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IIW --- WITHOUT COMPROMISE
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>>Announcer: It has
stood the test of time.
00:01:31.39\00:01:34.02
God's book, The Bible
00:01:34.89\00:01:37.43
Still relevant in
today's complex world.
00:01:38.43\00:01:41.93
It Is Written.
00:01:43.70\00:01:45.23
Sharing messages of
hope around the world.
00:01:45.90\00:01:49.80
CHRIS: Dear friends, thank you
so much for choosing to watch It
Is Written. You know, one
00:01:58.78\00:02:03.42
compromise that has been
suggested between creationism
and Darwinism is something
00:02:03.52\00:02:10.33
called theistic evolution. So
here's a question: Why not
compromise? It would seem to
00:02:10.43\00:02:17.40
make sense to try to merge
science and the Bible. Doesn't
it make sense? Wouldn't it just
00:02:17.50\00:02:23.04
help us pastors and scientists
to just get along nicely and
compromise? You know, to help
00:02:23.14\00:02:29.31
answer these questions and sort
this all out, I'm joined by Dr.
Tim Standish. Dr. Standish,
00:02:29.41\00:02:36.05
thank you for joining us again.
DR. STANDISH: Well, thank you
for having me again. CHRIS: You
00:02:36.15\00:02:40.99
know, Dr. Standish, we've talked
about in previous shows where
you're from and what you do. But
00:02:41.09\00:02:46.33
you are the senior scientist for
the Geoscience Research
Institute. And so maybe just
00:02:46.43\00:02:51.97
briefly tell us, what does the
Geoscience Research Institute
do? DR. STANDISH: Well, the
00:02:52.07\00:02:56.34
Geoscience Research Institute is
an institute that's located.
it's in a building in southern
00:02:56.44\00:03:02.64
California. But we are a group
of scholars who are interested
in the interface between science
00:03:02.74\00:03:10.65
and faith. What kind of
compromises might be possible as
we seek harmony between these
00:03:10.75\00:03:19.76
two different ways of knowing in
our lives? What's the correct
way of viewing them? And so
00:03:19.86\00:03:32.21
that's sort of the mission that
we have in seeking. But we
travel all over the world. Now
00:03:32.31\00:03:39.21
I'm in Canada; a few weeks ago,
I was in England. I teach
classes in Africa and also in
00:03:39.31\00:03:46.59
Asia at various universities. So
obviously, we teach classes, we
also maintain active research
00:03:46.69\00:03:55.10
programs. Sometimes we get very
tired. CHRIS: I would imagine.
It sounds like you are doing
00:03:55.20\00:04:00.47
quite a bit. And in fact, you
have a website that is full of
resources where people can look
00:04:00.57\00:04:06.01
at some of the research you're
doing and some of the different
events that are happening around
00:04:06.11\00:04:11.15
the world. Where might someone
find that info? DR. STANDISH:
00:04:11.25\00:04:14.75
Well, that's at GRISDA.org. So
Grisda.org is the URL for it.
CHRIS: Alright. So, Dr.
00:04:14.85\00:04:24.49
Standish, it sounds like you
might be the perfect individual
here to have this discussion.
00:04:24.59\00:04:28.20
And we've had a number of
previous discussions on the
issue of origins. And if you
00:04:28.30\00:04:36.97
have happened to miss any of our
shows on origins, you can go to
our YouTube channel,
00:04:37.07\00:04:44.21
YouTube.com/iiwCanada, and there
you can find a number of
conversations that Dr. Standish
00:04:44.31\00:04:50.22
and I have had together. But Dr.
Standish, we have the Biblical
account of origins; we have
00:04:50.32\00:04:55.96
Darwinian evolution; why not
just marry those together? Can
we just not compromise and marry
00:04:56.06\00:05:00.36
those two together? DR.
STANDISH: Well, there are very
good reasons not to. And I would
00:05:00.46\00:05:07.84
put it this way: Really, what's
going on in much of this
discussion has to do with simply
00:05:07.94\00:05:17.38
a wrong understanding of what
the questions are. Frequently,
we talk about creation versus
00:05:17.48\00:05:30.66
evolution. And we think about
things in those terms. So we're
looking for a compromise between
00:05:30.76\00:05:41.94
creationism, which is a belief,
and evolution, which is science.
And under those circumstances, I
00:05:42.04\00:05:51.48
mean, who's not going to go with
science? Because you know,
somebody's beliefs should be
00:05:51.58\00:05:56.99
influenced. You know, this is
sort of the way that people
think about these things,
00:05:57.09\00:06:02.52
commonly; or, alternatively,
they say, "Well, we reject
science and we're going with
00:06:02.62\00:06:08.43
faith." Really, when we're
talking about these issues,
we're talking about creationism
00:06:08.53\00:06:16.87
and Darwinism, two belief
systems. Two beliefs. So that
way, you are comparing apples
00:06:16.97\00:06:24.75
with apples as opposed to apples
with oranges. Evolution, in
fact, can be scientific. It
00:06:24.85\00:06:35.09
depends very much on your
definitions and so on. It
doesn't mean that it's right to
00:06:35.19\00:06:41.26
be scientific. Whereas Darwinism
is a philosophical, it's a
religious system, basically Now,
00:06:41.36\00:06:48.97
when you have two very different
religious systems, you don't get
compromise between them that is
00:06:49.07\00:06:58.71
going to make believers on
either side particularly happy.
Now, theistic evolution is
00:06:58.81\00:07:07.36
basically the idea that God used
the process of Darwinian
evolution to produce the
00:07:07.46\00:07:18.63
organisms that we see around us,
and particularly, human beings.
CHRIS: And so, just to kind of
00:07:18.73\00:07:24.07
put it in some of the terms that
you and I have used previously -
and you threw out a term there
00:07:24.17\00:07:29.74
real quick - so theistic
evolution is kind of the
attempt, in simplicity's sake,
00:07:29.84\00:07:37.72
of marrying two belief systems
of creationism and Darwinism,
and out comes theistic
00:07:37.82\00:07:45.66
evolution? DR. STANDISH:
Theistic evolution. CHRIS: And
we've used these terms "plan"
00:07:45.76\00:07:49.36
and "Planner," "design,"
"Designer." And so theistic
evolution says there is a
00:07:49.46\00:07:59.07
Designer that has set forth a
plan, but that plan is.? DR.
STANDISH: Is achieved through
00:07:59.17\00:08:06.21
this Darwinian mechanism. Now, I
want to be careful about it,
because in reality, when you are
00:08:06.31\00:08:14.69
discussing these things with
people who are advocates of some
of these positions, what you
00:08:14.79\00:08:21.70
find out is that getting a nice,
general definition is very hard
to do. Sometimes it reminds me
00:08:21.80\00:08:30.01
of The Sound of Music. "How do
you solve a problem like Maria?
How do you catch a cloud and pin
00:08:30.11\00:08:39.58
it down?" Trying to pin down the
exact meaning can be quite
difficult in conversations, so
00:08:39.68\00:08:50.09
it's important, if we are
talking about these things with
specific individuals, that we
00:08:50.19\00:08:53.06
understand what it is they
actually do believe, because we
might argue something that's
00:08:53.16\00:08:59.40
completely irrelevant to their
belief system. So it is a little
bit of a catch-all thing, but
00:08:59.50\00:09:04.81
definitely, you have God
involved and the process of
Darwinian evolution. Those two
00:09:04.91\00:09:11.71
things are pretty much core to
theistic evolution. CHRIS: Now,
and I'm going to ask you an odd
00:09:11.81\00:09:17.15
question, because some people
might say I'm advocating
theistic evolution. But is there
00:09:17.25\00:09:25.56
evidence that actually supports
the idea of theistic evolution?
DR. STANDISH: It depends on who
00:09:25.66\00:09:29.26
you ask. But seeing as you're
asking me, my answer is no. And
this is possibly the most
00:09:29.36\00:09:33.97
profound problem that I have
with theistic evolution. It is
not Biblical, and it certainly
00:09:34.07\00:09:42.51
isn't scientific. So why would
anyone go with it? It just. it's
kind of a, in my mind, one of
00:09:42.61\00:09:57.13
those compromises that doesn't
work for anybody. And yet, for
some reason or another, it is
00:09:57.23\00:10:04.43
still reasonably popular. Now,
that may be because some people
have figured out a way of
00:10:04.53\00:10:08.87
formulating things that kind of
work for them. But from my
personal perspective, I don't
00:10:08.97\00:10:18.78
see the evidence on. from either
source - science or the Bible -
to really justify this strange
00:10:18.88\00:10:29.89
belief. CHRIS: So let's unpack
that just a little bit, and then
we're going to get into -
00:10:29.99\00:10:33.80
because there's actually a very
major religious figure that
talks about evolution, and we
00:10:33.90\00:10:37.63
want to talk a little bit about
that - but let me just unpack
that slightly. And again, we've
00:10:37.73\00:10:42.64
done a lot of shows that would
help someone understand why
you've just said what you've
00:10:42.74\00:10:47.24
said. But maybe just to unpack
it slightly, you said that
theistic evolution is neither
00:10:47.34\00:10:56.79
Biblical nor is it scientific.
So let's take those one at a
time. Why would you say theistic
00:10:56.89\00:11:02.22
evolution, first and foremost,
is not scientific? DR. STANDISH:
Because it invokes a God, but a
00:11:02.32\00:11:16.54
God Who commonly, His action is
not detectable in some way. It's
a very common aspect of theistic
00:11:16.64\00:11:25.55
evolution, or belief in theistic
evolution, that the actions of
God cannot be detected in His
00:11:25.65\00:11:32.02
creation. So while He may be
active, sometimes people say,
"Well, it's in the quantum
00:11:32.12\00:11:38.96
uncertainty that we have with
atoms," or something like that.
"God kind of hides Himself."
00:11:39.06\00:11:47.27
Well, if God's divine action is
not observable, science is about
observation, so how can this
00:11:47.37\00:11:55.04
have anything to do with
science? It's about sort of. it
makes about as much sense to me
00:11:55.14\00:12:01.28
as invoking a fairy every now
and again to explain things, but
the fairy can do nothing.
00:12:01.38\00:12:05.55
CHRIS: Hmm. Now, you also then
said, it is also not Biblical.
And again, someone can go and
00:12:05.65\00:12:14.93
watch our shows and see
thoroughly why that is. But
again, in simplicity, why would
00:12:15.03\00:12:19.27
you say theistic evolution is
not Biblical, or does not fit
with Biblical Christianity? DR.
00:12:19.37\00:12:26.81
STANDISH: This is actually
really big. First of all, we
obviously have the creation
00:12:26.91\00:12:33.95
account in Scripture that is
reiterated multiple times. Jesus
Christ Himself talks about Adam,
00:12:34.05\00:12:41.99
the first man, and you know,
marriage between the first man
and the first woman. There's not
00:12:42.09\00:12:48.93
a difference in the New
Testament or Old Testament when
it comes to the creation. It's
00:12:49.03\00:12:58.17
very specific that God acted in
a certain way, and He is the
cause of all things. In fact, if
00:12:58.27\00:13:08.98
you look at the Bible, it
consistently says that the
reason to worship God is because
00:13:09.08\00:13:17.63
He's the Creator, not because
He's the Being Who steps back
and just lets things unfold. He
00:13:17.73\00:13:27.17
is an active God. There is
divine action. CHRIS: Yes. DR.
STANDISH: Now, there are
00:13:27.27\00:13:30.84
profound theological issues that
theistic evolution raises. And
for me as a Christian, probably
00:13:30.94\00:13:39.85
the most important of those has
to do with Jesus Christ. What
exactly was Jesus doing on the
00:13:39.95\00:13:50.09
cross? Well, the Bible lays it
out. He is dying for my sins.
God our Creator valued us so
00:13:50.19\00:14:02.00
much that He was willing to come
down, become part of our
creation, and experience the
00:14:02.10\00:14:07.51
death that we deserve to win us,
and in my place. Well, in the
Biblical creation account, God
00:14:07.61\00:14:19.45
created things very good. And
then human beings chose a
different plan. Now, the result
00:14:19.55\00:14:29.70
of that different plan was
precisely what God had said it
would be: death. So death enters
00:14:29.80\00:14:37.24
the creation as a result of sin.
When we depart from the
Life-giver, then life just isn't
00:14:37.34\00:14:44.88
going to last forever. CHRIS:
That is. DR. STANDISH: Now, how
00:14:44.98\00:14:51.39
does Jesus' death on the cross
to save me from the ultimate
death, how does that make sense
00:14:51.49\00:15:02.53
if there was death before sin?
And yet, death is central, an
essential component of the
00:15:02.63\00:15:11.41
Darwinian mechanism. You have to
be able to get rid of the weak
and the old; and you know, and
00:15:11.51\00:15:19.35
the strong, the fit are the ones
that survive and pass on their
genetic information to new
00:15:19.45\00:15:27.96
generations. So things,
organisms, have to go extinct,
and death has to have occurred.
00:15:28.06\00:15:34.86
And if you look at the Darwinian
account of things, then you
know, you and I are the product
00:15:34.96\00:15:43.30
of literally millions, possibly
billions, of organisms, possibly
trillions of organisms, dying
00:15:43.41\00:15:53.58
before we reach this kind of
point in evolutionary history
where we exist. CHRIS: Now, this
00:15:53.68\00:16:02.96
is a profound thing. So kind of
summarizing some of the things
you've said: First issue why
00:16:03.06\00:16:07.13
this is not Biblical is, number
one, the Biblical account of
creation either is or it is not.
00:16:07.23\00:16:15.44
We either take it for what it
is, or we have to throw it out.
And if we throw it out, there
00:16:15.54\00:16:20.64
are implications of that. And in
the It Is Written program, we've
dealt with the reliability of
00:16:20.74\00:16:27.92
the Bible and its history.
Number two is the issue of death
and sin. You know, Romans 6:23
00:16:28.02\00:16:37.53
says: The wages of sin is death.
CHRIS: And so a fundamental
00:16:37.63\00:16:42.10
problem with theistic evolution
is going to be, you have death
entering before sin, which would
00:16:42.20\00:16:48.80
make the evolutionary processes
impossible because it requires
death. And thirdly, which you
00:16:48.90\00:16:56.51
are alluding to is, I would say,
almost an ethical implication,
and that is, the Bible says that
00:16:56.61\00:17:03.69
God is love, that God wants to
impart life, yet He would be
using a process that demands
00:17:03.79\00:17:14.03
death to get to an eventual
creation. DR. STANDISH: Why, if
God is all-powerful, why would
00:17:14.13\00:17:27.21
He possibly choose a mechanism
that involves just slaughter on
an unimaginable scale to
00:17:27.31\00:17:40.29
produce, you know, His creation?
It's. how can God be love and
choose that? You know, the funny
00:17:40.39\00:17:54.10
thing about theistic evolution
is that sometimes, people have
seen it as a way of distancing
00:17:54.20\00:18:01.08
God from the problem of evil.
You know, if God kind of let
this mechanism kind of work
00:18:01.18\00:18:08.02
things out, and He was sort of,
stepped back and just let it
happen, somehow or other, the
00:18:08.12\00:18:14.89
thinking is, "Well, He's not
fully responsible, then, for the
evil, the suffering and death
00:18:14.99\00:18:22.86
that we see in nature." But you
know, in my opinion, it just
turns Him into something awful.
00:18:22.96\00:18:31.94
He has the power to do anything,
but He chooses to let death and
suffering be the engine for
00:18:32.04\00:18:43.02
producing the organisms that He
wants in the end. CHRIS: And you
used, I think, a profound a word
00:18:43.12\00:18:50.19
that we can kind of gloss over,
but I want to just pause there
for a minute. You said He
00:18:50.29\00:18:55.70
chooses. You know, because Psalm
33:6-9, but in particular, verse
9, it speaks of the creation,
00:18:55.80\00:19:02.50
and it says:
00:19:02.60\00:19:03.57
And you used that word "choose."
Clearly, the Bible says God has
the power to speak things into
00:19:09.18\00:19:14.65
existence. But if theistic
evolution were true, it would
mean that God chose to use a
00:19:14.75\00:19:24.19
process that required death,
which doesn't make any sense,
because in the book of First
00:19:24.29\00:19:30.43
Corinthians, it calls death the
enemy. The book of Revelation
says that God will one day put
00:19:30.53\00:19:37.24
to death death. And it just
doesn't make a whole lot of
sense. Now, Dr. Standish, we
00:19:37.34\00:19:44.78
could spend a lot of time. This
is an area that actually is, I
feel, a great deal that we need
00:19:44.88\00:19:52.32
to spend some time on. But I do
want to spend just a few
moments. You know, one of the
00:19:52.42\00:19:58.26
world's major - and in fact,
some would argue, the world's
most major religious figure - is
00:19:58.36\00:20:05.47
the pope. And some people say
that the Pope supports
evolution. Now, I want to ask
00:20:05.57\00:20:15.14
you the question, is that true?
And if it is true, how does he
reconcile this issue of death
00:20:15.24\00:20:23.32
before sin? DR. STANDISH: I have
not had a conversation with the
Pope, so I want to be
00:20:23.42\00:20:28.49
careful here. I can only look at
his public statements about
these things. And I would say
00:20:28.59\00:20:35.53
that, you know, the Pope speaks
very carefully much of the time.
So recently, for example, I read
00:20:35.63\00:20:46.71
a speech, the text of a speech
that he gave to the Pontifical
Academy where he did mention
00:20:46.81\00:20:55.85
some things about the origins
thing. In my opinion, those
statements were actually taken a
00:20:55.95\00:21:02.19
little bit out of context. Now,
sometimes people use words in
multiple ways, and you know, you
00:21:02.29\00:21:10.90
can sort of go all over the
place with that. But my
observation has been that the
00:21:11.00\00:21:16.44
Catholic Church maintains a
position where either believers
can believe in the Biblical
00:21:16.54\00:21:25.65
creation - and in fact, there is
at least one Catholic
organization that I know of
00:21:25.75\00:21:31.62
that's official and so on that
supports the Biblical six-day
creation within thousands of
00:21:31.72\00:21:41.53
years rather than millions or
billions of years - so that
position does exist in the
00:21:41.63\00:21:49.57
Catholic Church. But in addition
to that, we see that the
Catholic Church allows belief in
00:21:49.67\00:21:57.65
something like theistic
evolution. CHRIS: Okay. DR.
STANDISH: And so the question
00:21:57.75\00:22:01.38
is, how can the Catholics, the
Catholics who have crucifixes,
you know, everywhere to remind
00:22:01.48\00:22:06.89
us of the death and resurrection
of Jesus Christ - and to their
credit, I think, you know; that
00:22:06.99\00:22:16.83
is obviously a central component
of all Christian faith - how can
they reconcile the problem of
00:22:16.93\00:22:26.91
death before sin with Jesus
dying on the cross? How can that
demonstrate God's grace and love
00:22:27.01\00:22:35.18
and achieve the objective of
saving us ourselves from death?
To do it, you have to understand
00:22:35.28\00:22:45.69
that the Catholic Church, like
many other Christian churches,
embraces the idea of an immortal
00:22:45.79\00:22:51.77
soul. And this is really brought
together in quite an elegant way
00:22:51.87\00:23:05.05
in an encyclical that was
written by Pope Pius XII back in
1950. I have a quote from it
00:23:05.15\00:23:13.29
here. It's a little bit
convoluted. You know, this is
very careful language. It's
00:23:13.39\00:23:17.46
almost like a legal document.
But let me read it to you:
00:23:17.56\00:23:20.03
So he's saying, "It's fine for
Catholics to believe that the
00:23:56.87\00:24:02.84
human body came from
pre-existing matter, or
whatever. We can explore that."
00:24:02.94\00:24:07.61
He's not taking a position; he's
just saying we can explore that.
And then he sort of tells why:
00:24:07.71\00:24:13.52
So the idea is this: All of that
death that you see in the fossil
00:24:22.16\00:24:28.10
record, okay, that evolutionists
believe is showing the
evolutionary trajectory
00:24:28.20\00:24:33.64
unfolding - in fact, it doesn't
- but that all of that death is
different from the death that
00:24:33.74\00:24:43.38
you get when God comes and puts
an immortal soul into a human
and they become a human being at
00:24:43.48\00:24:50.49
that particular point. So God
uses the process of evolution,
then, in this particular scheme,
00:24:50.59\00:24:56.62
to produce the human body, but
there is no soul there. God puts
the immortal soul in, and then
00:24:56.73\00:25:03.00
death is a completely different
thing. See, death before God did
that was just the body wearing
00:25:03.10\00:25:09.90
out and dying or being killed or
whatever. After God put the soul
in, death is the separation of
00:25:10.01\00:25:16.81
body and soul. And that's the
death, you see, in this way of
thinking, that Jesus was
00:25:16.91\00:25:23.75
addressing on the cross. CHRIS:
And we could spend. in fact, we
spend a whole series of shows.
00:25:23.85\00:25:29.79
And to our viewer, you can go to
our YouTube channel,
YouTube.com/iiwCanada. Watch our
00:25:29.89\00:25:38.33
series "Is Heaven for Real?" and
there, we talk about this. But
this has far-reaching
00:25:38.43\00:25:41.57
implications, because the Bible
is quite clear that man was made
of the dust of the ground. God
00:25:41.67\00:25:45.67
breathed into him the breath of
life, and then he became a
living soul. He does not have an
00:25:45.77\00:25:51.15
immortal soul, but is a living
soul. Paul writing to Timothy is
very clear: only God is
00:25:51.25\00:25:59.45
immortal. And so this issue of
origins is far-reaching because
it actually goes right to the
00:25:59.55\00:26:07.76
very core of the essence of what
and who a human being is in
God's eyes. DR. STANDISH: It
00:26:07.86\00:26:16.04
touches right on many other
doctrines of the Christian
faith. If we change the issue.
00:26:16.14\00:26:25.25
our understanding of origins,
then all of a sudden, if we're
going to remain Christians, we
00:26:25.35\00:26:32.52
have to have something like this
separate body and soul idea,
something like an immortal soul.
00:26:32.62\00:26:41.70
And then we have the problem of,
what do you do with individuals
who choose to reject God's love
00:26:41.80\00:26:50.01
and grace? And all of a sudden,
you've got things like an
eternal burning hell because
00:26:50.11\00:26:53.84
they're eternally punished, and
it really has huge knock-on
effects in many other areas. I
00:26:53.94\00:27:04.69
personally prefer the actual
Biblical view of things. It's
much, much more attractive, and
00:27:04.79\00:27:11.63
it makes an awful lot more
sense. God is a God of love.
Horrifyingly, those who reject
00:27:11.73\00:27:19.47
Him cannot live. But when they
die, they're not put into some
sort of eternal punishment. God,
00:27:19.57\00:27:30.28
in His mercy, saves all who come
to Him. CHRIS: Absolutely. DR.
STANDISH: Those who separate
00:27:30.38\00:27:40.06
themselves from the only
life-giving power in the
universe will die, but that
00:27:40.16\00:27:44.53
means that they will cease to
exist. CHRIS: Yes. And you know,
Dr. Standish, we are
00:27:44.63\00:27:50.43
completely out of time. But it
is very clear that a compromise
of theistic evolution actually
00:27:50.53\00:27:59.11
brings upon Christianity a
greater threat than simple
Darwinian evolution because it
00:27:59.21\00:28:08.02
compromises the faith. Dr.
Standish, thank you so much for
joining us. Let's have prayer.
00:28:08.12\00:28:16.99
Heavenly Father, thank You so
much that You are the Creator
and we can believe that. We pray
00:28:17.09\00:28:22.96
this in Jesus' name,
amen. DR. STANDISH: Amen.
00:28:23.06\00:28:27.30
CHRIS: Dear friend, would you
like to know more about this
Creator Who holds you in such
00:28:31.54\00:28:36.18
high esteem that He died for
you? I want to offer you the DVD
series Is Heaven for Real?
00:28:36.28\00:28:43.32
Here's the information you
need to receive today's offer.
00:28:43.42\00:28:49.09
Dr. Standish, thank you so much
for joining us today. DR.
STANDISH: Thank you.
00:29:43.35\00:29:46.45
CHRIS: Friend, thank you for
watching. I invite you to join
us again next week. Until then,
00:29:46.55\00:29:52.15
remember, it is written: "Man
shall not live by bread alone,
but by every word that proceeds
00:29:52.25\00:29:59.66
from the mouth of God."
00:29:59.76\00:30:01.46