37:14.76\00:37:17.83
that type of Protestant.
00:37:17.87\00:37:19.73
But today things are changing.
00:37:19.77\00:37:21.37
The impact of secularization,
00:37:21.40\00:37:23.84
postmodernism that's
affecting so much of Europe is,
00:37:23.87\00:37:27.24
is very much affecting Ireland.
00:37:27.28\00:37:29.41
It's still a much more religious
part of the world than any other
00:37:29.44\00:37:32.91
part of the British Isles,
00:37:32.95\00:37:34.08
and certainly much
more so than Scotland.
00:37:34.12\00:37:37.15
Um, but today the
winds of change are there,
00:37:37.19\00:37:40.42
and the Catholic church
no longer has a complete
00:37:40.46\00:37:43.53
social hegemony in Ireland,
00:37:43.56\00:37:45.13
which it did for almost
the whole of the history
00:37:45.16\00:37:47.83
of independent
Ireland since the early 1920s.
00:37:47.86\00:37:50.53
And even in the
north, uh Protestantism
00:37:50.57\00:37:53.80
is beginning to lose
its grip just a little bit.
00:37:53.84\00:37:56.67
>>John: Now, when you look
at the Roman Catholic Church
00:37:56.71\00:37:58.71
in Ireland, it
had been so strong,
00:37:58.74\00:38:00.94
and for so long,
00:38:00.98\00:38:02.24
and in recent years it's had
its fair share of challenges.
00:38:02.28\00:38:06.41
>>Dr. Trim: It has, and it
has faced unpleasant, for it,
00:38:06.45\00:38:09.95
controversies, um,
about the recent past.
00:38:09.98\00:38:13.92
Uh, the scandal of
priests abusing children,
00:38:13.96\00:38:17.63
for example, which has
taken place everywhere.
00:38:17.66\00:38:19.49
That's, the effects of
that have been felt in Ireland.
00:38:19.53\00:38:22.73
But also a scandal that has yet
to come to light anywhere else
00:38:22.76\00:38:25.97
but has been hugely
important in Ireland,
00:38:26.00\00:38:29.17
which is unmarried
mothers, many of them young,
00:38:29.20\00:38:32.91
teenagers or in
their early twenties, um,
00:38:32.94\00:38:34.88
sent to houses of
correction because Ireland,
00:38:34.91\00:38:39.55
being a very Catholic society,
00:38:39.58\00:38:40.98
it wasn't against
the laws, supposedly,
00:38:41.02\00:38:43.75
to have a child out of wedlock,
00:38:43.79\00:38:45.22
but society
frowned on it heavily.
00:38:45.25\00:38:47.12
And many of those
are badly treated,
00:38:47.16\00:38:49.22
and many of their children died.
00:38:49.26\00:38:50.69
And what's happening in
Ireland now is that people are
00:38:50.73\00:38:52.96
excavating cemeteries and
finding hundreds of bodies,
00:38:52.99\00:38:56.73
uh, of children who'd
died of abuse, effectively.
00:38:56.77\00:39:00.80
So this has been a huge shock,
00:39:00.84\00:39:02.64
uh, in Ireland and has
really undermined the authority
00:39:02.67\00:39:06.34
of the Catholic Church
that once was unquestioned.
00:39:06.37\00:39:08.94
>>John: Take me back a few years
to the time of the “Troubles.”
00:39:08.98\00:39:12.18
Now, I'm the right age; I
grew up during the “Troubles,”
00:39:12.21\00:39:15.28
albeit on the
other side of the world.
00:39:15.32\00:39:17.25
And names like Bobby Sands
were on the news every night,
00:39:17.29\00:39:20.46
and the Maze prison might
have been a prison in my own,
00:39:20.49\00:39:23.86
uh, province.
00:39:23.89\00:39:25.43
What was that like
for Ireland to go through?
00:39:25.46\00:39:28.53
What was daily
life like in that time?
00:39:28.56\00:39:32.03
>>Dr. Trim: It depends
where you were, of course.
00:39:32.07\00:39:33.57
You talk to people who
grew up there and say, well,
00:39:33.60\00:39:36.74
you know, most of
the time you were unaware
00:39:36.77\00:39:39.07
that anything was happening.
00:39:39.11\00:39:40.24
But the truth is, there's
that underpinning of violence
00:39:40.28\00:39:44.35
or the threat of violence.
00:39:44.38\00:39:45.21
And it dates back
to the late 1960s.
00:39:45.25\00:39:48.02
Northern Ireland
was a Protestant state.
00:39:48.05\00:39:50.25
Catholics did not
have full civil rights.
00:39:50.29\00:39:53.15
And in the ‘60s, partly
inspired by what was happening
00:39:53.19\00:39:56.09
in the United States
with Martin Luther King,
00:39:56.12\00:39:58.06
um, Irish Catholics
living in Ulster say,
00:39:58.09\00:40:02.03
“No, we should
have full civil rights.”
00:40:02.06\00:40:04.43
Um, the Protestant government
wasn't willing to concede those,
00:40:04.47\00:40:09.74
and so violence started.
00:40:09.77\00:40:11.64
>>John: It's stunning,
isn't it, to think that in a,
00:40:11.67\00:40:13.94
in a western
country, a civilized nation,
00:40:13.98\00:40:17.18
a generation ago,
00:40:17.21\00:40:18.75
there was an entire people
group, and no matter what side
00:40:18.78\00:40:21.05
of the fence you're on,
00:40:21.08\00:40:22.38
this is still stunning there's
an entire people group that was,
00:40:22.42\00:40:24.65
that was discriminated against
on the basis of their religion.
00:40:24.69\00:40:27.86
>>Dr. Trim: Simply on the
basis of their, their religion.
00:40:27.89\00:40:29.89
There is really no
significant ethnic difference
00:40:29.92\00:40:32.79
between the two.
00:40:32.83\00:40:33.80
It was oppression
based purely on religion,
00:40:33.83\00:40:36.97
and within the
lifetime of many of your viewers
00:40:37.00\00:40:38.87
at the very heart of
western civilization.
00:40:38.90\00:40:42.14
It is extraordinary.
00:40:42.17\00:40:43.41
>>John: Doesn't this speak a
little bit about what the human
00:40:43.44\00:40:44.87
heart is actually capable of?
00:40:44.91\00:40:46.11
We'd say, how can that be?
00:40:46.14\00:40:47.38
We're, we're
barely removed from that.
00:40:47.41\00:40:50.65
>>Dr. Trim: That's correct.
00:40:50.68\00:40:51.88
And today with even Ireland
becoming increasingly secular,
00:40:51.91\00:40:56.05
it might seem that
it could never happen.
00:40:56.08\00:40:58.09
But the truth is, people
feel passionate about religion.
00:40:58.12\00:41:01.39
It moves
something deep in our souls.
00:41:01.42\00:41:03.59
And if you
believe that somebody else
00:41:03.63\00:41:07.36
is somehow actually
in league with the devil
00:41:07.40\00:41:10.73
or is trying to
undermine the cause of Christ,
00:41:10.77\00:41:14.44
normal rules get suspended
when religion turns to conflict.
00:41:14.47\00:41:21.01
>>John: Let's turn back
the clock a little bit here.
00:41:21.04\00:41:22.34
We'll go back to
Patrick's day, 5th century.
00:41:22.38\00:41:24.41
What was, what was life
like in 5th century Ireland
00:41:24.45\00:41:28.32
and England, for that
matter, for young Patrick?
00:41:28.35\00:41:31.42
>>Dr. Trim: Life in the
5th century could be summarized
00:41:31.45\00:41:33.99
in the words of the political
philosopher Thomas Hobbs,
00:41:34.02\00:41:36.32
“nasty, brutish and short.”
00:41:36.36\00:41:37.99
Uh, because this is
the era of the collapse
00:41:38.03\00:41:40.83
of the Roman Empire.
00:41:40.86\00:41:41.80
The British Isles,
not Ireland, but England,
00:41:41.83\00:41:45.87
um, and southern
Scotland and most of Wales,
00:41:45.90\00:41:48.90
were part of the Roman Empire,
the acme of civilization,
00:41:48.94\00:41:52.97
a degree of civilization
00:41:53.01\00:41:54.41
not matched for
probably 1,600 years.
00:41:54.44\00:41:57.95
Uh, hot and cold running
water in towns and in the villas
00:41:57.98\00:42:02.78
that the aristocracy lived in.
00:42:02.82\00:42:04.42
Something that wouldn't be
matched until the 19th century.
00:42:04.45\00:42:08.06
And then it all collapses
under the endless pressure
00:42:08.09\00:42:11.23
of invasions by
barbarian tribes.
00:42:11.26\00:42:14.00
So people
living at the time, uh,
00:42:14.00\00:42:17.23
Christians certainly thought
they must be living at the end
00:42:17.27\00:42:21.20
of the world,
00:42:21.24\00:42:22.47
because they looked around them
and everywhere they saw violence
00:42:22.50\00:42:25.64
and collapse
and social disaster.
00:42:25.67\00:42:28.34
So that's the kind of, uh,
00:42:28.38\00:42:30.65
situation that
exists in the 5th century.
00:42:30.68\00:42:33.72
People, uh, feel that
their world is falling apart.
00:42:33.75\00:42:37.02
And you know
what? It actually was.
00:42:37.05\00:42:38.75
>>John: Dr. Trim,
what can you tell me about
00:42:38.79\00:42:40.66
Patrick's own faith in God?
00:42:40.69\00:42:42.09
>>Dr. Trim: John, I just want
to be a little cautious first.
00:42:42.12\00:42:46.09
Uh, it's, sometimes
some very big claims
00:42:46.13\00:42:48.56
are made about Patrick.
00:42:48.60\00:42:49.70
But the truth is, we
don't have a lot of evidence.
00:42:49.73\00:42:51.43
So this, I'm an
historian, and so I'm,
00:42:51.47\00:42:53.87
I'm bound to say this.
00:42:53.90\00:42:55.04
But the truth is,
00:42:55.07\00:42:56.20
we don't have a lot of
direct evidence about Patrick.
00:42:56.24\00:43:00.71
Okay, all that said,
00:43:00.74\00:43:01.98
there are some
things that we can say,
00:43:02.01\00:43:03.95
because we have
Patrick's own writings.
00:43:03.98\00:43:07.38
Very unusual
for the 5th century,
00:43:07.42\00:43:08.92
but we have
Patrick's own writings.
00:43:08.95\00:43:10.95
And Patrick clearly has
a burning Christian faith.
00:43:10.99\00:43:15.16
A simple faith.
00:43:15.19\00:43:16.02
There's no sign
of great theological
00:43:16.06\00:43:18.09
complexity in his thought.
00:43:18.13\00:43:20.23
Um, but that's not a
criticism [chuckles].
00:43:20.26\00:43:23.13
Sometimes great
theological complexity
00:43:23.16\00:43:24.80
can actually be a negative.
00:43:24.83\00:43:26.90
But, so he has a
relatively straightforward
00:43:26.94\00:43:29.84
and simple Christian faith.
00:43:29.87\00:43:31.51
Uh, it's very much
a trinitarian faith,
00:43:31.54\00:43:34.54
which is important to note
because in the 5th century,
00:43:34.58\00:43:37.21
this is a century
of conflict between
00:43:37.25\00:43:39.48
orthodox Catholic Christians,
00:43:39.51\00:43:41.25
as they call themselves,
00:43:41.28\00:43:43.25
which is in
opposition to Arian Christians,
00:43:43.28\00:43:45.85
people who deny the
full divinity of Christ.
00:43:45.89\00:43:48.86
Patrick is clearly
trinitarian from his writings,
00:43:48.89\00:43:51.49
believes in the triune God,
00:43:51.53\00:43:53.63
but he's also has a
very strong Christology.
00:43:53.66\00:43:56.20
Christ is important to him.
00:43:56.23\00:43:58.20
But what he also has is a
desire to share Jesus Christ.
00:43:58.23\00:44:03.51
And not everybody had
that in the 5th century either.
00:44:03.54\00:44:07.24
There were those
who said the barbarians,
00:44:07.28\00:44:09.68
they are a scourge sent
from God; they are our enemy.
00:44:09.71\00:44:13.42
Why would we
try to convert them?
00:44:13.45\00:44:16.12
But not Patrick.
00:44:16.15\00:44:17.65
Patrick was enslaved as a boy.
00:44:17.69\00:44:20.69
He was seized by Irish raiders
who'd come across the Irish sea.
00:44:20.72\00:44:24.59
He was taken to a strange land,
00:44:24.63\00:44:26.56
an uncivilized land without the
comforts that existed in Britain
00:44:26.59\00:44:30.97
because it was part
of the Roman Empire.
00:44:31.00\00:44:32.60
He's enslaved there.
00:44:32.63\00:44:34.17
Eventually he gets
free and goes home.
00:44:34.20\00:44:37.54
He says, here are people
who need to hear about Jesus.
00:44:37.57\00:44:42.98
And he has a dream; it's
reminiscent of Paul's vision
00:44:43.01\00:44:47.25
of the Macedonian man
saying, “Come over and help us.”
00:44:47.28\00:44:49.92
Patrick sees in a dream an
Irish man basically saying,
00:44:49.95\00:44:53.96
“Come over and help
us.” And he's convicted.
00:44:53.99\00:44:58.33
And he does it.
00:44:58.36\00:45:00.76
>>John: Now, Patrick's not
the only great religious figure
00:45:00.80\00:45:03.13
to come out of that
part of the world with a,
00:45:03.16\00:45:04.63
with a similar bent.
00:45:04.67\00:45:06.84
What do we know
about Columba and Aiden?
00:45:06.87\00:45:09.54
They were also very
significant missionaries.
00:45:09.57\00:45:12.67
>>Dr. Trim: So the interesting
thing is that Ireland,
00:45:12.71\00:45:14.81
having been this
utterly pagan country,
00:45:14.84\00:45:16.85
becomes a
stronghold of Christianity.
00:45:16.88\00:45:18.91
And, in fact, the Anglos
and Saxons conquer Britain
00:45:18.95\00:45:24.72
and drive all the
Roman inhabitants into the
00:45:24.75\00:45:27.72
mountains of what today is
Wales and parts of Scotland.
00:45:27.76\00:45:31.29
And so Britain, which had been
the Christian country from which
00:45:31.33\00:45:34.00
Patrick went as a missionary,
00:45:34.00\00:45:35.80
is now a completely
unchristian country,
00:45:35.83\00:45:38.77
people who believe in
the, basically the Norse gods,
00:45:38.80\00:45:42.44
uh, pagan deities.
00:45:42.47\00:45:44.11
So Christianity is basically
extinguished in Britain.
00:45:44.14\00:45:48.04
So how is it going to come back?
00:45:48.08\00:45:49.38
Well, eventually
missionaries come from
00:45:49.41\00:45:51.45
the continent of Europe,
00:45:51.48\00:45:52.71
sent by what is then emerging
as the Roman Catholic Church.
00:45:52.75\00:45:55.95
But before that,
missionaries came from Ireland.
00:45:55.98\00:45:59.75
Who takes it back?
00:45:59.79\00:46:00.66
It's the Irish.
00:46:00.69\00:46:01.59
And the Irish, uh,
have this extraordinary
00:46:01.62\00:46:04.23
passion for Christianity,
which they still do.
00:46:04.26\00:46:07.00
Um, and so Ireland has,
becomes this stronghold.
00:46:07.03\00:46:10.30
Abbeys, monastic
communities for men and women,
00:46:10.33\00:46:13.00
where they take vows, uh,
to devote themselves to God,
00:46:13.03\00:46:16.97
become extremely
important in Ireland,
00:46:17.01\00:46:18.91
and they, they copy the gospel.
00:46:18.94\00:46:21.38
They copy the Bible
into the vernacular languages
00:46:21.41\00:46:24.51
as well as into Latin.
00:46:24.55\00:46:26.31
Uh, and so the way the Bible
survives in the British Isles
00:46:26.35\00:46:29.55
is because of these
monasteries, uh, in Ireland.
00:46:29.58\00:46:33.25
But then they also
send the missionaries back.
00:46:33.29\00:46:37.16
And two of the most
important are Columba and Aidan.
00:46:37.19\00:46:40.60
>>John: Dr.
Trim, fantastic stuff.
00:46:40.63\00:46:42.16
We'll be back with
more in just a moment.
00:46:42.20\00:46:43.50
Don't go away.
00:46:43.53\00:46:44.17
¤[Music]¤
00:46:44.20\00:46:49.37
>>John: We look around the
world and it appears this planet
00:46:50.57\00:46:52.71
is spinning out of
control in many ways.
00:46:52.74\00:46:55.74
The world of today is a far
cry from the world of yesterday.
00:46:55.78\00:46:59.11
Is there hope?
00:46:59.15\00:47:00.45
Yes, there is.
00:47:00.48\00:47:01.58
Our free offer today is
"Hope for a Planet in Crisis."
00:47:01.62\00:47:05.39
Call us on (800) 253-3000,
00:47:05.42\00:47:08.46
or visit us online
at www.itiswritten.com.
00:47:08.49\00:47:13.73
Or you can write to
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00:47:13.76\00:47:16.23
I'd like you to
receive our free offer,
00:47:16.26\00:47:18.07
"Hope for a Planet in Crisis."
00:47:18.10\00:47:20.07
>>John: Welcome back to 500,
brought to you by It Is Written.
00:47:20.90\00:47:23.54
My guest is Dr. David Trim,
00:47:23.57\00:47:25.37
an archivist and a
Reformation historian.
00:47:25.41\00:47:28.54
Dr. Trim, a moment ago we
were speaking about Columba
00:47:28.58\00:47:31.05
and Aidan, two
people you don't really hear
00:47:31.08\00:47:33.21
much about today in,
in general circumstances.
00:47:33.25\00:47:36.55
But they had a major impact
00:47:36.58\00:47:38.65
on what today we
call Great Britain.
00:47:38.69\00:47:40.39
>>Dr. Trim:
Absolutely. Uh, initially,
00:47:40.42\00:47:42.49
traveling from
northern Ireland across the,
00:47:42.52\00:47:45.06
the narrow but very
dangerous straits between
00:47:45.09\00:47:47.40
Ireland and Scotland,
00:47:47.46\00:47:48.70
uh, they set up a
monastery on the Island of Iona.
00:47:48.73\00:47:51.97
Difficult, remote, uh, a good
place for a monastery, actually,
00:47:52.00\00:47:55.07
because monks want to, uh,
00:47:55.10\00:47:56.77
shut themselves
away from the world
00:47:56.81\00:47:58.87
so they can concentrate on God.
00:47:58.91\00:48:01.01
But not a good
place for missionaries.
00:48:01.04\00:48:02.71
But it, it becomes a
springboard for missionaries.
00:48:02.74\00:48:06.28
Uh, and so Aidan
becomes the first,
00:48:06.31\00:48:08.85
travels down into what is
now called Northumberland;
00:48:08.88\00:48:12.05
it's part of England but
then was an independent kingdom.
00:48:12.09\00:48:14.49
Uh, its king had just been
killed in battle with the Welsh.
00:48:14.52\00:48:19.29
Now, that's interesting,
because the Welsh themselves
00:48:19.33\00:48:21.16
were supposed to be Christians.
00:48:21.20\00:48:22.66
Uh, but so, a
kingdom that's in crisis.
00:48:22.70\00:48:25.80
Political crisis often becomes
an opportunity for the gospel.
00:48:25.83\00:48:29.34
And so Aidan
converts a man called Oswald,
00:48:29.37\00:48:33.44
who becomes king
of Northumberland,
00:48:33.48\00:48:35.54
and he defeats the Welsh,
00:48:35.58\00:48:37.55
um, at a place, we
don't know where it is,
00:48:37.58\00:48:40.22
the modern location isn't known,
but he called it Heavensfield,
00:48:40.25\00:48:44.12
because he prayed.
00:48:44.15\00:48:45.19
And he believed that God
had given him the victory.
00:48:45.22\00:48:48.19
And so he
establishes Christianity
00:48:48.22\00:48:51.29
there in Northumberland.
00:48:51.33\00:48:53.06
Now, Columba follows.
00:48:53.09\00:48:54.86
Uh, Columba has a, a much
greater influence, actually.
00:48:54.93\00:48:58.07
But Aidan is the first and
needs to be remembered for that.
00:48:58.10\00:49:00.60
Also also, Aidan,
from all we can tell,
00:49:00.64\00:49:03.27
was an extremely
humble, godly man.
00:49:03.30\00:49:06.47
So Aidan had a huge
impact because of his,
00:49:06.51\00:49:09.31
his saintliness.
00:49:09.34\00:49:10.51
Not saint in maybe the classic
sense of a, an Augustine,
00:49:10.55\00:49:14.25
somebody who's a theologian,
uh, and a major church figure.
00:49:14.28\00:49:17.65
But a, somebody who embodies
Christ to those around him.
00:49:17.69\00:49:21.86
And Aiden did that.
00:49:21.89\00:49:23.32
Columba comes later, and there
are other missionaries as well.
00:49:23.36\00:49:25.96
Ireland be, starts
to send missionaries,
00:49:25.99\00:49:27.96
because the, the Saxon
kings of Northumberland,
00:49:28.00\00:49:30.70
everyone to the
south of them, is pagan.
00:49:30.73\00:49:33.13
So where can I get
other missionaries?
00:49:33.17\00:49:35.54
Where can I get people to
teach my people about Christ?
00:49:35.57\00:49:39.51
You have to get
them from Ireland.
00:49:39.54\00:49:41.54
And so a wave of
Irish missionaries come back
00:49:41.58\00:49:45.88
to northern England,
00:49:45.91\00:49:47.02
which is where Patrick had
gone from centuries before,
00:49:47.05\00:49:50.19
and reconvert the inhabitants.
00:49:50.22\00:49:52.95
Uh, and because they're
brought in by the kings,
00:49:52.99\00:49:55.79
that's important,
00:49:55.82\00:49:56.86
because they have a
huge impact on the culture.
00:49:56.89\00:50:00.10
Uh, they teach the elite;
00:50:00.13\00:50:01.86
they teach them to read,
they teach them to write.
00:50:01.90\00:50:04.57
Which means they
can read the Bible.
00:50:04.60\00:50:06.80
And that's what the Irish
missionaries teach them to do.
00:50:06.84\00:50:09.00
>>John: Meaning that Patrick
has an enormous influence on,
00:50:09.04\00:50:12.87
on that entire region.
00:50:12.91\00:50:14.28
>>Dr. Trim: Indeed.
00:50:14.31\00:50:15.41
And though Patrick today is
the patron saint of Ireland,
00:50:15.44\00:50:17.85
really Patrick's influence
is still felt back in England,
00:50:17.88\00:50:21.45
though it's sort of
secondhand because of the,
00:50:21.48\00:50:24.39
the missionaries who he inspired
some hundred years later.
00:50:24.42\00:50:28.16
But they go back and reconvert.
00:50:28.19\00:50:30.16
And so the north of England
is actually massively influenced
00:50:30.19\00:50:33.63
by Irish
Christianity and Irish culture.
00:50:33.66\00:50:36.77
And today you can still go and
visit churches that have, uh,
00:50:36.80\00:50:42.17
the relics of St.
Columba and St. Columbanus
00:50:42.20\00:50:45.57
and other, uh,
significant Celtic missionaries.
00:50:45.61\00:50:48.68
They are still remembered; they
are still honored in churches,
00:50:48.71\00:50:52.01
including Dorham
Cathedral, for example.
00:50:52.05\00:50:54.02
Uh, so their impact, it,
it still lives on even today,
00:50:54.05\00:50:58.02
though in a more limited way.
00:50:58.05\00:50:59.85
>>John: Even though we're
talking about the Reformation,
00:50:59.89\00:51:01.72
Patrick was around a lot
time before the Reformation,
00:51:01.76\00:51:04.29
but his impact
filtered its way down,
00:51:04.33\00:51:07.96
uh, through
culture and religion.
00:51:08.00\00:51:09.86
Now, bring me down to
the time of the Reformation,
00:51:09.90\00:51:13.07
closer to the 16th century.
00:51:13.10\00:51:15.07
What were some of the
forces in play that made
00:51:15.10\00:51:16.91
the Reformation inevitable?
00:51:16.94\00:51:19.24
>>Dr. Trim: The
church had become corrupt.
00:51:19.27\00:51:21.91
We often thing it say, you know,
00:51:21.94\00:51:23.24
people will sometimes
say the Roman Catholic Church
00:51:23.28\00:51:25.01
was always of a certain stamp.
00:51:25.05\00:51:26.92
And it wasn't.
00:51:26.95\00:51:28.02
It evolved and developed.
00:51:28.05\00:51:31.75
Uh, by the late 15th century,
00:51:31.79\00:51:33.69
there is no
question that the church
00:51:33.72\00:51:35.36
become corrupt
and full of abuses.
00:51:35.39\00:51:38.73
If you, uh, are
an Italian nobleman,
00:51:38.76\00:51:41.73
you have a good
chance of becoming a cardinal
00:51:41.76\00:51:43.40
and being elected pope.
00:51:43.43\00:51:44.37
Uh, the election of
the pope is not so much,
00:51:44.40\00:51:48.07
uh, to do with finding
the most spiritual or even
00:51:48.10\00:51:50.91
theologically insightful person;
00:51:50.94\00:51:53.04
it's caught up
in Italian politics.
00:51:53.07\00:51:55.11
Uh, the popes
themselves go to war.
00:51:55.14\00:51:58.58
And, in fact, the papacy,
00:51:58.61\00:51:59.85
because it has a
secular territory
00:51:59.88\00:52:02.08
that rules in the
middle of what today is Italy,
00:52:02.12\00:52:04.59
the papacy is one of the
important secular states.
00:52:04.62\00:52:07.16
Uh, but that means
that the pope's own energies
00:52:07.19\00:52:10.33
are drawn not toward the
church but towards geopolitics.
00:52:10.36\00:52:13.56
It's a sad state of affairs.
00:52:13.60\00:52:15.06
And finally, even the priests,
00:52:15.10\00:52:16.63
you know, part of the
reason for saying that
00:52:16.67\00:52:18.13
only the priests can
celebrate the Eucharist,
00:52:18.17\00:52:20.44
only the priests
can read the scripture,
00:52:20.47\00:52:22.37
and only the
priest can shape his
00:52:22.40\00:52:24.14
parishioners spiritual lives,
00:52:24.17\00:52:26.11
is that the priest is
supposed to be educated.
00:52:26.14\00:52:29.01
But we know from many sources
that by the late 15th century,
00:52:29.04\00:52:32.68
uh, the great
majority of priests,
00:52:32.71\00:52:36.02
uh, are not at
all well educated.
00:52:36.05\00:52:37.55
Some of them
can't read the Bible,
00:52:37.59\00:52:38.92
and some of them can't
read even to learn the catechism
00:52:38.95\00:52:41.72
that they're supposed to
be teaching ordinary people.
00:52:41.76\00:52:43.99
>>John: And people
saw wat was going on?
00:52:44.03\00:52:45.79
>>Dr. Trim: Absolutely, John.
00:52:45.83\00:52:47.60
Uh, it's not only
Luther, and indeed,
00:52:47.60\00:52:49.46
Luther's not the first.
00:52:49.50\00:52:50.53
People identify this.
00:52:50.57\00:52:52.27
Uh, especially, uh,
00:52:52.30\00:52:54.47
people who are
scholars, uh, academics,
00:52:54.50\00:52:57.74
literary people, they're writing
satires about the immoral lives
00:52:57.77\00:53:02.31
of the popes and cardinals.
00:53:02.34\00:53:03.81
Uh, one of the most
famous is Erasmus of Rotterdam,
00:53:03.85\00:53:07.38
a Dutch humanist who's extremely
important for the Reformation
00:53:07.42\00:53:10.69
because he
produces an authoritative
00:53:10.72\00:53:13.09
Greek New Testament.
00:53:13.12\00:53:15.19
Um, and Erasmus also
writes movingly that he,
00:53:15.22\00:53:18.23
you know, he would
wish that every plowboy
00:53:18.26\00:53:21.46
could be holding a copy
of the scripture in his hand,
00:53:21.50\00:53:24.30
in his own language,
and be reading the Bible
00:53:24.33\00:53:26.87
as he drives the ox that plows
the furrow to plant his crops.
00:53:26.90\00:53:30.94
Um, and that
sounds very Protestant.
00:53:33.38\00:53:34.78
But actually, Erasmus
never becomes a Protestant.
00:53:34.81\00:53:38.45
He remains in the
Roman Catholic Church.
00:53:38.48\00:53:41.65
So, which highlights the fact
that, yes, people see abuses.
00:53:41.68\00:53:44.82
But not everybody is willing
00:53:44.85\00:53:48.12
to bring on the
sort of confrontation
00:53:48.16\00:53:49.92
that Luther brings on,
because it's very dangerous.
00:53:49.96\00:53:52.13
But also not everyone is
willing to break the church.
00:53:52.16\00:53:56.60
There are others who
feel, no matter what the abuses,
00:53:56.63\00:53:59.53
we have to stay with the church
00:53:59.57\00:54:00.90
and work to
reform it from inside.
00:54:00.94\00:54:03.41
Whereas Luther, uh, is
willing to say truth is truth,
00:54:03.44\00:54:09.61
and my conscience
will take me where it must.
00:54:09.64\00:54:13.31
Famously, of course,
00:54:13.35\00:54:14.22
he says to the
Diet of Worms in 1521,
00:54:14.25\00:54:16.42
“My conscience is
captive to the Word of God.”
00:54:16.45\00:54:19.99
But people are doing
this because they can see,
00:54:20.02\00:54:22.42
they can see the corruption.
00:54:22.46\00:54:24.56
Now,
eventually, within 50 years,
00:54:24.59\00:54:26.70
the Catholic church
does initiate its own reform,
00:54:26.73\00:54:29.33
what's often called
the Counter-Reformation.
00:54:29.36\00:54:30.90
And they eliminate a
number of these abuses
00:54:30.93\00:54:33.80
that are organizational.
00:54:33.84\00:54:35.60
But they don't
address the theological issues
00:54:35.64\00:54:37.81
that Luther had addressed.
00:54:37.84\00:54:39.37
And we do have to
separate those, I think, John.
00:54:39.41\00:54:41.24
The social and organizational
corruption is why leaders,
00:54:41.28\00:54:47.58
princes, city councils were
willing to support reformers,
00:54:47.62\00:54:51.89
but the theological
points are also profound,
00:54:51.92\00:54:56.42
and if it had just
been a social message,
00:54:56.46\00:54:58.99
Protestantism would never
have caught on like wildfire
00:54:59.03\00:55:02.56
as it did.
00:55:02.60\00:55:03.63
It caught on like
wildfire because it addressed
00:55:03.67\00:55:05.83
a deeply felt spiritual need.
00:55:05.87\00:55:08.77
>>John: One last question.
00:55:08.80\00:55:10.97
The current pope, Pope
Francis, much loved, well liked.
00:55:11.01\00:55:14.78
I read where, where one
person said even atheists
00:55:14.81\00:55:19.35
should pray for
this pope, and so forth.
00:55:19.38\00:55:22.38
In the book he wrote called
“The History of the Jesuits,”
00:55:22.42\00:55:24.35
he said that
Protestantism is the root
00:55:24.39\00:55:27.82
of all of the evils
in the western world.
00:55:27.86\00:55:32.09
Should we be
concerned about that?
00:55:32.13\00:55:34.00
>>Dr. Trim: [sighs] There's
no question that the post,
00:55:37.07\00:55:38.37
but that Pope Francis,
uh, probably seems the most,
00:55:38.40\00:55:41.04
uh, attractive and, indeed,
00:55:41.07\00:55:43.44
the cuddliest figure
in world Christianity.
00:55:43.47\00:55:45.47
>>John: Sure.
00:55:45.51\00:55:46.41
>>Dr. Trim: Uh, and
[sighs] I would hope,
00:55:46.44\00:55:50.31
actually, that we
would all pray for him,
00:55:50.35\00:55:51.91
as indeed for all
members of other churches.
00:55:51.95\00:55:55.12
Uh, but we do need to be clear.
00:55:55.15\00:55:58.19
There was a reason why
Protestants separated from
00:55:58.22\00:56:01.06
Catholics in the first place.
00:56:01.09\00:56:02.62
Some of it was
down to misunderstanding
00:56:02.66\00:56:04.93
and mutual
recriminations that set in
00:56:04.96\00:56:06.63
when one side
gets against the other.
00:56:06.66\00:56:07.96
But there were also
genuine significant differences.
00:56:07.96\00:56:12.17
And what modern Lutherans
and Catholics have done,
00:56:12.20\00:56:19.77
in the laudable desire
of reuniting Christianity,
00:56:19.81\00:56:22.51
which I'm sure is what God
would desire in an ideal world,
00:56:22.54\00:56:27.15
what they have done is to
very carefully parse terms,
00:56:27.18\00:56:31.19
um, very careful language.
00:56:31.22\00:56:34.79
But at times it probably
is a matter of semantics.
00:56:34.82\00:56:37.69
And if you still look
at what the Roman Catholic
00:56:37.73\00:56:42.80
Church teaches, the
canons of the Council of Trent
00:56:42.83\00:56:46.77
have never been revoked.
00:56:46.80\00:56:49.37
The truth is, Protestantism
still teaches that salvation
00:56:49.40\00:56:53.34
comes only from
Christ, and the Catholic church
00:56:53.38\00:56:58.85
still teaches that we
are supposed to make some
00:56:58.88\00:57:01.42
contribution to that.
00:57:01.45\00:57:03.72
And Protestants also still teach
the supremacy of the Bible,
00:57:03.75\00:57:11.23
from which many other
things derive and flow.
00:57:11.26\00:57:13.60
>>John: Sure.
00:57:13.63\00:57:14.66
>>Dr. Trim: And the
Catholic church still states,
00:57:14.73\00:57:16.56
no, there is
authoritative tradition.
00:57:16.60\00:57:19.73
It doesn't place it necessarily
above the Bible in theory,
00:57:19.77\00:57:22.67
but it says you have
to interpret the Bible
00:57:22.70\00:57:24.41
through the lens of
authoritative tradition.
00:57:24.44\00:57:27.68
Which means the
Bible isn't supreme.
00:57:27.71\00:57:30.35
It doesn't
believe in sola scriptura.
00:57:30.38\00:57:33.08
It believes in the Bible,
00:57:33.11\00:57:34.18
and there are many fine
Catholic biblical scholars.
00:57:34.22\00:57:36.25
But it doesn't
teach sola scriptura.
00:57:36.28\00:57:39.69
And finally, the Catholic
church above all else insists
00:57:39.72\00:57:43.86
that all Christians must
acknowledge the authority
00:57:43.89\00:57:46.09
of the Bishop of Rome.
00:57:46.13\00:57:47.13
Well, you know, I grew up,
00:57:47.13\00:57:50.37
uh, in a family with
some Anglican connections,
00:57:50.40\00:57:54.00
and I think, from my own
historical research to the 1530s
00:57:54.04\00:57:59.07
when England started to, uh,
00:57:59.11\00:58:01.98
go its own path
in terms of religion,
00:58:02.01\00:58:03.91
and a number of
English writers said
00:58:03.95\00:58:06.58
“Why should the Bishop of Rome
have authority over every other
00:58:06.61\00:58:10.02
bishop in every other
church in Christendom?”
00:58:10.05\00:58:12.52
And the question
still stands, John.
00:58:12.55\00:58:15.22
The question still stands,
and there is no good answer.
00:58:15.26\00:58:17.83
So there are major differences,
00:58:17.86\00:58:20.40
and they can't be glossed
over simply because one pope,
00:58:20.43\00:58:23.73
right now, is a
very attractive person.
00:58:23.77\00:58:26.80
>>John: Well
said, Dr. David Trim.
00:58:26.84\00:58:28.57
Thanks so much.
00:58:28.60\00:58:29.24
I appreciate you joining me.
00:58:29.27\00:58:30.47
>>Dr. Trim:
Thanks for having me.
00:58:30.51\00:58:31.84
>>John: And we're glad
that you've joined us as well.
00:58:31.87\00:58:34.04
There's more to come on 500.
00:58:34.08\00:58:35.38
This was program 2.
00:58:35.41\00:58:37.41
Uh, join me next time
for “A Lamp unto My Feet.”
00:58:37.45\00:58:40.48
We'll look at William Tindale,
00:58:40.52\00:58:41.68
the great English reformer,
00:58:41.72\00:58:42.98
and the contribution the
Bible made to the Reformation.
00:58:43.02\00:58:45.95
Before we're done,
let's pray together.
00:58:45.99\00:58:47.59
Let's pray now.
00:58:47.62\00:58:48.26
¤[Music]¤
00:58:48.29\00:58:48.92
Our Father in Heaven,
00:58:48.96\00:58:50.03
we're grateful for Jesus Christ,
00:58:50.06\00:58:52.76
the word made flesh.
00:58:52.79\00:58:54.56
We're so thankful
you've given us your word
00:58:54.56\00:58:56.73
as a lamp to our feet
and a light to our path.
00:58:56.77\00:58:59.37
We're grateful for
those who've gone before us
00:58:59.40\00:59:01.74
and have pointed
us in your direction.
00:59:01.77\00:59:04.17
Bless us now, that
Jesus would be all,
00:59:04.21\00:59:06.41
that we would by your
grace stand on your word,
00:59:06.44\00:59:09.01
and that the Reformation
that you began long ago
00:59:09.04\00:59:11.51
would be completed in our
hearts as we become truly yours.
00:59:11.55\00:59:15.35
We thank you,
00:59:15.38\00:59:16.05
and we pray in Jesus' name,
00:59:16.08\00:59:18.39
Amen.
00:59:18.42\00:59:19.05
¤[Music]¤
00:59:19.09\00:59:19.92
Thanks so much for joining me.
00:59:19.95\00:59:20.96
I look forward to
seeing you again next time.
00:59:20.99\00:59:23.16
Until then, remember:
00:59:23.19\00:59:24.13
It Is Written.
00:59:24.16\00:59:25.63
Man shall not
live by bread alone,
00:59:25.66\00:59:27.23
but by every word that
proceeds from the mouth of God.
00:59:27.30\00:59:30.50
¤[Theme music]¤
00:59:30.53\00:59:45.55