¤[Theme Music]
00:01:30.05\00:01:40.10
¤[Theme Music]
00:01:40.10\00:01:47.30
>>John Bradshaw: This is It
Is Written. I'm John Bradshaw.
00:01:49.27\00:01:51.81
Thanks for joining me for 500,
our series on the Reformation.
00:01:51.84\00:01:56.41
Today: "A Wall of Separation."
00:01:56.44\00:02:00.45
And my guest is Pastor Lincoln
Steed from Liberty Magazine,
00:02:00.48\00:02:03.95
a magazine dedicated to the
separation of church and state
00:02:03.99\00:02:07.12
and to advancing the
concept of religious liberty.
00:02:07.16\00:02:10.06
Lincoln, thanks for joining me.
00:02:10.09\00:02:11.03
>>Lincoln Steed:
Great to be with you.
00:02:11.06\00:02:12.09
>>John: You think most
people recognize just how
00:02:12.13\00:02:13.93
important religious liberty is?
00:02:13.96\00:02:15.60
>>Lincoln: No, I don't think so,
00:02:15.63\00:02:16.90
although it's like apple pie.
00:02:16.93\00:02:18.73
Nobody is against
religious liberty, nowhere,
00:02:18.77\00:02:21.54
but the way they
define it varies greatly.
00:02:21.57\00:02:25.07
And that's the problem.
00:02:25.11\00:02:25.97
The true concept
of religious liberty
00:02:26.01\00:02:28.38
is almost been forgotten,
00:02:28.41\00:02:30.18
even in the United States,
00:02:30.21\00:02:31.45
which to its credit still
very publicly speaks about a
00:02:31.48\00:02:34.68
commitment to religious freedom.
00:02:34.72\00:02:36.99
But even in the
00:02:37.02\00:02:37.89
United States what
it's devolving into
00:02:37.92\00:02:39.29
very quickly is
religious entitlement,
00:02:39.32\00:02:42.09
and that is not
religious liberty.
00:02:42.12\00:02:44.69
>>John: A Wall of Separation,
00:02:44.73\00:02:46.53
most of us take
that for granted today,
00:02:46.56\00:02:48.63
but you don't have to rewind
the calendar too far to get to
00:02:48.66\00:02:51.47
a place where there
was no religious freedom
00:02:51.50\00:02:55.37
and when religion and government
00:02:55.40\00:02:57.14
were
inextricably woven together.
00:02:57.17\00:03:00.91
In this program we'll
understand why that might be
00:03:00.94\00:03:03.38
a bit of a problem,
00:03:03.41\00:03:04.35
or why when you unbind the two,
00:03:04.38\00:03:07.92
humanity has the
opportunity to surge forward
00:03:07.95\00:03:10.82
under the aegis
of the Holy Spirit.
00:03:10.85\00:03:13.86
Our last program dealt
with the Counter Reformation.
00:03:13.89\00:03:17.49
Let me take a
moment to review that.
00:03:17.53\00:03:19.96
We took you to northern Spain,
00:03:20.00\00:03:21.50
to the birthplace
of Ignatius Loyola.
00:03:21.53\00:03:24.10
And then we took
you to the Vatican City.
00:03:24.13\00:03:26.80
That was where Ignatius Loyola
and others petitioned the Pope.
00:03:26.84\00:03:30.44
They said, "The
Reformation is making a big dent
00:03:30.47\00:03:34.14
in God's church.
00:03:34.18\00:03:36.01
Give us the permission we need
to establish an organization
00:03:36.04\00:03:40.38
with a charter that
allows us to do whatever we must
00:03:40.42\00:03:45.42
to win back the ground that the
church has lost over the years."
00:03:45.45\00:03:49.76
The Counter
Reformation unleashed,
00:03:49.79\00:03:51.59
really, a barrage of Catholic
influence as the Roman church
00:03:51.63\00:03:56.60
sought to retake
ground that it had lost.
00:03:56.63\00:03:59.83
One of the things you heard
when I spoke with Dr. Damsteegt
00:03:59.87\00:04:02.57
that was significant
was that theologically
00:04:02.60\00:04:06.01
the church reasserted itself.
00:04:06.04\00:04:08.14
The position of the
Reformers when it came
00:04:08.18\00:04:10.15
to the Bible prophecies was
that the Roman Catholic Papacy
00:04:10.18\00:04:15.42
was implicated in
Daniel chapter seven
00:04:15.45\00:04:17.72
and Revelation chapter 13.
00:04:17.75\00:04:19.92
Many of the Reformers
were bold enough to claim
00:04:19.95\00:04:22.92
that the Vatican was Antichrist.
00:04:22.96\00:04:26.53
Of course, for
Rome this was shocking.
00:04:26.56\00:04:29.90
That was not news
that they wanted broadcast,
00:04:29.93\00:04:32.30
but now that
that was made known,
00:04:32.33\00:04:35.24
now that there was a
case made in the Bible
00:04:35.27\00:04:39.07
that the church of Rome
was implicated in a negative
00:04:39.11\00:04:41.71
way in the last days
of this earth's history,
00:04:41.74\00:04:44.21
Rome decided
something had to be done.
00:04:44.25\00:04:46.82
No, they didn't reverse
any theological positions,
00:04:46.85\00:04:49.15
and they could
not rewrite history,
00:04:49.18\00:04:50.52
but a couple of Jesuits as
it happened were commissioned
00:04:50.55\00:04:54.09
to reinterpret those
prophesies of the Bible.
00:04:54.12\00:04:58.16
One version of the
newly explained prophesies
00:04:58.19\00:05:02.13
posited that everything
to do with Antichrist had
00:05:02.16\00:05:06.30
been fulfilled in the past,
00:05:06.33\00:05:08.14
previously, which is where
we get the school of prophetic
00:05:08.17\00:05:11.81
interpretation known as
preterism, or pre-terism.
00:05:11.84\00:05:16.61
Another scholar
invented a system of
00:05:16.64\00:05:20.88
prophetic interpretation that
placed all of the last end time
00:05:20.92\00:05:24.65
events in the very end of time.
00:05:24.69\00:05:27.66
Keep in mind,
00:05:27.69\00:05:28.92
the Reformers were
largely historicists in their
00:05:28.96\00:05:32.59
interpretation of the
Bible and Bible prophecy.
00:05:32.63\00:05:34.56
They looked at prophecy,
00:05:34.56\00:05:35.40
they looked at
the book of Revelation
00:05:35.43\00:05:36.63
and they said some of that
has been fulfilled in the past,
00:05:36.67\00:05:39.87
some of it is fufilling now,
00:05:39.90\00:05:41.77
and there will be some
that's fulfilled in the future.
00:05:41.80\00:05:44.91
Not so.
00:05:44.94\00:05:45.57
Ribera, the Jesuit scholar,
00:05:45.61\00:05:47.51
he said it's all going to take
place down in the end of time.
00:05:47.54\00:05:51.75
So if it wasn't
fulfilled historically,
00:05:51.78\00:05:54.18
then it certainly couldn't
apply to the church of Rome.
00:05:54.22\00:05:58.45
Was the Counter
Reformation a success?
00:05:58.49\00:06:01.42
By many measures
you'd have to say yes,
00:06:01.46\00:06:03.16
but you'd have to be
the final determiner as to
00:06:03.19\00:06:06.43
whether or not
that was actually so.
00:06:06.46\00:06:09.23
Well, as we look at
A Wall of Separation,
00:06:09.26\00:06:13.77
this program takes us to
the New World from the Old.
00:06:13.80\00:06:17.87
We travel from
Italy to New England.
00:06:17.91\00:06:20.71
We find ourselves in
Providence, Rhode Island
00:06:20.74\00:06:23.81
and Boston, Massachusets,
and we go to the site
00:06:23.85\00:06:27.22
that has said to be the landing
of the original Americans,
00:06:27.25\00:06:32.29
the pilgrim fathers,
00:06:32.32\00:06:33.72
who landed at what is
said to be Plymouth Rock.
00:06:33.76\00:06:36.36
Well, as we find out it almost
undoubtedly wasn't exactly
00:06:36.39\00:06:39.39
Plymouth Rock where they landed,
00:06:39.43\00:06:40.73
but nevertheless
it's a great story.
00:06:40.76\00:06:43.00
And we go to Plymouth
Rock and you might be surprised
00:06:43.03\00:06:44.87
as I was first time I
went there that Plymouth Rock
00:06:44.90\00:06:47.44
isn't Ayers rock
like in Australia.
00:06:47.47\00:06:50.14
It's not the Rock of Gibraltar.
00:06:50.17\00:06:53.34
It's kind of a
small rock, unimpressive,
00:06:53.38\00:06:55.48
but nevertheless it
stands as an icon and a symbol.
00:06:55.51\00:07:00.28
And it speaks to us
today about new beginnings
00:07:00.32\00:07:02.48
and about the
birth of a new nation.
00:07:02.52\00:07:05.22
It also, if you listen,
00:07:05.25\00:07:06.49
will speak to you
about religious freedom.
00:07:06.52\00:07:09.72
Maybe religious freedom isn't
the most glamorous of subjects
00:07:09.76\00:07:12.73
to be talking about, but
here's what's fascinating.
00:07:12.76\00:07:15.46
When you go back to
the time of Martin Luther,
00:07:15.50\00:07:20.94
just 103 years before
the landing at Plymouth Rock,
00:07:20.97\00:07:26.41
Luther nailed his 95 theses
to the door of the Castle Church
00:07:26.44\00:07:30.21
in Wittenberg, just
100 years, a century,
00:07:30.25\00:07:32.45
103 years to be exact.
00:07:32.48\00:07:35.45
Martin Luther had no
concept of religious freedom.
00:07:35.48\00:07:40.36
You know that Luther
initially had no burden
00:07:40.39\00:07:42.92
to separate from his church.
00:07:42.96\00:07:45.23
To question the
authority of the church,
00:07:45.26\00:07:47.50
well that was
out of the question.
00:07:47.56\00:07:50.17
To speak back against a Pope,
00:07:50.20\00:07:53.13
somebody who has a
divine right to do what he does
00:07:53.17\00:07:56.20
and to say what he says,
00:07:56.24\00:07:58.34
who would even dare to do that?
00:07:58.37\00:08:00.28
So Martin Luther wasn't
as far along the continuum
00:08:00.31\00:08:03.81
as was Roger Williams.
00:08:03.85\00:08:06.15
Martin Luther
agitated theologically.
00:08:06.18\00:08:09.05
Martin Luther championed the
00:08:09.08\00:08:12.09
doctrine of
justification by faith.
00:08:12.12\00:08:13.86
Martin Luther spoke against the
church dispensing grace out of
00:08:13.89\00:08:18.93
its treasury, against purgatory,
00:08:18.96\00:08:21.86
that place where one is
purged from her or his sins
00:08:21.90\00:08:25.40
in preparation for heaven.
00:08:25.43\00:08:26.80
He spoke against purgatory.
00:08:26.84\00:08:29.10
He spoke against indulgences,
and so many other things,
00:08:29.14\00:08:32.61
but Luther didn't talk
about religious freedom.
00:08:32.64\00:08:36.58
Roger Williams did, and it
was important to Roger Williams.
00:08:36.61\00:08:41.08
Stop and think
about where we'd be today
00:08:41.12\00:08:44.62
without religious freedom.
00:08:44.65\00:08:46.35
I wonder if you'd,
just give that some thought.
00:08:46.39\00:08:48.56
The United States
where It Is Written is based
00:08:48.59\00:08:53.90
is said to be the land of the
free and the home of the brave.
00:08:53.93\00:08:58.37
Those are the words
inside the national anthem
00:08:58.40\00:09:01.67
of the United States of America,
00:09:01.70\00:09:03.00
the Star Spangled Banner.
00:09:03.04\00:09:06.11
It wouldn't be either, we
couldn't say the United States
00:09:06.14\00:09:08.64
was either
without religious freedom.
00:09:08.68\00:09:11.35
Very, very significant.
00:09:11.38\00:09:14.15
Imagine how you would feel if
you were told what to believe,
00:09:14.18\00:09:18.69
if you were told
how you could worship,
00:09:18.72\00:09:21.62
if you were told
what you could study,
00:09:21.66\00:09:24.69
if you were prohibited
from freely sharing your faith
00:09:24.73\00:09:28.56
with somebody else.
00:09:28.60\00:09:30.53
You couldn't challenge
the way things were done
00:09:30.57\00:09:32.63
at your local church and
you couldn't even freely decide
00:09:32.67\00:09:35.64
to stay away from church.
00:09:35.67\00:09:38.14
You had to do what
you were told to do,
00:09:38.17\00:09:41.74
and if you didn't,
severe was the punishment.
00:09:41.78\00:09:47.25
Can you imagine
that in the 21st Century?
00:09:47.28\00:09:49.05
You know what's
so very interesting?
00:09:49.08\00:09:51.32
As you look at the
book of Revelation,
00:09:51.35\00:09:53.99
and you look at the overarching
sweep of Bible prophecy,
00:09:54.02\00:09:58.23
as you look at that great
battle between good and evil
00:09:58.26\00:10:01.53
that's been
raging for millennia,
00:10:01.56\00:10:04.40
you have to come face to face
with the inescapable conclusion
00:10:04.43\00:10:08.24
that in the end of
time religious liberty
00:10:08.27\00:10:10.07
will again be denied.
00:10:10.11\00:10:12.54
The reason I say that is because
in the book of Revelation
00:10:12.57\00:10:14.81
it says "he causes",
or forces, or coerces,
00:10:14.84\00:10:20.02
"he causes all to receive
a mark in their right hand.
00:10:20.05\00:10:24.29
He causes all to
worship the beast."
00:10:24.32\00:10:27.79
We're not getting into
defining that right now,
00:10:27.82\00:10:30.96
but we can see that
in the closing moments
00:10:30.99\00:10:32.63
of earth's history,
00:10:32.66\00:10:33.90
religious liberty disappears and
coercion becomes the norm again.
00:10:33.93\00:10:40.47
So these are significant
times in which we live.
00:10:40.50\00:10:42.97
Look out on this program,
00:10:43.00\00:10:44.07
we'll take you to a
beautiful site in Providence,
00:10:44.11\00:10:46.21
Rhode Island, an enormous
statue of Roger Williams.
00:10:46.24\00:10:49.88
He's still considered to
be an enormously important
00:10:49.91\00:10:52.11
figure in New England,
00:10:52.15\00:10:53.58
particularly in Rhode Island,
a colony that he created.
00:10:53.62\00:10:56.79
The statue is there.
00:10:56.82\00:10:58.62
He's not a forgotten son.
00:10:58.65\00:11:00.22
Plymouth Rock still exists.
00:11:00.26\00:11:02.99
Hundreds of thousands of
tourists visit it every year.
00:11:03.02\00:11:06.80
That still exists and
it's still remembered.
00:11:06.83\00:11:10.40
But go beyond the surface, and
are the issues still remembered?
00:11:10.43\00:11:15.07
This country was
settled by people
00:11:15.10\00:11:16.67
who were seeking
for religious freedom,
00:11:16.71\00:11:18.74
and God wanted that to be so.
00:11:18.77\00:11:20.91
Religious freedom.
00:11:20.94\00:11:23.75
This country was settled by
people who were seeking a church
00:11:23.78\00:11:27.68
without a Pope and a
state without a king.
00:11:27.72\00:11:32.19
The original inhabitants of this
place were looking for that.
00:11:32.22\00:11:35.12
Now fast forward
several hundred years,
00:11:35.16\00:11:38.43
and what are we
looking for today?
00:11:38.46\00:11:39.79
Are we remembering the issues?
00:11:39.83\00:11:41.73
Do we remember what
Roger Williams stood for?
00:11:41.76\00:11:43.73
Do we understand
what religious freedom is?
00:11:43.77\00:11:47.54
As Pastor Steed will tell
us in a few minutes from now,
00:11:47.57\00:11:50.87
religious freedom doesn't
simply mean I get what I want.
00:11:50.91\00:11:54.48
Religious freedom means
religious freedom for all.
00:11:54.51\00:11:57.98
A Wall of Separation.
00:11:58.01\00:11:58.91
You'll be blessed tonight.
00:11:58.95\00:12:00.08
I'll be back with
more in just a moment.
00:12:00.12\00:12:02.62
¤[Theme Music]
00:12:02.65\00:12:08.76
How can you enjoy a
successful Christian experience?
00:12:10.39\00:12:14.40
How can you know
victory instead of defeat?
00:12:14.46\00:12:17.83
How can you live with
honor and integrity before God?
00:12:17.87\00:12:21.67
Well you can, and our
free offer today tells you how.
00:12:21.70\00:12:25.07
To receive "The War Is Over,"
00:12:25.11\00:12:26.71
call us on 800-253-3000,
00:12:26.74\00:12:29.81
or visit us online
at itiswritten.com,
00:12:29.84\00:12:33.31
or you can write to
the address on your screen.
00:12:33.35\00:12:35.42
I'd like you to
receive our free offer:
00:12:35.45\00:12:37.69
"The War Is Over."
00:12:37.72\00:12:39.89
>>Announcer: Planning
for your financial future
00:12:42.82\00:12:44.29
is a vital aspect of
Christian stewardship.
00:12:44.33\00:12:48.16
For this reason, It Is
Written is pleased to offer
00:12:48.20\00:12:50.93
free Planned Giving
and Estate Services.
00:12:50.97\00:12:53.80
For information on
how we can help you,
00:12:53.84\00:12:56.00
please call 800-992-2219.
00:12:56.04\00:13:01.08
Call today or visit our website:
00:13:01.11\00:13:03.28
HisLegacy.com.
00:13:03.31\00:13:05.55
Call 800-992-2219.
00:13:05.58\00:13:09.75
>>John: This is It Is
Written. I'm John Bradshaw.
00:13:11.82\00:13:14.82
Thanks for joining me.
00:13:14.86\00:13:16.29
1620, one of the
most significant dates
00:13:16.32\00:13:20.23
in the history of
the United States,
00:13:20.26\00:13:22.60
and it wouldn't
be a stretch to say
00:13:22.63\00:13:24.43
in the history of the world.
00:13:24.47\00:13:26.50
Martin Luther had nailed
the 95 Theses to the door
00:13:34.58\00:13:37.98
of the Castle Church in
Wittenberg 103 years earlier.
00:13:38.01\00:13:42.92
By 1620, Luther had been
dead for more than 70 years,
00:13:42.95\00:13:47.72
John Calvin for nearly 60,
00:13:47.76\00:13:49.86
Ulrich Zwingli had
died almost 90 years before,
00:13:49.89\00:13:53.76
Theodore Beza, the disciple
of Calvin whose likeness
00:13:53.80\00:13:56.60
is on the
Reformation Wall in Geneva,
00:13:56.63\00:13:59.57
John Knox who
stands to his left,
00:13:59.60\00:14:02.17
the Englishmen William Tyndale,
00:14:02.20\00:14:03.81
Thomas Cranmer,
00:14:03.84\00:14:04.77
Nicholas Ridley
and Hugh Latimer,
00:14:04.81\00:14:06.37
they'd all been
gone for decades.
00:14:06.41\00:14:08.94
In fact, by the
time you get to 1620,
00:14:08.98\00:14:12.38
the recognizable
names of the Reformation
00:14:12.41\00:14:14.58
had all moved off the scene.
00:14:14.62\00:14:17.29
It could be said that
the Reformation ended around
00:14:17.32\00:14:20.42
that time with many
scholars saying that it came
00:14:20.46\00:14:23.32
to the end with the
Peace of Westphalia in 1648,
00:14:23.36\00:14:27.76
a number of treaties that ended
the religious wars in Europe.
00:14:27.83\00:14:32.83
So at about the time
the Reformation ended
00:14:32.87\00:14:35.10
one of the most significant
developments in the proclamation
00:14:35.14\00:14:37.91
of God's word
was getting underway.
00:14:37.94\00:14:40.51
You could see God's
fingerprints all over it.
00:14:40.54\00:14:43.28
If you've never seen
it before, Plymouth Rock,
00:14:54.89\00:14:57.56
45 minutes south of Boston
in Plymouth, Massachusetts
00:14:57.59\00:15:01.56
comes as a bit of a surprise.
00:15:01.60\00:15:04.33
The legend is that Plymouth
Rock is where the pilgrims
00:15:04.37\00:15:06.77
got off the Mayflower when they
arrived on these shores in 1620.
00:15:06.80\00:15:11.94
The fact is, this
is only a fragment
00:15:11.97\00:15:14.64
of the original Plymouth Rock.
00:15:14.68\00:15:16.91
The original broke in
half in 1774 and souvenir
00:15:16.95\00:15:21.38
hunters chipped away at
the rock over the years,
00:15:21.42\00:15:23.39
so there's much less of
it today than there once was.
00:15:23.42\00:15:27.12
I know you don't
always want the facts
00:15:27.16\00:15:28.56
to get in the
way of a good story,
00:15:28.59\00:15:30.56
but another fact is that no
one ever claimed the pilgrims
00:15:30.59\00:15:33.96
landed at
Plymouth Rock until 1741,
00:15:34.00\00:15:38.27
121 years after the Mayflower
arrived in Plymouth Harbor.
00:15:38.30\00:15:42.50
But all that's
incidental really.
00:15:44.87\00:15:46.91
The rock itself is
not what's important.
00:15:46.94\00:15:49.64
Today it's a symbol, a
symbol of new beginnings
00:15:49.68\00:15:53.15
and the pioneer spirit.
00:15:53.18\00:15:54.72
It's an icon visited by more
than a million people a year.
00:15:54.75\00:15:59.92
So what were the pilgrims doing
anyway landing at Plymouth Rock,
00:15:59.95\00:16:03.19
or wherever it was they landed?
00:16:03.22\00:16:06.23
Understand that
and you'll understand
00:16:06.26\00:16:08.30
the birth of a great nation.
00:16:08.33\00:16:10.37
You'll see how the guiding hand
of God shepherded his people
00:16:10.40\00:16:14.70
and fostered the
growth of the principles
00:16:14.74\00:16:17.11
of the Protestant Reformation.
00:16:17.14\00:16:19.17
So let's back up a few years.
00:16:19.21\00:16:23.31
The pilgrims on board
the Mayflower were Puritans,
00:16:23.35\00:16:27.15
English Protestants
who were committed to
00:16:27.18\00:16:29.38
purifying the Church of
England of Catholic practices.
00:16:29.42\00:16:33.56
The seeds for the English
Reformation were sown by Patrick
00:16:33.59\00:16:36.86
and Columba and
Aidan and others like them.
00:16:36.89\00:16:39.73
Centuries later, John
Wycliffe was described as
00:16:39.76\00:16:43.06
"the morning star
of the Reformation."
00:16:43.10\00:16:45.73
And then there
was William Tyndale
00:16:45.77\00:16:47.24
who heroically stood up against
00:16:47.27\00:16:48.87
King Henry VIII and translated
the Bible into English
00:16:48.90\00:16:52.24
at a time when
such a translation
00:16:52.27\00:16:53.84
was desperately needed.
00:16:53.88\00:16:55.84
With his dying breath,
00:16:55.88\00:16:57.08
Tyndale prayed that God would
open the eyes of Henry VIII,
00:16:57.11\00:17:00.85
which God did only two
years later when the king
00:17:00.88\00:17:04.22
gave his permission for
four different translations
00:17:04.25\00:17:06.86
of the Bible into
the English language.
00:17:06.89\00:17:09.46
It was Tyndale's scholarship
that provided the lion's share
00:17:09.49\00:17:12.49
of the King James
Version of the Bible.
00:17:12.53\00:17:14.50
But even though
the church in England,
00:17:31.18\00:17:32.48
or the Church of England,
00:17:32.51\00:17:33.88
had separated from Rome, it
was in desperate need of reform.
00:17:33.92\00:17:37.89
Now while it's true that
England's King Henry VIII
00:17:37.92\00:17:41.29
was strongly
motivated to separate
00:17:41.32\00:17:43.19
from the Roman Catholic Church
because it would not annul
00:17:43.22\00:17:46.16
his marriage to Catherine
of Aragon in the 1530's,
00:17:46.19\00:17:49.83
England's antipathy towards
Rome ran much deeper than that.
00:17:49.86\00:17:53.23
There were significant doctrinal
issues that separated the two,
00:17:53.27\00:17:57.04
but the Puritans
wanted even more than that.
00:17:57.07\00:18:00.18
Even though the Church
of England was structurally
00:18:03.98\00:18:06.15
independent from Rome, that
wasn't enough for the Puritans.
00:18:06.18\00:18:10.39
They believed that when it came
to matters of Christian faith
00:18:10.42\00:18:13.56
and Christian worship,
00:18:13.59\00:18:15.26
that to depart
from what the Bible said
00:18:15.29\00:18:16.83
was both unnecessary and unwise.
00:18:16.86\00:18:19.73
They wanted to follow
the example of the Lutherans
00:18:19.76\00:18:22.90
or the Reformed
Protestants elsewhere in Europe
00:18:22.93\00:18:26.20
and return to what they believed
00:18:26.23\00:18:27.80
was a more Biblical
form of Christianity.
00:18:27.84\00:18:30.77
Yet, the Church of England
continued to embrace many
00:18:30.81\00:18:34.38
of the forms of Catholicism.
00:18:34.41\00:18:36.41
The Protestant Movement was
00:18:40.42\00:18:41.55
separated
largely into two wings.
00:18:41.58\00:18:43.65
The Lutheran, Calvinistic wing,
often called Reformed Theology,
00:18:45.95\00:18:49.36
primarily after the teachings of
Martin Luther and John Calvin;
00:18:49.39\00:18:53.63
and the Armenian wing, which was
patterned after the teachings
00:18:53.66\00:18:56.50
of Jacob Arminius
and others who focused
00:18:56.53\00:18:59.33
on the role of Christian free
will in the salvation process,
00:18:59.37\00:19:03.37
along with practical teaching
such as nonparticipation in war
00:19:03.41\00:19:06.47
and separation
of church and state.
00:19:06.51\00:19:08.01
The Puritans of England
clearly took their beliefs
00:19:08.04\00:19:12.28
from the
Lutheran, Calvinistic wing.
00:19:12.31\00:19:14.85
And this would be
demonstrated by their views
00:19:14.88\00:19:16.79
on religious freedom,
00:19:16.82\00:19:18.62
particularly when
they came to the New World.
00:19:18.65\00:19:22.22
The Puritans played a
significant role in the
00:19:22.26\00:19:24.33
political history of England
throughout the 17th Century.
00:19:24.36\00:19:28.00
For a time, the Puritans
ruled the country under the
00:19:28.03\00:19:30.93
leadership of Lord
Protector Oliver Cromwell
00:19:30.97\00:19:33.84
during the 1650's.
00:19:33.87\00:19:40.54
Early in the 1600's, King James
I decided that he would not
00:19:40.58\00:19:44.28
tolerate the agitation
of the Puritans any longer.
00:19:44.31\00:19:47.18
They'd either come into line
with the policies and practices
00:19:47.22\00:19:49.55
of the Church of
England, or they would leave.
00:19:49.58\00:19:52.35
And many of them left.
00:19:52.39\00:19:53.96
It was difficult for
those who lived in England.
00:19:53.99\00:19:56.26
Many of them began describing
themselves as Separatists,
00:19:56.29\00:19:59.59
because they came
to the conclusion that
00:19:59.63\00:20:01.50
the Church of England
was never going to change.
00:20:01.53\00:20:05.23
Many of them fled
to the Dutch Republic,
00:20:05.27\00:20:07.10
which at the time
was more favorable to
00:20:07.14\00:20:08.97
Reformed Protestantism.
00:20:09.00\00:20:11.04
Life was hard
for those immigrants.
00:20:11.07\00:20:12.54
Many of them had been
farmers and they were not
00:20:12.57\00:20:15.01
able to farm in
their new homeland.
00:20:15.04\00:20:17.68
Instead, they
had to learn a trade,
00:20:17.71\00:20:20.45
but they considered these
difficulties just part of God's
00:20:20.48\00:20:23.05
way of forming in
them a godly character.
00:20:23.08\00:20:26.96
"They knew they were pilgrims,
00:20:26.99\00:20:28.22
and looked not
much on those things,
00:20:28.26\00:20:30.49
but lifted up
their eyes to heaven,
00:20:30.53\00:20:32.36
their dearest country,
and quieted their spirits".
00:20:32.39\00:20:35.70
But many of those pilgrims
chose to leave the Netherlands
00:20:38.00\00:20:41.34
and return to
England before leaving again
00:20:41.37\00:20:45.04
onboard a ship
called the Mayflower.
00:20:45.07\00:20:48.04
They were headed
for the New World.
00:20:48.08\00:20:51.21
Now some
pilgrims didn't make it.
00:20:51.25\00:20:53.78
I'll tell you
more in just a moment.
00:20:53.82\00:20:55.28
¤[Theme Music]
00:20:55.32\00:21:00.86
I'm John Bradshaw
from It Is Written,
00:21:03.09\00:21:05.33
inviting you to join me for 500.
00:21:05.36\00:21:08.96
Nine programs
produced by It Is Written,
00:21:09.00\00:21:11.23
taking you deep
into the Reformation.
00:21:11.27\00:21:14.40
This is the 500th anniversary of
the beginning of the Reformation
00:21:14.44\00:21:18.57
when Martin Luther
nailed his 95 Theses to the door
00:21:18.61\00:21:21.48
of the Castle Church
in Wittenberg, Germany.
00:21:21.51\00:21:23.91
We'll take you to
Wittenberg, and to Belgium,
00:21:23.95\00:21:26.15
to England,
00:21:26.18\00:21:26.98
to Ireland,
00:21:27.02\00:21:28.55
to Rome,
00:21:28.58\00:21:29.38
to the Vatican City,
00:21:29.42\00:21:30.62
and introduce you to the people
who created the Reformation,
00:21:30.65\00:21:33.62
who pushed the
Reformation forward.
00:21:33.66\00:21:35.62
We'll take you to
sites all throughout Europe
00:21:35.66\00:21:37.59
where the Reformers
lived and in some cases died.
00:21:37.63\00:21:40.43
We'll bring you
back to the United States
00:21:40.46\00:21:42.06
and take you to a little
farm in Upstate New York,
00:21:42.10\00:21:45.07
and show you how God
spread the Reformation here.
00:21:45.10\00:21:48.00
Don't miss 500.
00:21:48.04\00:21:50.11
You can own the
500 series on DVD.
00:21:50.14\00:21:53.04
Call us on 888-664-5573
00:21:53.07\00:21:57.81
or visit us online
at itiswritten.shop.
00:21:57.85\00:22:02.05
This is It Is Written.
00:22:04.82\00:22:06.92
There were actually two
ships that left England,
00:22:06.96\00:22:09.82
bound for what
would become known
00:22:09.86\00:22:11.16
as the United States of America.
00:22:11.19\00:22:14.50
There was the
Mayflower and the Speedwell.
00:22:14.56\00:22:17.93
Together they left Southampton
on August the 5th, 1620,
00:22:17.97\00:22:22.00
but the Speedwell leaked,
00:22:22.04\00:22:24.61
not great for a ship intending
to cross the Atlantic Ocean.
00:22:24.64\00:22:28.81
Both ships stopped in Dartmouth
00:22:28.84\00:22:30.65
so the Speedwell
could be repaired.
00:22:30.68\00:22:32.85
After leaving Dartmouth,
00:22:32.88\00:22:34.45
they made it 350
miles beyond land's end
00:22:34.48\00:22:37.62
before it was
discovered that the Speedwell
00:22:37.65\00:22:39.99
was taking on water again.
00:22:40.02\00:22:44.06
So once more, they
returned to Dartmouth.
00:22:44.09\00:22:47.50
The Mayflower decided it would
push on without the Speedwell.
00:22:47.56\00:22:51.40
Some of the
00:22:51.43\00:22:52.67
Speedwell's passengers crammed
into the Mayflower, and so the
00:22:52.70\00:22:54.97
Mayflower, with 102 passengers
and between 25 and 30 crew,
00:22:55.00\00:23:00.08
headed off on what
would be a miserable voyage,
00:23:00.11\00:23:04.95
but they made it.
00:23:04.98\00:23:06.08
Slowly, but surely,
00:23:06.11\00:23:07.22
life was established
here in this new land.
00:23:07.25\00:23:10.35
More and more people
would follow in the footsteps
00:23:10.39\00:23:13.09
or in the wake of
the pilgrims of England.
00:23:13.12\00:23:15.46
They were driven by a desire
for liberty of conscience,
00:23:24.37\00:23:29.40
but they really didn't
understand what that truly was.
00:23:29.44\00:23:38.15
The idea that God has given the
right to control the conscience
00:23:38.18\00:23:41.85
to the church and has given
the church the right to define
00:23:41.88\00:23:46.09
and punish heresy
is a school of thought
00:23:46.12\00:23:49.16
that came right out of Rome.
00:23:49.19\00:23:51.19
So while these
people had rejected
00:23:56.06\00:23:57.43
many of the doctrines of Rome,
00:23:57.47\00:24:00.04
they retained the
spirit of Rome: intolerance.
00:24:00.07\00:24:04.74
Any church they set up would
ultimately be a church-state.
00:24:04.77\00:24:08.78
They dictated that
only church members
00:24:08.81\00:24:10.68
could have a say in government.
00:24:10.71\00:24:12.48
The secular power was
in the hands of the church,
00:24:12.51\00:24:16.62
which can only lead in
one direction: persecution.
00:24:16.65\00:24:22.76
In 1631, when Boston
was a brand new settlement,
00:24:29.90\00:24:33.64
a Puritan minister not 30 years
old arrived here from England.
00:24:33.67\00:24:37.31
Roger Williams was a separatist.
00:24:37.34\00:24:40.11
He believed that for a person
to be truly faithful to God,
00:24:40.14\00:24:43.11
that person should separate
from the Anglican Church.
00:24:43.14\00:24:46.88
He and his wife Mary
would have six children,
00:24:46.92\00:24:49.05
all born in the New World: Mary,
00:24:49.08\00:24:52.15
Freeborn,
00:24:52.19\00:24:53.15
Providence,
00:24:53.19\00:24:54.16
Mercy,
00:24:54.19\00:24:55.19
Daniel,
00:24:55.22\00:24:56.16
and Joseph.
00:24:56.19\00:24:57.76
It wasn't long and
people knew he was here.
00:24:57.79\00:25:04.60
Roger Williams was the
first person in this land
00:25:04.63\00:25:07.50
to stand up for something
that today we regard as a right.
00:25:07.54\00:25:11.67
He believed that
liberty of conscience
00:25:11.71\00:25:14.04
was the inalienable
right of all people,
00:25:14.08\00:25:17.51
whatever their religion.
00:25:17.55\00:25:19.45
He went so far as to
establish government upon
00:25:19.48\00:25:22.22
the principle of
religious freedom.
00:25:22.25\00:25:24.85
He was the first person in
modern Christianity to do that.
00:25:24.89\00:25:28.52
Williams believed that
the government had no place
00:25:28.56\00:25:30.93
dictating to individuals when
it came to religious matters.
00:25:30.96\00:25:34.56
That was an
entirely new way of thinking.
00:25:34.60\00:25:37.03
It was revolutionary.
00:25:37.07\00:25:39.63
In the early
days of the colonies,
00:25:39.67\00:25:41.87
church attendance
was required by law.
00:25:41.90\00:25:45.84
You could be
fined or even imprisoned
00:25:45.87\00:25:48.81
for not attending church.
00:25:48.84\00:25:50.98
Williams was scandalized by this
00:25:51.01\00:25:53.11
and he decided to
do something about it.
00:25:53.15\00:25:56.38
>>Lincoln: And it didn't
trouble the Puritans whatsoever,
00:25:56.42\00:25:59.62
that while they'd
left a bad situation,
00:25:59.65\00:26:01.59
to come to the New World
they just set the same model
00:26:01.62\00:26:04.56
where they would say
everyone had to go to church.
00:26:04.59\00:26:06.86
You'd be fined.
00:26:06.90\00:26:07.83
You had to abide by
what the minister said.
00:26:07.86\00:26:11.27
No freelance religion.
00:26:11.30\00:26:13.94
Roger Williams comes along,
00:26:13.97\00:26:15.84
and he was the conscience
and really the guiding light
00:26:15.87\00:26:21.38
of the true
principles of religious liberty
00:26:21.41\00:26:23.14
that we're keeping alive today.
00:26:23.18\00:26:26.01
>>John: It seems strange to
be talking about a battle over
00:26:26.05\00:26:28.78
religious freedom
in the United States,
00:26:28.82\00:26:31.22
but keep in mind the
times and the mindset then.
00:26:31.25\00:26:34.79
The Church of Rome
had taught very thoroughly
00:26:34.82\00:26:36.59
that there was no
religious freedom.
00:26:36.62\00:26:38.06
It claimed to be the
voice of God in the world.
00:26:38.09\00:26:41.33
The church spoke,
00:26:41.36\00:26:43.16
church members did what
they were expected to do.
00:26:43.20\00:26:46.47
So even though the
Church of England had separated
00:26:46.50\00:26:48.44
from the Roman Catholic Church,
00:26:48.47\00:26:49.67
it still retained a
lot of Rome's ideas.
00:26:49.70\00:26:54.21
So when the Puritans
came to the free world,
00:26:54.24\00:26:57.81
they were still hung up on the
concept of the church saying,
00:26:57.85\00:27:00.75
"jump" and the
faithful saying, "how high."
00:27:00.78\00:27:03.82
They had not embraced the
concept of religious liberty.
00:27:03.85\00:27:07.26
So in spite of the Reformation,
further reform was still needed.
00:27:07.29\00:27:13.26
So while the pilgrims and
other Puritan settlers came
00:27:13.29\00:27:15.96
to these shores for
the purpose of exercising
00:27:16.00\00:27:18.30
their own liberty of conscience,
00:27:18.33\00:27:20.57
many didn't believe in
extending the same right
00:27:20.60\00:27:22.67
to those who held
different beliefs.
00:27:22.70\00:27:25.41
Freedom was fine for themselves,
00:27:25.44\00:27:27.74
but not for people who
taught and practiced things
00:27:27.78\00:27:29.61
they disagreed with.
00:27:29.64\00:27:31.61
One historian described
this attitude with these words,
00:27:31.65\00:27:34.25
"New England divines
(pastors and theologians)
00:27:34.28\00:27:37.62
insisted repeatedly
that demand for uniformity
00:27:37.65\00:27:40.72
of religious practice in no way
violated liberty of conscience.
00:27:40.76\00:27:45.79
They contended that there were
two types of liberty: natural
00:27:45.83\00:27:50.20
(or corrupted) liberty and the
00:27:50.23\00:27:52.03
'liberty wherewith
Christ hath made us free.'
00:27:52.07\00:27:55.50
Liberty to practice error
came under the former heading
00:27:55.54\00:27:58.97
and was not
really liberty at all,
00:27:59.01\00:28:01.51
but license, the 'liberty
for men to destroy themselves.'"
00:28:01.54\00:28:07.25
Roger Williams is truly
one of the towering figures
00:28:07.28\00:28:09.68
in the American story.
00:28:09.72\00:28:11.19
And he's one of the
towering figures in the advance
00:28:11.22\00:28:14.16
of the Word of God.
00:28:14.19\00:28:15.56
Not only did he advocate
religious freedom for all,
00:28:15.59\00:28:19.09
he was also one of the earliest
and most vocal opponents
00:28:19.13\00:28:21.90
of slavery on these shores.
00:28:21.93\00:28:24.63
He advocated fair treatment
for Native American tribes.
00:28:24.67\00:28:27.60
He also learned
many of the languages
00:28:27.64\00:28:29.97
of the tribes in the Northeast.
00:28:30.01\00:28:31.91
He'd run into trouble
with the Anglican Church
00:28:31.94\00:28:33.94
before he came to America.
00:28:33.98\00:28:35.78
When he got here and he
found the same principles
00:28:35.81\00:28:37.78
of intolerance in a
place that was supposed to be
00:28:37.81\00:28:40.18
a haven for
liberty, it disturbed him.
00:28:40.22\00:28:43.15
He did not agree with
the Puritan's attempts to
00:28:43.18\00:28:45.39
set up a theocracy.
00:28:45.42\00:28:46.52
He said, "forced worship
stinks in the nostrils of God."
00:28:46.55\00:28:51.89
Williams
believed that Constantine
00:28:51.93\00:28:54.30
was worse for
the church than Nero,
00:28:54.30\00:28:57.07
because Constantine
successfully united the power
00:28:57.10\00:29:00.74
of the civil government with
the authority of the church.
00:29:00.77\00:29:05.17
And before long,
00:29:05.21\00:29:06.54
things would get much
worse for Roger Williams.
00:29:06.57\00:29:10.58
I'll have more in a moment.
00:29:10.61\00:29:11.95
¤[Theme Music]
00:29:11.98\00:29:16.79
>>Announcer: In Matthew
4:4 the word of God says
00:29:20.06\00:29:22.69
"It is written, 'Man
shall not live by bread alone,
00:29:22.72\00:29:25.83
but by every word that proceeds
from the mouth of God.'"
00:29:25.86\00:29:29.56
Every Word is a one minute,
Bible based daily devotional
00:29:29.60\00:29:32.73
presented by
Pastor John Bradshaw,
00:29:32.77\00:29:34.47
and designed especially
for busy people like you.
00:29:34.50\00:29:37.61
Look for Every Word
on selected networks,
00:29:37.64\00:29:40.34
or watch it online
every day on our website:
00:29:40.38\00:29:42.61
itiswritten.com.
00:29:42.64\00:29:45.21
Receive a daily spiritual boost.
00:29:45.25\00:29:47.35
Watch Every Word.
00:29:47.38\00:29:48.75
You'll be glad you did.
00:29:48.78\00:29:52.02
>>John: 500 years after the
Protestant Reformation began
00:29:58.83\00:30:01.33
on October 31st, 1517,
00:30:01.36\00:30:04.23
we might be tempted to
wonder what Luther, and Knox,
00:30:04.27\00:30:06.30
and Zwingli, and
Calvin, and Farel, and Beza,
00:30:06.33\00:30:08.10
and the Huguenots,
and the Anabaptists,
00:30:08.14\00:30:09.77
and so many others achieved.
00:30:09.80\00:30:12.54
Today it would seem
that the protest is over,
00:30:12.57\00:30:15.48
even though the most
influential church in the world
00:30:15.51\00:30:17.38
offers indulgences,
00:30:17.41\00:30:18.51
hears confessions,
00:30:18.55\00:30:19.48
teaches justification
by faith and works,
00:30:19.51\00:30:22.22
considers Mary
the queen of heaven,
00:30:22.25\00:30:24.59
where are the Protestants today?
00:30:24.62\00:30:26.39
Protestants are being welcomed
back into the Church of Rome,
00:30:26.42\00:30:28.69
and many see this as positive.
00:30:28.72\00:30:30.23
It's being said it's more
important to be divided by truth
00:30:30.26\00:30:34.36
than it is to
be united by error.
00:30:34.40\00:30:36.53
Paul said in 2
Timothy 4, verse two,
00:30:36.56\00:30:38.97
"Preach the word;
be instant in season,
00:30:39.00\00:30:41.67
out of season;
00:30:41.70\00:30:42.34
reprove,
00:30:42.37\00:30:43.14
rebuke,
00:30:43.17\00:30:44.11
exhort with all long
suffering and doctrine."
00:30:44.14\00:30:45.57
The word, anything
less will never do.
00:30:45.61\00:30:49.24
I'm John Bradshaw
for It Is Written.
00:30:49.28\00:30:50.68
Let's live today by every word.
00:30:50.71\00:30:53.11
¤[Music]
00:30:54.05\00:31:07.50
100 years after
the Reformation ended,
00:31:07.56\00:31:09.70
there was still a lot of
reform left to be accomplished.
00:31:09.73\00:31:13.54
As long as there was
no liberty of conscience,
00:31:13.57\00:31:16.04
and as long as the state
was united with the church,
00:31:16.07\00:31:18.64
the church was a long way
short of where it should be
00:31:18.67\00:31:21.78
from a Biblical perspective.
00:31:21.81\00:31:24.08
The man who would bring the
needed change was a Cambridge
00:31:24.11\00:31:26.72
educated Englishman
who moved to the colonies
00:31:26.75\00:31:29.38
six weeks after
his 27th birthday.
00:31:29.42\00:31:32.92
Williams was forced
to leave Massachusetts,
00:31:32.95\00:31:36.09
and he went into exile in 1636.
00:31:36.12\00:31:39.86
In the winter, he
journeyed through the forests,
00:31:39.89\00:31:43.10
not knowing where he was going.
00:31:43.13\00:31:44.97
Along the way he made
friends with many of the natives
00:31:45.00\00:31:47.37
and later said that
he would rather live
00:31:47.40\00:31:49.50
with Christian savages
than savage Christians.
00:31:49.54\00:31:52.81
His journeys led him here,
00:31:52.84\00:31:55.28
to a place that he
would name Providence,
00:31:55.31\00:31:58.41
convinced that the providence
of God had guided him.
00:31:58.45\00:32:10.33
It was Roger
Williams, not Thomas Jefferson
00:32:10.36\00:32:13.13
who first coined the
phrase "wall of separation"
00:32:13.16\00:32:16.03
so far as church
and state are concerned.
00:32:16.06\00:32:18.67
In 1644, Williams
described the need to build a
00:32:18.70\00:32:22.27
"wall of separation
between the garden of the church
00:32:22.30\00:32:26.04
and the
wilderness of the world."
00:32:26.07\00:32:28.44
Leonard Levy, a U.S.
Constitutional Scholar
00:32:28.48\00:32:31.08
commented on these
words of Roger Williams
00:32:31.11\00:32:33.52
with the following statement.
00:32:33.55\00:32:34.78
"Thus, the wall of separation
had the allegiance of the most
00:32:34.82\00:32:38.69
profound Christian impulse
as well as a secular one.
00:32:38.72\00:32:43.26
To Christian
fundamentalists of the Framers'
00:32:43.29\00:32:45.19
time the wall of separation
derived from the Biblical
00:32:45.23\00:32:48.33
injunction that Christ's
kingdom is not of this world."
00:32:48.36\00:32:53.03
The fundamental principle
of Roger Williams' colony
00:32:53.07\00:32:55.94
was that every man should
have liberty to worship God
00:32:55.97\00:32:59.27
according to the
light of his own conscience.
00:32:59.31\00:33:02.84
Rhode Island's
founding principles,
00:33:02.88\00:33:04.85
civil and religious liberty,
00:33:04.88\00:33:07.18
became the cornerstones
of the American Republic.
00:33:07.22\00:33:10.65
This was extremely significant.
00:33:10.69\00:33:13.32
And so today, the Declaration
of Independence states,
00:33:13.36\00:33:17.03
"We hold these
truths to be self-evident,
00:33:17.06\00:33:20.03
that all men are created equal;
00:33:20.06\00:33:22.90
that they're
endowed by their Creator
00:33:22.93\00:33:24.53
with certain unalienable rights;
00:33:24.57\00:33:27.30
that among these
are life, liberty,
00:33:27.34\00:33:30.54
and the pursuit of happiness."
00:33:30.57\00:33:32.94
The Constitution
guarantees freedom of conscience
00:33:32.97\00:33:35.84
in religious matters.
00:33:35.88\00:33:37.75
"No religious test shall ever
be required as a qualification
00:33:37.78\00:33:42.38
to any office of public
trust under the United States."
00:33:42.42\00:33:46.25
"Congress shall
make no law respecting
00:33:46.29\00:33:48.62
an establishment of religion,
00:33:48.66\00:33:50.63
or prohibiting the
free exercise thereof."
00:33:50.66\00:33:54.23
It was this environment
that allowed the preaching
00:33:54.30\00:33:56.60
and the teaching of
the Bible to flourish.
00:33:56.63\00:33:58.83
Of course, there have
been those who have abused
00:33:58.87\00:34:01.94
their religious freedom,
00:34:01.97\00:34:03.44
but just think
of the alternative:
00:34:03.47\00:34:05.21
a world in which you're not free
to believe what you believe.
00:34:05.24\00:34:08.98
That's the world Martin
Luther faced when he nailed
00:34:09.01\00:34:11.81
the 95 Theses to that
famous door back in 1517.
00:34:11.85\00:34:16.89
Word began to
spread back in Europe
00:34:16.92\00:34:18.29
about a place where a
person could worship God
00:34:18.32\00:34:20.66
according to the dictates
of his or her own conscience.
00:34:20.69\00:34:24.36
As one historian
wrote, "Massachusetts,
00:34:24.39\00:34:27.13
by special law,
offered free welcome and aid,
00:34:27.20\00:34:30.20
at the public cost, to
Christians of any nationality
00:34:30.23\00:34:33.60
who might fly
beyond the Atlantic
00:34:33.64\00:34:35.40
'to escape wars or famine,
00:34:35.44\00:34:37.27
or the oppression
of their persecutors.'
00:34:37.31\00:34:38.91
And so the fugitive
and the downtrodden were,
00:34:38.94\00:34:42.31
by statute, made the
guests of the commonwealth."
00:34:42.34\00:34:46.25
The colonies grew, and
the world saw the prosperity
00:34:46.28\00:34:49.98
and the increasing strength
of a church without a pope
00:34:50.02\00:34:54.09
and a state without a king.
00:34:54.12\00:34:56.79
In this patch of
earth, Roger Williams raised
00:34:56.83\00:34:59.16
up a memorial to
religious freedom.
00:34:59.19\00:35:02.06
The establishment of the Rhode
Island Colony was a landmark
00:35:02.10\00:35:05.43
event in the history of
the Protestant Reformation,
00:35:05.47\00:35:08.97
a new haven in a new land where
people would finally be free
00:35:09.00\00:35:14.71
to follow the dictates
of their own conscience
00:35:14.74\00:35:16.75
when it came to
matters of faith.
00:35:16.78\00:35:18.71
Even the Puritans
of Roger Williams' day
00:35:18.75\00:35:20.65
couldn't accept his thinking.
00:35:20.68\00:35:22.32
You see, it was the prevailing
belief 400 or so years ago
00:35:22.35\00:35:25.75
that the civil
government had every right
00:35:25.79\00:35:27.99
to dictate to
people's conscience.
00:35:28.02\00:35:30.66
That did not sit
well with Roger Williams
00:35:30.69\00:35:32.29
and it led him
into deep conflict.
00:35:32.33\00:35:35.26
But the conflict that
he experienced brought to
00:35:35.30\00:35:37.87
everyone that followed freedom.
00:35:37.90\00:35:41.80
Now of course, that meant
that if you wanted to opt out
00:35:46.81\00:35:48.78
to practice no religion,
00:35:48.81\00:35:50.95
to disagree with the church,
00:35:50.98\00:35:52.98
then it was your right to do so.
00:35:53.01\00:35:55.68
And it's this
spirit of religious liberty
00:35:55.72\00:35:57.52
that's described
in the New Testament,
00:35:57.55\00:35:59.52
just a few verses from the end
00:35:59.55\00:36:01.09
of the Bible where the bride
of Christ blends her appeal
00:36:01.12\00:36:05.16
with that of the Holy
Spirit in urging humanity
00:36:05.19\00:36:08.76
to accept God's
gift of salvation.
00:36:08.80\00:36:11.70
"The Spirit and
the bride say, 'Come!'
00:36:11.73\00:36:13.84
And let him who
hears say, 'Come!'
00:36:13.87\00:36:18.01
And let him who thirsts come;
00:36:18.04\00:36:21.08
and whoever desires, let him
take the water of life freely."
00:36:21.11\00:36:27.02
Freedom of conscience would
take hold in America in a way
00:36:27.05\00:36:30.75
not seen in any other civil
experiment in human history.
00:36:30.79\00:36:35.72
The inalienable right to
worship and follow conscience
00:36:35.76\00:36:38.89
as a person chooses would become
00:36:38.93\00:36:41.33
one of the main cornerstones
of the American experience,
00:36:41.36\00:36:44.50
and of the final stages of
the Protestant Reformation.
00:36:44.53\00:36:47.60
Roger Williams
demonstrated how important it is
00:36:54.48\00:36:57.35
for believers to press forward.
00:36:57.38\00:37:00.15
While the Reformation
accomplished an enormous amount
00:37:00.18\00:37:02.78
in terms of opening up the
Bible and bringing the light
00:37:02.82\00:37:05.95
of God's Word to the human mind,
00:37:05.99\00:37:08.46
there was still a
lot left to accomplish,
00:37:08.49\00:37:10.36
much more to learn,
00:37:10.39\00:37:12.19
more for the church
and more for believers
00:37:12.23\00:37:14.56
as they grew
towards God's ideal.
00:37:14.60\00:37:18.27
John Robinson was a
pastor of pilgrims in Holland.
00:37:18.30\00:37:22.04
And he said this to many
who were preparing to leave
00:37:22.07\00:37:24.34
for the New World.
00:37:24.37\00:37:26.44
"Brethren, we are now
erelong to part asunder,
00:37:26.47\00:37:30.05
and the Lord knoweth
whether I shall live ever
00:37:30.08\00:37:33.55
to see your faces more.
00:37:33.58\00:37:36.12
But whether the Lord
hath appointed it or not,
00:37:36.15\00:37:38.92
I charge you before
God and His blessed angels
00:37:38.95\00:37:41.96
to follow me no farther
than I have followed Christ.
00:37:41.99\00:37:47.50
If God should
reveal anything to you
00:37:47.50\00:37:49.36
by any other instrument of His,
00:37:49.40\00:37:51.97
be as ready to receive it
as ever you were to receive
00:37:52.00\00:37:55.54
any truth of my ministry;
00:37:55.57\00:37:58.67
for I am very confident the
Lord hath more truth and light
00:37:58.71\00:38:03.61
yet to break forth
out of His Holy Word."
00:38:03.65\00:38:08.65
I'm confident the Lord has more.
00:38:08.68\00:38:10.92
God has more
for you in His Word.
00:38:10.95\00:38:14.86
That was true in the
time of the pilgrims,
00:38:14.89\00:38:16.49
and that
commitment to the Bible,
00:38:16.52\00:38:18.59
to the progress of God's light
would lead others to advance
00:38:18.63\00:38:22.60
the course of the
Reformation and guide multitudes
00:38:22.63\00:38:26.20
into a deeper understanding
of God and His Word.
00:38:26.23\00:38:30.34
¤[Music]
00:38:30.37\00:38:35.58
How can you enjoy a
successful Christian experience?
00:38:37.48\00:38:41.38
How can you know
victory instead of defeat?
00:38:41.42\00:38:44.82
How can you live with
honor and integrity before God?
00:38:44.85\00:38:48.66
Well you can, and our
free offer today tells you how.
00:38:48.69\00:38:52.06
To receive "The War Is Over,"
00:38:52.09\00:38:53.66
call us on 800-253-3000
00:38:53.70\00:38:56.77
or visit us online
at itiswritten.com,
00:38:56.80\00:39:00.40
or you can write to
the address on your screen.
00:39:00.44\00:39:03.00
I'd like you to receive our
free offer "The War Is Over."
00:39:03.04\00:39:07.58
Thank you for remembering
that It Is Written exists
00:39:07.61\00:39:10.41
due to the gracious
support of people like you.
00:39:10.45\00:39:13.88
It's your kindness that makes
it possible for It Is Written
00:39:13.92\00:39:16.69
to share Jesus and the
great truths of the Bible
00:39:16.72\00:39:19.42
with the world.
00:39:19.45\00:39:20.72
You can send your
tax deductible gift
00:39:20.76\00:39:22.56
to the address on your screen,
00:39:22.59\00:39:24.36
or you can support It Is
Written through our website
00:39:24.39\00:39:26.56
itiswritten.com.
00:39:26.59\00:39:29.46
Thanks for your
generous support.
00:39:29.50\00:39:30.83
Our number is 800-253-3000
00:39:30.87\00:39:34.07
and our web
address is itiswritten.com.
00:39:34.10\00:39:37.11
Thanks for joining me on 500
brought to you by It Is Written.
00:39:38.31\00:39:41.98
My guest is
Pastor Lincoln Steed.
00:39:42.01\00:39:44.65
He's the editor
of Liberty Magazine,
00:39:44.68\00:39:46.45
which for 111 years has been
advancing the cause of religious
00:39:46.48\00:39:50.25
liberty and the concept of the
separation of church and state.
00:39:50.29\00:39:53.92
Pastor Steed,
thanks for joining me.
00:39:53.96\00:39:55.36
>>Lincoln: My pleasure.
00:39:55.39\00:39:56.36
>>John: Religious
liberty, okay. What is it?
00:39:56.39\00:39:58.29
>>Lincoln: Religious liberty
is the freedom that you have
00:39:58.33\00:40:01.40
in Christ to worship Him and
to explain that to other people.
00:40:01.43\00:40:05.33
And, you know and
that's the bottom line,
00:40:05.37\00:40:07.80
but when you're
dealing with civil society,
00:40:07.84\00:40:10.17
often there are claims the
state has upon its citizens
00:40:10.21\00:40:14.34
and there are assumptions
the people have about authority.
00:40:14.38\00:40:17.25
>>John: Now you mentioned when
we began the program that today
00:40:17.28\00:40:20.15
what most people believe
in is religious entitlement.
00:40:20.18\00:40:23.59
>>Lincoln: In the United States.
00:40:23.62\00:40:24.72
>>John: Yeah. So what's
that, how do you define that?
00:40:24.75\00:40:26.45
>>Lincoln: Well they want a
special legislative and social
00:40:26.49\00:40:29.56
privilege for their
particular religious viewpoint,
00:40:29.59\00:40:33.13
and in the United States you
often hear more and more today
00:40:33.16\00:40:36.03
that this is a Christian nation.
00:40:36.06\00:40:38.77
Now, they don't
mean a Muslim nation,
00:40:38.80\00:40:41.37
they certainly don't mean
that it's a secular nation.
00:40:41.40\00:40:45.14
They mean Christian.
00:40:45.17\00:40:46.44
They don't necessarily
mean Protestant anymore,
00:40:46.47\00:40:48.94
but they believe a
nation that will support
00:40:48.98\00:40:52.08
their particular viewpoints,
of course the right to worship,
00:40:52.11\00:40:54.88
but it might be more
and more their right to
00:40:54.92\00:40:57.85
legislatively guarantee
certain moral viewpoints.
00:40:57.89\00:41:03.02
And so it's putting a
certain class of religionists
00:41:03.06\00:41:06.76
up against secularists
00:41:06.80\00:41:08.30
and indeed up against some
other religious viewpoints.
00:41:08.33\00:41:11.83
That's not religious liberty.
00:41:11.87\00:41:13.40
It's sometimes been
said, in fact I say it a lot,
00:41:13.44\00:41:16.64
that the simple way to
understand if something
00:41:16.67\00:41:18.61
is religious liberty or
not: is there coercion involved.
00:41:18.64\00:41:22.11
If there is, it's
not religious liberty.
00:41:22.14\00:41:24.15
It certainly doesn't comport
at all with the original vision
00:41:24.18\00:41:27.68
of people like Roger Williams
who had a very distinct idea
00:41:27.72\00:41:32.69
of the rights of the
state and of the church.
00:41:32.72\00:41:34.72
>>John: Unpack that
for me a little bit.
00:41:34.76\00:41:37.56
Where was Roger
Williams on all of this?
00:41:37.59\00:41:39.19
Because he came from the
Old World to the New World
00:41:39.23\00:41:41.76
and discovered we
don't have freedom here,
00:41:41.80\00:41:44.00
which is a little
bit of a surprise.
00:41:44.03\00:41:45.43
A surprise that people
who were escaping persecution
00:41:45.47\00:41:48.04
brought persecution
with them on the boat.
00:41:48.07\00:41:50.21
How did Williams see
this, and what did he do
00:41:50.24\00:41:52.07
to bring religious
freedom to the colonies?
00:41:52.11\00:41:53.78
Because without Williams,
we may not have any semblance
00:41:53.81\00:41:56.95
of freedom of faith.
00:41:56.98\00:41:57.81
>>Lincoln:I
purposely brought him up,
00:41:57.85\00:41:58.91
and I know you have a
concern with Roger Williams.
00:41:58.95\00:42:02.42
In Europe the
Reformation had precursors.
00:42:02.45\00:42:05.52
In England, and you and
I and most of our viewers
00:42:05.55\00:42:09.06
certainly in the United States
00:42:09.09\00:42:10.53
look to the thread
of English history,
00:42:10.56\00:42:13.73
and the Reformation in England
started with John Wycliffe,
00:42:13.76\00:42:16.10
the distribution of
the Bible and the Lollards,
00:42:16.13\00:42:18.90
his followers that he sent out,
00:42:18.93\00:42:20.30
and seeded the whole
country with Protestant views,
00:42:20.34\00:42:23.57
or I'll put it another way,
00:42:23.61\00:42:25.21
the viewpoint of
individual religious freedom.
00:42:25.24\00:42:28.64
In the United States, I
think we see him the same way.
00:42:28.68\00:42:33.18
Of course this was
before this Republic was formed,
00:42:33.21\00:42:36.02
way before 1776 and the
events separating from England,
00:42:36.05\00:42:39.69
but it was a
very formative period,
00:42:39.72\00:42:41.69
and he was the conscience
and really the guiding light
00:42:41.72\00:42:47.23
of the true
principles of religious liberty
00:42:47.30\00:42:49.30
that we're keeping alive today.
00:42:49.33\00:42:51.67
>>John: Now a lot of fine
people will hear you speaking
00:42:51.70\00:42:53.74
and they'll think that
you're an insurrectionist
00:42:53.77\00:42:56.27
or a radical because...
00:42:56.30\00:42:57.64
>>Lincoln: Well they thought
Roger Williams was, absolutely.
00:42:57.67\00:42:59.47
>>John: ...Well, so let me
bring this around to a question
00:42:59.51\00:43:01.74
that wisdom might later
dictate I should've stayed
00:43:01.78\00:43:03.68
right away from.
00:43:03.71\00:43:05.28
See a lot of
people, because of...
00:43:05.31\00:43:07.12
probably haven't really
given this a lot of thought,
00:43:07.15\00:43:09.85
just see no problem with
the state enforcing or endorsing
00:43:09.88\00:43:13.42
certain religious principles
as long as they're theirs.
00:43:13.46\00:43:16.76
Would Roger Williams
have supported the idea
00:43:16.79\00:43:20.20
of prayer in schools?
00:43:20.23\00:43:21.73
>>Lincoln: No.
00:43:21.76\00:43:22.40
>>John: Why not?
00:43:22.43\00:43:23.60
What's wrong with having
the kids pray to God in school?
00:43:23.63\00:43:27.24
>>Lincoln: You
want the state to decide
00:43:27.27\00:43:28.87
what those prayers must be,
00:43:28.90\00:43:30.01
how they are worded,
00:43:30.04\00:43:30.97
how they're directed,
00:43:31.01\00:43:31.91
how they're orchestrated,
00:43:31.94\00:43:32.94
what terms you apply to them?
00:43:32.97\00:43:35.18
That's not good.
00:43:35.21\00:43:37.45
What I really want to bring out
00:43:37.48\00:43:38.68
that hardly
anybody seems to remember,
00:43:38.71\00:43:40.75
it's a plain matter
of historical record,
00:43:40.78\00:43:43.35
but Roger Williams didn't
just appear full blown suddenly
00:43:43.39\00:43:47.06
off the ship from England.
00:43:47.09\00:43:48.32
>>John: Sure.
00:43:48.36\00:43:49.32
>>Lincoln: There was a
huge movement in England
00:43:49.36\00:43:51.03
that had begun
with John Wycliffe.
00:43:51.06\00:43:53.63
He made the Bible
available to people.
00:43:53.66\00:43:55.70
People were stirring and
thinking that they had rights,
00:43:55.73\00:43:57.93
they had obligations
before God, not to the church.
00:43:57.97\00:44:01.24
At the time that
Roger Williams left England,
00:44:01.27\00:44:05.24
they were in a ferment
of religious opposition,
00:44:05.27\00:44:08.08
not against the Catholic Church;
00:44:08.11\00:44:09.41
the Protestant
Reformation had taken place;
00:44:09.44\00:44:11.98
but the true
reformation in an understanding
00:44:12.01\00:44:14.38
of religious liberty
was still developing.
00:44:14.42\00:44:16.62
The Church of England was being
administered in the same way.
00:44:16.65\00:44:20.39
You had to worship at church.
00:44:20.42\00:44:21.92
You couldn't think
anything except what they told.
00:44:21.96\00:44:25.33
You'd be fined if you
preached in the streets
00:44:25.36\00:44:28.26
as a freelance preacher.
00:44:28.30\00:44:30.00
And Roger Williams, early
on, saw that this could not be.
00:44:30.03\00:44:33.34
>>John: Let's back up.
00:44:33.37\00:44:34.77
Let's back up.
00:44:34.80\00:44:35.70
We'll go back to the
time of Martin Luther.
00:44:35.74\00:44:37.74
Let's transport ourselves
to Martin Luther's day.
00:44:37.77\00:44:41.71
And we'll look around
and we're asking ourselves,
00:44:41.74\00:44:44.61
"what's religious
freedom looking like here?"
00:44:44.65\00:44:48.05
in Luther's Wittenberg.
00:44:48.08\00:44:49.35
Explain that.
00:44:49.38\00:44:50.45
>>Lincoln: Well they
didn't have religious freedom.
00:44:50.49\00:44:52.15
You were to do as the
church and the state said.
00:44:52.19\00:44:55.52
It was partly that the church
had established this absolutist
00:44:55.56\00:44:58.53
sort of relationship
to its constituency,
00:44:58.56\00:45:02.20
but I think more particularly
they were barely out
00:45:02.23\00:45:05.57
of the Medieval period where
you were owned by the lord,
00:45:05.60\00:45:11.41
you didn't have
individual rights.
00:45:11.44\00:45:13.44
Forget religion, you
didn't have rights, period.
00:45:13.48\00:45:15.61
Even the lord was
a vassal of the king,
00:45:15.64\00:45:20.08
so it would
never have occurred to
00:45:20.12\00:45:22.05
anybody to think independently.
00:45:22.08\00:45:24.09
I'm constantly amused when
I watch Hollywood type movies
00:45:24.12\00:45:26.55
that are set in these periods
and you have you know the hero
00:45:26.59\00:45:29.92
backchatting the king.
00:45:29.96\00:45:31.53
They didn't do that.
00:45:31.56\00:45:32.89
You didn't have
civil or religious rights.
00:45:32.93\00:45:34.83
And the Catholic Church
was established in that.
00:45:34.86\00:45:37.17
They were not going to
grant anything other than that.
00:45:37.20\00:45:40.57
What broke it apart, I
believe, was two things.
00:45:40.60\00:45:44.01
Socially there was the
movement of people from the land
00:45:44.04\00:45:46.98
to small shopkeepers
and small business owners,
00:45:47.01\00:45:49.48
they were not bound
by Medieval obligations.
00:45:49.51\00:45:54.48
And then the
printing press came about.
00:45:54.52\00:45:56.48
There was some
technical advancements.
00:45:56.52\00:46:00.06
And it's worth remembering,
00:46:00.09\00:46:01.32
at the time of the Reformation
there were about five-million
00:46:01.36\00:46:04.13
books already
distributed in Europe,
00:46:04.16\00:46:06.83
most of them Bibles.
00:46:06.86\00:46:08.53
That's the singular reason.
00:46:08.56\00:46:10.20
With the loosening
of civil constraints
00:46:10.23\00:46:13.84
and then some
knowledge of what the word was,
00:46:13.87\00:46:16.00
it was unstoppable.
00:46:16.04\00:46:17.07
>>John: This is what I
was going to ask you next.
00:46:17.11\00:46:18.54
You really
preempted the question.
00:46:18.57\00:46:22.38
Why'd it take so long?
00:46:22.41\00:46:24.41
I mean religious
liberty, Roger Williams,
00:46:24.45\00:46:26.51
what about Martin Luther?
00:46:26.55\00:46:27.58
He wasn't talking
anything about religious liberty
00:46:27.62\00:46:29.52
and religious freedom.
00:46:29.55\00:46:30.65
>>Lincoln: No.
00:46:30.69\00:46:31.89
>>John: It took all the way
down to the time of Williams.
00:46:31.92\00:46:33.32
Why so long?
00:46:33.36\00:46:35.02
Maybe you've
answered that already.
00:46:35.06\00:46:36.22
>>Lincoln: Well, I think
it's a technical question.
00:46:36.26\00:46:38.29
Knowledge, you know the
Bible predicts the end times.
00:46:38.33\00:46:40.30
It says
"knowledge will be increased
00:46:40.33\00:46:41.60
and men run to and fro."
00:46:41.63\00:46:43.06
There was minimal knowledge.
00:46:43.10\00:46:44.63
It was called the Dark
Ages for a number of reasons,
00:46:44.67\00:46:46.87
but not least of which learning
and literacy was very low.
00:46:46.90\00:46:52.51
People couldn't read.
00:46:52.54\00:46:54.48
I myself have railed in
sermons against the Bible
00:46:54.51\00:46:57.55
chained to the
front of the church
00:46:57.58\00:47:01.25
and people weren't
allowed to get to it,
00:47:01.28\00:47:02.82
but they didn't
need to chain it.
00:47:02.85\00:47:04.82
It was meaningless to them.
00:47:04.85\00:47:06.49
And the first
thing Martin Luther did
00:47:06.52\00:47:07.82
apart from the 95 Theses,
00:47:07.86\00:47:09.52
he started printing
little tracks and things that
00:47:09.56\00:47:13.33
went out and around,
00:47:13.36\00:47:14.40
and of course he translated
the Bible into German.
00:47:14.46\00:47:17.97
I believe that's the
singular thing that broke apart
00:47:18.00\00:47:20.80
the hold that the
church and the state had on
00:47:20.84\00:47:25.01
hitherto ignorant citizenry.
00:47:25.04\00:47:26.57
>>John: Thank so much.
00:47:26.61\00:47:27.68
We'll be back with more.
00:47:27.71\00:47:28.98
Wait right there.
00:47:29.01\00:47:29.94
We have much more
from Pastor Lincoln Steed
00:47:29.98\00:47:31.61
from Liberty
Magazine coming right up.
00:47:31.65\00:47:33.98
¤[Music]
00:47:34.02\00:47:38.75
>>John: I'm John
Bradshaw from It Is Written,
00:47:40.56\00:47:42.62
inviting you to join me for 500.
00:47:42.66\00:47:46.33
Nine programs
produced by It Is Written,
00:47:46.36\00:47:48.56
taking you deep
into the Reformation.
00:47:48.60\00:47:51.70
This is the 500th Anniversary
00:47:51.73\00:47:54.17
of the beginning
of the Reformation,
00:47:54.20\00:47:55.90
when Martin Luther
nailed his 95 Theses to the door
00:47:55.94\00:47:58.81
of the Castle Church
in Wittenberg, Germany.
00:47:58.84\00:48:01.34
We'll take you to
Wittenberg, and to Belgium,
00:48:01.38\00:48:03.61
to England,
00:48:03.65\00:48:04.45
to Ireland,
00:48:04.48\00:48:05.98
to Rome,
00:48:06.01\00:48:06.85
to the Vatican City,
00:48:06.88\00:48:08.08
and introduce you to the people
who created the Reformation,
00:48:08.12\00:48:11.09
who pushed the
Reformation forward.
00:48:11.12\00:48:13.09
We'll take you to
sites all throughout Europe
00:48:13.12\00:48:15.06
where the reformers
lived and in some cases died.
00:48:15.09\00:48:17.89
We'll bring you
back to the United States
00:48:17.93\00:48:19.56
and take you to a
little farm in Upstate New York
00:48:19.59\00:48:22.53
and show you how God
spread the Reformation here.
00:48:22.56\00:48:25.47
Don't miss 500.
00:48:25.50\00:48:27.57
You can own the
500 series on DVD.
00:48:27.60\00:48:30.61
Call us on 888-664-5573
00:48:30.64\00:48:35.21
or visit us online
at itiswritten.shop.
00:48:35.24\00:48:39.05
Welcome back to 500.
00:48:41.08\00:48:42.25
I'm John Bradshaw
from It Is Written.
00:48:42.28\00:48:43.99
I'm glad to have with
me Pastor Lincoln Steed,
00:48:44.02\00:48:46.09
who's the editor
of Liberty Magazine,
00:48:46.12\00:48:47.82
which for more than 110
years has championed the cause
00:48:47.86\00:48:51.26
of religious
freedom and has spoken about
00:48:51.29\00:48:54.20
the separation
of church and state.
00:48:54.23\00:48:56.23
Pastor Steed, so religious
liberty in Roger Williams day.
00:48:56.26\00:49:01.00
He comes to Massachusetts.
00:49:01.04\00:49:03.24
On a day to day
experiential level,
00:49:03.27\00:49:06.14
what does it look
like for people in terms
00:49:06.17\00:49:07.64
of religious
freedom or not having it?
00:49:07.68\00:49:09.41
>>Lincoln: Well
they didn't have it.
00:49:09.44\00:49:11.18
Early on they
condemned Anne Hutchinson,
00:49:11.21\00:49:14.18
who was a woman,
00:49:14.22\00:49:15.35
a citizen of their
little model experiment.
00:49:15.38\00:49:19.32
And she was brought to task
and she refused to be silent,
00:49:19.35\00:49:22.22
so they banned
her, sent her away.
00:49:22.26\00:49:25.73
And most people don't know.
00:49:25.76\00:49:26.93
She fled into the wilderness,
just like Roger Williams.
00:49:26.96\00:49:30.03
And then a few years later,
00:49:30.07\00:49:31.60
her and her entire family
and the many who went with her,
00:49:31.63\00:49:34.44
they were killed by the Indians.
00:49:34.47\00:49:35.84
At the time everyone said,
"This is a judgment of God.
00:49:35.87\00:49:38.41
Therefore, she
must've been wrong
00:49:38.44\00:49:39.87
to question the magistrates."
00:49:39.91\00:49:41.74
>>John: Explain then how
you think Roger Williams,
00:49:41.78\00:49:46.01
the phenomenon
that was Roger Williams
00:49:46.05\00:49:48.05
has effected life for us today.
00:49:48.08\00:49:49.92
What did he hand down
to people living today?
00:49:49.95\00:49:51.69
>>Lincoln: Well he
effected the Baptists,
00:49:51.72\00:49:53.42
the Baptists picked up on
the Roger Williams approach
00:49:53.46\00:49:56.86
where he said that
there was a wall or a hedge
00:49:56.89\00:50:00.06
in the garden that should
separate church and state,
00:50:00.10\00:50:02.46
and there was to be no authority
that transferred between
00:50:02.50\00:50:05.60
the two, be totally separate.
00:50:05.63\00:50:07.07
Yeah, that was a thread
that came through from him,
00:50:07.10\00:50:11.07
but it was not the
general social thread.
00:50:11.11\00:50:14.14
We've inherited really
the other thread I think,
00:50:14.18\00:50:16.78
the idea that we use legislation
to support religious liberty.
00:50:16.81\00:50:20.75
At the moment I think
we're at the real crossroads
00:50:20.78\00:50:23.32
of these two threads
from early Americana.
00:50:23.35\00:50:26.19
One was
established in the Constitution
00:50:26.22\00:50:29.19
after much argument, and
I think as much as anything,
00:50:29.22\00:50:32.59
a fear of other
religious groups.
00:50:32.63\00:50:35.23
They jointly put the first
Amendment in place that says,
00:50:35.26\00:50:38.10
"Congress will make no
law establishing a religion,
00:50:38.13\00:50:41.37
nor prevent the
free exercise thereof."
00:50:41.40\00:50:44.11
That was called
by Thomas Jefferson
00:50:44.14\00:50:46.71
the wall of separation.
00:50:46.74\00:50:48.88
But I'm telling you, you go to
many religious get-togethers now
00:50:48.91\00:50:53.65
of the so
called religious right,
00:50:53.68\00:50:55.48
and they will
openly dismiss that
00:50:55.52\00:50:58.72
and almost spit at that concept.
00:50:58.75\00:51:00.56
They say they don't
believe in the separation
00:51:00.59\00:51:01.46
of church and state.
00:51:01.49\00:51:02.96
>>John:
According to the documents
00:51:02.99\00:51:05.63
that guide our government,
00:51:05.66\00:51:07.03
what are we entitled to in
terms of religious freedom,
00:51:07.03\00:51:10.30
religious liberty today?
00:51:10.33\00:51:11.50
>>Lincoln: Well by
the first Amendment,
00:51:11.53\00:51:13.74
it's both the strength and
the weakness of the Constitution
00:51:13.77\00:51:17.04
that it deals in
sweeping statements,
00:51:17.07\00:51:18.64
but doesn't get
into the particulars,
00:51:18.67\00:51:20.48
but it did essentially
mandate a hands off approach.
00:51:20.51\00:51:24.81
But those that want otherwise
of course have an angle,
00:51:24.85\00:51:27.72
because in the
several states they all had,
00:51:27.75\00:51:29.68
not all, most of them
had established churches.
00:51:29.72\00:51:33.09
But on the Federal level they
were to stay away from religion.
00:51:33.12\00:51:36.52
I think that's been a
very good protective mechanism.
00:51:36.56\00:51:39.03
There's no question.
00:51:39.06\00:51:39.96
>>John: But where
are we heading today?
00:51:40.00\00:51:41.96
Where are we going in
terms of religious liberty
00:51:42.00\00:51:44.87
in this country?
00:51:44.90\00:51:45.53
Where are we going?
00:51:45.57\00:51:46.70
>>Lincoln: Well as I say,
this is a very free country.
00:51:46.74\00:51:47.94
I mean I'd be foolish to make
a case that you're going to be
00:51:47.97\00:51:50.94
persecuted directly or inhibited
in any general sort of a way
00:51:50.97\00:51:55.28
in the United States.
00:51:55.31\00:51:56.44
It's got a general freedom
of function and of practice,
00:51:56.48\00:52:01.72
but we're heading close to
a new sort of an entitlement,
00:52:01.75\00:52:06.79
and along with that I
believe the first line
00:52:06.82\00:52:08.96
that's being crossed
is an establishment one,
00:52:08.99\00:52:10.93
the idea that the state
should support the true faith
00:52:10.96\00:52:15.13
or the truest elements.
00:52:15.16\00:52:17.30
In recent years
President Bush for example
00:52:17.33\00:52:20.67
brought in the
faith based initiative.
00:52:20.70\00:52:22.24
Remember that?
00:52:22.27\00:52:23.41
>>John: Sure.
00:52:23.44\00:52:24.94
>>Lincoln: Seems
ancient history now,
00:52:24.97\00:52:26.01
but it
established a bad precedent,
00:52:26.04\00:52:27.94
because billions of
dollars in welfare moneys
00:52:27.98\00:52:30.61
that were going to people
through the federal government
00:52:30.65\00:52:34.22
were then routed
through churches.
00:52:34.25\00:52:36.82
And I remember talking to
one of the government lawyers,
00:52:36.85\00:52:38.92
Carl Esbeck was his name.
00:52:38.95\00:52:41.46
He was in the
Justice Department to oversee
00:52:41.49\00:52:43.96
of the faith based initiative.
00:52:43.99\00:52:45.13
I said to him.
00:52:45.16\00:52:46.36
I said, "Tell me, under this
program where you have to decide
00:52:46.39\00:52:50.17
which churches are safe
to run the money through,
00:52:50.20\00:52:53.40
how does that differ
from countries like France
00:52:53.44\00:52:56.04
where they had a
list of acceptable
00:52:56.07\00:52:57.47
and unacceptable churches."
00:52:57.51\00:52:59.24
It's a defacto
acceptability list.
00:52:59.27\00:53:01.74
And once you start doing that,
00:53:01.78\00:53:03.68
and the church or the state
rather has a favorite religion
00:53:03.71\00:53:06.61
or a favorite
charity that it supports,
00:53:06.65\00:53:09.42
by definition religious liberty
is broken down in the whole.
00:53:09.45\00:53:13.72
We're heading
toward that very quickly.
00:53:13.76\00:53:15.29
But we're in the
attack on establishment.
00:53:15.32\00:53:19.39
The free exercise, not yet.
00:53:19.43\00:53:20.96
But it probably will come,
00:53:21.00\00:53:24.00
because
eventually you can't have an
00:53:24.03\00:53:25.70
imbalance in these two
elements of the first Amendment.
00:53:25.73\00:53:28.47
>>John: Now a few
hundred years ago,
00:53:28.50\00:53:31.41
the Roman Catholic Church
00:53:31.44\00:53:32.57
was in the
cross-hairs of the Reformers.
00:53:32.61\00:53:34.18
They ruled absolutely.
00:53:34.21\00:53:35.68
In fact, somebody famously said,
00:53:35.71\00:53:37.61
"power corrupts absolute
power corrupts absolutely",
00:53:37.65\00:53:40.92
and said that in reference
to the Roman Catholic Church.
00:53:40.95\00:53:44.02
So we kind of got beyond that.
00:53:44.05\00:53:45.89
We live in many places
in a Protestant society,
00:53:45.92\00:53:49.39
particularly in North America.
00:53:49.42\00:53:51.86
The power of the Roman Catholic
Church and its influence
00:53:51.89\00:53:54.03
is on the rise.
00:53:54.10\00:53:55.86
If you were
reading the tea leaves,
00:53:55.90\00:53:58.33
how would you say this
could affect issues dealing
00:53:58.37\00:54:01.80
with religious
freedom as we move forward?
00:54:01.84\00:54:03.67
>>Lincoln: Well, the
Roman Catholic Church of course
00:54:03.71\00:54:06.61
cries foul when
you talk history.
00:54:06.64\00:54:08.88
There was a document not
too many years ago called
00:54:08.91\00:54:10.95
"Memory and Reconciliation"
00:54:10.98\00:54:12.98
where they disavowed
things like the persecution
00:54:13.01\00:54:15.38
of the Jews,
00:54:15.42\00:54:16.05
the Crusades,
00:54:16.08\00:54:19.19
the Counter Reformation,
00:54:19.22\00:54:20.56
excesses and so on.
00:54:20.59\00:54:22.19
Although I read the document and
it said is it really possible to
00:54:22.22\00:54:25.23
ascribe guilt to
those of a previous age?
00:54:25.26\00:54:28.06
And then it drew a
very strange parallel.
00:54:28.10\00:54:30.33
It said, "Just as Christ,
00:54:30.37\00:54:32.17
perfect and undefiled
and incapable of error
00:54:32.20\00:54:37.34
took upon himself the
sins of fallen human beings,
00:54:37.37\00:54:40.01
so the
magisterium of the church,
00:54:40.04\00:54:42.78
holy and incapable of error,
00:54:42.81\00:54:45.18
will apologize for the actions
of some of its adherents."
00:54:45.21\00:54:48.98
You know  that's not an apology.
00:54:49.02\00:54:49.95
That's an
affirmation of their...
00:54:49.98\00:54:51.72
>>John: Superiority.
00:54:51.75\00:54:52.52
>>Lincoln: Yeah,
their superiority.
00:54:52.55\00:54:54.06
In a neat way they sort of
cut themselves off from history.
00:54:54.09\00:54:59.76
It's true, they have
changed in many practical ways,
00:54:59.79\00:55:02.36
but from history,
which I love to study,
00:55:02.40\00:55:05.77
I think the easiest way is to
say the Roman Catholic Church,
00:55:05.80\00:55:09.47
while it's part of the
continuum of Christianity,
00:55:09.50\00:55:12.17
it really is also the
continuum of the holy,
00:55:12.21\00:55:15.81
well not holy, of
the Roman Empire itself.
00:55:15.84\00:55:18.75
It never went away.
00:55:18.78\00:55:20.02
And the proof is in the pudding.
00:55:20.05\00:55:22.38
Whenever there's big agreements,
00:55:22.42\00:55:24.62
like setting up
the European Union,
00:55:24.65\00:55:26.76
or the European Common
Market as it once was called,
00:55:26.79\00:55:29.99
all these
agreements are made in Rome.
00:55:30.03\00:55:31.79
The Pope, I
believe, operates, again,
00:55:31.83\00:55:35.26
as the religious
godfather of European actions.
00:55:35.30\00:55:39.47
So I'd be careful because
even with good intentions
00:55:39.50\00:55:43.17
they can't totally structurally
remove themselves from
00:55:43.20\00:55:46.81
what they were and became.
00:55:46.84\00:55:49.98
It is worth
mentioning that, at the moment,
00:55:50.01\00:55:55.15
the Roman Catholic
Church is reordered somewhat
00:55:55.18\00:55:58.19
on religious liberty
by a document that came
00:55:58.22\00:56:00.36
out of the
Second Vatican Council.
00:56:00.39\00:56:02.89
It was a statement
on the rights of man,
00:56:02.92\00:56:06.13
Dignitatis humanae.
00:56:06.16\00:56:07.40
It says that everybody
has the right to believe
00:56:07.46\00:56:11.37
what they want, and
to change their religion,
00:56:11.40\00:56:13.20
and to witness to other people.
00:56:13.23\00:56:15.10
I don't know if
you were aware of that.
00:56:15.14\00:56:16.44
Most people are not.
00:56:16.47\00:56:17.77
For example, I was at a
meeting at Catholic University
00:56:17.81\00:56:20.58
where Cardinal
Dolan was addressing the
00:56:20.61\00:56:22.98
mostly Catholic group.
00:56:23.01\00:56:24.98
And in the middle of his
speech on religious liberty
00:56:25.01\00:56:26.78
he stopped and he
looked around, and he said,
00:56:26.82\00:56:29.62
"You know, the Catholic Church
once would not have spoken
00:56:29.65\00:56:33.22
this way about
religious liberty.
00:56:33.25\00:56:35.52
We once held that
error has no rights."
00:56:35.56\00:56:39.53
And then he went on.
00:56:39.56\00:56:40.40
And after a short
break they reconvened
00:56:40.43\00:56:42.90
and they
dispensed with the program.
00:56:42.93\00:56:44.67
The audience kept calling out,
"What did the Cardinal mean?
00:56:44.70\00:56:47.04
What was he talking about?"
00:56:47.07\00:56:48.00
And they had to be
told that Vatican Two
00:56:48.04\00:56:50.54
and this document
changed everything.
00:56:50.57\00:56:53.64
And my view is Roman Catholics,
00:56:53.68\00:56:56.04
I think, have had a refreshing
on this topic, but watch out.
00:56:56.08\00:56:59.35
When they rethink Vatican Two,
00:56:59.38\00:57:02.62
then the other
position will bubble up.
00:57:02.65\00:57:04.89
>>John: Protestantism
seems pretty well to
00:57:04.92\00:57:07.39
have lost its protest.
00:57:07.42\00:57:08.59
>>Lincoln: Well it's forgotten
what had protested about.
00:57:08.62\00:57:10.79
>>John: Why do you
think we've forgotten?
00:57:10.83\00:57:12.16
>>Lincoln: That's just
the nature of human beings.
00:57:12.19\00:57:14.86
You read the Old Testament
and the children of Israel,
00:57:14.93\00:57:17.50
a couple of days removed
from the fire on the mountain,
00:57:17.53\00:57:20.40
were wanting flesh
or whatever it was,
00:57:20.44\00:57:22.40
I think that's human nature.
00:57:22.44\00:57:23.51
In the recent debate
though, or not even debate now,
00:57:23.54\00:57:27.14
negotiations, I think
an injustice has been done
00:57:27.18\00:57:30.01
to the memory of the Reformation
because it's pretty much been
00:57:30.05\00:57:33.62
defined as just
justification by faith.
00:57:33.65\00:57:35.88
Martin Luther
wrote 95 Theses, many,
00:57:35.92\00:57:40.96
many points about
idols, and saints,
00:57:40.99\00:57:44.39
and the abuse of power,
00:57:44.43\00:57:45.99
and the claims to
dominance of the papacy.
00:57:46.03\00:57:48.46
>>John:
Purgatory and indulgences.
00:57:48.50\00:57:49.80
>>Lincoln: Not just
how we're saved and how
00:57:49.83\00:57:51.47
we appear before God.
00:57:51.50\00:57:53.27
And people should remember that.
00:57:53.30\00:57:54.54
But unfortunately the Lutheran
Federation a decade or so ago
00:57:54.57\00:57:59.64
signed on the dotted line
that it was a misunderstanding
00:57:59.67\00:58:02.71
on justification, and
that the Roman Catholic Church
00:58:02.74\00:58:05.38
didn't misunderstand,
they nailed that agreement
00:58:05.41\00:58:08.22
to the door of a Roman Basilica.
00:58:08.25\00:58:11.15
And only a few months ago
now they had another meeting,
00:58:11.19\00:58:14.02
I'm sure you know about,
00:58:14.06\00:58:15.36
where they said
there's now no longer
00:58:15.39\00:58:16.96
any impediment to
full reunification.
00:58:16.99\00:58:20.03
So that's not the only
aspect of the Reformation,
00:58:20.06\00:58:22.33
but I think they've
forgotten where we came.
00:58:22.36\00:58:24.43
They've forgotten.
00:58:24.47\00:58:25.27
Which you can
find out if you read
00:58:25.30\00:58:26.87
Foxe's Book of Martyrs.
00:58:26.90\00:58:28.24
Many people that were
killed for their faith,
00:58:28.27\00:58:30.54
just the slight word of Biblical
truth and they'd be cut down.
00:58:30.57\00:58:35.38
They've forgotten that
even after the Reformation
00:58:35.41\00:58:38.41
in these wars of Europe
that one Protestant sect
00:58:38.45\00:58:41.45
turned on the other.
00:58:41.48\00:58:43.55
>>John: We're out of time.
00:58:43.59\00:58:44.62
Thanks so much.
00:58:44.65\00:58:45.39
I've really enjoyed this.
00:58:45.42\00:58:46.22
I appreciate you
making time for us.
00:58:46.25\00:58:47.96
Well, let's pray
together before we go.
00:58:47.99\00:58:49.36
Let's do that now.
00:58:49.39\00:58:50.73
Our Father in heaven,
00:58:50.76\00:58:51.86
we're thankful that
You've given us truth and light,
00:58:51.89\00:58:55.00
that in Jesus Christ we
have salvation full and free,
00:58:55.03\00:58:58.30
that in Your
Word we have guidance
00:58:58.33\00:59:00.37
and everything we
need to understand You
00:59:00.40\00:59:02.57
and our purposes towards You.
00:59:02.60\00:59:04.97
So bless us as we
allow You to reform us
00:59:05.01\00:59:07.08
and prepare us for an
eternity which we believe
00:59:07.11\00:59:09.24
in Jesus is close at hand.
00:59:09.28\00:59:12.41
We thank You and we
pray in Jesus' name,
00:59:12.45\00:59:15.92
Amen.
00:59:15.95\00:59:17.29
Thanks for joining me.
00:59:17.32\00:59:18.25
I look forward to
seeing you again next time.
00:59:18.29\00:59:20.19
Until then, remember,
00:59:20.22\00:59:21.79
"it is written, 'man
shall not live by bread alone,
00:59:21.82\00:59:25.73
but by every word that
proceeds from the mouth of God."
00:59:25.76\00:59:28.50
¤[Theme Music]
00:59:28.53\00:59:38.57
¤[Theme Music]
00:59:38.57\00:59:44.51