IIW-2016-25 --- THE
HOUSE ON THE ROCK #4
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IIW-2016-25 --- THE
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IIW-2016-25 --- THE
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IIW-2016-25 --- THE
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IIW-2016-25 --- THE
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IIW-2016-25 --- THE
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IIW-2016-25 --- THE
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IIW-2016-25 --- THE
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IIW-2016-25 --- THE
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>>Announcer: It has
stood the test of time.
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God's book, The Bible
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Still relevant in
today's complex world
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It Is Written
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Sharing messages of
hope around the world!
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CHRIS: You know, dear friends,
one of the things I enjoy, is I
enjoy a good pen. And recently,
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I was given a gift of a pen that
was made from the oak on the
York Minster, the York Minster,
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of course, in York, England.
There was a fire there many,
many years ago. And from those
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timbers, they've been able to
turn pens and make nice fountain
pens from them. But you know,
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this show's not about fountain
pens; it is about foundations.
And why is that important? Well,
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you see, when the York Minster,
a large cathedral, was built, it
was built with no foundation.
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How did they find that out?
Several years ago, the
architects who care for the
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maintenance of the facility
noticed that the walls on the
side began to bow out slightly.
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What was happening? As they
began to research, what they
found was that the York Minster,
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a large cathedral built out of
stone, had actually simply been
built upon the fallen timbers of
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the church that was there
before. There was no foundation
Now, those architects were able
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to save the York Minster. They
dug under it and they did what
architects and engineers do, and
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they put foundations in after
the fact. But foundations are
critical. And just as they are
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critical in building structures,
foundations in the spiritual
life are absolutely essential,
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as we weather the storms of
life. And so to help talk about
the foundations in the spiritual
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life, I have a guest with me.
He's been with us for several
shows now. Pastor Karl
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Tsatalbasidis. Pastor Karl,
welcome back to It Is Written
Canada. PASTOR KARL: Always good
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to be here in Toronto. CHRIS:
You know, Pastor Karl, I am
excited about what we've been
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studying. You know, this is an
area of expertise for you. You
spent 18 years of your life
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pastoring churches, then sensed
a call to go into the world of
teaching. You've spent some time
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working on a Ph.D. You're about
to wrap up your dissertation for
that Ph.D. You spent five years
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teaching at the collegiate
level. And you're studying about
the presence of God, and that
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leads directly to the sanctuary.
we've spent four shows now
looking at the sanctuary,
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looking at what is happening
with the sanctuary. And now, as
we enter into that time, we want
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to ask some questions, because
what we've seen is, number one,
there is a sanctuary, a real
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sanctuary in heaven. Number two,
God gave instructions for the
building of an earthly
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sanctuary, that we might learn
about Him through that earthly
structure. But when that earthly
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structure was destroyed, there
was the encouragement to turn to
the heavenly. PASTOR
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KARL: Mmhmm. CHRIS: We spent
time with this last show,
knowing and understanding that
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the sanctuary is really the
lens. And we used that
illustration of going to the eye
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doctor, when the eye doctor
says, "Number one, number two."
That one that brings with
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crystal clear clarity, the
sanctuary clarifies not just the
Bible, not just a relationship
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with Jesus, but really clarifies
life itself. Where we ended is,
we talked about how there's
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been a grand attack against the
sanctuary. Daniel 8, Revelation
13 predict that the sanctuary
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would be trampled underfoot
through the rise of philosophy.
And where we ended is, we were
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talking about, historically, we
just don't hear about the
sanctuary. So where I want to
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begin today, because we want to
talk about the hope, because I
asked you that question in our
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last question, "Is there any
hope?" And you said yes: the
restoration of the sanctuary.
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So here's the question I want to
begin with today: How can we
restore the sanctuary foundation
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in our own lives? And I
understand for us to understand
how we restore it in our own
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lives, maybe we should look at
scripture and see how, when that
paradigm, when that lens has
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been lost, how God has restored
His people to have the
foundation of the sanctuary. Do
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we have any examples? Can we go
somewhere to learn this? PASTOR
KARL: Yeah, sure, we spent some
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time in the book of Daniel, and
even in Daniel chapter 1, it
starts of course with
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Nebuchadnezzar coming in and
hauling off all the vessels of
the sanctuary to the house of
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his god. Well, eventually, you
know, Jeremiah had prophesied in
Jeremiah chapter 25 that God's
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people would remain there 70
years, and that afterwards, they
would come back. And when they
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came back, they ended up
rebuilding that sanctuary, which
was the centre of their life
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before. All of the books after
the Babylonian exile, like the
minor prophets there, they all
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talked about it, like Haggai and
Zachariah and Malachi
especially. And then you have
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the historical books of Ezra and
Nehemiah, which talk about God's
people leaving Babylon and
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coming back towards Jerusalem,
because they realized that this
was part of the plan of God.
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And I think, as we look back on
that history, that Biblical
history, it was a microcosm of
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what would happen also to God's
people, like during the Dark
Ages, when the little horn
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would, through its philosophical
thinking, obscure our vision of
that heavenly sanctuary, eclipse
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it, if you will, and there would
also be a restoration on a much
larger scale. So we can look
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back to immediate Biblical
history and say, "After the
exile, there are so many books,
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especially Haggai and Zechariah
and Malachi which talk about the
fact that this sanctuary needed
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to be restored." And that's what
gave them their hope, that's
what gave them their sense of
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belonging, that's what gave them
principles about worship, and
just about everything else.
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CHRIS: And you know, we see this
early on with God's people.
God's people go into. they are
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taken into captivity in Egypt.
They're there for 400 years. And
through that 400 years,
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undoubtedly, they lost sight of
their relationship with God, how
they relate to God. How does God
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restore. and I'm going to
introduce - and you may want to
expand on this - how does God
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restore this in His people when
that image, that character, has
been lost? PASTOR KARL: Yes,
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that's a very good question. How
does He restore that? As we
begin to behold Him, that's how
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it begins to happen. But what
has often happened is that
tradition and philosophy have
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been obscuring our view of Him.
And so we're beholding Him
through not the right lenses,
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through maybe lens one instead
of lens two, you know, when you
go to the optometrist. And
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because of that, our estimate of
His character is not what it
should be. So the sanctuary,
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then, helps us to refocus our
vision as to Who God is. And I
believe we're going to spend
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more time on this in the future
regarding the character of God
in the great controversy. But
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I'm going to go to a text in
Romans chapter 12 verses 1 and 2
here, where I think you can see
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some sanctuary language being
applied in a personal way.
CHRIS: Alright, that sounds
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good. PASTOR KARL: Towards you
and I. You know, at the centre
of that sanctuary, in the Most
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Holy Place, was the presence of
God. And the presence of God is
where the throne is located in
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heaven. And there you have the
ark of the covenant. And the Ten
Commandments would sit
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underneath that. So God and the
commandments there are in that
heavenly sense, and they were
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duplicated also in the earthly.
And in Romans chapter 12, along
with that image in your mind, is
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the whole image of the
sacrificial system and how the
lambs were offered. And they had
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to be without spot and without
blemish. And in Romans 12:1, it
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says: PASTOR KARL: Actually,
that phrase "your reasonable
service" could better be
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translated as "an act of
worship." The Greek word is
latria which means "an act of
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service" or "an act of worship."
And so, here we are, it's
borrowing from the sanctuary
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imagery about us being a living
sacrifice, which is what Christ
was. And so the sanctuary points
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us to Christ; He is the Lamb of
God that takes away the sin of
the world. And it also actually
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helps us to calibrate our view
of Him, especially on the cross,
when He blended together justice
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and mercy. I mean, what a
problem that God had. How was He
going to be just and yet forgive
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us at the same time? Well, it
took the Son of God in order to
be able to do that. And when we
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behold His character, when we
behold Him through those lenses,
then we begin to emulate that
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character in our lives. CHRIS:
Mmhmm. This is a very powerful.
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because what we're seeing here -
and again, it stands in direct
opposition to the philosophical
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influences that have pervaded,
frankly, have pervaded many
churches and has pervaded
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society in general - and that
is, this idea that God doesn't
want to interact with us, that
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God is out to get us. But
rather, the Biblical view
through the lens, the framework,
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the foundation of the sanctuary,
is that God wants personal
interaction. And what we see is
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- and we've
already read Exodus 25:8:
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CHRIS: And it's actually very
interesting, for those that are
watching, for those that are
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listening, that have not studied
the sanctuary; the wilderness
sanctuary was set up at the very
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centre of the encampment of
Israel. And so the sanctuary was
set up at centre, and then all
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of the different tribes of
Israel were set up around it,
demonstrating God's desire to be
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central in our lives, His desire
to be right in the midst of us.
The temple itself, the temple,
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the permanent structure built in
Jerusalem, was built right at
the centre of the town. But what
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we are seeing is that the
sanctuary shows us a lens, shows
us a foundation, a framework, of
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where God, where heaven and
earth are integrated, where
there is this. too often, when I
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hear people talk, they talk
about heaven out there, we're
here, and it's really a deist
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point of view that God kind of
created the earth, like a little
top, set it on a spin, and He's
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off there somewhere, and we're
down here. But the sanctuary
changes that, changes that lens,
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that understanding entirely, and
we see this intimate integration
between heaven and earth. What
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kind of Bible verses do we have
to help see this integration
where God actually not only
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wants to be a part of our lives,
but is in fact a part of our
lives, and how does the
00:14:10.88\00:14:16.05
sanctuary teach us that? PASTOR
KARL: Chris, let's go back to
exodus chapter 20. And that's
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the chapter on the Ten
Commandments, of course. And
most of us will read that and
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say, "Well, okay, it says God
spoke all these words." And it
was surprising to me, when I was
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digging a little deeper, that
the scriptures actually pointed
out that God's voice came not
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just from earth, but from
heaven. And after having read
the chapter so many times, I was
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incredulous and wondering how I
could have missed it. So as you
look at Exodus chapter 20,
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obviously, it wraps up in verse
17, and then you have the
people's reaction. And then in
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verse 22 of Exodus 20, it says:
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PASTOR KARL: Very surprising.
And Deuteronomy 4:36, it also
makes it clear there. Now,
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Deuteronomy chapter 5 is the Ten
Commandments given again, and
Deuteronomy 4 is the brief
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context before that. There's
some really excellent warning
there in verse 14 and 15. He
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says, "You what? Take heed, lest
you make any image, because on
that day, when I spoke the Ten
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commandments, you didn't see
anything; you only heard a
voice," and that's very
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significant, and we'll begin to
capitalize on that later. But in
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verse 36, it says: PASTOR KARL:
And basically, Nehemiah 9:13
says the same - very similar -
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in recounting the Ten
Commandments, that God's voice
actually came from heaven. And
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so here we have God's voice
coming from heaven and from
earth at the same time, is what
00:16:08.96\00:16:15.24
the text is revealing. Now, I
need to go back to Greek
thinking in here and Platonic
00:16:15.34\00:16:19.61
philosophy for a moment, because
this absolutely shatters that
framework, because in Platonic
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thinking, there is no past,
present, and future. You know,
when you and I are talking right
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now, talking assumes times.
CHRIS: Right. PASTOR KARL: You
can't talk without a past, a
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present, and a future. But to
them, when God speaks, there is
no time. He speaks outside of
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time. Well, that obviously
changes the content of what God
is speaking. And they readily
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admit that, and they say things
like, "Well, the sanctuary where
God wanted to dwell among us is
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just an allegory. It's not
really real. It's just designed
to show us that there's an
00:16:54.88\00:16:59.21
interaction between God and us;
that's it." And so they'll begin
to allegorize that. So there's a
00:16:59.31\00:17:04.82
timeless content, and then
there's an earthly content. But
the Bible here is saying, "No,
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the content that God speaks from
heaven is exactly the same
content that He's speaking on
00:17:10.76\00:17:15.30
earth here as well." And this
bridges the gap, then, between
heaven and earth that has been
00:17:15.40\00:17:21.60
so eclipsed by the little horn.
We mentioned First Kings chapter
8 as well. And when Solomon was
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praying his dedicatory prayer as
the temple was set up, he said:
Hear thou in heaven. And when
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thou hearest, forgive. PASTOR
KARL: Now, here he is, he's
speaking to his people, he's
00:17:32.41\00:17:36.05
speaking to God up in heaven,
but he's addressing God as if
He's in heaven, and he's
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expecting God to hear from
heaven and to help him out when
his people are in trouble. You
00:17:40.62\00:17:46.06
know, there may be many viewers
today that are in trouble. And
Solomon, knowing the heart of
00:17:46.16\00:17:50.17
man and knowing that we're so
quick to stray from God, brings
up so many scenarios, and he
00:17:50.27\00:17:55.37
says, "Hey, if your people are
caught sinning and doing this
and that, then remember, Lord,
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when they come back and confess
their sins, to hear from heaven
and to forgive." I want to go
00:18:00.34\00:18:05.81
to the book of Revelation just
to kind of tie in this close
communication between heaven and
00:18:05.91\00:18:10.49
earth as well. CHRIS: That
sounds good. PASTOR KARL: So
let's go to Revelation. And in
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Revelation chapter 1 verse 13,
John sees Jesus as the Son of
man. In verse 12, he sees Him in
00:18:15.02\00:18:24.37
the context of the seven golden
candlesticks. And then He's the
High Priest in verse 13. Now, in
00:18:24.47\00:18:30.67
verse 16, it says:
00:18:30.77\00:18:32.27
PASTOR KARL: In Revelation
chapters 2 and 3, there are
seven messages that Jesus
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speaks. And they all begin
introducing Him in some way. And
He's the One that is speaking.
00:19:01.27\00:19:07.84
But it says in
chapter 2 verse 1:
00:19:07.94\00:19:11.21
PASTOR KARL: That's, of course,
identifying Jesus as the
speaker. CHRIS: That's right.
00:19:21.12\00:19:23.96
PASTOR KARL: So this message is
actually coming from Christ, and
the context here is in that
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heavenly sanctuary where He is
among the seven golden
candlesticks. When you get to
00:19:29.20\00:19:33.40
the end of that message - and
this happens at the end of every
single message - like in verse
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7, it says:
00:19:38.64\00:19:39.64
PASTOR KARL: So the message that
Jesus originated, He sends to
the angel, to the leader,
00:19:51.42\00:19:57.19
perhaps to the elder of the
church in Ephesus and Smyrna and
the other churches. And as they
00:19:57.29\00:20:02.43
begin to relate that message to
the congregation, the end result
is that the Holy Spirit is
00:20:02.53\00:20:08.37
speaking not just to that
individual church, but to all
the churches. And so you have
00:20:08.47\00:20:14.34
this dynamic interaction of
Christ in the heavenly sanctuary
originating the message. He is
00:20:14.44\00:20:19.61
the Word of God Himself. He is
sending that message through
John. John is sending it then to
00:20:19.71\00:20:24.69
the angel, the representative of
all these seven churches. They
are speaking the message, and
00:20:24.79\00:20:30.06
the end result is that that's
what the Holy Spirit is saying
to all the churches. And I
00:20:30.16\00:20:35.43
could go also and talk about the
fact that many times throughout
the book of Revelation, you have
00:20:35.53\00:20:39.23
these angelic voices that are
speaking. And the angelic voices
are not just speaking by
00:20:39.33\00:20:44.37
themselves; they are using human
instruments in order to declare
their message, like in
00:20:44.47\00:20:49.48
Revelation chapter 14. CHRIS:
Okay. PASTOR KARL: And so it
says in Revelation 14:6:
00:20:49.58\00:20:56.08
PASTOR KARL: Well, it's phrased
as if angels are speaking, but
again, when you look at the
00:21:05.43\00:21:10.43
pattern of the seven churches,
the message is given to the
leaders of the churches. They
00:21:10.53\00:21:14.07
are the ones that are speaking
it. And here in Revelation, it's
almost as if the angels
00:21:14.17\00:21:18.51
themselves are speaking it when
you and I begin to proclaim that
everlasting gospel. So Christ is
00:21:18.61\00:21:25.51
speaking, the angels are
speaking as we speak God's
Words, and there's this dynamic
00:21:25.61\00:21:30.32
interaction going on, then,
between heaven and earth. CHRIS:
And you know, what's so
00:21:30.42\00:21:34.19
powerful about this, Karl, is
that the devil, in an effort to
separate us, wants people to
00:21:34.29\00:21:44.83
believe that God doesn't want to
have anything to do with us. In
fact, there are kind of two
00:21:44.93\00:21:52.34
polar opposites that are brought
up. First, is that God is so
holy, so out there, that we
00:21:52.44\00:22:01.65
cannot have any communication
with Him. PASTOR KARL: The
timeless God. CHRIS: The
00:22:01.75\00:22:06.32
timeless God. The second is, I
am so filthy, so worthless, that
I can't interact with the Most
00:22:06.42\00:22:14.86
Holy God. And what you're
talking about is that the
sanctuary provides a foundation
00:22:14.96\00:22:20.20
and a framework that God desires
interaction. Not only does He
desire interaction, but has
00:22:20.30\00:22:27.34
demonstrated that interaction
throughout time, throughout
space. And while it may be
00:22:27.44\00:22:35.48
difficult to understand, because
we're talking a lot about time
and space, and some people might
00:22:35.58\00:22:39.09
be, "Whoa, you know speaking of
the God Who was and is and is to
come, you know, the One Who
00:22:39.19\00:22:44.33
exists forever, and we're
talking about this idea of
timelessness," yet God doesn't
00:22:44.43\00:22:50.33
exist in timelessness; God has
intersected us. Well, He did
more than intersect us; He
00:22:50.43\00:22:57.17
created us in time, in space,
and wants to interact with us in
that time and in that space. And
00:22:57.27\00:23:06.35
that gives us tremendous hope,
and that's really what the
sanctuary is all about, is the
00:23:06.45\00:23:11.69
hope that He gives. PASTOR KARL:
And Chris, as you were talking,
I mean, my mind was
00:23:11.79\00:23:14.42
going to John chapter 1 verse
14, which is shrouded in
sanctuary imagery and language
00:23:14.52\00:23:20.06
as well. Now, notice, well,
I mean, look at the beginning:
00:23:20.16\00:23:26.20
PASTOR KARL: You mentioned
Exodus 25:8: Let them build me a
sanctuary, that I may dwell
00:23:52.19\00:23:56.23
among them. PASTOR KARL: And
here, you find the God of the
universe taking on human flesh.
00:23:56.33\00:24:03.20
That's how desirous He is in
order to connect with us. And it
is this sanctuary image that
00:24:03.30\00:24:09.41
tells us that God is not the
timeless God out there. He's not
the God of the Greeks. The God
00:24:09.51\00:24:15.72
of scripture is not the God of
the Greeks. He's not the God
that the medieval church has set
00:24:15.82\00:24:20.26
up, the distant God. No. He has
taken upon Himself our flesh.
And the sanctuary language is
00:24:20.36\00:24:28.40
there, that He might dwell among
us. Beautiful thought. Powerful.
CHRIS: It is very powerful. And
00:24:28.50\00:24:33.54
as soon as you said that, I was
thinking of John 3:17. We often
quote 3:16, but John 3:17:
00:24:33.64\00:24:40.84
CHRIS: It is the Greek word
sozo, which is often translated
"salvation" or "to be saved."
00:24:47.22\00:24:53.56
But then it's also translated
"to be made well, to be healed."
And I think about that word
00:24:53.66\00:24:58.99
"restored." You see, God sent
the Son ultimately to restore
that framework, that foundation
00:24:59.09\00:25:07.97
of the sanctuary, which the
beauty of it is, is even though
Jesus came to this earth, even
00:25:08.07\00:25:13.54
though Jesus died for our sins,
the testimony of the scripture
is, He rose again, and He rose
00:25:13.64\00:25:20.02
again and went to a specific
place. The Bible said that He
goes to the sanctuary where He
00:25:20.12\00:25:25.19
ministers on our behalf as our
High Priest. PASTOR KARL:
Absolutely. CHRIS: Now,
00:25:25.29\00:25:29.12
Pastor Karl, this is going to be
a tough question to answer in
just the few minutes that we
00:25:29.22\00:25:33.40
have left. If we reject the
heavenly sanctuary, can we still
be faithful to the scriptures?
00:25:33.50\00:25:39.50
PASTOR KARL: It's going to be
hard, because everything that
we've been building points us to
00:25:39.60\00:25:47.24
the fact that this is where God
wants us to set our hopes. When
everything earthly has been
00:25:47.34\00:25:52.45
destroyed, you know, where can
we turn? And that time is
quickly almost upon us. And so,
00:25:52.55\00:25:57.82
we really can't be. There's a
story in First Kings chapter 12
and verse 28 that really talks
00:25:57.92\00:26:05.63
about this, that we're going to
have to flesh out a little bit
more. It's an amazing story
00:26:05.73\00:26:11.33
about after Solomon's death with
Rehoboam and Jeroboam. And the
implications of setting up the
00:26:11.43\00:26:18.17
two calves of gold, the
implications for the authority
of the Bible and for the
00:26:18.27\00:26:23.71
sanctuary are quite profound.
And I'd like to take some time
to flesh that out. CHRIS: We
00:26:23.81\00:26:28.95
will definitely do that. We're
going to do that in our next
show together. But as we end
00:26:29.05\00:26:32.75
today, what I wanted to be very
clear and very important is, the
bottom line is this: If we
00:26:32.85\00:26:39.06
reject the sanctuary, it
directly will lead to the
rejection of the scriptures and
00:26:39.16\00:26:47.17
the rejection of God. And we can
actually see this. We can see
this throughout time, as we have
00:26:47.27\00:26:56.61
gone to a time of relativism,
where there is no absolute
truth, the denial of the
00:26:56.71\00:27:04.35
sanctuary crumbles the
foundations where no one is able
to survive. But the hope we
00:27:04.45\00:27:11.83
have, as we demonstrated today,
those foundations can be
restored. They can be restored
00:27:11.93\00:27:19.43
as we place our faith and trust
in God and His Word and turn
ourselves to the sanctuary.
00:27:19.53\00:27:25.64
Pastor Karl, as we end today,
would you pray for us? PASTOR
KARL: Sure. Our Father in
00:27:25.74\00:27:31.08
heaven, Lord, we're thankful for
the Biblical history of the
past, because it shows us that
00:27:31.18\00:27:35.15
when the earthly sanctuary was
trampled, Gods people were led
to rebuild that earthly
00:27:35.25\00:27:40.89
sanctuary. And Lord, many of us
wandered in the wilderness for
many years, and the sanctuary
00:27:40.99\00:27:47.13
has been eclipsed. But now, our
vision is open. We can see
Christ as our High Priest in
00:27:47.23\00:27:52.60
that heavenly sanctuary. And I
pray that each and every one of
us may cast our helpless souls
00:27:52.70\00:27:57.41
upon Him, that He may grant us
wisdom and grace and power in
every time of need, is our
00:27:57.51\00:28:03.71
prayer in Christ's
name, amen. CHRIS: Amen.
00:28:03.81\00:28:06.18
CHRIS: My dear friend, it is
good news that the God of the
universe desires personal
00:28:12.55\00:28:19.23
interaction with you. Today, I
want to offer you our
correspondence Bible school.
00:28:19.33\00:28:25.20
Through that correspondence
school, you will be able to dive
deep into a relationship with
00:28:25.30\00:28:31.77
Jesus. Here's the information
you need to receive those Bible
00:28:31.87\00:28:39.18
study lessons. CHRIS: Karl,
thank you so much for helping us
understand that God wants a
00:29:29.66\00:29:34.87
relationship with each of us.
PASTOR KARL: It's been great,
Chris. CHRIS: My dear friends, I
00:29:34.97\00:29:38.71
hope you have found that hope in
Jesus Christ. I hope you enjoyed
today's program. I invite you to
00:29:38.81\00:29:45.31
join us again next week. Until
then, remember, it is written:
"Man shall not live by bread
00:29:45.41\00:29:51.92
alone, but by every word that
proceeds from the mouth of God."
00:29:52.02\00:29:57.66