Participants: Chris Holland
Series Code: IIWC
Program Code: IIWC201625A
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00:00 IIW-2016-25 --- THE HOUSE ON THE ROCK #4
00:04 IIW-2016-25 --- THE HOUSE ON THE ROCK #4 00:08 IIW-2016-25 --- THE HOUSE ON THE ROCK #4 00:12 IIW-2016-25 --- THE HOUSE ON THE ROCK #4 00:19 IIW-2016-25 --- THE HOUSE ON THE ROCK #4 00:23 IIW-2016-25 --- THE HOUSE ON THE ROCK #4 00:27 IIW-2016-25 --- THE HOUSE ON THE ROCK #4 00:31 IIW-2016-25 --- THE HOUSE ON THE ROCK #4 00:35 IIW-2016-25 --- THE HOUSE ON THE ROCK #4 00:40 IIW-2016-25 --- THE HOUSE ON THE ROCK #4 00:44 IIW-2016-25 --- THE HOUSE ON THE ROCK #4 01:31 >>Announcer: It has stood the test of time. 01:35 God's book, The Bible 01:38 Still relevant in today's complex world 01:44 It Is Written 01:46 Sharing messages of hope around the world! 01:58 CHRIS: You know, dear friends, one of the things I enjoy, is I enjoy a good pen. And recently, 02:04 I was given a gift of a pen that was made from the oak on the York Minster, the York Minster, 02:13 of course, in York, England. There was a fire there many, many years ago. And from those 02:19 timbers, they've been able to turn pens and make nice fountain pens from them. But you know, 02:26 this show's not about fountain pens; it is about foundations. And why is that important? Well, 02:32 you see, when the York Minster, a large cathedral, was built, it was built with no foundation. 02:42 How did they find that out? Several years ago, the architects who care for the 02:49 maintenance of the facility noticed that the walls on the side began to bow out slightly. 02:56 What was happening? As they began to research, what they found was that the York Minster, 03:02 a large cathedral built out of stone, had actually simply been built upon the fallen timbers of 03:11 the church that was there before. There was no foundation Now, those architects were able 03:19 to save the York Minster. They dug under it and they did what architects and engineers do, and 03:24 they put foundations in after the fact. But foundations are critical. And just as they are 03:33 critical in building structures, foundations in the spiritual life are absolutely essential, 03:42 as we weather the storms of life. And so to help talk about the foundations in the spiritual 03:51 life, I have a guest with me. He's been with us for several shows now. Pastor Karl 03:57 Tsatalbasidis. Pastor Karl, welcome back to It Is Written Canada. PASTOR KARL: Always good 04:02 to be here in Toronto. CHRIS: You know, Pastor Karl, I am excited about what we've been 04:06 studying. You know, this is an area of expertise for you. You spent 18 years of your life 04:13 pastoring churches, then sensed a call to go into the world of teaching. You've spent some time 04:21 working on a Ph.D. You're about to wrap up your dissertation for that Ph.D. You spent five years 04:27 teaching at the collegiate level. And you're studying about the presence of God, and that 04:34 leads directly to the sanctuary. we've spent four shows now looking at the sanctuary, 04:45 looking at what is happening with the sanctuary. And now, as we enter into that time, we want 04:49 to ask some questions, because what we've seen is, number one, there is a sanctuary, a real 04:55 sanctuary in heaven. Number two, God gave instructions for the building of an earthly 05:00 sanctuary, that we might learn about Him through that earthly structure. But when that earthly 05:07 structure was destroyed, there was the encouragement to turn to the heavenly. PASTOR 05:13 KARL: Mmhmm. CHRIS: We spent time with this last show, knowing and understanding that 05:21 the sanctuary is really the lens. And we used that illustration of going to the eye 05:28 doctor, when the eye doctor says, "Number one, number two." That one that brings with 05:33 crystal clear clarity, the sanctuary clarifies not just the Bible, not just a relationship 05:40 with Jesus, but really clarifies life itself. Where we ended is, we talked about how there's 05:47 been a grand attack against the sanctuary. Daniel 8, Revelation 13 predict that the sanctuary 05:54 would be trampled underfoot through the rise of philosophy. And where we ended is, we were 06:02 talking about, historically, we just don't hear about the sanctuary. So where I want to 06:10 begin today, because we want to talk about the hope, because I asked you that question in our 06:17 last question, "Is there any hope?" And you said yes: the restoration of the sanctuary. 06:21 So here's the question I want to begin with today: How can we restore the sanctuary foundation 06:32 in our own lives? And I understand for us to understand how we restore it in our own 06:36 lives, maybe we should look at scripture and see how, when that paradigm, when that lens has 06:44 been lost, how God has restored His people to have the foundation of the sanctuary. Do 06:50 we have any examples? Can we go somewhere to learn this? PASTOR KARL: Yeah, sure, we spent some 06:53 time in the book of Daniel, and even in Daniel chapter 1, it starts of course with 06:59 Nebuchadnezzar coming in and hauling off all the vessels of the sanctuary to the house of 07:06 his god. Well, eventually, you know, Jeremiah had prophesied in Jeremiah chapter 25 that God's 07:11 people would remain there 70 years, and that afterwards, they would come back. And when they 07:18 came back, they ended up rebuilding that sanctuary, which was the centre of their life 07:24 before. All of the books after the Babylonian exile, like the minor prophets there, they all 07:32 talked about it, like Haggai and Zachariah and Malachi especially. And then you have 07:39 the historical books of Ezra and Nehemiah, which talk about God's people leaving Babylon and 07:42 coming back towards Jerusalem, because they realized that this was part of the plan of God. 07:48 And I think, as we look back on that history, that Biblical history, it was a microcosm of 07:55 what would happen also to God's people, like during the Dark Ages, when the little horn 08:00 would, through its philosophical thinking, obscure our vision of that heavenly sanctuary, eclipse 08:06 it, if you will, and there would also be a restoration on a much larger scale. So we can look 08:13 back to immediate Biblical history and say, "After the exile, there are so many books, 08:18 especially Haggai and Zechariah and Malachi which talk about the fact that this sanctuary needed 08:25 to be restored." And that's what gave them their hope, that's what gave them their sense of 08:30 belonging, that's what gave them principles about worship, and just about everything else. 08:34 CHRIS: And you know, we see this early on with God's people. God's people go into. they are 08:43 taken into captivity in Egypt. They're there for 400 years. And through that 400 years, 08:53 undoubtedly, they lost sight of their relationship with God, how they relate to God. How does God 09:01 restore. and I'm going to introduce - and you may want to expand on this - how does God 09:07 restore this in His people when that image, that character, has been lost? PASTOR KARL: Yes, 09:15 that's a very good question. How does He restore that? As we begin to behold Him, that's how 09:22 it begins to happen. But what has often happened is that tradition and philosophy have 09:27 been obscuring our view of Him. And so we're beholding Him through not the right lenses, 09:33 through maybe lens one instead of lens two, you know, when you go to the optometrist. And 09:38 because of that, our estimate of His character is not what it should be. So the sanctuary, 09:46 then, helps us to refocus our vision as to Who God is. And I believe we're going to spend 09:50 more time on this in the future regarding the character of God in the great controversy. But 09:55 I'm going to go to a text in Romans chapter 12 verses 1 and 2 here, where I think you can see 10:02 some sanctuary language being applied in a personal way. CHRIS: Alright, that sounds 10:07 good. PASTOR KARL: Towards you and I. You know, at the centre of that sanctuary, in the Most 10:13 Holy Place, was the presence of God. And the presence of God is where the throne is located in 10:18 heaven. And there you have the ark of the covenant. And the Ten Commandments would sit 10:24 underneath that. So God and the commandments there are in that heavenly sense, and they were 10:30 duplicated also in the earthly. And in Romans chapter 12, along with that image in your mind, is 10:38 the whole image of the sacrificial system and how the lambs were offered. And they had 10:43 to be without spot and without blemish. And in Romans 12:1, it says: 11:02 PASTOR KARL: Actually, that phrase "your reasonable service" could better be translated as 11:06 "an act of worship." The Greek word is latria which means "an act of service" or "an act of 11:11 worship." And so, here we are, it's borrowing from the sanctuary imagery about us being 11:17 a living sacrifice, which is what Christ was. And so the sanctuary points us to Christ; 11:24 He is the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. And it also actually helps us to 11:30 calibrate our view of Him, especially on the cross, when He blended together justice and 11:36 mercy. I mean, what a problem that God had. How was He going to be just and yet forgive us at 11:40 the same time? Well, it took the Son of God in order to be able to do that. And when we behold 11:45 His character, when we behold Him through those lenses, then we begin to emulate that 11:52 character in our lives. CHRIS: Mmhmm. This is a very powerful. because what we're 11:58 seeing here - and again, it stands in direct opposition to the philosophical influences 12:05 that have pervaded, frankly, have pervaded many churches and has pervaded society in general 12:12 - and that is, this idea that God doesn't want to interact with us, that God is out to get 12:19 us. But rather, the Biblical view through the lens, the framework, the foundation of the 12:25 sanctuary, is that God wants personal interaction. And what we see is - and we've already 12:31 read Exodus 25:8: 12:38 CHRIS: And it's actually very interesting, for those that are watching, for those that are 12:41 listening, that have not studied the sanctuary; the wilderness sanctuary was set up at the very 12:48 centre of the encampment of Israel. And so the sanctuary was set up at centre, and then all 12:58 of the different tribes of Israel were set up around it, demonstrating God's desire to be 13:04 central in our lives, His desire to be right in the midst of us. The temple itself, the temple, 13:13 the permanent structure built in Jerusalem, was built right at the centre of the town. But what 13:19 we are seeing is that the sanctuary shows us a lens, shows us a foundation, a framework, of 13:27 where God, where heaven and earth are integrated, where there is this. too often, when I 13:35 hear people talk, they talk about heaven out there, we're here, and it's really a deist 13:43 point of view that God kind of created the earth, like a little top, set it on a spin, and He's 13:50 off there somewhere, and we're down here. But the sanctuary changes that, changes that lens, 13:57 that understanding entirely, and we see this intimate integration between heaven and earth. What 14:04 kind of Bible verses do we have to help see this integration where God actually not only 14:10 wants to be a part of our lives, but is in fact a part of our lives, and how does the 14:16 sanctuary teach us that? PASTOR KARL: Chris, let's go back to exodus chapter 20. And that's 14:20 the chapter on the Ten Commandments, of course. And most of us will read that and 14:26 say, "Well, okay, it says God spoke all these words." And it was surprising to me, when I was 14:34 digging a little deeper, that the scriptures actually pointed out that God's voice came not 14:42 just from earth, but from heaven. And after having read the chapter so many times, I was 14:47 incredulous and wondering how I could have missed it. So as you look at Exodus chapter 20, 14:53 obviously, it wraps up in verse 17, and then you have the people's reaction. And then in 14:59 verse 22 of Exodus 20, it says: 15:13 PASTOR KARL: Very surprising. And Deuteronomy 4:36, it also makes it clear there. Now, 15:19 Deuteronomy chapter 5 is the Ten Commandments given again, and Deuteronomy 4 is the brief 15:25 context before that. There's some really excellent warning there in verse 14 and 15. He 15:32 says, "You what? Take heed, lest you make any image, because on that day, when I spoke the Ten 15:39 commandments, you didn't see anything; you only heard a voice," and that's very 15:42 significant, and we'll begin to capitalize on that later. But in verse 36, it says: 16:00 PASTOR KARL: And basically, Nehemiah 9:13 says the same - very similar - in recounting the 16:04 Ten Commandments, that God's voice actually came from heaven. And so here we have God's voice 16:08 coming from heaven and from earth at the same time, is what the text is revealing. Now, I 16:15 need to go back to Greek thinking in here and Platonic philosophy for a moment, because 16:19 this absolutely shatters that framework, because in Platonic thinking, there is no past, 16:27 present, and future. You know, when you and I are talking right now, talking assumes times. 16:31 CHRIS: Right. PASTOR KARL: You can't talk without a past, a present, and a future. But to 16:35 them, when God speaks, there is no time. He speaks outside of time. Well, that obviously 16:43 changes the content of what God is speaking. And they readily admit that, and they say things 16:49 like, "Well, the sanctuary where God wanted to dwell among us is just an allegory. It's not 16:54 really real. It's just designed to show us that there's an interaction between God and us; 16:59 that's it." And so they'll begin to allegorize that. So there's a timeless content, and then 17:04 there's an earthly content. But the Bible here is saying, "No, the content that God speaks from 17:10 heaven is exactly the same content that He's speaking on earth here as well." And this 17:15 bridges the gap, then, between heaven and earth that has been so eclipsed by the little horn. 17:21 We mentioned First Kings chapter 8 as well. And when Solomon was praying his 17:26 dedicatory prayer as the temple was set up, he said: Hear thou in heaven. And when thou 17:32 hearest, forgive. PASTOR KARL: Now, here he is, he's speaking to his people, he's 17:36 speaking to God up in heaven, but he's addressing God as if He's in heaven, and he's 17:40 expecting God to hear from heaven and to help him out when his people are in trouble. You 17:46 know, there may be many viewers today that are in trouble. And Solomon, knowing the heart of 17:50 man and knowing that we're so quick to stray from God, brings up so many scenarios, and he 17:55 says, "Hey, if your people are caught sinning and doing this and that, then remember, Lord, 18:00 when they come back and confess their sins, to hear from heaven and to forgive." I want to go 18:05 to the book of Revelation just to kind of tie in this close communication between heaven and 18:10 earth as well. CHRIS: That sounds good. PASTOR KARL: So let's go to Revelation. And in 18:15 Revelation chapter 1 verse 13, John sees Jesus as the Son of man. In verse 12, he sees Him in 18:24 the context of the seven golden candlesticks. And then He's the High Priest in verse 13. Now, in 18:30 verse 16, it says: 18:57 PASTOR KARL: In Revelation chapters 2 and 3, there are seven messages that Jesus 19:01 speaks. And they all begin introducing Him in some way. And He's the One that is speaking. 19:07 But it says in chapter 2 verse 1: 19:21 PASTOR KARL: That's, of course, identifying Jesus as the speaker. CHRIS: That's right. 19:24 PASTOR KARL: So this message is actually coming from Christ, and the context here is in that 19:29 heavenly sanctuary where He is among the seven golden candlesticks. When you get to 19:33 the end of that message - and this happens at the end of every single message - like in verse 19:38 7, it says: 19:51 PASTOR KARL: So the message that Jesus originated, He sends to the angel, to the leader, 19:57 perhaps to the elder of the church in Ephesus and Smyrna and the other churches. And as they 20:02 begin to relate that message to the congregation, the end result is that the Holy Spirit is 20:08 speaking not just to that individual church, but to all the churches. And so you have 20:14 this dynamic interaction of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary originating the message. He is 20:19 the Word of God Himself. He is sending that message through John. John is sending it then to 20:24 the angel, the representative of all these seven churches. They are speaking the message, and 20:30 the end result is that that's what the Holy Spirit is saying to all the churches. And I 20:35 could go also and talk about the fact that many times throughout the book of Revelation, you have 20:39 these angelic voices that are speaking. And the angelic voices are not just speaking by 20:44 themselves; they are using human instruments in order to declare their message, like in 20:49 Revelation chapter 14. CHRIS: Okay. PASTOR KARL: And so it says in Revelation 14:6: 21:05 PASTOR KARL: Well, it's phrased as if angels are speaking, but again, when you look at the 21:10 pattern of the seven churches, the message is given to the leaders of the churches. They 21:14 are the ones that are speaking it. And here in Revelation, it's almost as if the angels 21:18 themselves are speaking it when you and I begin to proclaim that everlasting gospel. So Christ is 21:25 speaking, the angels are speaking as we speak God's Words, and there's this dynamic 21:30 interaction going on, then, between heaven and earth. CHRIS: And you know, what's so 21:34 powerful about this, Karl, is that the devil, in an effort to separate us, wants people to 21:44 believe that God doesn't want to have anything to do with us. In fact, there are kind of two 21:52 polar opposites that are brought up. First, is that God is so holy, so out there, that we 22:01 cannot have any communication with Him. PASTOR KARL: The timeless God. CHRIS: The 22:06 timeless God. The second is, I am so filthy, so worthless, that I can't interact with the Most 22:14 Holy God. And what you're talking about is that the sanctuary provides a foundation 22:20 and a framework that God desires interaction. Not only does He desire interaction, but has 22:27 demonstrated that interaction throughout time, throughout space. And while it may be 22:35 difficult to understand, because we're talking a lot about time and space, and some people might 22:39 be, "Whoa, you know speaking of the God Who was and is and is to come, you know, the One Who 22:44 exists forever, and we're talking about this idea of timelessness," yet God doesn't 22:50 exist in timelessness; God has intersected us. Well, He did more than intersect us; He 22:57 created us in time, in space, and wants to interact with us in that time and in that space. And 23:06 that gives us tremendous hope, and that's really what the sanctuary is all about, is the 23:11 hope that He gives. PASTOR KARL: And Chris, as you were talking, I mean, my mind was 23:14 going to John chapter 1 verse 14, which is shrouded in sanctuary imagery and language 23:20 as well. Now, notice, well, I mean, look at the beginning: 23:52 PASTOR KARL: You mentioned Exodus 25:8: Let them build me a sanctuary, that I may dwell 23:56 among them. PASTOR KARL: And here, you find the God of the universe taking on human flesh. 24:03 That's how desirous He is in order to connect with us. And it is this sanctuary image that 24:09 tells us that God is not the timeless God out there. He's not the God of the Greeks. The God 24:15 of scripture is not the God of the Greeks. He's not the God that the medieval church has set 24:20 up, the distant God. No. He has taken upon Himself our flesh. And the sanctuary language is 24:28 there, that He might dwell among us. Beautiful thought. Powerful. CHRIS: It is very powerful. And 24:33 as soon as you said that, I was thinking of John 3:17. We often quote 3:16, but John 3:17: 24:47 CHRIS: It is the Greek word sozo, which is often translated "salvation" or "to be saved." 24:53 But then it's also translated "to be made well, to be healed." And I think about that word 24:59 "restored." You see, God sent the Son ultimately to restore that framework, that foundation 25:08 of the sanctuary, which the beauty of it is, is even though Jesus came to this earth, even 25:13 though Jesus died for our sins, the testimony of the scripture is, He rose again, and He rose 25:20 again and went to a specific place. The Bible said that He goes to the sanctuary where He 25:25 ministers on our behalf as our High Priest. PASTOR KARL: Absolutely. CHRIS: Now, 25:29 Pastor Karl, this is going to be a tough question to answer in just the few minutes that we 25:33 have left. If we reject the heavenly sanctuary, can we still be faithful to the scriptures? 25:39 PASTOR KARL: It's going to be hard, because everything that we've been building points us to 25:47 the fact that this is where God wants us to set our hopes. When everything earthly has been 25:52 destroyed, you know, where can we turn? And that time is quickly almost upon us. And so, 25:57 we really can't be. There's a story in First Kings chapter 12 and verse 28 that really talks 26:05 about this, that we're going to have to flesh out a little bit more. It's an amazing story 26:11 about after Solomon's death with Rehoboam and Jeroboam. And the implications of setting up the 26:18 two calves of gold, the implications for the authority of the Bible and for the 26:23 sanctuary are quite profound. And I'd like to take some time to flesh that out. CHRIS: We 26:29 will definitely do that. We're going to do that in our next show together. But as we end 26:32 today, what I wanted to be very clear and very important is, the bottom line is this: If we 26:39 reject the sanctuary, it directly will lead to the rejection of the scriptures and 26:47 the rejection of God. And we can actually see this. We can see this throughout time, as we have 26:56 gone to a time of relativism, where there is no absolute truth, the denial of the 27:04 sanctuary crumbles the foundations where no one is able to survive. But the hope we 27:11 have, as we demonstrated today, those foundations can be restored. They can be restored 27:19 as we place our faith and trust in God and His Word and turn ourselves to the sanctuary. 27:25 Pastor Karl, as we end today, would you pray for us? PASTOR KARL: Sure. Our Father in 27:31 heaven, Lord, we're thankful for the Biblical history of the past, because it shows us that 27:35 when the earthly sanctuary was trampled, Gods people were led to rebuild that earthly 27:40 sanctuary. And Lord, many of us wandered in the wilderness for many years, and the sanctuary 27:47 has been eclipsed. But now, our vision is open. We can see Christ as our High Priest in 27:52 that heavenly sanctuary. And I pray that each and every one of us may cast our helpless souls 27:57 upon Him, that He may grant us wisdom and grace and power in every time of need, is our 28:03 prayer in Christ's name, amen. CHRIS: Amen. 28:12 CHRIS: My dear friend, it is good news that the God of the universe desires personal 28:19 interaction with you. Today, I want to offer you our correspondence Bible school. 28:25 Through that correspondence school, you will be able to dive deep into a relationship with 28:31 Jesus. Here's the information you need to receive those Bible study lessons. 29:29 CHRIS: Karl, thank you so much for helping us understand that God wants a relationship with 29:34 each of us. PASTOR KARL: It's been great, Chris. CHRIS: My dear friends, I hope you have 29:38 found that hope in Jesus Christ. I hope you enjoyed today's program. I invite you to join us 29:45 again next week. Until then, remember, it is written: "Man shall not live by bread alone, 29:52 but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." |
Revised 2017-04-11