い い >> It has
stood the test of
00:01:20.01\00:01:33.39
time -- God's book, the
Bible. Still relevant in today's
00:01:33.39\00:01:44.17
complex world. "It is Written,"
sharing messages of hope around
00:01:44.17\00:01:50.47
the world. い い
00:01:50.47\00:02:01.82
>> The freedom of choice, the
freedom of religion, not just an
00:02:01.82\00:02:06.12
important topic for those of
religious belief, but it is an
00:02:06.12\00:02:09.99
important topic -- a vital topic
-- to anyone and everyone.
Because society, any society,
00:02:09.99\00:02:17.57
that operates in an orderly
way allows for the freedom of
00:02:17.57\00:02:23.87
choice. I've had the distinct
privilege for two programs to
share that time with Kevin
00:02:23.87\00:02:29.34
Boonstra, Mark Johnson, and
Gerry Chipeur. Gentlemen, I'm so
00:02:29.34\00:02:33.21
thankful that each of you is
able to join us once again. >>
It's great to be with you.
00:02:33.21\00:02:36.48
>> Delighted. >> Now, when
we talk about this freedom of
00:02:36.48\00:02:40.26
choice, freedom of religion, I
just want to get right to a
little bit of review, Gerry.
00:02:40.26\00:02:45.46
And that is, why is
this topic even important?
00:02:45.46\00:02:50.27
>> Well, last time, we talked
about accommodation in the area
00:02:50.50\00:02:53.74
of education. And
accommodation applies across
00:02:53.74\00:02:58.57
the spectrum. It
applies to every area of life.
00:02:58.57\00:03:02.38
Individuals need to have the
ability to exercise their
freedoms in a diverse,
00:03:02.38\00:03:10.85
pluralistic society in order to
achieve everything that they can
00:03:10.85\00:03:17.83
as individuals. For example, in
the healthcare field, if you
want to be able to provide a
00:03:17.83\00:03:25.80
service to the public in the
context of a religious
healthcare provider, you may, in
00:03:25.80\00:03:34.04
fact, run up against government
rules and regulations that say
you must act in a certain way
00:03:34.04\00:03:41.15
with respect to life issues,
whether it's the end of life or
whether it's the beginning of
00:03:41.15\00:03:45.39
life. And those are issues where
I think accommodation becomes
the most important factor that
00:03:45.39\00:03:52.93
we take into account in order to
ensure that individuals have the
opportunity to participate in
00:03:52.93\00:04:00.34
society. >> And so, Mark,
when we talk about this issue of
00:04:00.34\00:04:03.47
accommodation, we've talked a
lot about individual rights, but
there are institutional
00:04:03.47\00:04:09.61
right -- or we've talked both
institutional and individual
00:04:09.61\00:04:14.98
rights. And we talk about
this area of accommodation, the
00:04:14.98\00:04:20.92
freedom to choose. What are your
thoughts on that? What are,
maybe, some biblical
00:04:20.92\00:04:24.73
perspectives on this freedom of
choice, and -- Gerry was talking
about it -- in this area of
00:04:24.73\00:04:30.83
medical and in healthcare? >>
Well, I think there's a biblical
00:04:30.83\00:04:34.60
perspective which assumes that
the individual has to make the
00:04:34.60\00:04:39.47
decision on the basis of their
faith experience. The Bible was
not a sort of a monolithic thing
00:04:39.47\00:04:47.75
in its own way, because it
captured the fact that the faith
that is spoken of within the
00:04:47.75\00:04:55.62
Bible context is a faith that is
lived in a very diverse
community. That becomes obvious
00:04:55.62\00:04:59.63
as you read both Old Testament
and New Testament. What becomes
interesting is when
00:04:59.63\00:05:05.00
an institution or a provider is
seeking on the basis of their
faith experience and their
00:05:05.00\00:05:13.17
understanding of the expression
of the value of life, for
instance, or the level of
00:05:13.17\00:05:19.58
intervention, which they would
feel comfortable with, they have
00:05:19.58\00:05:25.35
a choice to make. And that
choice, sometimes, runs counter
to the choices of other
00:05:25.35\00:05:31.93
individuals. So I think that the
community of faith, who,
likewise, was interested in the
00:05:31.93\00:05:41.04
educational community and the
rights and freedoms of both
scholars and professors, then
00:05:41.04\00:05:46.81
comes to a point where they look
at the rights of both the
patient and the provider.
00:05:46.81\00:05:52.25
How does that play out in a
society like Canada? >> So,
Kevin, last time, we
00:05:52.25\00:05:59.45
talked about this erosion of
rights, the erosion of freedom
of choice, as it related to
00:05:59.45\00:06:04.96
education. And as Gerry has
alluded to, we're seeing some of
00:06:04.96\00:06:08.70
those erosions taking place in
the public sector, in
healthcare. What's happening?
00:06:08.70\00:06:15.74
Maybe, more specifically, in
that arena of healthcare and the
erosion of the freedom of
00:06:15.74\00:06:22.74
religion and the
freedom of choice.
00:06:22.74\00:06:24.71
>> Right, so, maybe before I
answer this specific question,
00:06:24.71\00:06:26.98
I'll just back up a little
bit, because we're talking about
00:06:26.98\00:06:29.18
choice and freedom of religion,
and I just want to make a
00:06:29.18\00:06:31.35
comment because a lot of
times, people equate freedom of
00:06:31.35\00:06:34.26
religion with freedom of belief.
And it has to be broader than
that because the freedom to
00:06:34.26\00:06:39.53
believe isn't really a freedom
at all. You're always free
00:06:39.53\00:06:42.36
within the confines of your own
head. >> Yes. >> Even the worst
00:06:42.36\00:06:46.63
dictatorships in history allowed
freedom to believe 'cause it
can't be controlled.
00:06:46.63\00:06:49.37
You have to have the ability to
act on your freedoms -- or act
on your beliefs, rather.
00:06:49.37\00:06:53.27
You have to have the ability to
actually take your conscience,
take your desire to please God,
00:06:53.27\00:06:59.38
in however you construct that,
and act it out. Otherwise, it's
00:06:59.38\00:07:04.19
a sort of a vacuous concept.
It's not a concept that has a
00:07:04.19\00:07:08.46
lot of meaning. In one of the
prior shows, we talked a little
bit about how in order to have
00:07:08.46\00:07:12.86
order, there has to be a
consensus around morality and
what standards are going to be
00:07:12.86\00:07:18.43
applied across the entire
population. And over the last
generation or two, we've seen a
00:07:18.43\00:07:22.87
bit of deconstruction around
some of the things that -- in
Canada, North American, Western
00:07:22.87\00:07:27.74
Europe -- some of the things
that were taken as a given in
terms of morality that are no
00:07:27.74\00:07:32.85
longer like that. And when it
comes to issues of medical care,
00:07:32.85\00:07:37.22
medical institutions, medical
professionals, we've seen some
00:07:37.22\00:07:42.22
sea changes. We've seen, you
know, a couple generations ago,
we saw a bit of a sea change
00:07:42.22\00:07:46.13
when it came to issues of
abortion and ending pregnancies.
In the last number of years,
00:07:46.13\00:07:50.80
we've seen a big sea change in
Canada about physician-assisted
00:07:50.80\00:07:54.77
suicide. And those are large
issues because they're issues on
which religious groups have very
00:07:54.77\00:08:00.28
-- some religious groups have
very firm moral beliefs around
the dignity of human life...
00:08:00.28\00:08:06.61
>> Yes. >> ...and, you know,
God's role in creating life and
00:08:06.61\00:08:11.32
God's role in governing when it
might end for individuals. And
that informs a lot of the
00:08:11.32\00:08:18.76
religious thinking. Now, to the
secular mind, maybe those aren't
00:08:18.76\00:08:22.60
issues that are important, but
to religious people, they're
very important. >> Yes.
00:08:22.60\00:08:26.47
>> And so, we're seeing now,
with, particularly,
physician-assisted suicide in
00:08:26.47\00:08:30.77
Canada, we're seeing the
rollout. So, a couple years ago,
00:08:30.77\00:08:33.44
the Supreme Court of Canada said
that the Charter of Rights and
Freedoms doesn't allow a
00:08:33.44\00:08:39.28
criminal rule against
physician-assisted suicide in
00:08:39.28\00:08:44.15
all circumstances. And now our
government and our population
has had to confront that and how
00:08:44.15\00:08:47.79
that's going to be rolled out.
And now we're seeing a bit of a
conflict coming up between
00:08:47.79\00:08:52.99
religious institutions,
religious professionals, and
those who wish to end their own
00:08:52.99\00:08:57.10
lives. >> So, Mark, let's talk
a little bit about the value of
00:08:57.10\00:09:02.57
human life. From a
Judeo-Christian perspective,
00:09:02.57\00:09:06.61
from a biblical perspective,
what is the value of a human
life? >> Well, the value of the
00:09:06.61\00:09:12.35
human life is expressed in the
Christian context, probably most
eloquently, by the symbol of the
00:09:12.35\00:09:23.39
cross because the Christian
context of the value of life is
found in the willingness of
00:09:23.39\00:09:30.80
Christ, who is God Himself, to
come into the human frame and
accept the results of a world
00:09:30.80\00:09:41.14
that has become very sinful and
very distanced from God, and pay
the sacrifice so that
00:09:41.14\00:09:48.18
individuals could live, not only
for the biblical three score
years and 10, but through the
00:09:48.18\00:09:54.22
context of faith, we believe
that a Christian has the
capacity to live forever in the
00:09:54.22\00:10:00.70
kingdom that God creates. So
in that context, life is huge.
00:10:00.70\00:10:05.73
And a Christian is an individual
who has to value life and has to
00:10:05.73\00:10:12.94
understand that life, as we
understand it today, is
something that has a context
00:10:12.94\00:10:19.95
that is different than eternal
life. It is something that has
an end point and life can begin
00:10:19.95\00:10:24.35
in suffering and it can end in
suffering. But the reality is,
00:10:24.35\00:10:29.02
is that life is seen by the
Christian individual as a thing
of great consequence and great
00:10:29.02\00:10:34.56
treasure. And so there is a
reluctance on the part of some
Christians, informed by their
00:10:34.56\00:10:40.80
personal belief, to intervene in
a way that takes away life
prematurely because they would
00:10:40.80\00:10:47.74
see that as, perhaps, contrary
to God's plan for that person.
>> And so, Gerry, how does that,
00:10:47.74\00:10:52.75
then, play out in the courts?
How are we seeing that freedom
-- that choice -- of, in
00:10:52.75\00:10:58.69
the context of value of life,
what's playing out and has
played out in the courts that is
00:10:58.69\00:11:04.49
demonstrating some of the
erosions on the freedom to
choose in that arena?
00:11:04.49\00:11:08.40
>> Well, two points. The first
point is that the Supreme Court
00:11:08.40\00:11:12.13
of Canada, in the Carter case,
the seminal case on this issue
of whether or not there would be
00:11:12.13\00:11:16.87
medically assisted death in
Canada, the Supreme Court has
been very clear that there must
00:11:16.87\00:11:22.11
be an accommodation. In fact,
the Supreme Court said there
must be an accommodation
00:11:22.11\00:11:27.25
for healthcare providers,
physicians, and others on the
issue of abortion and that there
00:11:27.25\00:11:33.15
must be an accommodation for
individuals on the issue of
being forced to participate in
00:11:33.15\00:11:40.46
the act of killing one's patient
through lethal injection. In
both cases, accommodation is
00:11:40.46\00:11:48.07
mandated. What the Supreme Court
didn't do, though, was tell us
00:11:48.07\00:11:52.17
how. And so that's where the
rub comes in. That's the second
00:11:52.17\00:11:55.54
point. We are seeing lower
courts - tribunals, human rights
tribunals, and lower courts --
00:11:55.54\00:12:01.82
wrestle with this issue. And
unfortunately, they're coming
down on the wrong side.
00:12:01.82\00:12:06.15
They're coming down on the side
of "Let's force everyone to act
00:12:06.15\00:12:12.39
the same. And if you can't act
like the government wants you to
act, well, maybe you should just
00:12:12.39\00:12:18.17
get another profession." So it's
a very hard message.
Particularly, it's dissonant
00:12:18.17\00:12:24.91
with the pluralism and the
diversity that has been
celebrated in Canada over the
00:12:24.91\00:12:32.01
last 30, 40, 50 years. So I
think that -- well, at least, I
00:12:32.01\00:12:38.35
hope that our Supreme Court will
step back in and say, "Wait a
minute. [ Chuckles ]
00:12:38.35\00:12:42.19
You weren't listening. We
said, "Diversity." We said,
00:12:42.19\00:12:47.13
"Accommodation." That's the
rule, and we want you to revisit
this question and promote
00:12:47.13\00:12:54.44
accommodation within our society
so that everybody's welcome and
nobody's forced to choose
00:12:54.44\00:13:01.21
between their career and their
faith. >> Kevin, do you have any
thoughts on what Gerry just
00:13:01.21\00:13:04.35
commented on? >>
Yeah, accommodation's really
00:13:04.35\00:13:07.52
important. And there's reason to
be concerned because the courts
and tribunals don't always come
00:13:07.52\00:13:13.22
down on the right -- from my
perspective -- on the right side
00:13:13.22\00:13:16.16
of this. And here I'm thinking
about not a case in the
healthcare specifically, but a
00:13:16.16\00:13:22.80
case dealing with marriage
commissioners in Saskatchewan.
So, after same-sex marriage
00:13:22.80\00:13:27.34
became legal in Canada, there
were certain marriage
commissioners that said, "I'm
00:13:27.34\00:13:31.14
sorry, but" -- And so, marriage
commissioners, just to be clear,
00:13:31.14\00:13:34.24
these are people that have the
ability from the state to marry
people. And some of the marriage
00:13:34.24\00:13:39.31
commissioners said, "Well, for
reasons of my individual
conscience, I can't participate
00:13:39.31\00:13:44.12
in the solemnization of a
marriage that conflicts with my
religious beliefs, and I won't
00:13:44.12\00:13:49.09
do that." And in Saskatchewan,
they were told, "You can either
00:13:49.09\00:13:53.09
continue to be a marriage
commissioner and do these
marriages, or you have to cease
00:13:53.09\00:13:59.33
being a --" There was no
accommodation for them. And the
courts, in that case, it
00:13:59.33\00:14:03.30
didn't get all the way to the
Supreme Court, but the courts in
that case said, "There's no
00:14:03.30\00:14:07.01
accommodation." And so that give
us some concern around -- as
00:14:07.01\00:14:11.48
we're now coming into the
question of how robust will be
the accommodation for medical
00:14:11.48\00:14:16.85
institutions and medical --
religious medical institutions,
religious medical professionals
00:14:16.85\00:14:22.16
that say, "We have a conscience
problem in participating in the
premature ending of life."
00:14:22.16\00:14:27.23
And some of them go -- some
people go further and they say,
"We actually have an imperative
00:14:27.23\00:14:31.50
from the scriptures to tend to
these people, to help to relieve
their suffering, and not just
00:14:31.50\00:14:36.71
simply to end it prematurely."
So it's both a question of
Christian service for them as
00:14:36.71\00:14:41.81
well as a question of not
prematurely ending life. And so
there is some concern.
00:14:41.81\00:14:47.12
Gerry talked about how not
everybody's, you know, making
the right -- coming to the right
00:14:47.12\00:14:52.02
balance. And the case that was
heard in June in Ontario about
00:14:52.02\00:14:56.86
the College of Physicians and
Surgeons brought to task by the
Christian Medical and Dental
00:14:56.86\00:15:03.10
Association for propagating
ethical standards that these
Christian professionals said
00:15:03.10\00:15:10.44
"require us to do more than
we're comfortable with." And so
there are going to be
00:15:10.44\00:15:14.61
some struggles coming up in the
near future over this issue. >>
Now, Gerry, I understand you
00:15:14.61\00:15:19.58
have given expert testimony
in this area. But I want us to
00:15:19.58\00:15:23.18
maybe understand, because there
may be some viewers, some
listeners that are maybe a bit
00:15:23.18\00:15:28.92
confused. What exactly is
the medical assistance in dying
00:15:28.92\00:15:34.36
legislation? What does that say?
>> The current legislation
provides a choice for a patient
00:15:34.36\00:15:42.60
who is facing both pain that is
unremitting and a disease or a
condition that makes death
00:15:42.60\00:15:54.55
imminent. Under those
conditions, an individual can
00:15:54.55\00:15:59.62
say to their physician or to the
hospital, if you will, even a
pharmacist or a nurse
00:15:59.62\00:16:08.26
practitioner, "I would like to
end my life with your
assistance." And then, a lethal
00:16:08.26\00:16:14.37
injection or some other kind of
death is then prescribed by the
physician, the nurse
00:16:14.37\00:16:21.01
practitioner, or the pharmacist,
and the individual, after
waiting a prescribed number of
00:16:21.01\00:16:28.25
days -- 14 days -- they can, in
fact, execute upon the decision
00:16:28.25\00:16:34.29
that they've made. That's an
exception to the Criminal Code
rule that otherwise says that
00:16:34.29\00:16:41.20
anyone who assists another in
committing suicide is, in fact,
committing a crime -- murder,
00:16:41.20\00:16:50.11
under the Criminal Code. >>
Okay. And so you gave reli-- you
00:16:50.11\00:16:52.81
gave expert testimony, rather,
in this arena. Talk a little bit
00:16:52.81\00:16:57.31
about that testimony in the
context of this legislation. >>
Well, there were three points
00:16:57.31\00:17:01.18
that we made. The first is that,
in fact, in the Carter case, the
00:17:01.18\00:17:07.86
Supreme Court of Canada said
that it is up to Parliament to
create the legislation that will
00:17:07.86\00:17:14.66
allow this to occur and that if
Parliament acts reasonably, the
00:17:14.66\00:17:19.87
court will, in fact, give
deference to the regime that's
established by Parliament.
00:17:19.87\00:17:26.07
The second is that life must be
promoted and not denigrated,
degraded by this legislation.
00:17:26.07\00:17:37.09
And Parliament did accept both
of those points. The other
important point was
00:17:37.09\00:17:42.29
there must be protection for
individuals from intimidation or
abuse by the institution itself,
00:17:42.29\00:17:50.27
by the healthcare providers, by
family, by anyone who might have
a conflicting interest in trying
00:17:50.27\00:17:57.31
to convince someone to take
their own life. And that
principle of safety for
00:17:57.31\00:18:04.01
the patient, the principle of
promoting life -- and it's
important to remember that in
00:18:04.01\00:18:08.22
the Carter decision, the Supreme
Court said there is no right to
00:18:08.22\00:18:12.05
death under the Charter. There's
only a right to life. And any
legislation that is
00:18:12.05\00:18:16.29
created must, in fact,
be created in the context of
00:18:16.29\00:18:21.13
protecting life. That's the
goal. And only through the
protection of life do we see the
00:18:21.13\00:18:25.77
court saying, "Well, but in some
cases, the protection of life
actually should allow for this
00:18:25.77\00:18:31.91
kind of exception." And so from
that, the Minister of Justice
00:18:31.91\00:18:38.88
was successful in bringing
through legislation that,
unfortunately, is now being
00:18:38.88\00:18:46.15
challenged again by those who
say there should be no limit on
the individual to have
00:18:46.15\00:18:52.39
assistance in death. But at this
point in time, the government of
Canada is strongly resisting
00:18:52.39\00:18:59.30
that claim that's being brought
in a case called Lamb and
Canada. >> And so, I don't want
00:18:59.30\00:19:05.11
to overstate the facts here, but
just to summarize what you have
00:19:05.11\00:19:07.81
said. The legislation in Canada
allows someone the right -- the
right to die in a circumstance
00:19:07.81\00:19:15.15
of a terminal situation or a
very painful situation,
"unremitting pain," I believe --
00:19:15.15\00:19:20.89
>> Both of those conditions have
to be present. >> Both of those
00:19:20.89\00:19:24.43
conditions have to be present,
where someone has the right to
choose to take their life,
00:19:24.43\00:19:30.97
essentially. While, at the same
time, not enforcing that upon a
physician who may have a
00:19:30.97\00:19:38.17
religious belief that does not
allow them to assist a patient
in going that direction.
00:19:38.17\00:19:43.45
The legislation, as it sits, is
where that is at, but the
practice is that, actually, we
00:19:43.45\00:19:49.15
see physicians being forced in
this area or being -- having
things brought up against them
00:19:49.15\00:19:57.26
because they've not chosen that.
Have I overstated that? >> Well,
the Parliament received
00:19:57.26\00:20:02.26
counsel from their own legal
advisors, suggesting that
Parliament should not deal with
00:20:02.26\00:20:09.40
the issue of the accommodation.
They were told that the
accommodation provision must be
00:20:09.40\00:20:16.31
instituted by provincial
legislation because of the
difference between federal and
00:20:16.31\00:20:21.78
provincial jurisdiction
under our Constitution. >> Okay.
00:20:21.78\00:20:24.85
>> So the provinces have that
duty. And unfortunately, while
00:20:24.85\00:20:28.79
some provinces have gone out of
their way to accommodate -- and
they should be praised for
00:20:28.79\00:20:34.96
that -- some provinces have gone
out of their way the other way,
to, basically, say, "We're going
00:20:34.96\00:20:41.50
to be in your face and we're
going to say to you, even though
there's many physicians and many
00:20:41.50\00:20:47.24
hospitals out there that are
prepared to provide a medical
assistance in death, we want to
00:20:47.24\00:20:52.41
force everyone to bow to this
common requirement of
participation in the provision
00:20:52.41\00:21:02.19
of medical assistance in death.
>> Chris, can I just correct one
00:21:02.19\00:21:06.26
thing you said? >> Please. >>
You said it was the -- a right
to commit suicide or a
00:21:06.26\00:21:09.40
right to end one's life. >> Yes.
>> The right is actually to have
00:21:09.40\00:21:12.47
somebody else end your life...
>> Okay. >> ...to be assisted by
00:21:12.47\00:21:15.80
another person. >> Okay.
>> And that's where the right
00:21:15.80\00:21:18.71
has the potential to create
a duty on the other person to
00:21:18.71\00:21:23.55
participate. And that's the
conflict. >> Okay. >> It's the
conflict between the
00:21:23.55\00:21:26.18
right of an individual now,
under Canadian law, in
circumstances of grievous and
00:21:26.18\00:21:30.59
irremediable suffering leading
-- that will lead to death, to
ask somebody else to
00:21:30.59\00:21:35.39
end their life for them, to
assist them in that, and the
extent to which that is going to
00:21:35.39\00:21:40.30
impose a duty, either on
religious institutions that run
hospitals or care homes or on
00:21:40.30\00:21:46.13
religious professionals who say,
"I can't participate in that."
That's the tension between the
00:21:46.13\00:21:51.31
right to ask somebody else for
assistance and the right not to
00:21:51.31\00:21:55.64
participate. >> And I want to
probe that a little more deeply
because you were talking earlier
00:21:55.64\00:21:59.38
about the marriage issue. And so
-- and I want to get back to
this basis of why we are
00:21:59.38\00:22:05.39
where we are, and that is, there
are physicians who are
comfortable with this practice,
00:22:05.39\00:22:12.83
as there are those who are
marrying that are comfortable in
00:22:12.83\00:22:18.03
that situation. Why do we see in
society this idea of trying to
force someone when there are
00:22:18.03\00:22:24.07
many options -- maybe the word
"many" is an overstatement, but
there are other options in which
00:22:24.07\00:22:30.38
if my physician will not assist
me or an individual will not
marry me, why are we at a place
00:22:30.38\00:22:38.15
in society where we want to try
to enforce our particular belief
00:22:38.15\00:22:44.46
on someone else? >> Right, so,
in some ways, it comes out of
our commitment, our laudable
00:22:44.46\00:22:50.03
commitment, in this country to
human rights, even in the
private sphere. So, you know, we
00:22:50.03\00:22:55.54
don't allow restaurants to
refuse entry to people because
of their race, and rightly so,
00:22:55.54\00:23:01.41
or because of their religion.
But what we haven't done,
historically, a very good job of
00:23:01.41\00:23:06.21
is saying, "Well, what happens
when the reason for the refusal
isn't bigotry, but the reason
00:23:06.21\00:23:12.12
for a refusal to provide some
service -- if it's a marriage
ceremony or a wedding cake or
00:23:12.12\00:23:19.06
it's assistance in dying -- what
if that comes out of a
fundamental core religious
00:23:19.06\00:23:25.57
belief that is, in itself,
worthy of protection? And that's
00:23:25.57\00:23:29.80
the struggle we're having now.
It's this enforcement of
anti-discrimination, which, in
00:23:29.80\00:23:34.21
and of itself, is a good thing,
and individual rights and
freedoms, which also need to be
00:23:34.21\00:23:38.98
robustly protected. And that's
the conflict we're coming in --
00:23:38.98\00:23:44.39
coming into too frequently now.
And I think that with a lot of
our society, with the ideas of
00:23:44.39\00:23:49.76
moral relativism playing in, the
idea is, "Well, if the service
provider is refusing, they're
00:23:49.76\00:23:54.73
enforcing their morality on
somebody else." When, in
reality, all they're
00:23:54.73\00:23:58.33
doing is saying, "This is what I
feel that God -- my relationship
with God -- is calling me to
00:23:58.33\00:24:04.11
do." And that's a
very different question.
00:24:04.11\00:24:07.44
>> And so, that leads me to ask
you, Mark, in our last few
minutes here, to just really
00:24:07.44\00:24:13.85
answer the question, then,
what's at stake? What's at stake
00:24:13.85\00:24:17.02
here when we talk about this
ability to choose? >> Well, the
00:24:17.02\00:24:23.73
ability to choose is fundamental
to the whole relationship
between God and people.
00:24:23.73\00:24:29.96
We as individuals who are part
of the community of faith, if
that's where we are at, have a
00:24:29.96\00:24:36.00
sense of a God who is bigger
than we are. And if we respect
00:24:36.00\00:24:43.51
the position of God, His
pronouncements through
scripture, then the person who
00:24:43.51\00:24:50.59
is an individual who is trying
to live faith between the
weekends, if you please, is
00:24:50.59\00:24:57.39
placed in a position where
they're trying to figure out
"What does that look like? How
00:24:57.39\00:25:02.63
do I do that Monday, Tuesday,
Wednesday, Thursday?" And the
question then becomes, "Is it
00:25:02.63\00:25:08.64
possible for me to demonstrate
faith in the decisions that I
make with regard to what I do
00:25:08.64\00:25:14.51
for others and how I live my
life?" >> And, Gerry, just one
00:25:14.51\00:25:20.95
final thought. When we talk
about medical assistance in
dying, the liberty of physicians
00:25:20.95\00:25:26.22
and healthcare facilities, what
is the crux of what's at stake
when we talk about these things?
00:25:26.22\00:25:31.83
>> Well, it's simply this, do we
want to have a society where
physicians, nurses, pharmacists,
00:25:31.83\00:25:40.30
hospitals are welcome, and the
service that they provide are
welcome, whether we're going to
00:25:40.30\00:25:47.28
have a society where we bring in
rules that exclude others, not
because of what they've done,
00:25:47.28\00:25:55.52
but rather, because of what
they believe? And that's not a
00:25:55.52\00:26:00.49
society that I'd like us to
become at the end of the day. >>
And that the bottom line, as
00:26:00.49\00:26:06.06
we end our program here today,
is, gentlemen, we want a society
where there's freedom of
00:26:06.06\00:26:10.80
religion, freedom of choice, in
which we grant -- and I like the
word that you've used -- we
00:26:10.80\00:26:19.41
"carve out" an accommodation for
those who do not want to
participate because of their
00:26:19.41\00:26:27.72
religious belief,
while protecting those who do
00:26:27.72\00:26:32.35
participate. It gives us that
freedom of choice and a society
built on a solid foundation of
00:26:32.35\00:26:38.86
that freedom. Mark, could I ask
you to close us out with prayer
00:26:38.86\00:26:42.66
today? >> Of course. God, we
thank you for the ability you've
00:26:42.66\00:26:48.77
given to us to reason, to
consider what you have said, and
to give us the opportunity to
00:26:48.77\00:26:58.45
live in harmony with a society
of many people around us. Guide
us as we live that,
00:26:58.45\00:27:03.49
that we will do it in a way that
protects the freedom of all and
brings us closer to you, if that
00:27:03.49\00:27:10.36
is our choice. In
Christ's name. Amen. >> Amen.
00:27:10.36\00:27:16.53
The freedom of religion.
The freedom to choose. Making
00:27:16.53\00:27:21.57
accommodation. Carving out a
place that's safe for people who
do not necessarily consent to
00:27:21.57\00:27:27.81
the majority beliefs is an
essential component to a society
00:27:27.81\00:27:35.12
-- a free society. Today,
friend, I'd like to offer you
the DVD of this program. You can
00:27:35.12\00:27:40.56
use it to share with your
friends, use it to help build
your faith. Here's the
00:27:40.56\00:27:45.73
information you need to receive
today's offer. >> To request
00:27:45.73\00:27:49.90
today's offer, just log on
to www.ItIsWrittenCanada.ca.
00:27:49.90\00:27:54.84
That's www.ItIsWrittenCanada.ca.
And select the TV program tab.
00:27:54.84\00:28:01.24
For Canadian viewers, the offer
will be sent free and postage
00:28:01.24\00:28:04.88
paid. For viewers
outside of Canada,
00:28:04.88\00:28:07.42
shipping charges will apply.
If you prefer, you may call
00:28:07.42\00:28:11.19
toll-free at 1-888-CALLIIW.
That's 1-888-CALLIIW.
00:28:11.19\00:28:18.33
Call anytime. Lines
are open 24 hours daily.
00:28:18.33\00:28:22.13
That's 1-888-CALLIIW. Or,
if you wish, you may write
00:28:22.13\00:28:27.04
to us at It Is Written,
Box 2010, Oshawa, Ontario,
00:28:27.04\00:28:31.47
L1H 7V4. And thank
you for your prayer
00:28:31.47\00:28:35.34
requests and your generous
financial support. >> Today has
00:28:35.34\00:28:39.88
been an exciting conversation,
where we've talked about the
freedom for individuals to
00:28:39.88\00:28:44.99
choose in various capacities. I
am so glad to have been joined
by Kevin and Mark and Gerry.
00:28:44.99\00:28:50.46
Thank you so much, gentlemen,
for helping me in this
00:28:50.46\00:28:53.80
discussion. >> It's great to be
with you. >> Thank you for
having me. >> You know, friend,
00:28:53.80\00:28:59.23
God desires that people have the
freedom to choose. His greatest
00:28:59.23\00:29:04.01
characteristic, love, is defined
by the ability to say "Yes" or
00:29:04.01\00:29:09.38
to say "No." If you would like
to know more information, learn
00:29:09.38\00:29:12.68
more about a God who loves you
so much that he gives you the
00:29:12.68\00:29:15.98
right to say "Yes" or "No," I
invite you to go to
ItIsWrittenCanada.ca.
00:29:15.98\00:29:19.79
There, you can find Bible
studies to learn more about this
00:29:19.79\00:29:23.16
God. You can find
resources and other
00:29:23.16\00:29:25.23
programs to help you in that
journey. Friend, I'm so glad
00:29:25.23\00:29:29.00
that you've joined us. I pray
and I ask that you join us again
00:29:29.00\00:29:32.93
next week. Until then, remember,
it is written, "Man shall not
live by bread alone, but by
00:29:32.93\00:29:40.54
every word that proceeds
from the mouth of God." い
00:29:40.54\00:29:50.42
い い い
00:29:50.42\00:30:11.81
い
00:30:11.81\00:30:18.78