#
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>>Announcer: It has
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Still relevant in
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It Is Written
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CHRIS: Friend, thank you so much
for choosing to watch It Is
Written. We'rein the third part
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of our series, "How Old is Old?"
Not when we were born, or when
our last birthday was, but
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asking the question of origins.
How old are we? Where did we
come from? How long ago did we
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come from it? And to help me in
this conversation, I want to
welcome again good friend Dr.
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Tim Standish. Dr. Standish,
thank you so much again for
being here with us. DR.
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STANDISH: Well, thanks so much.
You know, I'm having fun with
this, and I hope that
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everybody's enjoying just
digging into these questions a
little bit. We don't have all
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the answers. But you know, there
are some great answers there,
both in science and in the
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Bible, that can really, I
believe, build our faith and
give us hope for the future.
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CHRIS: Absolutely. And speaking
of that, you work for the
Geoscience Research Institute as
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a senior scientist. And part of
your mission is to look at this
relationship between faith, the
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Bible, and science. What are
some of the projects that you're
working on right now as a group
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to look at that relationship
between faith, science, and the
Bible? DR. STANDISH: Well, I
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will tell you that one project
that we're looking at right now
has to do with the problem of
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evil. You know, what really does
the Bible say about this? How do
we explain things in nature? How
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does the Bible explain things in
nature that look designed, but
look like they're designed for
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an evil purpose? So, for
example, how do we explain
things like the envenomation
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system that you see in
rattlesnakes? You know, that's a
system that's designed to kill.
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How could a good God have made
something like that? We're
actually taking a step back,
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with some other colleagues -
because we don't work in
isolation; we work with other
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academics - looking at what the
Bible actually says about these
things. So we're taking actual,
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real, scientific examples and
comparing them with what the
Bible says, to see, hey, you
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know, is there something there
that actually makes sense? Is
there something that works in
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all of this? CHRIS: Wow, that is
very exciting. And if somebody
wanted to kind of follow that
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research, read about other
research that the Geoscience
Research Institute is doing,
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where might they find some of
that information? DR. STANDISH:
They can follow us on
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Facebook. CHRIS: Okay. DR.
STANDISH: And certainly, I
encourage them to visit our web
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page, that's grisda.org,
grisda.org. And we have a blog
there, we have a huge collection
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of excellent papers and articles
on science and faith. We have a
constantly-updated series of
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links to articles that deal with
questions relating to science
and faith. So it's an
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interesting, constantly-changing
page. Some things are very
academic, other things are for a
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broader audience. CHRIS: You
know, Dr. Standish, we have been
having conversations about this
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issue of how old is old, what
are our origins? Dr. Standish,
you are a biologist, you have a
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Ph.D. in environmental biology
and public policy. You have a
Master's of Science in biology.
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You have a Bachelor's of Science
in zoology. You've taught as a
professor of biology in two
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different universities. So when
we look at this issue of
fossils, of rocks, why are they
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so important? DR. STANDISH:
Well, the most important thing,
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for me, at least, about fossils
is that they allow us to do the
closest thing we can to time
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travel. Because we can't go
backwards in time, we have to
look at whatever record is
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there. Obviously, the best thing
is a written record by somebody
who actually witnessed
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something. But the fossils
reveal to us important
information about organisms that
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lived in the past. CHRIS: And
what we talked about in our last
show was patterns. We see these
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patterns, and probably most
importantly, the pattern that is
absent from the fossil record is
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organisms such as the trilobite,
which we talked about, shows up
in the Cambrian layer, but
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before that, you don't have
organisms that look like they're
becoming trilobites, and
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eventually developing into
trilobites. What's happening
there? They just appear. DR.
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STANDISH: They appear from
nowhere, apparently. CHRIS: Yes.
And we talked about those
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patterns, and those patterns
point to a plan, a design, a
planner. And actually, this
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fossil record, although a record
of death, although a record of
the marring of creation- because
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somewhere along the line,
creation kind of set off on a
different plan - the fossil
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record shows that there is a
God, a master designer behind
it. Now, here's my question,
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though, that we need to get into
today, because that's wonderful
that the fossil record shows
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patterns. Here's the thing. A
lot of science literature, when
I took science class in junior
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high, high school, talked a lot
about fossils. In fact, I fell
in love with dinosaurs when I
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was very young. But here's the
issue: When we read the
literature, when we hear
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scientists, when we look in our
science textbooks, most of them
are talking about fossils being
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millions, if not billions of
years old. What are your
thoughts on that? DR.
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STANDISH: Well, first of all,
isn't that a horrifying thought?
That millions and millions and
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millions of years, hundreds of
millions of years, by most
accounts, innumerable organisms
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have been dying, you know,
suffering and death, suffering
and death, for hundreds of
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millions of years. Now, there
are a few fossils that are
supposed to be billions of years
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old, but those are rare and
unusual. CHRIS: Okay. DR.
STANDISH: It's really fossils
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that show up in that Cambrian
layer, which was supposed to
start about 540 million years
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ago, where all of a sudden, you
see lots and lots and lots of
fossils. Below that, not so many
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of them. However, there's a
recent paper that is very
fascinating when it comes to
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these things. And that bears on
this issue of time. CHRIS: Okay.
DR. STANDISH: It turns out that
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the carbon that you find in
living things has a slightly
different isotopic ratio. It has
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a little, like a chemical
signature that's a little
bitdifferent from carbon that's
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just out there and didn't come
from a biological source. Now,
the interesting thing about that
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is, they find carbon with that
biological signature in it that
is in rocks, little zircon
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crystals, okay, little zircon
crystals that are supposed to be
older than 4 billion years. Now,
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why is that important? CHRIS:
Yes. DR. STANDISH: Because even
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in the conventional dating
scheme of things, it means there
was no time for life to evolve.
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Basically, the way things are
supposed to have worked is this:
about 4.5 billion years ago -
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bear in mind, I do not believe
these numbers - 4.5 billion
years ago, dust and stuff all
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amalgamated together to form the
planet Earth. But, it was very
hot. And so the earth was a
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molten ball. Nothing could live
on the surface of molten rock.
CHRIS: Sure. DR. STANDISH: And
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supposedly, it took half a
billion years for the earth to
cool enough to have a crust on
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it. So what that means is, rocks
that are older than 4 billion
years are barely the first rocks
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formed when the earth cooled
enough to get a crust on it.
There's no time between being a
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molten ball and this organic
carbon for life to actually
evolve. Now, somebody will
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probably figure out away of
inserting a few years in there.
But the point is, that even when
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you take these numbers for what
they claim, there are major,
major problems with the
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development of life, giving life
enough time to develop for
chemicals. It's hard to imagine
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that happened in an instant. We
haven't observed it happening in
several thousand years. So you
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know, the idea that it would
occur in an instant is pretty
optimistic, let's put it that
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way. CHRIS: So if that model is
not a model that works, in your
mind, let's talk about time.
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What is a model that does work?
DR. STANDISH: Well, I believe
that the biblical account of
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history is an accurate one. And
it's still not necessarily that
easy to put your finger on
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exactly when the creation
occurred. Remember that I'm a
biologist, so my primary
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interest is in when the
organisms were created. So there
was that six-day creation week,
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followed by rest on the Sabbath,
where all of the creation is
basically enjoying rest after a
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very eventful week. The
question, then, is, when did
that week happen? And the Bible
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gives us some great data to work
with. We see it in the form of
genealogies. CHRIS: Okay. DR.
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STANDISH: So in these
genealogies, what it'll say is,
"Well, in such-and-such a year,
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when so-and-so was such-and-such
an age, they had a son, and that
son's name was such-and-such."
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It could've been Noah or
something like that. And then
when Noah was such-and-such an
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age, then he had a son, and that
son may have been Shem, let's
say. CHRIS: Yes. DR.
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STANDISH: And if you look at
these, you can actually figure
out, okay, there's a certain
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number of years between all of
these births, and you can get up
to an actual historical event,
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at which point you can then
figure out the time between that
historical event that we have a
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date for and the present day.
And when you do that, you get
something between 6 and
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something less than 10,000
years. It depends on how you add
the numbers up, and there are
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other variables that you can put
in there. So we can't put our
finger on exactly when the day
00:13:02.61\00:13:07.25
of creation was. But the point
is this: It's thousands of years
ago; it's not millions or
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billions of years ago, according
to the Biblical account. So then
the question is, well, why is it
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that scientists are saying,
"Well, life was never created,
and it came into existence
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billions of years ago,"
basically, and there's this huge
amount of time? Well, there are
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two major reasons whythat's
done. CHRIS: Okay. DR. STANDISH:
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Number one, the thinking is that
if you have enough time, that,
combined with natural selection,
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will be kind of like the magic
source that somehow or other
produces this amazing diversity
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of life that we enjoy and
celebrate today. There are major
problems with that. I mean,
00:14:02.67\00:14:10.45
obviously, it sort of becomes
unscientific after a while.
CHRIS: Yes. DR. STANDISH: What
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it's saying is, because we
scientifically do not observe
this happening today, we're
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going to put it well beyond the
possibility of observation by
putting it way back in time.
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Everybody agrees that no human
being was there to observe the
creation. CHRIS: That's right.
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DR. STANDISH: So somehow or
other, we've got to use data and
we have to, you know, look at
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what our philosophical system
demands. The materialistic,
Darwinian system demands huge
00:14:45.51\00:14:52.12
amounts of time. Now, as we
discussed before, even with
those huge amounts of time,
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there are immense problems for
the Darwinian system. Time is
not the same thing as magic. And
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stuff that, you know, we
believe, to at least a limited
degree, that the present is the
00:15:04.10\00:15:10.74
key to the past, as scientists,
we believe that the laws of
physics remain the same, and so
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on. So why would we expect an
event that we don't observe
happening today to have occurred
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a billion years ago or three
billion years ago or longer? It
just, it's kind of a leap of
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faith. I'm not all that
comfortable with leaps of faith
like that myself. Then the
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question. but there's this other
major reason why a scientist
might start talking about long
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periods of time, and that is
because there's actual data that
are well-interpreted within that
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kind of model. CHRIS: Okay. DR.
STANDISH: And you've probably
heard of radiometric dating.
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CHRIS: Yes, for sure. DR.
STANDISH: That's probably the
number one thing out there. But
00:16:00.92\00:16:05.66
there are other methods as well.
You might look at rates of
erosion, things like that.
00:16:05.76\00:16:10.77
CHRIS: Okay. DR. STANDISH: And
then sort of start doing
extrapolating from that.
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CHRIS: Now, we've had some
previous discussion in our
previous shows, that that first
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reason that you were talking
about, of long periods of time
and natural selection. DR.
00:16:21.48\00:16:27.85
STANDISH: Yeah. They're a sort
of philosophical reason, I would
call it. CHRIS: Yes. That just
00:16:27.95\00:16:32.45
doesn't seem to work, because
the evidence of the fossil
record, for example, the
00:16:32.55\00:16:38.33
trilobite, it doesn't show this
long period of time in the
fossil record where you have
00:16:38.43\00:16:45.63
this evolving organism that
becomes a trilobite. You simply
have trilobites that [snap]
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there they are. DR. STANDISH:
There they are. CHRIS: And so
00:16:53.38\00:16:57.61
the evidence, the observable,
scientific evidence, not there.
Now, this second thing,
00:16:57.71\00:17:05.42
radiometric dating and some of
these other things, very briefly
- and we don't have time to have
00:17:05.52\00:17:10.96
an in-depth conversation for
radiometric dating - I need to
be able to ask you intelligent
00:17:11.06\00:17:14.76
questions, and it would be very
hard for me to understand - but
very elementary explanation,
00:17:14.86\00:17:20.04
what challenges are we having
there? DR. STANDISH: Well, when
we look at rocks, there are
00:17:20.14\00:17:25.24
certain isotopes, certain
variations on elements that we
find in there. And some of them
00:17:25.34\00:17:34.68
are unstable. So they'll convert
from one type to another type of
atom, basically. And we can
00:17:34.78\00:17:41.46
easily - well, not easily - but
in the lab, we can measure the
quantity that is present. And so
00:17:41.56\00:17:49.96
the bottom line is this: if you
know how many were there in the
first place, and you know how
00:17:50.07\00:17:55.47
many of a certain isotope you
have now, and if you know that
it changes from one form to
00:17:55.57\00:18:01.98
another at a constant rate over
time, you can calculate the
time. That's the basic idea.
00:18:02.08\00:18:09.22
CHRIS: Okay. DR. STANDISH: It's
a little bit complicated. It
seems to work sometimes. But
00:18:09.32\00:18:19.59
then sometimes it doesn't seem
to work. The thing that
fascinates me about radiometric
00:18:19.69\00:18:22.56
dating, and the best method that
I understand - I should say the
method I understand the best -
00:18:22.66\00:18:27.00
is carbon-14 dating. It's the
only one that really can measure
how old a biological sample is.
00:18:27.10\00:18:40.12
CHRIS: Okay. DR. STANDISH: Now,
it's quite limited. You really
can't get dates much beyond
00:18:40.22\00:18:45.45
100,000 years using carbon-14
dating. CHRIS: Okay. DR.
STANDISH: So carbon-14 dating
00:18:45.55\00:18:52.69
has never shown, and can't show,
in theory, even, that something
is millions of years old.
00:18:52.79\00:18:59.23
CHRIS: Okay. DR. STANDISH: And
the thing that's interesting, to
me, about carbon-14 dating is
00:18:59.33\00:19:04.37
that actually, as far as I've
been able to determine, nobody
truly believes it, at least, the
00:19:04.47\00:19:10.78
theory, because instead of using
the theoretical rate at which
carbon-14 is supposed to
00:19:10.88\00:19:17.99
change-actually, to nitrogen-14,
interestingly enough- instead of
using that, a standard curve has
00:19:18.09\00:19:28.00
been developed based on the
known dates of samples. And you
can imagine where this is going.
00:19:28.10\00:19:37.37
What that means is, people don't
truly believe the theory, and
they go with these known dates,
00:19:37.47\00:19:44.58
but that assumes that you
actually know the dates of these
pieces of wood or whatever it is
00:19:44.68\00:19:50.19
that you're working with. So
it's an interesting method of
dating things. It does sometimes
00:19:50.29\00:19:57.33
seem to work. Sometimes it
doesn't seem to work. So for
example, when you look at the
00:19:57.43\00:20:02.76
dating of the Dead Sea Scrolls,
sometimes the carbon-14 dating
lines up with the dates that are
00:20:02.86\00:20:11.97
actually written in the scrolls;
sometimes they don't, which is
kind of unexpected. CHRIS: Yeah,
00:20:12.07\00:20:20.95
sure. DR. STANDISH: But that
would be an example of how
there's a lot of uncertainty in
00:20:21.05\00:20:25.45
this. I'm more interested in
not, you know, with something
within 100 years of a certain
00:20:25.55\00:20:31.53
date; I'm interested in this big
question: Is life hundreds of
millions of years old, or is it
00:20:31.63\00:20:37.07
thousands of years old? CHRIS:
And that's what I was going to
ask you. So we have a
00:20:37.17\00:20:42.04
challenge here. We have a great
deal of science saying millions
and billions; we have the Bible
00:20:42.14\00:20:48.88
saying thousands; we have a
fossil record that seems to
indicate millions and billions
00:20:48.98\00:20:55.72
not possible, and thousands,
much more plausible. So what do
we do with that, Dr. Standish?
00:20:55.82\00:21:02.42
DR. STANDISH: Well, obviously,
you should have an
understanding, at least as a
00:21:02.52\00:21:08.23
scientist, I believe you should
have some sort of evidence-based
idea about this. So going in
00:21:08.33\00:21:12.77
between is basicallycoming up
with a theory that doesn't have
any data to support it.
00:21:12.87\00:21:19.47
CHRIS: Yes. DR. STANDISH: I
happen to go with the Bible. But
it does turn out that if you
00:21:19.57\00:21:24.05
look at fossils, there's plenty
of evidence that in fact, they
are not millions of years old.
00:21:24.15\00:21:33.22
CHRIS: And what is some of that
evidence? DR. STANDISH: I'll
give you an example. This here
00:21:33.32\00:21:37.29
is a piece of dinosaur bone.
It's been cut through there. And
you can see that this particular
00:21:37.39\00:21:45.60
dinosaur bone is mineralized.
The original bone that was there
has been replaced with minerals
00:21:45.70\00:21:55.51
of various kinds. However,
sometimes you find dinosaur bone
that doesn't have the bone
00:21:55.61\00:22:04.05
actually replaced by other
minerals. And you can remove the
normal minerals that are found
00:22:04.15\00:22:14.86
in bone, the calcium phosphate
that's there, and in bone,
there's actually quite a bit of
00:22:14.96\00:22:19.73
protein that's present. CHRIS:
Okay. DR. STANDISH: Now, this
has been reported in the
00:22:19.83\00:22:24.37
scientific literature. Now, bear
in mind, dinosaurs are supposed
to have gone extinct about 65
00:22:24.47\00:22:33.52
million years ago. CHRIS: Okay.
DR. STANDISH: So any dinosaur
bone should bemore than 65
00:22:33.62\00:22:41.49
million years old, and yet,
various biological molecules,
and in particular, specific
00:22:41.59\00:22:49.83
proteins, have been found inside
these bones. That is shocking
news. CHRIS: Yes, very shocking
00:22:49.93\00:22:59.44
news. So we're shrinking down
that major long ages. DR.
STANDISH: Proteins do not last
00:22:59.54\00:23:06.28
millions of years. This has been
tested very, very carefully in
laboratories, because it's one
00:23:06.38\00:23:12.29
of those things that can be used
in forensic science. You want to
know how old the body is? One
00:23:12.39\00:23:18.99
thing you can look at is how
fast the proteins break down in
those bones. Now, they might be
00:23:19.09\00:23:25.70
able to stay around for
thousands of years, but millions
of years? Wow. That's pretty
00:23:25.80\00:23:32.44
optimistic. That's pretty
optimistic. So that would be a
biological example. CHRIS: Okay.
00:23:32.54\00:23:38.68
DR. STANDISH: It's not just
proteins. Right now, I and some
colleagues have been collecting
00:23:38.78\00:23:46.96
papers, reporting in the
peer-reviewed scientific
literature, the presence of
00:23:47.06\00:23:52.99
biological molecules associated
with fossils of various kinds -
proteins, fats, other things
00:23:53.09\00:24:03.14
that are produced by living
things - they shouldn't be
there, and yet they're present.
00:24:03.24\00:24:08.54
CHRIS: This is fascinating, Dr.
Standish. We are running a bit
short on time, but you were
00:24:08.64\00:24:16.75
going to show, I think,
something else here. DR.
STANDISH: Let me show you one
00:24:16.85\00:24:19.49
more quick one. CHRIS: Please, I
like show and tell, yes. DR.
STANDISH: In salt, there are
00:24:19.59\00:24:22.56
little bacteria that get trapped
inside the salt crystals. These
bacteria that are supposed to be
00:24:22.66\00:24:28.43
on the order of hundreds of
millions of years old can be
brought back to life. Now, there
00:24:28.53\00:24:38.27
are obviously multiple
explanations that you can have
for this. But if those bacteria
00:24:38.37\00:24:43.38
are truly over a hundred million
years old, there is no
possibility that they could've
00:24:43.48\00:24:51.39
lasted that kind of time period
and still be alive in there.
That's just incredible. And like
00:24:51.49\00:24:59.46
I said, this is in the
peer-reviewed scientific
literature. It's not some sort
00:24:59.56\00:25:03.26
of marginal thing or somebody
who's just sort of making this
up. So that would be another
00:25:03.37\00:25:08.34
example. Another example has to
do with the rate at which the
human genome and the genomes of
00:25:08.44\00:25:14.58
other organisms seem to be
breaking down. The idea that you
can push the ancestors of human
00:25:14.68\00:25:24.62
beings back hundreds of millions
of years without their genomes
simply breaking down to the
00:25:24.72\00:25:29.49
point that everything goes
extinct, is very optimistic.
Thousands of years, yes;
00:25:29.59\00:25:36.00
millions of years, no. CHRIS:
You know, Dr. Standish, we are
out of time, and we could
00:25:36.10\00:25:42.40
say a great deal more on this
topic. But once again, we see
evidence of a recent creation, a
00:25:42.50\00:25:53.21
recent design, by a loving God
who wants to lead us to a new
creation. Let's have a word of
00:25:53.31\00:26:01.72
prayer as we end our time today.
Heavenly Father, we thank You.
We thank You that we are
00:26:01.82\00:26:10.37
designed and we are fashioned in
Your likeness, and that You want
to make us a new creation. We
00:26:10.47\00:26:20.18
pray in Jesus' name,
amen. DR. STANDISH: Amen.
00:26:20.28\00:26:23.51
#
00:26:28.28\00:26:28.85
CHRIS: Friends, evidence demands
a verdict. And the evidence
points to a plan with a planner,
00:26:30.19\00:26:40.26
and that planner is Jesus
Christ. Today for our offer, I
want to give you some of that
00:26:40.36\00:26:47.04
evidence. I'd like to offer for
you fossils, your own fossils,
where you can see the evidence
00:26:47.14\00:26:54.51
of God's divine plan. In
addition to that offer, I'd like
to offer you the DVD, the
00:26:54.61\00:27:00.82
three-part series on a DVD of
Dr. Standish and I discussing,
how old are we? You can have
00:27:00.92\00:27:10.46
that DVD for any size donation;
the fossil, absolutely free.
Here's the information you need
00:27:10.56\00:27:17.73
to receive today's offer.
00:27:17.83\00:27:19.70
#
00:28:07.22\00:28:07.68
CHRIS: Dr. Standish, thank you
so much for helping us on our
study of how old are we. DR.
00:28:09.12\00:28:14.29
STANDISH: I'm so thankful to God
that He hasn't left us suffering
for millions of years. CHRIS: I
00:28:14.39\00:28:19.76
am as well. Dear friends, I want
to invite you to join us again
next week. Until then, remember,
00:28:19.86\00:28:27.07
it is written: "Man shall not
live by bread alone, but by
every word that proceeds from
00:28:27.17\00:28:33.41
the mouth of God."
00:28:33.51\00:28:35.18
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
00:28:36.21\00:28:36.24