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Series Code: IIWC
Program Code: IIWC201705A
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01:30 >> It has stood the test of time -- 01:34 God's book, the Bible, still relevant in today's complex 01:41 world. "It Is Written" -- Sharing 01:46 messages of hope around the world. 01:50 ♪♪ ♪♪ 02:02 >> Dear friends, we have enjoyed, over the last several 02:05 weeks, exciting discussions on the issue of religious freedom, 02:08 the freedom to choose. Once again, I have gathered with 02:12 me a wonderful panel. Kevin Boonstra from Vancouver. You practice law right there in 02:18 Vancouver. Mark Johnson, president of the Seventh-Day Adventist Church in 02:21 Canada, headquartered here in Ontario. And Gerry Chipeur, practicing 02:25 law as a lawyer in Calgary, Alberta. Gentlemen, I'm so excited to 02:30 have you here, once again. Now, you know, we've talked about a number of different 02:34 things. And to the viewer, if you 02:36 happen to miss any of the programs, you can go to our 02:39 website there, www.ItIsWrittenCanada.ca, and 02:44 view archives of the program. Or you can go to our YouTube 02:47 there at www.YouTube.com/IIWCanada. 02:53 And during our discussions, we've been talking about 02:56 several liberty issues, and most of them revolving around issues 03:01 here in Canada. And I think, you know, Mark, 03:03 I want to start with you. I think one of the most 03:05 important things we can talk about is the reality of the 03:09 freedom that we enjoy here in Canada. 03:11 >> We're really blessed. Um, and when you travel around 03:16 the globe and you see what life is like in many parts of the 03:19 world, uh, there are large portions of the Earth where you 03:25 have to be very careful what you believe, how you express 03:29 yourself. But Canada has this incredible quality that brings people 03:35 together from all around the world and puts them in a community where it does not 03:40 assess that one is better than the other. Everyone is free, within reason, 03:46 to practice what they believe, and that is a great thing about this nation. 03:51 >> And, you know, Kevin, I want to follow up with that a little bit, 03:54 you know, Mark being a pastor, the president of a church here in Canada. 03:58 What's maybe a legal perspective, a lawyer's perspective of the freedoms we 04:02 enjoy here in Canada? >> Yes, over the last few weeks, 04:05 we've talked about some of the struggles that -- that we've had 04:08 in Canada, some of the hard cases, and even sometimes some 04:11 cases that maybe weren't decided appropriately or properly 04:14 to fully defend freedom of religion in Canada. But -- But that's really all 04:19 around the periphery when you look around the world. Because I agree with Mark -- 04:22 We have such great, uh, freedom of religion in Canada compared to so many other places. 04:28 And it's important that we -- we look at what's going on around the world, both because we 04:33 should be doing what we can to help people around the world that are -- uh, don't enjoy the 04:37 freedoms that we do, but also it's a cautionary tale about what happens when you don't 04:42 properly protect freedom of religion and some of the other fundamental freedoms. 04:45 >> Gerry, what are your thoughts on that? 04:48 >> Well, the -- the leadership role that Canada has played, 04:52 as we mentioned, both within the United Nations and within 04:57 other international bodies, to create these international 05:00 human rights documents, has, uh, I think had a significant 05:05 benefit for the world. For example, there's the International Convention 05:09 on the Rights of Children, a document that, to a great extent, takes the values 05:18 that we find within our Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and says to the world, 05:24 "Children and families are important and must be respected by the state when the state 05:32 interacts with individuals," and it puts an onus on the state to create legal mechanisms so 05:39 that children and families can act to protect themselves against both state actors and 05:46 others who might try to take away the individual rights of autonomy that children and their 05:52 parents should have as families. >> You're talking about that removal of rights. 05:57 And, Mark, I want to turn to you, because I want to talk about then now, the context -- 06:01 a word that we haven't used, I think, in our programs thus far, and that is the word 06:07 "persecution." >> Mmm. >> You travel around the world 06:11 representing the Seventh-Day Adventist Church in Canada around the world. 06:16 Why don't we talk a little bit about what is persecution, what do we see happening in 06:20 other areas of the world from the regard, and in regards to, persecution? 06:26 >> Well, persecution is an interesting thing, because it is not something new, 06:30 obviously. As you read the biblical account, you discover that 06:33 over time, uh, there certainly has been a -- a sense of various individuals seeking to impose 06:43 their will on other folks, and doing it forcefully. If you go back in time to the 06:51 prophetic books of the Old Testament, clearly, there's story after story -- 06:56 very interesting stories, which would not have been very interesting to live through, 07:01 but are interesting and instructive to us, because it demonstrates that within 07:07 the human family, there has been this sort of forceful approach to, um, belief and -- and 07:16 practice in various places. So, um, in the world that we live in today, there are people 07:24 who restrict various points of view. There are religious groups that 07:29 are marginalized in some parts of the world. Certain governments, uh, in -- 07:34 in varying portions of the world have made it very, very clear, by law and by coercion of 07:41 various types, that some people who have certain beliefs are not welcome in their country or in 07:49 their area. Uh, in other cases, there are parts of the world today where 07:55 individuals lose their life if they happen to be people who have a given faith basis. 08:03 And that's very worrisome, because if I am willing to go to that length, then, frankly, 08:10 the discussion that we had about life a couple of weeks ago is -- is kind of a mute point, 08:16 isn't it? Because if I'm willing to kill somebody else to -- to do and 08:22 force my thinking, then I really don't regard the sanctity of life very much, so now I'm in 08:27 a conflict. >> And you use that word "killing," and I'm going to 08:33 bring up a term, "the martyr." And I will talk specifically about Christian martyrs. 08:39 We have seen some of that in the news lately, but what is a Christian martyr? 08:43 What does that word "martyr" mean? >> Well, I think that -- that 08:47 the concept of martyrdom, the act of martyrdom, is -- is being willing to say that there is 08:53 a principle that is important to me, so important to me, that the loss of life itself is 09:03 of less consequence than for me to back away from this thing that I believe in. 09:08 That's really a very powerful thing when you come right down to it. 09:11 >> Absolutely. And it's -- you know, it's interesting, that word "martyr," 09:14 from the Greek. It comes from a Greek word, martus. 09:18 That word is translated oftentimes in the New Testament as "testimony" or "witness." 09:24 And what you have is someone, when you talk about the word martyrdom, someone -- as you've 09:30 stated -- someone who's willing to stand for a principle, so much so that they're willing 09:34 to die for that principle. And certainly, we have people who are dying for principles 09:38 outside of Christianity, but within Christianity, Christianity is, in fact, one of 09:45 the most persecuted religions around the world, and we read from history all 09:50 kinds of persecution coming upon Christians and other religious groups. 09:56 However, Kevin, I'm going to turn to you. We don't hear a lot about that, 09:59 though, in the media. Let's talk a little bit about maybe why we don't hear about 10:03 that, and then let's bring maybe to light, through these programs, some of the things 10:07 that are happening around the world. >> Yeah, so, persecution is 10:10 nothing new for Christians. I think most of -- most of Christ's disciples died as 10:16 martyrs, died for the -- you know, to preach the Gospel that Christ himself had taught 10:22 them. It showed, you know, fundamental belief in -- in things that 10:26 Jesus had -- had taught them and their experience living with him on a daily basis, so much so 10:32 that they were prepared to die. So, it's nothing new to Christianity. 10:36 Uh, but we are seeing it, again, around the world. And, um, you know, we see 10:41 extremist groups, like ISIS, that is, you know, killing for a whole bunch of reasons -- 10:49 because they don't like somebody's sexual orientation, they don't like somebody's 10:52 religion, they don't like somebody's, whatever it is, and so death is the consequence. 10:58 Um, so -- so, this thing that happened in the Middle East around the time of Jesus is 11:03 still happening, or is happening again today. Uh, you know, Christian church, 11:07 historically, isn't -- uh, isn't immune from criticism on this, obviously, through the 11:11 Middle Ages, either, uh, but we are seeing it and it -- and it is troubling. 11:15 I think we should be careful, though, not to just protect against the persecution against 11:19 Christians, because there are other groups that ISIS is killing, as well, 11:23 uh, and we have to be equally prepared to defend -- to defend their rights and their right 11:27 to life. >> And I think if an individual would go back and watch all of 11:31 our programs, we've been really talking about that, and while we all, uh, practice 11:36 a Christian world view in our -- in our round table here, it's very important to 11:43 understand, we must recognize the rights and the freedom of religious practice, or the 11:49 freedom to not practice religiously amongst other -- amongst other people. 11:55 And, Gerry, I want to make sure I'm not making an overstatement, but we've talked about things 12:00 happening here in Canada, in North America. Would it be too much to say that 12:05 some of the things we've seen around the world, is actually -- if we take the 12:09 denial of religious rights, is what -- some of what we're seeing around the world actually 12:14 the logical end to denying the rights of individuals the freedom to choose? 12:18 >> Absolutely. And I -- I would remind your viewers that, just in the 12:25 21st century, we have had more Christian martyrs than all the other 20 centuries before. 12:33 It -- This is a very dangerous time to declare oneself a Christian. 12:40 Maybe not in North America, maybe not in Europe, but in most other parts of the world. 12:47 Uh, if you take a stand for your faith, uh, your life is not very valuable. 12:52 And it's critically important to understand that it is the same attitude that causes 13:01 discrimination in Canada and that causes discrimination which is much more, uh, lethal 13:09 in other parts of the world. And if one has that in mind, that discrimination, at the end 13:16 of the day, is about treating someone as less of a human than you are, 13:22 then that begins to make it possible for you to treat them and mistreat them and, 13:29 ultimately, to potentially, uh, engage in the kind of persecution that we're talking 13:35 about internationally. >> And it's -- it's very interesting, when we talk from 13:40 a Christian perspective and, unfortunately -- and, Kevin, you were mentioning this -- 13:44 Christianity is not immune to this. I just did a tour in Europe that 13:49 rehearsed and -- and went and viewed sites where there -- some of this persecution occurred and 13:56 millions of people died for their standing up of their individual faith in opposition 14:04 to the majority religion. And it is very interesting, Mark, you talked about the issue 14:10 of prophesy, and -- and this is not necessarily a show in which we're going to go into 14:14 biblical and prophetic topics, but it is very interesting, the last book of the Bible, 14:18 the Book of Revelations, talks about a time -- a time where we as Christians believe 14:24 is coming soon, and we're seeing emerge rather quickly, where there will be a great revival 14:30 of the denial of religious freedom. And even our neighbors to the 14:36 south, in the United States, when they were founded by the pilgrim fathers, is very 14:41 fascinating to watch and rehearse that history, where the founding fathers came 14:45 because of religious persecution and almost instantaneously began setting up states in which you 14:51 had to practice a certain religion. Then comes along a man by the 14:55 name of Roger Williams, who sets up Rhode Island, and where Rhode Island, the paramount 15:00 issue is the freedom to choose. And so, we -- you know, one of my favorite authors says, 15:06 "One of the greatest fears we have as humanity is the fact that we forget history and 15:11 how history has operated in its past." And so, we need to look to 15:14 history. But let's talk about some of the things happening around the 15:18 world. Kevin, any thoughts on particular areas where there are 15:21 denials of religious freedoms happening right now? >> Yeah, there are still a lot 15:25 of countries around the world that have anti-blasphemy laws, where it's actually a crime to, 15:30 in certain Muslim countries, say things against the Prophet, um, or to say things that are 15:36 contrary to the official state religion. Places like Pakistan, Malaysia, 15:41 Indonesia that still have these anti-blasphemy laws, and in some of these countries, the penalty 15:47 can be death. So, it's -- You know, I talked about ISIS earlier, and 15:50 everybody can hold up ISIS as an example, but there are numerous other countries where some of 15:54 these things are, uh, still a risk for people of a variety of faiths. 15:59 Um, one of the other things that has happened in the not -- in the fairly recent past 16:05 was a court decision in Russia that found that the Jehovah Witnesses are an 16:09 extremist group and started confiscating Jehovah Witness property and effectively making 16:13 that group illegal within the Confederation of Russia. So -- So, there are some -- 16:18 There are lots of places in this world that don't enjoy nearly the sort of freedom that we 16:22 have. >> And, you know, Mark, it's really when -- when the group 16:26 that is being persecuted, and, Kevin, you mentioned the Jehovah Witnesses, and then you 16:31 talked about countries where there are these blasphemy laws where you cannot blaspheme 16:36 the Prophet of Islam. Sometimes what we lose sight of is, when the particular group 16:45 being persecuted is maybe not our group, it's easy to kind of just continue on going -- uh, 16:53 going to McDonald's, and -- and enjoying the freedoms that we have and doing what we want 16:59 to do. But the reality is, is we need to pay attention to that, and -- 17:02 and let's maybe talk a little bit from a Christian perspective. 17:04 Why do we need to pay attention to this persecution, and what do we need to do about it? 17:09 >> Well, one of the fundamental principles of -- of Christian faith is the recognition that I 17:14 am my brother's keeper. In other words, my neighbor is a person who God created just as 17:22 He created me. And -- And so, if I am not willing to express my concern 17:32 and support in the treatment of the person down the block, then the question is, why should 17:38 I expect to be treated any differently, should the circumstances warrant it, with 17:45 regard to my own situation? Uh, the challenge is -- is that we -- we tend to, as 17:52 individuals, easily separate, um, people into groups that are like us and those who are 17:58 unlike us. And -- And if we make that separation, if we do that sort, 18:03 it is more easy for us to sign on with those who are basically very similar to us than to 18:13 recognize that God is not pleased with individuals who follow Him simply because they 18:20 are programmed to do that, coerced to do that, herded into a situation to do 18:26 that. And where totalitarianism rises or where persecution breaks out, 18:32 we -- we may begin with partway measures, but we are on a trajectory, which God talks 18:41 about and Christ elaborated in his discussions, uh, and -- and recognize that you may 18:48 begin with hating your brother, or marginalizing your brother, but there is a good chance 18:54 that you are ending up on the same trajectory that leads people to murder one another, 18:58 and that is totally alien to the will of God. >> Gerry, I see you -- see you 19:03 over there thinking, Gerry. What are your thoughts? What are your thoughts, as we're 19:06 kind of talking about this subject here? >> Well, it certainly is 19:10 important that we do something, and so what are we doing? And I think that we are doing 19:15 three things that are important in the area of international religious freedom. 19:19 First, as a church, we're intervening in the courts. We're not just in the courts in 19:24 Canada. We are going anywhere in the world where these issues are 19:29 going before judges and legislators, and we are presenting briefs, we are 19:35 standing up for those who find themselves caught up in the red tape of a bureaucracy intent 19:42 on denying them their religious freedom. The second thing we're doing is 19:47 that we're actually going into these communities to take care of their first needs. 19:52 The Adventist Development Relief Agency, ADRA, is there to deal with food and housing 19:57 and clothing, and being there when there's a crisis, because it seems like, when there is 20:04 a time of crisis, that's when governments tend to limit liberties even more. 20:11 And so ADRA is able to be there as a first responder to these kinds of events. 20:17 And then, finally, we're at the United Nations, where all the nations of the world come 20:22 together to talk about best practices, really. That's what it is. 20:25 How do we best govern? How do we best meet the ideals that are set forth in these 20:30 international human rights documents? And we're there as a consulting 20:35 NGO trying to be a little bit of a light to those nations, saying, "When you treat your 20:43 citizens badly, it only hurts your nation and your community. Let's adopt pluralism, let's 20:50 celebrate diversity, let's not engage in practices that will only reduce, not 20:59 increase, the value of the human life." >> And I don't -- I don't want 21:04 to put any words in your mouth, Gerry, but what I'm hearing you say -- and what I'm hearing 21:07 you say -- and just correct me if I'm wrong -- the value of an individual to choose -- 21:12 And we've talked about this week after week, but I really want to emphasis this. 21:16 In Canada, we have lawyers that are defending the rights of individuals in other countries 21:22 by filing briefs in other countries' court systems, defending the right for people 21:28 to choose, whether that choice is to practice Christianity, or whether that choice is to be 21:34 secular, to not believe, because the value of an individual to not believe is as important 21:42 as it is for an individual to have the choice to believe. Am I hearing you correctly? 21:47 >> Absolutely. I think you've said the same thing twice. 21:50 [ Laughter ] >> And the reason for this -- Although as a Christian and 21:55 from a Christian world view, I may believe that Jesus is the way, and I believe that that -- 22:00 and I may believe that the Bible teaches that this is the path, but I also must understand that 22:07 God himself did not force Adam or Eve, He did not force individuals, but He invited -- 22:14 He made the invitation to choose, and to choose Him freely. 22:19 And as you were saying, Mark, we aren't going to find people in Heaven, are we, that have 22:24 been coerced to be there? >> No. Not going to happen. >> Kevin, as we are, uh, coming 22:29 to our last five minutes together here, what are some other thoughts on this issue 22:33 of religious freedom around the world? >> Right, so, one of the things 22:36 that Gerry was talking about is -- is some of the things that the church has done around the 22:41 world to relieve suffering. And what that brings to my mind is the responsibility we have. 22:46 So, we have freedom of religion in this country, and we're advocating for freedom of 22:49 religion elsewhere. But it's not just the freedom to believe, it's the freedom to act 22:54 in accordance with our beliefs. Uh, and that places on us as Christians a particular 22:59 responsibility to act with the love of Christ and to actually use that freedom to take care of 23:05 our -- our fellow mankind, to actually help other people, because that's what Jesus came 23:11 to the Earth to do. And so, if we're not doing that with our freedom, then we're 23:15 misspending it. >> Mark, what are you thoughts on -- on this? 23:21 >> Well, I -- I think that this whole business of caring for the individual and for the 23:27 people, as -- as both Kevin and Gerry have mentioned, becomes a -- a pivotal arrangement 23:36 in the life of a community of faith. Uh, from the Christian 23:41 perspective, I read where we are admonished to take care of the person who is weak, 23:51 the person who is wounded, the person who is weary. Uh, there's a story in the 23:56 New Testament that is commonly referred to as the "The Story of the Good Samaritan." 24:03 And certainly, there was a distance between the individuals who were hearing the 24:08 story and the practices and the beliefs of the Samaritan person. Uh, but -- but Christ, who is 24:15 helping the disciples to define how to live that life in this -- in this quest of, what does 24:24 spirituality look like when it is practiced, put the believer, put the person 24:32 who had a faith basis with God right in the middle of this crisis for this other 24:37 individual. So, the person who is a person of faith does not shirk from the 24:41 crisis but is there to take care of the individual and, ultimately, if necessary, yield 24:50 up their life, if that's what it takes to preserve the life of someone else. 24:53 There is this concept of -- of rendering care to other individuals, which is kind of 25:00 alien to an awful lot of people in today's world. >> And, Gerry, in the final 25:05 minute, want to give you the final thought and summary of what we've talked about over 25:09 the last several weeks. >> Well, as a lawyer, "The Story of the Good Samaritan" is really 25:15 something that, uh, hits home, because it was a lawyer that was trying to get out of doing 25:20 something on a technicality, and Jesus told him, "This is the Golden Rule in action." 25:27 And when he heard the story, his response was that, the person who was that Samaritan's 25:34 neighbor was the person who rendered aid and showed themselves to be a neighbor. 25:40 And I think that's the real message here, is if we treat each other as we would like to 25:45 be treated, we're not going to have any religious freedom problems. 25:49 >> Gentlemen, what a way to conclude. The freedom to choose, 25:53 the freedom of religion, no matter what a person's belief or practice may be, our call 26:00 as Christians is to respect that, but our call, generally, in humanity, is to respect the 26:06 values of others, that although they may not be mine, we each should be granted the 26:13 freedom to choose and the freedom to practice, the freedom of religion. 26:18 Let's pray. Heavenly Father, we are grateful that though we are all 26:25 different, you have granted to each of us the key value of freedom, 26:32 the freedom to choose. I pray that every individual listening, every individual 26:37 watching will take that value of the freedom to choose and, as the Good Samaritan, would go 26:47 about granting and treating others as they would like to be treated. 26:53 We pray this in Jesus' name, amen. My dear friends, the freedom to 27:01 choose is the paramount issue in the government of God. Over the last several weeks, 27:07 we've been talking about the freedom of religion and the freedom to choose. 27:12 Today, I'd like to offer you a very special book. It is a book called 27:15 "The Great Controversy." It is a book that covers theology and history, and it 27:20 traces the history of God giving that freedom to choose. Here's the information you need 27:29 to receive today's offer. >> To request today's offer, 27:33 just log on to www.ItIsWrittenCanada.ca. 27:38 That's www.ItIsWrittenCanada.ca, 27:42 and select the "TV Program" tab. For Canadian viewers, the offer 27:46 will be sent free and postage paid. 27:49 For viewers outside of Canada, shipping charges will apply. 27:52 If you prefer, you may call toll-free at 1-888-CALL-IIW. 27:58 That's 1-888-CALL-IIW. Call any time. 28:03 Lines are open 24 hours daily. That's 1-888-CALL-IIW. 28:08 Or if you wish, you may write to us at Is Is Written, Box 2010, 28:13 Oshawa, Ontario, L1H7V4. And thank you for your prayer 28:19 requests and your generous financial support. 28:22 That's It Is Written, Box 2010, Oshawa, Ontario, L1H7V4. 28:29 >> Gentlemen, I want to thank you so much for joining me over the last several weeks to 28:33 discuss this topic. Kevin Boonstra from Vancouver, British Columbia. 28:37 Mark Johnson from Oshawa, Ontario. Gerry Chipeur from 28:41 Calgary, Alberta. I've appreciated the time you've taken to be here and expose this 28:46 issue of the freedom of choice and the freedom of religion. >> Delighted. 28:51 >> And thank you for dealing with this important topic. >> At IT Is Written Canada, 28:55 we're committed to sharing the foundation of God's government and the freedom to choose. 29:01 My dear friends, God wants every individual to realize the human right to choose, 29:10 to choose whatever they may and whatever direction they want to go. 29:15 Of course, God would like you to choose Him, but He gives you that freedom. 29:20 Friend, I hope you enjoyed today's program. I invite you to join us again 29:24 next week. Until then, remember, "It is written: 'Man shall not 29:29 live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.'" 29:35 ♪♪ ♪♪ 29:52 ♪♪ ♪♪ 30:09 ♪♪ |
Revised 2018-03-20