Participants: Chris Holland
Series Code: IIWC
Program Code: IIWC201610A
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00:00 IIW --- WITHOUT COMPROMISE
00:06 IIW --- WITHOUT COMPROMISE 00:12 IIW --- WITHOUT COMPROMISE 00:17 IIW --- WITHOUT COMPROMISE 00:22 IIW --- WITHOUT COMPROMISE 00:28 IIW --- WITHOUT COMPROMISE 00:34 IIW --- WITHOUT COMPROMISE 00:38 IIW --- WITHOUT COMPROMISE 00:43 IIW --- WITHOUT COMPROMISE 00:47 IIW --- WITHOUT COMPROMISE 00:51 IIW --- WITHOUT COMPROMISE 01:31 >>Announcer: It has stood the test of time. 01:34 God's book, The Bible 01:38 Still relevant in today's complex world. 01:43 It Is Written. 01:45 Sharing messages of hope around the world. 01:58 CHRIS: Dear friends, thank you so much for choosing to watch It Is Written. You know, one 02:03 compromise that has been suggested between creationism and Darwinism is something 02:10 called theistic evolution. So here's a question: Why not compromise? It would seem to 02:17 make sense to try to merge science and the Bible. Doesn't it make sense? Wouldn't it just 02:23 help us pastors and scientists to just get along nicely and compromise? You know, to help 02:29 answer these questions and sort this all out, I'm joined by Dr. Tim Standish. Dr. Standish, 02:36 thank you for joining us again. DR. STANDISH: Well, thank you for having me again. CHRIS: You 02:41 know, Dr. Standish, we've talked about in previous shows where you're from and what you do. But 02:46 you are the senior scientist for the Geoscience Research Institute. And so maybe just 02:52 briefly tell us, what does the Geoscience Research Institute do? DR. STANDISH: Well, the 02:56 Geoscience Research Institute is an institute that's located. it's in a building in southern 03:02 California. But we are a group of scholars who are interested in the interface between science 03:10 and faith. What kind of compromises might be possible as we seek harmony between these 03:19 two different ways of knowing in our lives? What's the correct way of viewing them? And so 03:32 that's sort of the mission that we have in seeking. But we travel all over the world. Now 03:39 I'm in Canada; a few weeks ago, I was in England. I teach classes in Africa and also in 03:46 Asia at various universities. So obviously, we teach classes, we also maintain active research 03:55 programs. Sometimes we get very tired. CHRIS: I would imagine. It sounds like you are doing 04:00 quite a bit. And in fact, you have a website that is full of resources where people can look 04:06 at some of the research you're doing and some of the different events that are happening around 04:11 the world. Where might someone find that info? DR. STANDISH: Well, that's at 04:14 GRISDA.org. So Grisda.org is the URL for it. CHRIS: Alright. So, Dr. Standish, it sounds like you 04:24 might be the perfect individual here to have this discussion. And we've had a number of 04:28 previous discussions on the issue of origins. And if you have happened to miss any of our 04:37 shows on origins, you can go to our YouTube channel, YouTube.com/iiwCanada, and there 04:44 you can find a number of conversations that Dr. Standish and I have had together. But 04:50 Dr. Standish, we have the Biblical account of origins; we have Darwinian evolution; why 04:56 not just marry those together? Can we just not compromise and marry those two together? DR. 05:00 STANDISH: Well, there are very good reasons not to. And I would put it this way: Really, what's 05:07 going on in much of this discussion has to do with simply a wrong understanding of what 05:17 the questions are. Frequently, we talk about creation versus evolution. And we think about 05:30 things in those terms. So we're looking for a compromise between creationism, which is a belief, 05:42 and evolution, which is science. And under those circumstances, I mean, who's not going to go with 05:51 science? Because you know, somebody's beliefs should be influenced. You know, this is 05:57 sort of the way that people think about these things, commonly; or, alternatively, 06:02 they say, "Well, we reject science and we're going with faith." Really, when we're 06:08 talking about these issues, we're talking about creationism and Darwinism, two belief 06:16 systems. Two beliefs. So that way, you are comparing apples with apples as opposed to apples 06:24 with oranges. Evolution, in fact, can be scientific. It depends very much on your 06:35 definitions and so on. It doesn't mean that it's right to be scientific. Whereas Darwinism 06:41 is a philosophical, it's a religious system, basically Now, when you have two very 06:49 different religious systems, you don't get compromise between them that is going to make 06:58 believers on either side particularly happy. Now, theistic evolution is basically 07:07 the idea that God used the process of Darwinian evolution to produce the organisms that we 07:18 see around us, and particularly, human beings. CHRIS: And so, just to kind of put it in some 07:24 of the terms that you and I have used previously - and you threw out a term there real quick - so 07:29 theistic evolution is kind of the attempt, in simplicity's sake, of marrying two belief 07:37 systems of creationism and Darwinism, and out comes theistic evolution? DR. 07:45 STANDISH: Theistic evolution. CHRIS: And we've used these terms "plan" and "Planner," 07:49 "design," "Designer." And so theistic evolution says there is a Designer that has set forth a 07:59 plan, but that plan is.? DR. STANDISH: Is achieved through this Darwinian mechanism. Now, I 08:06 want to be careful about it, because in reality, when you are discussing these things with 08:14 people who are advocates of some of these positions, what you find out is that getting a nice, 08:21 general definition is very hard to do. Sometimes it reminds me of The Sound of Music. "How do 08:30 you solve a problem like Maria? How do you catch a cloud and pin it down?" Trying to pin down the 08:39 exact meaning can be quite difficult in conversations, so it's important, if we are 08:50 talking about these things with specific individuals, that we understand what it is they 08:53 actually do believe, because we might argue something that's completely irrelevant to their 08:59 belief system. So it is a little bit of a catch-all thing, but definitely, you have God 09:04 involved and the process of Darwinian evolution. Those two things are pretty much core to 09:11 theistic evolution. CHRIS: Now, and I'm going to ask you an odd question, because some people 09:17 might say I'm advocating theistic evolution. But is there evidence that actually supports 09:25 the idea of theistic evolution? DR. STANDISH: It depends on who you ask. But seeing as you're 09:29 asking me, my answer is no. And this is possibly the most profound problem that I have 09:34 with theistic evolution. It is not Biblical, and it certainly isn't scientific. So why would 09:42 anyone go with it? It just. it's kind of a, in my mind, one of those compromises that doesn't 09:57 work for anybody. And yet, for some reason or another, it is still reasonably popular. Now, 10:04 that may be because some people have figured out a way of formulating things that kind of 10:08 work for them. But from my personal perspective, I don't see the evidence on. from either 10:18 source - science or the Bible - to really justify this strange belief. CHRIS: So let's unpack 10:29 that just a little bit, and then we're going to get into - because there's actually a very 10:33 major religious figure that talks about evolution, and we want to talk a little bit about 10:37 that - but let me just unpack that slightly. And again, we've done a lot of shows that would 10:42 help someone understand why you've just said what you've said. But maybe just to unpack 10:47 it slightly, you said that theistic evolution is neither Biblical nor is it scientific. 10:56 So let's take those one at a time. Why would you say theistic evolution, first and foremost, 11:02 is not scientific? DR. STANDISH: Because it invokes a God, but a God Who commonly, His 11:16 action is not detectable in some way. It's a very common aspect of theistic evolution, or belief 11:25 in theistic evolution, that the actions of God cannot be detected in His creation. So 11:32 while He may be active, sometimes people say, "Well, it's in the quantum uncertainty 11:39 that we have with atoms," or something like that. "God kind of hides Himself." Well, if 11:47 God's divine action is not observable, science is about observation, so how can this 11:55 have anything to do with science? It's about sort of. it makes about as much sense to me 12:01 as invoking a fairy every now and again to explain things, but the fairy can do nothing. 12:05 CHRIS: Hmm. Now, you also then said, it is also not Biblical. And again, someone can go and 12:15 watch our shows and see thoroughly why that is. But again, in simplicity, why would 12:19 you say theistic evolution is not Biblical, or does not fit with Biblical Christianity? DR. 12:26 STANDISH: This is actually really big. First of all, we obviously have the creation 12:34 account in Scripture that is reiterated multiple times. Jesus Christ Himself talks about Adam, 12:42 the first man, and you know, marriage between the first man and the first woman. There's not 12:49 a difference in the New Testament or Old Testament when it comes to the creation. It's 12:58 very specific that God acted in a certain way, and He is the cause of all things. In fact, if 13:09 you look at the Bible, it consistently says that the reason to worship God is because 13:17 He's the Creator, not because He's the Being Who steps back and just lets things unfold. He 13:27 is an active God. There is divine action. CHRIS: Yes. DR. STANDISH: Now, there are 13:30 profound theological issues that theistic evolution raises. And for me as a Christian, probably 13:39 the most important of those has to do with Jesus Christ. What exactly was Jesus doing on the 13:50 cross? Well, the Bible lays it out. He is dying for my sins. God our Creator valued us so 14:02 much that He was willing to come down, become part of our creation, and experience the 14:07 death that we deserve to win us, and in my place. Well, in the Biblical creation account, God 14:19 created things very good. And then human beings chose a different plan. Now, the result 14:29 of that different plan was precisely what God had said it would be: death. So death enters 14:37 the creation as a result of sin. When we depart from the Life-giver, then life just isn't 14:44 going to last forever. CHRIS: That is. DR. STANDISH: Now, how does Jesus' 14:51 death on the cross to save me from the ultimate death, how does that make sense if there 15:02 was death before sin? And yet, death is central, an essential component of the Darwinian 15:11 mechanism. You have to be able to get rid of the weak and the old; and you know, and the 15:19 strong, the fit are the ones that survive and pass on their genetic information to new 15:28 generations. So things, organisms, have to go extinct, and death has to have occurred. 15:34 And if you look at the Darwinian account of things, then you know, you and I are the product 15:43 of literally millions, possibly billions, of organisms, possibly trillions of organisms, dying 15:53 before we reach this kind of point in evolutionary history where we exist. CHRIS: Now, this 16:03 is a profound thing. So kind of summarizing some of the things you've said: First issue why 16:07 this is not Biblical is, number one, the Biblical account of creation either is or it is not. 16:15 We either take it for what it is, or we have to throw it out. And if we throw it out, there 16:20 are implications of that. And in the It Is Written program, we've dealt with the reliability of 16:28 the Bible and its history. Number two is the issue of death and sin. You know, Romans 6:23 16:37 says: The wages of sin is death. CHRIS: And so a fundamental problem with 16:42 theistic evolution is going to be, you have death entering before sin, which would make the 16:48 evolutionary processes impossible because it requires death. And thirdly, which you 16:56 are alluding to is, I would say, almost an ethical implication, and that is, the Bible says that 17:03 God is love, that God wants to impart life, yet He would be using a process that demands 17:14 death to get to an eventual creation. DR. STANDISH: Why, if God is all-powerful, why would 17:27 He possibly choose a mechanism that involves just slaughter on an unimaginable scale to 17:40 produce, you know, His creation? It's. how can God be love and choose that? You know, the funny 17:54 thing about theistic evolution is that sometimes, people have seen it as a way of distancing 18:01 God from the problem of evil. You know, if God kind of let this mechanism kind of work 18:08 things out, and He was sort of, stepped back and just let it happen, somehow or other, the 18:14 thinking is, "Well, He's not fully responsible, then, for the evil, the suffering and death 18:22 that we see in nature." But you know, in my opinion, it just turns Him into something awful. 18:32 He has the power to do anything, but He chooses to let death and suffering be the engine for 18:43 producing the organisms that He wants in the end. CHRIS: And you used, I think, a profound a word 18:50 that we can kind of gloss over, but I want to just pause there for a minute. You said He 18:55 chooses. You know, because Psalm 33:6-9, but in particular, verse 9, it speaks of the creation, 19:02 and it says: 19:09 And you used that word "choose." Clearly, the Bible says God has the power to speak things into 19:14 existence. But if theistic evolution were true, it would mean that God chose to use a 19:24 process that required death, which doesn't make any sense, because in the book of First 19:30 Corinthians, it calls death the enemy. The book of Revelation says that God will one day put 19:37 to death death. And it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Now, Dr. Standish, we 19:44 could spend a lot of time. This is an area that actually is, I feel, a great deal that we need 19:52 to spend some time on. But I do want to spend just a few moments. You know, one of the 19:58 world's major - and in fact, some would argue, the world's most major religious figure - is 20:05 the pope. And some people say that the Pope supports evolution. Now, I want to ask 20:15 you the question, is that true? And if it is true, how does he reconcile this issue of death 20:23 before sin? DR. STANDISH: I have not had a conversation with the Pope, so I want to be 20:28 careful here. I can only look at his public statements about these things. And I would say 20:35 that, you know, the Pope speaks very carefully much of the time. So recently, for example, I read 20:46 a speech, the text of a speech that he gave to the Pontifical Academy where he did mention 20:55 some things about the origins thing. In my opinion, those statements were actually taken a 21:02 little bit out of context. Now, sometimes people use words in multiple ways, and you know, you 21:11 can sort of go all over the place with that. But my observation has been that the 21:16 Catholic Church maintains a position where either believers can believe in the Biblical 21:25 creation - and in fact, there is at least one Catholic organization that I know of 21:31 that's official and so on that supports the Biblical six-day creation within thousands of 21:41 years rather than millions or billions of years - so that position does exist in the 21:49 Catholic Church. But in addition to that, we see that the Catholic Church allows belief in 21:57 something like theistic evolution. CHRIS: Okay. DR. STANDISH: And so the question 22:01 is, how can the Catholics, the Catholics who have crucifixes, you know, everywhere to remind 22:06 us of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ - and to their credit, I think, you know; that 22:16 is obviously a central component of all Christian faith - how can they reconcile the problem of 22:27 death before sin with Jesus dying on the cross? How can that demonstrate God's grace and love 22:35 and achieve the objective of saving us ourselves from death? To do it, you have to understand 22:45 that the Catholic Church, like many other Christian churches, embraces the idea of an immortal 22:51 soul. And this is really brought together in quite an elegant way in an encyclical 23:05 that was written by Pope Pius XII back in 1950. I have a quote from it here. It's a little bit 23:13 convoluted. You know, this is very careful language. It's almost like a legal document. 23:17 But let me read it to you: 23:56 So he's saying, "It's fine for Catholics to believe that the 24:02 human body came from pre-existing matter, or whatever. We can explore that." 24:07 He's not taking a position; he's just saying we can explore that. And then he sort of tells why: 24:22 So the idea is this: All of that death that you see in the fossil record, okay, that 24:28 evolutionists believe is showing the evolutionary trajectory unfolding - in fact, it doesn't 24:33 - but that all of that death is different from the death that you get when God comes and puts 24:43 an immortal soul into a human and they become a human being at that particular point. So God 24:50 uses the process of evolution, then, in this particular scheme, to produce the human body, but 24:56 there is no soul there. God puts the immortal soul in, and then death is a completely different 25:03 thing. See, death before God did that was just the body wearing out and dying or being killed or 25:10 whatever. After God put the soul in, death is the separation of body and soul. And that's the 25:16 death, you see, in this way of thinking, that Jesus was addressing on the cross. 25:23 CHRIS: And we could spend. in fact, we spend a whole series of shows. And to our viewer, you 25:29 can go to our YouTube channel, YouTube.com/iiwCanada. Watch our series 25:38 "Is Heaven for Real?" and there, we talk about this. But this has far-reaching 25:41 implications, because the Bible is quite clear that man was made of the dust of the ground. God 25:45 breathed into him the breath of life, and then he became a living soul. He does not have an 25:51 immortal soul, but is a living soul. Paul writing to Timothy is very clear: only God is 25:59 immortal. And so this issue of origins is far-reaching because it actually goes right to the 26:07 very core of the essence of what and who a human being is in God's eyes. DR. STANDISH: It 26:16 touches right on many other doctrines of the Christian faith. If we change the issue. 26:25 our understanding of origins, then all of a sudden, if we're going to remain Christians, we 26:32 have to have something like this separate body and soul idea, something like an immortal soul. 26:41 And then we have the problem of, what do you do with individuals who choose to reject God's love 26:50 and grace? And all of a sudden, you've got things like an eternal burning hell because 26:53 they're eternally punished, and it really has huge knock-on effects in many other areas. I 27:04 personally prefer the actual Biblical view of things. It's much, much more attractive, and 27:11 it makes an awful lot more sense. God is a God of love. Horrifyingly, those who reject 27:19 Him cannot live. But when they die, they're not put into some sort of eternal punishment. God, 27:30 in His mercy, saves all who come to Him. CHRIS: Absolutely. DR. STANDISH: Those who separate 27:40 themselves from the only life-giving power in the universe will die, but that 27:44 means that they will cease to exist. CHRIS: Yes. And you know, Dr. Standish, we are 27:50 completely out of time. But it is very clear that a compromise of theistic evolution actually 27:59 brings upon Christianity a greater threat than simple Darwinian evolution because it 28:08 compromises the faith. Dr. Standish, thank you so much for joining us. Let's have prayer. 28:17 Heavenly Father, thank You so much that You are the Creator and we can believe that. We pray 28:23 this in Jesus' name, amen. DR. STANDISH: Amen. 28:31 CHRIS: Dear friend, would you like to know more about this Creator Who holds you in such 28:36 high esteem that He died for you? I want to offer you the DVD series Is Heaven for Real? 28:43 Here's the information you need to receive today's offer. 29:43 Dr. Standish, thank you so much for joining us today. DR. STANDISH: Thank you. 29:46 CHRIS: Friend, thank you for watching. I invite you to join us again next week. Until then, 29:52 remember, it is written: "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds 29:59 from the mouth of God." |
Revised 2017-01-11