Participants: Chris Holland (Host), Karl Tsatalbasidis
Series Code: IIWC
Program Code: IIWC201626A
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00:00 IIW-THE HOUSE ON THE ROCK #5
00:05 IIW-THE HOUSE ON THE ROCK #5 00:09 IIW-THE HOUSE ON THE ROCK #5 00:13 IIW-THE HOUSE ON THE ROCK #5 00:17 IIW-THE HOUSE ON THE ROCK #5 00:21 IIW-THE HOUSE ON THE ROCK #5 00:26 IIW-THE HOUSE ON THE ROCK #5 00:31 IIW-THE HOUSE ON THE ROCK #5 00:36 IIW-THE HOUSE ON THE ROCK #5 01:31 >>Announcer: It has stood the test of time. 01:35 God's book, The Bible 01:38 Still relevant in today's complex world 01:44 It Is Written 01:46 Sharing messages of hope around the world! 01:58 CHRIS: My dear friends, have you built a foundation that will stand the test of time? Now, I'm 02:04 not talking about your home's foundation. I'm sure that your home was built on a strong 02:09 foundation. But I'm talking about your spiritual life. Have you built on a foundation that 02:15 will withstand the trials of everyday life? That willwithstand the turmoil of the 02:22 earth upon which we're living? You know, for the past several weeks, that's what we've been 02:27 talking about: building strong foundations. And the foundation specifically we have spoken of 02:35 time and time again is the foundation of the sanctuary, its centrality to the framework of 02:44 having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. And the individual who's been with me 02:51 for the entire journey, helping us to understand, is Pastor Karl Tsatalbasidis. Pastor Karl, I 02:57 want to welcome you back to It Is Written Canada. PASTOR KARL: It's good to be back 03:00 again, Chris. CHRIS: You know, Pastor Karl, you have spent 18 years in ministry as a pastor. 03:06 Now you minister in the classroom; you have taught at the collegiate level. You are 03:11 about to put the final periods, final crossing of the t's on a Ph.D. dissertation, so we'll be 03:20 able to call you Dr. T. very soon. We're looking forward to that. And Pastor Karl, you, in 03:28 your Ph.D. studies, have been studying a lot about the presence of God, which has led 03:34 you to spend a lot of time studying and really digging into the sanctuary. Now, over the 03:42 course of the last several weeks, we have built a very clear framework. There is a real 03:46 sanctuary in heaven. That real sanctuary in heaven is where God is and where God is calling us 03:52 to turn toward, not out of some blind faith obedience, but rather, to turn there because 04:01 God desires to have a personal relationship with us. And the sanctuary is really all about 04:07 that bridge or that integration of heaven and earth. And we've looked at that. If you have 04:14 missed any of the programs, friend, I want you to go to www.youtube.com/IIWCanada. 04:23 There, you can find the archives of these programs, and you can catch up and be current with 04:29 this program today. But Pastor Karl, where we left off is, I had asked you the question, 04:35 "What happens if we reject the heavenly sanctuary? Can we still be faithful to the scriptures?" 04:42 Which, I know this sounds like a very obvious question, but there are a lot people out there that 04:47 reject the reality of the sanctuary and claim to be faithful to the scriptures. Is 04:53 that possible? PASTOR KARL: We're going to turn to a story in First Kings chapter 12 04:58 that I think will really settle the issue. And as we look into that story, you're going to see 05:03 that it's going to be difficult to impossible in order to do that. So why don't we take some 05:08 time and look at First Kings chapter 12 in order to try to answer this question? And so 05:14 your question really is, yes, "Can we still hold to the authority of the Bible if we 05:19 reject the sanctuary?" So turn with me to First Kings chapter 12, and we're going to begin at 05:25 verse 25. Just a little bit of a context here, Solomon, King Solomon is now dead, and because 05:33 of his sins, the kingdom has been divided into two. You have the southern kingdom, which is 05:40 basically Judah, run by his son Rehoboam, and then ten tribes have been given to Jeroboam. And 05:48 so we pick it up in verse 25, and I'll go ahead and maybe read verses 25 to the end of the 05:54 chapter to verse 33, and then we're kind of going to expound on these as we go, as we seek to 05:58 answer this question. CHRIS: Now, Pastor Karl, just so people are very, very clear 06:02 where we're at in the whole history of Israel, King David had a son Solomon. King David 06:07 has died. His son Solomon, who we've talked about a number of times, actually built the temple 06:14 there in Jerusalem. King Solomon goes through a very lengthy experience. He returns to God 06:22 before he dies. But at this point, the kingdom has kind of been left in a bit of apostasy, 06:30 so to speak. He has a son Rehoboam. Rehoboam does not follow the counsel of the 06:37 elders. And so Israel splits in two: the southern kingdom, the northern kingdom. The southern 06:43 kingdom of Judah, which Rehoboam is now king over, and then the northern kingdom, the ten 06:50 tribes, and their headquarters, their capital is in Samaria. And that is being governed by a king 07:03 there, and that king is Jeroboam. Just to be really clear. And now we pick up the 07:09 story in First Kings 12:25. Okay, let's start right there. 08:43 PASTOR KARL: And so the question is, what really is the sin of Jeroboam, and what does it have 08:47 to do with the question that we're seeking to answer here? And the question is, "Can I just 08:51 reject the sanctuary, and at the same time, adhere to the authority of God's Word?" Or 08:56 maybe we can ask it in reverse: "Can I adhere to the authority of God's Word and reject the 09:03 sanctuary?" Well, in verse 28, even before that, in verse 27, he's trying to find a way in 09:11 order to gain the loyalties of the people to himself. CHRIS: Right. He's worried. And 09:16 just so everyone is clear as you were reading, you know, you had there in verse 27, offerings and 09:22 sacrifices made at the house of the Lord. That'sreferring to the temple. That's referring to the 09:28 sanctuary. PASTOR KARL: Correct. CHRIS: So he's greatly concerned, because these tribes, 09:30 the northern peoples of Israel, three times a year, at the feasts, are going to return to 09:40 the sanctuary, return to the temple, and he's quite worried that when they go there, they're 09:45 going to turn their back on him, and he's going to be left kind of holding an empty kingdom. 09:53 PASTOR KARL: Like, "What am I doing here?" CHRIS: What is he doing there? So he's looking for 09:56 a way of, "How do I win the people? How do I keep the people to myself?" PASTOR KARL: Mmhmm. 09:59 CHRIS: And so then ? PASTOR KARL: Yeah. So we pick it up in verse. the Bible is pulling the 10:06 curtain aside and helping us to understand his thought processes. 10:22 Then he plays the old card, "This is for security reasons. We need to preserve ourselves. 10:25 Then they're going to come and kill me." And there was, like, an imminent threat that had to 10:30 be turned around. So there was some kind of threat that was going on. And, just like some 10:34 politician who will say, "Never let a good crisis go to waste," he thought, "Huh, this is a way, 10:39 there is an imminent crisis, so I'm going to use this as a pretext in order to gain the 10:43 loyalties of the people to myself." And so here it is in verse 28. What is the sin of 10:49 Jeroboam, ultimately? It says: 10:56 PASTOR KARL: And I want to stop right there. It says that he took counsel. And the result of 11:02 that counsel was making two calves of gold. Now, very simply, where did he not get his 11:10 counsel from? CHRIS: Very clearly, he's not getting his counsel from scripture, because, 11:15 first of all, we see a calf of gold coming up in an earlier time in the history of Israel, 11:20 and I think you're probably going to turn there and we're going to talk about that. But 11:24 secondly, the Ten Commandments make it very clear that we don't need to make images. We don't 11:28 need to make an image. And the sanctuary, which we've been studying, has been clear that we 11:32 don't need images to worship, to come into connection with God; we can worship God Himself. 11:37 PASTOR KARL: Yes. And so he's getting his counsel, but it's very clear he's not getting it 11:42 from the first five books of the Bible, the Pentateuch. In fact, if you turn with me to 11:47 Deuteronomy chapter 4, we can pick it up in verse 12 and read a few verses there. And God had 11:55 some specific counsel for them about the dangers of what Jeroboam was about to do. 12:50 PASTOR KARL: And then it continues to go on about the ill effects about this kind of 12:53 idolatry. So God reminds them and says, "Look, you are not to do this. You are not to confuse 13:00 Me with the material creation," as you alluded to in the Ten Commandments. So in First Kings 13:06 12, when it says the king took counsel, he got that counsel from the surrounding nations, 13:12 from the traditions and the philosophies of the surrounding nations. That began to replace 13:18 the authority of God's Word at that point. CHRIS: So Jeroboam makes a very distinct departure 13:26 from the Word of God, which also, in turn, leads to a departure from worship in the 13:36 sanctuary. PASTOR KARL: Absolutely. That's exactly the logical flow. So he took 13:44 counsel and made two calves of gold and said unto them, "It's too much for you to go to 13:49 Jerusalem." As you alluded to earlier, three times a year, God's people would come to 13:54 Jerusalem, and they would come not just to the city, but because God's presence was 13:58 manifested there in the temple. He would promise to meet His people at that location and 14:05 reveal Himself through the service of the sanctuary there. And so the rejection of God's 14:13 Word then led to a rejection of the sanctuary as the framework for understanding - and we're 14:18 going to flesh this out a little bit now - for understanding the nature of God, the nature of 14:24 church leadership, and other issues as well. This was really the predominant sin. let me 14:30 state it this way: obviously, Jeroboam's sin had to do with worship. I mean, there was a 14:37 worship centre in Dan, there was a worship centre in Bethel. Obviously, it had to do with who 14:41 was qualified to lead, as later on, it said, you know, he ordained priests that were not 14:45 of the tribe of Levi. Those were all things, obviously, it had to do with the nature of God. But 14:47 of the tribe of Levi. Those were all things, obviously, it had to do with the nature of God. But 14:52 at the rock-bottom foundation, is the rejection of God's Word, the rejection of His Word. And 14:58 with that, you cannot reject God's Word and at the same time, cling to the sanctuary, because 15:03 when He rejected God's Word, the with that, you cannot reject God's Word and at the same time, sanctuary was completely out. It lost its meaning, it lost its cling to the sanctuary, because 15:05 when He rejected God's Word, the sanctuary was completely out. It lost its meaning, it lost its 15:10 ability to provide guidance and interpretation to all of these things. Now, 200 years later, 15:17 if we can turn to Second Kings chapter 17, the Assyrians are taking over. They're just 15:28 annihilating all the nations. And they're coming to Israel. And finally, the northern 15:34 kingdom is completely just annexed away. They're completely dispersed within the Assyrian 15:40 empire. And the writer in the book of Kings here states the cause of it all. And we pick it 15:47 up in Second Kings chapter 17 and verse 20, 16:13 PASTOR KARL: I think that's significant. So this is 200 years later now, and it's 16:16 saying, "You know what the cause of the fall is? That which Jeroboam instituted at the very 16:20 beginning when he set up the two calves of gold that were really the result of him rejecting 16:24 God's Word." That was the major problem. And the Bible called that a great sin. Now, all sin 16:31 is ultimately directed against God, but there are some sins that are much larger in their 16:36 effects and in their magnitude than others. When we reject God's Word and we reject the 16:41 sanctuary, we reject the lenses, as we alluded to in a previous program, we reject the lenses 16:47 through which we should understand God and view Him and everything else. And the problem 16:53 then becomes systemic. When my wife went into nursing, I learned a new word. See, I study 16:59 systematic theology. And so when she was working in the cancer unit, if cancer was systemic, 17:05 that means it was inoperable. There was no place the physician could go and simply excise a 17:10 little part of the problem, because it was all over the place. CHRIS: That's right. 17:13 PASTOR KARL: And this is the magnitude of the sanctuary message and the devastation that 17:18 happened as a result of Jeroboam's sin. And if we go back to First Kings 12, and we 17:24 just take a cursory glance, every successive king followed in the steps of Jeroboam. And it 17:31 had this commentary for just about every single one of them in First Kings 14, and I think 17:36 we still have Jeroboam. And so we can look at First Kings 15 and verse 29 and 30. It says: 18:03 PASTOR KARL: We could read verse 34, we could go to First Kings 16 where it talks about Omri and 18:08 then Ahab. The commentary is exactly the same: neither did he depart from the sin of Jeroboam, 18:14 who caused Israel to sin. The next guy, same commentary, same commentary, same commentary, 18:18 until we get to Second Kings 17, and they're all taken away. CHRIS: And you know, the sad 18:26 commentary on Israel is, as you've said, between Jeroboam and the end of the kingdom, 18:33 there is that repeated phrase that you talk about, "following in the sins of Jeroboam," and 18:39 also that phrase, "and he did evil in the sight of the Lord." The sad thing about Israel, 18:44 there is never a restoration, there is never a revival. Now, Judah, on the other hand, we see 18:52 in that kingdom, there is kind of a rollercoaster ride, where there's departure. And we don't 18:58 have time to go there today, but it's interesting, in every departure, there is a 19:02 restoration that takes place: a restoration of the temple; a restoration of Passover, which 19:09 is really a restoration of celebrating or worshipping at the temple; a restoration of the 19:15 law of God, which is ultimately a restoration of the Word. Any revival was preceded by the 19:22 restoring, which is interesting. And I don't want to get us too off course, but it is 19:28 interesting when you look at the end of time.God's people, Revelation 12:17, what is their 19:35 chief characteristics? They keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus. 19:41 Revelation 14:12, they keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus. Every revival, 19:48 every restoration in the history of God's people has been preceded by a return to the 19:56 Word, which is framed and founded on a return to the sanctuary. PASTOR KARL: Correct. 20:04 CHRIS: The sin of Jeroboam ultimately demonstrates to us, when we depart from the 20:09 sanctuary, we depart from the Word. And there's really, it leads to only one thing, and 20:17 that is, complete departure from God and the abandonment of founding one's life on His 20:26 principles. PASTOR KARL: Yeah, Chris, if I could give a few examples from First Kings 12 as 20:30 to how this new direction changed their conceptions about God. I think it's important so 20:35 that the viewers could understand that when the authority of God's Word is gone 20:41 and the sanctuary is gone, how we view God is reinterpreted. For instance, back to First 20:47 Kings 12:28: 20:58 PASTOR KARL: So now, God is being associated with the material creation. So His being 21:05 and His essence now are being intertwined with the things that He has made. So when God's Word 21:12 is gone, when the sanctuary is gone, we lose this idea that God is a personal God that 21:17 transcends the creation. As the Sabbath commandment even reminds us, that He has created these 21:23 things, He transcends these things, His Being and His Essence should not be confused 21:28 with these things. But the moment that foundation is gone, now you have God that is 21:33 intertwined, the nature of God, intertwined with the nature of the stuff that He's made. And 21:39 the ultimate result of that is, nature worship. But I bet if you were to ask the Israelites 21:44 or Jeroboam, who was really leading out in this kind of worship renewal or worship 21:48 revival, they would never admit that they're worshipping nature. They're just altering, you know, 21:55 they're just doing things in a new way, so to speak. But how we worship God, the forms that we 22:01 use, the rituals that we use, are actually an interpretation of Who He is. And that's one 22:09 major problem. So you have a whole complete reinterpretation of the nature of God, which is 22:14 devastating, which then gets worked out into how they worship and how they choose leaders. For 22:21 instance, in verse 31-32, they chose leaders that were not qualified by the Bible. And 22:27 it's interesting, if you follow the account in the story of the kings, there was nothing but 22:32 infighting and obtaining positions through deceit, through murder, through all 22:38 these types of things. Because when the standards of God's Word are withdrawn, then who gains 22:44 those positions? The wealthy, the powerful, the influential. And so you have all of this 22:48 infighting going on when these foundations are destroyed. CHRIS: So clearly, what we see 22:55 here, Karl, is that when the foundation is removed, when that lens is taken away, it blurs the 23:03 very character of God, Who He is and how we worship Him. Now, Pastor Karl, we've already 23:11 learned that you actually grew up here in the Toronto area. PASTOR KARL: That's right. 23:15 CHRIS: How has this message helped you encounter Jesus in a special way? Did you grow up 23:21 believing in Jesus? Did you grow up believing that the sanctuary was the framework and the 23:27 foundation upon which you should live? PASTOR KARL: I'd never heard of these things before, 23:30 Chris. I grew up in the Scarborough area. And you know, we didn't really go to church a 23:38 whole lot, just maybe weddings, funerals, things of that sort. So I wasn't really immersed or 23:44 had much knowledge about God's Word. And it was kind of through studying the prophetic word that 23:52 I really realized that the Bible began to be true. And particularly, some of the 23:57 passages that we alluded to before in Daniel chapter 8 about the sanctuary being cleansed and 24:02 the discovery of the sanctuary in heaven, and how the sacrifice of Christ was prophesied of in 24:08 Daniel, I began to have new hope that there was something foundational, that there was 24:13 something secure. For me, that meant a lot, because I really didn't know. I couldn't really 24:16 say that I was an atheist. I was more like an agnostic; I just didn't really know. I wanted to 24:22 believe, but I really had no anchor, or no basis, or no reason to believe. And one of 24:29 my favourite texts was Isaiah 1:18 where God says, "Come now and let us reason together." I 24:36 thought, "Wow, you mean God can actually talk to me in a way that I could understand? And 24:41 that if I have questions, and I'm just looking for evidence, He understands that?" That just 24:46 really blew me away. And so as I saw the sanctuary linked with prophecy, I began to have 24:51 evidence of the fact that the Bible is true, that Christ is doing a special work for me up 24:57 there, and He's seeking to bring all of us into unity with Himself. So it began to really 25:02 play a major part in forming who I was as a new Christian, and even in the work that I'm doing 25:09 now in studying worship in the sanctuary as well. CHRIS: So you were a 20-something here in the 25:17 Toronto area. You really were living a life that was founded on philosophy, really, 25:23 effectively. Philosophy had played asignificant influence. But you are looking for 25:29 something more. PASTOR KARL: Absolutely. CHRIS: You encounter the Bible. You 25:33 encounter, and you begin to see that as you're having these questions - and I can relate to 25:39 this, because I found myself in the same situation around the same age, where you know, I was 25:44 never an atheist; I knew there had to be something, but I just wasn't sure what it was. And my 25:49 concept of God was just this distant, way-out-there Being. PASTOR KARL: Correct, yeah. 25:54 CHRIS: You encounter these passages, Daniel 8, Daniel 7, Daniel 9, where you understand 25:59 the reality of the sanctuary. It leads you to this developing of a relationship of that Isaiah 26:07 1:18 moment, "Come and let us reason together," where you see that the sanctuary teaches that 26:13 God's interaction is on heaven and on earth and that He wanted to interact with you personally. 26:20 PASTOR KARL: Mmhmm. CHRIS: It led you not only to accept that Jesus in fact died for your 26:25 sins, and not only were you baptized, become a Christian, you go into a life of ministry, 26:31 trying to help people find that, but it's led you to your Ph.D. studies, where you've studied 26:36 about worship and the sanctuary. And in the last minute and a half we have together here, 26:43 Pastor Karl, what can you say to help our viewer understand to know that the same God you 26:51 encountered is the same God that wants to encounter them through the sanctuary? PASTOR 26:56 KARL: Chris, I just had an awesome experience as God began to unfold to me the beauty and 27:02 the power of these passages. I began to see prophecy linked with the sanctuary, and that was 27:08 meaningful for me, because prophecy helped me to understand the Bible was true. And I was 27:12 looking for a foundation. And perhaps many viewers today are looking for that, and they've 27:16 been inundated with scientism and evolutionism, like I have, and all these things. And so I 27:20 found a lot of intellectual comfort and hope, but also, I like to study philosophy, but 27:27 philosophy can be dry. And I'm so glad that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and 27:33 that the word is made flesh and we can have a personal relationship with Him. And so 27:39 combining the theoretical and the personal relationship with Christ has been just absolutely 27:43 superb. And I would just encourage people to come taste and see that the Lord is good. 27:49 CHRIS: With that, let's have a word of prayer. Heavenly Father, I pray for every person 27:55 watching, every person listening today, that they would come and taste and see that You are good. 28:03 We pray this in Jesus' name, amen. PASTOR KARL: Amen. 28:14 CHRIS: Dear friends, throughout the scripture, there is one thread, one crimson thread. That 28:20 crimson thread is the blood of Christ and how He gave His life for yours. The sanctuary leads 28:27 us to understand that crimson thread and how Jesus wants to personally interact with you. 28:34 Today, I want to offer you the book, Where God and I Meet: The Sanctuary. Here's the 28:40 information you need to receive today's offer. 29:24 CHRIS: My dear friends, foundations are everything, and the foundation of the sanctuary 29:30 is essential to your growth in Jesus and coming close to Him. Pastor Karl, I want to thank you 29:37 for showing and demonstrating to us the essential nature of the foundation of the sanctuary. 29:43 PASTOR KARL: It's been great, Chris. CHRIS: Dear friend, I hope that today, you were moved 29:48 to choose Jesus. I hope you'll join us again next week. Until then, remember, it is written: 29:56 "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." |
Revised 2017-05-12