い
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>> It has stood the test of
time -- God's book, the Bible,
00:01:31.05\00:01:37.46
still relevant in
today's complex world.
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"It Is Written," sharing
messages of hope around the
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world. い
00:01:48.57\00:01:56.38
い >> What is the meaning of
religious liberty, its role in a
00:01:56.38\00:02:06.29
free and democratic society,
and concerns regarding trends in
00:02:06.29\00:02:10.83
Canada? Now, today I have with
me quite a remarkable panel, who
I'll be pleased to introduce
00:02:10.83\00:02:15.13
in just a moment. You know,
Canada is considered to be a
free and democratic
00:02:15.13\00:02:19.67
society, and we hope that it
will remain such a society that
recognizes all individuals as
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created equal and that our
children will inherit a society
in which exists that spirit of
00:02:25.51\00:02:31.91
liberty. Now, some of the most
fundamental questions for human
00:02:31.91\00:02:35.85
beings are "Who are we?" and
"Why are we here?" and "What is
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our purpose?" Now, these
questions have existed
throughout history and are just
00:02:40.19\00:02:46.43
as pressing today as they were
in ages past. Now, as
Christians, an important and
00:02:46.43\00:02:53.17
fundamental value to the
Christian world view is the
recognition of the divine right
00:02:53.17\00:02:59.87
of independent thought, belief,
and expression. Now, Jesus
Christ Himself recognized this,
00:02:59.87\00:03:05.95
and He declared the right of
every individual to dissent even
from His own very words and
00:03:05.95\00:03:11.72
religion. Jesus Himself said in
John 12:47, "If any man hears my
00:03:11.72\00:03:17.63
words and believe not, I judge
him not. For I come not to judge
the world, but to save the
00:03:17.63\00:03:24.17
world." Today, to help us
understand this subject in more
depth, I have a wonderful panel
00:03:24.17\00:03:29.04
of experts. Gentlemen, welcome
to "It Is Written Canada."
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Now, just to my left is Kevin
Boonstra. Kevin is a lawyer.
00:03:32.44\00:03:36.24
He works and is a partner with
Kuhn LLP and practices there in
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Vancouver and in the Fraser
Valley. Kevin practices in both
litigation and commercial, along
00:03:41.45\00:03:47.12
with charity matters, for a
broad spectrum of businesses and
00:03:47.12\00:03:52.49
nonprofit clients. He has
published articles in a variety
of trade and academic and
00:03:52.49\00:03:58.03
general media publications in
the area of constitutional and
human rights law and religious
00:03:58.03\00:04:03.41
freedom issues. He's lectured on
a broad array of topics across
Canada and has given seminars
00:04:03.41\00:04:08.64
for many groups, including the
Continuing Legal Education
Society of British Columbia, and
00:04:08.64\00:04:13.08
has been a commentator in both
print and television media.
Kevin represents and guides
00:04:13.08\00:04:18.59
clients through legal and
practical problems both inside
and outside the courts.
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He's acted as counsel on a
number of high-profile cases and
has appeared in all levels of
00:04:23.69\00:04:28.90
court in British Columbia and
has represented clients to the
Supreme Court of Canada
00:04:28.90\00:04:34.40
in constitutional cases. Kevin
is married and has two children.
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Kevin, I want to welcome you.
Thank you so much for joining us
00:04:38.24\00:04:41.78
today. >> Well, thank you
for having me here. It's a real
00:04:41.78\00:04:43.91
pleasure, Chris. >> Well,
and just to your right is Mark
00:04:43.91\00:04:46.61
Johnson. Mark Johnson I have
known the longest of all of our
00:04:46.61\00:04:49.72
guests. Mark Johnson is a
pastor and currently serves as
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president of the Seventh-day
Adventist Church in Canada. He
has a vast experience as a
00:04:53.89\00:04:59.26
pastor and administrator in
Canada, the U.S., and in mission
00:04:59.26\00:05:05.57
fields abroad. He is appreciated
for his openness and
availability to church members
00:05:05.57\00:05:10.11
and his ability to listen. He
has a strong vision for the
future for the Seventh-day
00:05:10.11\00:05:13.94
Adventist Church in Canada.
Pastor Johnson, we are so happy
to have you here today as a part
00:05:13.94\00:05:19.18
of this panel. >> Delighted to
be here, Chris. >> And then to
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your right, we have Gerald
Chipeur. Gerald also is a
lawyer. Gerald has, over the
00:05:23.12\00:05:29.09
years, focused primarily on
public policy. Private-sector
00:05:29.09\00:05:34.30
and public-sector clients have
relied on him to navigate the
rules that regulate the way
00:05:34.30\00:05:40.17
business and government achieve
their objectives. Now, Gerry has
argued cases before every level
00:05:40.17\00:05:45.94
of court in Canada, including 20
matters before the Supreme Court
00:05:45.94\00:05:50.21
of Canada. Most of those matters
have focused on the Constitution
00:05:50.21\00:05:54.72
and human rights. He has written
over 100 legal articles on
topics such as administrative
00:05:54.72\00:06:00.92
law, charitable organizations,
the Constitution, education,
ethics, and government
00:06:00.92\00:06:07.13
integrity, along with First
Nations, health care, and human
rights. He serves on the board
00:06:07.13\00:06:11.63
of directors of a number of
different charities that have a
00:06:11.63\00:06:15.54
focus on health and human
services. Gerry, we welcome you
to the program and so happy to
00:06:15.54\00:06:20.48
have you as a part of this
panel. >> Thank you very much.
It's great to be here.
00:06:20.48\00:06:23.51
>> So, gentlemen, we're going to
have a discussion, and we are
beginning this discussion on the
00:06:23.51\00:06:27.62
whole issue of human rights
in the context of religious
00:06:27.62\00:06:33.96
freedom. And so I'm going to
begin with you, Mark, and ask
you this question -- can you
00:06:33.96\00:06:39.16
share with us some insights on
what the Bible has to say about
freedom of thought, freedom of
00:06:39.16\00:06:46.03
religion? >> Those are important
questions really when you think
about it, Chris, because as
00:06:46.03\00:06:52.77
people of faith, we view things
from the frame of reference of
Scripture, for instance.
00:06:52.77\00:07:00.05
And as a Christian believer, as
a person who has a Christian
faith basis, I go back in
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Old Testament times, and I read
what it says there when it says,
"Choose you this day who you
00:07:06.52\00:07:13.50
will serve," Book of Joshua,
24th chapter. So religious
00:07:13.50\00:07:18.77
freedom is about choice. It's
about not being coerced by other
people's decisions but
00:07:18.77\00:07:23.57
making an active decision that
you are going to live a life of
faith based upon your
00:07:23.57\00:07:29.28
determination. In history,
I think frequently we have had
00:07:29.28\00:07:34.52
people who have tried to make
decisions for other individuals.
The faith-based decision is an
00:07:34.52\00:07:39.99
individual decision, and that's
what the Scripture affirms. >>
And you know, Mark, if I can
00:07:39.99\00:07:45.83
follow that up because sometimes
there is a very public view of
religion and in particular
00:07:45.83\00:07:52.37
Christianity as being very
narrow-minded and not open to
this idea of freedom of thought,
00:07:52.37\00:07:58.81
freedom of religion. If we can
probe that a little more deeply,
are you saying that
00:07:58.81\00:08:03.51
the God of the Bible and in
particular the God of the Old
Testament allows for
00:08:03.51\00:08:07.95
this freedom of thought, freedom
of expression, freedom of
00:08:07.95\00:08:11.72
religion? >> Sure, and I think
that the issue, Chris, is that
God wants people who actively
00:08:11.72\00:08:18.09
choose to put Him in their life.
Because if he had another view,
He could have determined that
00:08:18.09\00:08:24.33
we would not have that option.
We would be reduced to a
different level of reality.
00:08:24.33\00:08:30.31
But one of the things about
being a human being in the
Creation of God is that He gave
00:08:30.31\00:08:35.01
us the opportunity to choose.
And with that comes the
opportunity to say, "I'm going
00:08:35.01\00:08:39.25
to walk away from that."
Obviously, that would not be
God's first choice.
00:08:39.25\00:08:42.88
But if that's my first choice,
God honors that. >> Kevin, do
00:08:42.88\00:08:46.52
you have any thoughts on this
idea of freedom of religion? >>
Yeah. I completely agree with
00:08:46.52\00:08:49.59
everything Mark is saying. I
often say that the Garden of
Eden is really the first
00:08:49.59\00:08:53.46
religious-liberty story that
exists in the Bible. It was God
saying, "I give you a
00:08:53.46\00:08:58.10
choice. You can choose to follow
Me, or you can choose something
00:08:58.10\00:09:01.60
else." And it's always struck me
that if God is prepared to give
00:09:01.60\00:09:05.74
us as humans that choice, we
have to be prepared to give one
another that choice as well.
00:09:05.74\00:09:10.58
>> You know, it's kind of
interesting -- I often will ask
the question when I'm speaking
00:09:10.58\00:09:15.48
to groups, "Is there anything
that God cannot do?" And I tell
00:09:15.48\00:09:20.19
them in advance that's a trick
question because the reality is
there is something that God
00:09:20.19\00:09:24.83
cannot do... or rather, probably
better put, He chooses not to
do. And that choice is He
00:09:24.83\00:09:30.07
chooses not to force our will
and give us that freedom of
thought. I love that -- the
00:09:30.07\00:09:36.00
Garden of Eden, the very
foundation of this earth, is
actually the foundation of
00:09:36.00\00:09:42.48
religious liberty. Gerry, any
thoughts on that? >> Well, these
days, with the reputation that
00:09:42.48\00:09:49.62
government has, I think Jesus
was right to remind us to keep
Caesar and the church separate
00:09:49.62\00:09:56.26
-- "Render unto God the things
that are God's and to Caesar the
things that are Caesar's" --
00:09:56.26\00:10:01.10
with the arguments these days
that we have about the deep
state and about red tape and
00:10:01.10\00:10:08.10
bureaucracies, very wise. And I
think that it's something that
we should remember -- that
00:10:08.10\00:10:14.71
is one of the cornerstones of
freedom of religion, keeping
government away from the
00:10:14.71\00:10:20.35
church and the church away from
government. They just don't mix.
00:10:20.35\00:10:24.52
>> Well, and that's interesting.
I've just recently had the
opportunity to tour a good
00:10:24.52\00:10:28.86
portion of Europe, and we can
see throughout history that when
that happens -- when government
00:10:28.86\00:10:33.80
and religion mix -- that is
always bad news, and it is
especially bad news for the
00:10:33.80\00:10:38.20
minority who do not hold to the
beliefs of the majority. So,
gentlemen, we want to probe
00:10:38.20\00:10:43.14
this a little more deeply. We
could spend a lot of time, and
I'm going to resist the
00:10:43.14\00:10:49.54
temptation to have a grand
theological discussion on the
basis of the government of God
00:10:49.54\00:10:56.62
and its basis on this freedom.
But we see clearly throughout
the Scriptures that...you
00:10:56.62\00:11:04.13
quoted some words of Jesus,
"Render unto Caesar what is
00:11:04.13\00:11:08.13
Caesar's." You quoted words of
the Old Testament. We actually
00:11:08.13\00:11:12.20
see throughout the Bible that
there is this freedom of
thought. God allows people to
00:11:12.20\00:11:18.31
choose whether they want to be a
part of the government that He
is setting up sometime in the
00:11:18.31\00:11:22.61
future, and that's a whole
different subject, or whether
they choose to go whatever path
00:11:22.61\00:11:28.12
they want to go. And so, Kevin,
I want to direct a question
00:11:28.12\00:11:33.25
towards you, and Gerry was
alluding to it, but what is the
role that religious freedom,
00:11:33.25\00:11:39.13
religious liberty, plays in the
foundation of a free and
democratic society? >> Before I
00:11:39.13\00:11:45.67
get there, I really want to
comment on what you just talked
about with a path because in
00:11:45.67\00:11:51.44
Matthew 7, we see Jesus talking
about "Narrow is the path that
leads to salvation." And
00:11:51.44\00:11:55.81
immediately what follows from
that is talking about false
prophets. So I've always read
00:11:55.81\00:11:58.91
that Scripture as well as being
a question of choice -- Jesus
saying, "Look, you can choose
00:11:58.91\00:12:03.02
this path, but again you're
not mandated to do that." If the
00:12:03.02\00:12:07.49
imperative of the Scriptures is
love, there is no love without
granting choice, it seems to me.
00:12:07.49\00:12:12.96
And so if that's what we're
called to do is to love one
another, part of that love must
00:12:12.96\00:12:18.60
be granting each other the right
to choose the truth or choose
00:12:18.60\00:12:24.27
error. Without that, there can
be, in my view, no Christian
love. And getting back to your
00:12:24.27\00:12:29.11
question... >> Yes. >>
...I think that's the same as
00:12:29.11\00:12:31.75
we would view the foundations of
a civil society, right, that
there has to be -- both...
00:12:31.75\00:12:35.75
There has to be order. There
clearly has to be order. But
within that order, there has
00:12:35.75\00:12:39.89
to be a carved-out space for
people to follow their
conscience, to follow God the
00:12:39.89\00:12:43.43
best way that they know how --
or to choose to follow something
else, whether it's atheism or
00:12:43.43\00:12:48.73
agnosticism or some other
religion. Without that choice,
00:12:48.73\00:12:53.70
the government is no longer
carving out a space and treating
everybody equally but rather
00:12:53.70\00:12:58.57
mandating -- mandating either
secularism or even worse,
mandating a belief that there is
00:12:58.57\00:13:05.38
no God or requiring that you
conduct yourself as though you
don't have fundamental
00:13:05.38\00:13:10.92
Christian or other religious
beliefs. And when the government
00:13:10.92\00:13:14.49
does that, it actually removes
that choice that we say is given
to us in the Bible.
00:13:14.49\00:13:18.49
>> And I want to comment on
your, you know, Matthew 7, and
that is a beautiful analogy that
00:13:18.49\00:13:24.20
you've laid before us. Again,
it's this whole idea of choice.
00:13:24.20\00:13:27.60
It reflects back on the comment
that you made earlier, Pastor
Johnson, and that is
00:13:27.60\00:13:32.21
"Choose you this day." Jesus
lays out a choice. And so the
00:13:32.21\00:13:36.98
very foundation... And then you
talked about order. God has an
order, and that order, in the
00:13:36.98\00:13:41.98
Judeo-Christian tradition, is...
That order that He sets forth is
the Ten Commandments.
00:13:41.98\00:13:46.05
This is what a society looks
like and keeps order and keeps
00:13:46.05\00:13:50.66
things healthy. However, He also
gives the freedom to choose
within the context of keeping...
00:13:50.66\00:13:56.73
And it would be the same way in
society. There are laws of the
00:13:56.73\00:14:00.94
land, which keep order. But then
there needs to be -- and I like
00:14:00.94\00:14:04.94
that word -- this carved-out
piece that gives freedom of
thought and expression and
00:14:04.94\00:14:10.05
especially that freedom of
religion. Now, Gerry, you kind
of brought us down this path of
00:14:10.05\00:14:17.39
government and religion mixing.
Do you have any comments on this
essential foundation for a free
00:14:17.39\00:14:23.06
society when we talk about
religious liberty? >> Well, one
00:14:23.06\00:14:28.00
of the principles that I think
we have in some countries of the
world forgotten is that God
00:14:28.00\00:14:33.90
doesn't need the puny help of
humans in protecting His name,
and unfortunately, a number of
00:14:33.90\00:14:39.57
countries have decided that they
would use this concept of
blasphemy to defend God.
00:14:39.57\00:14:45.21
And unfortunately, a number of
public officials and others in
countries around the world are
00:14:45.21\00:14:51.92
facing not just the loss of a
job, not just imprisonment, but
even death because of a desire
00:14:51.92\00:14:59.46
on the part of some individual
to defend God's name. He doesn't
need our defense, and
00:14:59.46\00:15:06.00
any defense we can provide, in
fact, is going to backfire in
terms of society and create
00:15:06.00\00:15:12.24
less of a society, not a greater
society. >> And when you talk
00:15:12.24\00:15:16.54
about that defense... I want
to probe that just a little bit
00:15:16.54\00:15:18.68
further. When you talk about
that defense, when we as
individuals think, like, we need
00:15:18.68\00:15:22.52
to defend that, are you implying
then that we need to be very
00:15:22.52\00:15:28.42
implementation or the cautious
about the legislation of
morality as it relates to a
00:15:28.42\00:15:32.53
particular religion? Is that
what you're getting at with what
you're making comments on?
00:15:32.53\00:15:36.00
>> Well, absolutely. Coercion
is always the opposite of God's
00:15:36.00\00:15:41.24
love. God's love is the opposite
of coercion, as we have
discussed so far, and blasphemy
00:15:41.24\00:15:48.14
laws around the world today are
being used as an attempt to
coerce individuals to both say
00:15:48.14\00:15:54.75
and to believe a certain set of
beliefs against whatever they
might in fact choose to believe,
00:15:54.75\00:16:02.16
and I think that's where society
starts down a road that just
simply doesn't make any sense.
00:16:02.16\00:16:08.96
>> And I've asked this question,
and maybe we can dwell on this.
And, Pastor Johnson, I want to
00:16:08.96\00:16:13.44
get your thoughts. I don't want
to get too far from here, but I
00:16:13.44\00:16:16.30
want to ask a question that I've
often asked when people start
talking to me about the passing
00:16:16.30\00:16:21.54
of laws, the legislation of
morality. I ask the fundamental
question, whose morality will we
00:16:21.54\00:16:27.88
implement? Will we pass laws
that implement the morality of
00:16:27.88\00:16:32.35
Seventh-day Adventists? Will
we pass laws that implement the
00:16:32.35\00:16:36.62
morality of the Roman Catholic
Church, of the Anglican Church,
maybe the United Church, maybe
00:16:36.62\00:16:41.76
Hinduism, maybe Islam, maybe
Buddhism? We must ask that
question. So what you're getting
00:16:41.76\00:16:47.27
at... Because if we implement
any of those, what is the
logical conclusion, Kevin, if we
00:16:47.27\00:16:52.21
implement laws of a particular
belief system? What happens?
00:16:52.21\00:16:55.88
>> And this is one of the main
struggles that we see when it
comes to this carving out of a
00:16:55.88\00:17:01.68
space that I've talked about
because there does have to be
00:17:01.68\00:17:06.12
order. And there does have to be
some common sense within a
society of what's moral and not
00:17:06.12\00:17:10.73
moral. We have a criminal code.
Large parts of the criminal code
are based in common
00:17:10.73\00:17:15.80
consensus on what's moral
behavior and what's not moral
00:17:15.80\00:17:19.47
behavior. And when society no
longer shares the view about
moral and immoral behavior, we
00:17:19.47\00:17:26.31
see a breakdown. People no
longer will obey the criminal
code, and we've seen
00:17:26.31\00:17:31.05
that in our society with certain
criminal laws over the past,
where the vast majority of the
00:17:31.05\00:17:35.12
society no longer believes
that certain behavior should be
00:17:35.12\00:17:38.25
immoral. So where do you get...
Where do morals come from in a
00:17:38.25\00:17:43.56
secular society? And that is a
major struggle because religious
people -- Christians and others
00:17:43.56\00:17:48.10
-- ground their views of
morality within their religious
beliefs, and they're absolutely
00:17:48.10\00:17:52.87
entitled to do that, but in a
broader, more secular society,
which honors and respects all
00:17:52.87\00:17:57.07
religious groups, there does
have to be some commonality,
some consensus around which
00:17:57.07\00:18:00.91
morals we're going to legislate
around and which we aren't. But
when we do that, when we as
00:18:00.91\00:18:05.78
a society start legislating
around ideas of morality, we
have to be very cautious and
00:18:05.78\00:18:11.05
very sensitive not to be
coercing people against their
conscience, as Gerry was talking
00:18:11.05\00:18:15.86
about. >> Pastor Johnson,
what do you have in the way of
00:18:15.86\00:18:21.00
thoughts on this foundation of a
society, on religious liberty,
freedom of thought, and in the
00:18:21.00\00:18:27.17
general conversation we've
continued to have here? >> Well,
it seems to me that
00:18:27.17\00:18:33.04
first and foremost, if
faith-based life is a choice, we
have to give people the
00:18:33.04\00:18:40.42
opportunity to make that choice
even if they make a choice that
does not agree with the majority
00:18:40.42\00:18:46.32
of individuals who are out
there. And that becomes a very
00:18:46.32\00:18:50.13
lonely discussion for a lot
of individuals. If everybody on
00:18:50.13\00:18:56.20
your block has a faith basis and
you choose to be the odd person
out, obviously, you have to have
00:18:56.20\00:19:02.67
a fairly strong level of
conviction in order to sustain
that for any period of time.
00:19:02.67\00:19:07.04
And I admire people who have
those kinds of convictions
because I think that it is very
00:19:07.04\00:19:12.58
easy in the world in which we
live simply to mirror the
average faith basis or the
00:19:12.58\00:19:19.09
average concept of what life is
all about and what is good and
what is not so good that is
00:19:19.09\00:19:25.86
mirrored by the person on the
street. The challenge with that
00:19:25.86\00:19:30.27
is that does not imply much
mental processing on the part of
00:19:30.27\00:19:35.60
the individual. And if we are
going to understand why we are
who we are, why we make the
00:19:35.60\00:19:43.11
choices that we make, those
usually come about as a little
higher level of brain activity
00:19:43.11\00:19:50.12
than just simply accepting
what my friend says. >> Yes.
00:19:50.12\00:19:52.82
And that brings us to a more
direct question, and I'm going
to begin with you, Mark.
00:19:52.82\00:20:00.43
In Canada, we are in a
society where there is religious
00:20:00.43\00:20:07.00
liberty. Just recently, south of
the border, we've seen some
things happening where the issue
00:20:07.00\00:20:12.04
of religious liberty has come
to the forefront. But what about
00:20:12.04\00:20:16.38
here in Canada? Are we seeing
any erosions of religious
liberty or any dangers to the
00:20:16.38\00:20:22.52
issue of freedom of expression
and freedom of religion? >> It's
an excellent question,
00:20:22.52\00:20:26.89
and I think that as we look on
recent events, we realize that
we're living in a changing
00:20:26.89\00:20:32.56
society -- there's no question
about that. And the things which
00:20:32.56\00:20:37.30
we particularly have practiced
in the past as kind of a level
playing field have changed.
00:20:37.30\00:20:45.21
Whether that has to do with how
we give people the right
basically to speak about matters
00:20:45.21\00:20:54.92
of ethics from a religious
basis, whether that is in a
university setting, whether
00:20:54.92\00:21:01.02
that happens to be in a high
school setting, or whatever, I
00:21:01.02\00:21:07.40
think that there is pressure,
frankly, upon people who hold
religious beliefs to conform to
00:21:07.40\00:21:15.60
a point of view which comes from
a community which is not as
guided, perhaps, by their
00:21:15.60\00:21:21.21
perspective as are others. And
those are issues that are more
frequently coming before
00:21:21.21\00:21:27.98
the courts to be able to make a
determination on where we as a
nation stand, and that's an
00:21:27.98\00:21:33.32
interesting time to be involved
in a faith-based life. >> Yes.
00:21:33.32\00:21:36.62
And you used the word courts,
and so we have two lawyers with
00:21:36.62\00:21:40.63
us. Gentlemen, are we seeing
anything in the courts right now
that -- and I'll begin with you,
00:21:40.63\00:21:44.83
Gerry, that we are seeing
this danger or this -- and maybe
00:21:44.83\00:21:50.97
danger is even too strong of a
word, but we're seeing some of
the erosions of religious
00:21:50.97\00:21:55.48
liberty here in Canada? >> Well,
the one theme that has come out
in a few cases, and
00:21:55.48\00:22:01.52
it's unfortunate, is the idea
that the majority should be
deciding whether the minority
00:22:01.52\00:22:09.02
has a particular right, and
that's been coming out in the
university settings.
00:22:09.02\00:22:14.03
Both in public and private
universities, there's a debate
going on about whether or not
00:22:14.03\00:22:20.50
certain beliefs and belief
structures should be accepted
00:22:20.50\00:22:28.01
within society. And the general
trend amongst some of the lower
courts has been to accept the
00:22:28.01\00:22:37.19
idea that the majority can make
that call and can limit the
expression of the minority.
00:22:37.19\00:22:43.53
I find that disturbing, and it's
going to lead to nothing but a
limitation on our rights if we
00:22:43.53\00:22:53.74
don't step back from this debate
and ask ourselves whether or not
every kind of expression must be
00:22:53.74\00:23:02.81
protected so that we can have
this marketplace of ideas that
John Stuart Mill talked about
00:23:02.81\00:23:11.19
when he wrote over 100 years
ago. So, I am concerned about
00:23:11.19\00:23:15.99
our universities right now. >>
Kevin, we have just a little
under five minutes left.
00:23:15.99\00:23:22.80
And so we're going to continue
our discussion in the next show,
00:23:22.80\00:23:27.07
but I want to... Do we have any
specific cases in which we are
seeing some of these erosions
00:23:27.07\00:23:32.24
take place that can form a basis
for us to have some discussion
now and continue that discussion
00:23:32.24\00:23:37.48
in our next show? >> Yeah,
there are some cases before the
00:23:37.48\00:23:40.95
courts. One that was in June of
2017 starting about physician
conscience and whether, in
00:23:40.95\00:23:48.62
light of physician-assisted
suicide, whether they have the
00:23:48.62\00:23:52.33
right to dissent. And a lot of
what this comes from, I think,
the tension that we're seeing in
00:23:52.33\00:23:56.67
the law, has to do with --
unlike the United States, which
had a Bill of Rights based on
00:23:56.67\00:24:00.30
individual freedoms, we also
have an equality right in our
00:24:00.30\00:24:03.64
Charter. And the equality right
is intended to try and ensure
that nobody is discriminated
00:24:03.64\00:24:10.41
against based on religion or
race or sexual orientation or
any of the other enumerated or
00:24:10.41\00:24:15.22
analogous grounds. The
difficulty with the equality
right is in its application,
00:24:15.22\00:24:21.19
where it's being pushed into the
private sphere, being pushed
into Christian and other
00:24:21.19\00:24:25.73
religious institutions, pushed
into the home, pushed into
individuals' professions
00:24:25.73\00:24:30.10
in a way that has a conforming
effect, and that tension, in my
mind, is one of the biggest ones
00:24:30.10\00:24:37.37
that we're facing in the law in
Canada right now... is that the
use of the equality
00:24:37.37\00:24:41.18
right to try and create
conformity of thought and
conformity of action even when
00:24:41.18\00:24:46.75
it is within a private sphere.
And some of the cases that I
think we're going to talk about
00:24:46.75\00:24:51.15
in some of the next sessions --
you see that tension coming up,
and it all comes back to this
00:24:51.15\00:24:55.96
idea of carving out a space
where we as religious people or
different religions or
00:24:55.96\00:25:01.16
atheists can in fact have their
private space within their homes
and their institutions.
00:25:01.16\00:25:07.04
>> So, we talk about that
carving out of space, and so in
our last two minutes here,
00:25:07.04\00:25:11.34
Mark, I'm going to give you the
opportunity to kind of close us
off on this thought, this idea
00:25:11.34\00:25:16.34
of carving out a space for
people to not have to conform to
00:25:16.34\00:25:22.88
the majority, as Gerry was
talking about just a moment ago.
Can you give us some thoughts
00:25:22.88\00:25:26.12
on the importance of carving out
that space for people to not
have to conform to the majority?
00:25:26.12\00:25:31.66
>> Well, because a faith life is
a very personal experience,
right, because it is not sort of
00:25:31.66\00:25:39.23
a monolithic thing that would be
the same for every one of us
around this table, the thing
00:25:39.23\00:25:46.51
that becomes so very important
is to be able to give people the
opportunity to determine
00:25:46.51\00:25:52.55
how they relate to what it means
to live a life of faith. And
that may mean that it is
00:25:52.55\00:26:00.56
involved in everything that they
do, from going shopping -- when
they go shopping, where
00:26:00.56\00:26:05.33
they go shopping, what they
choose to purchase -- to a much
00:26:05.33\00:26:10.47
more laid-back approach to that
kind of thing. And it is the
right of the individual in the
00:26:10.47\00:26:17.31
sight of God to make that
determination as to how that
works. >> Well, I will tell you
00:26:17.31\00:26:21.38
-- this has been an exciting
discussion. We have laid a
foundation for our next shows,
00:26:21.38\00:26:26.15
where we're going to get into
some details. We're going to
help give people the opportunity
00:26:26.15\00:26:31.59
to see that there are cases
happening now that many times
don't make the front page of the
00:26:31.59\00:26:37.36
news, and we need to pay
attention to them. We need to be
praying. We need to be acting.
00:26:37.36\00:26:41.36
And we'll talk about what
all that means for each of us as
00:26:41.36\00:26:45.83
individuals. And so, as we
conclude our discussion here
today, I'd like to have a word
00:26:45.83\00:26:50.44
of prayer and ask the Lord's
blessing upon our discussion
that we've just had. So, let's
00:26:50.44\00:26:54.64
pray. Heavenly Father, we're
grateful for the fact that Your
very foundation of Your
00:26:54.64\00:27:01.95
government is that of freedom,
the freedom to choose. So, as
we've discussed this
00:27:01.95\00:27:07.69
freedom to choose, I pray for
every individual watching and
listening, that they would sense
00:27:07.69\00:27:13.06
that we serve a God Who chooses
to allow us to have choice. We
pray this in Jesus' name.
00:27:13.06\00:27:21.80
Amen. Friends, isn't it a
wonderful thing that the very
00:27:21.80\00:27:28.44
government of God is based on
the freedom of choice? And that
is what we discussed
00:27:28.44\00:27:32.95
today, this freedom of choice
and that freedom of choice that
God has created as a right for
00:27:32.95\00:27:38.79
every human being no matter
where they live. We've also
introduced the idea
00:27:38.79\00:27:43.73
that that freedom should be
continued in all societies and
in particular right here in
00:27:43.73\00:27:48.96
Canada. Today, I want to offer
you the DVD of this program.
00:27:48.96\00:27:53.90
This program lays the foundation
for several of the conversations
00:27:53.90\00:27:58.74
we're going to have. Here's the
information you need to receive
00:27:58.74\00:28:03.85
today's offer. >> To request
today's offer, just log on to
00:28:03.85\00:28:06.82
www.ItIsWrittenCanada.ca
and select the TV Program tab.
00:28:06.82\00:28:16.76
For Canadian viewers,
the offer will be sent free
00:28:16.76\00:28:20.03
and postage paid. For
viewers outside of Canada,
00:28:20.03\00:28:23.20
shipping charges will apply.
If you prefer, you may call
00:28:23.20\00:28:26.53
toll-free at 1-888-CALL-IIW.
Or if you wish, you may write to
00:28:26.53\00:28:36.11
us at It Is Written...
And thank you for your prayer
00:28:36.11\00:28:44.45
requests and your generous
financial support. >> Friend,
00:28:44.45\00:28:49.22
you know, in order for love to
truly be love, it must give you
the opportunity to say yes or to
00:28:49.22\00:28:54.23
say no. That's the very
foundation of God's government.
Today we've talked about that
00:28:54.23\00:28:58.00
freedom of choice, the freedom
of religion, and I'm so thankful
for my three guests, Kevin,
00:28:58.00\00:29:02.44
Mark, and Gerry, for joining me
today. Thank you, gentlemen, for
00:29:02.44\00:29:05.67
helping in this discussion.
Friend, if you want more
00:29:05.67\00:29:10.25
resources to learn about
this God of love Who gives the
00:29:10.25\00:29:13.58
freedom to choose, I want
to encourage you to go to our
00:29:13.58\00:29:15.35
website... Or you can go
00:29:15.35\00:29:18.65
to our YouTube channel...
There you can watch the
00:29:18.65\00:29:24.69
archives of this program.
There you can learn about this
00:29:24.69\00:29:28.06
God of love, Who
gives a freedom to choose.
00:29:28.06\00:29:30.60
Thank you so
much for joining us.
00:29:30.60\00:29:32.33
I invite you to
join us again next week.
00:29:32.33\00:29:34.60
Until then, remember, it is
written, "Man shall not live by
00:29:34.60\00:29:39.64
bread alone, but by every word
that proceeds from the mouth of
00:29:39.64\00:29:43.71
God." い
00:29:43.71\00:29:55.86
い い
00:29:55.86\00:30:14.18
い
00:30:14.18\00:30:19.21