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Series Code: IIWC
Program Code: IIWC201706A
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01:31 >> It has stood the test of time, 01:34 God's book, the Bible, still relevant 01:39 in today's complex world. "It Is Written," 01:45 sharing messages of hope around the world. 01:50 ♪♪ ♪♪ 02:02 >> For ages, people have said, "God is love." 02:06 The Bible says, "God is love," but what does that really mean? What is this love, 02:14 and how is it possible that God loves? To help me take a journey 02:21 in understanding that question and answering that question, I have today with me special 02:26 guest Dr. John Peckham, professor of theology and Christian philosophy 02:33 at the Theological Seminary at Andrews University. Dr. Peckham has authored 02:39 three books and is working on an additional three books. Dr. Peckham, I want to welcome 02:45 you to "It Is Written Canada." Thank you so much for being here. 02:48 >> Thank you, Chris. It's great to be with you. >> Now, John, obviously, 02:51 you take the understanding of who God is very seriously. Talk to me a little bit about 02:59 how that happened in your life and why it's so important to you. 03:04 >> Yeah. I grew up as a pastor's kid, 03:06 so as long as I can remember, I was concerned about who God 03:10 is, what God is like, and my father 03:13 was a youth pastor. So he did a lot of youth ministry, 03:16 and that brought us into situations where we into cities, 03:19 ran soup kitchens, and I remember being struck at a very young age 03:23 at the evil in the world, the suffering in the world, and yet I knew from a personal 03:28 relationship with God that God was good and God was love, 03:31 and how do you reconcile those two things? And it's been a long journey 03:36 for me in wrestling with how to understand God and the God of the Bible, 03:40 and so I focused my studies on God's love to try to get at that larger 03:46 question of who God is and how does He relate to us. >> Now, I want to step back 03:51 just a little bit because you and I have had an opportunity to talk a little bit. 03:55 You had this question as a young child, really the problem of evil, 03:59 the problem of the character of God, but when you began your 04:03 university studies, you actually did not go in the direction of theology 04:07 or pastoral ministry. What did you study in your undergraduate studies? 04:11 >> That's right. My undergraduate studies, I did a double major in business 04:14 administration and accounting, and my plan was to go on and do a JD/MBA, 04:20 get into high finance. It was about my sophomore year of undergraduate studies 04:26 where I felt a strong call from God that whatever gifts He had 04:31 given me were to be used for something other than enriching myself, 04:36 and that's not to say anything against business. It's a wonderful, 04:38 noble profession, but I felt strongly that God was calling me 04:42 to do something different, and that's when I pursued the question 04:47 of going into ministry, doing theological studies. I consulted the seminary I was 04:52 going to attend at Andrews, and they told me, "Go ahead and finish your undergraduate 04:56 degrees in business. The church can use people with that background," 05:01 and certainly they can and they do, and I went ahead 05:04 and finished that, and then I went straight to the seminary 05:07 to prepare for ministry. >> And you ended up going into pastoral ministry 05:13 but began your doctoral studies, where you really explored this question 05:20 of the character of God. In fact, your dissertation was on the concept 05:26 of divine love, and, you know, I've enjoyed so much us being able to talk, 05:32 and now we're going to be sharing that with the wider audience. 05:35 Now, the event that led you kind of to make that decision, kind of that career shift, 05:41 that life shift for you was September 11, 2001. >> Yes. 05:45 >> Where were you living at the time? How did that affect you, 05:47 and how did that drive you toward the direction of really wanting to understand 05:52 that character of God? >> Yeah. I was doing my undergraduate 05:54 in Massachusetts at the time, and I was beginning an internship. 05:59 I'd just done all of the training, and I was just beginning to work 06:01 with a supervisor in financial planning when that hit, and there was a number of other 06:06 events that led up to that that told me that maybe I should be doing 06:09 something else with my life based on what God wanted for me. But when the plane struck 06:14 the two towers, that was obviously a massive event in the United States 06:21 and across the world, and for me personally. I remember on that day 06:27 my would-be supervisor was wanting me to cold-call potential clients 06:32 to try to get them interested in buying financial products like life insurance, 06:37 and I was thinking, "There's something wrong here." And as I thought about it more, 06:45 what occurred that day was symbolic of where 06:49 I was putting my treasure, if you will. >> Sure. 06:53 >> And I felt like God really wanted me to do something else, and I pursued that path. 06:58 >> Well, we're thankful you pursued that path. We're thankful that God led you 07:02 on that path and that you're here today to talk about it. 07:04 So let's about this character of God. Really what's at stake 07:12 when we begin this exploration? Because often we take for granted, 07:17 and I began the show by saying, "God is love." >> Mm-hmm. 07:20 >> We take for granted that that is true, and I believe that's true, 07:27 but really, what's at stake when we study this conception of God 07:30 and the character of God? >> Yeah. Really everything is at stake 07:35 because at the center of theology, of course, is God Himself. 07:39 Theology means the study of God even though we deal with many other areas because God, 07:45 if we're correct about who God is as the Creator of the world, Sustainer of everything, 07:49 there's nothing that doesn't relate to God, but God is at the center, 07:52 and how you conceive of God affects everything else that you believe 07:57 and everything that you do if what you do is actually in line with what you actually believe. 08:03 So a famous theologian once said, "A small mistake at the beginning 08:07 is a large one at the end," and when it comes to thinking about theology, 08:11 and really, life, if you make a mistake about understanding God, 08:16 that's going to affect everything else that you think theologically, 08:20 and as a Christian, it's going to affect your life, the way you relate 08:23 to other people. So I can't think of anything else that's more important. 08:26 In fact, I want to take you to John 17:3... >> Okay. 08:30 >> ...John 17:3 on this, and I share this with my students all the time as 08:36 I'm introducing them to one of my introductory Christian theology courses. 08:41 John 17:3 says, "And this is eternal life, that they may know 08:46 you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." 08:52 Now, those words were spoken by Jesus Himself, and He's talking about knowing 08:57 God as central to eternal life. Now, I don't think He means in that text 09:02 merely theological beliefs, but in order to know someone, you have to know 09:08 some things about them. I mean, it would be really strange 09:11 if I would say to my wife, or before she was my wife, you know, as we were dating, 09:15 if I said, you know, "I'd really like to have a relationship with you, 09:18 but can we just never talk?" >> Right. >> "I mean, please don't ever 09:21 tell me anything about you because, you know, that part is not important to me. 09:25 I just want to have a relationship with you." That doesn't make sense. 09:27 >> No. >> So to know God includes much more 09:29 than knowing theology and theological beliefs, but not less than that. 09:34 >> And so this... What is really at stake here is we talk about having 09:40 a relationship with Jesus. Christianity is about a relationship with Jesus, 09:44 a relationship with God, yet maybe the fundamental problem that we're facing 09:49 is sometimes who we think God is... >> Yes. 09:54 >> ...is not really who He is, and so what's really at stake here 09:59 is the very core of everything that this book teaches about who God is. 10:06 Any other text that can help us in kind of beginning this journey of understanding 10:11 who God is? >> Yeah. I want to take you 10:13 to 1 John 4:8, and as we're going there, you're so right 10:19 about people's conception of God and having a misconception of God, affecting 10:22 their relationship with Him. A lot of people don't have a relationship with God 10:27 because the God they have in mind isn't the true and living God, right? 10:31 So some people have had negative experiences with their own parents. 10:35 The Bible uses a lot of imagery of God as a Father and God as a Parent, 10:39 and they project onto God maybe the kind of experiences they've had with humans, 10:42 not realizing that God is perfect. He's much better than anything 10:46 we've experienced here. Or they have heard of theological conceptions 10:49 of God that make God culpable for evil or other kinds of things, 10:56 and they are not interested in having a relationship with that God. 11:01 >> Yes. >> But the God of the Bible is quite different. 11:04 1 John 4:8 tells us that God is love, and it says actually more than that. 11:10 The entire verse says, "He who does not love does not know God." 11:15 That goes back to what we were just talking about, right? >> Yes, yes. 11:18 >> That if you claim to know God, and you don't love 11:22 and don't love other people... Elsewhere in 1 John, He says, "You're a liar," right? 11:27 Because if you know God, you will love others because God is love. 11:34 The question is, as you mentioned earlier, what does that mean? 11:38 Because if I surveyed even 10 people and asked them what is love, 11:43 I would probably get 10 different answers, right? >> Yes, and this might take our 11:47 conversation a little bit different direction, but, you know, 11:49 it's an interesting thing. I've talked about this. I've used this illustration 11:52 before. In the English language, there's a weakness in that 11:56 we have this word love... >> Yes. >> ...that is used in a variety 12:00 of contexts -- "I love my wife," "I love my mom," 12:04 "I love my dog"... >> Right. >> ..."I love this food." 12:06 >> Right. >> And the question becomes is, what is love? 12:09 >> Yeah. >> Now, there are other languages 12:11 that use a variety of words to describe what love is... >> Mm-hmm. 12:17 >> ...Spanish, French, other of these languages, so maybe let's just dwell 12:22 a little bit here on this... >> Sure. >> ..."What is love?" 12:26 and the biblical concept of love, and I don't want to put you 12:31 on the spot, but how many different words or, relatively speaking, 12:34 how many words are used in the Bible to describe love? >> Yeah. 12:39 It depends on how you would go about answering that question... 12:41 >> Okay. >> ...because just like English, 12:44 the words that are used for love have that broad variety of meanings. 12:50 So the love for a parent, the love for a spouse, the love for a friend, 12:54 those can all be signified by the same word in Greek, for instance, the language the 12:58 New Testament was written in. On the other hand, the Bible does have a lot more words, 13:04 and so the range of the meaning of the words is quite broad, but then there's a lot of words 13:09 that add nuances and shades of meaning. So the main words for love 13:14 in the Old Testament and the New Testament are a handful of terms. 13:19 In the New Testament, the most famous terminology is agape. 13:23 Then you have philos, which is the noun form of that word, 13:28 or phileo is the verb form of that in the New Testament. 13:31 >> Sure. >> Those are the two main words that are translated love, 13:35 but it would be a mistake for us to think that those are the only two words 13:38 that are dealing with love because love is such a broad and central concept 13:42 that language in both the New Testament and the Old Testament 13:45 as dealing with God's delight, with God's pleasure, even in some cases that's very 13:50 closely related to God's choice, that terminology is all very closely related to love, 13:56 and sometimes actually referring to love itself. In the Old Testament, we have 14:01 a similar thing going on. We have words like ahab, a word hesed, 14:05 which one commentator said that you need at least a paragraph to describe what 14:11 the word hesed means. It's usually translated "Loving kindness"... 14:14 >> Sure. >> ...in the King James and New King James version. 14:16 Other versions translate it "Loyal love" or "Steadfast love," 14:20 and those are all good words to describe it, but it's that and more, 14:23 mercy, compassion. It's even related to justice, and there's this 14:29 beautiful, fully orbed concept of God's love that the view 14:34 that I had of God's love when I started studying it is extremely impoverished in 14:38 comparison to what I've found, and no doubt, there's much more than what I found of God's love. 14:43 But even what I've been able to see from Scripture, it's much more 14:47 than I ever imagined. >> Well, it's just that few moments 14:52 of talking about gives us opportunity to pause when we say, "God is love"... 14:58 >> Yes. >> ...and in our minds say, "Oh, I know what that means," 15:02 just the variety of words and concepts that you were just delving into. 15:06 You know, one of my favorite Christian authors talks about that throughout eternity, 15:12 we will be studying the science of salvation. >> That's right. 15:14 >> And I think a part of that science is God's love toward us. 15:18 >> That's right. >> So it's probably important right at the outset 15:22 in understanding that love that when we talk about love, in order 15:28 for love to truly be love, it gives us the ability to say, "Yes," or to say, "No." 15:32 >> Mm-hmm. >> It's a response, a give-and-take situation. 15:36 I think we're going to expand on that. >> Yes. 15:39 >> But, you know, there are a number of people who are watching, 15:41 Christian or not, who have had this conception of God 15:46 as One who predestines or predetermines everything. >> Yes. 15:53 >> Let's talk about that a little bit because that is 15:57 a little difficult for me, as you talk about the grace and the mercy and the delight 16:01 and the pleasure and the compassion, to package up with a God 16:07 who simply predestines everything. Let's talk about that debate a 16:09 little bit that goes on and probably talk about that because there are probably many 16:13 viewers who have heard this... >> Yes. >> ...and actually have been 16:16 turned off to a relationship with God on what they might consider 16:20 to be an arbitrary predestination. Let's talk about 16:23 that a little bit. >> Yeah. There's a very close 16:26 relationship between that issue of God predestining 16:31 or determining everything and the concept of divine love. In fact, one of the most 16:35 traditional views of God's love is based on the view that God doesn't really have 16:40 a reciprocal relationship with humans but only a one-way 16:44 or unilateral relationship with humans, which means that if God 16:48 is acting on the world at all, it's in this predestinarian or deterministic way, 16:53 and so they take the concept of love, and they say that love is, 17:00 from God's perspective, is a choice. It's entirely relational, 17:04 and He chooses to love some unto salvation and others not unto salvation. 17:10 He gives grace to everyone on that particular theological strain, 17:14 but He only loves some in a way that they actually will be saved, 17:18 and if God loves you that way, it's technically called, in some theologies, 17:23 unconditional election, but they mean by that the same thing as unconditional love. 17:30 They could substitute the word love for election. Now, they don't mean by that 17:34 what you and I would mean if we said unconditional love, but for them, 17:38 love from God's perspective just is His choice. So unconditional election is 17:42 God's unconditional choice of someone to be saved, and love is the same thing. 17:48 In fact, if you read, some commentators say, "For God to love is to choose, 17:51 to choose is to love." You could put an equals sign between them. 17:55 That view has a long history in Christian theology, not just on love but on the way 18:00 God could relate to the world because there are particular conceptions of God 18:04 based primarily on some very famous Greek philosophies about what it takes 18:12 to be a perfect kind of being that said that a perfect kind of being couldn't really love 18:18 in any sense of the term that humans are accustomed to because that wouldn't 18:23 be perfect -- at least they thought that was the case. >> Sure. 18:25 >> And therefore, they had this view of God as very transcendent, 18:28 very removed from the world, very much not able to be affected by anything 18:34 that occurs in the world, and therefore, God's love must be this unilateral 18:39 relationship. >> You know, let's hit a pause button there because I want you 18:44 to unpack that a little bit. >> Yes. >> So what you're saying is that 18:47 there are some teachers who have taught, some people who have believed, 18:50 that God has had this attitude toward humanity that He's close enough 18:58 to choose to love some, that they will sense that love and choose salvation, 19:06 and He will love others, but that love will be distant enough 19:10 that they won't choose salvation and effectively be lost? And so it's almost kind of 19:18 this arm's-length relationship of a God who almost comes across 19:26 as arbitrary, loving some, not loving others, and it leaves us 19:33 really entrenched in this question. Okay. 19:37 If the Bible says God is love, that doesn't sound very loving. That sounds like God has a bit 19:45 of favoritism that is favoritism that comes across as quite arbitrary. 19:51 Am I summarizing what you just said there in a fair way? Let's talk about that. 19:57 Let's probe that a little deeper. >> Yeah. Yeah. 19:59 Even stronger than that, it's not just that they won't choose. 20:04 They can't choose to accept God's grace on that model. >> Wow. 20:09 >> Now, to be fair to those who believe in that view, it does sound a bit arbitrary. 20:14 On their view, it's not arbitrary, they would say, because God is sovereign. 20:18 No one deserves salvation, so we should just be happy that He chooses to save some 20:23 and not worry about the ones that He chooses not to save, but it's very troubling from my 20:29 perspective because I believe that the Bible teaches, and we may have some opportunity 20:33 to get into this a little bit later, that God does 20:37 want to save everyone, and He does everything He can to save everyone. 20:42 But there's a long trajectory of this in Christian theology, and every trajectory 20:46 of Christian theology is heavily debated, even the way things originated, 20:50 but the typical understanding, which I think is correct, is that this view was introduced 20:55 into Christian theology by a theologian by the name of Augustine. 20:58 Augustine was a late 4th-century, early 5th-century church 21:02 father... >> Yes. >> ...the most influential 21:05 theologian outside of the Bible in the history of Christianity. 21:10 Many scholars of Christian history make the claim 21:14 that before Augustine, the majority of Christian theologians, 21:18 early fathers, believed in the kind of free will where you could choose 21:22 to accept God's love. You could choose to accept His grace and be saved, 21:26 or you could reject it, and not in a way that you could earn it. 21:29 It's always unmeritorious. It's always a gift of grace. >> Yes. 21:32 >> But you have the choice to accept that and be saved or not. 21:36 Augustine, again here, there's some dispute because there's 21:41 many people who follow Augustine in many different trajectories. >> Sure. 21:43 >> And as is usually the case, people who claim someone as their forbear often interpret 21:48 that person in a way that lines up maybe with their view. >> Sure. 21:51 >> But I think it's safe to say that the majority, or at least a great many, 21:55 of scholars, believe that Augustine's view himself changed. 22:00 One of the first books that he wrote was on free choice of the will, 22:03 and in that book, he at least appears to be saying something 22:07 very similar to the kind of free will I just described. >> Yes. 22:10 >> But then he had an encounter with some Christians who were saying basically 22:16 that you have the kind of will that you could basically save yourself. 22:22 You can pull yourself up by your bootstraps, right? This is a theology 22:24 called Pelagianism... >> Okay. >> ...technically by a name 22:28 of a Christian by Pelagius. >> Sure. >> They got into a controversy, 22:31 and out of that controversy, as the story is usually told, Augustine, 22:37 to cut off Pelagianism, move towards determinism or predestinarian theology. 22:42 Some people say he didn't move at all. He always believed that. 22:44 It just wasn't as clear, but the way I read him, it looks like he moved. 22:47 >> Sure. >> And then after Augustine, the vast majority of theologians 22:54 had something of that strain in their theology all the way through the Reformation 22:59 and beyond. >> Well, and this is very helpful. 23:02 You know, as you know, the title of our program is "It Is Written," 23:05 and our commitment is not a commitment to a creed or a statement of faith, 23:11 but our commitment is to the Word of God. >> Yes. 23:14 >> So what I'm hearing you say is that originally out of the Word, 23:17 and maybe you could pull... I'm going to ask you to read a text in just a moment 23:20 that talks about how God loves everyone and doing all He can to save everyone. 23:26 >> Yes. >> The biblical view is this is what God's love looks like, 23:31 but at some point in the distant past, around the 4th and 5th century, 23:36 around 300, 400 A.D., introduced into the Christian church 23:42 is a bias placed upon the Bible that now makes God's love not an equally loving everyone 23:52 and trying to save everyone, but now, God loves some more than others, 23:59 determining in advance who will and who will not be saved. So let's...We have just 24:05 a few minutes left here. So let's go to a text that talks about God's love of everyone. 24:11 So what's a text that you would like to go to in talking about that. 24:15 >> There are many texts. The first one that we should go to, 24:17 and you'll tell me how many we can go to, John 3:16. >> Okay. 24:20 >> This is the most famous text in the Bible, John 3:16. We know it by heart. 24:25 Probably many who are watching... >> Yes. 24:28 >> ...today know this text by heart. John 3:16, 24:34 often we know it so well, and this happens with a lot of text in the Bible, 24:38 we know it so well, we just read over it and don't realize the full significance 24:42 of what is being said there, but John 3:16, "For God so loved the world 24:47 that He gave his only begotten Son, that whoever"... What's that word? 24:54 >> Whoever, that's everybody. Whoever... >> Yes. 24:57 >> ..."whoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life." 25:02 So He loves the world. That is a statement of totality, and whoever believes in Him 25:08 will be saved, and if we were to keep reading in John 3, you would see that the reason 25:12 in the text that anyone is lost is because they have not accepted salvation 25:18 through Christ, not because of a decision of God, and there are many other texts 25:21 that teach this view that God wants to save everyone. >> Well, and it's interesting 25:25 because verse 17, which is, I often say, everyone quotes John 3:16. 25:29 >> That's right. That's right. >> But verse 17 follows, 25:31 "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world"... 25:34 >> That's right. >> ..."but that the world through him might be saved," 25:37 and that word saved there is a real interesting Greek word, sozo, 25:40 that talks about healing both not spiritually, just spiritually, 25:44 but physically, mentally, emotionally, and so this is a powerful way 25:49 in which we can end this program here that we talk about 25:54 God sent his Son because He loved everyone, whosoever, 26:00 not to condemn but to save, to bring healing. So in this last minute 26:05 that we have left, Dr. Peckham, share with us one thought that we can leave 26:10 our audience with today. >> Yeah. It is this thought that God 26:14 really wants to save us. He wants to have a love relationship with us. 26:19 2 Peter 3:9 says He's not willing that anyone would perish, 26:22 but He wants everyone to come to repentance, and God is doing everything 26:26 He can to save everyone He can because He loves you. He loves me. 26:31 He loves everyone watching today, and so if one even has the 26:37 smallest inkling that they want a relationship with this God, He is reaching out to you. 26:41 He's calling to you to have a relationship of love with Him. >> Dr. Peckham, thank you 26:46 so much for sharing. We are all out of time, and so we're going to leave folks 26:51 with a little bit of a cliff hanger, but next week, we're going to 26:55 continue this discussion and probe who this God of love really is. 27:01 Let's close with a word of prayer. Heavenly Father, 27:06 we are so thankful that You are love. Even in saying that, 27:14 we don't even understand really the minutest bit of what or how far 27:21 that love really goes, but, Lord, as we study Your Word, 27:26 we see that this love is overflowing toward each of us. 27:31 Today we want to respond to that love, reach out our hand 27:35 of faith and say, "We want a relationship with You." 27:40 Please guide us in this journey. We pray in Jesus' name. Amen. 27:47 >> Amen. >> God is love. For many of us, 27:54 it's hard to grasp what that really means. For some of us, it's hard 27:58 to believe that it can be true, but what we are finding as we have started this journey 28:05 is that God loves everyone and desires to be in a relationship with everyone. 28:13 Today, I want to offer you the book "God's Love for Man." This study will help you 28:19 as you read to dive deeper into that love that God has toward you as an individual. 28:27 It'll lead you to understand His love, to receive His love 28:33 and to reciprocate that love. Here's the information you need to receive today's offer. 28:40 >> To request today's offer, just log on to 28:43 www.ItIsWrittenCanada.ca. If you prefer, you may call 28:49 toll free at 1-888-CALL-IIW. >> Dear friend, I hope that you have been blessed 28:55 by today's program. Dr. John Peckham, thank you so much for being a part 29:00 and giving us insight into this love of God. >> Thank you, Chris. 29:06 >> Friend, I want to encourage you 29:07 to go to our website, ItIsWrittenCanada.ca. 29:11 There, you will be able to find more resources 29:14 to help you in this journey of understanding 29:18 who this God of love is and how much He desires 29:22 to have a relationship with you. I also want to encourage you 29:26 to like our Facebook page. There, you can keep up with 29:29 what's happening in the ministry and receive inspirational quotes 29:34 to help you to love God more. Thank you so much for watching. I encourage you to watch again 29:41 next week. Until then, remember, it is written: 29:45 "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds 29:50 from the mouth of God." ♪♪ |
Revised 2018-03-20