¤¤
00:00:03.30\00:00:06.27
[theme music]
00:00:06.84\00:00:09.84
¤¤
00:00:09.84\00:00:12.84
[calm music]
00:00:40.80\00:00:43.81
¤¤
00:00:43.81\00:00:46.81
>> Welcome to
00:00:55.65\00:00:56.65
It Is Written Canada.
00:00:56.65\00:00:58.12
Thank you for joining us.
00:00:58.12\00:01:00.56
The world is full of stories
00:01:00.56\00:01:02.36
of people who have been
00:01:02.36\00:01:03.69
badly hurt from the words
00:01:03.69\00:01:05.49
and actions of others, and the
00:01:05.49\00:01:07.96
resulting traumatic stress
00:01:07.96\00:01:10.27
has taken its toll
00:01:10.27\00:01:12.17
on far too many people.
00:01:12.17\00:01:14.50
>> What role does forgiveness
00:01:16.00\00:01:17.84
play in the healing
00:01:17.84\00:01:19.64
we are looking for?
00:01:19.64\00:01:20.64
Or here's another question,
00:01:20.64\00:01:21.74
what is forgiveness?
00:01:21.74\00:01:23.01
Holding on to unforgiveness and
00:01:23.01\00:01:25.95
bitterness about past events
00:01:25.95\00:01:28.32
too often holds us at the place
00:01:28.32\00:01:31.12
of the events that have been
00:01:31.12\00:01:33.72
so hurtful.
00:01:33.72\00:01:35.89
Whereas freedom and
00:01:35.89\00:01:38.43
finding the path forward
00:01:38.43\00:01:40.83
involves a
00:01:40.83\00:01:42.36
healthy understanding
00:01:42.36\00:01:44.33
of forgiveness.
00:01:44.33\00:01:45.13
of forgiveness.
00:01:45.13\00:01:45.93
[RENÉ] Today on
00:01:47.64\00:01:48.50
It Is Written Canada,
00:01:48.50\00:01:48.80
It Is Written Canada,
00:01:49.07\00:01:50.07
our special guest is
00:01:50.07\00:01:51.51
Pastor Bill Spangler,
00:01:51.51\00:01:53.44
who has led churches
00:01:53.44\00:01:54.84
in the maritime provinces,
00:01:54.84\00:01:57.15
British Columbia
00:01:57.15\00:01:58.58
and Alberta,
00:01:58.58\00:02:00.45
retiring from ministry
00:02:00.45\00:02:02.18
in 2020.
00:02:02.18\00:02:03.79
He has a Bachelor's of Theology
00:02:04.95\00:02:07.62
a Master's of Divinity degree,
00:02:07.62\00:02:10.26
and has trained and is certified
00:02:10.26\00:02:12.93
as a family mediator
00:02:12.93\00:02:15.03
and life coach.
00:02:15.03\00:02:16.80
>> Bill is married to
00:02:16.80\00:02:18.00
Gwen Yasako and they are parents
00:02:18.00\00:02:20.87
to two daughters and enjoy
00:02:20.87\00:02:22.70
two grandchildren.
00:02:22.70\00:02:24.04
Bill is the author of the book,
00:02:24.04\00:02:26.37
Lessons From the Wilderness,
00:02:26.37\00:02:28.01
a catalogue of life lessons
00:02:28.01\00:02:30.65
that are useful to anyone
00:02:30.65\00:02:33.18
seeking personal growth
00:02:33.18\00:02:34.82
and skills for making
00:02:34.82\00:02:36.38
relationships work.
00:02:36.38\00:02:38.19
>> Pastor Bill, welcome to
00:02:38.19\00:02:39.92
It Is Written Canada.
00:02:39.92\00:02:41.59
>> It's a pleasure to be
00:02:41.59\00:02:42.59
with you again.
00:02:42.59\00:02:43.43
I enjoy being here.
00:02:43.43\00:02:44.43
>> And we enjoy having you
00:02:44.43\00:02:45.53
with us.
00:02:45.53\00:02:46.53
I'm gonna look at your book
00:02:46.53\00:02:47.60
again, Lessons From the
00:02:47.60\00:02:49.06
Wilderness: Find Your Way Home
00:02:49.06\00:02:51.07
and Finish Well.
00:02:51.07\00:02:52.13
In here, you talk about
00:02:52.13\00:02:53.84
forgiveness, big topic.
00:02:53.84\00:02:55.67
And the
00:02:55.67\00:02:57.51
topic of forgiveness is
00:02:57.51\00:02:59.74
so huge in your journey
00:02:59.74\00:03:02.68
because it leads to healing.
00:03:02.68\00:03:04.55
And I think for most people
00:03:04.55\00:03:07.52
forgiveness is the journey
00:03:07.52\00:03:09.08
to healing.
00:03:09.08\00:03:10.19
>> I talk about healing.
00:03:11.32\00:03:12.79
I mean, I'm talking about
00:03:12.79\00:03:14.26
the healing of forgiveness
00:03:14.26\00:03:15.62
early in the book...
00:03:15.62\00:03:16.89
...because it was such
00:03:18.69\00:03:19.69
a big part of the journey,
00:03:19.69\00:03:22.00
the wilderness journey
00:03:22.00\00:03:23.10
that I had.
00:03:23.10\00:03:24.17
So forgiveness is
00:03:24.17\00:03:25.60
a huge part
00:03:25.60\00:03:27.54
to all of our lives and
00:03:27.54\00:03:28.94
all of our experience.
00:03:28.94\00:03:29.97
We can...
00:03:29.97\00:03:31.01
...experience all kinds of grief
00:03:32.57\00:03:34.44
and pain and bitterness
00:03:34.44\00:03:36.81
and anger and frustration
00:03:36.81\00:03:39.61
in life that all relates
00:03:39.61\00:03:42.25
to forgiveness in some way.
00:03:42.25\00:03:43.79
That's why it's such a
00:03:43.79\00:03:44.82
big topic and it's important
00:03:44.82\00:03:45.89
to talk about.
00:03:45.89\00:03:47.46
So what I had to process
00:03:47.46\00:03:49.56
in my journey was forgiveness
00:03:49.56\00:03:51.39
at three different levels.
00:03:51.39\00:03:53.43
One was the forgiveness
00:03:53.43\00:03:55.60
of God towards me.
00:03:55.60\00:03:57.87
I felt like
00:03:57.87\00:04:00.17
I didn't know
00:04:00.17\00:04:01.80
if He could forgive me.
00:04:01.80\00:04:03.10
So I had to wrestle with that.
00:04:05.07\00:04:07.14
And then I needed forgiveness
00:04:07.14\00:04:08.61
from my wife and my children and
00:04:08.61\00:04:10.18
my friends and my coworkers and
00:04:10.18\00:04:12.11
everybody that I knew
00:04:12.11\00:04:13.31
that knew me.
00:04:13.31\00:04:15.02
That's another level of
00:04:15.02\00:04:16.02
forgiveness that
00:04:16.02\00:04:17.05
I had to process.
00:04:17.05\00:04:18.12
And then there was
00:04:18.12\00:04:19.62
the whole piece about me
00:04:19.62\00:04:20.89
forgiving myself.
00:04:20.89\00:04:22.22
That's a tough thing.
00:04:23.96\00:04:25.13
People pull behind them
00:04:25.13\00:04:27.66
the trailer load of regrets
00:04:27.66\00:04:28.86
for their actions and
00:04:28.86\00:04:30.83
beat themselves up for
00:04:30.83\00:04:32.03
the things that they've done
00:04:32.03\00:04:33.10
and wrestle with it at night and
00:04:33.10\00:04:34.74
wake up at two in the morning,
00:04:34.74\00:04:36.14
and "If only..." and...
00:04:36.14\00:04:37.84
And so forgiveness
00:04:38.21\00:04:39.51
is a huge piece to that.
00:04:39.51\00:04:41.61
I have a friend who says...
00:04:42.74\00:04:44.55
And I think that forgiveness
00:04:47.48\00:04:50.05
is all part of that.
00:04:50.05\00:04:51.39
But it all takes
00:04:58.83\00:05:00.86
the opportunity
00:05:00.86\00:05:02.36
as well as the ability
00:05:02.36\00:05:04.10
to forgive.
00:05:04.10\00:05:05.17
So I had to process forgiveness
00:05:05.17\00:05:06.70
at all three of those levels.
00:05:06.70\00:05:08.20
>> I think the hardest thing
00:05:09.17\00:05:10.37
about all three of those levels
00:05:10.37\00:05:12.01
is that you know
00:05:12.01\00:05:13.94
that God knows
00:05:13.94\00:05:15.31
that you knew
00:05:15.31\00:05:17.05
that you were doing wrong.
00:05:17.05\00:05:18.81
Your family was being hurt
00:05:18.81\00:05:21.02
and, I mean, they were
00:05:21.02\00:05:23.25
trusting you and now you
00:05:23.25\00:05:25.12
hurt them or your church members
00:05:25.12\00:05:27.52
or your colleagues or friends
00:05:27.52\00:05:30.19
and also yourself.
00:05:30.19\00:05:32.03
You knew, you know?
00:05:32.03\00:05:33.36
Sometimes knowing better
00:05:33.36\00:05:34.36
is not the same as doing better.
00:05:34.36\00:05:35.93
And so you do it and you're just
00:05:35.93\00:05:37.17
like, "How...wow...what?"
00:05:37.17\00:05:39.23
you know, "How can I even
00:05:39.23\00:05:40.47
forgive myself?
00:05:40.47\00:05:41.47
I knew better!"
00:05:41.47\00:05:42.44
>> All of that.
00:05:42.44\00:05:43.44
Yeah, all of the above.
00:05:43.44\00:05:45.34
So I had to come to terms with
00:05:45.34\00:05:47.31
what forgiveness really is.
00:05:47.31\00:05:49.18
And so that's
00:05:50.38\00:05:53.05
the journey that I write about
00:05:53.05\00:05:54.58
here, the lesson that I
00:05:54.58\00:05:56.02
write about in my journey,
00:05:56.02\00:05:57.65
that forgiveness is so, so big.
00:05:57.65\00:06:00.72
>> So what
00:06:02.52\00:06:04.46
did you learn
00:06:04.46\00:06:05.96
then, Pastor Bill,
00:06:05.96\00:06:07.40
what forgiveness really is
00:06:07.40\00:06:09.73
for you?
00:06:09.73\00:06:10.60
What did you learn about that?
00:06:10.60\00:06:12.03
>> So I began to realize
00:06:12.80\00:06:15.67
that forgiveness is a gift that
00:06:15.67\00:06:18.57
we give ourselves,
00:06:18.57\00:06:20.98
that if I hold somebody...
00:06:20.98\00:06:23.31
...hostage or at a distance or
00:06:24.21\00:06:26.61
push them away because I'm not
00:06:26.61\00:06:29.42
forgiving you for what
00:06:29.42\00:06:30.65
you did to me.
00:06:30.65\00:06:31.95
Forgiveness...
00:06:33.76\00:06:34.89
...or the lack thereof,
00:06:36.16\00:06:37.46
then, is eating away at my soul.
00:06:37.46\00:06:39.53
So when I say to you, René,
00:06:39.53\00:06:40.93
"I will not forgive you
00:06:40.93\00:06:42.16
for what you did to me,"
00:06:42.16\00:06:44.13
that's a statement about me.
00:06:44.13\00:06:46.00
It's not a statement about you.
00:06:46.00\00:06:47.50
You know, I can make it-
00:06:48.54\00:06:50.07
make me think that I'm
00:06:50.07\00:06:51.71
making it about you,
00:06:51.71\00:06:52.77
but in reality, I'm choosing
00:06:52.77\00:06:54.74
not to forgive so then
00:06:54.74\00:06:56.31
I'm dealing with unforgiveness.
00:06:56.31\00:06:58.45
So we think that we're
00:06:59.38\00:07:00.48
the bigger person and
00:07:00.48\00:07:02.72
the right person to say...
00:07:02.72\00:07:04.42
...I won't forgive you because
00:07:05.85\00:07:07.79
you've hurt me and therefore
00:07:07.79\00:07:09.39
these are my rights and
00:07:09.39\00:07:10.43
this is my
00:07:10.43\00:07:12.53
reason for not forgiving you
00:07:12.53\00:07:14.56
and I have a right to do that.
00:07:14.56\00:07:16.40
All of that just is stirring up
00:07:16.40\00:07:19.03
my soul and anger and bitterness
00:07:19.03\00:07:21.60
within me.
00:07:21.60\00:07:23.14
So one of the big things I
00:07:23.14\00:07:24.91
learned that forgiveness
00:07:24.91\00:07:26.21
was a gift I give myself.
00:07:26.21\00:07:28.91
So somebody maybe in my past
00:07:28.91\00:07:30.71
has hurt me and
00:07:30.71\00:07:32.58
I haven't seen them for a while,
00:07:32.58\00:07:34.68
and they don't even know that
00:07:34.68\00:07:35.95
I'm struggling with something.
00:07:35.95\00:07:37.59
They're going about their life,
00:07:37.59\00:07:38.89
and I'm working away over here
00:07:38.89\00:07:41.76
and grinding on my bitterness
00:07:41.76\00:07:43.32
about what they did to me
00:07:43.32\00:07:44.99
and what happened.
00:07:44.99\00:07:46.66
And my unforgiveness...
00:07:46.66\00:07:49.43
...is all about me.
00:07:50.27\00:07:51.87
It's not about them.
00:07:51.87\00:07:54.07
So that was a huge piece for me
00:07:54.07\00:07:56.00
to recognize that...
00:07:56.00\00:07:57.34
...forgiveness is actually
00:07:58.91\00:08:00.54
a work within myself
00:08:00.54\00:08:02.84
for my own peace of mind.
00:08:02.84\00:08:04.65
And...
00:08:04.65\00:08:05.75
...wow!
00:08:07.15\00:08:08.72
We think forgiveness is a gift
00:08:08.72\00:08:10.12
we're giving someone else.
00:08:10.12\00:08:11.25
In reality, it's an inner work
00:08:11.25\00:08:14.29
for our own betterment
00:08:14.29\00:08:16.12
and our own future.
00:08:16.12\00:08:17.49
>> So when we talk about
00:08:17.49\00:08:18.63
forgiveness...
00:08:18.63\00:08:19.66
...we think about someone being
00:08:20.63\00:08:22.80
set free, and then we realize
00:08:22.80\00:08:24.67
it's me.
00:08:24.67\00:08:25.87
I'm the one who set free because
00:08:25.87\00:08:27.77
I'm not holding on to that.
00:08:27.77\00:08:29.30
>> Sometimes we think that
00:08:29.30\00:08:30.44
forgiveness makes us stronger.
00:08:30.44\00:08:33.58
Does it make us stronger?
00:08:33.58\00:08:35.11
Is it about forgetting?
00:08:35.11\00:08:36.88
Is it about just saying,
00:08:36.88\00:08:39.65
"Hey, this is okay?"
00:08:39.65\00:08:42.28
What is it?
00:08:42.28\00:08:43.55
>> It's not about forgetting.
00:08:44.42\00:08:45.92
There is a phrase that always
00:08:45.92\00:08:48.02
rumbles around in this topic
00:08:48.02\00:08:49.49
that, we gotta forgive
00:08:49.49\00:08:50.63
and forget.
00:08:50.63\00:08:51.83
I don't think it's possible
00:08:52.89\00:08:54.20
to forget some things.
00:08:54.20\00:08:55.83
I don't think that
00:08:55.83\00:08:57.10
we can even do it if we-
00:08:57.10\00:08:59.70
even if we tried.
00:08:59.70\00:09:01.60
And God certainly
00:09:01.60\00:09:02.60
doesn't forget.
00:09:02.60\00:09:03.67
I mean, He can't forget.
00:09:03.67\00:09:05.91
He has a memory that never ends.
00:09:05.91\00:09:08.48
He forgets in the sense
00:09:09.18\00:09:10.65
that He puts our sins
00:09:10.65\00:09:12.08
in the bottom of the sea
00:09:12.08\00:09:13.48
where He doesn't bring them
00:09:13.48\00:09:14.55
back up again.
00:09:14.55\00:09:16.18
But it's not that He doesn't
00:09:16.18\00:09:17.19
remember what we did
00:09:17.19\00:09:18.55
or didn't do.
00:09:18.55\00:09:20.16
So it's not- forgiving and
00:09:20.16\00:09:21.42
forgetting don't necessarily
00:09:21.42\00:09:22.76
go together.
00:09:22.76\00:09:23.83
I think that it's, it works
00:09:24.86\00:09:26.06
like this.
00:09:26.06\00:09:27.40
If I have forgiven you, Mike,
00:09:27.40\00:09:29.16
for something that you did
00:09:29.16\00:09:30.20
to me that was very hurtful,
00:09:30.20\00:09:32.73
if I have forgiven you for that,
00:09:32.73\00:09:34.54
and then somebody says
00:09:34.54\00:09:36.50
"That Mike Lemon, remember him?"
00:09:36.50\00:09:39.54
and I remember that event,
00:09:39.54\00:09:42.44
because I have forgiven you,
00:09:42.44\00:09:44.68
remembering the event
00:09:44.68\00:09:45.81
doesn't bring up the pain
00:09:45.81\00:09:47.75
of whatever that event was.
00:09:47.75\00:09:50.12
I think there's a great story
00:09:50.12\00:09:52.29
that I heard a long time ago
00:09:52.29\00:09:54.06
about Clara Barton, who was the
00:09:54.06\00:09:56.36
person who began the Red Cross.
00:09:56.36\00:09:58.46
And I don't know what
00:09:59.39\00:10:00.43
the story was.
00:10:00.43\00:10:01.66
I don't know what the event was,
00:10:01.66\00:10:02.76
but somebody brought up
00:10:02.76\00:10:04.70
something to her and she said,
00:10:04.70\00:10:07.17
"I don't remember that."
00:10:07.17\00:10:08.40
And they said, "You don't
00:10:09.57\00:10:10.51
remember that?
00:10:10.51\00:10:11.27
What do you mean you don't
00:10:11.27\00:10:12.34
remember that?
00:10:12.34\00:10:13.21
It was such a big story."
00:10:13.21\00:10:15.34
"No, I don't remember that."
00:10:15.34\00:10:17.95
And they were in shock and said,
00:10:17.95\00:10:20.65
"It was in the newspapers.
00:10:20.65\00:10:21.92
It was a scandal.
00:10:21.92\00:10:23.02
It was nationwide."
00:10:23.02\00:10:25.19
And she said, "You know,
00:10:25.19\00:10:26.55
I distinctly remember
00:10:26.55\00:10:28.46
forgetting that."
00:10:28.46\00:10:30.56
And that's what I think
00:10:30.56\00:10:32.09
forgive and forget means.
00:10:32.09\00:10:34.73
I forgive, therefore I am never
00:10:34.73\00:10:37.60
going to bring this up again.
00:10:37.60\00:10:39.53
Yeah, it's there.
00:10:39.53\00:10:41.04
Yeah, the story happened.
00:10:41.04\00:10:42.64
We...
00:10:45.01\00:10:45.97
...remember the story,
00:10:46.74\00:10:48.48
but it doesn't bring
00:10:48.48\00:10:49.54
the same angst or pain
00:10:49.54\00:10:51.08
because forgiveness
00:10:51.08\00:10:53.08
trumps remembering.
00:10:53.08\00:10:55.48
Forgiveness- I remember,
00:10:55.48\00:10:57.25
but I have forgiven.
00:10:57.25\00:10:58.52
Let's talk about this.
00:10:58.52\00:11:00.49
>> That's very helpful.
00:11:00.49\00:11:01.86
And when I think of the Bible
00:11:01.86\00:11:03.02
and what you said, that God
00:11:03.02\00:11:04.99
doesn't forget, oh, it says
00:11:04.99\00:11:06.83
in the Bible that...
00:11:06.83\00:11:07.96
Well, in the Word, if you read
00:11:10.90\00:11:12.97
the Bible, there are records
00:11:12.97\00:11:14.77
of sins.
00:11:14.77\00:11:15.80
You got David killing...
00:11:15.80\00:11:17.94
...Uriah, you know?
00:11:19.37\00:11:21.51
And Uriah
00:11:21.51\00:11:22.78
was a good man.
00:11:22.78\00:11:24.05
And he...
00:11:24.05\00:11:25.05
Can you imagine the two of them
00:11:25.05\00:11:26.68
meeting in heaven?
00:11:26.68\00:11:28.38
So...
00:11:28.38\00:11:29.62
And David, I mean,
00:11:29.62\00:11:31.85
he was the one who ended up
00:11:31.85\00:11:33.89
having him killed.
00:11:33.89\00:11:35.09
And Uriah can read that
00:11:35.09\00:11:36.26
in the Bible.
00:11:36.26\00:11:37.29
But are they going to hold it
00:11:37.29\00:11:39.03
against each other?
00:11:39.03\00:11:40.46
No, they can look at the memory
00:11:40.46\00:11:41.80
of it and it's not painful
00:11:41.80\00:11:43.73
anymore because David's
00:11:43.73\00:11:44.90
a different person.
00:11:44.90\00:11:46.10
He has confessed his sins.
00:11:46.10\00:11:47.60
He has put it right with God.
00:11:47.60\00:11:49.20
And who is Uriah to hold it
00:11:49.20\00:11:50.61
against him?
00:11:50.61\00:11:52.14
Or think of Paul, you know,
00:11:52.14\00:11:54.14
stoning of Stephen, you know?
00:11:54.14\00:11:56.34
Stephen's gonna meet him in
00:11:56.34\00:11:58.15
heaven and embrace him and say,
00:11:58.15\00:11:59.91
"I'm glad you're here."
00:11:59.91\00:12:01.22
Obviously there was a
00:12:01.22\00:12:02.22
change of heart.
00:12:02.22\00:12:03.12
Something happened to you.
00:12:03.12\00:12:04.12
So forgetting is actually
00:12:04.12\00:12:06.79
a good part of...
00:12:06.79\00:12:08.76
...forgiveness is
00:12:09.56\00:12:10.79
not the forgetting, but the
00:12:10.79\00:12:11.76
remembering.
00:12:11.76\00:12:12.66
Because if someone steals
00:12:12.66\00:12:14.03
my wallet, I want to remember..
00:12:14.03\00:12:16.83
...that they have a problem
00:12:17.80\00:12:19.20
in that area, which is a
00:12:19.20\00:12:20.74
loving thing to remember that
00:12:20.74\00:12:22.50
because I don't want to
00:12:22.50\00:12:23.97
leave my wallet on the table
00:12:23.97\00:12:25.87
next time, because I know that
00:12:25.87\00:12:27.34
you might have a weakness
00:12:27.34\00:12:28.88
in that area.
00:12:28.88\00:12:29.94
So I can forgive that, but
00:12:29.94\00:12:31.75
remembering that that is perhaps
00:12:31.75\00:12:33.45
a weakness of yours
00:12:33.45\00:12:34.62
is good for you.
00:12:34.62\00:12:36.08
I'm not gonna put temptation
00:12:36.08\00:12:37.12
in your way.
00:12:37.12\00:12:38.09
>> Absolutely.
00:12:38.09\00:12:39.22
Forgiving doesn't necessarily
00:12:40.16\00:12:41.89
mean that there are
00:12:41.89\00:12:42.89
no consequences.
00:12:42.89\00:12:44.49
Forgiving is a state of mind
00:12:44.49\00:12:46.23
a state of mind
00:12:46.23\00:12:48.03
to bring peace to me.
00:12:48.03\00:12:49.66
But it doesn't mean that we
00:12:49.66\00:12:51.10
erase all boundaries and that,
00:12:51.10\00:12:53.20
you know, there are consequences
00:12:53.20\00:12:55.34
that happen even in
00:12:55.34\00:12:57.57
the midst of forgiving.
00:12:57.57\00:13:00.14
>> So, Pastor Bill,
00:13:00.14\00:13:01.84
is forgiveness when you say
00:13:01.84\00:13:04.15
to someone, "I forgive you
00:13:04.15\00:13:06.01
for what you did,"
00:13:06.01\00:13:07.08
or, "I forgive you for
00:13:07.08\00:13:08.25
hurting me, and it's okay?"
00:13:08.25\00:13:10.09
>> That's a great question, René
00:13:10.95\00:13:13.42
people do equate
00:13:13.42\00:13:14.99
the need to
00:13:14.99\00:13:16.73
forgive with, okay,
00:13:16.73\00:13:18.96
if in order to forgive,
00:13:18.96\00:13:20.16
I have to grind my teeth
00:13:20.16\00:13:21.20
and say, "It's okay
00:13:21.20\00:13:22.83
what you did."
00:13:22.83\00:13:24.07
Those two things do not
00:13:24.60\00:13:25.90
go together.
00:13:25.90\00:13:27.27
forgiveness does not have to
00:13:27.27\00:13:28.94
come to a place where
00:13:28.94\00:13:30.71
I tell you
00:13:30.71\00:13:32.64
it's okay.
00:13:32.64\00:13:34.28
Forgiveness
00:13:34.28\00:13:35.98
stops at a place
00:13:35.98\00:13:37.48
before we have to go there.
00:13:37.48\00:13:39.91
It will never be okay
00:13:39.91\00:13:42.08
what people do to each other.
00:13:42.08\00:13:43.42
It will never be okay
00:13:43.42\00:13:44.39
if you hurt me, it will never
00:13:44.39\00:13:45.59
be okay if I hurt you.
00:13:45.59\00:13:47.39
Whatever I said, whatever action
00:13:47.39\00:13:49.32
I do, whatever happens...
00:13:49.32\00:13:51.49
...that will never be okay.
00:13:52.63\00:13:54.83
However, forgiveness says
00:13:54.83\00:13:57.83
in spite of the fact that you
00:13:57.83\00:13:59.70
did that to me and it was
00:13:59.70\00:14:01.24
very hurtful, I am not going to
00:14:01.24\00:14:03.44
hold this against you.
00:14:03.44\00:14:05.31
I am not going to let it damage
00:14:05.31\00:14:07.08
our relationship.
00:14:07.08\00:14:08.78
I want to step into
00:14:08.78\00:14:10.68
the future together
00:14:10.68\00:14:13.31
or in a healed way.
00:14:13.31\00:14:15.98
If I carry around the bitterness
00:14:15.98\00:14:17.79
of you did that to me, and I
00:14:17.79\00:14:19.59
remind myself about that
00:14:19.59\00:14:21.39
in the night or in the morning
00:14:21.39\00:14:22.76
or every day, or every time
00:14:22.76\00:14:23.99
I see you.
00:14:23.99\00:14:24.89
Yeah, there goes that Mike,
00:14:24.89\00:14:26.09
but I remember when
00:14:26.09\00:14:27.50
he stole money out of my pocket
00:14:27.50\00:14:30.47
or did this or whatever it is
00:14:30.47\00:14:32.03
that he did, and I remember that
00:14:32.03\00:14:33.77
all the time, I'm just
00:14:33.77\00:14:35.77
making myself a
00:14:35.77\00:14:38.01
bitter, miserable person.
00:14:38.01\00:14:40.94
And I know people who have
00:14:40.94\00:14:42.81
spent their lives that way.
00:14:42.81\00:14:44.48
I recently heard about somebody
00:14:44.48\00:14:46.41
that I knew from a child.
00:14:46.41\00:14:48.65
She was actually a relative
00:14:48.65\00:14:50.12
of mine that I didn't ever
00:14:50.12\00:14:52.45
really know, but...
00:14:52.45\00:14:53.76
...she was very hurt
00:14:55.16\00:14:56.99
in a relationship situation
00:14:56.99\00:14:58.53
that happened.
00:14:58.53\00:14:59.73
And I never saw her for years.
00:14:59.73\00:15:01.76
In fact, I never saw her again
00:15:01.76\00:15:03.10
after I was a little child.
00:15:03.10\00:15:05.30
But recently I heard from
00:15:05.30\00:15:07.64
her granddaughter that
00:15:07.64\00:15:09.34
before she died, she said,
00:15:09.34\00:15:12.11
"I wasted my life
00:15:12.11\00:15:14.11
in bitterness."
00:15:14.11\00:15:15.98
And I think it's so tragic
00:15:15.98\00:15:17.38
that people remember the hurt
00:15:17.38\00:15:19.85
and remember the hurt and
00:15:19.85\00:15:21.22
remember the hurt and remember
00:15:21.22\00:15:22.72
the hurt.
00:15:22.72\00:15:23.62
And I can never say, it's okay,
00:15:23.62\00:15:25.35
so I can't forgive you.
00:15:25.35\00:15:26.65
No, it's not okay.
00:15:27.96\00:15:29.72
But I can still choose
00:15:29.72\00:15:30.89
to forgive.
00:15:30.89\00:15:32.66
And I believe that
00:15:32.66\00:15:35.10
healing of our lives and healing
00:15:35.10\00:15:37.83
of relationships cross paths
00:15:37.83\00:15:40.10
with forgiveness
00:15:40.10\00:15:42.20
that were never going to heal
00:15:42.20\00:15:43.97
until forgiveness comes
00:15:43.97\00:15:45.14
into the picture somewhere.
00:15:45.14\00:15:47.24
So, like you, I have heard
00:15:47.24\00:15:48.91
outstanding stories of people
00:15:48.91\00:15:51.01
who have been hurt badly.
00:15:51.01\00:15:53.85
Maybe their children murdered,
00:15:53.85\00:15:55.45
or maybe their
00:15:55.45\00:15:57.45
spouse is murdered.
00:15:57.45\00:15:59.29
That beautiful story of the lady
00:15:59.29\00:16:01.32
from South Africa whose husband
00:16:01.32\00:16:03.06
and son were tragically murdered
00:16:03.06\00:16:05.96
and burned and
00:16:05.96\00:16:08.20
in the trial,
00:16:08.20\00:16:09.80
she said, "I forgive the man
00:16:09.80\00:16:12.67
who did it, and the only thing
00:16:12.67\00:16:14.80
I want is for him to come
00:16:14.80\00:16:16.57
to see me once a week so that
00:16:16.57\00:16:18.01
I can love on him
00:16:18.01\00:16:19.54
like my own son."
00:16:19.54\00:16:21.18
And that kind of forgiveness
00:16:21.18\00:16:23.08
comes from a place of...
00:16:23.08\00:16:25.18
...from God only, because the
00:16:26.38\00:16:28.35
human heart is not willing
00:16:28.35\00:16:29.58
to do that.
00:16:29.58\00:16:30.75
So of course she remembers
00:16:30.75\00:16:32.55
and it's not okay what he did,
00:16:32.55\00:16:34.72
but she wanted to forgive and
00:16:34.72\00:16:36.89
step into a better place.
00:16:36.89\00:16:39.36
>> What if the person
00:16:39.36\00:16:40.66
doesn't ask for forgiveness?
00:16:40.66\00:16:42.30
What if they never say
00:16:42.30\00:16:43.33
they're sorry?
00:16:43.33\00:16:44.33
Can you still forgive?
00:16:44.33\00:16:45.73
>> Absolutely.
00:16:45.73\00:16:46.74
Forgiveness is a choice.
00:16:46.74\00:16:48.87
I choose to not bring this up
00:16:48.87\00:16:51.27
to you again, even though you've
00:16:51.27\00:16:53.38
never brought it up to me,
00:16:53.38\00:16:54.61
even though you have never asked
00:16:54.61\00:16:55.88
me about it, I choose to
00:16:55.88\00:16:58.18
not dwell on this.
00:16:58.18\00:16:59.35
I choose to not let it stay
00:16:59.35\00:17:00.95
between us.
00:17:00.95\00:17:01.98
I think about
00:17:03.55\00:17:05.62
the opportunity to forgive.
00:17:05.62\00:17:08.22
Jesus said that we should
00:17:08.22\00:17:09.46
love our enemies,
00:17:09.46\00:17:11.16
pray for them
00:17:11.16\00:17:12.93
that despitefully use us.
00:17:12.93\00:17:14.83
Wow.
00:17:16.36\00:17:17.33
That's...that takes a gift
00:17:18.40\00:17:20.44
from heaven, too,
00:17:20.44\00:17:22.20
to kneel and...
00:17:22.20\00:17:23.87
...bring that person's name up
00:17:25.84\00:17:27.24
in prayer and ask God
00:17:27.24\00:17:28.71
to bless them.
00:17:28.71\00:17:29.78
I mean, really?
00:17:29.78\00:17:31.51
Bless them?
00:17:31.51\00:17:32.85
And that's what He asks us
00:17:33.88\00:17:35.75
to do, because he knows
00:17:35.75\00:17:37.49
it's good for us,
00:17:37.49\00:17:38.92
for our peace of mind,
00:17:38.92\00:17:40.59
for our joy,
00:17:40.59\00:17:43.16
for our freedom.
00:17:43.16\00:17:45.06
Someone has said, you've
00:17:47.60\00:17:48.60
probably heard this statement,
00:17:48.60\00:17:49.66
that unforgiveness
00:17:49.66\00:17:51.83
is like taking poison
00:17:51.83\00:17:53.80
and hoping that you get sick.
00:17:53.80\00:17:56.24
So I drink the bitterness and I
00:17:56.24\00:17:58.07
drink the poison and I drink
00:17:58.07\00:17:59.54
the anger hoping that you will
00:17:59.54\00:18:02.11
suffer for whatever it is that
00:18:02.11\00:18:04.31
you did for me or to me.
00:18:04.31\00:18:06.41
And it just doesn't work
00:18:06.41\00:18:07.98
that way.
00:18:07.98\00:18:09.18
>> So if I forgive someone,
00:18:09.18\00:18:12.22
I'm letting them off the hook?
00:18:12.22\00:18:14.09
>> Yeah, in reality that's what
00:18:15.89\00:18:17.46
we're doing.
00:18:17.46\00:18:18.53
We're letting them off our hook.
00:18:18.53\00:18:21.26
God says,
00:18:21.26\00:18:23.13
"Justice is mine."
00:18:23.13\00:18:25.87
And He will deal with
00:18:25.87\00:18:27.20
all things at some point
00:18:27.20\00:18:29.27
in better ways than I could.
00:18:29.27\00:18:31.07
I'm glad that, and you should
00:18:31.07\00:18:32.87
be glad, that I'm not the judge
00:18:32.87\00:18:34.71
of you or the world, because
00:18:34.71\00:18:37.01
my human heart wouldn't
00:18:37.01\00:18:38.15
get it right.
00:18:38.15\00:18:38.98
But God will always
00:18:38.98\00:18:40.02
get it right.
00:18:40.02\00:18:40.95
His justice and His judging
00:18:40.95\00:18:43.12
is holy, so it can't be wrong.
00:18:43.12\00:18:45.42
But yes, we let them off
00:18:46.29\00:18:47.59
our hook.
00:18:47.59\00:18:48.76
"God, I am not going to worry
00:18:48.76\00:18:51.33
about this situation any longer.
00:18:51.33\00:18:54.10
It's now Yours."
00:18:54.10\00:18:55.93
I think of the story of Joseph
00:18:55.93\00:18:57.53
and his brothers who put him
00:18:57.53\00:19:00.30
in the pit and then sold him
00:19:00.30\00:19:02.04
to the Ishmaelites traders
00:19:02.04\00:19:03.61
and off to Egypt he went.
00:19:03.61\00:19:05.34
He got down there, he went
00:19:05.34\00:19:06.54
to prison for something
00:19:06.54\00:19:07.54
he wasn't guilty of.
00:19:07.54\00:19:08.94
He- life wasn't good.
00:19:08.94\00:19:11.98
And then suddenly he's the
00:19:11.98\00:19:13.25
prime minister of Egypt.
00:19:13.25\00:19:15.25
And lo and behold, his brothers
00:19:15.25\00:19:17.45
come to buy grain,
00:19:17.45\00:19:19.09
and he sees them
00:19:19.09\00:19:20.16
bowing before him.
00:19:20.16\00:19:22.12
He could have evoked
00:19:22.12\00:19:24.76
all kinds of punishment on them
00:19:24.76\00:19:26.80
right then and there.
00:19:26.80\00:19:28.80
Instead, he sent them home,
00:19:28.80\00:19:30.87
knowing they'd be back again.
00:19:30.87\00:19:33.30
"Is your father alive?"
00:19:33.30\00:19:35.50
"Oh, we have another brother."
00:19:35.50\00:19:36.67
"Oh, how is he?"
00:19:36.67\00:19:37.74
you know?
00:19:37.74\00:19:38.77
He was so engrossed in
00:19:38.77\00:19:40.48
hearing about the family
00:19:40.48\00:19:42.81
and knowing who he was
00:19:42.81\00:19:43.88
dealing with.
00:19:43.88\00:19:44.85
And then they came the next
00:19:44.85\00:19:45.88
time and he said, "I am Joseph.
00:19:45.88\00:19:48.55
Don't worry.
00:19:48.55\00:19:49.52
God brought me here so that
00:19:49.52\00:19:50.69
I could take care of you.
00:19:50.69\00:19:51.85
Go get our father.
00:19:51.85\00:19:53.02
Move him here.
00:19:53.02\00:19:54.49
Everything will be okay."
00:19:54.49\00:19:55.72
He was letting them off
00:19:55.72\00:19:56.93
the hook.
00:19:56.93\00:19:57.86
Absolutely.
00:19:57.86\00:19:59.29
But it was something that
00:19:59.29\00:20:01.33
we still tell the story about
00:20:01.33\00:20:03.06
because of how gracious he was.
00:20:03.06\00:20:04.97
>> They meant it for evil,
00:20:06.30\00:20:08.00
but God meant it for good
00:20:08.00\00:20:10.01
and brought about that good.
00:20:10.01\00:20:11.44
>> Yes.
00:20:11.44\00:20:12.07
[MIKE] And I think of Jesus
00:20:12.07\00:20:13.27
hanging on the cross.
00:20:13.27\00:20:14.31
He was saying, "Father,
00:20:14.31\00:20:15.71
forgive them."
00:20:15.71\00:20:17.08
They weren't asking for
00:20:17.08\00:20:18.25
forgiveness.
00:20:18.25\00:20:19.48
They weren't saying, "I'm sorry
00:20:19.48\00:20:21.15
that I nailed to the cross,"
00:20:21.15\00:20:22.58
but He was still asking
00:20:22.58\00:20:24.89
for their forgiveness and
00:20:24.89\00:20:26.02
willing to give forgiveness
00:20:26.02\00:20:27.79
because He knew their ignorance,
00:20:27.79\00:20:29.52
but He doesn't hold that
00:20:29.52\00:20:30.89
against us when we sin.
00:20:30.89\00:20:32.69
>> Right.
00:20:32.69\00:20:33.96
I think that forgiveness...
00:20:33.96\00:20:35.43
...other people don't ask
00:20:37.20\00:20:38.37
for forgiveness.
00:20:38.37\00:20:39.47
We do it because forgiveness
00:20:39.47\00:20:41.20
is an internal work.
00:20:41.20\00:20:42.97
It's a work on our own
00:20:42.97\00:20:45.01
well-being.
00:20:45.01\00:20:46.84
Books have been written on the
00:20:46.84\00:20:49.21
health of people who hang on to
00:20:49.21\00:20:52.08
bitterness versus the health
00:20:52.08\00:20:53.45
of people who forgive, and that
00:20:53.45\00:20:55.48
it's actually a physiological
00:20:55.48\00:20:57.55
benefit to us to forgive,
00:20:57.55\00:21:00.22
to let things stay,
00:21:00.22\00:21:02.19
to set things down.
00:21:02.19\00:21:04.89
Like I just said, this lady,
00:21:04.89\00:21:06.19
"I wasted my time.
00:21:06.19\00:21:07.96
I wasted my life in bitterness."
00:21:07.96\00:21:10.50
What a tragic thing to say
00:21:10.50\00:21:12.50
on your deathbed.
00:21:12.50\00:21:13.67
>> And the person that you're
00:21:14.44\00:21:15.54
not willing to forgive probably
00:21:15.54\00:21:17.17
doesn't even know.
00:21:17.17\00:21:18.24
>> May not even- probably
00:21:18.24\00:21:19.61
doesn't even know.
00:21:19.61\00:21:20.71
[calm music]
00:21:21.24\00:21:24.25
¤¤
00:21:24.25\00:21:27.18
>> So, Bill, what happens
00:21:44.63\00:21:46.20
if I don't forgive?
00:21:46.20\00:21:48.64
>> Well, the reality is,
00:21:50.07\00:21:51.97
unforgiveness is the
00:21:51.97\00:21:53.71
downhill slide into
00:21:53.71\00:21:55.94
victimhood,
00:21:55.94\00:21:57.41
where we start to live as...
00:21:57.41\00:21:59.71
...someone who has been damaged
00:22:01.08\00:22:02.82
beyond healing, I can- there's
00:22:02.82\00:22:05.82
nothing better for me because
00:22:05.82\00:22:07.69
you did this to me.
00:22:07.69\00:22:09.26
And I start to live in
00:22:09.26\00:22:10.26
that place where everything...
00:22:10.26\00:22:12.29
...comes back to that event
00:22:13.63\00:22:15.56
or that experience that I had
00:22:15.56\00:22:17.70
with you.
00:22:17.70\00:22:18.77
I may talk about this, but I'm
00:22:18.77\00:22:21.04
gonna bring it around to you
00:22:21.04\00:22:22.30
because I'm a victim of you.
00:22:22.30\00:22:23.87
My life is worse because of you.
00:22:23.87\00:22:26.01
I hurt because of you.
00:22:26.01\00:22:27.98
I live in this place
00:22:27.98\00:22:30.05
because of you,
00:22:30.05\00:22:31.18
and I am the victim.
00:22:31.18\00:22:34.05
If I don't forgive,
00:22:34.05\00:22:35.48
life is a dreary place.
00:22:35.48\00:22:38.45
I think about the phrase
00:22:38.45\00:22:40.12
that says, "Well, if I don't
00:22:40.12\00:22:41.76
forgive you, I let you live
00:22:41.76\00:22:44.13
rent free in my head."
00:22:44.13\00:22:46.13
So if somebody lives rent free,
00:22:46.13\00:22:48.13
they enjoy the heat, they enjoy
00:22:48.13\00:22:49.86
the lights, they enjoy the
00:22:49.86\00:22:51.00
water, they enjoy everything
00:22:51.00\00:22:53.44
and they don't pay anything.
00:22:53.44\00:22:54.84
If you live rent free
00:22:54.84\00:22:55.90
in my head, you take my joy,
00:22:55.90\00:22:58.57
you take my happiness,
00:22:58.57\00:23:00.21
you take my peace of mind.
00:23:00.21\00:23:01.94
And you are the one who is
00:23:01.94\00:23:04.15
stealing that from me.
00:23:04.15\00:23:06.08
And I don't get any benefit from
00:23:06.08\00:23:09.12
the fact that you live there.
00:23:09.12\00:23:11.19
So not forgiving
00:23:11.19\00:23:13.79
is a dreary life.
00:23:13.79\00:23:15.79
>> So, Pastor Bill, can we go
00:23:15.79\00:23:17.73
back to those three levels
00:23:17.73\00:23:19.86
of forgiveness, and can you
00:23:19.86\00:23:22.23
share with us your process
00:23:22.23\00:23:24.50
or a process of how we can
00:23:24.50\00:23:26.43
follow through with those
00:23:26.43\00:23:27.54
three levels of forgiveness?
00:23:27.54\00:23:29.27
>> Yeah, so this is my journey
00:23:29.27\00:23:31.91
through all three of those.
00:23:31.91\00:23:33.04
With God, needing the
00:23:33.04\00:23:35.48
forgiveness from God,
00:23:35.48\00:23:37.65
I had assurance
00:23:37.65\00:23:39.81
from the words in the Bible
00:23:39.81\00:23:42.32
that God forgives.
00:23:42.32\00:23:44.35
But in my darkest hours,
00:23:44.35\00:23:46.55
I wasn't sure that He could
00:23:46.55\00:23:47.69
forgive me.
00:23:47.69\00:23:48.96
I- there was a sense that
00:23:49.59\00:23:51.96
I know that you like to forgive,
00:23:51.96\00:23:53.66
I know the Bible says, I know
00:23:53.66\00:23:55.56
there's a theory of forgiveness,
00:23:55.56\00:23:57.50
but personally, I needed
00:23:57.50\00:24:00.47
to be assured that...
00:24:00.47\00:24:01.94
...my name was on
00:24:03.61\00:24:04.77
His forgiveness, too.
00:24:04.77\00:24:06.07
So I read stories of people who
00:24:06.07\00:24:08.18
were forgiven in the Bible.
00:24:08.18\00:24:09.78
I think about
00:24:11.95\00:24:14.15
the man let down
00:24:14.15\00:24:16.08
through the roof.
00:24:16.08\00:24:17.19
God forgave him
00:24:17.19\00:24:19.22
without him even asking.
00:24:19.22\00:24:21.22
He came to get his legs healed,
00:24:21.22\00:24:23.26
God went for his heart.
00:24:23.26\00:24:24.73
There's just so many stories
00:24:26.26\00:24:27.73
of where people, where God said,
00:24:27.73\00:24:30.17
"I forgive you."
00:24:30.17\00:24:31.50
You just mentioned the people
00:24:31.50\00:24:33.17
crucifying Him.
00:24:33.17\00:24:34.64
"Father, forgive them.
00:24:34.64\00:24:35.77
They don't know what
00:24:35.77\00:24:36.67
they're doing."
00:24:36.67\00:24:37.61
The thief on the cross
00:24:37.61\00:24:38.61
beside Him.
00:24:38.61\00:24:39.71
"Be at peace.
00:24:40.58\00:24:41.51
You will be with me
00:24:41.51\00:24:42.51
in Paradise."
00:24:42.51\00:24:43.41
He loved to forgive.
00:24:43.41\00:24:45.61
And so then I begin to read
00:24:45.61\00:24:47.02
those stories and put myself
00:24:47.02\00:24:49.55
in their place and think,
00:24:49.55\00:24:52.39
well, would He say that to me?
00:24:52.39\00:24:54.79
I guess He probably would.
00:24:54.79\00:24:56.49
And when I began to personalize
00:24:56.49\00:24:58.26
those stories myself,
00:24:58.26\00:25:00.40
that's when I could say,
00:25:00.40\00:25:03.33
"Okay, I will receive
00:25:03.33\00:25:04.90
your forgiveness."
00:25:04.90\00:25:06.47
>> Bill, thank you so much
00:25:06.47\00:25:07.57
for sharing that with us.
00:25:07.57\00:25:08.60
We've come to the end of
00:25:08.60\00:25:09.57
our time together.
00:25:09.57\00:25:10.77
I wonder if you could pray
00:25:10.77\00:25:11.81
for our viewers.
00:25:11.81\00:25:13.81
Maybe there's someone who's
00:25:13.81\00:25:14.88
holding on to some kind of
00:25:14.88\00:25:16.61
bitterness.
00:25:16.61\00:25:17.41
They're struggling to be able to
00:25:17.41\00:25:19.35
forgive or to accept God's
00:25:19.35\00:25:21.45
forgiveness of them,
00:25:21.45\00:25:22.48
forgiving themselves.
00:25:22.48\00:25:24.12
Could you pray for them
00:25:24.12\00:25:25.15
right now?
00:25:25.15\00:25:26.19
>> I sure will, thank you.
00:25:26.19\00:25:27.82
Dear God in heaven,
00:25:27.82\00:25:29.86
the human heart,
00:25:29.86\00:25:31.86
with sin in it...
00:25:31.86\00:25:33.29
with sin in it...
00:25:33.29\00:25:33.96
...struggles with all kinds of
00:25:35.13\00:25:36.63
emotion and we do things
00:25:36.63\00:25:39.00
or people do things to us,
00:25:39.00\00:25:41.07
and we struggle to
00:25:41.07\00:25:43.91
process it in a healthy way.
00:25:43.91\00:25:46.37
The enemy sits on our shoulders
00:25:46.37\00:25:48.34
and reminds us of the pain
00:25:48.34\00:25:50.38
that others have brought.
00:25:50.38\00:25:51.85
May we break through all of that
00:25:51.85\00:25:54.28
to a place of peace where You
00:25:54.28\00:25:56.42
can speak to us and say,
00:25:56.42\00:25:58.29
"I forgive you.
00:25:58.29\00:26:00.29
Do forgive them, too."
00:26:00.29\00:26:02.79
We know that when that happens,
00:26:02.79\00:26:04.69
peace reigns, joy comes back
00:26:04.69\00:26:07.40
and the future is bright.
00:26:07.40\00:26:09.33
So for anyone who is struggling
00:26:09.33\00:26:11.00
and holding on to anger
00:26:11.00\00:26:12.27
and bitterness, I just pray
00:26:12.27\00:26:13.50
for them that they would find
00:26:13.50\00:26:15.40
the softening presence
00:26:15.40\00:26:16.94
of the Holy Spirit to speak
00:26:16.94\00:26:18.84
to them and help them to see
00:26:18.84\00:26:20.74
the beauty of stepping through
00:26:20.74\00:26:22.54
that into a place of freedom.
00:26:22.54\00:26:25.21
Thank You for loving us the way
00:26:25.21\00:26:26.78
You do, and we love You, too.
00:26:26.78\00:26:28.45
In Jesus name, amen.
00:26:28.45\00:26:30.49
>> Amen.
00:26:30.49\00:26:31.69
>> Pastor Bill, thank you
00:26:31.69\00:26:32.82
so much for joining us on
00:26:32.82\00:26:34.29
It Is Written Canada again.
00:26:34.29\00:26:36.02
>> It's my privilege and I'm
00:26:36.59\00:26:37.73
glad that I can be here to share
00:26:37.73\00:26:39.26
some of the journey that I've
00:26:39.26\00:26:40.46
been on.
00:26:40.46\00:26:41.43
>> Wherever you find yourself
00:26:42.63\00:26:44.57
on your spiritual journey,
00:26:44.57\00:26:46.47
whether you are just testing
00:26:46.47\00:26:48.07
the waters of belief in God,
00:26:48.07\00:26:50.74
of the Bible, or a long-time
00:26:50.74\00:26:53.64
churchgoer, our free offer,
00:26:53.64\00:26:57.01
Daring To Ask For More, will
00:26:57.01\00:26:59.25
inspire and challenge you
00:26:59.25\00:27:02.05
to a life of faith and purpose.
00:27:02.05\00:27:05.02
>> Not only will Daring To
00:27:05.39\00:27:07.02
Ask For More challenge you
00:27:07.02\00:27:08.96
to pray as you've never prayed
00:27:08.96\00:27:10.29
before, but it will give you
00:27:10.29\00:27:12.63
extremely practical tools and
00:27:12.63\00:27:14.76
specific pointers on how to
00:27:14.76\00:27:16.70
develop the spiritual discipline
00:27:16.70\00:27:19.63
needed as you open your heart
00:27:19.63\00:27:21.94
to Jesus more intimately
00:27:21.94\00:27:24.51
each and every day.
00:27:24.51\00:27:25.91
>> Before you go, we would like
00:27:27.34\00:27:29.21
to thank all of you who have
00:27:29.21\00:27:31.08
supported the ministry of
00:27:31.08\00:27:32.61
It Is Written Canada
00:27:32.61\00:27:34.35
with your prayers and
00:27:34.35\00:27:35.92
financial contributions.
00:27:35.92\00:27:38.25
Without your support,
00:27:38.25\00:27:40.22
this television ministry
00:27:40.22\00:27:42.42
could not have reached
00:27:42.42\00:27:44.16
so many people
00:27:44.16\00:27:46.03
for so many decades.
00:27:46.03\00:27:48.43
>> Yes, thank you.
00:27:48.43\00:27:49.90
And we would like to invite you
00:27:49.90\00:27:52.07
to follow us on Instagram and
00:27:52.07\00:27:53.87
Facebook and subscribe to our
00:27:53.87\00:27:56.30
YouTube channel, and also listen
00:27:56.30\00:27:58.47
to our podcasts.
00:27:58.47\00:27:59.77
And if you go to our website,
00:27:59.77\00:28:01.58
you can see our latest programs.
00:28:01.58\00:28:04.31
[RENÉ] Friends, if you want
00:28:06.35\00:28:06.88
[RENÉ] Friends, if you want
00:28:07.05\00:28:08.08
the kind of healing
00:28:08.08\00:28:09.45
Pastor Bill Spangler
00:28:09.45\00:28:10.82
experienced, we recommend you
00:28:10.82\00:28:13.12
open the Bible
00:28:13.12\00:28:15.02
where it is recorded that
00:28:15.02\00:28:16.62
Jesus found His assurance
00:28:16.62\00:28:18.56
to defeat the devil through
00:28:18.56\00:28:20.50
the Word of His Father
00:28:20.50\00:28:22.40
when He declared...
00:28:22.40\00:28:23.80
[uplifting music]
00:28:35.14\00:28:38.15
¤¤
00:28:38.15\00:28:41.12