Participants: Chris Holland
Series Code: IIWC
Program Code: IIWC201621A
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00:01 IIW-2016-21 --- Designed with purpose-It's All About the Genes
00:07 IIW-2016-21 --- Designed with purpose-It's All About the Genes 00:15 IIW-2016-21 --- Designed with purpose-It's All About the Genes 00:20 IIW-2016-21 --- Designed with purpose-It's All About the Genes 00:26 IIW-2016-21 --- Designed with purpose-It's All About the Genes 00:33 IIW-2016-21 --- Designed with purpose-It's All About the Genes 00:39 IIW-2016-21 --- Designed with purpose-It's All About the Genes 00:43 IIW-2016-21 --- Designed with purpose-It's All About the Genes 00:48 IIW-2016-21 --- Designed with purpose-It's All About the Genes 00:51 IIW-2016-21 --- Designed with purpose-It's All About the Genes 01:31 It has stood the test of time. 01:34 God's book, The Bible 01:38 Still relevant in today's complex world 01:44 It Is Written 01:46 Sharing messages of hope around the world! 01:58 CHRIS: Thank you so much for choosing to watch It Is Written. We are in the third part of a 02:03 three-part series, "Designed with Purpose." Did you know that every cell starts out with long 02:14 strands of deoxyribonucleic acid? Now, we more commonly call this huge molecule DNA. It is 02:23 essential for life to exist, as it serves as kind of a chemical paper on which the plans for all 02:32 our proteins, as well as much of the other information necessary for our bodies to exist. That 02:39 information is divided into units called genes. And if that sounded confusing to you, here 02:49 to help us sort it all out and help us understand it and its implications for our faith is 02:57 Dr. Tim Standish. Dr. Standish, thank you so much for joining us. DR. STANDISH: Well, thank 03:02 you so much for having me, and I am excited to talk about genes. CHRIS: Yes. You know, Dr. 03:06 Standish, we've had a number of times together. we've actually known each other for quite 03:11 awhile. We met 20 years ago at Andrews University where you were an associate professor of 03:17 biology, and I was a student studying theology. And your career has taken you far and 03:25 wide in many different places. Before coming to Andrews, you were an associate professor of 03:29 biology at Union College there in Lincoln, Nebraska. You have a Ph.D. in environmental biology 03:36 and public policy; a master's of biology; and a bachelor's of science in zoology. And now 03:44 you're the senior scientist at the Geoscience Research Institute. And that sounded 03:51 really big and confusing, and so unravelling this confusion, before we unravel the DNA 03:58 confusion, let's kind of unravel that confusion that I talked about. What does all that mean? 04:03 What do you do, Dr. Standish? DR. STANDISH: You know, sometimes I don't think I know 04:09 what I do. But I listen to my wife, and then I know immediately. CHRIS: Yes, that's 04:14 a good thing. DR. STANDISH: Now, I work for the Geoscience Research Institute. And this is 04:19 an institute located in southern California. We're interested in how the Bible and the 04:26 information that's recorded in there, and science, interact with one another. Most of the 04:34 time, they're in complete agreement. Sometimes, there's some tension between the claims 04:40 of science and the record of Scripture. And that's where we think, "You know what? There's 04:46 something interesting to find out there." CHRIS: And so you spend a lot of time researching, 04:50 exploring these tensions, finding ways in which these tensions can either be 04:57 explained, or actually, maybe they're not even a tension, or maybe this tension is actually a 05:02 complementary and intentional tension. If somebody wanted to read more about the things that 05:08 the Geoscience Research Institute is doing, if someone wanted to read maybe some of the 05:12 research papers that you have written, where could they find that information? DR. 05:16 STANDISH: The best place to start would be at the Geoscience Research Institute website, 05:22 which is just GRISDA.org. CHRIS: Very good. So Dr. Standish, we opened the show 05:30 talking about DNA. So let's just begin very basically. What is DNA? DR. STANDISH: Well, DNA is 05:39 a molecule. So that means that it's a structure that's made up of lots of atoms all joined 05:45 together. Now, most molecules are very small relative to the scale of things that we deal 05:52 with. You can't see molecules typically with the naked eye. But DNA has two really 06:02 interesting properties, just on a global scale. First of all, it is really a big molecule. That 06:11 doesn't mean that you can necessarily see it with your naked eye. CHRIS: Okay. DR. 06:15 STANDISH: But it is very, very long. You have, in pretty much all of your cells, 46 06:25 chromosomes. And the DNA is a major component of those chromosomes. If you just took 06:32 the DNA from those chromosomes, so that's all 46 of them, and stretched it out straight, it 06:41 would be about six feet, a little over six feet, approximately two metres long. 06:48 So my DNA, if I just sort of lined it up, all those bits of DNA inside my cells, would be 06:56 about as tall as I am when I'm standing up. CHRIS: And just to make sure I understand 07:02 correctly, is it the DNA in all of your cells, or the DNA in just one cell that is about two 07:08 metres long? DR. STANDISH: That would be in one cell. CHRIS: And we have lots of cells throughout 07:14 our body. So you're talking, if you took all the DNA that's inside of us, you're talking 07:21 about something that's huge. DR. STANDISH: Oh, yes. You have something on the order of, you 07:26 know, approaching a trillion human cells in your body. And so yeah, there's a lot of DNA in 07:34 there, at least in terms of length. CHRIS: Wow, so you're talking about almost two 07:39 trillion metres of length in just one human body. This is a huge molecule. So let's talk a 07:48 little bit more about this DNA. So what does this DNA do for us? How is information encoded in 07:55 it? Let's talk about this DNA. DR. STANDISH: The information is probably the most interesting 08:01 thing about the DNA. I mean, the structure of DNA itself is very elegant and beautiful. 08:09 Everybody's seen their structure. It's that sort of double helical twisting 08:11 structure that you see showing; when people want to talk about science kind of things, they 08:16 frequently have a picture of DNA in there. And finding that structure was a very, very big 08:25 deal. In 1953, James Watson and Francis Crick, along with a couple of other people, but 08:32 they've been the big sort of movers and shakers with this. They published a paper that got 08:38 them this Nobel Prize. Interestingly enough, the paper itself is only about a page 08:42 long, but it reported this double helical structure. And that's very, very important. In 08:53 terms of recording the information or storing the information in there, you can 08:59 think of the DNA language as being spelled out in just the same way we spell out words 09:07 ourselves. CHRIS: Okay. DR. STANDISH: Just like letters of the alphabet. Instead of using 09:12 letters, it uses slightly different flat molecules that are attached to the. so what 09:22 sticks into the middle of that sort of twisted ladder structure, those are the parts 09:28 of the molecule that contain the information. And each one of those is like a different 09:34 letter. There are only four different letters in the DNA alphabet. CHRIS: Okay. DR. 09:39 STANDISH: So we symbolize them as A, T, G, and C. And I know when I first saw that, I 09:48 thought, "Wow, how can you spell very much using only that many letters?" CHRIS: And so, the key 09:57 to DNA is that it encodes information, holds information DR. STANDISH: And it's a very 10:06 good molecule for doing that. CHRIS: Yes. Why is it such a good molecule for doing that, 10:12 and how does it get the information? I mean, how does it get that information? DR. 10:17 STANDISH: Okay. Let's first talk just a little bit about why it's a really good molecule for 10:22 storing information. First of all, it's very stable. So it doesn't break very easily, it 10:31 doesn't change very easily. It can be broken and it can be changed, but it's pretty 10:40 amazing, for such a huge molecule. And because it's so stable, it actually stays around 10:47 for a long time. You can find DNA in samples of bone, let's say, that's thousands of years 10:54 old. CHRIS: Wow. DR. STANDISH: So we've been able to actually retrieve, for example, 11:01 DNA from mammoths; that's obviously quite old. It's kind of a cool thing. It lets us find 11:10 out stuff about the past and some information about those organisms back then. So that's 11:17 one of the great things about DNA. Another great thing about it is that it's double-stranded, 11:23 so it has these two strands that are twisted around each other. If you want to, you can unzip 11:32 those strands. Remember, they're held together by these molecules, parts of the 11:37 molecule, I should say, that are sticking into the middle. CHRIS: Right. DR. STANDISH: And 11:42 those are not physically joined together. They are held together by forces. And those forces are 11:49 pretty easily broken. So you can just sort of unzip the DNA. The great thing about that is that 11:58 both strands actually contain 100% of the information. So you were asking, where does the 12:05 information come from? What happens is, to make a new strand of DNA, you take an old strand 12:11 of DNA, you unzip it, and you synthesize the opposite strand on each of those original 12:19 strands, and you have a perfect copy. So that's another reason why it's a fabulous molecule for 12:26 storing information, because it can be passed from mother cells to daughter cells as cells 12:35 divide, so you can easily. it's easily copied. And obviously, then, the big ultimate question 12:45 is, where did that information come from in the first place? CHRIS: Yes. DR. STANDISH: Where 12:50 did it come from? And to answer that question, it's probably worth looking at the kind of 12:59 information that's actually stored in DNA. CHRIS: Yes. DR. STANDISH: Now, I should give you 13:04 a warning. We probably don't fully understand all of the information that's stored in 13:13 DNA. It seems that every few months, something comes out that is absolutely jaw-dropping when 13:24 it comes to that. But let's talk about a gene, because you can think of a gene as being 13:33 something like maybe a chapter in a book. I'm going to use different analogies here, 13:43 because they're a little bit easier to understand. But don't be angry with me if I switch 13:49 from one analogy to another analogy. We're trying to understand something that isn't 13:55 exactly like this, but it's close. CHRIS: For sure. DR. STANDISH: So if you've got a 13:59 long strand of DNA from one of your chromosomes, there will be these genes in there, and they 14:04 will be like, if the long strand is a book, then a gene might be a chapter. Now, there are a lot 14:09 of chapters in the book. It's a long book. Just to put it in perspective, those letters that 14:16 I mentioned that code the information, there are about three billion of them in the 14:21 human genome. And you have two copies of the human genome in most of the cells of your body. 14:29 So it's a pretty. there are a lot of letters in these chapters. CHRIS: Now, I just 14:38 want to make sure, because we're talking some big things here. Six billion, did I hear the word 14:44 right? DR. STANDISH: Six billion total. Three billion of these DNA letters in a complete copy 14:54 of the human genome. You got one copy from your mother, and you got another copy from your 15:01 father. So that's why you have two copies in every cell in your body. CHRIS: Fabulous. DR. 15:07 STANDISH: Oh, and that is a really important thing, by the way, because if, let's say there 15:13 was a problem with one of the genes that your father gave you, you have a backup copy from your 15:18 mother. So it's a very clever, redundant, and robust system. It's been thought through very 15:27 well. CHRIS: Yes. DR. STANDISH: God, Who created humans, and I believe, 15:32 ultimately put the information into the DNA for human beings, chose a really good material to 15:40 encode that information into, and a really good system for passing that down through the 15:47 generations so that we can survive and thrive in the world that we live in. But anyway, 15:53 getting back to genes. CHRIS: Yes. DR. STANDISH: I'll tell you an embarrassing story 15:57 about myself. When I was teaching at the university we were both at, one day, I stood 16:05 up in front of my molecular genetics class and gave a truly brilliant lecture on estimating 16:12 the number of genes that are in the human genome. We're big, complicated creatures, so you'd 16:19 expect that there'd be a lot of information that would need to be encoded in our DNA - and 16:24 there is. I used absolutely correct data and made what I think everybody would agree were 16:36 very reasonable assumptions and demonstrated to my class that there are about 125,000 genes 16:44 encoded into the DNA of a human being. But the next day, "The Human Genome"was published. So 16:56 that was the first time it was fully sequenced and that it was published. And I, of course, 17:05 immediately grabbed my copy of The Journal of Science where it was, and I read and I read and I 17:13 read, and I felt more and more foolish, because there are not 125,000 genes in the human 17:20 genome; there are only about 50,000 genes in the human genome. And yet, my logic had 17:27 been so good. Nobody really knew why there were so few genes. This was one of the big 17:33 surprises. Now, since that time, the number of genes has actually gone down further. There are, 17:39 you know, between 20 and 25,000 genes now, we think, in the human genome. How can this be? 17:47 We make so many more proteins than there are genes in our body. CHRIS: Yes. DR. 17:54 STANDISH: As it turns out, genes are not what we thought they were. We thought that a gene was 18:01 just the plan for one protein. So we thought there's one gene, one protein. But that's not the 18:10 way it works. In reality, each gene can make multiple proteins. Now, some genes only do make one 18:20 protein, but there are other genes that make a whole lot of them. CHRIS: Okay. DR. 18:25 STANDISH: And instead of being just sort of a simple string of information, the genes are more 18:33 like little computer programs. And there's all kinds of input that comes in via various 18:42 molecules that bind with the DNA and bind with each other and bind with other molecules, 18:49 particularly RNA, possibly. well, there's a whole lot of things that come together, and a 18:57 decision is made about whether the gene is going to make a protein or whether it isn't 19:06 going to do so. In addition to that, the genes will be talking with, basically, with other 19:15 genes, and that information is also being integrated. A gene might decide to make one version 19:22 of a protein, and at another time, because of other input, decide to make another version 19:28 of that gene. And I can give you a specific example, if you'd like. CHRIS: Please. DR. 19:34 STANDISH: There's a gene called PITX-2, and we won't worry about what that stands for. But PITX-2 19:43 has an interesting role in development. It helps to determine the shape of our face. 19:51 But it does some other things as well. Now, sometimes, that gene needs to make a protein that is 20:03 embedded into a cell membrane. And other times, it needs to make a very similar protein that 20:10 isn't embedded into a membrane. So it needs to make two kinds of proteins. It actually makes more 20:16 than two kinds of proteins. How does it do that? Well, the gene itself has segments of 20:25 information in it. Remember, they're sort of all lined up on this long string of DNA. And you 20:31 can take a segment - these are called exons - you can take a segment from here and a segment 20:37 from here and a segment from here and join those all together, and those are the 20:41 information for, let's say, the version that floats around inside the cell. CHRIS: Yes. DR. 20:48 STANDISH: Whereas if you take, you know, a slightly different combination of them, that's the 20:52 one, that's the code, then, for the protein that sticks into the cell membrane. It sounds so 21:00 technical and fabulous. The point is, genes are much more fantastic than we thought they 21:07 were. It's not just simple information; it's complex, integrated information. 21:18 CHRIS: And I don't want take too many leaps here, Dr. Standish, but if I hear what you're 21:25 saying, we have DNA, and within that DNA, we have genes, and genes are the chapters of the 21:33 book DNA, and those chapters, instead of necessarily. those chapters are written, but then 21:41 those chapters then help write other things - proteins. DR. STANDISH: Yes, I'm actually 21:47 mixing a metaphor here. CHRIS: Okay. DR. STANDISH Yeah. I said they're kind of 21:51 like chapters, but they're also kind of like a computer program. They're like a dynamic chapter. 21:59 They're like. and that's why they're not just a passive kind of thing like a book that 22:06 doesn't change; they are interacting with the environment, they're taking 22:11 information, they're integrating information, and then they're using that to make the right 22:15 kind of protein. So it's like a little computer. CHRIS: And this little computer, what it 22:22 sounds like, as you're talking, is not something that could exist or function in partial 22:29 pieces. DR. STANDISH: It seems like doing things in bits and pieces would be an unlikely way 22:40 of getting this kind of system, because it's not just a matter of getting one bit of 22:49 information right; it's a matter of getting several bits of information correct, but also, 22:58 the information about when to use that information, and the whole mechanism for making that 23:05 decision. CHRIS: And so, it seems like, once again, Dr. Standish, we are looking at 23:14 something that points to a plan, that points to design. DR. STANDISH: In our normal 23:24 experience, we know that computer programs are probably the closest analogy that we can 23:33 make to genes at this particular point. We know where they come from. We've got literally many 23:41 thousands, probably millions of examples now of the source of this kind of information. It's 23:50 engineers, human beings. Computer programs don't come about by random number 23:57 generators. Random number generators themselves don't come about by random number 24:01 generators. These are engineered systems. And so where did the information come from? If I look 24:10 at a computer, I say, "Oh, that information came from computer engineers, software engineers, 24:17 and so on." Why would I come to a different conclusion about quite similar kinds of systems 24:26 that we find inside the cells of every living thing that we know of? CHRIS: And so if I hear what 24:34 you're saying, Dr. Standish, what you're saying is, is that as we look at DNA, as we look at 24:40 genes, the possibility or probability that these genes just came together by random 24:50 chance. DR. STANDISH: Something unguided. CHRIS: . something unguided, what is the 24:56 probability that that's the case? DR. STANDISH: In my opinion, it's zero. Now, you 25:03 could probably figure out a probability using various assumptions, and I've seen 25:08 people try to do this sort of thing. But that's not the way science really works. You know, 25:15 science is about seeing patterns, things that occur repeatedly, and saying, "Ah-ha, 25:25 that's the way things work." When we look at where information like the information 25:34 that we see in genes comes from, when we look at that, we can see that with absolutely 100%, you 25:46 know, of the time, it comes from intelligent minds. It never comes from any other source. 25:53 CHRIS: And so when we look at DNA, once again, we see a plan and a Planner; a design and a 26:03 Designer. And so, as we are kind of wrapping up here, Dr. Standish, let me just ask the 26:11 question as straightforward as I can: Did God write the DNA into every cell in our body? DR. 26:20 STANDISH: I believe that that original information was written by God, just as much as I 26:27 believe, by the way, that God wrote the Ten Commandments in the tables of stone. It's no 26:33 different. He is the Source, the Ultimate Source of that information. Now, it has been 26:39 passed down through many generations, obviously. But I believe that the ultimate source 26:45 of that information was God Himself. CHRIS: And what a fascinating conclusion to this 26:53 series, "Designed with Purpose," to talk about DNA, the very building blocks of who we are, 27:03 show us the actual fingerprints, so to speak, of God, that each of us was made with a purpose, 27:16 planned by the Master Planner, Jesus Christ Himself. Dr. Standish, thank you so much. 27:24 Would you be willing to pray for us as we end our program today? DR. STANDISH: Yes. Dear Father 27:30 in heaven, I thank You for all that You did, all that You planned, so that living things 27:38 can exist. I thank You that part of that plan was also a plan of salvation for each one of us. I 27:48 thank You for coming down, dying on this earth, so that we can be saved. And my prayer is that 27:54 each of us will seek to know You as our Creator and our Redeemer. I pray this in Jesus' name, 28:02 amen. CHRIS: Amen. 28:10 CHRIS: Dr. Standish, how exciting it is to know that God's very fingerprints are on 28:17 each and every one of our cells through our DNA. You know, today we want to offer our viewers the 28:24 DVD King of Creation. Tell us a little something about it. DR. STANDISH: We've talked about 28:29 really technical stuff, but sometimes it's great to just be still and know that God is God. 28:36 King of Creation is beautiful cinematography, beautiful music, and beautiful selections from 28:44 God's Word, all put together into what we call a devotional DVD. CHRIS: That is wonderful. 28:52 Friend, if you would like to receive today's offer, here's the information you need. 29:38 CHRIS: Dr. Standish, thank you so much for joining us today. DR. STANDISH: Thanks for having 29:41 me. CHRIS: My dear friend, thank you for watching. And if you want to learn more about our 29:48 wonderful Creator, join us again next week. Until then, remember, it is written: "Man shall not 29:55 live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." |
Revised 2017-03-08