Participants: Chris Holland
Series Code: IIWC
Program Code: IIWC201609A
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00:01 IIW-DARWINISM ON TRIAL
00:06 IIW-DARWINISM ON TRIAL 00:13 IIW-DARWINISM ON TRIAL 00:20 IIW-DARWINISM ON TRIAL 00:27 IIW-DARWINISM ON TRIAL 00:34 IIW-DARWINISM ON TRIAL 00:38 IIW-DARWINISM ON TRIAL 00:43 IIW-DARWINISM ON TRIAL 00:47 IIW-DARWINISM ON TRIAL 00:50 IIW-DARWINISM ON TRIAL 01:31 >>Announcer: It has stood the test of time. 01:35 God's book, The Bible 01:38 Still relevant in today's complex world. 01:44 It Is Written. 01:46 Sharing messages of hope around the world. 01:58 CHRIS: Thank you for joining It Is Written. You know, we've had many discussions in the past 02:04 about Biblical origins. We've discussed some scientific reasons that the Biblical reason 02:12 of origins is attractive. Now, if you've missed any of those shows on origins, you can go to 02:20 our YouTube channel, www.youtube.com/iiwCanada. But I will tell you, when you look at 02:30 origins, one of the often-overlooked areas of understandings in the issue of 02:37 origins makes an immense practical difference in our lives. What is that issue? That 02:44 issue is ethics. To help us in our discussion about ethics, I have with me Dr. Tim Standish. 02:52 Dr. Standish, thank you so much for joining us again. DR. STANDISH: Oh, I'm glad to be 02:57 back. CHRIS: You know, Dr. Standish, you are the senior scientist of the Geoscience 03:02 Research Institute. You hold a Bachelor's degree in zoology, a Master's degree in biology, a 03:08 Ph.D. in environmental biology. And that's a lot of big words. Maybe in simple, tell us, what 03:17 do you do, Dr. Standish, on a daily basis? DR. STANDISH: Well, by trade, I'm a 03:21 molecular geneticist. So I'm very interested in DNA and the information that's encoded into 03:30 that DNA and how that information is retrieved and used by the cells in our bodies 03:37 - and obviously, the cells that make up any other organism - to actually make that organism. 03:45 It's a profound mystery, and yet, we're finding out little things as we go along. And every 03:52 time we find out something new, all of a sudden, we discover that things are much more 04:00 profound than we'd anticipated. So it's an exciting area of science to work in. CHRIS: Yes. 04:06 Now, why is it that you're working for the Geoscience Research Institute? And maybe 04:13 tell us a little bit about what the Geoscience Research Institute does. DR. 04:17 STANDISH: Well, the Geoscience Research Institute is a group of scholars - we're all Ph.D. 04:23 scientists - who are interested in the relationship between the claims of science and what is 04:34 revealed in Scripture. Now, most of the time, there is no disagreement between these 04:40 things. Obviously, there are some areas where there are these kind of tensions between the 04:46 current claims of science and the clear statements or clear record of Scripture. So we're 04:54 interested in those areas of tension. What do we do with them as Christians? What do we do 04:59 with them as scientists? We kind of straddle that divide. And yeah, it makes for a very 05:08 interesting area, sometimes a somewhat controversial area, to work in. CHRIS: Now, if someone 05:14 was interested in this area and wanted to do a little more reading, find some resources, 05:19 where might they go to find more information about the Geoscience Research Institute and some of 05:24 the work that you've been doing? DR. STANDISH: Well, certainly, a good place to start would be our 05:27 website. And the URL is GRISDA.org, so Grisda, G-R-I-S-D-A, dot org. 05:38 CHRIS: Wonderful. Now, you and I have had a number of discussions about origins. And people can go 05:46 to our website or to our YouTube channel and see some of those discussions that - invigorating 05:52 discussions - that we've had. One of the issues when we talk about origins - and I talked 05:59 about that in the intro - that we have not discussed is the issue of ethics. So why don't we 06:06 just start real baseline right there? What is ethics? DR. STANDISH: Basically, ethics are 06:14 the principles, the system of morals, that we use to decide what's right and what's wrong; 06:22 what's righteous and what's unrighteous. CHRIS: Okay. So here's, then, the question: 06:28 You're a scientist, I'm a pastor; why are we having a discussion about ethics when it 06:35 comes to the issue of origins? DR. STANDISH: Well, because our understanding of origins makes a 06:42 huge difference in our decision-making about what's right and what's wrong. 06:47 Obviously, one of the foundational things that you have to establish if you are 06:53 developing a system of ethics is, what is a human being? Because if a human being is, 07:01 let's say, a worthless object, then killing a human being would not be a bad thing at all. If a 07:11 human being is an invaluable creation of God, then, well, you know, maybe human life has a 07:20 different value to it than, you know, other ways in which you can look at it. So there are 07:29 lots of implications just right there. CHRIS: And I think you've alluded to it just a 07:35 little bit there, but let's talk about that. What are the moral implications of accepting the 07:43 Biblical record of origins? DR. STANDISH: Number one, the Bible tells us that everything we see 07:52 is ultimately created by God - and this is very important - also sustained by God. God 08:02 sustains His creation. And so then we have to ask ourselves, "How should I treat this 08:09 creation? Should I be comfortable with the idea that we can go out and destroy the 08:18 environment in which we live? destroy other organisms for some short-term expediency for 08:29 myself?" So just in terms of how we treat the rest of the creation is a big, big question, 08:41 possibly one that we as Christians should struggle with a little bit more. Think about 08:45 it. The Bible is quite amazing. You know, it gives very specific instructions about how we should 08:52 treat other animals. It tells us that God cares about other creatures. It does not put, 09:02 however, those other creatures on the same footing as human beings. The Bible tells us that 09:11 human beings are different. We have been created in the image of God. It also tells us that 09:23 there's something special, then, about the relationship between men and women. You know, there's 09:33 one unique difference in the creation of human beings that you don't see with the other 09:41 organisms. CHRIS: Okay. DR. STANDISH: God formed Adam out of the dust. The Bible tells us, in 09:49 Genesis 2, that He formed all the other creatures out of the dust. God breathed the breath of 09:56 life into Adam. But if we look, particularly a few chapters into the book of Genesis, where it 10:06 starts talking about the flood and talking about other creatures with the breath of 10:12 life in them. So well, what is it that makes Adam different? CHRIS: Yes, so you've got me 10:21 wondering now. DR. STANDISH: Well, he's formed in the image of God. But think 10:25 about this: What about Eve? First of all, Adam got to observe the other creatures and 10:37 realize his need for a wife. The other creatures didn't get that. And then - and this is just 10:46 glorious - God creates Eve from Adam. Wow. That's different. Now, you're a pastor. I don't 10:59 know, you know, I'm a mere biologist. But I notice these differences. And that does have 11:07 powerful implications. The relationship between a man and a woman is not the same as the 11:14 relationship between a cow and a bull. There's a difference there. So when we start talking 11:20 about relationships between human beings, the creation account makes a huge difference. 11:28 CHRIS: That is powerful. And so, when we look at the moral implications of understanding 11:37 and accepting the Biblical account of origins, it has more than just the implication of an 11:44 intellectual ideology, but rather, it affects, putting it simply, how I live, how I treat 11:53 others. Because when you and I are talking, when you and I are interacting, you are a creature 12:02 created by God. When I interact with the environment around me - this environment, the plants, 12:11 the animals - are things created by a Creator that I ought to have an appreciation for. DR. 12:19 STANDISH: Oh, yes, yes. And you know, there's another area that I think we can dig into if we 12:30 actually get into what I would consider to be the most popular alternative view of things, 12:39 which is Darwinian evolution. You know, it becomes quite stark when you start comparing and 12:47 contrasting what's going on there. CHRIS: Yes. And I was just going to ask you about 12:52 that, because then, the glaring question is: If I accept something outside the Biblical 12:58 account of origins, Darwinian evolution is the most popular. Now, maybe just as kind of a 13:06 brief, very, very brief explanation of Darwinian evolution - which won't do it 13:13 justice, because volumes have been written - what is Darwinian evolution, in its simplest 13:21 explanation? DR. STANDISH: At its core, Darwinian evolution is a materialistic theory of 13:27 origins. So it's a theory that says there was no intervention from outside of nature when it 13:38 came to the production of all of the organisms that we see today CHRIS: And so, kind of standing 13:46 in distinction from the Biblical account: the Biblical account gives a plan with a Planner, or 13:55 a design with a Designer; Darwinian evolution, there is no plan, there is no design, there 14:04 is no planner, there is no designer; things just happen because that's the course of 14:06 things happening, in its simplicity. DR. STANDISH: Yes. Now, Charles Darwin himself, 14:11 remember, he was a trained theologian. He was a trained pastor. So he actually thought 14:18 about these things sometimes quite deeply and wrote about them as well. So he actually 14:25 does do a fair amount of comparing and contrasting himself. I've got a quote here 14:31 that I want to read to you. This is Charles Darwin writing, way back in 1838. So you'll remember 14:41 that he published his theory of evolution in a book called The Origin of Species. That book was 14:47 published in 1859. So 21 years before that, he was writing. And he wrote: 15:15 So Darwin, long, long, long before, actually, he started writing The Origin of Species, 15:23 had committed himself to some kind of evolutionary idea in which human beings came from 15:33 animals. And by the way, this was not unique to him at that particular time. It wasn't even 15:38 unique in his own family. His grandfather. Erasmus Darwin, believed the same thing and 15:44 actually wrote about it. He had apparently a family motto that said something like, "Everything 15:50 came from shells," which is kind of interesting. But you know, Darwin believed we came from 15:59 animals; we were not the creation of God. So morally, then, we're the same as the 16:08 other animals. CHRIS: And so, with that said, then, Dr. Standish, I mean, what is the 16:14 moral implication and what are some of the moral implications? DR. STANDISH: Well, you know, 16:21 I'm a mere biologist, so what I try to do is I try to go and read what people who are experts 16:27 in this area say. And I have a quote here from Peter Singer. Now, Peter Singer is a very 16:35 eminent ethicist. He's a Darwinian ethicist. And many people have heard of him because 16:44 he's been a champion of animal rights. And that obviously springs from his kind of system 16:55 of ethics. Human beings are not necessarily different from animals. So why would we treat 17:03 humans differently than we treat animals? So let me read this to you. He said, 17:31 He argues that animals and humans have the same moral status. And he is not alone in 17:40 doing that. James Rachels, another prominent commentator in this area, wrote: 18:06 So you know, this is not. I don't want to put words into these gentlemen's mouths, but 18:15 this is very, very profound, because if humans are the same as animals, then either animals 18:23 have all the same rights as human beings, or human beings have no special rights at all. 18:32 CHRIS: Yes, and I mean, beyond that, it would seem that not only we talk about the operation 18:41 of society - and society is governed by laws and regulations, and many of those 18:47 laws and regulations, at least in the United States and in Canada, many of those laws and 18:54 regulations actually find their roots in the Bible - but if we're saying that, I mean, the 19:00 implications of this are far-reaching, that not only do animals and human beings have 19:07 the same rights, so to speak, but then as human beings, we really don't need to operate 19:14 within a set of laws or regulations, because if we're no different than animals, then we 19:19 should just do as we desire. DR. STANDISH: That's right. If it's okay for animals, it must be 19:24 okay for human beings as well. Now, there are a number of areas where this has actually come 19:29 into quite stark focus in the last few years. One of them has to do with the question of human 19:39 rights. In this system of thinking, human rights don't really actually kind of exist, 19:48 because why would we have different rights than other organisms? CHRIS: Okay. DR. 19:54 STANDISH: So how do you justify, then, treating human beings differently than cows or frogs 20:01 or trees? What is developing is a system that. it's a utilitarian way of thinking 20:12 about things. Basically, the argument is, humans are special because we have special 20:18 cognitive abilities. We have special brains, and cows don't. So cows can't comprehend 20:26 suffering, let's say, in the same way that human beings can. Now, we have no real way of 20:33 knowing that, but this is sort of the way the thinking goes. So that sounds like it might work. 20:40 But what happens when you turn that on its ear a little bit? What happens if you have a human 20:46 being who is mentally impaired in some way? What these guys have done is they've separated 20:54 the concept of a human being, which is reasonably easy to identify - if it comes out of a 21:01 human mother, it's a human being - from a concept we call person-hood or something along 21:11 those lines. A person may have special rights, but a human does not. And then the argument goes, 21:20 if a person. when a human is born, they're a baby. They don't have the cognitive abilities of 21:30 a 20- or 30- or 50-year-old. So therefore, they don't have special rights. And in fact, it 21:38 has been advocated, even in major - at least, I'm thinking of one specific example, in a 21:48 major journal of medical ethics - it's been advocated that it's okay to kill babies, if they're 21:56 an inconvenience. CHRIS: Wow. DR. STANDISH: Because they have no special moral status. They 22:02 have not yet developed into persons. And of course, the concept of a person is something 22:09 that is decided by the person who decides it. There's no kind of sharp line there. What 22:20 happens when a person develops Alzheimer's disease? Are they still a person anymore? Or is it 22:27 okay to dispose of them? These are questions that are being seriously asked, reasoning from 22:36 the Darwinian perspective. CHRIS: Yes, and I just want to be clear, as maybe a viewer has 22:44 picked up our show in the middle. We are not advocating this; we are talking about the 22:47 implications of accepting Darwinian evolution. And the ethics of that is that 22:55 essentially, we take human beings, and human beings are not special, number one; but number 23:02 two, even within human beings, we are making the distinction that someone with cognitive 23:08 abilities is a person, and so they have special rights, but a human being by nature doesn't 23:14 have special rights, so someone that is. DR. STANDISH: There are no human rights. 23:19 CHRIS: There are no human rights. So someone that is mentally handicapped in some 23:22 way, someone who is possibly malformed, someone who develops Alzheimer's later in life, 23:30 they're not a person, and because they're not a person with whatever cognitive 23:36 abilities the individual testing cognitive abilities says is a cognitive person, they're not a 23:43 person and have zero rights. DR. STANDISH: Precisely. Now, contrast that with the Biblical 23:51 view of things. CHRIS: Yes. DR. STANDISH: And obviously, we can talk in sort of abstract terms 23:58 about being created in the image of God and all of those things, but as Christians, 24:02 Bible-believing Christians, we have a huge advantage, because the Creator of this world came 24:09 down and lived as a human being: Jesus Christ. So we can look at how Jesus valued those who were 24:21 considered to be of less value in the society that He operated in. CHRIS: Yeah, I mean, Dr. 24:29 Standish, you've got my mind just. I mean, I think about Jesus. I mean, Jesus addresses 24:35 the leper; Jesus addresses the crippled man; Jesus addresses a woman who has an issue of blood. 24:42 And then even beyond that, Jesus addresses someone who's dead. And so the implications of that 24:49 are far-reaching. DR. STANDISH: Oh, yes. The demoniacs. Think about that. 24:53 Jesus went across the Sea of Galilee to meet men who had lost their minds, and He restored 25:05 them. Here's another one. And this really touches my heart. Jesus, when people brought their 25:14 children to Him, how did His disciples react? They didn't think that the children were 25:20 worthy. CHRIS: That's right. DR. STANDISH: Because they, for better or for worse, were 25:27 thinking along similar lines. But Jesus said, you know, "Suffer the little children. 25:33 Come unto me." He didn't say, "Well, when they're old enough and they have the cognitive 25:40 abilities that make them persons, then I will take care of them." He, you know, was 25:50 there and ready to bless them and value them. The Bible, both the Old and New Testaments, 25:59 constantly call on the followers of the created God to, you know, help the needy, take care of the 26:11 vulnerable, and so on, not to devalue them or make some judgement about whether they're 26:17 persons and therefore they have value and rights versus, you know, being human, which doesn't 26:25 intrinsically have any rights. It's 100% in one direction: they're of infinite value. Jesus 26:31 Christ died for all human beings. CHRIS: You know, Dr. Standish, it's hard to believe 26:38 that we are out of time. But what a profound not just thought, but reality: to accept 26:45 an account of origins outside the Biblical account of origins has far-reaching effect, because 26:55 outside of it, there is no value to a human being, but within it, we value all human beings, which 27:04 is why we should feed the hungry, why we should reach out to the poor, why we should treat 27:11 one another with respect, even when we disagree. Because, as you pointed out, in God's eyes, 27:18 every last one of us is of infinite value in His eyes, such an infinite value, that He 27:29 actually came to this earth to die for us to make us a new creation. DR. STANDISH: Wow. 27:34 CHRIS: Amazing. Dr. Standish, let's pray together. Lord, we are so thankful that You made 27:41 us, and because You made us, we are infinite in value in Your eyes. We thank You so much, in 27:48 Jesus' name, amen. DR. STANDISH: Amen. 27:57 CHRIS: Dear friends, what a profound thought: the Master Designer, Jesus Christ, crafted 28:04 and made you with infinite value. You know, if you'd like to learn more about this Jesus 28:12 Who places infinite value on you, I'd like to offer you the Discover Bible guides. You'll be 28:20 drawn nearer to Him, learn more about Him. Here's the information you need to receive 28:25 today's offer. 29:22 CHRIS: Dr. Standish, I want to thank you so much for this profound discussion on ethics. 29:28 DR. STANDISH: You know, the bottom line is, in the Biblical view of things, humans are of 29:32 infinite value; in the Darwinian view, they are of questionable value. CHRIS: You know, dear 29:39 friends, I want to thank you so much for watching. And if you want to continue to learn more 29:44 about this God Who places infinite value on you, join us again next week. Until then, 29:49 remember, it is written: "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds 29:56 from the mouth of God." |
Revised 2017-01-11