い い
00:00:00.80\00:00:12.01
>> It has stood the test of
time. God's book -- the Bible.
00:00:12.04\00:00:18.91
Still relevant in today's
complex world. "It Is Written"
00:00:18.91\00:00:26.96
-- Sharing messages
of hope around the world.
00:00:26.96\00:00:31.89
い い
00:00:31.93\00:00:42.10
>> Thank you for joining
us on "It Is Written Canada."
00:00:42.10\00:00:45.44
We are visiting
Pugwash, Nova Scotia.
00:00:45.44\00:00:47.98
And if you've never been here,
this is a place that you need
00:00:47.98\00:00:51.75
to put on your bucket
list. Beautiful beaches,
00:00:51.75\00:00:54.35
beautiful shoreline right here
along Canada's Atlantic coast.
00:00:54.35\00:00:59.09
There was a speaker I used to
listen to. His name was Morris
00:00:59.12\00:01:03.53
Venden. And as a young man, he
really spoke to my heart. He
made the Gospel clear, very
00:01:03.53\00:01:09.30
precise, and very practical. And
I remember struggling, kind of
feeling like a yo-yo
00:01:09.30\00:01:15.57
Christian. My Christianity
was up and down and never just
00:01:15.57\00:01:21.51
steady, and living it as a
lifestyle that was, you know, a
connection with God that I
00:01:21.51\00:01:27.05
really wanted. And there was
something about Morris Venden
speaking that just really spoke
00:01:27.05\00:01:30.89
to me personally and very
clearly. And someone gave me a
tape back in the days when
00:01:30.89\00:01:36.26
people used to list the cassette
tapes and I would listen to it
in the car, and it really spoke
00:01:36.26\00:01:41.83
to my heart. And today we have
the privilege of having with us
Lee Venden, his son, who is an
00:01:41.83\00:01:49.94
international speaker with his
wife Marji. And they travel
around and share the Gospel, and
00:01:49.94\00:01:56.31
really are revivalists, so Lee,
thank you for being here with
us, and we just want to talk
00:01:56.31\00:02:03.18
about yourself and what you're
doing and also your father and
how Morris Venden really made an
00:02:03.18\00:02:09.32
impact on so many people and how
did that work? >> Well, I know
00:02:09.32\00:02:15.33
he also made a very amazing
impact in my life. And I
remember listening to one of his
00:02:15.33\00:02:21.84
talks, and he mentioned earlier
on in his ministry that he had
00:02:21.84\00:02:26.47
some struggles as a young
pastor. Can you tell us about
those? >> Yeah, yeah.
00:02:26.47\00:02:30.55
Actually, my father grew
up in a Christian household.
00:02:30.58\00:02:34.48
His father was a pastor, his
uncle was a pastor, his brother
00:02:34.48\00:02:37.25
became a pastor, his cousins
were pastors, and he involved
00:02:37.25\00:02:40.42
himself in Christian education
all the way through his learning
00:02:40.42\00:02:43.39
years and so on.
00:02:43.39\00:02:44.86
And then after he got married
and started having a family of
his own, he himself was a
00:02:44.89\00:02:48.93
pastor. But at the age of 28,
he was struggling with bleeding
00:02:48.93\00:02:54.27
ulcers, and it's kind of unusual
to have stress in your life at
that early age that
00:02:54.27\00:02:58.61
would cause such a condition,
but it was true. And the reason
00:02:58.61\00:03:03.98
he had them was because as a
pastor, I guess you could say it
this, way he knew a lot of
00:03:03.98\00:03:10.15
biblical knowledge, had a lot of
Bible information, and he could
preach doctrinal sermons and so
00:03:10.15\00:03:16.42
on, but he didn't know Jesus for
himself. And at the end of each
00:03:16.42\00:03:20.56
sermon when he was greeting the
parishioners in the foyer
afterwards, there was
00:03:20.56\00:03:24.37
a little woman with white hair
that would shake his hand and
00:03:24.37\00:03:28.30
she would say, "That was a fine
sermon, Pastor, and it will be
even better when you know Jesus
00:03:28.30\00:03:33.54
for yourself." >> Wow. >> And
it bothered him that she could
00:03:33.54\00:03:37.38
tell. >> It would bother me.
[ Laughter ] >> Did she mean it?
00:03:37.38\00:03:41.08
You know, "I just want to..." >>
She was a kind person, and she
wasn't being malicious
00:03:41.08\00:03:46.42
or vindictive or anything, but
my dad struggled with that, and
it bothered him that it
00:03:46.42\00:03:52.39
showed. >> It showed,
yeah. She saw through.
00:03:52.39\00:03:55.70
>> Yeah. >> Yeah, and --
wow. People are seeing this.
00:03:55.70\00:03:59.23
>> Yeah, and I think that
dichotomy of trying to be a
pastor and pretend to talk about
00:03:59.23\00:04:04.87
someone you don't really know as
though you do, at least from my
dad and his particular
00:04:04.87\00:04:09.68
conscience and the way he was
hardwired, that was a disconnect
that he couldn't keep living
00:04:09.68\00:04:14.98
with. >> Mm-hmm. I can imagine.
>> Yeah. And so he came to a
00:04:14.98\00:04:19.62
point where he decided he was
going to give it up, but before
00:04:19.62\00:04:24.86
giving it up, it was right that
time they were in Oregon, the
state of Oregon in the U.S., and
00:04:24.86\00:04:33.10
they were having what is called
a camp meeting -- kind of a
convocation rally kind of a camp
00:04:33.10\00:04:39.04
meeting thing, and all the
pastors of that region were
called in to set things up in
00:04:39.04\00:04:44.31
advance. Camp pitch, they called
it. >> Mm-hmm. >> And so my dad
00:04:44.31\00:04:47.62
thought, "Maybe I can sneak in
some counsel without anybody
realizing that I'm the needy,
00:04:47.62\00:04:52.45
you know, customer. So, while
he's pitching tents with another
00:04:52.45\00:04:55.89
pastor, he says to that guy, "If
one of your church members wants
to ask you how do I really
00:04:55.89\00:05:02.90
become and remain a Christian
--" >> So he was actually asking
00:05:02.90\00:05:06.30
that for himself. >> Exactly,
it's his question. He hoped they
didn't catch on, but he said,
00:05:06.30\00:05:10.51
you know, "If they asked you
'How do I become and remain a
Christian,' what do you tell
00:05:10.51\00:05:13.64
them?" >> Yeah. >> Of course,
he's all ears. And the pastor
00:05:13.64\00:05:17.68
that he asked the first question
to said, "Well, I tell him it's
very simple. You just need to
00:05:17.68\00:05:21.32
give your heart to the Lord." >>
And my dad was like, "Thank you
00:05:21.32\00:05:26.55
very much. I have no idea what
that means." >> Mm-hmm. >> Give
your heart to the Lord.
00:05:26.55\00:05:30.23
It's a phrase that Christians
throw around a lot. >> Yes.
00:05:30.23\00:05:33.06
>> But to get practical, how do
you give your heart to the Lord?
It's intangible, vague.
00:05:33.06\00:05:37.47
>> It's intangible. You can't
give your physical heart to the
00:05:37.47\00:05:40.14
Lord. >> Yeah, you're obviously
not gonna do that. >> Yeah.
00:05:40.14\00:05:42.50
>> So, he didn't -- you know, he
said, "Thank you very much," and
he worked with another pastor
00:05:42.50\00:05:46.81
an hour or two later in the day
and he thought, "Well, I'll try
it on him," so he said,
00:05:46.81\00:05:50.55
"If somebody in your
congregation asks you 'How do
you really give your heart to
00:05:50.55\00:05:53.82
the Lord,' what do you say?" And
that guy said, "Well, I'd tell
him what that really means
00:05:53.82\00:05:59.05
is that you surrender
all to Jesus." >> Mm-hmm.
00:05:59.05\00:06:02.12
>> And of course, once again,
we have a vague answer. >> Sure.
00:06:02.12\00:06:04.89
>> How do you surrender all
to Jesus? Do you just sing that
00:06:04.89\00:06:07.76
song in the hymnal, "I surrender
all," and now you're good to go?
>> Sure. And he grew up as a
00:06:07.76\00:06:11.47
Christian, and so he had heard
that phrase before. So he was
asking for something a
00:06:11.47\00:06:15.47
lot deeper than that. >> So he
asked another pastor, and this
happened all afternoon.
00:06:15.47\00:06:19.11
And I think he went through like
a half a dozen pastors, and the
answers they gave included
00:06:19.11\00:06:24.21
fall on the rock and be broken,
behold the land, use the eye of
00:06:24.21\00:06:28.62
faith. All kinds of stuff. Every
answer was vague and intangible.
00:06:28.62\00:06:32.39
And he went home from that camp
meeting really discouraged
because he thought, "If my own
00:06:32.39\00:06:37.16
peers can't tell me how to have
a close walk with Jesus," you
know, "where am I gonna find
00:06:37.16\00:06:41.70
it?" And he sat down to write
a letter of resignation from the
00:06:41.70\00:06:45.03
ministry to send to his boss. >>
Because he was feeling more
discouraged than when he first
00:06:45.03\00:06:50.14
started asking the question. >>
Worse, yeah. I think he said it
00:06:50.14\00:06:53.58
this way. "The latter state of
that man was worse than the
first," which was a quote from
00:06:53.58\00:06:57.08
Jesus. >> Yeah, yeah. >> And so
then -- but before he mailed
that letter that he had
00:06:57.08\00:07:01.65
written, I guess I would say it
was the Holy Spirit impressed
him, maybe he should try reading
00:07:01.65\00:07:07.22
a little book. It was a
pamphlet, not very long, pretty
00:07:07.22\00:07:11.46
short read, but it had a subject
title line that sort of spoke to
his question. The title was
00:07:11.46\00:07:18.37
"Steps to Christ." >> Mm-hmm. >>
And he thought, "Maybe if I read
that book, I might get some
00:07:18.37\00:07:21.67
insight." So he read the book
and he found out that -- in that
00:07:21.67\00:07:25.64
book anyway -- that there's this
overarching agenda or goal or
objective that God has for each
00:07:25.64\00:07:32.58
of us, which is to have a
meaningful, personal, intimate,
ongoing, one-on-one relationship
00:07:32.58\00:07:39.35
with us -- one-on-one. I've come
to call it like facetime, you
00:07:39.35\00:07:44.06
know? God wants to have facetime
with you. And my dad, as he went
00:07:44.06\00:07:48.80
through that book, he discovered
there were three particular
tools in the book that talked
00:07:48.80\00:07:55.54
about things you could do to
nurture that kind of
relationship. >> Mm-hmm.
00:07:55.54\00:08:00.28
>> And as he finished the book,
he boiled them down and wrote
them down, and they were three
00:08:00.28\00:08:05.81
things that might sound pretty
mundane or, you know -- but as
he unpacked them, they began to
00:08:05.81\00:08:10.99
have a lot more meaning. The
first one was Bible study, but
it wasn't Bible study to
00:08:10.99\00:08:15.52
prepare for a sermon. >> Mm.
>> It wasn't Bible study to be
00:08:15.52\00:08:18.86
able to give someone a
theological, you know -- >>
Understanding of doctrine.
00:08:18.86\00:08:22.70
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >>
Yeah, it was Bible study for
00:08:22.70\00:08:25.07
the purpose of getting to know
Jesus. So now all of a sudden,
00:08:25.07\00:08:29.84
the focus is not "what knowledge
can I gather from scripture?" It
was "who can I become better
00:08:29.84\00:08:34.74
acquainted with in this book?"
>> Wow, that's very vulnerable.
That's very personal.
00:08:34.74\00:08:38.95
Like, you're looking at
connecting with God, and, you
know, is that gonna happen?
00:08:38.95\00:08:45.29
I guess there would be fears in
some people's minds. "Is God
really gonna show up?
00:08:45.29\00:08:49.92
This is an ancient book. This is
old stuff. Am I really going to
00:08:49.92\00:08:54.46
have that connection?" And so
he found -- this is something --
00:08:54.46\00:08:57.50
>> Well, this was one of the
tools. And so as he was looking
00:08:57.50\00:09:00.84
-- I mentioned there were three.
>> Yes. >> So, the first one was
00:09:00.84\00:09:04.14
Bible study for the purpose of
getting to know Jesus. >> Yeah.
00:09:04.14\00:09:07.04
>> And understand that as I'm
telling you this stuff, at this
point, he's not dialed into
00:09:07.04\00:09:11.51
that. He's just coming up with
some tools to try and see if he
00:09:11.51\00:09:14.62
can get that. >> Got
ya, got ya. >> Mm-hmm.
00:09:14.62\00:09:16.65
>> And the second one was prayer
for the purpose of communication
rather than for the purpose of
00:09:16.65\00:09:21.69
getting things, you're
getting answers. >> Mm-hmm.
00:09:21.69\00:09:24.63
>> Okay. >> 'Cause if
there's a relationship involved,
00:09:24.63\00:09:27.60
communication's a fundamental
ingredient, right? So prayer
00:09:27.60\00:09:31.63
becomes a tool for communicating
as friend to friend. >> Mm-hmm.
00:09:31.63\00:09:34.17
So you're not just praying
if there's a crisis. >> Right.
00:09:34.17\00:09:37.57
>> Like, you know, "Help
me," or, you know. It's more --
00:09:37.57\00:09:41.24
>> "Help me find my keys." You
know, I think that's the most
common prayer in heaven.
00:09:41.24\00:09:45.18
[ Laughter ] >> "Help me
find the right parking space."
00:09:45.18\00:09:48.18
>> Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, exactly.
>> And then the third tool was
00:09:48.18\00:09:53.59
sharing with others. In other
words, spilling over. So, yeah,
00:09:53.59\00:09:57.93
as you become more excited about
the relationship that develops
with tools number one and two...
00:09:57.93\00:10:02.16
>> Yes. >> ...then the third
one becomes sort of a natural
00:10:02.16\00:10:06.43
byproduct of those, which is you
spill over to other people about
how cool this relationship
00:10:06.43\00:10:10.87
actually is and how cool Jesus
is. And then as you spill over,
what happens is that kind of
00:10:10.87\00:10:15.24
creates more room for more of
the water of life to keep your
00:10:15.24\00:10:18.61
cup brim-full. >> Nice. >> And
if you don't spill over, then
you grow stagnant, you
00:10:18.61\00:10:21.98
know, kind of thing. So those
were the three things. And so he
00:10:21.98\00:10:28.76
said a prayer. He said, "God,
I want to have something deeper
00:10:28.76\00:10:31.63
than what I have. I want to
experience that here as well as
here. I don't want to just have
00:10:31.63\00:10:35.00
head knowledge. I want my heart
dialed in." >> Right, right.
00:10:35.00\00:10:37.80
So, those three tools. He
saw them. He didn't have that
00:10:37.80\00:10:43.74
experience going on. >> No, no.
>> He just knew that he needed
00:10:43.74\00:10:46.37
to do that, those three things.
So, the first one -- Bible
00:10:46.37\00:10:49.78
study. Second one -- prayer. And
then the third one is a product
of those first two --
00:10:49.78\00:10:53.58
you spend time with God. >>
Sharing. >> And then you share
00:10:53.58\00:10:56.82
that with others. >> Yeah, kind
of almost like a little rhyme
00:10:56.82\00:10:59.79
almost. You know, it's Bible
study, prayer, share, you know?
I mean, it's those three things.
00:10:59.79\00:11:03.96
>> Mm-hmm. >> And so that,
for him, was instantaneous, life
00:11:03.96\00:11:09.50
changing. >> Oh, I wish I could
say it was, but he would say,
00:11:09.50\00:11:14.30
"No, not at all." He said -- He
told me that "I begin to pray,
and I told the Lord I want this
00:11:14.30\00:11:19.14
deeper experience. Sounds
like it might be available.
00:11:19.14\00:11:21.68
I've never experienced it, but
if it is, I'm gonna work these
00:11:21.68\00:11:26.01
three things." Eventually, as
the years progressed, my dad
referred to these as the three
00:11:26.01\00:11:29.58
legs of a three-legged stool.
>> Okay. >> He says, "I'm gonna
00:11:29.58\00:11:33.09
work this three-legged stool,
and I'm asking you to make it
00:11:33.09\00:11:36.66
real for me." >> Yes. >> Mm-hmm.
>> And then he begins to read,
00:11:36.66\00:11:39.73
particularly in the Gospels.
Like, start there, look at the
00:11:39.73\00:11:43.93
life of Jesus. >> Mm-hmm. >>
And he said as he was reading --
00:11:43.93\00:11:46.77
remember, he's the pastor, and
as he's reading, he said it was
boring, boring, boring.
00:11:46.77\00:11:49.47
>> Wow. >> Hmm. >>
But he was desperate.
00:11:49.47\00:11:52.04
>> Yes. >> Now, this is
a guy with bleeding ulcers.
00:11:52.04\00:11:54.68
>> Yeah. >> And so he kept on,
he hung on, and he kept doing
00:11:54.68\00:11:58.51
this, and as time went by, it
went to being just boring,
boring instead of boring,
00:11:58.51\00:12:02.85
boring, boring. So that's an
improvement of one, you know?
00:12:02.85\00:12:05.75
And as he continued over a
process, a protracted process of
time, it went from being boring
00:12:05.75\00:12:09.99
to being not so bad and then not
-- you know, pretty good, and
then really wonderful, can't
00:12:09.99\00:12:14.86
wait. But it was a slow -- kind
of like a rainbow has gradual
00:12:14.86\00:12:18.73
colors going across, you get
from one side of the spectrum to
00:12:18.73\00:12:23.10
the other. It was like that for
him. >> Right, right, and so a
00:12:23.10\00:12:26.31
progression. As he got to know
Christ, it became so much more
real to him? >> Yeah, over time
00:12:26.31\00:12:32.18
he reached the point where he
couldn't wait now to have fresh
time with Jesus, facetime with
00:12:32.18\00:12:36.69
Jesus. Couldn't wait, looked
forward to it eagerly. >> What I
find so helpful about
00:12:36.69\00:12:41.19
that is that you're getting
a big picture. You're saying,
00:12:41.19\00:12:44.96
"This is what I can do. Will it
work? Yes, it works if you work
00:12:44.96\00:12:48.83
it," and yet it doesn't become a
formula, just stagnant. It's not
a formula that's like
00:12:48.83\00:12:55.60
plug-and-play. It's just this is
the big picture, this is how it
00:12:55.60\00:13:00.21
works. Now start practicing
it. And as he practiced it, it
00:13:00.21\00:13:05.08
worked. It changed his life. >>
Yeah, changed his life, and it
turns out that Jesus is
00:13:05.08\00:13:10.39
actually giving us that same
kind of counsel in John chapter
00:13:10.39\00:13:17.16
3 when he has that conversation
with Nicodemus. And maybe we can
talk about that more later, but,
00:13:17.16\00:13:22.20
you know, that concept is there.
>> Yeah, we're gonna have a
quick break now, and we'll come
00:13:22.20\00:13:25.67
right back after this break. So,
this is the book you want. This
00:13:25.67\00:13:31.87
is the book, "Steps to Christ."
This is the book that Pastor Lee
Venden mentioned on
00:13:31.87\00:13:35.68
how to become and
remain a Christian.
00:13:35.68\00:13:38.98
And what a vital topic.
>> Yes, it's so wonderful to
00:13:39.01\00:13:42.65
hear concrete, practical
examples of how to grow closer
00:13:42.65\00:13:46.92
to Christ, and that's why today
we want to offer you this very
00:13:46.92\00:13:52.36
special book --
"Steps to Christ."
00:13:52.36\00:13:55.40
>> This book is so incredible.
Every single page is full of
00:13:55.40\00:13:59.60
powerful, step-by-step
instructions to strengthen your
00:13:59.60\00:14:03.54
walk with Jesus. It's
changed countless lives,
00:14:03.54\00:14:06.51
including my own. >> Mm-hmm.
00:14:06.51\00:14:08.21
>> So, please, to receive your
very own free copy of this book,
00:14:08.21\00:14:12.65
contact us through the
information on the screen.
00:14:12.65\00:14:15.78
And may God bless
you as you seek Him.
00:14:15.78\00:14:22.42
Imagine being a religious
leader, and you just don't feel
like you're connecting with God.
00:14:22.46\00:14:28.36
Well, that was Lee Venden's
father, Morris Venden. He was
just telling us about how
00:14:28.36\00:14:33.94
he was struggling. He was
a third-, fourth-generation
00:14:33.94\00:14:38.17
Christian. Came from a family
where there were many people who
were religious leaders within
00:14:38.17\00:14:44.15
the Christian church, and he
found himself not really being
able to connect with God, so
00:14:44.15\00:14:51.05
much so that he had bleeding
ulcers. And then he picked up a
book called "Steps to Christ,"
00:14:51.05\00:14:56.26
and in it, he found three things
that he said, "These are three
00:14:56.26\00:15:01.23
things I can do." And he
tried out those three things.
00:15:01.26\00:15:03.53
Those three things were
Bible study for the purpose of
00:15:03.53\00:15:06.53
connecting with God and
getting to know Jesus better.
00:15:06.53\00:15:10.14
Prayer for the purpose of a
two-way communication, not just
00:15:10.14\00:15:14.24
a one-way asking -- "I've lost
something and help me to find
00:15:14.24\00:15:18.21
it, God." And also
sharing -- the product
00:15:18.21\00:15:21.12
of the first two and
sharing that faith with others.
00:15:21.12\00:15:24.55
And as I heard you, Lee, telling
the story of your father, I was
00:15:24.55\00:15:28.79
thinking of John 5:29 -- sorry,
39 and 40 -- where Jesus is
00:15:28.79\00:15:34.56
talking to the religious
leaders, and he says to them,
00:15:34.56\00:15:37.63
"You search the scriptures," and
of course they should, they're
00:15:37.63\00:15:40.20
religious leaders. But
he says, "You search the
00:15:40.20\00:15:42.37
scriptures to find eternal life,
and yet you refuse to" -- "these
00:15:42.37\00:15:45.47
very scriptures speak about me,"
he says, "and yet you refuse to
00:15:45.47\00:15:48.68
come to me to
have eternal life."
00:15:48.68\00:15:51.18
And so they were missing it. >>
Yeah, yeah. >> Well, that kind
00:15:51.21\00:15:55.98
of reminds me -- in John 17:3 it
says, "And this is eternal life,
that they might know Thee, the
00:15:55.98\00:16:03.22
only true God, and Jesus Christ,
whom Thou hast sent." So the
keyword there is "know,"
00:16:03.22\00:16:08.20
right? >> That's
what they were missing.
00:16:08.20\00:16:10.80
>> Mm-hmm. >> They had Bible
knowledge, if you will, but they
00:16:10.80\00:16:14.80
didn't have a -- they didn't
know Jesus. They didn't know
God. And they didn't recognize
00:16:14.80\00:16:18.81
His Son in the flesh
when He showed up. >> Mm. Mm.
00:16:18.81\00:16:21.51
That's tragic. >> Yeah. Yeah.
So the bottom line really is --
00:16:21.51\00:16:25.41
and I think maybe far too often
many of us have missed it, but
that is Christianity is not
00:16:25.41\00:16:30.85
really about what you do. It's
about who you know, and then who
you know changes what
00:16:30.85\00:16:35.92
you do. >> Mm. >> And
for far too many of us,
00:16:35.92\00:16:38.86
we spend a lifetime as
Christians focusing on our
behavior, trying to live right,
00:16:38.86\00:16:43.57
do right, be right, please God,
and make sure that we don't
offend and kind of keep our
00:16:43.57\00:16:48.60
ducks in a row, and all the
while, He's saying, "Actually, I
just -- Could we be friends?"
00:16:48.60\00:16:53.81
>> Yeah. >> "I'd like to
have a relationship with you."
00:16:53.81\00:16:57.25
And the good news is that, if we
would focus on that, then the
behavior that we're so concerned
00:16:57.25\00:17:02.32
about actually ends up being the
fruit of the relationship. It's
the byproduct in that.
00:17:02.32\00:17:08.06
I think you can say it this way.
Christianity is not about what
00:17:08.06\00:17:11.39
you do. It's about who you know,
and then who you know changes
00:17:11.39\00:17:14.56
what you do. >> Mm. That's
beautiful. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
00:17:14.56\00:17:17.67
I mean, very tragic. Here's
these religious leaders who
00:17:17.67\00:17:22.90
should know God. I mean, you go
to someone who has been studying
the Scriptures, and you're
00:17:22.90\00:17:27.54
thinking, "Well, he knows God
because he's reading about it.
00:17:27.54\00:17:31.38
He's seeing it." But they missed
it. >> Well, and that's probably
-- I'm thinking about the two of
00:17:31.38\00:17:35.98
you. I don't know anything about
your romance or how you hooked
00:17:35.98\00:17:40.02
up or anything like that, but
let me just try to imagine a
scenario where somebody says to
00:17:40.02\00:17:45.06
you, Mike, "There's this girl.
We really think she'd be the
right one for you, and here's a
00:17:45.06\00:17:49.96
profile of her. Here's the info.
Here's the data sheet on Rene."
00:17:49.96\00:17:53.90
And you read this information
about Rene, and on paper, you
know, she looks like she's a
00:17:53.90\00:17:59.11
pretty interesting person, but
at this point, all you have is
00:17:59.11\00:18:03.65
information. >> Yes. >> And
then, for whatever -- you know,
you end up in a proximity
00:18:03.65\00:18:07.72
where she is, and you decide,
"I'm gonna give it a shot. I'm
gonna ask her if she can
00:18:07.72\00:18:12.42
spend some time together." And
you end up going on a date, and
all of a sudden, now you're
00:18:12.42\00:18:17.36
actually exchanging and
interacting and having a
relationship with a real person.
00:18:17.36\00:18:21.83
And it's not hard for you to see
why your heart would've started
to flutter with her.
00:18:21.83\00:18:27.80
>> Yeah. >> But now, all of
a sudden, the heart's involved,
00:18:27.80\00:18:30.94
not just the head. >> Yeah,
yeah. >> You went from head
00:18:30.94\00:18:33.17
knowledge to a heart experience.
And I think when Jesus is
talking to the woman at the
00:18:33.17\00:18:37.05
well and He said to her the kind
of worship that God is looking
for is those who would worship
00:18:37.05\00:18:41.68
Him in spirit and in truth, He
was describing that. He was
saying, "Not just having
00:18:41.68\00:18:45.85
it here, but having it here, as
well." Kind of have to have both
00:18:45.85\00:18:49.42
oars in the water, or the boat's
just gonna go in a circle, and
those religious leaders
00:18:49.42\00:18:54.13
basically had just one oar. They
had the head knowledge. They had
all the Bible theology,
00:18:54.13\00:18:57.97
you know? They had the doctrine,
but they didn't know Jesus.
00:18:57.97\00:19:01.40
>> No, they didn't. >> So
they're going in circles.
They're not getting anywhere,
00:19:01.40\00:19:06.41
and yet they just keep doing it.
They keep going over and over
00:19:06.41\00:19:10.78
again. I think of another
text where it talks about-- it's
00:19:10.78\00:19:15.42
pretty tragic. It's in Matthew
chapter 7, I think it is.
00:19:15.45\00:19:17.99
And the religious leaders
are -- well, I guess it's not
00:19:17.99\00:19:21.29
religious leaders, but
it's people who at Christ's
00:19:21.29\00:19:24.36
Second Coming, they say,
"We did this in Your name."
00:19:24.36\00:19:27.83
>> Religious people. >> Yeah,
religious people. >> Yeah, "We
00:19:27.86\00:19:31.33
did many wonderful things. We
cast out demons even in Your
name -- all this stuff."
00:19:31.33\00:19:34.84
And in Luke, also, those
same stories are told. >> Right.
00:19:34.84\00:19:38.87
And then He says,
"Away from me. I never..."
00:19:38.87\00:19:41.74
>> "Knew." >> "I never knew
you." >> There's the keyword
00:19:41.74\00:19:45.01
again. >> Yeah, yeah. So what
is that knowledge when we get to
00:19:45.01\00:19:48.95
know God? What is He like? >> Do
you know, before I respond to
that, can I just -- you made
00:19:48.95\00:19:54.06
my mind kind of click off on
something else. The word "know"
00:19:54.06\00:19:58.93
that he uses in John 17:3 -- I
don't want to get all
theological here, and I have a
00:19:58.93\00:20:05.47
computer Bible that helps me be
smarter than I really am. And I
went to John 17:3 in my
00:20:05.47\00:20:10.54
computer, and I highlighted
K-N-O-W, where He says, "Eternal
life is based on knowing my
00:20:10.54\00:20:14.71
Father and myself." And I said
to my computer, "So what was the
original word that was used in
00:20:14.71\00:20:19.15
translating K-N-O-W?" And
what was Jesus -- you know, that
00:20:19.15\00:20:22.05
word. And my computer spit it
out to me. It said, "Ginosko,"
00:20:22.05\00:20:26.86
and that was the Greek word. And
so, you know, I'm not a rocket
scientist when it comes
00:20:26.86\00:20:30.99
to Biblical languages, but I
used my computer, and I
highlighted "ginosko," and I
00:20:30.99\00:20:35.40
said, "So where else in the
Bible does this concept show
00:20:35.40\00:20:38.93
up?" >> Yes. >> And I clicked
"go," and it said -- this blew
00:20:38.93\00:20:42.80
my mind. It said Joseph -- that
would be the guy who became the
stepfather of Jesus, the
00:20:42.80\00:20:47.84
carpenter in Nazareth -- said,
"Joseph did not know Mary until
after her child was born."
00:20:47.84\00:20:53.42
>> Mm. >> I clicked again.
It said, "Adam knew Eve, and she
00:20:53.42\00:20:58.49
bore him a son named Seth." I
clicked again. It said, "Abraham
00:20:58.49\00:21:02.62
knew Sarah, and they had a son
named Isaac," or "Laughter." And
all of a sudden, I'm going,
00:21:02.62\00:21:06.83
"Oh, wow. When Jesus used
that word "know," he was talking
00:21:06.83\00:21:10.20
about something, elsewhere in
Scripture, used to describe a
very special, very intimate,
00:21:10.20\00:21:14.27
very meaningful,
below-the-surface, not casual,
ongoing relationship between two
00:21:14.27\00:21:18.21
people, husband and wife, which
produces offspring. So I
thought, "What is Jesus
00:21:18.21\00:21:22.11
saying?" When He uses that word,
He's saying, "I'm talking about
00:21:22.11\00:21:25.45
a very deep, personal,
meaningful relationship. I'm not
talking about showing up
00:21:25.45\00:21:29.32
in church once a week for an
hour, singing a praise song,
saying amen," and then going off
00:21:29.32\00:21:33.66
to the rest of my week.
"I'm talking about an intimate
00:21:33.66\00:21:37.13
relationship." >> Yes, yes. So
God wants that intimate
relationship with us.
00:21:37.13\00:21:40.76
>> Yeah. >> Yeah, a deep,
abiding relationship, right?
00:21:40.76\00:21:44.00
>> Exactly, abiding. That's a
good word because the intimacy
that's being described,
00:21:44.00\00:21:48.40
the sexual intimacy being
described in Scripture there, is
meant to be an abiding
00:21:48.40\00:21:52.67
relationship. >> Mm-hmm. >>
This is not a one-night stand
00:21:52.67\00:21:55.88
we're talking about. This is
about a deep permanent
relationship that is nurtured
00:21:55.88\00:22:00.22
and grows over time. >> Yes, so
that intimate relationship that
00:22:00.22\00:22:05.45
God wants with us, that is a
connection that's life-giving
and producing -- as you said, it
00:22:05.45\00:22:12.23
produces offspring. >> Yeah.
>> And that offspring is leading
00:22:12.23\00:22:16.93
others to God. >> Yeah. >> And
within your own life, you have
spiritual fruit that's
00:22:16.93\00:22:21.84
obvious. So give us that
definition of Christianity
00:22:21.84\00:22:26.07
again. >> Christianity is not
about what you do. It's about
00:22:26.07\00:22:29.58
who you know, and then who you
know changes what you do. >> Mm!
00:22:29.58\00:22:32.41
>> The way you say that changes
everything because the word
"know," as you defined it now,
00:22:32.41\00:22:37.55
is who you know and who you have
that connection with. >> Now,
I'm sorry, Mike, you
00:22:37.55\00:22:42.36
asked me a question,
and I digressed. >> Yes.
00:22:42.36\00:22:45.26
>> But to get back to your
question, you said, "So what's
there worth knowing about God?"
00:22:45.26\00:22:50.00
And how would you enter into
that kind of a relationship
where you find your heart
00:22:50.00\00:22:55.90
throbbing? And I think the
answer, once again, is those
00:22:55.90\00:22:59.51
three-legged stool things. Well,
it's a Bible study to get to
00:22:59.51\00:23:02.78
know Jesus. So where am I gonna
go? I'm gonna open up the
Gospel, maybe the Gospel of
00:23:02.78\00:23:07.05
John, and I'm gonna say a
prayer, and I'm gonna say, "Lord
Jesus, I understand there's a
00:23:07.05\00:23:11.39
deeper experience available for
me, and I want that, so I'm
gonna read about Your life with
00:23:11.39\00:23:16.06
a prayer that You'll take me to
an experience that's more than
00:23:16.06\00:23:20.13
head knowledge." And as I look
at the Scriptures and see how
Jesus treated people, I see how
00:23:20.13\00:23:24.63
he treated that woman at the
well, I see how he treated Mary
of Magdala, I see how he treated
00:23:24.63\00:23:29.30
Matthew the tax collector, I
see how he treated -- >> Even
00:23:29.30\00:23:32.01
lepers. >> Lepers. >> He
touched them, right? Mm-hmm.
00:23:32.01\00:23:34.91
>> He didn't care where you were
in life, you know... >> Mm-hmm.
00:23:34.91\00:23:38.11
>> ...whether you were a mover
and a shaker like Nicodemus or
whether you were Zacchaeus,
00:23:38.11\00:23:42.48
an offscouring and undesirable,
or whether you were a leper, as
00:23:42.48\00:23:46.02
you said. >> Mm-hmm. >> You
know, you look at Him working
00:23:46.02\00:23:48.99
with people, having a
compassionate heart and a love
for people. And it starts to
00:23:48.99\00:23:54.30
melt you down. >> It does. >>
And as it starts to melt you
down, you begin to find this
00:23:54.30\00:23:57.80
heart attraction for this guy.
>> Yes. >> And it's supernatural
00:23:57.80\00:24:01.77
also. >> Of course. >> You know,
because the Bible is different
than any other book
00:24:01.77\00:24:04.61
on the planet. >>
Mm-hmm. >> You know?
00:24:04.61\00:24:06.17
There's something special about
the power of the Holy Spirit
that accompanies the reading
00:24:06.17\00:24:10.28
of God's Word. And this doesn't
happen with any other book.
00:24:10.28\00:24:12.71
>> Absolutely. >> And as you're
reading God's Word and the
00:24:12.71\00:24:15.65
Spirit does that sort of thing
for you, then your heart begins
to sing in response.
00:24:15.65\00:24:21.39
And back to the metaphor between
the two of you, you're on a
00:24:21.39\00:24:25.06
date, and you say, "I'm gonna
marry this girl." You know? I'm
on a date with Jesus now,
00:24:25.06\00:24:28.90
and I say, "I want to live with
Him and for Him for the rest of
00:24:28.90\00:24:32.20
my life"... >> Yes. >>
...because He's attractive. >>
00:24:32.20\00:24:34.60
Yes. >> You find out that
getting to know Him and His
00:24:34.60\00:24:37.47
Word... >> Yes. >> ...he's
attractive. >> That is what
spoke to me, was -- I received a
00:24:37.47\00:24:42.04
Bible. Someone gave me a Bible
when I was a teenager and said,
"I want you to read this."
00:24:42.04\00:24:47.22
And I'm like, "I don't want your
Bible. You know, you keep your
00:24:47.22\00:24:49.75
Bible." It was all marked up,
you know, had all kinds of nice
little writing in it.
00:24:49.75\00:24:54.12
And it was his personal
Bible, but he said, "Here's a
00:24:54.12\00:24:56.89
challenge. I want you to read
this Bible. Read at least a
chapter a day." And as I was
00:24:56.89\00:25:01.80
reading that chapter a day, it
was speaking to me, but I was
reading Genesis and Exodus.
00:25:01.80\00:25:07.74
But when I got to Leviticus,
it started to -- "Yeah, this is
00:25:07.74\00:25:11.51
tough." And then someone said,
"Maybe you should look at the
Gospels." >> Go to the Gospels.
00:25:11.51\00:25:15.31
>> Yeah. >> Yeah.
>> And that was the
00:25:15.31\00:25:17.18
transformation.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah.
00:25:17.18\00:25:18.85
>> You know, Jesus said to those
two on the road to Emmaus... >>
00:25:18.85\00:25:22.02
Yeah. >> ..."I'm gonna show you
all the things concerning myself
in the Scriptures," and of
00:25:22.02\00:25:25.65
course He was referring
to the Old Testament. >> Yes.
00:25:25.65\00:25:27.76
>> But I've discovered that it's
far easier to find Him, first of
all, now in our day
00:25:27.76\00:25:31.66
and age, by going to the
Gospels. And then once I see him
00:25:31.66\00:25:34.36
more clearly there... >> Yes.
>> ...oh, then He starts popping
00:25:34.36\00:25:36.53
up everywhere in the Scripture.
>> Everywhere, throughout the
00:25:36.53\00:25:38.77
Scriptures. >> Then you can go
back to Leviticus after you've
read John, and all of a sudden,
00:25:38.77\00:25:42.94
the sacrifices and all that
stuff starts to have a whole
new... >> Understanding.
00:25:42.94\00:25:47.34
>> ...understanding, meaning
to it. >> And meaning, yeah.
00:25:47.34\00:25:49.34
>> And very purposeful. And
even in Genesis, you see Jesus
00:25:49.34\00:25:52.81
showing up. >> Oh, yeah. >>
You see right through the entire
00:25:52.81\00:25:55.75
Bible. When I get to the Book of
Revelation, I think the place
that really spoke to me
00:25:55.75\00:26:00.56
was Revelation 3:20.
>> There you go. >> Right?
00:26:00.56\00:26:03.66
"Behold, I stand at the door
and knock." So, He's taking the
00:26:03.66\00:26:07.76
initiative before we are. Before
I pick up my Bible, before I
00:26:07.76\00:26:12.90
pray, He's -- He's knocking.
He's saying, "I want that
relationship with you more than
00:26:12.90\00:26:17.11
you want that relationship with
me, and I want to give you a
00:26:17.11\00:26:21.68
taste of that." And so He knocks
at the door. He doesn't break
the door down. >> Right, he
00:26:21.68\00:26:24.28
doesn't break it down. >> He's
just waiting patiently for us to
to answer, to open the
00:26:24.28\00:26:28.02
door, right? >> And
He's persistent. >> Yeah.
00:26:28.02\00:26:30.92
>> Doesn't give up. >> Yeah.
My wife is a schoolteacher,
00:26:30.92\00:26:35.09
and she had a little girl that
paraphrased Revelation 3:20 that
00:26:35.09\00:26:41.60
I thought was so beautiful. It
was like, "Knock-knock." "Who's
00:26:41.60\00:26:45.33
there?" "Jesus." "Jesus who?"
"Jesus Christ." "Oh, really?
00:26:45.33\00:26:48.87
And what do you want?" "Nothing
really big or anything. I'd just
00:26:48.87\00:26:54.68
like to come in and hang out
with you. I'd like to eat with
you, have a meal, sit and talk,
00:26:54.68\00:26:58.38
you know, just be friends." Then
goes, "Knock-knock. Knock-knock.
00:26:58.38\00:27:03.55
I'm still here knocking." And
I thought that was so cool for a
00:27:03.55\00:27:07.46
little girl to come up with that
paraphrase. But I'm so glad that
00:27:07.46\00:27:11.19
He keeps knocking. >> He
does. >> You know? >> He does.
00:27:11.19\00:27:12.96
>> He keeps on -- He doesn't
give up. >> He doesn't give up.
00:27:12.96\00:27:15.30
>> Even when we've been
distracted and looking at the
wrong direction, focusing on
00:27:15.30\00:27:18.27
behavior instead of Savior, He
doesn't give up. >> Yeah, yeah.
00:27:18.27\00:27:21.07
So, Lee, as we close, I'm just
gonna ask you to have a word of
00:27:21.07\00:27:26.91
prayer for us, and then we can
close off. And next time, we can
continue our discussion.
00:27:26.91\00:27:30.65
We're gonna talk about
conversion and how that works.
Can you -- Can you pray for us?
00:27:30.65\00:27:35.78
>> All right. Lord Jesus, thank
You that You want to be our
00:27:35.78\00:27:38.79
friend and that You are that
friend that sticks closer than a
00:27:38.79\00:27:42.26
brother. Forgive us for maybe
far too often missing that. >>
00:27:42.26\00:27:47.56
Mm-hmm. >> It's pretty easy,
actually, to be like those
leaders who just search the
00:27:47.56\00:27:53.10
Scriptures and actually miss
You. And we don't want to miss
You. And so thank You for
00:27:53.10\00:27:58.34
continuing to knock on our
heart's door. And may we come to
understand more and more
00:27:58.34\00:28:04.28
effectively how to respond to
that knock in ways that will
draw us into a closer walk with
00:28:04.28\00:28:08.75
You. That's my prayer for
everybody, myself included. In
00:28:08.75\00:28:13.29
Jesus' name, amen. >> Amen. >>
Thank you, Lee. So, friends,
just want to remind
00:28:13.29\00:28:18.93
you of the words of Jesus -- "It
is written: 'Man shall not live
by bread alone, but by
00:28:18.93\00:28:25.00
every word that proceeds
out of the mouth of God.'"
00:28:25.00\00:28:29.64
い い
00:28:29.67\00:28:49.42
い
00:28:49.42\00:28:59.17