¤¤ >> It has
stood the test of time,
00:01:20.01\00:01:34.72
God's book, the Bible, still
relevant in today's complex
00:01:34.72\00:01:44.03
world. "It Is Written,"
sharing messages of hope
00:01:44.03\00:01:48.24
around the world.
00:01:48.24\00:01:50.61
>> The freedom of choice -- it's
the very basis of any loving
00:02:02.08\00:02:07.02
relationship. In fact, it's the
basis for any orderly society,
and most importantly,
00:02:07.02\00:02:12.93
the freedom of choice is the
very basis of the government of
00:02:12.93\00:02:17.77
God. Today, joining me to
discuss this topic, I have with
00:02:17.77\00:02:23.30
me Kevin Boonstra, lawyer from
Vancouver, working also in the
00:02:23.30\00:02:27.08
Fraser Valley. We're thankful to
have you here, Kevin, again,
following our discussion
00:02:27.08\00:02:31.51
of last week. >> Thanks for
having me back. >> And we also
00:02:31.51\00:02:34.92
have with us Mark Johnson,
president of the Seventh-Day
Adventist Church in Canada.
00:02:34.92\00:02:38.49
So grateful that you could
be here once again with us. >>
00:02:38.49\00:02:42.29
Delighted. >> And Gerry Chipeur,
lawyer from Calgary, a partner
there with the firm.
00:02:42.29\00:02:48.23
We are so thankful to have you
here to facilitate and help us
00:02:48.23\00:02:53.64
in the discussion on religious
liberty and the freedom of
choice. >> Great to be with you.
00:02:53.64\00:02:57.81
>> So, gentlemen, we've already
had a full show discussing this,
00:02:57.81\00:03:01.68
and to our viewer, if
you missed last week's show,
00:03:01.68\00:03:04.45
you can go to
ItIsWrittenCanada.ca
00:03:04.45\00:03:06.72
or to our YouTube
channel, youtube.com/iiwcanada.
00:03:06.72\00:03:11.79
There you can pick
up last week's program,
00:03:11.79\00:03:15.39
which really
established the foundation
00:03:15.39\00:03:17.53
for the things we'll be talking
about today, but gentlemen,
00:03:17.53\00:03:20.73
we want to have a little
bit of a review, and so, Mark,
00:03:20.73\00:03:23.57
I'm going to begin with you.
Let's talk about this issue of
00:03:23.57\00:03:26.80
freedom of choice, freedom
of religion. Why is that so
00:03:26.80\00:03:30.74
important? >> It's important
because God designed individuals
00:03:30.74\00:03:35.08
to do best when they make an
active choice, and in Old
Testament scripture,
00:03:35.08\00:03:38.38
Book of Joshua,
the statement is made,
00:03:38.38\00:03:40.58
"Choose this day who you are
going to serve." And that theme
00:03:40.58\00:03:44.82
is repeated through Scripture,
that it becomes an active choice
on the part of an individual
00:03:44.82\00:03:49.79
to make a life of faith
something which they have
individualized themselves.
00:03:49.79\00:03:55.40
>> And, Kevin, in that context,
the foundation... And again,
00:03:55.40\00:03:59.63
we're laying the foundation of
this show here so we can help
people as we get into some
00:03:59.63\00:04:04.94
specifics. Why is freedom of
choice, freedom of religion so
important for the foundation of
00:04:04.94\00:04:11.81
a society? >> Because if
individuals don't have the
ability to carve their own way
00:04:11.81\00:04:16.62
in their life, they don't have
freedom at all. Lots of people
say that freedom of religion
00:04:16.62\00:04:20.59
was the first freedom. In a lot
of respects, it is, and it's
responsible for a lot
00:04:20.59\00:04:24.99
of the other freedoms that
we have, including freedom of
00:04:24.99\00:04:28.06
speech. >> Gerry,
what are your thoughts?
00:04:28.06\00:04:29.60
>> Well, pluralism is
critical to the society today
00:04:29.60\00:04:33.77
because there are
so many differences,
00:04:33.77\00:04:37.47
and those differences
could divide us or in a real way
00:04:37.47\00:04:42.44
they could bring us together
because we recognize that that
00:04:42.44\00:04:47.65
diversity makes us stronger, and
that's the kind of society that
00:04:47.65\00:04:52.75
can truly respect religious
freedom. >> And, you know,
00:04:52.75\00:04:55.59
what's important about our
discussion here is all of us are
Christians, and many times
00:04:55.59\00:05:00.20
the very public face of
Christianity is "Do it my way,
00:05:00.20\00:05:07.07
or else," but what we see in the
Bible throughout the scriptures
is a God of love who gives
00:05:07.07\00:05:11.94
choice. At the very beginning,
at the foundation, in the Garden
00:05:11.94\00:05:15.28
of Eden, He gives freedom of
choice. Choose what you're going
to do. You see it continuing
00:05:15.28\00:05:20.12
in the Old Testament, in the
Book of Joshua, "Choose you this
00:05:20.12\00:05:24.82
day," on into the New Testament,
Jesus choosing the narrow way or
00:05:24.82\00:05:29.59
the wide way, and what we see is
that God gives a choice because
00:05:29.59\00:05:33.83
in order for love to truly be
love, there must be a choice.
There must be the ability
00:05:33.83\00:05:38.63
to choose. So we talk
about this religious liberty
00:05:38.63\00:05:42.30
and the freedom of choice, and,
Gerry, I'm going to come right
00:05:42.30\00:05:44.84
at you here with a question. Why
should this even matter to
anybody -- to Christians,
00:05:44.84\00:05:50.35
but also to anyone else in
society? Why should this even
00:05:50.35\00:05:54.25
matter? >> Well, if we don't
have a big society that includes
everyone under the tent,
00:05:54.25\00:06:00.92
then someone is going to be
excluded, and society is going
00:06:00.92\00:06:04.53
to be the lesser for it. When I
think back to the time when I
first started practicing
00:06:04.53\00:06:10.07
law, 1985, a very important
case was decided that year
00:06:10.07\00:06:14.20
by the Supreme Court of Canada.
It was the case ofO'Malley vs.
00:06:14.20\00:06:19.74
Simpson-Sears, and in that case,
a Seventh-Day Adventist by the
00:06:19.74\00:06:24.68
name of O'Malley told her
employer that she could not work
on Saturdays, her Sabbath.
00:06:24.68\00:06:30.32
The employer said, "That is a
neutral work rule. You have to
00:06:30.32\00:06:34.86
come to work on that day or
you're fired." Well, she took
her case to the Human Rights
00:06:34.86\00:06:40.23
Commission, and it went to the
Supreme Court of Canada. And the
Supreme Court said that
00:06:40.23\00:06:45.03
the human rights laws of Canada
require a reasonable
accommodation of anyone
00:06:45.03\00:06:52.47
whose faith can be reasonably
accommodated without undue
00:06:52.47\00:06:58.68
hardship within the workplace,
and they found that
Simpson-Sears could have given
00:06:58.68\00:07:03.08
her another set of work hours
to fulfill her duties to her
00:07:03.08\00:07:10.09
employer, and that case then led
on to others over the years
where that principle
00:07:10.09\00:07:15.73
of reasonable accommodation was
applied in many other areas, for
example, the disability
00:07:15.73\00:07:21.07
community, where you have
individuals who, if you did not
00:07:21.07\00:07:25.04
make an accommodation for them
at work, could not work at all.
So it applies not just to every
00:07:25.04\00:07:30.25
faith that's out there, but
every one of the protected
grounds that set forth
00:07:30.25\00:07:34.52
in section 15 of our Charter,
and set forth in our human
00:07:34.52\00:07:39.35
rights laws. So that's why it's
important, and I think that if
00:07:39.35\00:07:43.63
we understand how important it
is to include every individual
within our society,
00:07:43.63\00:07:47.23
then we'll want to accommodate
them because we want everybody
00:07:47.23\00:07:51.23
to be a contributing member
of society. >> This is a...This
00:07:51.23\00:07:55.87
provides a great foundation,
and, Mark, I'm going to ask you
a question in just a moment
00:07:55.87\00:07:59.37
because what we see is that
a case in which a Seventh-Day
00:07:59.37\00:08:04.51
Adventist was involved, a
religion case, actually helped
provide not just religious
00:08:04.51\00:08:10.32
freedom, but actually other
freedoms for people that were
outside of the faith community.
00:08:10.32\00:08:15.22
It provided that basis, and so
just as I asked Gerry why this
00:08:15.22\00:08:22.06
is so important in the Christian
context, why is the freedom of
religion so important
00:08:22.06\00:08:26.47
just beyond the grand
composition... Why should it be
00:08:26.47\00:08:31.64
so important to those in the
Christian community? >> Well, I
00:08:31.64\00:08:36.68
think, Chris, there is an
imperative for a person of
faith, and that is to take care
00:08:36.68\00:08:41.82
of those who surround him to
the extent that he can, in other
00:08:41.82\00:08:46.69
words, to be an advocate for
the individual who is a student,
00:08:46.69\00:08:51.03
to be an advocate for the
individual who is a teacher,
00:08:51.03\00:08:55.06
a professor in a setting, to
demonstrate that the rights
which need to be recognized
00:08:55.06\00:09:02.57
and need to be protected are
there for those individuals
because if we are not engaged
00:09:02.57\00:09:08.81
in that, then we are
not active in the expression
00:09:08.81\00:09:12.71
of what faith means and
what citizenship means as well.
00:09:12.71\00:09:16.12
>> And that's a powerful
statement. You know, not only
00:09:16.12\00:09:19.32
does the Bible describe God as
giving the freedom of choice and
00:09:19.32\00:09:23.56
being loving, which is that
freedom of choice, but the Bible
also describes God as someone
00:09:23.56\00:09:28.80
who provides refuge, who is a
shield, who provides strength,
and so for those in the faith
00:09:28.80\00:09:32.63
community, religion liberty is
so vital because not only does
00:09:32.63\00:09:37.11
it provide continued freedom for
those within the religious
context, but it also provides
00:09:37.11\00:09:42.18
freedoms for those outside of
the context, and we must never
00:09:42.18\00:09:47.28
forget that. Kevin, we will be
talking about some specific
cases, and there are some of
00:09:47.28\00:09:52.32
our viewers, some of our
listeners, who are saying right
00:09:52.32\00:09:56.16
away, "But there's things
happening where we're actually
beginning to see the erosion
00:09:56.16\00:10:01.13
of those religious liberties."
So I want to ask you this
00:10:01.13\00:10:06.07
question. How are we at where we
are now, where these liberties
we're seeing through cases
00:10:06.07\00:10:13.74
in the courts beginning to
erode? >> Freedom of religion in
00:10:13.74\00:10:19.31
our society was a very
hard-fought freedom. You think
00:10:19.31\00:10:24.92
about the history of western
civilization through the Middle
Ages, through the Spanish
00:10:24.92\00:10:30.16
Inquisition, and people came to
North America to seek refuge. It
was a hard-fought freedom,
00:10:30.16\00:10:36.06
and it was treasured for that
reason. I don't think in our
00:10:36.06\00:10:40.34
modern society, we're seeing
it treasured in the same way.
00:10:40.34\00:10:43.84
In part I look to moral
relativism as part of the reason
00:10:43.84\00:10:49.84
that we're ending up where we
are. People just don't view
religion as having the value
00:10:49.84\00:10:55.02
that it used to have. If
everybody can have their own
00:10:55.02\00:10:59.39
sets of values, their own sets
of morals, and as we're seeing,
sometimes even their own sets
00:10:59.39\00:11:03.26
of facts, then how much value is
there on organizations that say,
00:11:03.26\00:11:08.76
"We actually know what is moral
and what's not through our study
and our relationship with God"?
00:11:08.76\00:11:15.27
They don't value it in the same
way, and if they don't value it,
they don't see the need
00:11:15.27\00:11:19.57
to protect it, and I see
in a lot of circumstances,
00:11:19.57\00:11:23.08
that's what we're seeing, and
as generations have gone through
00:11:23.08\00:11:27.95
our school system and have
learned this more and more, I
see less and less value
00:11:27.95\00:11:31.65
that's placed on religion
and its role in our society
00:11:31.65\00:11:34.99
generally, which results in less
of a desire to protect it. >>
And, you know, I take
00:11:34.99\00:11:38.79
from that, Kevin, a lesson, and
we're going to get into some of
the very specific cases
00:11:38.79\00:11:43.03
where we can open up a dialogue,
but I want to stick on that for
00:11:43.03\00:11:47.67
just a moment because I think
there are two lessons that go
00:11:47.67\00:11:51.27
hand in hand here. The erosion
of religious liberty is related
to this idea of moral
00:11:51.27\00:11:57.35
relativism, which has come
through the devaluization of
religion communities,
00:11:57.35\00:12:02.32
religious organizations. Would
it be overarching for me to say
that that devaluization
00:12:02.32\00:12:08.86
has come as a result of
Christians' also, and I say
00:12:08.86\00:12:13.60
Christians' -- of religious
bodies' not recognize also that
while there is religious
00:12:13.60\00:12:19.23
freedom, there is also the
freedom of thought and
expression of individuals
00:12:19.23\00:12:23.37
who are outside of those
communities of faith? And I'll
just kind of lay that
00:12:23.37\00:12:26.27
out there for anybody to jump in
on that one. >> Let me respond
00:12:26.27\00:12:31.28
to that. I think you're
absolutely right. I think that
as Christians, we haven't always
00:12:31.28\00:12:35.32
valued the freedom of religion
of others. When Gerry was
00:12:35.32\00:12:38.75
mentioning a big case in 1985, I
actually thought he was going to
00:12:38.75\00:12:41.32
talk about the Big M Drug Mart
case, which was about... which
was in the same year,
00:12:41.32\00:12:45.93
and it was about whether
the Lord's Day Act, the federal
00:12:45.93\00:12:48.96
legislation at the time, which
mandated Sunday closures for
businesses, and as I say, it was
00:12:48.96\00:12:55.17
called the Lord's Day Act. It
had a religion purpose, and a
lot of Christian groups
00:12:55.17\00:13:00.48
defended that, but really
what it did is caused harm
00:13:00.48\00:13:04.78
to non-Christian groups, at
least non-Christian groups that
didn't worship on Sunday,
00:13:04.78\00:13:09.38
and all too often, we see
Christian groups in the courts
00:13:09.38\00:13:14.69
defending their own majoritarian
rule on certain issues, and to
00:13:14.69\00:13:19.56
that extent, I think
Christianity has done itself a
disservice. >> And if I could
00:13:19.56\00:13:23.73
ask you, and I'll turn to you,
Gerry, on that issue because you
talked about this broad-based
00:13:23.73\00:13:29.14
value, so I want to probe that a
little more deeply. There is an
00:13:29.14\00:13:33.58
intrinsic value that as
Christians or non-Christians,
that there is this freedom
00:13:33.58\00:13:37.81
to choose and freedom of
religion. So maybe let's go a
00:13:37.81\00:13:43.52
little bit more in depth there
and talk about why even more so
00:13:43.52\00:13:48.16
is that important to all
communities, whether a faith
community or a non-faith
00:13:48.16\00:13:52.79
community? >> Well, I think
that's a very good question, and
it's a question that arose
00:13:52.79\00:13:56.63
for everyone right after World
War II because World War II was
00:13:56.63\00:14:00.30
really about several governments
deciding that they would exclude
00:14:00.30\00:14:06.61
anyone that was different than
their ideal for a human being.
00:14:06.61\00:14:11.28
>> Yes. >> In response to that,
the United Nations was created,
and the Universal Declaration
00:14:11.28\00:14:16.62
of Human Rights was written.
Eleanor Roosevelt gets credit
00:14:16.62\00:14:21.56
for it because she was the chair
of the committee, but in fact a
00:14:21.56\00:14:24.89
Canadian by the name of Jonathan
Peters Humphrey, a Canadian out
00:14:24.89\00:14:29.86
of New Brunswick, professor at
McGill, he actually wrote the
first draft of that document,
00:14:29.86\00:14:33.87
and that document ultimately
led to our Charter, and the
00:14:33.87\00:14:39.07
principle is that government may
not impose its view of the good
00:14:39.07\00:14:44.38
life, its view of what people
should think, what people should
believe, upon individual...
00:14:44.38\00:14:49.58
that the individual will make
that decision for themselves,
and that it's the government's
00:14:49.58\00:14:53.86
role to allow the
individual to in fact achieve
00:14:53.86\00:14:57.39
those objectives, and to in fact
be everything that they want to
00:14:57.39\00:15:02.33
be, whether it's with respect to
political thought or religious
00:15:02.33\00:15:06.80
thought or any other kind of
thought. And as we now face 2017
00:15:06.80\00:15:16.21
and 2018, we now see government
again thinking that they know
better than the individual,
00:15:16.21\00:15:22.92
and we now have some cases that
the courts are wrestling with.
00:15:22.92\00:15:27.79
One case out of British
Columbia, Trinity Western
00:15:27.79\00:15:31.39
University, a case where a
Christian evangelical university
just wants to be able to educate
00:15:31.39\00:15:40.64
lawyers within the context of
a Christian community. Well, the
00:15:40.64\00:15:46.84
government and lawyers,
unfortunately, themselves, and
00:15:46.84\00:15:50.65
I'm a lawyer, and include myself
in that profession, that
profession has not been
00:15:50.65\00:15:56.15
welcoming to the idea
of a Christian law school.
00:15:56.15\00:16:01.42
There was also a case
out of Quebec called Loyola.
00:16:01.42\00:16:05.36
Loyola High School wanted to
just be able to teach the Roman
00:16:05.36\00:16:10.63
Catholic faith within a high
school setting, and the Quebec
government said, "We know better
00:16:10.63\00:16:14.94
how to teach ethics. We're
going to tell you as a Christian
00:16:14.94\00:16:18.91
school how you will teach
your own faith and transmit your
00:16:18.91\00:16:23.11
faith on to your students, your
children." So we have a number
00:16:23.11\00:16:27.92
of these kinds of cases that are
going through the courts.
Fortunately, inLoyola,
00:16:27.92\00:16:33.19
the Supreme Court ruled in favor
of the faith community.
Hopefully that will be the case
00:16:33.19\00:16:38.06
with some of these others as
well. >> So let me summarize a
00:16:38.06\00:16:41.60
few of the things that you have
said, and then I want to come
back to theTrinitycase,
00:16:41.60\00:16:46.13
but this matters to everyone.
You talked about the case in
00:16:46.13\00:16:51.37
1985 where there is a government
legislation of a particular day
00:16:51.37\00:16:58.95
of worship, which affects...
While people in the Christian
00:16:58.95\00:17:03.08
community may say, "Hey, this is
wonderful, this is great," and
at its outset and looking on
00:17:03.08\00:17:06.69
the surface it may be. However,
what about the Jew, who is an
00:17:06.69\00:17:11.79
individual who keeps Sabbath?
What about a Seventh-Day
00:17:11.79\00:17:14.46
Adventist, who keeps a Saturday
Sabbath? What about a Muslim,
who keeps a Friday day of
00:17:14.46\00:17:20.67
worship or other faith
communities that keep other days
of worship? And we've seen
00:17:20.67\00:17:25.64
throughout history... I've
just had an opportunity to visit
00:17:25.64\00:17:28.18
Europe and see through some of
the history of the Middle Ages.
Every time throughout history,
00:17:28.18\00:17:34.35
when a government gets involved
with legislating religion, it
spells very bad news
00:17:34.35\00:17:39.62
for the minority, and you speak
of World War II. I had
opportunity while I was
00:17:39.62\00:17:44.89
there to visit the Netherlands
and visited there in Haarlem,
the home of Corrie ten Boom,
00:17:44.89\00:17:50.80
Corrie ten Boom's family hiding
Jews during that time, and I
stood there in front
00:17:50.80\00:17:56.14
of the map that showed the
various concentration camps and
the individuals that died
00:17:56.14\00:18:01.94
at those concentration camps,
and I asked myself the question,
"How is it possible,
00:18:01.94\00:18:07.52
how is it possible, that this
many millions of people could
00:18:07.52\00:18:12.45
have died and no one was really
doing much about it for a period
of time?" Obviously the war
00:18:12.45\00:18:17.03
occurred, but before the war,
this was all happening and there
were not individuals
00:18:17.03\00:18:20.33
stepping in, and what I hear you
saying, Gerry, is for everyone,
00:18:20.33\00:18:25.17
Christian and non-Christian
alike, Jew, Muslim,
00:18:25.17\00:18:29.87
secular, atheist, agnostic,
moral relativist, whatever
00:18:29.87\00:18:35.24
category you may find yourself
in, the freedom of religion and
the freedom to choose
00:18:35.24\00:18:39.45
is essential because as soon as
that's taken away, while it may
affect someone else
00:18:39.45\00:18:45.15
initially, eventually it will
affect me. Would I be stating
00:18:45.15\00:18:48.92
that too much? >> You think
you've hit it right on the head.
00:18:48.92\00:18:52.29
>> Okay. Kevin, I want
to come to this Trinitycase.
00:18:52.29\00:18:56.30
Let's talk about the 
Trincase. What's happening
00:18:56.30\00:18:58.33
in theTrinitycase? Maybe give
us a little bit of background
00:18:58.33\00:19:01.97
foundations on thisTrinitycase.
>> Sure, and I want to be a bit
00:19:01.97\00:19:05.51
careful. The matter is before
the courts right now. I'm
counsel for Trinity Western,
00:19:05.51\00:19:08.74
and I want to be clear I'm
not here speaking for Trinity,
00:19:08.74\00:19:12.55
and let's just talk in
generalities about the case. >>
00:19:12.55\00:19:16.02
Yes. >> So Trinity Western
is an evangelical Christian
00:19:16.02\00:19:19.25
university, wishes to open a law
school. In order to do that, it
needed a couple levels of
00:19:19.25\00:19:25.69
approval. It needed ministerial
approval from the BC government
for the degree that was granted.
00:19:25.69\00:19:30.37
It needed recognition of
its graduates so that when they
00:19:30.37\00:19:33.30
graduate from law school they
can actually practice law. It's
a great degree to have,
00:19:33.30\00:19:37.17
but if you can't practice law
out of it, it's less useful. >>
00:19:37.17\00:19:41.11
Yes. >> And so they went to an
organization called the
Federation of Law Societies,
00:19:41.11\00:19:44.71
which looked at the program and
said, "We think that graduates
00:19:44.71\00:19:48.45
should be recognized as
lawyers." Then a number of law
societies for different reasons
00:19:48.45\00:19:52.75
across the country looked at it,
and three law societies said,
"We're not going to recognize
00:19:52.75\00:19:57.63
the graduates," Nova Scotia,
Ontario and British Columbia,
British Columbia after
00:19:57.63\00:20:01.86
a bit of a tortured process
that I won't get into. In Nova
00:20:01.86\00:20:06.53
Scotia... So, Trinity Western
sought judicial review of all
00:20:06.53\00:20:10.74
three decisions. In Nova Scotia,
it went to the Court of Appeal.
Trinity Western was successful.
00:20:10.74\00:20:14.21
In British Columbia, it's gone
through the Court of Appeal, and
now before the Supreme Court
00:20:14.21\00:20:18.31
of Canada, Trinity Western was
successful. In Ontario, Trinity
00:20:18.31\00:20:22.88
Western was unsuccessful, so
we've had these competing
decisions, and so the Ontario
00:20:22.88\00:20:27.16
court decision and the BC
court decision are now before
00:20:27.16\00:20:30.96
the Supreme Court of Canada and
awaiting a decision. The concern
00:20:30.96\00:20:38.20
that the law societies had is
with a code of conduct within
the Trinity Western community,
00:20:38.20\00:20:42.67
all based on biblical ideals for
a Christian life, including
rules and restrictions
00:20:42.67\00:20:51.51
around sexual behavior and
the traditional definition of
00:20:51.51\00:20:57.19
marriage. A couple of the law
societies said, "We view that to
be discriminatory."
00:20:57.19\00:21:00.59
In the last show I talked a bit
about how this equality right is
starting to be imposed within
00:21:00.59\00:21:07.30
private communities. This is an
example of that, where the law
00:21:07.30\00:21:11.50
society said, "We don't think
your community treats members of
00:21:11.50\00:21:15.94
the LGBT community equally," and
so they said, "We're not going
to recognize your graduates
00:21:15.94\00:21:19.47
as a result of that." Nobody
questions the ability of these
people to practice law,
00:21:19.47\00:21:24.11
that they'll be adequately
educated and professional in the
practice, but they say
00:21:24.11\00:21:27.72
because of what they view to be
discriminatory, this
exclusionary effect
00:21:27.72\00:21:33.05
that a religious code of conduct
has, that not everybody is
00:21:33.05\00:21:36.29
comfortable within that
community. These law societies
have said, "We're not going to
00:21:36.29\00:21:39.83
recognize your graduates,"
and so that's the matter that's
00:21:39.83\00:21:42.80
before the courts. >> So, Gerry,
what do we do with this? I mean,
00:21:42.80\00:21:46.27
we've got the... And I know
you're not a judge in this case,
but what do we do with this?
00:21:46.27\00:21:51.71
How should we react? And maybe
speak of it... and I've very
00:21:51.71\00:21:56.61
much appreciated... Speak of it
in a general sense. So obviously
00:21:56.61\00:22:00.72
for the Christian, the Christian
says, "Oh, you know, I want to
defend the right of Christianity
00:22:00.72\00:22:03.42
to live how we choose to live,"
so on and so forth, but what
happens if this case
00:22:03.42\00:22:08.96
is not found in favor of
Trinity Western for the general
00:22:08.96\00:22:13.19
population? What can we see and
expect to happen as, for lack of
00:22:13.19\00:22:17.93
a better word, the domino
effect? >> Well, I can do no
better than to quote the British
00:22:17.93\00:22:23.34
Columbia Court of Appeal itself.
Five judges in British Columbia
were unanimous in concluding
00:22:23.34\00:22:29.64
that if we do not protect
this small -- relatively small
00:22:29.64\00:22:36.52
compared to other universities,
this Christian university --
then what will happen is that
00:22:36.52\00:22:43.32
in an attempt to promote
tolerance and promote liberal
00:22:43.32\00:22:51.50
democratic values, we will be
illiberal and intolerant. In
other words, pluralism
00:22:51.50\00:22:56.77
really means to allow each
individual to choose their own
00:22:56.77\00:23:03.28
path, and if they're
different than you, that's to be
00:23:03.28\00:23:09.02
celebrated in the sense that
you know that they're going in a
00:23:09.02\00:23:13.12
direction that they believe in.
And you may disagree. You may in
00:23:13.12\00:23:18.99
a sense strongly disagree, and
you may argue, and you may
debate, but that's what a
00:23:18.99\00:23:23.16
democracy does. It argues
and debates ideas. It does not
00:23:23.16\00:23:28.47
silence or censor. And that's
really what's going on here is
there is an attempt
00:23:28.47\00:23:31.34
to silence, censor, and in face
extinguish any kind of Christian
00:23:31.34\00:23:37.15
contribution to the
legal debate by simply saying,
00:23:37.15\00:23:41.38
"You may not exist." And the
outcome of that, according to
00:23:41.38\00:23:46.25
the five judges of the Court of
Appeal in British Columbia, is
that our society will be
00:23:46.25\00:23:51.03
illiberal and our society will
be intolerant. So that's the
00:23:51.03\00:23:56.30
outcome that we will have if
we do not stand up for Trinity
00:23:56.30\00:24:02.07
Western University in this case.
>> That's powerful, Gerry. Mark,
the Seventh-Day Adventist
00:24:02.07\00:24:06.74
Church in Canada, a fairly
significant religious body
00:24:06.74\00:24:12.41
within Canada. What has been the
church's reaction to the Trinity
00:24:12.41\00:24:17.52
Western case and how the church
views the case? >> Well, the
00:24:17.52\00:24:23.73
church is interested in the
sense that the people are
interested because this affects
00:24:23.73\00:24:29.10
people. The church in and of
itself needs to be transparent,
if you will, to the whole
00:24:29.10\00:24:34.60
process of the thing, but
as a friend of the individuals
00:24:34.60\00:24:38.81
who are probing the question
and have placed it before the
00:24:38.81\00:24:42.98
courts, the church seeks to make
sure that the right of
individuals to be students in
00:24:42.98\00:24:50.22
that context, the right of
professors to teach in that
context, are respected
00:24:50.22\00:24:55.36
and affirmed in the context of
Canadian citizenship today.
Because if we don't,
00:24:55.36\00:25:01.26
then we've got a problem just as
Gerry has explained. >> And
that's a powerful thing.
00:25:01.26\00:25:06.10
We're not just talking about
an issue of Christianity versus
00:25:06.10\00:25:09.97
everyone else. What we're
talking about, Gerry, if I hear
you, is in a general sense,
00:25:09.97\00:25:15.38
and, Kevin, I want to get your
thoughts on this, in a general
00:25:15.38\00:25:19.15
sense, when we don't protect the
rights of the minority, whether
00:25:19.15\00:25:24.09
we agree with those rights or
with those values or not, when
00:25:24.09\00:25:28.69
we don't protect those rights,
we have actually opened the door
that sometime our rights
00:25:28.69\00:25:33.93
may be infringed upon as well.
Maybe some general thoughts on
that, Kevin, when it comes
00:25:33.93\00:25:38.63
to not this specific case, but
in many of these cases, and
we're going to be discussing
00:25:38.63\00:25:43.64
some others, of the importance
of valuing someone else's
00:25:43.64\00:25:49.38
beliefs. >> Yeah, and that's
really what a lot of these cases
are about is recognizing
00:25:49.38\00:25:54.52
and valuing the right of people
to believe differently, to
00:25:54.52\00:25:58.35
establish their own communities.
The  Loycase that I think Gerry
00:25:58.35\00:26:02.99
referenced a few moments ago,
that case came out of a
mandatory curriculum
00:26:02.99\00:26:06.96
in the Quebec system, a
curriculum called the Ethics and
00:26:06.96\00:26:11.70
Religious Culture curriculum
that was mandated for both
public and private schools in
00:26:11.70\00:26:16.37
which schools were being taught
how to teach about religion.
There were two cases that went
00:26:16.37\00:26:21.54
to the Supreme Court of Canada
out of that curriculum. The
first case was parents
00:26:21.54\00:26:26.05
in the public system who said,
"We object to this. We object to
having our children
00:26:26.05\00:26:31.12
compelled to learn about
religion in a manner that
00:26:31.12\00:26:33.69
undermines the lessons that
we're teaching at home," and the
Supreme Court of Canada
00:26:33.69\00:26:36.02
said that, no, the
curriculum doesn't go that far,
00:26:36.02\00:26:39.76
and those parents were
unsuccessful. But then you saw
00:26:39.76\00:26:42.40
Loyola High School, a Catholic
high school in Quebec that said,
00:26:42.40\00:26:47.87
"Hold it. You're actually
requiring a Catholic school to
teach ethics and religion
00:26:47.87\00:26:54.61
from a neutral perspective, and
we're a Catholic school. We want
00:26:54.61\00:26:59.71
to teach religion from a
Catholic perspective," and the
minister in Quebec said, "No,"
00:26:59.71\00:27:04.05
said, "No, you must teach it
from a neutral perspective," and
so Loyola bravely took
00:27:04.05\00:27:08.49
the matter all the way to the
Supreme Court, and the Supreme
00:27:08.49\00:27:10.79
Court of Canada said, "Yes.
It is an infringement of your
00:27:10.79\00:27:14.10
religious freedom, to be
compelled in a Catholic
community, educational
00:27:14.10\00:27:17.93
community, to instruct children
on Catholicism from a neutral
and non-Catholic perspective.
00:27:17.93\00:27:23.67
Actually the judges split
on whether or not the Catholic
00:27:23.67\00:27:27.64
school Loyola could teach other
religions from a Catholic
perspective. The majority said,
00:27:27.64\00:27:33.15
"No. You can still teach those
from more of a neutral
perspective," but at least they
00:27:33.15\00:27:37.72
recognized the ability of Loyola
to teach Catholicism from a
Catholic perspective.
00:27:37.72\00:27:40.62
So, you know, again, it's an
example of setting up religious
00:27:40.62\00:27:44.13
communities, setting up
institutions in which we're all
at home. >> And that is
00:27:44.13\00:27:49.06
fundamental to everything we've
talked about, gentlemen. It's
00:27:49.06\00:27:51.50
hard to believe we're completely
out of time. But the basis of
freedom of religion,
00:27:51.50\00:27:55.67
freedom of choice, and
protecting the rights of all
00:27:55.67\00:27:59.24
people, no matter if they're
in the minority. Let's end today
00:27:59.24\00:28:03.88
with prayer. Heavenly Father, we
thank you that you have
established the human
00:28:03.88\00:28:07.92
right to freedom of choice. Let
all of us be people who advocate
00:28:07.92\00:28:14.36
for that as well. We pray in
Jesus' name. Amen. My dear
friends, the freedom
00:28:14.36\00:28:20.60
to choose is essential not
only in the Christian context,
00:28:20.60\00:28:24.23
but in a general society that
is operating in an orderly way.
00:28:24.23\00:28:29.14
Today I want to offer you a free
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00:28:29.14\00:28:34.24
and help it to develop your
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00:28:34.24\00:28:38.38
for today's offer. >>
To request today's offer,
00:28:38.38\00:28:41.92
just log on to
www.ItIsWrittenCanada.ca.
00:28:41.92\00:28:46.82
That's www.ItIsWrittenCanada.ca.
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00:28:46.82\00:28:52.43
toll-free at 1-888-CALLIIW.
That's 1-888-CALLIIW.
00:28:52.43\00:28:59.83
Dear friend, the very foundation
of the government of God
00:28:59.83\00:29:03.37
is the freedom to choose.
In order for love to truly be
00:29:03.37\00:29:06.71
love, it gives us
the ability to say,
00:29:06.71\00:29:08.61
"Yes," or to say,
"No." That's the kind of God
00:29:08.61\00:29:12.15
that the Bible presents.
Now, if you want to learn more
00:29:12.15\00:29:15.82
about God, I want to
invite you to go to our website,
00:29:15.82\00:29:18.29
ItIsWrittenCanada.ca.
You can follow us on Twitter.
00:29:18.29\00:29:22.49
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There you can learn about
00:29:22.49\00:29:25.59
different activities
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00:29:25.59\00:29:28.80
in which you can
further develop a relationship
00:29:28.80\00:29:31.73
with this God,
whose very foundation
00:29:31.73\00:29:34.74
is the freedom to choose.
Thank you so much for joining us
00:29:34.74\00:29:38.11
today. I invite you to join
us again next week. Until then,
00:29:38.11\00:29:41.14
remember it is written, "Man
shall not live by bread alone,
00:29:41.14\00:29:45.88
but by every word that proceeds
from the mouth of God." ¤¤
00:29:45.88\00:29:59.86
¤¤ ¤¤
00:29:59.86\00:30:19.08