>> So guilt is actually a gift
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that comes from God, because
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if we have a soft conscience,
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He's able to speak to us
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through our conscience and say,
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"This isn't good."
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So to feel guilty
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for doing that
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wasn't a bad thing.
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[theme music]
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¤¤
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[gentle music]
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¤¤
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>> Welcome to
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It Is Written Canada.
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Thank you for joining us.
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As people living in the
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human condition of being born
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with a sinful nature,
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we are prone to make
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sinful missteps and
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decisions which often lead
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to guilt and shame.
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What is the purpose of
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guilt and shame?
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What is the difference
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between the two?
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>> What does God want us to know
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in the aftermath of
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broken, sinful decisions?
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What does the devil want us
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to believe?
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How do we rise up after failure
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and find our dignity
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and strength again?
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Coming to an understanding
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of the difference between
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guilt and shame can help us
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in the healing journey.
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>> Today on
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It Is Written Canada,
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our special guest is
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Pastor Bill Spangler,
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who has led churches
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in the maritime Provinces,
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British Columbia and Alberta,
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retiring from the ministry
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in 2020.
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He has a Bachelor's of Theology
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and a Master's of Divinity
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degree, and has trained
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and is certified as a
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family mediator and life coach.
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>> Bill is married to
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Gwen Yosako, and they are
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parents to two daughters
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and enjoy two grandchildren.
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Bill is the author of the book,
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Lessons From the Wilderness,
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a catalog of life lessons
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that are useful to anyone
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seeking personal growth
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and skills for making
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relationships work.
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>> Bill, thank you for
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joining us again on
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It Is Written Canada.
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>> It's great to be here again.
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Thank you for inviting me.
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>> Bill, in your book,
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Lessons From the Wilderness:
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Find Your Way Home
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and Finish Well,
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a chapter in here was on guilt.
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And I found it helpful
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and intriguing how you
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talked about the gift of guilt.
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And most people just don't want
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anything to do with guilt.
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Let's get rid of it.
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So talk to us about that.
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>> Yeah, guilt is an
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interesting topic and it's
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a part of our journey and
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a part of our heart experience.
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And I think
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when I began to realize
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what guilt really was,
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I began to welcome it.
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So that's a strange
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kind of thing.
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Let's talk about it.
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So I started learning about
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guilt, although I didn't realize
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it at the time,
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I was very young.
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I was in first grade.
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So I processed this story later.
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But the story is that
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it was a muddy, rainy day.
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it was a muddy, rainy day.
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There was a big mud puddle
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in front of our school.
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And it was after school
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and some of the bigger boys
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had taken one of the boots
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of a fellow student
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out to the mud puddle
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and they were going to
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scoop muddy water into the
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scoop muddy water into the
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bottom of this boot
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for him to put it on when he
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came out of the classroom.
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And they got out there
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and they had second thoughts,
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and I said, "Well, I'll do it."
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So I took this boot,
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scooped it up with water,
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and handed it back to them.
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And just at that moment,
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the boy who owned the boot
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came out looking for it.
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He found one boot and
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couldn't find the other,
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and he immediately assessed
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what was going on and went
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back in to get the teacher.
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Well, I didn't know what was
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gonna happen then.
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And she came out and
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a few steps up to the landing
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by the front door and
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she stood on the steps
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with her hands on her hips.
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"Who did this?"
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So I couldn't deny it.
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So I stepped out and said,
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"I did."
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Just then, in that
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almost moment,
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the car pulled up
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to take me home.
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So she said, "Okay,
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your ride is here.
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We'll talk about this tomorrow."
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That was like a death sentence
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to me.
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And so we go home and I get home
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and I'm a mess.
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I'm crying, and I'm afraid
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because tomorrow I'm gonna
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face the consequences of this
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deed that I did.
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So my mother, of course, wanted
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to know what was going on,
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and I told her.
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And I was a mess.
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I just, I was sure that I had...
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...I was gonna to be in
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real trouble.
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And so I remember her
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calling the teacher and
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talking to the teacher,
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and then she came back
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and she said, "The teacher says
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not to worry.
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We'll talk about it tomorrow."
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So now I had all evening
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and night and morning,
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and I don't remember
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specifically, but I'm sure that
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I went to school with, you know,
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great fear and trepidation.
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And I got there and
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she didn't say anything.
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I guess she said,
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"We'll talk about it at noon."
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Yeah, because I was waiting
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at noon for her to talk to me
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and get my punishment.
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And that day was a sunny day
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and noon hour, everybody was out
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playing ball or whatever
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they were doing, and I wanted to
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be out there with them.
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So come on, talk to me.
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Let's get this going
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because I want to go play.
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And I sat at my desk
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and she was busy on her desk
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and she never spoke.
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The classroom was empty,
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just me and her, and I'm
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waiting for her to talk to me.
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And she said nothing.
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And then finally
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at five to one, she said,
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"Okay, you can go out to the
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bathroom now if you need to."
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That was it.
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I had to miss
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that hour.
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That was my punishment.
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And so I got on with life
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and kept going.
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But that story never left me.
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And then years later,
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as I began to learn and process
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some things, I realized
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the guilt that I
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felt there and
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the reality of it and
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consequences to guilt
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and so forth.
00:07:01.68\00:07:02.68
So I have learned
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from that story what
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conscience is.
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And conscience is kind of
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the seat of where we feel
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our guilt.
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And so guilt is actually
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a gift that comes from God,
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because if we have a
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soft conscience,
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He's able to speak to us
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through our conscience and say,
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"This isn't good."
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It wasn't good what I did,
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I mean, who wants to put
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their foot into a
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muddy-watered boot?
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I wouldn't want that.
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I wouldn't want someone
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to do that to me.
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So to feel guilty for
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doing that wasn't a bad thing.
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But I think about stories
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in the Bible
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of people who,
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when they were
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confronted with
00:07:46.56\00:07:48.33
situations,
00:07:48.33\00:07:50.03
guilt comes up there.
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For example,
00:07:51.07\00:07:52.70
one day the
00:07:52.70\00:07:54.70
people who all were involved,
00:07:54.70\00:07:56.47
I'm not sure, but they brought
00:07:56.47\00:07:57.77
the woman to Jesus who had been
00:07:57.77\00:07:59.64
caught in adultery and they
00:07:59.64\00:08:01.21
challenged Him and they said...
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"The law says that
00:08:04.48\00:08:05.51
she should be stoned.
00:08:05.51\00:08:06.51
What do you say?"
00:08:06.51\00:08:07.55
Of course, they were
00:08:07.55\00:08:08.58
challenging Him,
00:08:08.58\00:08:09.95
and He began to write sins,
00:08:09.95\00:08:12.82
their sins, in the sand
00:08:12.82\00:08:15.16
and then said, "Yeah,
00:08:15.16\00:08:16.59
go ahead and stone her.
00:08:16.59\00:08:16.76
go ahead and stone her.
00:08:17.23\00:08:18.96
Let the one who has no guilt
00:08:18.96\00:08:21.16
or the one who has
00:08:21.16\00:08:22.26
not committed sin,
00:08:22.26\00:08:24.07
cast the first stone,
00:08:24.07\00:08:25.10
be the first one
00:08:25.10\00:08:26.10
to cast a stone."
00:08:26.10\00:08:27.44
And...
00:08:27.44\00:08:27.94
And...
00:08:27.94\00:08:28.34
...they all left.
00:08:29.44\00:08:30.54
The story says they left,
00:08:30.54\00:08:31.64
which is actually kind of a
00:08:31.64\00:08:33.17
good news story in that
00:08:33.17\00:08:35.48
it says that they had
00:08:35.48\00:08:36.81
a conscience.
00:08:36.81\00:08:38.01
The conscience was,
00:08:38.01\00:08:40.48
"Oh...
00:08:40.48\00:08:41.65
...I did that.
00:08:42.68\00:08:43.92
I see my...
00:08:44.62\00:08:46.96
...I see my sin in the sand."
00:08:47.56\00:08:49.32
Rather than just explain it away
00:08:50.96\00:08:52.76
in their minds and say,
00:08:52.76\00:08:53.80
"I'm not guilty, I'll grab
00:08:53.80\00:08:54.83
the first stone.
00:08:54.83\00:08:56.26
Let's get started here,"
00:08:56.26\00:08:58.20
they all left.
00:08:58.20\00:09:00.70
We think about them and how
00:09:00.70\00:09:03.51
wrong they were
00:09:03.51\00:09:04.74
to do what they did
00:09:04.74\00:09:05.87
to try and trap Jesus.
00:09:05.87\00:09:07.34
In reality, there was something
00:09:07.34\00:09:09.38
good about that to them,
00:09:09.38\00:09:11.21
that it displays
00:09:11.21\00:09:13.18
that they had a conscience
00:09:13.18\00:09:14.45
that was at work.
00:09:14.45\00:09:15.58
So I recognize that
00:09:15.58\00:09:17.72
guilt is a gift,
00:09:17.72\00:09:20.22
a gift from God.
00:09:20.22\00:09:21.22
And that's a strange statement
00:09:21.22\00:09:23.29
to make.
00:09:23.29\00:09:24.13
>> So Jesus said
00:09:24.13\00:09:26.13
to that woman,
00:09:26.13\00:09:27.86
"Where are your accusers?"
00:09:27.86\00:09:29.46
and she's like,
00:09:29.46\00:09:30.83
"Well, they're gone," right?
00:09:30.83\00:09:32.07
"There's- no one is here
00:09:32.07\00:09:33.77
to accuse me.
00:09:33.77\00:09:34.80
Where are they?"
00:09:34.80\00:09:35.80
And then He said,
00:09:35.80\00:09:37.31
"Neither do I
00:09:37.31\00:09:39.17
condemn you.
00:09:39.17\00:09:40.44
Go and sin no more."
00:09:40.44\00:09:42.81
So how is that good news?
00:09:42.81\00:09:45.71
Can I go into no more?
00:09:45.71\00:09:47.98
What enables me to do that?
00:09:47.98\00:09:49.58
>> Well, when He said that
00:09:50.49\00:09:51.75
to the woman, I'm sure that
00:09:51.75\00:09:53.32
as she went away,
00:09:53.32\00:09:54.92
she had this serious
00:09:54.92\00:09:57.26
gratitude,
00:09:57.26\00:09:58.79
relief maybe.
00:09:58.79\00:10:01.20
Not maybe, probably
00:10:01.20\00:10:04.00
that He didn't condemn me.
00:10:04.00\00:10:06.23
They're gone.
00:10:06.23\00:10:08.07
Now what do I do
00:10:08.07\00:10:09.74
with this freedom?
00:10:09.74\00:10:11.04
They didn't stone me, I'm alive.
00:10:11.04\00:10:13.07
But it's more than that.
00:10:13.07\00:10:14.38
I get to walk away
00:10:14.38\00:10:16.24
without condemnation from
00:10:16.24\00:10:18.21
this teacher,
00:10:18.21\00:10:19.31
from whoever this man is.
00:10:19.31\00:10:21.92
I'm sure that that motivated her
00:10:23.85\00:10:25.85
to rethink her life
00:10:25.85\00:10:27.69
and to step into a place of...
00:10:27.69\00:10:30.19
...forward movement
00:10:31.09\00:10:33.06
and forward thinking
00:10:33.06\00:10:34.10
and forward and growth.
00:10:34.10\00:10:35.30
I know that's how it was for me
00:10:37.37\00:10:39.73
with the boot story.
00:10:39.73\00:10:41.47
I would not have gone back
00:10:41.47\00:10:43.34
the next day, if there was
00:10:43.34\00:10:44.41
a puddle the next day and
00:10:44.41\00:10:45.67
someone had said, "Let's fill
00:10:45.67\00:10:47.64
this guy's boot with water,"
00:10:47.64\00:10:49.28
there's not a chance
00:10:49.28\00:10:50.35
I would have done that
00:10:50.35\00:10:51.81
because I had had
00:10:51.81\00:10:53.72
the consequence of it.
00:10:53.72\00:10:55.82
The feelings that I experienced
00:10:55.82\00:10:57.89
that night, the dread that I had
00:10:57.89\00:10:59.89
the whole night experience.
00:10:59.89\00:11:02.02
I would not want to repeat that.
00:11:02.02\00:11:04.29
So when Jesus says,
00:11:04.29\00:11:05.93
"Go and sin no more,"
00:11:05.93\00:11:08.23
even though she knew
00:11:08.23\00:11:09.26
she was guilty,
00:11:09.26\00:11:11.47
the guilt was actually
00:11:11.47\00:11:12.60
a gift to her
00:11:12.60\00:11:14.24
to bring her to a place of
00:11:14.24\00:11:16.47
process and a place of...
00:11:16.47\00:11:18.91
...thinking about
00:11:19.84\00:11:21.04
her whole experience
00:11:21.04\00:11:22.11
and her life,
00:11:22.11\00:11:24.01
which is what guilt is
00:11:24.01\00:11:25.35
meant to do for all of us.
00:11:25.35\00:11:28.18
People who have a conscience...
00:11:28.18\00:11:30.32
...should be grateful for
00:11:31.42\00:11:32.55
the fact that they feel guilt
00:11:32.55\00:11:34.16
when things happen.
00:11:34.16\00:11:35.42
I think about it as
00:11:37.23\00:11:38.23
an illustration of
00:11:38.23\00:11:39.73
we're walking along and we
00:11:39.73\00:11:41.26
get a little pebble in our shoe.
00:11:41.26\00:11:42.86
We can get very angry at
00:11:43.97\00:11:45.20
the pebble and the irritation
00:11:45.20\00:11:46.80
of that pebble, but if we
00:11:46.80\00:11:49.04
look at the other side of
00:11:49.04\00:11:50.07
the coin, we should be grateful
00:11:50.07\00:11:51.47
that we have nerves
00:11:51.47\00:11:53.11
at that place where
00:11:53.11\00:11:54.18
the pebble is that causes pain,
00:11:54.18\00:11:56.24
that causes irritation
00:11:56.24\00:11:57.98
to stop, take the shoe off,
00:11:57.98\00:12:00.18
get the sand,
00:12:00.18\00:12:01.22
get the pebble out,
00:12:01.22\00:12:02.28
because if we keep walking
00:12:02.28\00:12:04.02
on that little rock,
00:12:04.02\00:12:05.09
even though it's very tiny,
00:12:05.09\00:12:07.29
if we keep walking on that,
00:12:07.29\00:12:08.99
it's going to cause
00:12:08.99\00:12:11.29
a sore.
00:12:11.29\00:12:12.16
That sore could turn into
00:12:12.16\00:12:13.26
something bigger and bigger,
00:12:13.26\00:12:14.66
and it could be dreadful.
00:12:14.66\00:12:16.53
I remember reading a book
00:12:16.53\00:12:19.27
called "Pain: The Gift That
00:12:19.27\00:12:21.80
Nobody Wants,"
00:12:21.80\00:12:23.67
by Paul Brand and Philip Yancey.
00:12:23.67\00:12:25.71
I was fascinated by that book.
00:12:25.71\00:12:28.14
It- he- they talked about...
00:12:28.14\00:12:30.61
...people who had leprosy
00:12:31.35\00:12:34.32
and how leprosy numbed
00:12:34.32\00:12:36.32
their senses and their
00:12:36.32\00:12:37.35
nerve pain so that they would
00:12:37.35\00:12:39.52
repeat the same
00:12:39.52\00:12:40.89
damaging actions
00:12:40.89\00:12:42.92
over and over again.
00:12:42.92\00:12:43.96
They would walk on
00:12:43.96\00:12:45.46
feet that didn't feel anything.
00:12:45.46\00:12:46.93
So they would continually
00:12:46.93\00:12:48.40
damage their nerve,
00:12:48.40\00:12:50.67
their flesh.
00:12:50.67\00:12:51.73
And I realized from that book
00:12:53.07\00:12:54.60
how beautiful pain is actually.
00:12:54.60\00:12:57.51
It's a warning to us.
00:12:57.51\00:12:59.57
And guilt is the same thing.
00:12:59.57\00:13:01.54
Guilt is a warning to us.
00:13:01.54\00:13:03.08
If we do something like
00:13:03.08\00:13:04.75
fill a boot full of water or
00:13:04.75\00:13:06.85
whatever else it is
00:13:06.85\00:13:07.92
that we might do,
00:13:07.92\00:13:09.18
and we feel immediately
00:13:09.18\00:13:11.32
guilty about that,
00:13:11.32\00:13:12.82
that's God speaking to us.
00:13:12.82\00:13:14.69
If we would just be
00:13:14.69\00:13:16.36
aware of that, that, Oh, God is
00:13:16.36\00:13:18.13
trying to get my attention.
00:13:18.13\00:13:20.53
My body is trying to get
00:13:20.53\00:13:21.70
my attention.
00:13:21.70\00:13:22.80
There's a rock in your shoe.
00:13:22.80\00:13:24.13
So it's actually
00:13:25.73\00:13:27.94
a wonderful opportunity
00:13:27.94\00:13:30.31
to reorient
00:13:30.31\00:13:32.47
whatever it is that
00:13:32.47\00:13:33.81
God is speaking to us about.
00:13:33.81\00:13:35.78
>> So He's warning us
00:13:35.78\00:13:37.01
through guilt
00:13:37.01\00:13:38.28
not to hurt ourselves and
00:13:38.28\00:13:39.65
not to hurt others.
00:13:39.65\00:13:41.02
Because sin really is
00:13:41.02\00:13:42.52
more than breaking a law.
00:13:42.52\00:13:45.19
It's really about breaking
00:13:45.19\00:13:46.52
a relationship
00:13:46.52\00:13:47.86
and hurting ourselves.
00:13:47.86\00:13:49.59
>> Exactly.
00:13:49.59\00:13:50.49
>> We're hostages to sin...
00:13:50.49\00:13:53.29
...and guilt is telling us,
00:13:54.36\00:13:55.73
"Hey, we need to process this.
00:13:55.73\00:13:57.73
We need to confess."
00:13:57.73\00:13:59.30
And God, of course, is
00:13:59.30\00:14:01.57
more than willing to forgive
00:14:01.57\00:14:02.64
as He did with that woman.
00:14:02.64\00:14:04.51
>> Yeah, and...
00:14:04.51\00:14:05.47
...the human heart wants to
00:14:06.21\00:14:07.28
go the other way and get rid of
00:14:07.28\00:14:08.54
guilt and push guilt away.
00:14:08.54\00:14:10.41
I don't want to feel guilty.
00:14:10.41\00:14:12.01
I want to do everything I can
00:14:12.01\00:14:13.15
to get rid of guilt.
00:14:13.15\00:14:14.25
And it's not guilt that we
00:14:14.25\00:14:15.28
need to get rid of;
00:14:15.28\00:14:16.35
we need to face guilt
00:14:16.35\00:14:17.59
and say, what is it that
00:14:17.59\00:14:18.95
God's trying to tell me here?
00:14:18.95\00:14:21.56
What's the message
00:14:21.56\00:14:22.69
He's speaking to me about?
00:14:22.69\00:14:24.56
And that was a great
00:14:24.56\00:14:26.43
learning point for me.
00:14:26.43\00:14:28.13
>> But, Bill, when we experience
00:14:30.07\00:14:32.20
this guilt and we try and
00:14:32.20\00:14:34.67
process the guilt and the shame
00:14:34.67\00:14:37.27
that we have caused or that
00:14:37.27\00:14:38.94
we have experienced,
00:14:38.94\00:14:40.64
there's a lot of wrestling
00:14:40.64\00:14:42.54
that happens within us
00:14:42.54\00:14:44.85
as we're processing that.
00:14:44.85\00:14:46.51
Can you tell us about
00:14:46.51\00:14:47.98
these wrestles or these things
00:14:47.98\00:14:49.98
that we have to really
00:14:49.98\00:14:51.39
fight with within ourselves?
00:14:51.39\00:14:53.32
>> Great question, René.
00:14:54.32\00:14:56.93
For me,
00:14:56.93\00:14:58.46
as I have experienced
00:14:58.46\00:14:59.89
guilt in my life,
00:14:59.89\00:15:01.66
I just wanna get beyond it.
00:15:01.66\00:15:03.70
I just wanna push it
00:15:03.70\00:15:04.70
out of the way.
00:15:04.70\00:15:05.70
I don't wanna feel
00:15:05.70\00:15:06.74
all the emotion and the
00:15:06.74\00:15:08.40
confusion that goes with that.
00:15:08.40\00:15:10.34
I just wanna get back to
00:15:10.34\00:15:11.81
the guy before the event,
00:15:11.81\00:15:14.61
the choice, the action,
00:15:14.61\00:15:16.28
whatever it was.
00:15:16.28\00:15:17.78
Part of it is dealing with
00:15:17.78\00:15:20.02
the regrets that we have.
00:15:20.02\00:15:22.92
I remember a lady saying to me,
00:15:22.92\00:15:24.39
in fact, I put it in this term.
00:15:24.39\00:15:26.29
She said to me,
00:15:26.29\00:15:27.39
"So how are you doing?"
00:15:27.39\00:15:29.39
I was at a seminar and
00:15:29.39\00:15:31.23
she asked me in front of
00:15:31.23\00:15:32.26
the whole group,
00:15:32.26\00:15:34.50
"How are you doing?"
00:15:34.50\00:15:35.56
And I said, "I pull behind me
00:15:35.56\00:15:37.63
a semi-trailer load of regrets
00:15:37.63\00:15:39.73
everywhere I go."
00:15:39.73\00:15:40.84
And that's really how it felt.
00:15:42.70\00:15:43.97
It's like this is what I bought
00:15:43.97\00:15:46.71
for the rest of my life.
00:15:46.71\00:15:47.84
I mean, my actions have-
00:15:47.84\00:15:49.48
This is the end result,
00:15:50.58\00:15:52.25
and I gotta live with it.
00:15:52.25\00:15:54.25
And she said,
00:15:54.25\00:15:56.52
"Well, why don't you
00:15:56.52\00:15:57.69
unhook the trailer?"
00:15:57.69\00:15:58.99
And I just thought,
00:16:00.36\00:16:03.09
You can do that?
00:16:03.09\00:16:04.99
You can actually
00:16:04.99\00:16:06.53
let go of the regrets
00:16:06.53\00:16:08.03
and the guilt
00:16:08.03\00:16:09.20
and all of that?
00:16:09.20\00:16:11.00
And I don't even know
00:16:11.00\00:16:13.67
how I answered her,
00:16:13.67\00:16:14.67
because I was so shocked that
00:16:14.67\00:16:16.44
there might be a day of freedom.
00:16:16.44\00:16:18.07
There might be a day of
00:16:18.07\00:16:19.71
something better.
00:16:19.71\00:16:21.68
And so wrestling with that
00:16:21.68\00:16:23.28
and accepting the fact that,
00:16:23.28\00:16:24.98
yeah, maybe I could let go of
00:16:24.98\00:16:27.12
the regrets of it all
00:16:27.12\00:16:28.62
and step into a stronger and
00:16:28.62\00:16:30.22
brighter tomorrow.
00:16:30.22\00:16:31.79
Maybe that was possible.
00:16:31.79\00:16:33.09
And that was part of
00:16:33.09\00:16:34.19
my wrestling experience.
00:16:34.19\00:16:35.22
I just wanted to get back to
00:16:35.22\00:16:37.16
the guy that I felt that
00:16:37.16\00:16:38.96
I had been before.
00:16:38.96\00:16:40.50
>> So what insights did you get
00:16:41.13\00:16:43.33
into not only guilt, but guilt
00:16:43.33\00:16:45.20
and shame?
00:16:45.20\00:16:46.70
>> Yeah, shame and guilt are
00:16:46.70\00:16:48.00
sort of cousins that go together
00:16:48.00\00:16:49.47
and they get confused.
00:16:49.47\00:16:51.01
People...
00:16:52.01\00:16:53.04
...talk about guilt and shame
00:16:54.21\00:16:55.48
almost synonymously.
00:16:55.48\00:16:57.11
And I want to say that
00:16:57.11\00:16:58.15
there is a difference.
00:16:58.15\00:16:59.31
Guilt is the experience of God
00:17:00.95\00:17:03.62
awakening our conscience
00:17:03.62\00:17:04.89
to something that we're doing
00:17:04.89\00:17:07.02
or saying or whatever.
00:17:07.02\00:17:09.42
And it's actually a place where
00:17:09.42\00:17:12.23
the response to guilt is
00:17:12.23\00:17:13.50
accountability.
00:17:13.50\00:17:14.66
Yes, I did that.
00:17:14.66\00:17:15.83
Yes, I filled the boot
00:17:15.83\00:17:17.27
with water.
00:17:17.27\00:17:18.27
Yes, I said those things.
00:17:18.27\00:17:21.04
That's the end result of guilt.
00:17:21.04\00:17:23.94
But shame, on the other hand,
00:17:23.94\00:17:26.01
talks about
00:17:26.01\00:17:27.98
our experience of
00:17:27.98\00:17:29.94
how we feel about ourselves
00:17:29.94\00:17:31.78
after we have...
00:17:31.78\00:17:33.35
...misbehaved or
00:17:35.12\00:17:36.15
done something wrong.
00:17:36.15\00:17:37.82
Our shame is the
00:17:37.82\00:17:40.76
character value that we
00:17:40.76\00:17:42.76
place upon ourselves.
00:17:42.76\00:17:44.86
Guilt deals with the action
00:17:44.86\00:17:46.29
itself, shame deals with
00:17:46.29\00:17:47.93
the emotion around the action.
00:17:47.93\00:17:50.90
Guilt says, "I told a lie."
00:17:50.90\00:17:53.44
Shame says, "I'm a liar.
00:17:54.74\00:17:57.21
That's who I am."
00:17:59.41\00:18:01.41
Guilt says,
00:18:01.41\00:18:03.18
"I did something bad."
00:18:03.18\00:18:05.41
Shame says, "I'm a bad person."
00:18:05.41\00:18:08.05
So now with shame, we have to
00:18:09.15\00:18:10.65
deal with the reality that
00:18:10.65\00:18:13.52
we did something
00:18:13.52\00:18:15.16
that we're guilty of
00:18:15.16\00:18:16.26
and this makes me.
00:18:16.26\00:18:18.26
It's a story that I tell myself.
00:18:18.26\00:18:20.26
Because I did that,
00:18:20.26\00:18:21.60
now I am, and it's never
00:18:21.60\00:18:23.77
complimentary what we say.
00:18:23.77\00:18:25.70
I'm sure the enemy helps us
00:18:25.70\00:18:27.84
work on shame and push us down
00:18:27.84\00:18:30.57
and make our character...
00:18:30.57\00:18:33.34
...as heinous as
00:18:34.61\00:18:36.34
we can make it
00:18:36.34\00:18:37.38
in our own minds.
00:18:37.38\00:18:38.51
I'm a bad person, I'm a loser,
00:18:38.51\00:18:41.02
I'm never good enough.
00:18:41.02\00:18:42.32
I'm a bad husband,
00:18:42.32\00:18:43.42
I'm a bad wife,
00:18:43.42\00:18:44.45
I'm a bad worker, I...
00:18:44.45\00:18:47.02
Whatever it is,
00:18:47.02\00:18:48.76
I'll never measure up.
00:18:48.76\00:18:51.13
That's all shame
00:18:51.13\00:18:52.83
and the shame that...
00:18:52.83\00:18:54.10
...the devil likes to make sure
00:18:55.36\00:18:57.30
that we're aware of
00:18:57.30\00:18:58.97
all the time.
00:18:58.97\00:19:00.80
Shame is
00:19:00.80\00:19:02.30
where the regrets lie.
00:19:02.30\00:19:03.81
Shame is where the,
00:19:03.81\00:19:06.57
"I don't know if I can
00:19:06.57\00:19:07.94
get out of this hole."
00:19:07.94\00:19:10.05
That's what that whole
00:19:10.05\00:19:11.08
experience is.
00:19:11.08\00:19:12.28
So I like to think about
00:19:13.62\00:19:15.22
shame in two ways.
00:19:15.22\00:19:16.65
Well, I don't know if I like to
00:19:18.05\00:19:19.15
think about shame in two ways,
00:19:19.15\00:19:20.46
but I recognize shame
00:19:20.46\00:19:21.72
in two ways.
00:19:21.72\00:19:22.99
I believe that there's something
00:19:22.99\00:19:24.86
that I would call healthy shame
00:19:24.86\00:19:27.30
and unhealthy shame.
00:19:27.30\00:19:28.73
So if guilt is actually
00:19:30.27\00:19:33.30
coming to the reality
00:19:33.30\00:19:35.40
of what it is that I did...
00:19:35.40\00:19:37.91
...now I have to learn
00:19:39.84\00:19:40.94
what to do with it.
00:19:40.94\00:19:42.44
And shame is coming to the place
00:19:42.44\00:19:44.11
of what I did and feeling...
00:19:44.11\00:19:45.75
...that I...
00:19:47.58\00:19:48.82
...am a bad person
00:19:49.85\00:19:50.92
for doing that.
00:19:50.92\00:19:52.95
People who come alongside me
00:19:52.95\00:19:55.49
when I have experienced guilt
00:19:55.49\00:19:58.46
and when I have deserved guilt.
00:19:58.46\00:20:01.20
People can come in one of
00:20:01.20\00:20:02.33
two ways.
00:20:02.33\00:20:03.37
They can come to me and say,
00:20:03.37\00:20:05.37
"Yeah, you did that.
00:20:05.37\00:20:06.37
And that was really stupid.
00:20:06.37\00:20:07.40
I don't know what
00:20:07.40\00:20:08.44
you were thinking.
00:20:08.44\00:20:09.54
I don't know how you could be
00:20:09.54\00:20:10.71
so out of touch
00:20:10.71\00:20:12.94
with reality that you would
00:20:12.94\00:20:14.28
do that."
00:20:14.28\00:20:15.48
That only helps to
00:20:16.85\00:20:18.11
pile the shame on.
00:20:18.11\00:20:19.51
But if somebody comes
00:20:20.82\00:20:21.85
alongside me and says,
00:20:21.85\00:20:23.82
"Yeah, you did that.
00:20:23.82\00:20:25.29
And that was very hurtful.
00:20:25.29\00:20:26.62
How can I help you?
00:20:28.06\00:20:29.99
How can I walk with you?
00:20:29.99\00:20:31.96
How can I encourage you?
00:20:31.96\00:20:33.26
How can I build you up?
00:20:33.26\00:20:34.93
How can we step into the future?
00:20:34.93\00:20:37.33
By them starting at the place of
00:20:37.33\00:20:39.27
"Yes, you did that,"
00:20:39.27\00:20:40.94
they're just being accountable,
00:20:40.94\00:20:42.40
helping me be accountable,
00:20:42.40\00:20:44.51
helping me own
00:20:44.51\00:20:45.97
the reality of what it is
00:20:45.97\00:20:47.58
that I'm experiencing,
00:20:47.58\00:20:49.54
but then stepping up beside me
00:20:49.54\00:20:51.58
like Jesus.
00:20:51.58\00:20:52.98
When the woman came and He said,
00:20:52.98\00:20:54.88
"I don't condemn you either,"
00:20:54.88\00:20:56.18
He also said, "Go and
00:20:56.18\00:20:57.59
sin no more."
00:20:57.59\00:20:59.02
He's encouraging her
00:20:59.02\00:21:00.59
to a healthy lifestyle,
00:21:00.59\00:21:02.22
but He's not ignoring the
00:21:02.22\00:21:03.26
fact that was there,
00:21:03.26\00:21:05.09
the fact that brought her there.
00:21:05.09\00:21:06.96
So healthy shame to me
00:21:06.96\00:21:08.36
is my friend or
00:21:08.36\00:21:10.50
somebody coming alongside of me
00:21:10.50\00:21:12.17
and saying, "Yeah,
00:21:12.17\00:21:14.07
let's not ignore the reality,
00:21:14.07\00:21:17.01
but let's heal it.
00:21:17.01\00:21:18.27
Let's go from here,"
00:21:18.27\00:21:19.77
where unhealthy shame says,
00:21:19.77\00:21:21.74
"Yeah, that was pretty stupid.
00:21:21.74\00:21:23.31
You deserve every consequence
00:21:23.31\00:21:24.75
that you got."
00:21:24.75\00:21:25.85
>> So, Bill,
00:21:26.95\00:21:28.72
healthy shame is
00:21:28.72\00:21:30.65
kind of a strange term,
00:21:30.65\00:21:32.85
but I really like the way
00:21:32.85\00:21:34.02
you explained it.
00:21:34.02\00:21:35.09
With healthy shame, we're not
00:21:36.19\00:21:38.06
carrying all that burden
00:21:38.06\00:21:40.30
and placing that burden
00:21:40.30\00:21:42.66
of our characters,
00:21:42.66\00:21:44.53
of what, you know, what we're
00:21:44.53\00:21:45.67
not created to be, really,
00:21:45.67\00:21:48.47
and then-
00:21:48.47\00:21:49.74
But having someone
00:21:49.74\00:21:51.87
there with us
00:21:51.87\00:21:53.27
to go through it,
00:21:53.27\00:21:54.78
to go through our shame
00:21:54.78\00:21:56.44
and to process our shame
00:21:56.44\00:21:58.65
and that makes it healthy.
00:21:58.65\00:22:00.98
>> Mm-hmm.
00:22:00.98\00:22:02.12
I think that probably
00:22:02.12\00:22:03.82
the story of Peter is
00:22:03.82\00:22:05.05
a good example
00:22:05.05\00:22:06.96
of healthy shame.
00:22:06.96\00:22:08.32
Jesus said to him
00:22:08.32\00:22:09.49
even before
00:22:09.49\00:22:11.46
he denied Him, Jesus said,
00:22:11.46\00:22:13.36
"You're going to deny Me
00:22:13.36\00:22:14.46
three times before the
00:22:14.46\00:22:15.53
rooster crows in the morning."
00:22:15.53\00:22:17.73
"Not me," Peter, you know.
00:22:17.73\00:22:20.14
When the rooster crowed
00:22:20.14\00:22:21.20
in the morning and he realized
00:22:21.20\00:22:23.30
what he had just said...
00:22:23.30\00:22:24.94
...he went out.
00:22:26.84\00:22:28.38
He left and wept bitterly,
00:22:28.38\00:22:30.75
it says.
00:22:30.75\00:22:31.71
And then
00:22:31.71\00:22:33.95
when Jesus arose
00:22:33.95\00:22:36.08
on the third day, He said,
00:22:36.08\00:22:38.59
"Go and tell My disciples
00:22:38.59\00:22:40.56
and Peter to meet Me
00:22:40.56\00:22:43.19
in Galilee."
00:22:43.19\00:22:44.73
He was recognizing
00:22:44.73\00:22:46.70
the shame that Peter felt
00:22:46.70\00:22:49.46
and wanted to encourage him
00:22:49.46\00:22:51.30
and say, "Yeah, I know.
00:22:51.30\00:22:53.30
I knew before you did it
00:22:53.30\00:22:54.40
you were going to do that.
00:22:54.40\00:22:56.71
But come, let's talk.
00:22:56.71\00:22:58.24
I'm with you.
00:22:58.24\00:22:59.27
Let's step forward from here."
00:22:59.27\00:23:00.58
To me, that's a perfect
00:23:00.58\00:23:02.68
biblical illustration
00:23:02.68\00:23:04.38
of someone walking beside
00:23:04.38\00:23:07.32
with healthy shame.
00:23:07.32\00:23:08.55
Yes, and.
00:23:08.55\00:23:10.29
>> It sparked in my mind,
00:23:12.69\00:23:14.39
and I just gotta open the Bible
00:23:14.39\00:23:16.99
to that place.
00:23:16.99\00:23:18.69
And Jesus is talking to him
00:23:18.69\00:23:19.89
in John chapter 13,
00:23:19.89\00:23:21.73
and he's like...
00:23:21.73\00:23:23.23
And Jesus says...
00:23:27.67\00:23:29.50
And he says, "Let not your heart
00:23:39.98\00:23:41.62
be troubled..."
00:23:41.62\00:23:42.78
He's actually talking to Peter
00:23:42.78\00:23:44.49
right there.
00:23:44.49\00:23:45.49
He says...
00:23:45.49\00:23:46.62
...for you, Peter, right?
00:23:56.43\00:23:58.53
Here, He's promising him
00:24:04.61\00:24:07.28
a place in heaven.
00:24:07.28\00:24:09.01
He's promising him a place
00:24:09.01\00:24:10.88
with Him eternally.
00:24:10.88\00:24:12.88
And He's saying,
00:24:12.88\00:24:13.88
"You're going to deny Me."
00:24:13.88\00:24:15.62
And He promises this
00:24:15.62\00:24:17.62
before it happens.
00:24:17.62\00:24:19.19
So God's attitude towards us
00:24:19.19\00:24:20.96
is always
00:24:20.96\00:24:22.56
not one of leaving us
00:24:22.56\00:24:24.79
in an identity of
00:24:24.79\00:24:26.76
sinner,
00:24:26.76\00:24:28.23
but in an identity of saved.
00:24:28.23\00:24:30.87
You are my saved child
00:24:30.87\00:24:32.67
and I'm here to save you.
00:24:32.67\00:24:33.94
>> Beyond the sin.
00:24:33.94\00:24:35.24
>> That's right.
00:24:35.24\00:24:36.27
>> Beyond the denial,
00:24:36.27\00:24:37.81
beyond whatever it is.
00:24:37.81\00:24:39.07
>> Yes.
00:24:39.07\00:24:40.11
So this forgiveness
00:24:40.11\00:24:41.81
that God offers to us,
00:24:41.81\00:24:43.81
this cleansing, this,
00:24:43.81\00:24:46.11
He offers it before...
00:24:46.11\00:24:48.48
...and while we're, you know,
00:24:49.58\00:24:50.85
before we even do it.
00:24:50.85\00:24:52.75
He's- so before
00:24:52.75\00:24:55.22
there is sin,
00:24:55.22\00:24:56.62
there was a saviour.
00:24:56.62\00:24:57.76
Before there was
00:24:57.76\00:24:58.96
a hurt, a pain,
00:24:58.96\00:25:01.33
God enabled us to heal
00:25:01.33\00:25:03.33
from that hurt and that pain.
00:25:03.33\00:25:05.53
>> While we were still sinners
00:25:06.40\00:25:08.37
He died for us.
00:25:08.37\00:25:09.74
He knew that
00:25:09.74\00:25:11.04
condition of our heart
00:25:11.04\00:25:12.41
before He even came to do it.
00:25:12.41\00:25:14.68
Absolutely.
00:25:14.68\00:25:15.78
>> Any final thoughts, Bill,
00:25:15.78\00:25:18.05
on guilt and shame?
00:25:18.05\00:25:19.68
>> Well, what I realize
00:25:20.95\00:25:22.35
more than anything else is
00:25:22.35\00:25:23.55
how we all need to
00:25:23.55\00:25:24.82
encourage people
00:25:24.82\00:25:26.65
who are feeling the guilt
00:25:26.65\00:25:28.49
and the regrets of life,
00:25:28.49\00:25:30.56
that we need people to step up
00:25:30.56\00:25:32.66
alongside us
00:25:32.66\00:25:34.66
and we could be that person to
00:25:34.66\00:25:36.87
step up alongside someone else.
00:25:36.87\00:25:39.00
Not minimize,
00:25:39.00\00:25:40.74
accountability is a good thing,
00:25:40.74\00:25:42.80
but step through that and say,
00:25:42.80\00:25:44.81
"Let's go from here."
00:25:44.81\00:25:46.27
We all need a community
00:25:46.27\00:25:47.41
for that.
00:25:47.41\00:25:48.41
That's the best thing
00:25:48.41\00:25:49.51
and the best gift that
00:25:49.51\00:25:50.61
God gives us,
00:25:50.61\00:25:51.65
and the best gift that we can
00:25:51.65\00:25:52.91
give to others
00:25:52.91\00:25:54.08
that we experience and that
00:25:54.08\00:25:55.42
we are friends with and that
00:25:55.42\00:25:56.45
we learn about in life.
00:25:56.45\00:25:57.72
>> Bill, we have come to
00:25:59.85\00:26:01.22
the end of our program.
00:26:01.22\00:26:02.52
I wonder if you could pray
00:26:02.52\00:26:04.19
for our viewers.
00:26:04.19\00:26:05.83
There might be someone
00:26:05.83\00:26:06.96
who's watching who is feeling
00:26:06.96\00:26:09.73
intense guilt
00:26:09.73\00:26:11.50
and is having a hard time
00:26:11.50\00:26:13.07
wrestling with shame and guilt.
00:26:13.07\00:26:15.84
Could you please pray for them?
00:26:15.84\00:26:17.57
>> Absolutely.
00:26:17.57\00:26:19.21
Father in heaven, I am grateful
00:26:19.21\00:26:21.34
for You, we are grateful for You
00:26:21.34\00:26:23.85
and how You want to
00:26:23.85\00:26:25.35
change us
00:26:25.35\00:26:27.45
by freeing us from the things
00:26:27.45\00:26:30.05
that come along with this
00:26:30.05\00:26:32.12
sinful world in which we live.
00:26:32.12\00:26:34.22
Our hearts, the enemy,
00:26:34.22\00:26:36.69
all of it together
00:26:36.69\00:26:38.43
can get us locked up into places
00:26:38.43\00:26:40.40
that You don't ever
00:26:40.40\00:26:41.40
want us to be.
00:26:41.40\00:26:42.46
You want to set us free.
00:26:42.46\00:26:44.43
May we experience that from You.
00:26:44.43\00:26:46.63
And may we be encouraging
00:26:46.63\00:26:48.10
to others to help them
00:26:48.10\00:26:49.37
experience the same freedom
00:26:49.37\00:26:51.41
that You want for all of us.
00:26:51.41\00:26:53.14
Thank You for being
00:26:53.14\00:26:54.18
that kind of friend
00:26:54.18\00:26:55.48
and God to us, I pray.
00:26:55.48\00:26:57.55
In Jesus name, amen.
00:26:57.55\00:27:00.25
>> Amen.
00:27:00.25\00:27:01.58
Bill, thank you once again
00:27:01.58\00:27:03.02
for joining us on
00:27:03.02\00:27:04.09
It Is Written Canada.
00:27:04.09\00:27:05.29
>> It's my privilege
00:27:05.29\00:27:06.32
for being here.
00:27:06.32\00:27:07.29
Thank you for having me.
00:27:07.29\00:27:08.46
>> Friends, our free offer today
00:27:11.13\00:27:12.59
unveils true, life-changing
00:27:12.59\00:27:14.93
stories and it is entitled
00:27:14.93\00:27:17.00
"The Invitation."
00:27:17.00\00:27:18.23
>> The Invitation is a
00:27:19.30\00:27:20.94
power-packed book containing
00:27:20.94\00:27:23.07
true stories of people who were
00:27:23.07\00:27:24.94
destroyed by circumstances
00:27:24.94\00:27:27.38
and rebuilt by God's love.
00:27:27.38\00:27:29.98
>> Before you go, we would like
00:27:31.95\00:27:33.58
to thank all of you who have
00:27:33.58\00:27:35.25
supported the ministry of
00:27:35.25\00:27:36.99
It Is Written Canada
00:27:36.99\00:27:38.02
with your prayers and
00:27:38.02\00:27:39.32
financial contributions.
00:27:39.32\00:27:40.99
Without your support,
00:27:40.99\00:27:42.26
this television ministry
00:27:42.26\00:27:43.76
could not have reached
00:27:43.76\00:27:45.36
so many people
00:27:45.36\00:27:46.86
for so many decades.
00:27:46.86\00:27:48.73
>> Yes, thank you.
00:27:49.60\00:27:51.93
And we would like to invite you
00:27:51.93\00:27:53.87
to follow us on Instagram
00:27:53.87\00:27:55.77
and Facebook and subscribe
00:27:55.77\00:27:58.17
to our YouTube channel,
00:27:58.17\00:28:00.24
and also listen to our podcasts.
00:28:00.24\00:28:03.38
And if you go to our website,
00:28:03.38\00:28:05.55
you can see our latest programs.
00:28:05.55\00:28:08.15
>> Friends, if you want
00:28:11.42\00:28:12.62
the kind of peace and freedom
00:28:12.62\00:28:14.06
that Pastor Bill Spangler
00:28:14.06\00:28:15.82
experienced, we recommend that
00:28:15.82\00:28:17.63
you open this book, the Bible,
00:28:17.63\00:28:20.36
where it is recorded that
00:28:20.36\00:28:21.73
Jesus found his assurance
00:28:21.73\00:28:23.77
to defeat the devil
00:28:23.77\00:28:25.10
through the Word of His Father
00:28:25.10\00:28:27.47
when He declared...
00:28:27.47\00:28:28.74
[uplifting music]
00:28:38.61\00:28:41.58
¤¤
00:28:41.58\00:28:44.55