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Series Code: IIWC
Program Code: IIWC201701A
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01:31 >> It has stood the test of time -- God's book, the Bible, 01:37 still relevant in today's complex world. 01:43 "It Is Written," sharing messages of hope around the 01:48 world. ♪♪ 01:56 ♪♪ >> What is the meaning of religious liberty, its role in a 02:06 free and democratic society, and concerns regarding trends in Canada? 02:10 Now, today I have with me quite a remarkable panel, who I'll be pleased to introduce 02:15 in just a moment. You know, Canada is considered to be a free and democratic 02:19 society, and we hope that it will remain such a society that recognizes all individuals as 02:25 created equal and that our children will inherit a society in which exists that spirit of 02:31 liberty. Now, some of the most fundamental questions for human 02:35 beings are "Who are we?" and "Why are we here?" and "What is our purpose?" 02:40 Now, these questions have existed throughout history and are just as pressing today as 02:46 they were in ages past. Now, as Christians, an important and fundamental value to the 02:53 Christian world view is the recognition of the divine right of independent thought, belief, 02:59 and expression. Now, Jesus Christ Himself recognized this, and He declared 03:05 the right of every individual to dissent even from His own very words and religion. 03:11 Jesus Himself said in John 12:47, "If any man hears my words and 03:17 believe not, I judge him not. For I come not to judge the world, but to save the world." 03:24 Today, to help us understand this subject in more depth, I have a wonderful panel of 03:29 experts. Gentlemen, welcome to "It Is Written Canada." 03:32 Now, just to my left is Kevin Boonstra. Kevin is a lawyer. 03:36 He works and is a partner with Kuhn LLP and practices there in Vancouver 03:41 and in the Fraser Valley. Kevin practices in both litigation and commercial, along 03:47 with charity matters, for a broad spectrum of businesses and nonprofit clients. 03:52 He has published articles in a variety of trade and academic and general media publications 03:58 in the area of constitutional and human rights law and religious freedom issues. 04:03 He's lectured on a broad array of topics across Canada and has given seminars for many groups, 04:08 including the Continuing Legal Education Society of British Columbia, and has 04:13 been a commentator in both print and television media. Kevin represents and guides 04:18 clients through legal and practical problems both inside and outside the courts. 04:23 He's acted as counsel on a number of high-profile cases and has appeared in all levels of 04:28 court in British Columbia and has represented clients to the Supreme Court of Canada 04:34 in constitutional cases. Kevin is married and has two children. 04:38 Kevin, I want to welcome you. Thank you so much for joining us today. 04:41 >> Well, thank you for having me here. It's a real pleasure, Chris. 04:43 >> Well, and just to your right is Mark Johnson. 04:46 Mark Johnson I have known the longest of all of our guests. 04:49 Mark Johnson is a pastor and currently serves as president of 04:53 the Seventh-day Adventist Church in Canada. He has a vast experience as a 04:59 pastor and administrator in Canada, the U.S., and in mission fields abroad. 05:05 He is appreciated for his openness and availability to church members and his ability 05:10 to listen. He has a strong vision for the future for the Seventh-day 05:13 Adventist Church in Canada. Pastor Johnson, we are so happy to have you here today as a part 05:19 of this panel. >> Delighted to be here, Chris. >> And then to your right, 05:23 we have Gerald Chipeur. Gerald also is a lawyer. Gerald has, over the years, 05:29 focused primarily on public policy. Private-sector and public-sector 05:34 clients have relied on him to navigate the rules that regulate the way business and government 05:40 achieve their objectives. Now, Gerry has argued cases before every level of court in 05:45 Canada, including 20 matters before the Supreme Court of Canada. 05:50 Most of those matters have focused on the Constitution and human rights. 05:54 He has written over 100 legal articles on topics such as administrative law, charitable 06:00 organizations, the Constitution, education, ethics, and government integrity, along with 06:07 First Nations, health care, and human rights. He serves on the board of 06:11 directors of a number of different charities that have a focus on health 06:15 and human services. Gerry, we welcome you to the program and so happy to have you 06:20 as a part of this panel. >> Thank you very much. It's great to be here. 06:23 >> So, gentlemen, we're going to have a discussion, and we are beginning this discussion on the 06:27 whole issue of human rights in the context of religious freedom. 06:33 And so I'm going to begin with you, Mark, and ask you this question -- can you share with 06:39 us some insights on what the Bible has to say about freedom of thought, freedom of religion? 06:46 >> Those are important questions really when you think about it, Chris, because as people of 06:52 faith, we view things from the frame of reference of Scripture, for instance. 07:00 And as a Christian believer, as a person who has a Christian faith basis, I go back in 07:06 Old Testament times, and I read what it says there when it says, "Choose you this day who you 07:13 will serve," Book of Joshua, 24th chapter. So religious freedom is about 07:18 choice. It's about not being coerced by other people's decisions but 07:23 making an active decision that you are going to live a life of faith based upon your 07:29 determination. In history, I think frequently we have had people who have 07:34 tried to make decisions for other individuals. The faith-based decision is an 07:39 individual decision, and that's what the Scripture affirms. >> And you know, Mark, if I can 07:45 follow that up because sometimes there is a very public view of religion and in particular 07:52 Christianity as being very narrow-minded and not open to this idea of freedom of thought, 07:58 freedom of religion. If we can probe that a little more deeply, are you saying that 08:03 the God of the Bible and in particular the God of the Old Testament allows for 08:07 this freedom of thought, freedom of expression, freedom of religion? 08:11 >> Sure, and I think that the issue, Chris, is that God wants people who actively choose to 08:18 put Him in their life. Because if he had another view, He could have determined that 08:24 we would not have that option. We would be reduced to a different level of reality. 08:30 But one of the things about being a human being in the Creation of God is that He gave 08:35 us the opportunity to choose. And with that comes the opportunity to say, "I'm going 08:39 to walk away from that." Obviously, that would not be God's first choice. 08:42 But if that's my first choice, God honors that. >> Kevin, do you have any 08:46 thoughts on this idea of freedom of religion? >> Yeah. I completely agree with 08:49 everything Mark is saying. I often say that the Garden of Eden is really the first 08:53 religious-liberty story that exists in the Bible. It was God saying, "I give you a 08:58 choice. You can choose to follow Me, or you can choose something 09:01 else." And it's always struck me that if God is prepared to give us as 09:05 humans that choice, we have to be prepared to give one another that choice as well. 09:10 >> You know, it's kind of interesting -- I often will ask the question when I'm speaking 09:15 to groups, "Is there anything that God cannot do?" And I tell them in advance 09:20 that's a trick question because the reality is there is something that God cannot do... 09:24 or rather, probably better put, He chooses not to do. And that choice is He chooses 09:30 not to force our will and give us that freedom of thought. I love that -- the Garden of 09:36 Eden, the very foundation of this earth, is actually the foundation of religious liberty. 09:42 Gerry, any thoughts on that? >> Well, these days, with the reputation that government has, 09:49 I think Jesus was right to remind us to keep Caesar and the church separate -- "Render unto 09:56 God the things that are God's and to Caesar the things that are Caesar's" -- 10:01 with the arguments these days that we have about the deep state and about red tape and 10:08 bureaucracies, very wise. And I think that it's something that we should remember -- that 10:14 is one of the cornerstones of freedom of religion, keeping government away from the 10:20 church and the church away from government. They just don't mix. 10:24 >> Well, and that's interesting. I've just recently had the opportunity to tour a good 10:28 portion of Europe, and we can see throughout history that when that happens -- when government 10:33 and religion mix -- that is always bad news, and it is especially bad news for the 10:38 minority who do not hold to the beliefs of the majority. So, gentlemen, we want to probe 10:43 this a little more deeply. We could spend a lot of time, and I'm going to resist the 10:49 temptation to have a grand theological discussion on the basis of the government of God 10:56 and its basis on this freedom. But we see clearly throughout the Scriptures that...you 11:04 quoted some words of Jesus, "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's." 11:08 You quoted words of the Old Testament. We actually see throughout the 11:12 Bible that there is this freedom of thought. God allows people to choose 11:18 whether they want to be a part of the government that He is setting up sometime in the 11:22 future, and that's a whole different subject, or whether they choose to go whatever path 11:28 they want to go. And so, Kevin, I want to direct a question towards you, and 11:33 Gerry was alluding to it, but what is the role that religious freedom, religious liberty, 11:39 plays in the foundation of a free and democratic society? >> Before I get there, I really 11:45 want to comment on what you just talked about with a path because in Matthew 7, we see Jesus 11:51 talking about "Narrow is the path that leads to salvation." And immediately what follows 11:55 from that is talking about false prophets. So I've always read that 11:58 Scripture as well as being a question of choice -- Jesus saying, "Look, you can choose 12:03 this path, but again you're not mandated to do that." If the imperative of the 12:07 Scriptures is love, there is no love without granting choice, it seems to me. 12:12 And so if that's what we're called to do is to love one another, part of that love must 12:18 be granting each other the right to choose the truth or choose error. 12:24 Without that, there can be, in my view, no Christian love. And getting back to your 12:29 question... >> Yes. >> ...I think that's the same as 12:31 we would view the foundations of a civil society, right, that there has to be -- both... 12:35 There has to be order. There clearly has to be order. But within that order, there has 12:39 to be a carved-out space for people to follow their conscience, to follow God the 12:43 best way that they know how -- or to choose to follow something else, whether it's atheism or 12:48 agnosticism or some other religion. Without that choice, the 12:53 government is no longer carving out a space and treating everybody equally but rather 12:58 mandating -- mandating either secularism or even worse, mandating a belief that there is 13:05 no God or requiring that you conduct yourself as though you don't have fundamental 13:10 Christian or other religious beliefs. And when the government does 13:14 that, it actually removes that choice that we say is given to us in the Bible. 13:18 >> And I want to comment on your, you know, Matthew 7, and that is a beautiful analogy that 13:24 you've laid before us. Again, it's this whole idea of choice. 13:27 It reflects back on the comment that you made earlier, Pastor Johnson, and that is 13:32 "Choose you this day." Jesus lays out a choice. And so the very foundation... 13:36 And then you talked about order. God has an order, and that order, in the Judeo-Christian 13:41 tradition, is... That order that He sets forth is the Ten Commandments. 13:46 This is what a society looks like and keeps order and keeps things healthy. 13:50 However, He also gives the freedom to choose within the context of keeping... 13:56 And it would be the same way in society. There are laws of the land, 14:00 which keep order. But then there needs to be -- and I like that word -- this 14:04 carved-out piece that gives freedom of thought and expression and especially that 14:10 freedom of religion. Now, Gerry, you kind of brought us down this path of government 14:17 and religion mixing. Do you have any comments on this essential foundation for a free 14:23 society when we talk about religious liberty? >> Well, one of the principles 14:28 that I think we have in some countries of the world forgotten is that God doesn't need the 14:33 puny help of humans in protecting His name, and unfortunately, a number of 14:39 countries have decided that they would use this concept of blasphemy to defend God. 14:45 And unfortunately, a number of public officials and others in countries around the world are 14:51 facing not just the loss of a job, not just imprisonment, but even death because of a desire 14:59 on the part of some individual to defend God's name. He doesn't need our defense, and 15:06 any defense we can provide, in fact, is going to backfire in terms of society and create 15:12 less of a society, not a greater society. >> And when you talk about that 15:16 defense... I want to probe that just a little bit further. 15:18 When you talk about that defense, when we as individuals think, like, we need to defend 15:22 that, are you implying then that we need to be very cautious about the implementation or the 15:28 legislation of morality as it relates to a particular religion? 15:32 Is that what you're getting at with what you're making comments on? 15:36 >> Well, absolutely. Coercion is always the opposite of God's love. 15:41 God's love is the opposite of coercion, as we have discussed so far, and blasphemy laws 15:48 around the world today are being used as an attempt to coerce individuals to both say 15:54 and to believe a certain set of beliefs against whatever they might in fact choose to believe, 16:02 and I think that's where society starts down a road that just simply doesn't make any sense. 16:08 >> And I've asked this question, and maybe we can dwell on this. And, Pastor Johnson, I want to 16:13 get your thoughts. I don't want to get too far from here, but I want to ask a 16:16 question that I've often asked when people start talking to me about the passing of laws, the 16:21 legislation of morality. I ask the fundamental question, whose morality will we 16:27 implement? Will we pass laws that implement the morality of 16:32 Seventh-day Adventists? Will we pass laws that implement the morality of 16:36 the Roman Catholic Church, of the Anglican Church, maybe the United Church, maybe Hinduism, 16:41 maybe Islam, maybe Buddhism? We must ask that question. So what you're getting at... 16:47 Because if we implement any of those, what is the logical conclusion, Kevin, if we 16:52 implement laws of a particular belief system? What happens? 16:55 >> And this is one of the main struggles that we see when it comes to this carving out of a 17:01 space that I've talked about because there does have to be order. 17:06 And there does have to be some common sense within a society of what's moral and not moral. 17:10 We have a criminal code. Large parts of the criminal code are based in common 17:15 consensus on what's moral behavior and what's not moral behavior. 17:19 And when society no longer shares the view about moral and immoral behavior, we see a 17:26 breakdown. People no longer will obey the criminal code, and we've seen 17:31 that in our society with certain criminal laws over the past, where the vast majority of the 17:35 society no longer believes that certain behavior should be immoral. 17:38 So where do you get... Where do morals come from in a secular society? 17:43 And that is a major struggle because religious people -- Christians and others -- 17:48 ground their views of morality within their religious beliefs, and they're absolutely entitled 17:52 to do that, but in a broader, more secular society, which honors and respects all 17:57 religious groups, there does have to be some commonality, some consensus around which 18:00 morals we're going to legislate around and which we aren't. But when we do that, when we as 18:05 a society start legislating around ideas of morality, we have to be very cautious and 18:11 very sensitive not to be coercing people against their conscience, as Gerry was talking 18:15 about. >> Pastor Johnson, what do you have in the way of thoughts on 18:21 this foundation of a society, on religious liberty, freedom of thought, and in the general 18:27 conversation we've continued to have here? >> Well, it seems to me that 18:33 first and foremost, if faith-based life is a choice, we have to give people the 18:40 opportunity to make that choice even if they make a choice that does not agree with the majority 18:46 of individuals who are out there. And that becomes a very lonely 18:50 discussion for a lot of individuals. If everybody on your block has a 18:56 faith basis and you choose to be the odd person out, obviously, you have to have a fairly strong 19:02 level of conviction in order to sustain that for any period of time. 19:07 And I admire people who have those kinds of convictions because I think that it is very 19:12 easy in the world in which we live simply to mirror the average faith basis or the 19:19 average concept of what life is all about and what is good and what is not so good that is 19:25 mirrored by the person on the street. The challenge with that is that 19:30 does not imply much mental processing on the part of the individual. 19:35 And if we are going to understand why we are who we are, why we make the choices 19:43 that we make, those usually come about as a little higher level of brain activity than just 19:50 simply accepting what my friend says. >> Yes. 19:52 And that brings us to a more direct question, and I'm going to begin with you, Mark. 20:00 In Canada, we are in a society where there is religious liberty. 20:07 Just recently, south of the border, we've seen some things happening where the issue of 20:12 religious liberty has come to the forefront. But what about here in Canada? 20:16 Are we seeing any erosions of religious liberty or any dangers to the issue of freedom of 20:22 expression and freedom of religion? >> It's an excellent question, 20:26 and I think that as we look on recent events, we realize that we're living in a changing 20:32 society -- there's no question about that. And the things which we 20:37 particularly have practiced in the past as kind of a level playing field have changed. 20:45 Whether that has to do with how we give people the right basically to speak about matters 20:54 of ethics from a religious basis, whether that is in a university setting, whether 21:01 that happens to be in a high school setting, or whatever, I think that there 21:07 is pressure, frankly, upon people who hold religious beliefs to conform to a point of 21:15 view which comes from a community which is not as guided, perhaps, by their 21:21 perspective as are others. And those are issues that are more frequently coming before 21:27 the courts to be able to make a determination on where we as a nation stand, and that's an 21:33 interesting time to be involved in a faith-based life. >> Yes. 21:36 And you used the word courts, and so we have two lawyers with us. 21:40 Gentlemen, are we seeing anything in the courts right now that -- and I'll begin with you, 21:44 Gerry, that we are seeing this danger or this -- and maybe danger is even too 21:50 strong of a word, but we're seeing some of the erosions of religious liberty here in 21:55 Canada? >> Well, the one theme that has come out in a few cases, and 22:01 it's unfortunate, is the idea that the majority should be deciding whether the minority 22:09 has a particular right, and that's been coming out in the university settings. 22:14 Both in public and private universities, there's a debate going on about whether or not 22:20 certain beliefs and belief structures should be accepted within society. 22:28 And the general trend amongst some of the lower courts has been to accept the idea that 22:37 the majority can make that call and can limit the expression of the minority. 22:43 I find that disturbing, and it's going to lead to nothing but a limitation on our rights if we 22:53 don't step back from this debate and ask ourselves whether or not every kind of expression must be 23:02 protected so that we can have this marketplace of ideas that John Stuart Mill talked about 23:11 when he wrote over 100 years ago. So, I am concerned about our 23:15 universities right now. >> Kevin, we have just a little under five minutes left. 23:22 And so we're going to continue our discussion in the next show, but I want to... 23:27 Do we have any specific cases in which we are seeing some of these erosions take place that 23:32 can form a basis for us to have some discussion now and continue that discussion in our next 23:37 show? >> Yeah, there are some cases before the courts. 23:40 One that was in June of 2017 starting about physician conscience and whether, in 23:48 light of physician-assisted suicide, whether they have the right to dissent. 23:52 And a lot of what this comes from, I think, the tension that we're seeing in the law, has to 23:56 do with -- unlike the United States, which had a Bill of Rights based on 24:00 individual freedoms, we also have an equality right in our Charter. 24:03 And the equality right is intended to try and ensure that nobody is discriminated against 24:10 based on religion or race or sexual orientation or any of the other enumerated or analogous 24:15 grounds. The difficulty with the equality right is in its application, 24:21 where it's being pushed into the private sphere, being pushed into Christian and other 24:25 religious institutions, pushed into the home, pushed into individuals' professions 24:30 in a way that has a conforming effect, and that tension, in my mind, is one of the biggest ones 24:37 that we're facing in the law in Canada right now... is that the use of the equality 24:41 right to try and create conformity of thought and conformity of action even when 24:46 it is within a private sphere. And some of the cases that I think we're going to talk about 24:51 in some of the next sessions -- you see that tension coming up, and it all comes back to this 24:55 idea of carving out a space where we as religious people or different religions or 25:01 atheists can in fact have their private space within their homes and their institutions. 25:07 >> So, we talk about that carving out of space, and so in our last two minutes here, 25:11 Mark, I'm going to give you the opportunity to kind of close us off on this thought, this idea 25:16 of carving out a space for people to not have to conform to the majority, as 25:22 Gerry was talking about just a moment ago. Can you give us some thoughts 25:26 on the importance of carving out that space for people to not have to conform to the majority? 25:31 >> Well, because a faith life is a very personal experience, right, because it is not sort of 25:39 a monolithic thing that would be the same for every one of us around this table, the thing 25:46 that becomes so very important is to be able to give people the opportunity to determine 25:52 how they relate to what it means to live a life of faith. And that may mean that it is 26:00 involved in everything that they do, from going shopping -- when they go shopping, where 26:05 they go shopping, what they choose to purchase -- to a much more laid-back 26:10 approach to that kind of thing. And it is the right of the individual in the sight of God 26:17 to make that determination as to how that works. >> Well, I will tell you -- this 26:21 has been an exciting discussion. We have laid a foundation for our next shows, where we're 26:26 going to get into some details. We're going to help give people the opportunity to see that 26:31 there are cases happening now that many times don't make the front page of the news, and we 26:37 need to pay attention to them. We need to be praying. We need to be acting. 26:41 And we'll talk about what all that means for each of us as individuals. 26:45 And so, as we conclude our discussion here today, I'd like to have a word of prayer and ask 26:50 the Lord's blessing upon our discussion that we've just had. So, let's pray. 26:54 Heavenly Father, we're grateful for the fact that Your very foundation of Your government 27:01 is that of freedom, the freedom to choose. So, as we've discussed this 27:07 freedom to choose, I pray for every individual watching and listening, that they would sense 27:13 that we serve a God Who chooses to allow us to have choice. We pray this in Jesus' name. 27:21 Amen. Friends, isn't it a wonderful thing that the very government 27:28 of God is based on the freedom of choice? And that is what we discussed 27:32 today, this freedom of choice and that freedom of choice that God has created as a right for 27:38 every human being no matter where they live. We've also introduced the idea 27:43 that that freedom should be continued in all societies and in particular right here in 27:48 Canada. Today, I want to offer you the DVD of this program. 27:53 This program lays the foundation for several of the conversations we're going to 27:58 have. Here's the information you need to receive today's offer. 28:03 >> To request today's offer, just log on to 28:06 www.ItIsWrittenCanada.ca and select the TV Program tab. 28:16 For Canadian viewers, the offer will be sent free 28:20 and postage paid. For viewers outside of Canada, 28:23 shipping charges will apply. If you prefer, you may call 28:26 toll-free at 1-888-CALL-IIW. Or if you wish, you may write to 28:36 us at It Is Written... And thank you for your prayer 28:44 requests and your generous financial support. >> Friend, you know, in order 28:49 for love to truly be love, it must give you the opportunity to say yes or to say no. 28:54 That's the very foundation of God's government. Today we've talked about that 28:58 freedom of choice, the freedom of religion, and I'm so thankful for my three guests, Kevin, 29:02 Mark, and Gerry, for joining me today. Thank you, gentlemen, for 29:05 helping in this discussion. Friend, if you want more 29:10 resources to learn about this God of love Who gives the 29:13 freedom to choose, I want to encourage you to go to our 29:15 website... Or you can go 29:18 to our YouTube channel... There you can watch the 29:24 archives of this program. There you can learn about this 29:28 God of love, Who gives a freedom to choose. 29:30 Thank you so much for joining us. 29:32 I invite you to join us again next week. 29:34 Until then, remember, it is written, "Man shall not live by 29:39 bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of 29:43 God." ♪♪ 29:55 ♪♪ ♪♪ 30:14 ♪♪ |
Revised 2018-01-31