¤[Theme music]¤
00:01:30.05\00:01:40.10
¤[Theme music]¤
00:01:40.10\00:01:47.30
>>John: Welcome to this special
broadcast from It Is Written.
00:01:49.20\00:01:52.57
I'm John Bradshaw.
00:01:52.61\00:01:53.64
And this is 500,
00:01:53.68\00:01:56.18
an in-depth look at
the Protestant Reformation,
00:01:56.21\00:01:58.91
which in 2017 is 500 years old.
00:01:58.95\00:02:04.49
In our last program,
00:02:04.52\00:02:06.09
we looked at the ministry and
the life of the great English
00:02:06.12\00:02:08.56
reformer and Bible
translator William Tyndale,
00:02:08.59\00:02:12.36
and at how the Bible
was absolutely central
00:02:12.39\00:02:15.83
to the Protestant Reformation.
00:02:15.86\00:02:18.07
This time, our program is
00:02:18.10\00:02:19.40
“Rome and the Reformation.”
00:02:19.43\00:02:21.60
We'll look at the role of
the Roman Catholic Church which,
00:02:21.64\00:02:24.14
after all, was the central
focus of the Reformation.
00:02:24.17\00:02:28.11
My special guest
later in the program will be
00:02:28.14\00:02:31.28
Professor of Near-Eastern
Studies and Archaeology at
00:02:31.31\00:02:34.52
Southern Adventist
University, Dr. Michael Hasel.
00:02:34.55\00:02:37.69
Dr. Hasel,
thanks for being here.
00:02:37.72\00:02:39.02
>>Dr. Hasel: It's
great to be with you.
00:02:39.05\00:02:40.36
>>John: I'm looking
forward to this in-depth look
00:02:40.39\00:02:42.56
at Rome's role
in the Reformation.
00:02:42.59\00:02:45.79
Do you think many
people today are conscious
00:02:45.83\00:02:49.63
that 500 years ago
Rome was front and center
00:02:49.66\00:02:53.60
in the religious world
and really brought about such
00:02:53.64\00:02:55.64
profound changes in the
00:02:55.67\00:02:57.17
religious and
political landscape?
00:02:57.21\00:02:58.97
>>Dr. Hasel: I think some are.
00:02:59.01\00:03:00.48
And I think, um, a lot has
changed in those 500 years,
00:03:00.51\00:03:04.25
and yet we're seeing
changes here again today
00:03:04.28\00:03:07.25
that seems to be
moving back into the direction
00:03:07.28\00:03:09.72
of what happened 500 years ago.
00:03:09.75\00:03:11.29
>>John: Thanks for being here.
00:03:11.32\00:03:12.32
In a few moments
we'll look at this in depth.
00:03:12.35\00:03:15.86
Our program “Rome
and the Reformation”
00:03:15.89\00:03:17.46
took us to some
fascinating locations,
00:03:17.49\00:03:19.36
including, unsurprisingly, Rome.
00:03:19.39\00:03:21.96
And to the Vatican City.
00:03:22.00\00:03:24.50
As a former Roman Catholic, this
program was important to me.
00:03:24.53\00:03:29.20
I was raised as a Roman Catholic
in a Roman Catholic family,
00:03:29.24\00:03:32.91
in a town where
the Catholic church
00:03:32.94\00:03:34.64
was the most
prominent church in town.
00:03:34.68\00:03:37.58
The mayor of the
town attended our church,
00:03:37.61\00:03:39.88
as did anyone who
was really anyone.
00:03:39.91\00:03:43.59
I was convinced
as a Roman Catholic
00:03:43.62\00:03:45.45
I was part of the
largest church on the planet.
00:03:45.49\00:03:47.59
We had the pope.
00:03:47.62\00:03:49.22
We had St. Peter's.
00:03:49.26\00:03:51.49
When Pope John Paul the
Second visited New Zealand,
00:03:51.53\00:03:54.56
I made
something of a pilgrimage,
00:03:54.56\00:03:56.16
traveling many hours from
where I was living at the time,
00:03:56.20\00:03:59.50
to the largest
city in New Zealand,
00:03:59.53\00:04:01.74
to a mass mass.
00:04:01.77\00:04:04.37
Tens of thousands of
people had gathered together
00:04:04.41\00:04:06.47
at the Auckland Domain to
see Pope John Paul the Second,
00:04:06.51\00:04:10.51
and I was part of that.
00:04:10.55\00:04:12.08
As a younger child,
00:04:12.11\00:04:14.02
there was a time
that I did not miss mass
00:04:14.05\00:04:16.75
a single day in
two and half years.
00:04:16.79\00:04:19.99
And when I say a single day,
00:04:20.02\00:04:21.26
I mean a single day
and not a single Sunday.
00:04:21.29\00:04:23.96
It was quite a
streak of church attendance.
00:04:23.99\00:04:26.76
And, and as an altar boy,
00:04:26.80\00:04:28.36
I was very close to the heart
and the life of the church.
00:04:28.40\00:04:32.60
And I was glad to be.
00:04:32.63\00:04:35.27
But perhaps what I had
00:04:35.30\00:04:36.37
was something of a
Martin Luther moment,
00:04:36.40\00:04:39.54
when as a Roman Catholic child
00:04:39.57\00:04:42.71
I started to spot
what I considered to be
00:04:42.74\00:04:45.21
some
inconsistencies in my faith.
00:04:45.25\00:04:49.45
And it might be that that's
how the Reformation began.
00:04:49.48\00:04:54.02
We're familiar
with the story now,
00:04:54.06\00:04:55.36
and we'll look at it
again and again during 500,
00:04:55.39\00:04:59.76
that as a Roman
Catholic priest Martin Luther
00:04:59.79\00:05:02.70
discovered what he believed to
be inconsistencies in his faith.
00:05:02.73\00:05:07.74
And this led him to
deep study of the Bible,
00:05:07.77\00:05:11.54
and then the realization
that much of what his church
00:05:11.57\00:05:13.84
was teaching was not
consistent with the Word of God.
00:05:13.88\00:05:17.48
Hence, the reformation was born.
00:05:17.51\00:05:20.72
In this program,
“Rome and the Reformation,”
00:05:20.75\00:05:23.79
we'll take you to
some impressive locations.
00:05:23.82\00:05:26.55
We'll visit the Vatican City.
00:05:26.59\00:05:28.56
We'll go to St.
Peter's Basilica.
00:05:28.59\00:05:31.16
And when you visit
monuments like St. Peter's,
00:05:31.19\00:05:33.36
you start to understand
why the Roman Catholic faith
00:05:33.40\00:05:37.17
is so influential,
00:05:37.20\00:05:39.17
so dominant in the minds
and thinking of so many people.
00:05:39.20\00:05:41.70
St. Peter's is impressive.
00:05:41.74\00:05:44.91
The architecture is splendid.
00:05:44.94\00:05:47.28
The monuments to
the great heroes of the
00:05:47.31\00:05:50.18
Roman Catholic Church of the
past are there for all to see.
00:05:50.21\00:05:54.35
So when we look at
Rome and the Reformation,
00:05:54.38\00:05:57.25
what do we look at?
00:05:57.29\00:05:59.09
We look at a system
that for hundreds of years
00:05:59.12\00:06:02.82
was the dominant force,
religiously and politically,
00:06:02.86\00:06:07.56
throughout the entire world.
00:06:07.60\00:06:09.66
We look at a system that
came to the place where it was,
00:06:09.70\00:06:12.33
at least others believed,
in desperate need of reform.
00:06:12.37\00:06:16.27
And it was the reform of
the Roman Catholic Church
00:06:16.30\00:06:21.44
that led people like
Martin Luther and others;
00:06:21.48\00:06:24.01
Ulrich Zwingli,
00:06:24.05\00:06:25.08
John Knox,
00:06:25.11\00:06:26.15
John Calvin,
00:06:26.18\00:06:27.32
William Farel,
00:06:27.35\00:06:28.85
many others besides,
00:06:28.88\00:06:30.82
to go to the Bible and
discover what the Bible
00:06:30.85\00:06:32.79
had to say in terms
of faith and practice.
00:06:32.82\00:06:35.59
And it's worth
asking the question today:
00:06:35.62\00:06:38.79
the Reformation
which 500 years ago
00:06:38.83\00:06:41.03
had such a profound influence
on the Roman Catholic Church,
00:06:41.06\00:06:44.73
what effect does it have on
the Roman Catholic Church today?
00:06:44.77\00:06:48.97
Is Rome dominant today
as it was 500 years ago?
00:06:49.00\00:06:52.91
And if not as it
was 500 years ago,
00:06:52.94\00:06:56.18
how does Rome
impact the world today,
00:06:56.21\00:07:00.85
politically as
well as religiously?
00:07:00.88\00:07:05.42
And so in just a few moments,
“Rome and the Reformation,”
00:07:05.45\00:07:09.46
filmed on location in Europe.
00:07:09.49\00:07:11.99
And after “Rome
and the Reformation,”
00:07:12.03\00:07:14.00
I'll be back again to
speak with Dr. Michael Hasel of
00:07:14.00\00:07:16.20
Southern Adventist University.
00:07:16.23\00:07:17.90
Don't go away.
00:07:17.93\00:07:18.53
We'll be right back.”
00:07:18.57\00:07:19.87
¤[Music]¤
00:07:19.90\00:07:25.11
>>John: Who is the
mystery beast of Revelation?
00:07:26.78\00:07:29.38
The Book of
Revelation speaks of a power
00:07:29.41\00:07:31.08
of tremendous religious
and political significance
00:07:31.11\00:07:33.78
that will rise up
in Earth's last days.
00:07:33.82\00:07:36.75
Find out who it is by
receiving this free offer,
00:07:36.79\00:07:39.49
“The Mystery
Beast of Revelation.”
00:07:39.52\00:07:42.12
Call us on 800-253-3000,
00:07:42.16\00:07:45.33
or visit us online
at itiswritten.com.
00:07:45.36\00:07:49.06
Or you can write to
the address on your screen.
00:07:49.10\00:07:51.83
I'd like you to
receive our free offer,
00:07:51.87\00:07:54.07
“The Mystery
Beast of Revelation.”
00:07:54.10\00:07:55.47
¤[Music]¤
00:07:55.50\00:07:56.60
Thank you for remembering
that It Is Written exists
00:07:56.64\00:07:59.34
due to the gracious
support of people like you.
00:07:59.37\00:08:02.88
It's your support that makes
it possible for It Is Written
00:08:02.91\00:08:05.15
to share Jesus and the
great truths of the Bible
00:08:05.18\00:08:08.32
with the world.
00:08:08.35\00:08:09.95
You can send your
tax-deductible gift
00:08:09.98\00:08:11.82
to the address on your screen
00:08:11.85\00:08:13.62
or you can support It Is
Written through our website
00:08:13.66\00:08:16.06
itiswritten.com.
00:08:16.09\00:08:18.63
Thanks for your
generous support.
00:08:18.66\00:08:20.03
Our number is 800-253-3000
00:08:20.06\00:08:23.57
and our web
address is itiswritten.com.
00:08:23.60\00:08:26.63
>>John: This is It Is
Written. I'm John Bradshaw.
00:08:27.70\00:08:31.11
Thanks for joining me in Rome.
00:08:31.14\00:08:33.94
¤[Music]¤
00:08:33.98\00:08:35.44
3 million people
call this city home.
00:08:35.48\00:08:39.15
It's one of the most
visited cities in the world.
00:08:39.18\00:08:43.28
And has some of
the planet's most
00:08:43.32\00:08:45.12
recognizable
tourist attractions.
00:08:45.15\00:08:49.06
20 million people
visit Rome every year.
00:08:49.09\00:08:52.99
4 million alone
visit the Colosseum.
00:08:53.03\00:08:56.53
That's 11,000 a day.
00:08:56.56\00:08:58.50
[Vehicle sounds]
00:08:58.53\00:09:01.47
Legend has is that
Rome was founded in 753 B.C.
00:09:01.50\00:09:05.67
Which means people
have been living here
00:09:05.71\00:09:07.21
almost 3 thousand years;
most likely a lot longer.
00:09:07.24\00:09:12.15
Rome was home to the emperors,
00:09:12.18\00:09:14.28
Constantine,
00:09:14.32\00:09:15.55
and Trajan,
00:09:15.58\00:09:16.42
and Nero,
00:09:16.45\00:09:17.52
and others.
00:09:17.55\00:09:18.62
The Olyimpc games
were held here in 1960,
00:09:18.65\00:09:21.52
Rome was bombed
during Word War II,
00:09:21.56\00:09:24.39
history oozes from the
pores of the eternal city.
00:09:24.43\00:09:29.46
The Roman empire which
ruled for around 600 years
00:09:33.80\00:09:37.27
was governed from Rome.
00:09:37.31\00:09:39.34
As well as being the
capital of Italy today,
00:09:39.37\00:09:41.98
Rome was the
capital of the Roman empire,
00:09:42.01\00:09:44.45
and for half a millenium was
the largest city in the world.
00:09:44.48\00:09:48.55
The Roman empire stretched
all the way from Hadrian's wall
00:09:48.58\00:09:52.09
in the north of England,
00:09:52.12\00:09:53.42
across Europe and north
Africa to the Persian Gulf.
00:09:53.46\00:09:57.43
But visit Rome and there's
no escaping an obvious fact,
00:09:57.46\00:10:01.56
the city is dominated by a
certain entity which happens
00:10:01.60\00:10:04.40
to be the largest Christian
denomination in the world.
00:10:04.43\00:10:08.87
St. Peter's
Basilica in the Vatican city
00:10:08.90\00:10:11.17
is one of the largest
church buildings in the world.
00:10:11.21\00:10:14.38
It's not a cathedral,
00:10:14.41\00:10:16.28
the cathedral of
the pope of Rome,
00:10:16.31\00:10:17.91
who also happens to
be the Bishop of Rome
00:10:17.95\00:10:20.45
is the archbasilica
of St. John Lateran;
00:10:20.48\00:10:23.42
which is about
3 miles from here.
00:10:23.45\00:10:25.82
And the faithful come
here from all over the world
00:10:25.85\00:10:28.29
to visit shrines and
cathedrals and Holy sites
00:10:28.32\00:10:31.73
that are
important to their faith.
00:10:31.76\00:10:34.40
Rome claims that it is the one
true church founded by Jesus,
00:10:38.10\00:10:43.37
and that the pope is
St. Peter's successor.
00:10:43.41\00:10:48.08
But while the church of
Rome has occupied the place
00:10:48.11\00:10:50.68
of greatest influence
of any church in the world
00:10:50.71\00:10:53.35
for well over a thousand years,
00:10:53.38\00:10:56.12
there was a time when
its influence and supremacy
00:10:56.15\00:10:59.42
was jeopardized.
00:10:59.45\00:11:02.06
When the Protestant
Reformation challenged
00:11:06.13\00:11:08.06
the authority of the established
church 500 years ago,
00:11:08.10\00:11:11.73
it took on what had become
the most powerful institution
00:11:11.77\00:11:14.90
in western civilization.
00:11:14.94\00:11:18.67
So how did the
church become so powerful?
00:11:18.71\00:11:22.21
Well when the
Roman empire collapsed
00:11:22.24\00:11:23.58
in the 5th century A.D.
00:11:23.61\00:11:25.15
an enormous power
vacuum was created in Europe.
00:11:25.18\00:11:29.02
By that time, Christianity
had been established
00:11:29.05\00:11:31.95
as the state
religion of the Roman empire.
00:11:31.99\00:11:34.99
That had been so
for more than 150 years.
00:11:35.02\00:11:38.36
There was only one
power that could provide
00:11:38.39\00:11:41.90
any measure of stability,
00:11:41.93\00:11:44.33
one historian put it this way.
00:11:44.37\00:11:46.97
“With the breakup of the Roman
bureaucracy the structure of
00:11:47.00\00:11:50.24
daily life was
threatened with disintegration.
00:11:50.27\00:11:53.78
The only trace left
of the Roman organism
00:11:53.81\00:11:56.28
was the Catholic Church,
00:11:56.31\00:11:58.48
and the only men with
administrative experience
00:11:58.51\00:12:02.05
were the bishops.”
00:12:02.08\00:12:03.92
Another historian wrote:
00:12:03.95\00:12:05.55
“The reins and
skills of government were
00:12:05.59\00:12:07.99
handed down by a dying
empire to a virile papacy;
00:12:08.02\00:12:12.63
the lost power of the
broken sword was rewon
00:12:12.66\00:12:16.36
by the magic of
the consoling word;
00:12:16.40\00:12:19.23
the armies of the state were
replaced by the missionaries
00:12:19.27\00:12:22.40
of the Church
moving in all directions
00:12:22.44\00:12:25.41
along the Roman roads,
00:12:25.44\00:12:27.14
and the revolted provinces,
accepting Christianity,
00:12:27.18\00:12:30.88
again acknowledged
the sovereignty of Rome.”
00:12:30.91\00:12:34.48
The transition from
ancient to medieval Christianity
00:12:41.42\00:12:44.93
began in earnest
with the conversion
00:12:44.96\00:12:47.10
of the emperor Constantine.
00:12:47.13\00:12:49.10
Which was almost certainly
only a nominal conversion.
00:12:49.13\00:12:52.57
Constantine's arch,
built more than 1700 years ago,
00:12:52.60\00:12:56.87
very near the Colliseum,
00:12:56.91\00:12:58.57
commemorates the victory that
brought Constantine to power
00:12:58.61\00:13:01.61
in 312 A.D.
00:13:01.64\00:13:06.65
Constantine claimed that
he'd received a vision from God
00:13:06.68\00:13:10.05
assuring him
that he would triumph
00:13:10.09\00:13:11.92
which led him to
embrace Christianity,
00:13:11.95\00:13:14.22
which until that time
had been a persecuted sect.
00:13:14.26\00:13:17.63
Christianity became the
means through which Constantine
00:13:17.66\00:13:20.73
brought peace and
unity to the empire.
00:13:20.76\00:13:24.27
But that peace and
unity came at a high price.
00:13:24.30\00:13:29.17
As the church found acceptance
with kings and emporers,
00:13:29.20\00:13:32.91
Christianity itself
underwent a metamorphisis.
00:13:32.94\00:13:36.58
It began to resemble less and
less the early Christan church,
00:13:36.61\00:13:40.75
and was influenced
more and more, by Paganism.
00:13:40.78\00:13:44.82
Keep in mind that the Roman
emporers including Constantine,
00:13:44.85\00:13:48.26
had been Pagans.
00:13:48.29\00:13:49.66
As you might imagine, it
would've been difficult at best
00:13:49.69\00:13:54.00
for Constantine's new
found faith not to have been
00:13:54.03\00:13:57.23
influenced by
his Pagan background.
00:13:57.27\00:14:00.04
Turned out to be impossible.
00:14:00.07\00:14:02.94
Centuries before Jesus
had said of the Pharisees:
00:14:02.97\00:14:06.17
“In vain they worship Me,
00:14:06.21\00:14:08.54
teaching as doctrines
the commandments of men.”
00:14:08.58\00:14:11.11
Matthew 15:9.
00:14:11.15\00:14:12.78
Throughout western Christianity,
00:14:12.81\00:14:14.68
Paganism and the faith of Jesus
along with church and state,
00:14:14.72\00:14:18.69
were blended together.
00:14:18.72\00:14:20.96
The Roman empire
was a Pagan empire,
00:14:20.99\00:14:23.86
when it embraced Christianity
00:14:23.89\00:14:25.89
it didn't rid
itself of Pagan influences.
00:14:25.93\00:14:29.56
Instead, it embraced
them and absorbed them.
00:14:29.60\00:14:34.57
As a result, the church
lost the power of the Gospel.
00:14:34.60\00:14:39.37
The story is told
that Pope Julius the second
00:14:39.41\00:14:41.51
was once speaking with the
scholar Erasmus here in Rome.
00:14:41.54\00:14:45.58
He referred to the
church's great wealth
00:14:45.61\00:14:47.55
and then referenced Peter's
statement in Acts chapter 3:
00:14:47.58\00:14:51.09
“Silver and gold have I none.”
00:14:51.12\00:14:53.52
The pope turned to
the scholar and he said,
00:14:53.56\00:14:56.12
“well we cannot
say that now, can we?”
00:14:56.16\00:14:58.49
And the scholar
replied by saying.
00:14:58.53\00:15:00.06
“no we cannot.
00:15:00.10\00:15:01.63
And neither can we
say, rise up and walk.”
00:15:01.66\00:15:05.27
Back with more in just a moment.
00:15:05.30\00:15:06.97
[Music]
00:15:07.00\00:15:12.37
>>John: I'm John
Bradshaw from It Is Written,
00:15:13.84\00:15:16.01
inviting you to join me for 500,
00:15:16.04\00:15:19.65
nine programs
produced by it Is Written
00:15:19.68\00:15:21.95
taking you deep
into the Reformation.
00:15:21.98\00:15:25.09
This is the 500th
anniversary of the beginning
00:15:25.12\00:15:28.22
of the Reformation,
00:15:28.26\00:15:29.39
when Martin Luther
nailed his 95 theses
00:15:29.42\00:15:31.86
to the door of the Castle
church in Wittenberg, Germany.
00:15:31.89\00:15:34.60
We'll take you to Wittenberg,
00:15:34.63\00:15:36.10
and to Belgium,
00:15:36.13\00:15:37.10
to England,
00:15:37.13\00:15:37.93
to Ireland,
00:15:37.97\00:15:39.30
to Rome,
00:15:39.33\00:15:40.07
to the Vatican City,
00:15:40.10\00:15:41.40
and introduce you to the people
who created the Reformation,
00:15:41.44\00:15:44.41
who pushed the
Reformation forward.
00:15:44.44\00:15:46.31
We'll take you to
sites all throughout Europe
00:15:46.34\00:15:48.28
where the reformers
lived and, in some cases, died.
00:15:48.31\00:15:51.08
We'll bring you
back to the United States
00:15:51.11\00:15:52.78
and take you to a little
farm in upstate New York,
00:15:52.81\00:15:55.72
and show you how God
spread the Reformation here.
00:15:55.75\00:15:58.65
Don't miss 500.
00:15:58.69\00:16:00.86
You can own the
500 series on DVD.
00:16:00.89\00:16:03.99
Call us on 888-664-5573,
00:16:04.03\00:16:08.66
or visit us online
at itiswritten.shop.
00:16:08.70\00:16:13.40
>>John: Thanks for
joining me on It Is Written.
00:16:14.77\00:16:17.27
The New Testament
church had very little wealth
00:16:17.31\00:16:20.24
and absolutely
no political power.
00:16:20.28\00:16:23.48
But it did have what the
apostle Paul described as
00:16:23.51\00:16:26.21
“the power of God to salvation.”
00:16:26.25\00:16:29.08
And the book of
Acts says that that power
00:16:29.12\00:16:31.59
“turned the world upside down.”
00:16:31.62\00:16:34.42
But when the church
compromised with the world
00:16:34.46\00:16:36.59
in order to receive
favor and protection,
00:16:36.62\00:16:39.93
that primitive power
of the Gospel was lost.
00:16:39.96\00:16:43.47
¤[Music]¤
00:16:43.50\00:16:49.37
But civil and ecclesiastical
power soon fell into the hands
00:16:49.40\00:16:53.27
of the church as
Europe searched for stability.
00:16:53.31\00:16:57.28
The Emperor Justinian,
00:16:57.31\00:16:58.71
who had ruled what was once the
eastern half of the Roman Empire
00:16:58.75\00:17:01.95
became the champion
for Roman Christianity.
00:17:01.98\00:17:05.29
The Emperor became the
defender of the church,
00:17:05.32\00:17:08.42
and set about to
destroy by military means
00:17:08.46\00:17:11.83
the theological
enemies of the church.
00:17:11.86\00:17:14.76
Tribes such as the Heruli,
00:17:14.83\00:17:16.63
the Ostrogoths and the Vandals
were subdued and conquered.
00:17:16.67\00:17:21.57
One historian
reflected upon these conquests.
00:17:21.60\00:17:25.21
“The Church, with the shadow of
the ancient authority behind it,
00:17:25.24\00:17:29.08
was the only symbol
left of imperial Rome,
00:17:29.11\00:17:32.41
and its bishop,
00:17:32.45\00:17:33.55
the Pope,
00:17:33.58\00:17:34.78
was the city's only recourse
for leadership and protection,
00:17:34.82\00:17:38.05
The Roman Empire in
Europe would be replaced
00:17:38.09\00:17:40.82
by the spiritual empire,
00:17:40.86\00:17:42.76
which came to be
temporal as well,
00:17:42.79\00:17:45.43
whose reigning seigneur
was the bishop of Rome.”
00:17:45.46\00:17:49.90
There were some colorful
characters associated with
00:17:51.20\00:17:53.37
the papacy in the Middle Ages.
00:17:53.40\00:17:56.07
Pope Gregory the Seventh,
who reigned in the 11th century,
00:17:56.10\00:17:59.94
forced the
German Emperor Henry IV
00:18:00.04\00:18:03.45
to wait outside in
the snow for three days
00:18:03.48\00:18:07.82
before agreeing to see him
and reconcile him to the church.
00:18:07.85\00:18:12.05
Now, you might not expect things
to be done that way today,
00:18:12.09\00:18:14.32
but in the medieval church,
that's how things were done.
00:18:14.36\00:18:17.86
¤[Music]¤
00:18:17.89\00:18:22.26
Pope Sixtus the Fourth,
00:18:22.30\00:18:24.27
famous for building
the Sistine Chapel in Rome,
00:18:24.30\00:18:26.94
which was named for him,
reigned in the 15th century.
00:18:26.97\00:18:32.41
He was also deeply
involved in the politics
00:18:32.44\00:18:34.91
of the Italian States,
00:18:34.94\00:18:37.21
and in 1476 he was
involved in a conspiracy
00:18:37.25\00:18:40.85
to assassinate an Italian
statesman and his brother,
00:18:40.88\00:18:44.75
whose family at the time were
rulers in the city of Florence.
00:18:44.79\00:18:48.72
Other popes such as Alexander
the Sixth and Julius the Second
00:18:48.76\00:18:52.19
kept mistresses and
fathered illegitimate sons,
00:18:52.23\00:18:55.73
and even maneuvered
these illegitimate sons
00:18:55.76\00:18:57.97
into positions of influence.
00:18:58.00\00:19:00.14
[Crowd noises]
00:19:00.17\00:19:05.24
Of course they weren't all bad,
00:19:13.35\00:19:14.98
and you can't judge
an entire organization
00:19:15.02\00:19:17.02
by a few rotten eggs.
00:19:17.05\00:19:19.75
But it was a system
that dictated to countries,
00:19:19.79\00:19:21.99
manipulated states,
00:19:22.02\00:19:24.13
and believed that the line
separating church and state
00:19:24.16\00:19:27.10
should simply disappear.
00:19:27.13\00:19:29.76
And it helps us to
understand why the Reformation
00:19:29.80\00:19:32.13
should take place at all.
00:19:32.17\00:19:34.34
The system was simply broken.
00:19:34.37\00:19:37.34
In time, the
papacy got to the place
00:19:37.37\00:19:39.07
where tradition had
authority over Scripture.
00:19:39.11\00:19:42.71
Pope Innocent III, who
ruled between 1198 and 1216,
00:19:42.74\00:19:46.75
and was the most powerful
of all of the medieval popes,
00:19:46.78\00:19:49.82
had this to say
about his spiritual role:
00:19:49.85\00:19:53.25
"The successor of
Peter is the Vicar of Christ;
00:19:53.29\00:19:56.93
he has been established as a
mediator between God and man,
00:19:56.96\00:20:00.86
below God but beyond man,
00:20:00.90\00:20:03.26
less than God but more than man,
00:20:03.30\00:20:06.37
who shall judge all
and be judged by no one."
00:20:06.40\00:20:10.74
And the church had
tools at its disposal
00:20:10.77\00:20:12.97
to strike fear into
the heart of people,
00:20:13.01\00:20:15.61
of people who were
largely ignorant and,
00:20:15.64\00:20:18.28
when it came to the scriptures,
completely illiterate.
00:20:18.31\00:20:22.05
The sentence of interdict,
00:20:22.08\00:20:23.75
a sort of censure the
church placed upon dissenters,
00:20:23.79\00:20:26.96
meant that sins
couldn't be forgiven,
00:20:26.99\00:20:29.59
the sacraments
couldn't be dispensed,
00:20:29.62\00:20:31.36
prayers for the
dead couldn't be heard.
00:20:31.39\00:20:33.80
Essentially, heaven
was cut off for people
00:20:33.83\00:20:36.87
who were living
in the affected area.
00:20:36.90\00:20:38.93
And when you consider that the
church is the doorway to heaven,
00:20:38.97\00:20:41.90
well, when the church
goes ahead and shuts that door,
00:20:41.94\00:20:45.84
you can imagine.
00:20:45.87\00:20:47.08
During the
reign of Innocent III,
00:20:47.11\00:20:48.68
the nation of France
was placed under interdict
00:20:48.71\00:20:51.58
as the pope tried
to persuade the king
00:20:51.61\00:20:54.65
to take back his estranged wife.
00:20:54.68\00:20:56.99
During the 1400s,
the city of Prague,
00:20:57.02\00:20:59.82
in what was then Bohemia
and is now the Czech Republic,
00:20:59.85\00:21:02.89
suffered a similar fate during
the ministry of John Huss.
00:21:02.92\00:21:06.70
[Sound of water]
00:21:06.73\00:21:10.43
And it got much
worse than interdict.
00:21:12.90\00:21:15.54
Anyone living in the
world dominated by the church
00:21:15.57\00:21:18.34
in the Middle Ages had to
deal with some grim realities.
00:21:18.37\00:21:22.74
Under the
influence of Saint Augustine,
00:21:22.78\00:21:25.05
the church accepted the
theory that humanity's willpower
00:21:25.08\00:21:28.38
was so depraved that the
use of force against heretics
00:21:28.42\00:21:32.99
and sinners was
sometimes necessary.
00:21:33.02\00:21:36.73
As a result, the medieval church
resorted to some of the most
00:21:36.76\00:21:40.36
brutal tactics ever
seen in history as a means of
00:21:40.40\00:21:43.33
controlling the
consciences of God's people.
00:21:43.37\00:21:46.10
Christians
during these centuries
00:21:46.13\00:21:47.67
were burned at the stake,
00:21:47.70\00:21:49.44
tortured on the rack,
00:21:49.47\00:21:51.47
and a whole lot more,
all in the name of God.
00:21:51.51\00:21:55.68
¤[Music]¤
00:21:55.71\00:22:00.78
One historian wrote,
00:22:03.08\00:22:04.72
“Compared with the
persecution of heresy in Europe
00:22:04.75\00:22:07.49
from 1227 to 1492,
00:22:07.52\00:22:10.79
the persecution of
Christians by Romans
00:22:10.83\00:22:12.89
in the first three
centuries after Christ
00:22:12.93\00:22:15.66
was a mild and humane procedure.
00:22:15.70\00:22:19.40
Making every allowance
required of an historian
00:22:19.43\00:22:22.44
and permitted to a Christian,
we must rank the Inquisition,
00:22:22.47\00:22:26.44
along with the wars and
persecutions of our time,
00:22:26.47\00:22:29.48
as among the darkest
blots on the record of mankind,
00:22:29.51\00:22:33.01
revealing a ferocity
unknown in any beast.”
00:22:33.05\00:22:37.25
¤[Music]¤
00:22:37.29\00:22:38.45
So you can understand why
Wycliffe spoke out in England,
00:22:38.49\00:22:41.76
and why John Huss protested
in what we know today to be
00:22:41.79\00:22:44.59
the Czech Republic,
00:22:44.63\00:22:46.13
why Calvin rose up in Geneva
00:22:46.16\00:22:48.26
and Knox in Scotland
00:22:48.30\00:22:49.70
and Zwingli in Zurich.
00:22:49.73\00:22:51.50
The church was
broken, abusing its power,
00:22:51.53\00:22:55.47
choking off the
Scriptures from the people,
00:22:55.50\00:22:57.77
and teaching
falsehood in the place of truth.
00:22:57.81\00:23:00.81
Of course, church leaders today
don't speak in quite the same
00:23:03.01\00:23:05.95
tone as Pope Innocent
III did all those years ago.
00:23:05.98\00:23:09.72
But Rome still takes a
hard line on how its teachings
00:23:09.75\00:23:12.75
are to be evaluated,
00:23:12.79\00:23:14.02
maintaining it holds a unique
place among Christian faiths.
00:23:14.06\00:23:18.46
In 1997,
Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger,
00:23:18.49\00:23:21.36
who went on to
become Pope Benedict XVI,
00:23:21.40\00:23:24.27
said that the use of Scripture
to evaluate Church teaching
00:23:24.30\00:23:27.84
“was one of the
most dangerous currents
00:23:27.87\00:23:30.31
to flow out of the
Vatican II Council.”
00:23:30.34\00:23:34.21
So what do you do
when you're a church leader
00:23:34.24\00:23:37.05
and you discover that there
are inconsistencies between
00:23:37.08\00:23:39.88
what the Bible
teaches and what you hold to
00:23:39.91\00:23:42.72
be true as an organization?
00:23:42.75\00:23:44.79
Problem, or not?
00:23:44.82\00:23:46.79
We'll find out in just a moment.
00:23:46.82\00:23:49.36
¤[Music]¤
00:23:49.39\00:23:54.76
>>Announcer: In Matthew
4:4, the Word of God says,
00:23:57.40\00:24:00.14
"It is written, 'Man
shall not live by bread alone,
00:24:00.17\00:24:03.34
but by every word that proceeds
from the mouth of God.'"
00:24:03.37\00:24:07.08
“Every Word”
00:24:07.11\00:24:08.04
is a one-minute,
Bible-based daily devotional
00:24:08.08\00:24:10.31
presented by
Pastor John Bradshaw,
00:24:10.35\00:24:12.05
and designed especially
for busy people like you.
00:24:12.08\00:24:15.18
Look for Every Word
on selected networks,
00:24:15.22\00:24:17.92
or watch it online
every day on our website,
00:24:17.95\00:24:20.42
ItIsWritten.com.
00:24:20.46\00:24:22.79
Receive a daily spiritual boost.
00:24:22.82\00:24:24.89
Watch “Every Word.”
00:24:24.93\00:24:25.86
You'll be glad you did.
00:24:25.89\00:24:27.86
Here's a sample.
00:24:27.86\00:24:30.63
¤[Theme music]¤
00:24:31.33\00:24:36.57
>>John: Five hundred years
after the Protestant Reformation
00:24:36.60\00:24:38.81
began on October 31, 1517,
00:24:38.84\00:24:42.08
we might be tempted to
wonder what Luther and Knox
00:24:42.11\00:24:44.18
and Zwingli and Calvin
00:24:44.21\00:24:45.05
and Farel and
Beza and the Huguenots
00:24:45.08\00:24:46.65
and the Anabaptists and
so many others achieved.
00:24:46.68\00:24:50.42
Today it would seem
that the protest is over.
00:24:50.45\00:24:52.62
Even though the most
influential church in the world
00:24:52.65\00:24:55.22
offers indulgences,
00:24:55.26\00:24:56.36
hears confessions,
00:24:56.39\00:24:57.33
teaches justification
by faith and works,
00:24:57.36\00:25:00.16
considers Mary
the queen of Heaven,
00:25:00.20\00:25:02.53
where're the Protestants today?
00:25:02.56\00:25:04.33
Protestants are being welcomed
back into the church of Rome,
00:25:04.37\00:25:06.63
and many see this as positive.
00:25:06.67\00:25:08.17
It's been said
it's more important
00:25:08.20\00:25:10.74
to be divided by truth than
it is to be united by error.
00:25:10.77\00:25:14.61
Paul said in II
Timothy 4, verse 2,
00:25:14.64\00:25:17.05
“Preach the word;
be instant in season,
00:25:17.08\00:25:19.75
out of season; reprove, rebuke,
00:25:19.78\00:25:21.68
exhort with all long
suffering and doctrine.”
00:25:21.72\00:25:23.62
The Word.
00:25:23.65\00:25:24.65
Anything less will never do.
00:25:24.69\00:25:27.22
I'm John Bradshaw
for It Is Written.
00:25:27.26\00:25:28.66
Let's live today by every Word.
00:25:28.69\00:25:30.09
¤[Music]¤
00:25:30.13\00:25:34.10
>>John: By the
time of the Reformation,
00:25:34.10\00:25:35.80
the church of
Rome had become by far
00:25:35.83\00:25:38.40
not only the most
powerful church on the planet,
00:25:38.43\00:25:41.64
but also the most
powerful political entity.
00:25:41.67\00:25:44.51
And that happened as
Rome filled a vacuum left
00:25:44.54\00:25:47.14
by the failed Roman Empire.
00:25:47.18\00:25:49.31
It was basically
thrust into that role.
00:25:49.34\00:25:51.08
That could have been
a wonderful opportunity
00:25:51.11\00:25:53.72
for church leaders to elevate
the gospel and the message
00:25:53.75\00:25:56.89
of Christ's righteousness
and grace and mercy.
00:25:56.92\00:26:02.12
But traditions
started coming into the church
00:26:02.16\00:26:04.43
a lot like a rising
tide creeping up a beach.
00:26:04.46\00:26:07.56
One of the unique teachings that
the Reformers were up against
00:26:07.60\00:26:10.93
was that of the Magisterium,
00:26:10.97\00:26:12.33
the “teaching
office” of the church,
00:26:12.37\00:26:14.80
the church's ability to decide
what's true and what is not.
00:26:14.84\00:26:19.17
It's said that
Jesus Christ is the source
00:26:19.21\00:26:22.84
of all of the
church's teachings,
00:26:22.88\00:26:24.21
but that those teachings
rest upon Scripture AND
00:26:24.25\00:26:28.72
“sacred tradition.”
00:26:28.75\00:26:30.05
In other words,
00:26:30.09\00:26:31.25
our traditions provide us
with a source of unerring truth,
00:26:31.29\00:26:34.19
and we know that to be
true because we say it is true.
00:26:34.22\00:26:39.49
And we can say it's
true because God has given us
00:26:39.53\00:26:42.06
the authority to do that.
00:26:42.10\00:26:43.37
And we know He's given us that
authority because we say so.
00:26:43.40\00:26:49.20
¤[Music]¤
00:26:49.24\00:26:58.05
The teachings of the
Magisterium are said to be
00:26:58.08\00:27:00.42
“the prime, God-given
means of finding the truth.”
00:27:00.45\00:27:04.82
But appealing to the
Bible as your authority
00:27:04.85\00:27:08.09
only gets you
someplace if people accept
00:27:08.12\00:27:11.23
that the Bible is authoritative.
00:27:11.26\00:27:13.83
Now, do the
teachings of the church
00:27:13.86\00:27:15.16
ever contradict the
teachings of the Bible?
00:27:15.20\00:27:17.67
Yes, at times they do.
00:27:17.70\00:27:19.77
But that's okay, because
the church says it's okay.
00:27:19.80\00:27:25.04
Even Pope John Paul II admitted
00:27:25.07\00:27:26.78
that he was contradicting
the teachings of Jesus.
00:27:26.81\00:27:31.11
"Have no fear when people
call me the Vicar of Christ,
00:27:31.15\00:27:34.92
when they say
to me 'Holy Father'
00:27:34.95\00:27:37.12
or 'Your Holiness,'
00:27:37.15\00:27:38.62
or use terms similar to these,
00:27:38.65\00:27:40.82
which seem even
inimical to the gospel.
00:27:40.86\00:27:44.03
Christ Himself declared,
00:27:44.06\00:27:46.09
'Call no one on
earth your father;
00:27:46.13\00:27:48.63
you have but one
father in heaven.
00:27:48.66\00:27:50.80
Do not be called Master;
00:27:50.83\00:27:52.60
you have but one Master,
the Messiah' (Matthew 23:9-10).
00:27:52.63\00:27:57.57
These expressions, nevertheless,
00:27:57.61\00:27:59.17
have evolved out
of a long tradition,
00:27:59.21\00:28:02.01
becoming part of common usage.
00:28:02.04\00:28:04.75
One must not be afraid
of these words either.”
00:28:04.78\00:28:08.95
Modern popes have also made it
clear that people must confess
00:28:08.98\00:28:12.75
their sins to a priest to
receive God's forgiveness.
00:28:12.79\00:28:17.16
“Rebuffing a belief
widely shared by Protestants
00:28:18.33\00:28:21.33
and a growing
number of Roman Catholics,
00:28:21.36\00:28:23.10
Pope John Paul II on
Tuesday dismissed the
00:28:23.13\00:28:26.97
'widespread idea that
one can obtain forgiveness
00:28:27.00\00:28:30.24
directly from God,'
00:28:30.27\00:28:32.07
and exhorted
Catholics to confess more often
00:28:32.11\00:28:34.88
to their priests.”
00:28:34.91\00:28:37.01
The Apostle John wrote,
00:28:37.05\00:28:38.28
“If we confess our sins,
00:28:38.31\00:28:40.35
He is faithful and
just to forgive us our sins
00:28:40.38\00:28:44.19
and to cleanse us
from all unrighteousness.”
00:28:44.22\00:28:49.69
And the Reformers knew that,
00:28:49.72\00:28:51.99
and were determined that people
could find forgiveness in Christ
00:28:52.03\00:28:55.76
rather than through a
church and its sacraments.
00:28:55.80\00:28:59.23
One of the practices
that spurred Martin Luther
00:28:59.27\00:29:01.90
to write his 95 theses was
the selling of indulgences.
00:29:01.94\00:29:06.44
But even though the
selling of indulgences
00:29:06.47\00:29:08.04
virtually
kick-started the Reformation,
00:29:08.08\00:29:10.71
things haven't changed.
00:29:10.75\00:29:12.65
"Pope John Paul II
announced yesterday
00:29:12.68\00:29:14.85
that throughout the
millennium celebration,
00:29:14.88\00:29:17.22
penitents who do a charitable
deed or give up cigarettes
00:29:17.25\00:29:20.79
or alcohol for a day
can earn an 'indulgence'
00:29:20.82\00:29:24.69
that will
eliminate time in purgatory."
00:29:24.73\00:29:27.40
This was reported
in the New York Times:
00:29:27.40\00:29:30.47
“In recent months
dioceses around the world
00:29:30.50\00:29:33.30
have been offering
Catholics a spiritual benefit
00:29:33.34\00:29:35.77
that fell out of favor
decades ago, the indulgence,
00:29:35.80\00:29:40.04
a sort of amnesty from
punishment in the afterlife,
00:29:40.08\00:29:43.24
and reminding them
of the church's clout
00:29:43.28\00:29:45.51
in mitigating the wages of sin.
00:29:45.55\00:29:48.45
“The fact that many Catholics
under 50 have never sought one,
00:29:48.48\00:29:51.75
and never heard of indulgences
00:29:51.79\00:29:53.25
except in high
school European history
00:29:53.29\00:29:55.76
(Martin Luther denounced
the selling of them in 1517
00:29:55.79\00:29:59.63
while igniting the
Protestant Reformation),
00:29:59.66\00:30:02.36
simply makes their
reintroduction more urgent
00:30:02.40\00:30:05.30
among church leaders bent
on restoring fading traditions
00:30:05.33\00:30:09.00
of penance in what they
see as a self-satisfied world.”
00:30:09.04\00:30:13.24
So the issues that were raised
by the Protestant Reformers
00:30:15.31\00:30:19.05
still exist today,
00:30:19.08\00:30:21.02
emphasized by a headline
that appeared on the front page
00:30:21.05\00:30:23.89
of the Los Angeles
Times back in the year 2000:
00:30:23.92\00:30:27.79
"Vatican Declares Catholicism
Sole Path to Salvation."
00:30:27.82\00:30:33.53
The Secretary of the
World Council of Churches
00:30:33.56\00:30:35.70
at the time said
this in response:
00:30:35.73\00:30:38.23
“It's realistic to acknowledge
that this is the official
00:30:38.27\00:30:40.70
Catholic position and we
cannot simply wish it away.”
00:30:40.74\00:30:45.07
Men like John Huss and his
colleague Jerome in Bohemia,
00:30:45.11\00:30:48.58
Louis de Berquin in France,
00:30:48.61\00:30:50.65
William Tyndale of England,
00:30:50.68\00:30:52.38
Ridley,
00:30:52.41\00:30:53.18
Latimer and Cranmer in England,
00:30:53.21\00:30:54.98
Patrick Hamilton and
George Wishart in Scotland,
00:30:55.02\00:30:57.15
and millions of
others during those dark,
00:30:57.19\00:30:59.49
blood-stained
centuries, gave their lives,
00:30:59.52\00:31:02.52
in the words of
the apostle John,
00:31:02.56\00:31:04.69
“for the Word of God and for
the testimony of Jesus Christ”
00:31:04.73\00:31:08.36
(Revelation. 1:2).
00:31:08.40\00:31:11.13
There's a remarkable story
told about a Dutch Anabaptist
00:31:11.17\00:31:13.94
named Dirk Willems,
00:31:13.97\00:31:16.04
who was condemned
to die by the church
00:31:16.07\00:31:18.34
for refusing to adhere
to the church's teachings,
00:31:18.37\00:31:20.84
specifically on infant baptism.
00:31:20.88\00:31:23.91
But Willems managed to escape
from where he was being held,
00:31:23.95\00:31:27.38
and he crept across the
frozen ice covering a moat.
00:31:27.42\00:31:31.19
A prison guard noticed what was
going on and pursued Willems,
00:31:31.22\00:31:34.79
but he fell through that
thin ice into the frigid waters.
00:31:34.82\00:31:38.93
He cried help for help.
00:31:38.96\00:31:40.10
There was nobody to help him
00:31:40.13\00:31:41.70
except for the
escaping Dirk Willems,
00:31:41.73\00:31:44.30
who did not want
to see the man perish.
00:31:44.33\00:31:47.47
He went back
and rescued the man,
00:31:47.50\00:31:49.10
but he paid a high
price for his bravery.
00:31:49.14\00:31:54.04
He was recaptured,
00:31:54.08\00:31:55.81
put in prison again,
00:31:55.84\00:31:57.68
and was burned at
the stake by the church.
00:31:57.71\00:32:01.12
See, these great
men and women of faith
00:32:01.15\00:32:03.39
believed the words of Jesus
found in Revelation 2, verse 10,
00:32:03.42\00:32:06.55
where Jesus said,
00:32:06.59\00:32:07.52
“Be faithful unto death,
00:32:07.56\00:32:10.26
and I will give
you the crown of life.”
00:32:10.29\00:32:12.29
This was the world into which
00:32:15.86\00:32:17.40
the Protestant
Reformers were born.
00:32:17.43\00:32:19.43
They rose up to
oppose something God
00:32:21.50\00:32:23.41
had never
intended would be created:
00:32:23.44\00:32:25.84
a system of salvation
based on works and not grace,
00:32:25.87\00:32:30.85
where the only
freedom believers had was that
00:32:30.88\00:32:33.08
given them by the church.
00:32:33.11\00:32:34.68
A powerful system that,
00:32:34.72\00:32:37.45
believing it was
doing the work of God,
00:32:37.49\00:32:39.45
was prepared to use
force to get its way.
00:32:39.49\00:32:43.59
But the dark clouds that
held back the light of truth,
00:32:45.96\00:32:48.56
the unholy alliance
of church and state,
00:32:48.60\00:32:53.10
couldn't endure forever.
00:32:53.13\00:32:55.67
The corruption and cruelty
of the Renaissance church
00:32:55.70\00:32:58.57
was like the
hour before the dawn.
00:32:58.61\00:33:01.98
The morning sun would
soon drive away the darkness.
00:33:02.01\00:33:05.18
Grace and truth
would break forth.
00:33:07.45\00:33:10.12
¤[Music]¤
00:33:10.15\00:33:14.32
In Old Testament times,
00:33:14.36\00:33:15.62
God's people
suffered for many years
00:33:15.66\00:33:17.63
under the heavy
hand of Egyptian slavery.
00:33:17.66\00:33:21.13
But then there was a
miraculous breakthrough,
00:33:21.16\00:33:23.40
and God delivered His people,
00:33:23.43\00:33:24.80
opening up the Red Sea
00:33:24.83\00:33:27.10
and guiding them
to the Promised Land.
00:33:27.14\00:33:29.14
Well, there would be a
miraculous breakthrough again.
00:33:30.97\00:33:33.44
The light of God's
Word was going to shine.
00:33:33.48\00:33:35.94
God's plans would
not be frustrated.
00:33:35.98\00:33:39.21
A new day would dawn
for believers everywhere.
00:33:39.25\00:33:42.05
God's work was not done.
00:33:42.08\00:33:44.52
Great days were ahead.
00:33:44.55\00:33:45.79
¤[Music]¤
00:33:45.82\00:33:51.73
>>John: Who is the
mystery beast of Revelation?
00:33:53.23\00:33:55.73
The Book of Revelation
speaks of a power of tremendous
00:33:55.76\00:33:58.03
religious and political
significance that will rise up
00:33:58.07\00:34:01.20
in Earth's last days.
00:34:01.24\00:34:03.27
Find out who it is by
receiving this free offer,
00:34:03.30\00:34:06.04
“The Mystery
Beast of Revelation.”
00:34:06.07\00:34:08.68
Call us on 800-253-3000,
00:34:08.71\00:34:11.85
or visit us online
at itiswritten.com.
00:34:11.88\00:34:15.62
Or you can write to
the address on your screen.
00:34:15.65\00:34:18.39
I'd like you to
receive our free offer,
00:34:18.42\00:34:20.66
“The Mystery
Beast of Revelation.”
00:34:20.69\00:34:23.19
>>John: Thank you for
remembering that It Is Written
00:34:23.22\00:34:24.99
exists due to the gracious
support of people like you.
00:34:25.03\00:34:29.23
It's your support that makes
it possible for It Is Written
00:34:29.26\00:34:31.47
to share Jesus and the
great truths of the Bible
00:34:31.50\00:34:34.70
with the world.
00:34:34.74\00:34:36.27
You can send your
tax-deductible gift
00:34:36.30\00:34:38.07
to the address on your screen,
00:34:38.11\00:34:39.91
or you can support It Is
Written through our website,
00:34:39.94\00:34:42.11
itiswritten.com.
00:34:42.14\00:34:45.01
Thanks for your
generous support.
00:34:45.05\00:34:46.48
Our number is 800-253-3000,
00:34:46.51\00:34:49.85
and our web address is
00:34:49.88\00:34:50.85
itiswritten.com.
00:34:50.89\00:34:52.72
>>John: Welcome back to 500,
brought to you by It Is Written.
00:34:53.89\00:34:56.96
I'm John Bradshaw.
00:34:56.99\00:34:58.56
And my guest for
“Rome and the Reformation”
00:34:58.59\00:35:01.56
is a professor of Near-Eastern
and Archaeological Studies at
00:35:01.60\00:35:04.50
Southern Adventist
University, Dr. Michael Hasel.
00:35:04.53\00:35:06.77
Dr. Hasel,
thanks for joining me.
00:35:06.80\00:35:08.10
>>Dr. Hasel: It's
great to be with you.
00:35:08.14\00:35:09.44
>>John: So Rome
and the Reformation.
00:35:09.47\00:35:10.81
Without the Roman
Catholic Church, of course,
00:35:10.84\00:35:12.71
there'd be no object
to reform or of reform.
00:35:12.74\00:35:16.54
What was the Roman
Catholic Church like
00:35:16.58\00:35:19.45
in Martin Luther's day?
00:35:19.48\00:35:20.48
How would you describe it?
00:35:20.52\00:35:22.22
>>Dr. Hasel: It was powerful.
00:35:22.25\00:35:23.35
It, uh, was not only
powerful religiously,
00:35:23.39\00:35:27.16
but temporally in terms of its
power over Europe and over the,
00:35:27.19\00:35:32.89
the, political sphere
in that part of the world.
00:35:32.93\00:35:35.63
So it, it, put in place
kings, it took kings down.
00:35:35.66\00:35:40.87
Um, it was not only a
church that encompassed
00:35:40.90\00:35:44.77
all of Europe and
other parts of the world,
00:35:44.81\00:35:47.08
but in that time it was
an entity that really shaped
00:35:47.11\00:35:52.38
the destiny and the future
of Europe in so many ways.
00:35:52.41\00:35:54.98
>>John: How did
the church impact,
00:35:55.02\00:35:56.89
let's say, the
daily lives of people.
00:35:56.92\00:35:58.92
If you were a citizen of, well,
00:35:58.95\00:36:00.96
in Rome or someplace within the
boundaries of the Roman Empire,
00:36:00.99\00:36:05.89
uh, in a
nuts-and-bolts sort of a way,
00:36:05.93\00:36:10.10
how was the average person
really impacted by, by Rome?
00:36:10.13\00:36:14.37
>>Dr. Hasel: Well,
the individual person
00:36:14.40\00:36:18.34
would have been very
affected because salvation
00:36:18.37\00:36:20.91
was through the church.
00:36:20.94\00:36:22.31
And so, depending on
where you were in society,
00:36:22.34\00:36:26.61
at all levels of society,
00:36:26.65\00:36:28.72
um, the church had
a huge role to play,
00:36:28.75\00:36:31.39
not only in the
political sphere,
00:36:31.42\00:36:33.62
but also in the personal sphere.
00:36:33.66\00:36:35.46
If a person, um, wanted
to be buried, for example,
00:36:35.49\00:36:39.66
after death, where
would they be buried?
00:36:39.69\00:36:41.30
They would be buried in
the, in the church cemetery.
00:36:41.33\00:36:43.37
If somehow that person
was not able to be buried
00:36:43.40\00:36:46.03
in the church cemetery because
of something he did or she did,
00:36:46.07\00:36:49.64
um, that was the same as not
being able to, to attain heaven.
00:36:49.67\00:36:55.74
So this was a
really serious situation
00:36:55.78\00:36:58.25
where the church not only,
um, controlled politically,
00:36:58.28\00:37:02.12
but really controlled
the destiny of individuals,
00:37:02.15\00:37:04.92
and, in a sense,
00:37:04.95\00:37:06.76
held that over
individuals as well,
00:37:06.79\00:37:08.86
could hold that power
over individuals as well.
00:37:08.89\00:37:10.96
And did, very effectively,
to kings and to others who,
00:37:10.99\00:37:14.73
who wanted to maybe go
in a different direction.
00:37:14.73\00:37:16.46
>>John: For a Christian today,
00:37:16.50\00:37:17.93
that, it seems to me
that's hard to imagine,
00:37:17.97\00:37:20.77
particularly for a Protestant.
00:37:20.80\00:37:22.37
I think for a non-Christian,
00:37:22.40\00:37:23.54
perhaps that idea
is probably repulsive.
00:37:23.57\00:37:25.64
It's hard to imagine
for most people today
00:37:25.67\00:37:29.14
a church being that powerful:
00:37:29.18\00:37:30.88
to set up kings
and to take them down,
00:37:30.91\00:37:32.98
and to essentially,
00:37:33.01\00:37:35.35
um, possess the keys
to heaven for you and me.
00:37:35.38\00:37:38.59
How did the Roman
church get to that point?
00:37:38.62\00:37:42.62
>>Dr. Hasel: Um, a
long process, of course.
00:37:42.66\00:37:45.89
The church began, of course,
within the first century,
00:37:45.93\00:37:49.13
the second
century, the third century,
00:37:49.16\00:37:50.67
with various, uh cities and
eventually there were bishops
00:37:50.70\00:37:54.70
that were placed in
charge of these cities,
00:37:54.74\00:37:56.50
leaders that
would lead those cities.
00:37:56.54\00:37:58.71
Uh, when Constantine came
to power in the fourth century,
00:37:58.74\00:38:01.88
he moved the capital of the
Roman Empire to Constantinople,
00:38:01.91\00:38:05.28
to what is today
Istanbul, the eastern church.
00:38:05.31\00:38:08.08
So you have a division,
00:38:08.12\00:38:09.08
then, eventually,
between the eastern church
00:38:09.12\00:38:10.82
and the western church.
00:38:10.85\00:38:12.22
And that movement
of power to the east,
00:38:12.25\00:38:15.82
uh, caused the
western church, or Rome,
00:38:15.86\00:38:18.26
to become more powerful.
00:38:18.29\00:38:20.03
The bishop of Rome there
became more and more powerful.
00:38:20.06\00:38:24.43
And with time, uh,
that, that continued
00:38:24.47\00:38:28.04
to have an influence in Europe,
00:38:28.07\00:38:30.84
uh, in the succeeding
centuries, because, of course,
00:38:30.87\00:38:33.11
Constantinople eventually fell.
00:38:33.14\00:38:35.21
Byzantium fell,
uh, to the Turks,
00:38:35.24\00:38:38.18
and to the Ottoman Empire
and others that came along.
00:38:38.21\00:38:41.35
And so you had this vacuum
00:38:41.38\00:38:43.32
and the papacy
generally rose to power.
00:38:43.35\00:38:46.99
Uh, and that brought
together in time both a,
00:38:47.02\00:38:51.06
a temporal power
that is a worldly power,
00:38:51.09\00:38:56.13
a political power,
and a religious power
00:38:56.16\00:38:58.80
that began to work
in unison together.
00:38:58.83\00:39:01.04
>>John: For any government
to have power, though,
00:39:01.07\00:39:03.07
that power has to be
ceded to them or granted them
00:39:03.10\00:39:05.44
by the people.
00:39:05.47\00:39:06.88
>>Dr. Hasel: Sure.
00:39:06.91\00:39:07.81
>>John: No one's
in power without vote.
00:39:07.84\00:39:09.81
And it's not that
people voted back then, but,
00:39:09.84\00:39:12.68
but you have power
if you have influence.
00:39:12.71\00:39:16.05
So what went on in
the minds of the people,
00:39:16.08\00:39:18.99
that people said, yes,
00:39:19.02\00:39:21.72
Rome does have
the keys to heaven.
00:39:21.76\00:39:23.93
Yes, my salvation
does depend on a church.
00:39:23.96\00:39:28.66
Yes, they can lock me
out of the church cemetery
00:39:28.70\00:39:32.00
and therefore out of heaven.
00:39:32.03\00:39:33.60
How do you think
that process evolved
00:39:33.64\00:39:36.40
in the thinking of
people, that masses said,
00:39:36.44\00:39:40.81
we agree, we go along with this,
we believe that this is so?
00:39:40.84\00:39:46.61
>>Dr. Hasel: I think
it was a combination of
00:39:46.65\00:39:48.62
the growth of the church,
00:39:48.65\00:39:50.59
the power of the church,
00:39:50.62\00:39:51.72
but also the enforcing of
that power in, in many ways.
00:39:51.75\00:39:55.02
Um, when you have temporal
and religious power combined,
00:39:55.06\00:39:58.23
today in this country we have a
separation of church and state,
00:39:58.26\00:40:00.93
but in that time
that was not the case,
00:40:00.96\00:40:03.37
you have also the ability
for the church to enforce itself
00:40:03.40\00:40:06.74
and to enforce its influence
and power, even militarily.
00:40:06.77\00:40:10.71
And so, uh, it was,
um, it was very difficult
00:40:10.74\00:40:14.54
for kings to move off
in different directions,
00:40:14.58\00:40:17.08
or people to move off
in different directions,
00:40:17.11\00:40:18.95
when you have
that kind of, of power
00:40:18.98\00:40:23.45
all
concentrated into one entity,
00:40:23.49\00:40:26.15
that combined both the
religious and the political.
00:40:26.19\00:40:28.26
>>John: And Rome did
enforce its dogmas, didn't it?
00:40:28.29\00:40:30.73
>>Dr. Hasel: Oh,
it did. Militarily.
00:40:30.76\00:40:32.09
I mean, we have,
we have, of course,
00:40:32.13\00:40:33.83
the famous Crusades that
still taint Christianity today,
00:40:33.86\00:40:36.77
when people think about
the bloodbath that took place
00:40:36.80\00:40:39.70
in the Middle East and,
00:40:39.73\00:40:40.77
and the situations
that took place there.
00:40:40.80\00:40:42.87
So we have this,
this entire system,
00:40:42.90\00:40:46.51
and this system included, um,
00:40:46.54\00:40:49.38
sending armies to
other parts of the world,
00:40:49.41\00:40:52.08
to conquer those
parts of the world
00:40:52.11\00:40:53.55
in the name of Christendom,
00:40:53.58\00:40:54.98
and in the name
of the power of God.
00:40:55.02\00:40:57.59
And this, this
began to, to, of course,
00:40:57.62\00:41:01.76
shape the
thinking of people as well,
00:41:01.79\00:41:04.43
who were involved
in those, uh, Crusades,
00:41:04.46\00:41:06.73
but also how that affected them
in their personal lives as well.
00:41:06.76\00:41:11.07
>>John: So what
was the church like
00:41:11.10\00:41:12.93
that Martin
Luther was a part of?
00:41:12.97\00:41:15.07
I mean, what did it
look like from where,
00:41:15.10\00:41:17.41
where he found himself?
00:41:17.44\00:41:18.54
What was going on?
00:41:18.57\00:41:19.77
>>Dr. Hasel: Well, you're,
you're in a feudal system,
00:41:19.81\00:41:23.21
and so you have
in the Middle Ages,
00:41:23.24\00:41:25.21
you have a
system where you have,
00:41:25.25\00:41:26.85
uh, the church,
which is very powerful.
00:41:26.88\00:41:28.48
You have these expensive
churches that are built,
00:41:28.52\00:41:30.55
these cathedrals that
take a hundred years to build,
00:41:30.59\00:41:34.29
um, often on the
backs of the people.
00:41:34.32\00:41:38.46
You have people that are taxed.
00:41:38.49\00:41:40.26
You have various ways in
which those churches are built.
00:41:40.30\00:41:43.06
You have the indulgences,
00:41:43.10\00:41:44.40
and we'll talk about
that a little bit later on,
00:41:44.43\00:41:46.70
that fund many
of these projects.
00:41:46.74\00:41:49.04
And so you have this disparity
in society in the feudal system.
00:41:49.07\00:41:53.44
You have the peasants, um,
you have then various echelons.
00:41:53.48\00:41:58.45
You have the knights;
00:41:58.48\00:41:59.71
you have the feudal system all
the way up to princes and kings.
00:41:59.75\00:42:03.59
Uh, you have emperors.
00:42:03.62\00:42:04.82
And then you have the church,
which is behind the scenes,
00:42:04.85\00:42:07.39
also manipulating,
controlling, and trying to,
00:42:07.42\00:42:10.53
uh, have its say in
how these systems work,
00:42:10.56\00:42:13.40
and to influence its power, uh,
through these systems as well.
00:42:13.43\00:42:18.40
So it's, it's a time of poverty;
00:42:18.43\00:42:21.87
it's a time of great
wealth, on the other hand.
00:42:21.90\00:42:23.14
The disparity between
wealth and poverty is great.
00:42:23.17\00:42:26.57
And I think it was
something you, as a peasant,
00:42:26.61\00:42:30.61
you walk into one of
these immense cathedrals,
00:42:30.65\00:42:32.78
as we still do today,
and it was awe-inspiring,
00:42:32.81\00:42:35.18
and it gave the sense that
God was, was present there.
00:42:35.22\00:42:38.55
>>John: So what do you think
00:42:38.59\00:42:39.62
was going through
Martin Luther's mind?
00:42:39.65\00:42:41.19
He had the theses in one hand,
00:42:41.22\00:42:43.86
a hammer and a nail
presumably in the other.
00:42:43.89\00:42:45.96
He's walking down the street
00:42:45.99\00:42:48.53
towards the door
of the Castle church.
00:42:48.56\00:42:49.93
You can see it in
your mind's eye right now.
00:42:49.96\00:42:53.57
And this young priest is
coming up against the might
00:42:53.60\00:42:56.57
of the most powerful
church the world has ever seen.
00:42:56.60\00:42:59.07
Did he really think, I'm
going to change this church?
00:42:59.11\00:43:02.08
Or, what do you
think he was pondering?
00:43:02.11\00:43:05.88
>>Dr. Hasel: I think he
was probably thinking about
00:43:05.91\00:43:07.92
his own responsibilities as
a professor and as a minister
00:43:07.95\00:43:12.65
of the gospel in that
particular congregation.
00:43:12.69\00:43:15.49
And he saw what was
happening with Tetzel
00:43:15.52\00:43:18.83
going around and
selling these indulgences.
00:43:18.86\00:43:20.80
He saw people giving up precious
funds that they had to live on,
00:43:20.83\00:43:25.20
in order to, to, to spring
their relative out of purgatory,
00:43:25.23\00:43:30.27
something that he
didn't believe in any longer
00:43:30.31\00:43:32.21
based on his study of scripture.
00:43:32.24\00:43:33.84
And so he wanted to warn them,
00:43:33.88\00:43:36.88
this is not,
this is not biblical.
00:43:36.91\00:43:38.75
This is not, this is
not something that is based
00:43:38.78\00:43:41.45
on a biblical teaching.
00:43:41.48\00:43:42.92
And so I think much of what
was going through his mind was,
00:43:42.95\00:43:45.72
let, let me set the record
straight here for the people
00:43:45.75\00:43:48.46
of this community.
00:43:48.49\00:43:49.72
I don't think he had an idea
that it would have the impact
00:43:49.76\00:43:53.60
that it would have
as that was published
00:43:53.63\00:43:55.73
and disseminated
throughout Germany.
00:43:55.76\00:43:57.73
>>John: It speaks, I
think, and this sounds unkind,
00:43:57.77\00:43:59.90
but if I can at
least try to sound kind,
00:43:59.93\00:44:03.27
it speaks to the
arrogance of the church.
00:44:03.30\00:44:04.97
The church that
says we are so powerful
00:44:05.01\00:44:07.61
that if you give us money,
00:44:07.64\00:44:08.64
we have enough
authority and influence
00:44:08.68\00:44:11.15
to get your soul
out of purgatory,
00:44:11.18\00:44:13.25
or someone else's
soul out of purgatory.
00:44:13.28\00:44:15.38
Incidentally, a place
that doesn't even exist.
00:44:15.42\00:44:18.69
So Luther came up
against a church that had,
00:44:18.72\00:44:21.22
that had teachings that spoke
of the fact that the church
00:44:21.26\00:44:25.33
had wandered far from the Bible.
00:44:25.36\00:44:28.40
In just a moment,
00:44:28.43\00:44:29.63
we'll look at some more of
the teachings of the church
00:44:29.66\00:44:31.17
in that day,
00:44:31.20\00:44:32.20
and the teachings of
the Church of Rome today.
00:44:32.23\00:44:34.40
We'll be right back.
00:44:34.44\00:44:35.07
¤[Music]¤
00:44:35.10\00:44:41.08
>>John: I'm John
Bradshaw from It Is Written,
00:44:42.24\00:44:44.45
inviting you to join me for 500,
00:44:44.48\00:44:48.12
nine programs
produced by it Is Written
00:44:48.15\00:44:50.42
taking you deep
into the Reformation.
00:44:50.45\00:44:53.56
This is the 500th anniversary
00:44:53.59\00:44:56.02
of the beginning
of the Reformation,
00:44:56.06\00:44:57.73
when Martin Luther
nailed his 95 theses to the door
00:44:57.76\00:45:00.73
of the Castle church
in Wittenberg, Germany.
00:45:00.76\00:45:03.20
We'll take you to Wittenberg,
00:45:03.23\00:45:04.67
and to Belgium,
00:45:04.70\00:45:05.43
to England,
00:45:05.47\00:45:06.27
to Ireland,
00:45:06.30\00:45:07.80
to Rome,
00:45:07.84\00:45:08.64
to the Vatican City,
00:45:08.67\00:45:09.87
and introduce you to the people
who created the Reformation,
00:45:09.90\00:45:12.91
who pushed the
Reformation forward.
00:45:12.94\00:45:14.91
We'll take you to
sites all throughout Europe
00:45:14.94\00:45:16.85
where the reformers
lived and, in some cases, died.
00:45:16.88\00:45:19.71
We'll bring you
back to the United States
00:45:19.75\00:45:21.35
and take you to a little
farm in upstate New York,
00:45:21.38\00:45:24.39
and show you how God
spread the Reformation here.
00:45:24.42\00:45:27.32
Don't miss 500.
00:45:27.36\00:45:29.39
You can own the
500 series on DVD.
00:45:29.42\00:45:32.36
Call us on 888-664-5573,
00:45:32.39\00:45:37.00
or visit us online
at itiswritten.shop.
00:45:37.03\00:45:41.90
>>John: Who is the
mystery beast of Revelation?
00:45:42.77\00:45:45.41
The Book of Revelation speaks of
a power of tremendous religious
00:45:45.44\00:45:48.54
and political
significance that will rise up
00:45:48.58\00:45:50.71
in Earth's last days.
00:45:50.75\00:45:52.75
Find out who it is by
receiving this free offer:
00:45:52.78\00:45:55.72
“The Mystery
Beast of Revelation.”
00:45:55.75\00:45:58.19
Call us on 800-253-3000,
00:45:58.22\00:46:01.42
or visit us online
at itiswritten.com.
00:46:01.46\00:46:05.29
Or you can write to
the address on your screen.
00:46:05.33\00:46:08.00
I'd like you to
receive our free offer,
00:46:08.03\00:46:10.10
“The Mystery
Beast of Revelation.”
00:46:10.13\00:46:12.30
>>John: Welcome back to 500
and “Rome and the Reformation,”
00:46:13.37\00:46:17.01
brought to you by It Is Written.
00:46:17.04\00:46:18.44
I'm John Bradshaw.
00:46:18.47\00:46:19.71
My guest, Dr. Michael Hasel of
Southern Adventist University.
00:46:19.74\00:46:23.21
We've been speaking about
the Roman Catholic Church,
00:46:23.24\00:46:25.18
what it was
like in Luther's day.
00:46:25.21\00:46:26.58
Moments ago, we were discussing
this teaching of indulgences
00:46:26.61\00:46:30.55
that, among others, spurred
Luther to begin the Reformation.
00:46:30.59\00:46:36.62
In addition to the
teaching of indulgences,
00:46:36.66\00:46:39.23
what were some of the key or
some of the critical teachings
00:46:39.26\00:46:41.56
of the Church of Rome
that spurred the Reformation
00:46:41.60\00:46:44.93
500 years ago?
00:46:44.97\00:46:46.27
>>Dr. Hasel: There were
several teachings, I think,
00:46:46.30\00:46:47.70
that had crept into Rome
and had become tradition,
00:46:47.74\00:46:50.81
uh, in the church that was
very different from the Bible.
00:46:50.84\00:46:54.64
Rome taught that the church
would be the key to salvation,
00:46:54.68\00:46:59.35
that it held the
keys to salvation,
00:46:59.38\00:47:01.28
rather than Jesus Christ,
or faith in Jesus Christ,
00:47:01.32\00:47:04.09
alone that would have
that key to salvation.
00:47:04.12\00:47:06.55
So this was a very,
very different concept.
00:47:06.59\00:47:08.92
The very concept of the Bible
and the origin of the Bible
00:47:08.96\00:47:12.06
was also something that, uh,
Rome had a different view on.
00:47:12.09\00:47:18.07
Um, if you think about it,
the Council of Trent that came
00:47:18.10\00:47:20.84
as part of the
counter-Reformation
00:47:20.87\00:47:22.44
reaffirmed the
authority of the church
00:47:22.47\00:47:25.11
to not only believe in the
Bible, but to change the Bible.
00:47:25.14\00:47:29.44
Their position was that
the church created the Bible.
00:47:29.48\00:47:31.91
The Protestant position was that
the Bible created the church.
00:47:31.95\00:47:35.48
So you had some
very different concepts
00:47:35.52\00:47:37.79
even about scripture and
where scripture came from.
00:47:37.82\00:47:41.02
You also had, uh,
the concept of purgatory.
00:47:41.06\00:47:44.63
Purgatory was
something that came as a result
00:47:44.66\00:47:47.03
of the church's teaching.
00:47:47.03\00:47:48.50
It was not found
really in scripture.
00:47:48.53\00:47:50.20
Um, one of the issues
at the Council of Trent
00:47:50.23\00:47:52.70
to reaffirm purgatory was
to accept the apocryphal books
00:47:52.73\00:47:56.27
as part of the Bible,
00:47:56.30\00:47:57.57
in order to support
the teaching of purgatory
00:47:57.61\00:48:00.44
out of one of the Maccabee's
writing that was not part of the
00:48:00.48\00:48:04.25
original canon and not accepted
today by Protestants, either.
00:48:04.28\00:48:07.22
>>John: Now, what
about the priesthood?
00:48:07.25\00:48:08.82
What was the
church's view on, on that?
00:48:08.85\00:48:11.85
>>Dr. Hasel: Well, it
believed that the priests,
00:48:11.89\00:48:14.02
the priests that
served in the church,
00:48:14.06\00:48:16.69
were the people who controlled,
uh, the forgiveness of sins.
00:48:16.73\00:48:21.60
And so you had to come
to confession to a priest
00:48:21.63\00:48:24.33
rather than
directly go to, to Jesus,
00:48:24.37\00:48:27.00
who was our
intercessor to the Father.
00:48:27.04\00:48:29.70
Um, when Luther saw
that as he was reading
00:48:29.74\00:48:32.17
through Romans and Galatians,
00:48:32.21\00:48:34.51
he was quite, it was
an aha moment for him.
00:48:34.54\00:48:38.28
It was a relief.
00:48:38.31\00:48:39.25
Because prior to
that time he struggled
00:48:39.28\00:48:41.48
with the assurance of salvation,
00:48:41.52\00:48:43.49
and he struggled
with being good enough,
00:48:43.52\00:48:45.85
and this whole concept
that works and grace together
00:48:45.89\00:48:50.03
somehow were both
important for salvation.
00:48:50.06\00:48:53.40
And so he, he really, um,
tackled this issue head-on
00:48:53.43\00:48:58.70
in many of his writings.
00:48:58.73\00:49:00.37
And one of the things
that he said again and again
00:49:00.40\00:49:02.97
was that the priesthood,
00:49:03.00\00:49:04.27
really, destroyed the biblical
concept of the priesthood
00:49:04.31\00:49:07.88
of all believers, that
we all have access through
00:49:07.91\00:49:10.05
our High Priest, Jesus Christ,
to the forgiveness of sins,
00:49:10.08\00:49:13.48
simply by
praying to Him directly.
00:49:13.52\00:49:15.05
>>John: Now, Luther is
well known for his teaching
00:49:15.08\00:49:17.62
on justification by faith.
00:49:17.65\00:49:19.52
The church then didn't
teach justification by faith,
00:49:19.55\00:49:22.89
and you just eluded to that.
00:49:22.92\00:49:24.93
But if you were to ask
a Catholic scholar today,
00:49:24.96\00:49:29.13
that scholar would say,
00:49:29.16\00:49:30.27
indeed, the church does
teach justification by faith.
00:49:30.30\00:49:34.87
And, it does.
00:49:34.90\00:49:38.71
So where's the
problem with Rome's teaching
00:49:38.74\00:49:40.51
on justification by faith,
00:49:40.54\00:49:42.14
then, and presumably
it is not changed now.
00:49:42.18\00:49:44.51
Rome will say, we
teach justification by faith.
00:49:44.55\00:49:47.88
How does a
Protestant answer that question?
00:49:47.92\00:49:49.72
>>Dr. Hasel: Well, I
think Rome does teach
00:49:49.75\00:49:52.25
justification by faith.
00:49:52.29\00:49:54.42
But the question is, is it
justification by faith alone?
00:49:54.46\00:49:57.43
>>John: There you go.
00:49:57.46\00:49:58.33
>>Dr. Hasel: And
that's the question.
00:49:58.36\00:49:59.43
Because most of the time
you have something added on,
00:49:59.46\00:50:03.13
and this is
something that we find in Rome,
00:50:03.16\00:50:05.57
Rome's theology in general.
00:50:05.60\00:50:07.70
You have the
Bible and tradition.
00:50:07.74\00:50:10.47
You have justification
by faith and works.
00:50:10.51\00:50:14.74
And these elements,
00:50:14.78\00:50:16.64
we believe as Protestants
in good works as well,
00:50:16.68\00:50:19.25
but we believe in
a faith that works,
00:50:19.28\00:50:21.92
not a faith that
is, uh, not works that,
00:50:21.95\00:50:26.96
that lead to faith
and lead to salvation.
00:50:26.99\00:50:28.66
So it's by grace alone.
00:50:28.69\00:50:31.46
It's by faith alone.
00:50:31.49\00:50:33.23
It's by the Bible alone.
00:50:33.26\00:50:35.50
These were some of the pillars
of the Protestant Reformation.
00:50:35.53\00:50:38.43
And some of the pillars that
still are in contention today.
00:50:38.47\00:50:43.20
Even with the movement to
try to bring reconciliation
00:50:43.24\00:50:47.71
between
Protestantism and Catholicism,
00:50:47.74\00:50:49.54
and the documents that have been
signed on justification by faith
00:50:49.58\00:50:53.01
there are still nuances of that
00:50:53.05\00:50:55.95
that are not properly understood
or not properly resolved.
00:50:55.98\00:50:59.39
>>John: So other
teachings of the church then,
00:50:59.42\00:51:01.52
that shaped the church, and
gave rise to the Reformation,
00:51:01.56\00:51:05.23
what might some
of those have been?
00:51:05.26\00:51:06.56
There's the role of Mary.
00:51:06.59\00:51:07.60
>>Dr. Hasel: The
role of Mary, exactly.
00:51:07.66\00:51:08.93
So Mary, instead of praying
directly, again, to Jesus,
00:51:08.96\00:51:13.94
through Jesus
Christ to the Father,
00:51:13.97\00:51:16.60
a model, by the way that
Jesus gave His disciples,
00:51:16.64\00:51:18.81
the Lord's Prayer, you
have now prayers to Mary.
00:51:18.84\00:51:23.11
And it's very interesting,
and you grew up as a Catholic.
00:51:23.14\00:51:26.38
I've visited many
Catholic churches.
00:51:26.41\00:51:28.02
It's interesting; there's one
church that I like to visit in,
00:51:28.05\00:51:31.02
in Israel when I'm there.
00:51:31.05\00:51:32.65
It's a church that is, uh,
right at the Sea of Galilee,
00:51:32.69\00:51:36.83
and they have
candles that are being lit.
00:51:36.86\00:51:38.99
And on one side you have candles
that are being lit to Jesus,
00:51:39.03\00:51:41.80
and on the other side you
have candles being lit to Mary.
00:51:41.83\00:51:43.83
It's interesting that nobody
hardly goes to Jesus at all.
00:51:43.87\00:51:47.47
There are hardly
any candles there.
00:51:47.50\00:51:49.64
Most of the people go to Mary,
because she's the mother of God.
00:51:49.67\00:51:52.51
She's the soothing, loving,
compassionate mother of God.
00:51:52.54\00:51:57.01
And so rather than following
the compassionate Jesus,
00:51:57.05\00:52:00.85
uh, we have this, this
deity, in a sense, this person.
00:52:00.88\00:52:06.76
And it's not only Mary;
00:52:06.79\00:52:07.76
it's the saints
that are being prayed to.
00:52:07.79\00:52:10.29
It is, it is all of these things
that have been put in place
00:52:10.33\00:52:13.26
which really baptized
Pagan ideas of multiple gods
00:52:13.29\00:52:17.93
and brought
those into the church.
00:52:17.97\00:52:20.34
>>John: So Paganism came
into the church and affected
00:52:20.37\00:52:22.84
Catholicism then, and today.
00:52:22.87\00:52:25.01
I don't think
that's a criticism;
00:52:25.04\00:52:26.07
that's just a fact, is it not?
00:52:26.11\00:52:27.18
>>Dr. Hasel: It's a fact.
00:52:27.21\00:52:27.81
It's a fact.
00:52:27.84\00:52:28.81
My wife is from Brazil,
and we travel to Brazil,
00:52:28.84\00:52:30.75
and there in the
state of Minas Gerais
00:52:30.78\00:52:32.78
we have beautiful Catholic,
00:52:32.81\00:52:34.02
baroque Catholic churches
that were built in a time
00:52:34.05\00:52:37.19
in the 1700s when,
um, much of the gold
00:52:37.22\00:52:40.96
that filled the churches
and cathedrals in Europe
00:52:40.99\00:52:44.16
came from Brazil.
00:52:44.19\00:52:45.63
And you see
these baroque churches,
00:52:45.66\00:52:47.20
and there's one for the slaves,
00:52:47.23\00:52:48.36
and there's one for the,
uh, the elite of the town.
00:52:48.40\00:52:52.03
And you look in
the slave church,
00:52:52.07\00:52:54.24
you have all of these carved
images of African religion.
00:52:54.27\00:52:58.07
We would even say Pagan
religion that comes from Africa.
00:52:58.11\00:53:03.48
Um, and, you know,
asking the person that is there,
00:53:03.51\00:53:06.08
where does this all
come from, they said, oh,
00:53:06.11\00:53:07.88
this is simply adapted and
adopted by the Catholic church
00:53:07.92\00:53:11.29
from the religious
practices of the Africans
00:53:11.32\00:53:15.36
who came here as slaves
and incorporated into church,
00:53:15.39\00:53:18.96
uh, into the
church architecture,
00:53:18.99\00:53:20.96
into the church
art, and so forth.
00:53:20.96\00:53:22.73
And into the
church beliefs as well.
00:53:22.76\00:53:24.53
And you find this,
00:53:24.57\00:53:25.67
this melding and this
syncretism with world religions
00:53:25.70\00:53:30.54
also in the church in history,
as well as in more modern times.
00:53:30.57\00:53:34.41
>>John: So talk to me for a
moment about the church today.
00:53:34.44\00:53:38.48
Five hundred years ago
the church was in such dire
00:53:38.51\00:53:41.88
condition that
Luther just had to,
00:53:41.92\00:53:45.75
and he nailed those
protests to the wall,
00:53:45.79\00:53:48.26
to the door, I beg your pardon,
00:53:48.29\00:53:50.06
and the Reformation began.
00:53:50.09\00:53:51.43
And the church came, really,
under some sort of attack,
00:53:51.46\00:53:54.13
and you
understand how I mean that.
00:53:54.20\00:53:57.67
Back up 500 years,
00:53:57.70\00:54:00.17
and there's little about
the church that has changed.
00:54:00.20\00:54:05.21
So what gave rise to
the Reformation in 1517
00:54:05.24\00:54:10.95
exists today.
00:54:10.98\00:54:12.78
How does Rome
affect the world today?
00:54:12.81\00:54:15.55
>>Dr. Hasel: I think
there's been a shift in how Rome
00:54:15.58\00:54:18.15
has approached the
issue of the Reformation,
00:54:18.19\00:54:21.56
and the Reformers, and
the Reformation churches.
00:54:21.59\00:54:24.69
Um, for many years
there was an inquisition,
00:54:24.73\00:54:27.30
there was a counter-Reformation,
00:54:27.30\00:54:30.73
there was theological arguments
that were waged back and forth.
00:54:30.77\00:54:34.17
There were wars
that were fought,
00:54:34.20\00:54:35.60
the 30-years war
that decimated Europe.
00:54:35.64\00:54:38.91
There was a lot of conflict!
00:54:38.94\00:54:41.91
But since Vatican II
there's been a shift,
00:54:41.94\00:54:44.48
and that shift has
been very conciliatory.
00:54:44.51\00:54:47.68
We are not going now,
00:54:47.72\00:54:48.82
we're now going to open
ourselves to all religions.
00:54:48.85\00:54:50.95
We're going to open
ourselves to dialogue.
00:54:50.99\00:54:53.39
We're going to open ourselves
to understand one another.
00:54:53.42\00:54:56.32
And there's been a trend in
the last several years of the
00:54:56.36\00:54:58.99
pope asking forgiveness for not
only various church entities,
00:54:59.03\00:55:04.33
Protestant church entities,
00:55:04.37\00:55:06.13
but also even for the Crusades
00:55:06.17\00:55:08.07
and to Muslim
imams and various things.
00:55:08.10\00:55:12.97
So we have this,
00:55:13.01\00:55:14.11
this time now of what
appears to be reconciliation.
00:55:14.14\00:55:17.95
And who wants to
stand against that?
00:55:17.98\00:55:21.65
Protestantism has changed to
such a degree over the years,
00:55:21.68\00:55:24.79
it's lost its fervor,
00:55:24.82\00:55:26.15
it's lost its, its
righteous indignation
00:55:26.19\00:55:29.62
against some of these teachings.
00:55:29.66\00:55:30.96
And even within Protestantism,
00:55:30.99\00:55:32.96
you have a movement
away from the Bible.
00:55:32.99\00:55:35.56
You have a very strong
influence of secularism
00:55:35.60\00:55:37.90
and secular
thinking, scientific thinking,
00:55:37.93\00:55:39.57
historical criticism that
has undermined and undercut
00:55:39.60\00:55:43.17
true biblical
teaching the way Luther
00:55:43.20\00:55:45.14
and the Reformers understood it.
00:55:45.17\00:55:46.91
And so today you have,
00:55:46.94\00:55:49.44
you have a
change in Protestantism.
00:55:49.48\00:55:51.41
You have not much
change in Catholicism
00:55:51.45\00:55:53.88
except in their approach.
00:55:53.92\00:55:55.65
Their teachings are the same,
00:55:55.68\00:55:57.29
and yet we're living
in this ecumenical time
00:55:57.32\00:55:59.52
where people want to see change,
00:55:59.55\00:56:01.06
where people want to
see the coming together.
00:56:01.09\00:56:03.86
And, and this is
what is so dangerous.
00:56:03.89\00:56:06.36
>>John: Where do
you think it's leading?
00:56:06.39\00:56:08.13
>>Dr. Hasel: I think
it's leading to a resurgence
00:56:08.16\00:56:13.00
of Rome as the
ultimate power again.
00:56:13.03\00:56:17.41
That deadly wound that
Revelation 13 speaks about.
00:56:17.44\00:56:22.91
We are seeing it being healed
before our eyes, I believe,
00:56:22.94\00:56:26.15
and all effort is
being put in to that healing
00:56:26.18\00:56:30.45
and that bringing
together where Rome, in a sense,
00:56:30.49\00:56:33.62
will become ascendant again.
00:56:33.66\00:56:34.86
It's very interesting how Rome
00:56:34.89\00:56:36.22
is approaching
the churches as well.
00:56:36.26\00:56:38.26
It's approaching these
churches as the mother church
00:56:38.29\00:56:40.70
welcome back its, well, its
children that have gone astray.
00:56:40.73\00:56:46.84
And so, you know, it's
very interesting that it still
00:56:46.87\00:56:50.17
plays the dominant power,
00:56:50.21\00:56:52.24
and it still plays the,
the entity to which others
00:56:52.27\00:56:57.85
much come back to,
00:56:57.88\00:56:59.11
while giving the impression
that it's being conciliatory.
00:56:59.15\00:57:03.18
I find that very interesting.
00:57:03.22\00:57:04.49
>>John: Is there
still need for reformation?
00:57:04.52\00:57:06.22
>>Dr. Hasel: Absolutely.
00:57:06.25\00:57:07.42
There's need for
reformation constantly
00:57:07.46\00:57:10.83
in the lives of
each individual person,
00:57:10.86\00:57:12.89
but also, I think, corporately
in our churches as well.
00:57:12.93\00:57:15.80
I think we have come a long ways
from the Protestant Reformation,
00:57:15.83\00:57:19.60
from the fires that, that
influenced people like Zwingli
00:57:19.63\00:57:23.54
and Calvin and Luther, um,
Tyndale and Wesley as well.
00:57:23.57\00:57:28.94
I think this is a time
where we need to think carefully
00:57:28.98\00:57:34.28
about the biblical teachings.
00:57:34.32\00:57:36.38
What does the Word
really tell us today?
00:57:36.42\00:57:39.65
What did these
Reformers die for,
00:57:39.69\00:57:42.32
for hundreds of years,
as they were persecuted?
00:57:42.36\00:57:45.59
And what has really changed?
00:57:45.63\00:57:47.96
Has our attitude changed?
00:57:48.00\00:57:50.13
Has our perception changed?
00:57:50.17\00:57:51.57
Or are these issues
still the same today,
00:57:51.60\00:57:53.47
and is it still time to stand
up and to proclaim the Bible
00:57:53.50\00:57:57.61
as the Word of God?
00:57:57.64\00:57:58.64
>>John: Dr. Michael
Hasel, thank you so much.
00:57:58.67\00:58:00.04
>>Dr. Hasel: Thank you.
00:58:00.08\00:58:01.34
>>John: Be sure to
join me next time on 500.
00:58:01.38\00:58:04.31
Our program is “Here I Stand.”
00:58:04.35\00:58:06.65
We'll look at the life
and ministry of Martin Luther,
00:58:06.68\00:58:09.88
who on October 31st, 1517,
00:58:09.92\00:58:14.09
strode down the street toward
the door of the Castle church
00:58:14.12\00:58:17.46
in Wittenberg, Germany,
00:58:17.49\00:58:19.49
nailed his 95
theses to said door,
00:58:19.53\00:58:23.43
and the Protestant
Reformation was born.
00:58:23.47\00:58:27.07
My guest will be
Dr. Leslie Pollard,
00:58:27.10\00:58:29.20
the president of
Oakwood University.
00:58:29.24\00:58:31.91
Be sure to join me then.
00:58:31.94\00:58:33.71
Let's pray together.
00:58:33.74\00:58:35.54
Our Father in Heaven,
00:58:35.58\00:58:37.41
we thank you
that in your goodness
00:58:37.45\00:58:38.75
you have
preserved your Word for us.
00:58:38.78\00:58:41.65
We thank you for
Jesus, the Word made flesh.
00:58:41.68\00:58:44.42
We wish that He
would live in our hearts,
00:58:44.45\00:58:46.25
and we pray you
would make that so.
00:58:46.29\00:58:48.82
And we pray that our lives
would be based on your Word.
00:58:48.86\00:58:53.50
We thank you that there
were men and women of old
00:58:53.53\00:58:55.66
who dared to
stand up for your Word.
00:58:55.70\00:58:57.67
They in many cases
paid the ultimate price
00:58:57.70\00:59:00.54
so we could have
delivered to us the freedom
00:59:00.57\00:59:04.44
that comes through knowing you
personally through your Word.
00:59:04.47\00:59:10.08
So bless us, Lord,
00:59:10.11\00:59:11.05
I pray that any
reform that must take place
00:59:11.08\00:59:13.18
in our own lives would happen,
00:59:13.21\00:59:15.58
so that we can
be, by your grace,
00:59:15.62\00:59:17.85
everything that
you wish we would be.
00:59:17.89\00:59:21.16
We thank you and
ask your blessing,
00:59:21.19\00:59:22.52
and we pray
together in Jesus' name,
00:59:22.56\00:59:24.89
Amen.
00:59:24.93\00:59:26.29
Thanks so much for joining me.
00:59:26.33\00:59:27.40
I look forward to seeing
you again next time on 500.
00:59:27.40\00:59:30.27
Until then, remember:
00:59:30.30\00:59:31.40
"It Is Written.
00:59:31.43\00:59:33.40
Man shall not
live by bread alone,
00:59:33.44\00:59:34.94
but by every word that
proceeds from the mouth of God."
00:59:34.97\00:59:38.34
¤[Theme music]¤
00:59:38.37\00:59:53.39