Participants:
Series Code: IIWC
Program Code: IIWC201702A
|
01:20 ♪♪ >> It has stood the test of time,
01:34 God's book, the Bible, still relevant in today's complex world. 01:44 "It Is Written," sharing messages of hope 01:48 around the world. 02:02 >> The freedom of choice -- it's the very basis of any loving relationship. 02:07 In fact, it's the basis for any orderly society, and most importantly, 02:12 the freedom of choice is the very basis of the government of God. 02:17 Today, joining me to discuss this topic, I have with me Kevin Boonstra, 02:23 lawyer from Vancouver, working also in the Fraser Valley. 02:27 We're thankful to have you here, Kevin, again, following our discussion 02:31 of last week. >> Thanks for having me back. >> And we also have with us 02:34 Mark Johnson, president of the Seventh-Day Adventist Church in Canada. 02:38 So grateful that you could be here once again with us. >> Delighted. 02:42 >> And Gerry Chipeur, lawyer from Calgary, a partner there with the firm. 02:48 We are so thankful to have you here to facilitate and help us in the discussion 02:53 on religious liberty and the freedom of choice. >> Great to be with you. 02:57 >> So, gentlemen, we've already had a full show discussing this, 03:01 and to our viewer, if you missed last week's show, 03:04 you can go to ItIsWrittenCanada.ca 03:06 or to our YouTube channel, youtube.com/iiwcanada. 03:11 There you can pick up last week's program, 03:15 which really established the foundation 03:17 for the things we'll be talking about today, but gentlemen, 03:20 we want to have a little bit of a review, and so, Mark, 03:23 I'm going to begin with you. Let's talk about this issue of freedom of choice, 03:26 freedom of religion. Why is that so important? 03:30 >> It's important because God designed individuals to do best 03:35 when they make an active choice, and in Old Testament scripture, 03:38 Book of Joshua, the statement is made, 03:40 "Choose this day who you are going to serve." And that theme is repeated 03:44 through Scripture, that it becomes an active choice on the part of an individual 03:49 to make a life of faith something which they have individualized themselves. 03:55 >> And, Kevin, in that context, the foundation... And again, we're laying 03:59 the foundation of this show here so we can help people as we get into some specifics. 04:04 Why is freedom of choice, freedom of religion so important for the foundation of a society? 04:11 >> Because if individuals don't have the ability to carve their own way in their life, 04:16 they don't have freedom at all. Lots of people say that freedom of religion 04:20 was the first freedom. In a lot of respects, it is, and it's responsible for a lot 04:24 of the other freedoms that we have, including freedom of speech. 04:28 >> Gerry, what are your thoughts? 04:29 >> Well, pluralism is critical to the society today 04:33 because there are so many differences, 04:37 and those differences could divide us or in a real way 04:42 they could bring us together because we recognize that that diversity 04:47 makes us stronger, and that's the kind of society that can truly 04:52 respect religious freedom. >> And, you know, what's important 04:55 about our discussion here is all of us are Christians, and many times 05:00 the very public face of Christianity is "Do it my way, or else," 05:07 but what we see in the Bible throughout the scriptures is a God of love who gives choice. 05:11 At the very beginning, at the foundation, in the Garden of Eden, He 05:15 gives freedom of choice. Choose what you're going to do. You see it continuing 05:20 in the Old Testament, in the Book of Joshua, "Choose you this day," 05:24 on into the New Testament, Jesus choosing the narrow way or the wide way, 05:29 and what we see is that God gives a choice because in order for love 05:33 to truly be love, there must be a choice. There must be the ability 05:38 to choose. So we talk about this religious liberty 05:42 and the freedom of choice, and, Gerry, I'm going to come right 05:44 at you here with a question. Why should this even matter to anybody -- to Christians, 05:50 but also to anyone else in society? Why should this even matter? 05:54 >> Well, if we don't have a big society that includes everyone under the tent, 06:00 then someone is going to be excluded, and society is going to be 06:04 the lesser for it. When I think back to the time when I first started practicing 06:10 law, 1985, a very important case was decided that year 06:14 by the Supreme Court of Canada. It was the case ofO'Malley vs. Simpson-Sears, 06:19 and in that case, a Seventh-Day Adventist by the name of O'Malley 06:24 told her employer that she could not work on Saturdays, her Sabbath. 06:30 The employer said, "That is a neutral work rule. You have to come to work 06:34 on that day or you're fired." Well, she took her case to the Human Rights Commission, 06:40 and it went to the Supreme Court of Canada. And the Supreme Court said that 06:45 the human rights laws of Canada require a reasonable accommodation of anyone 06:52 whose faith can be reasonably accommodated without undue hardship 06:58 within the workplace, and they found that Simpson-Sears could have given her 07:03 another set of work hours to fulfill her duties to her employer, 07:10 and that case then led on to others over the years where that principle 07:15 of reasonable accommodation was applied in many other areas, for example, the disability 07:21 community, where you have individuals who, if you did not make an 07:25 accommodation for them at work, could not work at all. So it applies not just to every 07:30 faith that's out there, but every one of the protected grounds that set forth 07:34 in section 15 of our Charter, and set forth in our human rights laws. 07:39 So that's why it's important, and I think that if we understand 07:43 how important it is to include every individual within our society, 07:47 then we'll want to accommodate them because we want everybody 07:51 to be a contributing member of society. >> This is a...This provides 07:55 a great foundation, and, Mark, I'm going to ask you a question in just a moment 07:59 because what we see is that a case in which a Seventh-Day Adventist 08:04 was involved, a religion case, actually helped provide not just religious freedom, 08:10 but actually other freedoms for people that were outside of the faith community. 08:15 It provided that basis, and so just as I asked Gerry why this is so important 08:22 in the Christian context, why is the freedom of religion so important 08:26 just beyond the grand composition... Why should it be so important 08:31 to those in the Christian community? >> Well, I think, Chris, 08:36 there is an imperative for a person of faith, and that is to take care 08:41 of those who surround him to the extent that he can, in other words, 08:46 to be an advocate for the individual who is a student, 08:51 to be an advocate for the individual who is a teacher, 08:55 a professor in a setting, to demonstrate that the rights which need to be recognized 09:02 and need to be protected are there for those individuals because if we are not engaged 09:08 in that, then we are not active in the expression 09:12 of what faith means and what citizenship means as well. 09:16 >> And that's a powerful statement. You know, not only does the 09:19 Bible describe God as giving the freedom of choice and being loving, 09:23 which is that freedom of choice, but the Bible also describes God as someone who provides refuge, 09:28 who is a shield, who provides strength, and so for those in the faith 09:32 community, religion liberty is so vital because not only does it provide 09:37 continued freedom for those within the religious context, but it also provides freedoms 09:42 for those outside of the context, and we must never forget that. 09:47 Kevin, we will be talking about some specific cases, and there are some of 09:52 our viewers, some of our listeners, who are saying right away, 09:56 "But there's things happening where we're actually beginning to see the erosion 10:01 of those religious liberties." So I want to ask you this question. 10:06 How are we at where we are now, where these liberties we're seeing through cases 10:13 in the courts beginning to erode? >> Freedom of religion in our 10:19 society was a very hard-fought freedom. You think about the history 10:24 of western civilization through the Middle Ages, through the Spanish Inquisition, 10:30 and people came to North America to seek refuge. It was a hard-fought freedom, 10:36 and it was treasured for that reason. I don't think in our modern 10:40 society, we're seeing it treasured in the same way. 10:43 In part I look to moral relativism as part of the reason that 10:49 we're ending up where we are. People just don't view religion as having the value 10:55 that it used to have. If everybody can have their own sets of values, 10:59 their own sets of morals, and as we're seeing, sometimes even their own sets 11:03 of facts, then how much value is there on organizations that say, 11:08 "We actually know what is moral and what's not through our study and our relationship with God"? 11:15 They don't value it in the same way, and if they don't value it, they don't see the need 11:19 to protect it, and I see in a lot of circumstances, 11:23 that's what we're seeing, and as generations have gone through our school system 11:27 and have learned this more and more, I see less and less value 11:31 that's placed on religion and its role in our society generally, 11:34 which results in less of a desire to protect it. >> And, you know, I take 11:38 from that, Kevin, a lesson, and we're going to get into some of the very specific cases 11:43 where we can open up a dialogue, but I want to stick on that for just a moment 11:47 because I think there are two lessons that go hand in hand here. 11:51 The erosion of religious liberty is related to this idea of moral relativism, 11:57 which has come through the devaluization of religion communities, 12:02 religious organizations. Would it be overarching for me to say that that devaluization 12:08 has come as a result of Christians' also, and I say Christians' -- 12:13 of religious bodies' not recognize also that while there is religious freedom, 12:19 there is also the freedom of thought and expression of individuals 12:23 who are outside of those communities of faith? And I'll just kind of lay that 12:26 out there for anybody to jump in on that one. >> Let me respond to that. 12:31 I think you're absolutely right. I think that as Christians, we haven't always 12:35 valued the freedom of religion of others. When Gerry was mentioning 12:38 a big case in 1985, I actually thought he was going to talk about 12:41 the Big M Drug Mart case, which was about... which was in the same year, 12:45 and it was about whether the Lord's Day Act, the federal legislation 12:48 at the time, which mandated Sunday closures for businesses, and as I say, it was called 12:55 the Lord's Day Act. It had a religion purpose, and a lot of Christian groups 13:00 defended that, but really what it did is caused harm 13:04 to non-Christian groups, at least non-Christian groups that didn't worship on Sunday, 13:09 and all too often, we see Christian groups in the courts defending 13:14 their own majoritarian rule on certain issues, and to that extent, 13:19 I think Christianity has done itself a disservice. >> And if I could ask you, 13:23 and I'll turn to you, Gerry, on that issue because you talked about this broad-based value, 13:29 so I want to probe that a little more deeply. There is an intrinsic value 13:33 that as Christians or non-Christians, that there is this freedom 13:37 to choose and freedom of religion. So maybe let's go a little bit 13:43 more in depth there and talk about why even more so is that important 13:48 to all communities, whether a faith community or a non-faith community? 13:52 >> Well, I think that's a very good question, and it's a question that arose 13:56 for everyone right after World War II because World War II was really 14:00 about several governments deciding that they would exclude anyone 14:06 that was different than their ideal for a human being. >> Yes. 14:11 >> In response to that, the United Nations was created, and the Universal Declaration 14:16 of Human Rights was written. Eleanor Roosevelt gets credit 14:21 for it because she was the chair of the committee, but in fact a Canadian 14:24 by the name of Jonathan Peters Humphrey, a Canadian out of New Brunswick, 14:29 professor at McGill, he actually wrote the first draft of that document, 14:33 and that document ultimately led to our Charter, and the principle is that 14:39 government may not impose its view of the good life, its view 14:44 of what people should think, what people should believe, upon individual... 14:49 that the individual will make that decision for themselves, and that it's the government's 14:53 role to allow the individual to in fact achieve 14:57 those objectives, and to in fact be everything that they want to be, 15:02 whether it's with respect to political thought or religious thought 15:06 or any other kind of thought. And as we now face 2017 and 2018, 15:16 we now see government again thinking that they know better than the individual, 15:22 and we now have some cases that the courts are wrestling with. 15:27 One case out of British Columbia, Trinity Western University, 15:31 a case where a Christian evangelical university just wants to be able to educate 15:40 lawyers within the context of a Christian community. Well, the government 15:46 and lawyers, unfortunately, themselves, and I'm a lawyer, 15:50 and include myself in that profession, that profession has not been 15:56 welcoming to the idea of a Christian law school. 16:01 There was also a case out of Quebec called Loyola. 16:05 Loyola High School wanted to just be able to teach the Roman Catholic faith 16:10 within a high school setting, and the Quebec government said, "We know better 16:14 how to teach ethics. We're going to tell you as a Christian school 16:18 how you will teach your own faith and transmit your faith 16:23 on to your students, your children." So we have a number 16:27 of these kinds of cases that are going through the courts. Fortunately, inLoyola, 16:33 the Supreme Court ruled in favor of the faith community. Hopefully that will be the case 16:38 with some of these others as well. >> So let me summarize a few of 16:41 the things that you have said, and then I want to come back to theTrinitycase, 16:46 but this matters to everyone. You talked about the case in 1985 16:51 where there is a government legislation of a particular day of worship, 16:58 which affects... While people in the Christian community may say, 17:03 "Hey, this is wonderful, this is great," and at its outset and looking on 17:06 the surface it may be. However, what about the Jew, who is an 17:11 individual who keeps Sabbath? What about a Seventh-Day Adventist, 17:14 who keeps a Saturday Sabbath? What about a Muslim, who keeps a Friday day of worship 17:20 or other faith communities that keep other days of worship? And we've seen 17:25 throughout history... I've just had an opportunity to visit Europe 17:28 and see through some of the history of the Middle Ages. Every time throughout history, 17:34 when a government gets involved with legislating religion, it spells very bad news 17:39 for the minority, and you speak of World War II. I had opportunity while I was 17:44 there to visit the Netherlands and visited there in Haarlem, the home of Corrie ten Boom, 17:50 Corrie ten Boom's family hiding Jews during that time, and I stood there in front 17:56 of the map that showed the various concentration camps and the individuals that died 18:01 at those concentration camps, and I asked myself the question, "How is it possible, 18:07 how is it possible, that this many millions of people could have died 18:12 and no one was really doing much about it for a period of time?" Obviously the war occurred, 18:17 but before the war, this was all happening and there were not individuals 18:20 stepping in, and what I hear you saying, Gerry, is for everyone, 18:25 Christian and non-Christian alike, Jew, Muslim, 18:29 secular, atheist, agnostic, moral relativist, whatever category 18:35 you may find yourself in, the freedom of religion and the freedom to choose 18:39 is essential because as soon as that's taken away, while it may affect someone else 18:45 initially, eventually it will affect me. Would I be stating 18:48 that too much? >> You think you've hit it right on the head. 18:52 >> Okay. Kevin, I want to come to this Trinitycase. 18:56 Let's talk about the Trincase. What's happening 18:58 in theTrinitycase? Maybe give us a little bit of background foundations 19:01 on thisTrinitycase. >> Sure, and I want to be a bit careful. 19:05 The matter is before the courts right now. I'm counsel for Trinity Western, 19:08 and I want to be clear I'm not here speaking for Trinity, 19:12 and let's just talk in generalities about the case. >> Yes. 19:16 >> So Trinity Western is an evangelical Christian university, 19:19 wishes to open a law school. In order to do that, it needed a couple levels of approval. 19:25 It needed ministerial approval from the BC government for the degree that was granted. 19:30 It needed recognition of its graduates so that when they graduate 19:33 from law school they can actually practice law. It's a great degree to have, 19:37 but if you can't practice law out of it, it's less useful. >> Yes. 19:41 >> And so they went to an organization called the Federation of Law Societies, 19:44 which looked at the program and said, "We think that graduates should 19:48 be recognized as lawyers." Then a number of law societies for different reasons 19:52 across the country looked at it, and three law societies said, "We're not going to recognize 19:57 the graduates," Nova Scotia, Ontario and British Columbia, British Columbia after 20:01 a bit of a tortured process that I won't get into. In Nova Scotia... 20:06 So, Trinity Western sought judicial review of all three decisions. 20:10 In Nova Scotia, it went to the Court of Appeal. Trinity Western was successful. 20:14 In British Columbia, it's gone through the Court of Appeal, and now before the Supreme Court 20:18 of Canada, Trinity Western was successful. In Ontario, Trinity Western 20:22 was unsuccessful, so we've had these competing decisions, and so the Ontario 20:27 court decision and the BC court decision are now before 20:30 the Supreme Court of Canada and awaiting a decision. The concern that the law 20:38 societies had is with a code of conduct within the Trinity Western community, 20:42 all based on biblical ideals for a Christian life, including rules and restrictions 20:51 around sexual behavior and the traditional definition of marriage. 20:57 A couple of the law societies said, "We view that to be discriminatory." 21:00 In the last show I talked a bit about how this equality right is starting to be imposed within 21:07 private communities. This is an example of that, where the law society said, 21:11 "We don't think your community treats members of the LGBT community 21:15 equally," and so they said, "We're not going to recognize your graduates 21:19 as a result of that." Nobody questions the ability of these people to practice law, 21:24 that they'll be adequately educated and professional in the practice, but they say 21:27 because of what they view to be discriminatory, this exclusionary effect 21:33 that a religious code of conduct has, that not everybody is comfortable 21:36 within that community. These law societies have said, "We're not going to recognize 21:39 your graduates," and so that's the matter that's before the courts. 21:42 >> So, Gerry, what do we do with this? I mean, we've got the... 21:46 And I know you're not a judge in this case, but what do we do with this? 21:51 How should we react? And maybe speak of it... and I've very 21:56 much appreciated... Speak of it in a general sense. So obviously for the Christian, 22:00 the Christian says, "Oh, you know, I want to defend the right of Christianity 22:03 to live how we choose to live," so on and so forth, but what happens if this case 22:08 is not found in favor of Trinity Western for the general population? 22:13 What can we see and expect to happen as, for lack of a better word, 22:17 the domino effect? >> Well, I can do no better than to quote the British Columbia 22:23 Court of Appeal itself. Five judges in British Columbia were unanimous in concluding 22:29 that if we do not protect this small -- relatively small compared 22:36 to other universities, this Christian university -- then what will happen is that 22:43 in an attempt to promote tolerance and promote liberal democratic values, 22:51 we will be illiberal and intolerant. In other words, pluralism 22:56 really means to allow each individual to choose their own path, 23:03 and if they're different than you, that's to be celebrated 23:09 in the sense that you know that they're going in a direction 23:13 that they believe in. And you may disagree. You may in a sense strongly 23:18 disagree, and you may argue, and you may debate, but that's what a democracy 23:23 does. It argues and debates ideas. It does not silence or censor. 23:28 And that's really what's going on here is there is an attempt 23:31 to silence, censor, and in face extinguish any kind of Christian 23:37 contribution to the legal debate by simply saying, 23:41 "You may not exist." And the outcome of that, according to the five judges 23:46 of the Court of Appeal in British Columbia, is that our society will be 23:51 illiberal and our society will be intolerant. So that's the outcome 23:56 that we will have if we do not stand up for Trinity Western University 24:02 in this case. >> That's powerful, Gerry. Mark, the Seventh-Day Adventist 24:06 Church in Canada, a fairly significant religious body within Canada. 24:12 What has been the church's reaction to the Trinity Western case 24:17 and how the church views the case? >> Well, the church is 24:23 interested in the sense that the people are interested because this affects people. 24:29 The church in and of itself needs to be transparent, if you will, to the whole 24:34 process of the thing, but as a friend of the individuals 24:38 who are probing the question and have placed it before the courts, 24:42 the church seeks to make sure that the right of individuals to be students in that context, 24:50 the right of professors to teach in that context, are respected 24:55 and affirmed in the context of Canadian citizenship today. Because if we don't, 25:01 then we've got a problem just as Gerry has explained. >> And that's a powerful thing. 25:06 We're not just talking about an issue of Christianity versus everyone else. 25:09 What we're talking about, Gerry, if I hear you, is in a general sense, 25:15 and, Kevin, I want to get your thoughts on this, in a general sense, 25:19 when we don't protect the rights of the minority, whether we agree 25:24 with those rights or with those values or not, when we don't protect 25:28 those rights, we have actually opened the door that sometime our rights 25:33 may be infringed upon as well. Maybe some general thoughts on that, Kevin, when it comes 25:38 to not this specific case, but in many of these cases, and we're going to be discussing 25:43 some others, of the importance of valuing someone else's beliefs. 25:49 >> Yeah, and that's really what a lot of these cases are about is recognizing 25:54 and valuing the right of people to believe differently, to establish 25:58 their own communities. The Loycase that I think Gerry referenced 26:02 a few moments ago, that case came out of a mandatory curriculum 26:06 in the Quebec system, a curriculum called the Ethics and Religious Culture 26:11 curriculum that was mandated for both public and private schools in which 26:16 schools were being taught how to teach about religion. There were two cases that went 26:21 to the Supreme Court of Canada out of that curriculum. The first case was parents 26:26 in the public system who said, "We object to this. We object to having our children 26:31 compelled to learn about religion in a manner that undermines 26:33 the lessons that we're teaching at home," and the Supreme Court of Canada 26:36 said that, no, the curriculum doesn't go that far, 26:39 and those parents were unsuccessful. But then you saw 26:42 Loyola High School, a Catholic high school in Quebec that said, 26:47 "Hold it. You're actually requiring a Catholic school to teach ethics and religion 26:54 from a neutral perspective, and we're a Catholic school. We want to teach religion 26:59 from a Catholic perspective," and the minister in Quebec said, "No," said, 27:04 "No, you must teach it from a neutral perspective," and so Loyola bravely took 27:08 the matter all the way to the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court of Canada 27:10 said, "Yes. It is an infringement of your religious freedom, 27:14 to be compelled in a Catholic community, educational community, 27:17 to instruct children on Catholicism from a neutral and non-Catholic perspective. 27:23 Actually the judges split on whether or not the Catholic school Loyola 27:27 could teach other religions from a Catholic perspective. The majority said, "No. 27:33 You can still teach those from more of a neutral perspective," but at least they recognized 27:37 the ability of Loyola to teach Catholicism from a Catholic perspective. 27:40 So, you know, again, it's an example of setting up religious communities, 27:44 setting up institutions in which we're all at home. >> And that is fundamental 27:49 to everything we've talked about, gentlemen. It's hard to believe 27:51 we're completely out of time. But the basis of freedom of religion, 27:55 freedom of choice, and protecting the rights of all people, 27:59 no matter if they're in the minority. Let's end today with prayer. 28:03 Heavenly Father, we thank you that you have established the human 28:07 right to freedom of choice. Let all of us be people who advocate for that as well. 28:14 We pray in Jesus' name. Amen. My dear friends, the freedom 28:20 to choose is essential not only in the Christian context, 28:24 but in a general society that is operating in an orderly way. 28:29 Today I want to offer you a free DVD of this program, that you can use this program 28:34 and help it to develop your faith further. Here is the information you need 28:38 for today's offer. >> To request today's offer, 28:41 just log on to www.ItIsWrittenCanada.ca. 28:46 That's www.ItIsWrittenCanada.ca. If you prefer, you may call 28:52 toll-free at 1-888-CALLIIW. That's 1-888-CALLIIW. 28:59 Dear friend, the very foundation of the government of God 29:03 is the freedom to choose. In order for love to truly be 29:06 love, it gives us the ability to say, 29:08 "Yes," or to say, "No." That's the kind of God 29:12 that the Bible presents. Now, if you want to learn more 29:15 about God, I want to invite you to go to our website, 29:18 ItIsWrittenCanada.ca. You can follow us on Twitter. 29:22 You can go to our Facebook. There you can learn about 29:25 different activities and different resources 29:28 in which you can further develop a relationship 29:31 with this God, whose very foundation 29:34 is the freedom to choose. Thank you so much for joining us today. 29:38 I invite you to join us again next week. Until then, 29:41 remember it is written, "Man shall not live by bread alone, 29:45 but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." ♪♪ 29:59 ♪♪ ♪♪ |
Revised 2018-02-12