IIW-DARWINISM ON TRIAL 00:00:01.06\00:00:04.90 IIW-DARWINISM ON TRIAL 00:00:06.20\00:00:12.77 IIW-DARWINISM ON TRIAL 00:00:13.27\00:00:19.48 IIW-DARWINISM ON TRIAL 00:00:20.02\00:00:27.16 IIW-DARWINISM ON TRIAL 00:00:27.69\00:00:34.30 IIW-DARWINISM ON TRIAL 00:00:34.83\00:00:37.77 IIW-DARWINISM ON TRIAL 00:00:38.27\00:00:42.74 IIW-DARWINISM ON TRIAL 00:00:43.20\00:00:46.71 IIW-DARWINISM ON TRIAL 00:00:47.21\00:00:50.01 IIW-DARWINISM ON TRIAL 00:00:50.51\00:00:54.35 >>Announcer: It has stood the test of time. 00:01:31.65\00:01:34.29 God's book, The Bible 00:01:35.22\00:01:37.69 Still relevant in today's complex world. 00:01:38.69\00:01:42.13 It Is Written. 00:01:44.67\00:01:45.67 Sharing messages of hope around the world. 00:01:46.33\00:01:50.41 CHRIS: Thank you for joining It Is Written. You know, we've had many discussions in the past 00:01:58.91\00:02:04.25 about Biblical origins. We've discussed some scientific reasons that the Biblical reason 00:02:04.35\00:02:12.19 of origins is attractive. Now, if you've missed any of those shows on origins, you can go to 00:02:12.29\00:02:19.90 our YouTube channel, www.youtube.com/iiwCanada. But I will tell you, when you look at 00:02:20.00\00:02:30.58 origins, one of the often-overlooked areas of understandings in the issue of 00:02:30.68\00:02:37.22 origins makes an immense practical difference in our lives. What is that issue? That 00:02:37.32\00:02:44.46 issue is ethics. To help us in our discussion about ethics, I have with me Dr. Tim Standish. 00:02:44.56\00:02:52.87 Dr. Standish, thank you so much for joining us again. DR. STANDISH: Oh, I'm glad to be 00:02:52.97\00:02:57.41 back. CHRIS: You know, Dr. Standish, you are the senior scientist of the Geoscience 00:02:57.51\00:03:02.64 Research Institute. You hold a Bachelor's degree in zoology, a Master's degree in biology, a 00:03:02.74\00:03:08.72 Ph.D. in environmental biology. And that's a lot of big words. Maybe in simple, tell us, what 00:03:08.82\00:03:17.23 do you do, Dr. Standish, on a daily basis? DR. STANDISH: Well, 00:03:17.33\00:03:21.06 by trade, I'm a molecular geneticist. So I'm very interested in DNA and the 00:03:21.16\00:03:30.04 information that's encoded into that DNA and how that information is retrieved and 00:03:30.14\00:03:37.35 used by the cells in our bodies - and obviously, the cells that make up any other organism - to 00:03:37.45\00:03:45.62 actually make that organism. It's a profound mystery, and yet, we're finding out little 00:03:45.72\00:03:52.59 things as we go along. And every time we find out something new, all of a sudden, we discover 00:03:52.69\00:04:00.04 that things are much more profound than we'd anticipated. So it's an exciting area of 00:04:00.14\00:04:06.74 science to work in. CHRIS: Yes. Now, why is it that you're working for the Geoscience 00:04:06.84\00:04:13.45 Research Institute? And maybe tell us a little bit about what the Geoscience Research 00:04:13.55\00:04:17.02 Institute does. DR. STANDISH: Well, the Geoscience Research Institute is a group of scholars 00:04:17.12\00:04:23.63 - we're all Ph.D. scientists - who are interested in the relationship between the claims 00:04:23.73\00:04:34.74 of science and what is revealed in Scripture. Now, most of the time, there is no disagreement 00:04:34.84\00:04:40.68 between these things. Obviously, there are some areas where there are these kind of tensions 00:04:40.78\00:04:46.41 between the current claims of science and the clear statements or clear record of Scripture. So 00:04:46.51\00:04:54.49 we're interested in those areas of tension. What do we do with them as Christians? What do we 00:04:54.59\00:04:59.33 do with them as scientists? We kind of straddle that divide. And yeah, it makes for a very 00:04:59.43\00:05:08.77 interesting area, sometimes a somewhat controversial area, to work in. CHRIS: Now, if someone 00:05:08.87\00:05:14.58 was interested in this area and wanted to do a little more reading, find some resources, 00:05:14.68\00:05:19.41 where might they go to find more information about the Geoscience Research Institute and some of 00:05:19.51\00:05:24.19 the work that you've been doing? DR. STANDISH: Well, certainly, a good place to start would be our 00:05:24.29\00:05:27.49 website. And the URL is GRISDA.org, so Grisda, G-R-I-S-D-A, dot org. 00:05:27.59\00:05:38.53 CHRIS: Wonderful. Now, you and I have had a number of discussions about origins. And people can go 00:05:38.63\00:05:46.54 to our website or to our YouTube channel and see some of those discussions that - invigorating 00:05:46.64\00:05:52.51 discussions - that we've had. One of the issues when we talk about origins - and I talked 00:05:52.61\00:05:59.29 about that in the intro - that we have not discussed is the issue of ethics. So why don't we 00:05:59.39\00:06:06.73 just start real baseline right there? What is ethics? DR. STANDISH: Basically, ethics are 00:06:06.83\00:06:13.94 the principles, the system of morals, that we use to decide what's right and what's wrong; 00:06:14.04\00:06:22.38 what's righteous and what's unrighteous. CHRIS: Okay. So here's, then, the question: 00:06:22.48\00:06:28.05 You're a scientist, I'm a pastor; why are we having a discussion about ethics when it 00:06:28.15\00:06:35.52 comes to the issue of origins? DR. STANDISH: Well, because our understanding of origins makes a 00:06:35.62\00:06:42.63 huge difference in our decision-making about what's right and what's wrong. 00:06:42.73\00:06:47.84 Obviously, one of the foundational things that you have to establish if you are 00:06:47.94\00:06:53.74 developing a system of ethics is, what is a human being? Because if a human being is, 00:06:53.84\00:07:01.32 let's say, a worthless object, then killing a human being would not be a bad thing at all. If a 00:07:01.42\00:07:11.03 human being is an invaluable creation of God, then, well, you know, maybe human life has a 00:07:11.13\00:07:20.77 different value to it than, you know, other ways in which you can look at it. So there are 00:07:20.87\00:07:29.08 lots of implications just right there. CHRIS: And I think you've alluded to it just a 00:07:29.18\00:07:35.45 little bit there, but let's talk about that. What are the moral implications of accepting the 00:07:35.55\00:07:43.16 Biblical record of origins? DR. STANDISH: Number one, the Bible tells us that everything we see 00:07:43.26\00:07:52.77 is ultimately created by God - and this is very important - also sustained by God. God 00:07:52.87\00:08:02.11 sustains His creation. And so then we have to ask ourselves, "How should I treat this 00:08:02.21\00:08:09.15 creation? Should I be comfortable with the idea that we can go out and destroy the 00:08:09.25\00:08:18.59 environment in which we live? destroy other organisms for some short-term expediency for 00:08:18.69\00:08:29.70 myself?" So just in terms of how we treat the rest of the creation is a big, big question, 00:08:29.80\00:08:41.78 possibly one that we as Christians should struggle with a little bit more. Think about 00:08:41.88\00:08:45.89 it. The Bible is quite amazing. You know, it gives very specific instructions about how we should 00:08:45.99\00:08:51.99 treat other animals. It tells us that God cares about other creatures. It does not put, 00:08:52.09\00:09:02.00 however, those other creatures on the same footing as human beings. The Bible tells us that 00:09:02.10\00:09:11.85 human beings are different. We have been created in the image of God. It also tells us that 00:09:11.95\00:09:23.46 there's something special, then, about the relationship between men and women. You know, there's 00:09:23.56\00:09:33.77 one unique difference in the creation of human beings that you don't see with the other 00:09:33.87\00:09:41.34 organisms. CHRIS: Okay. DR. STANDISH: God formed Adam out of the dust. The Bible tells us, in 00:09:41.44\00:09:49.28 Genesis 2, that He formed all the other creatures out of the dust. God breathed the breath of 00:09:49.38\00:09:56.66 life into Adam. But if we look, particularly a few chapters into the book of Genesis, where it 00:09:56.76\00:10:06.67 starts talking about the flood and talking about other creatures with the breath of 00:10:06.77\00:10:12.64 life in them. So well, what is it that makes Adam different? CHRIS: Yes, so you've got me 00:10:12.74\00:10:21.82 wondering now. DR. STANDISH: Well, he's formed in the image 00:10:21.92\00:10:25.45 of God. But think about this: What about Eve? First of all, Adam got to observe the other 00:10:25.55\00:10:37.07 creatures and realize his need for a wife. The other creatures didn't get that. And then - and 00:10:37.17\00:10:46.37 this is just glorious - God creates Eve from Adam. Wow. That's different. Now, you're a 00:10:46.47\00:10:59.12 pastor. I don't know, you know, I'm a mere biologist. But I notice these differences. And 00:10:59.22\00:11:07.03 that does have powerful implications. The relationship between a man and a woman is not 00:11:07.13\00:11:14.87 the same as the relationship between a cow and a bull. There's a difference there. So 00:11:14.97\00:11:20.81 when we start talking about relationships between human beings, the creation account 00:11:20.91\00:11:28.35 makes a huge difference. CHRIS: That is powerful. And so, when we look at the moral 00:11:28.45\00:11:37.59 implications of understanding and accepting the Biblical account of origins, it has more 00:11:37.69\00:11:44.60 than just the implication of an intellectual ideology, but rather, it affects, putting it 00:11:44.70\00:11:53.24 simply, how I live, how I treat others. Because when you and I are talking, when you and I are 00:11:53.34\00:12:02.55 interacting, you are a creature created by God. When I interact with the environment around me - 00:12:02.65\00:12:11.36 this environment, the plants, the animals - are things created by a Creator that I ought to 00:12:11.46\00:12:19.50 have an appreciation for. DR. STANDISH: Oh, yes, yes. And you know, there's another area that 00:12:19.60\00:12:30.61 I think we can dig into if we actually get into what I would consider to be the most popular 00:12:30.71\00:12:39.12 alternative view of things, which is Darwinian evolution. You know, it becomes quite stark 00:12:39.22\00:12:47.40 when you start comparing and contrasting what's going on there. CHRIS: Yes. And I was 00:12:47.50\00:12:52.10 just going to ask you about that, because then, the glaring question is: If I accept 00:12:52.20\00:12:58.81 something outside the Biblical account of origins, Darwinian evolution is the most popular. 00:12:58.91\00:13:06.25 Now, maybe just as kind of a brief, very, very brief explanation of Darwinian 00:13:06.35\00:13:13.82 evolution - which won't do it justice, because volumes have been written - what is Darwinian 00:13:13.92\00:13:21.33 evolution, in its simplest explanation? DR. STANDISH: At its core, Darwinian evolution is 00:13:21.43\00:13:27.27 a materialistic theory of origins. So it's a theory that says there was no intervention 00:13:27.37\00:13:38.45 from outside of nature when it came to the production of all of the organisms that we see today 00:13:38.55\00:13:46.76 CHRIS: And so, kind of standing in distinction from the Biblical account: the Biblical account 00:13:46.86\00:13:55.33 gives a plan with a Planner, or a design with a Designer; Darwinian evolution, there is no 00:13:55.43\00:14:04.01 plan, there is no design, there is no planner, there is no designer; things just happen 00:14:04.11\00:14:06.84 because that's the course of things happening, in its simplicity. DR. STANDISH: Yes. 00:14:06.94\00:14:11.38 Now, Charles Darwin himself, remember, he was a trained theologian. He was a trained 00:14:11.48\00:14:18.75 pastor. So he actually thought about these things sometimes quite deeply and wrote about 00:14:18.85\00:14:24.93 them as well. So he actually does do a fair amount of comparing and contrasting 00:14:25.03\00:14:31.60 himself. I've got a quote here that I want to read to you. This is Charles Darwin writing, way 00:14:31.70\00:14:41.44 back in 1838. So you'll remember that he published his theory of evolution in a book called The 00:14:41.54\00:14:47.82 Origin of Species. That book was published in 1859. So 21 years before that, he was writing. And 00:14:47.92\00:14:56.66 he wrote: So Darwin, long, long, long before, actually, he started writing The Origin of 00:15:15.81\00:15:23.42 Species, had committed himself to some kind of evolutionary idea in which human beings came 00:15:23.52\00:15:32.96 from animals. And by the way, this was not unique to him at that particular time. It wasn't 00:15:33.06\00:15:38.87 even unique in his own family. His grandfather. Erasmus Darwin, believed the same thing and 00:15:38.97\00:15:44.24 actually wrote about it. He had apparently a family motto that said something like, "Everything 00:15:44.34\00:15:50.58 came from shells," which is kind of interesting. But you know, Darwin believed we came from 00:15:50.68\00:15:59.39 animals; we were not the creation of God. So morally, then, we're the same as the 00:15:59.49\00:16:08.80 other animals. CHRIS: And so, with that said, then, Dr. Standish, I mean, what is the 00:16:08.90\00:16:14.80 moral implication and what are some of the moral implications? DR. STANDISH: Well, you know, 00:16:14.90\00:16:21.18 I'm a mere biologist, so what I try to do is I try to go and read what people who are experts 00:16:21.28\00:16:27.05 in this area say. And I have a quote here from Peter Singer. Now, Peter Singer is a very 00:16:27.15\00:16:35.82 eminent ethicist. He's a Darwinian ethicist. And many people have heard of him because 00:16:35.92\00:16:44.87 he's been a champion of animal rights. And that obviously springs from his kind of system 00:16:44.97\00:16:55.24 of ethics. Human beings are not necessarily different from animals. So why would we treat 00:16:55.34\00:17:03.59 humans differently than we treat animals? So let me read this to 00:17:03.69\00:17:09.62 you. He said, He argues that animals and humans have the same moral status. And he is not 00:17:31.51\00:17:40.79 alone in doing that. James Rachels, another prominent commentator in this area, wrote: 00:17:40.89\00:17:47.40 So you know, this is not. I don't want to put words into these gentlemen's mouths, but 00:18:06.58\00:18:14.99 this is very, very profound, because if humans are the same as animals, then either animals 00:18:15.09\00:18:23.00 have all the same rights as human beings, or human beings have no special rights at all. 00:18:23.10\00:18:32.11 CHRIS: Yes, and I mean, beyond that, it would seem that not only we talk about the operation 00:18:32.21\00:18:41.32 of society - and society is governed by laws and regulations, and many of those 00:18:41.42\00:18:47.59 laws and regulations, at least in the United States and in Canada, many of those laws and 00:18:47.69\00:18:54.13 regulations actually find their roots in the Bible - but if we're saying that, I mean, the 00:18:54.23\00:19:00.07 implications of this are far-reaching, that not only do animals and human beings have 00:19:00.17\00:19:07.11 the same rights, so to speak, but then as human beings, we really don't need to operate 00:19:07.21\00:19:14.35 within a set of laws or regulations, because if we're no different than animals, then we 00:19:14.45\00:19:19.29 should just do as we desire. DR. STANDISH: That's right. If it's okay for animals, it must be 00:19:19.39\00:19:23.93 okay for human beings as well. Now, there are a number of areas where this has actually come 00:19:24.03\00:19:29.40 into quite stark focus in the last few years. One of them has to do with the question of human 00:19:29.50\00:19:39.21 rights. In this system of thinking, human rights don't really actually kind of exist, 00:19:39.31\00:19:48.12 because why would we have different rights than other organisms? CHRIS: Okay. DR. 00:19:48.22\00:19:54.02 STANDISH: So how do you justify, then, treating human beings differently than cows or frogs 00:19:54.12\00:20:01.56 or trees? What is developing is a system that. it's a utilitarian way of thinking 00:20:01.66\00:20:12.81 about things. Basically, the argument is, humans are special because we have special 00:20:12.91\00:20:18.75 cognitive abilities. We have special brains, and cows don't. So cows can't comprehend 00:20:18.85\00:20:26.49 suffering, let's say, in the same way that human beings can. Now, we have no real way of 00:20:26.59\00:20:33.26 knowing that, but this is sort of the way the thinking goes. So that sounds like it might work. 00:20:33.36\00:20:40.50 But what happens when you turn that on its ear a little bit? What happens if you have a human 00:20:40.60\00:20:46.71 being who is mentally impaired in some way? What these guys have done is they've separated 00:20:46.81\00:20:54.48 the concept of a human being, which is reasonably easy to identify - if it comes out of a 00:20:54.58\00:21:01.89 human mother, it's a human being - from a concept we call person-hood or something along 00:21:01.99\00:21:11.40 those lines. A person may have special rights, but a human does not. And then the argument goes, 00:21:11.50\00:21:20.21 if a person. when a human is born, they're a baby. They don't have the cognitive abilities of 00:21:20.31\00:21:30.52 a 20- or 30- or 50-year-old. So therefore, they don't have special rights. And in fact, it 00:21:30.62\00:21:38.49 has been advocated, even in major - at least, I'm thinking of one specific example, in a 00:21:38.59\00:21:47.97 major journal of medical ethics - it's been advocated that it's okay to kill babies, if they're 00:21:48.07\00:21:56.38 an inconvenience. CHRIS: Wow. DR. STANDISH: Because they have no special moral status. They 00:21:56.48\00:22:02.22 have not yet developed into persons. And of course, the concept of a person is something 00:22:02.32\00:22:09.62 that is decided by the person who decides it. There's no kind of sharp line there. What 00:22:09.72\00:22:20.10 happens when a person develops Alzheimer's disease? Are they still a person anymore? Or is it 00:22:20.20\00:22:27.01 okay to dispose of them? These are questions that are being seriously asked, reasoning from 00:22:27.11\00:22:36.58 the Darwinian perspective. CHRIS: Yes, and I just want to be clear, as maybe a viewer has 00:22:36.69\00:22:43.99 picked up our show in the middle. We are not advocating this; we are talking about the 00:22:44.09\00:22:47.83 implications of accepting Darwinian evolution. And the ethics of that is that 00:22:47.93\00:22:55.17 essentially, we take human beings, and human beings are not special, number one; but number 00:22:55.27\00:23:02.01 two, even within human beings, we are making the distinction that someone with cognitive 00:23:02.11\00:23:07.92 abilities is a person, and so they have special rights, but a human being by nature doesn't 00:23:08.02\00:23:14.42 have special rights, so someone that is. DR. STANDISH: There are 00:23:14.52\00:23:18.99 no human rights. CHRIS: There are no human rights. So someone that is mentally handicapped in 00:23:19.09\00:23:22.26 some way, someone who is possibly malformed, someone who develops Alzheimer's later in 00:23:22.36\00:23:30.17 life, they're not a person, and because they're not a person with whatever cognitive 00:23:30.27\00:23:36.71 abilities the individual testing cognitive abilities says is a cognitive person, they're not a 00:23:36.81\00:23:43.79 person and have zero rights. DR. STANDISH: Precisely. Now, contrast that with the Biblical 00:23:43.89\00:23:51.66 view of things. CHRIS: Yes. DR. STANDISH: And obviously, we can talk in sort of abstract terms 00:23:51.76\00:23:57.93 about being created in the image of God and all of those things, 00:23:58.03\00:24:02.30 but as Christians, Bible-believing Christians, we have a huge advantage, because 00:24:02.40\00:24:09.48 the Creator of this world came down and lived as a human being: Jesus Christ. So we can look at 00:24:09.58\00:24:21.32 how Jesus valued those who were considered to be of less value in the society that He operated 00:24:21.42\00:24:29.63 in. CHRIS: Yeah, I mean, Dr. Standish, you've got my mind just. I mean, I think about 00:24:29.73\00:24:35.64 Jesus. I mean, Jesus addresses the leper; Jesus addresses the crippled man; Jesus addresses a 00:24:35.74\00:24:42.01 woman who has an issue of blood. And then even beyond that, Jesus addresses someone who's dead. 00:24:42.11\00:24:49.82 And so the implications of that are far-reaching. DR. STANDISH: Oh, yes. The demoniacs. Think 00:24:49.92\00:24:53.46 about that. Jesus went across the Sea of Galilee to meet men who had lost their minds, and He 00:24:53.56\00:25:04.97 restored them. Here's another one. And this really touches my heart. Jesus, when people 00:25:05.07\00:25:14.21 brought their children to Him, how did His disciples react? They didn't think that the 00:25:14.31\00:25:20.08 children were worthy. CHRIS: That's right. DR. STANDISH: Because they, for better or for 00:25:20.18\00:25:26.96 worse, were thinking along similar lines. But Jesus said, you know, "Suffer the little 00:25:27.06\00:25:33.60 children. Come unto me." He didn't say, "Well, when they're old enough and they have the 00:25:33.70\00:25:40.80 cognitive abilities that make them persons, then I will take care of them." He, you know, was 00:25:40.90\00:25:50.11 there and ready to bless them and value them. The Bible, both the Old and New Testaments, 00:25:50.21\00:25:58.92 constantly call on the followers of the created God to, you know, help the needy, take care of the 00:25:59.02\00:26:10.90 vulnerable, and so on, not to devalue them or make some judgement about whether they're 00:26:11.00\00:26:17.74 persons and therefore they have value and rights versus, you know, being human, which doesn't 00:26:17.84\00:26:25.75 intrinsically have any rights. It's 100% in one direction: they're of infinite value. Jesus 00:26:25.85\00:26:31.89 Christ died for all human beings. CHRIS: You know, Dr. Standish, it's hard to believe 00:26:31.99\00:26:37.93 that we are out of time. But what a profound not just thought, but reality: to accept 00:26:38.03\00:26:45.57 an account of origins outside the Biblical account of origins has far-reaching effect, because 00:26:45.67\00:26:55.18 outside of it, there is no value to a human being, but within it, we value all human beings, which 00:26:55.28\00:27:04.19 is why we should feed the hungry, why we should reach out to the poor, why we should treat 00:27:04.29\00:27:11.03 one another with respect, even when we disagree. Because, as you pointed out, in God's eyes, 00:27:11.13\00:27:18.87 every last one of us is of infinite value in His eyes, such an infinite value, that He 00:27:18.97\00:27:29.11 actually came to this earth to die for us to make us a new creation. DR. STANDISH: Wow. 00:27:29.21\00:27:34.58 CHRIS: Amazing. Dr. Standish, let's pray together. Lord, we are so thankful that You made 00:27:34.68\00:27:41.66 us, and because You made us, we are infinite in value in Your eyes. We thank You so much, in 00:27:41.76\00:27:48.60 Jesus' name, amen. DR. STANDISH: Amen. 00:27:48.70\00:27:51.80 CHRIS: Dear friends, what a profound thought: the Master Designer, Jesus Christ, crafted 00:27:57.21\00:28:04.18 and made you with infinite value. You know, if you'd like to learn more about this Jesus 00:28:04.28\00:28:12.42 Who places infinite value on you, I'd like to offer you the Discover Bible guides. You'll be 00:28:12.52\00:28:19.93 drawn nearer to Him, learn more about Him. Here's the information you need to receive 00:28:20.03\00:28:25.23 today's offer. 00:28:25.33\00:28:27.14 CHRIS: Dr. Standish, I want to thank you so much for this profound discussion on ethics. 00:29:22.66\00:29:28.10 DR. STANDISH: You know, the bottom line is, in the Biblical view of things, humans are of 00:29:28.20\00:29:32.50 infinite value; in the Darwinian view, they are of questionable value. CHRIS: You know, dear 00:29:32.60\00:29:39.27 friends, I want to thank you so much for watching. And if you want to continue to learn more 00:29:39.37\00:29:44.35 about this God Who places infinite value on you, join us again next week. Until then, 00:29:44.45\00:29:49.65 remember, it is written: "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds 00:29:49.75\00:29:56.42 from the mouth of God." 00:29:56.52\00:30:00.23