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>>Announcer: It has
stood the test of time.
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God's book, The Bible
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Still relevant in
today's complex world
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It Is Written
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Sharing messages of
hope around the world!
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CHRIS: Dear friends, I'm so glad
that you've joined us for part
two, "How Old is Old?" How old
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are we? Not when we were born,
but the origin of the earth, the
origin of the universe. How old
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are we? Today I have a special
guest, Dr. Tim Standish. Dr.
Standish, so glad that you are
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joining us once again to have
discussions on how old is old.
DR. STANDISH: I'm glad to be
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back. And yes, I brought some
show-and-tell with me too, so
I'm excited about this program.
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CHRIS: Yes, we're going to get
into the show-and-tell. Dr.
Standish, you are the senior
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scientist for the Geoscience
Research Institute. Geoscience
Research Institute is out of
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California, southern California.
What are you doing these days at
the Geoscience Research
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Institute? DR. STANDISH: Well,
obviously, we're a research
institute, so that means that we
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engage in a fair amount of
research activity. We have major
projects going on in Peru, which
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may be surprising to some
people, studying the geology,
and also the fossils in one of
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the driest places on earth, and
particularly, fossil whales
there, which is particularly
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interesting. We also have a
major project going on with the
granites that are found there in
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southern California, asking
questions about how they formed.
So those would be two major
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projects that we're involved
with currently. CHRIS: Now, why
are you doing those projects?
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Are you just there to spend a
little time in Peru and be out
in the sun in southern
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California? Why are you doing
these projects? DR. STANDISH:
Well, obviously, none
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of these things is done for one
reason. But the ultimate reason
is to understand the past. We
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want to know what occurred to
produce those fossil whales.
What occurred to produce those
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large granite structures in
southern California? What's that
all about? What does it tell us
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about the history of the earth,
and possibly, how does it inform
our understanding of history as
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it's recounted in the Bible?
CHRIS: And that's very
interesting, because that's
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really where we ended. We kind
of left on a little bit of a
cliffhanger last week. We talked
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about this issue of nature,
observing in nature, and just as
a review to those who maybe
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didn't catch the show last week,
we talked about this issue of
natural selection, which a lot
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of people call "survival of the
fittest." And as we talked a
little, we actually saw that, in
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nature, we actually don't
observe this constant fight for
survival, but rather, we observe
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a harmony, an interaction. I
believe you called it an
interdependence. And what we saw
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in that interdependence, or
maybe let me ask you, Dr.
Standish, when we see that
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interdependence, the bee and the
flower working together, the
bacteria in the stomach, and a
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human being working together,
what do those things all point
to? What does this harmony point
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to? DR. STANDISH: Well,
ultimately, it points to a plan.
There was a plan that was in
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place, so that all these various
parts of nature would work
together in a coordinated way
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that benefits all of the
organisms that are involved.
It's a beautiful set of
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relationships that we see out
there. See, this is the
ecologist in me coming out. I
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love to see this. It is a
beautiful thing, a beautiful
thing, to see that wonderful
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cooperation that's going on
between organisms that's
necessary for our survival.
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CHRIS: And we kind of drew to a
conclusion last week, that
seeing that there's a plan,
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well, in order to have a plan,
there must be a planner, and
ultimately, that planner that
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has generated the plan is the
God of the Bible. DR. STANDISH:
That's certainly what
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I believe. CHRIS: Now, we've got
this harmony, plan, planner, and
you have some rocks there, and
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we're going to talk about those,
but we have a little bit of a
problem, Dr. Standish, or maybe
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I'll say, I have a little bit of
a problem, Dr. Standish. We see
that harmony, but we see death,
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we see dying, we see lions
chasing antelope. We see that
things aren't all harmonious.
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DR. STANDISH: And the lions
don't just chase the antelopes.
CHRIS: Yes. DR. STANDISH: They
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kill them and eat them. CHRIS:
What's going on there? DR.
STANDISH: What's going on
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there? This is a major question.
You know, most people look
around at the world and they
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understand, there's something
wrong here. There's a kind of
profound injustice in what's
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going on. I like cats, but I
also like rabbits, and you know,
rabbits, they're pretty harmless
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creatures - well, they can
scratch you - but, you know,
they're not doing anyone any
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harm, really, and yet, they are
the prey for different kinds of
cats and also eagles and other
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birds of prey; foxes, everything
seems to go after the poor
little rabbits. It just doesn't
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seem right. CHRIS: No. DR.
STANDISH: The good guy doesn't
win all the time. CHRIS: Yes.
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DR. STANDISH: And what the Bible
tells us, sort of, within the
Biblical world view, this
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problem of evil in nature is not
ignored. What we're told is that
this was not God's plan. When
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God did the creation, at the
beginning, it was very good.
Death was not part of that
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system. It's hard to understand
that. I'm a biologist. I can't
imagine an ecology working
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without death. But that's the
way it was initially. And then
human beings were left in
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charge. God said, you know, "You
will be my stewards," to human
beings. Human beings made the
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decision to go with a different
plan. And that's what we see
playing out today. CHRIS: And
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you know, not to make light of a
very important subject, but it
seems that that is kind of
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something that can be observed
throughout history, when human
beings are put in charge, we
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tend to kind of mess things up.
DR. STANDISH: Things sometimes
go wrong. CHRIS: Yes. So things
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go wrong, human beings choose a
plan other than God's plan. If
you're watching today and you
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have questions about this, we
actually did a whole series on
Noah, where we talk about this
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problem of sin and the entry of
sin. If you'd like to get that
program, you can go to our
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YouTube page,
YouTube.com/iiwcanada, and get
some in-depth answers. But Dr.
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Standish, we see sin, we see
death, we see the plan, the
creation, marred. However, with
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that death, that death has left
a record, a fossil record. And
even though death is a bad
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thing, it's our enemy - the
Bible says death is our enemy -
yet the same Bible that says
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that death is our enemy, in
Romans 8:28, says that God can
bring good out of bad things.
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And so we have the fossil
record, which is really, if we
lay it all out, just put it very
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plainly, the fossil record is a
record of death. DR. STANDISH:
Yes. CHRIS: However,
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this record of death plays into
this conversation we have on
origins. So let's talk about
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that a little bit. DR. STANDISH:
Sure, yeah. I'd also want to
point out that the Bible
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talks about death being
swallowed up in victory. And
that's that sort of great,
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divine justice that we look
forward to, that you know, God's
judgement is to raise people
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from the dead, take them to
heaven, do the new creation. It
sounds like a good kind of
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judgement to me. CHRIS: Yes. And
before we get to those rocks,
it's very interesting you say
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that, because we don't want to
leave people feeling very bad,
that God has a plan, and His
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goal is to get us back on that
plan, and that plan is a new
creation. One of my favourite
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authors talks about after the
new creation, uses this line
that I love. It says that after
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God makes this new creation,
there will beat one pulse of
harmony throughout the universe,
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and that sounds like what God's
original plan was, this harmony
of interdependence. And that's
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what God wants to get us back
to, this victory and this
harmony that He has for His
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creation. DR. STANDISH: It
certainly sounds like a
beautiful thing, doesn't it?
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CHRIS: Yes. So let's talk about
some. now, I don't want to call
them "rocks," but they may look
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like rocks; however, they are
fossils. And these fossils point
out some amazing things. Because
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often when we talk about
fossils, we may see these
fossils at a science museum or
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something like that, as evidence
of Darwinian evolution. However,
as a scientist, you may see some
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different things in this. DR.
STANDISH: You know, there's a
difference between data in
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science and interpretation. And
the standard interpretation of
fossils is that they show the
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evolutionary history of life.
Now, everybody agrees that
fossils are a record of things
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that lived in the past. Now, the
interesting thing about the
fossil record is that it's a
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little bit like a book, and you
can think of these layers of
rocks as being, like, pages in a
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book, one on top of the other,
or like a layer cake with
different things in there. And
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there are patterns in terms of
what appears on the different
pages or on the different levels
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of the fossil record. So one of
the things that I wanted to
point out to you was this: This
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is an organism called a
trilobite. CHRIS: A trilobite.
DR. STANDISH: A trilobite. Now,
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we might look at it and say,
"Oh, that looks like a fairly
simple organism," but these were
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not simple organisms any more
than a cricket or an insect, you
know, some other kind of insect
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might be a simple organism.
These trilobites are different
from other arthropods, like
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insects, but they seem to have
had some similarities with them
CHRIS: Okay. DR. STANDISH: Now,
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the interesting thing about
these is, as you come up through
the layers of rock, just as when
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you start turning the pages of a
book, you know how there's sort
of next to nothing on those
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first few pages? CHRIS: Yes. DR.
STANDISH: That's what it's like
in the fossil record, for some
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time. CHRIS: Okay. DR. STANDISH:
And then, all of a sudden, you
have these guys show
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up. CHRIS: Okay. DR. STANDISH:
And they appear. You don't see
organisms below them
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that look like they're slowly
turning into trilobites. The
trilobites just suddenly appear.
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And they have very complex eyes,
they had a complex system of
growth that allowed them to shed
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their exoskeletons as they grew.
They had complex nervous
systems. These were really,
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really complicated things. And
they show up in incredible
diversity. And they show up with
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a whole bunch of other
organisms, all in one layer of
rock that's called the Cambrian
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layer. CHRIS: Okay. DR.
STANDISH: This is something
that's called the Cambrian
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explosion. There are a few
fossils that you find
underneath, but they don't look
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like they are slowly evolving
into these organisms that you
see in that Cambrian layer. Just
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boom, all of a sudden, you have
huge diversity of organisms. You
may not have as many species as
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you have living today, but you
have whole groups of organisms
that simply are not known to be
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living today. We certainly
haven't found them anywhere. And
trilobites would be an example
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of these. Whole groups of
organisms that have disappeared.
But the point is, they show up
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all of a sudden, including,
interestingly enough, even
vertebrates. Now, not human
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beings. Human beings don't show
up, human fossils don't show up
in the Cambrian. But fishlike
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fossils do. And none of these
organisms do you see coming from
some sort of slow, Darwinian,
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evolutionary process. As you go
up to other layers in the fossil
record, you also see things
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suddenly appearing, birds, for
example, right at the top of a
layer called the Jurassic, that
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some might have heard of because
of a film called Jurassic Park.
CHRIS: Sure. DR. STANDISH: Right
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at the top of that layer, and
the bottom of the next layer
above, called the Cretaceous,
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all of a sudden, you have a lot
of different kinds of birds, and
they appear pretty much all over
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the world, all in that same
layer of rock. So sudden
appearance is something that you
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see in the fossil record. It is
essentially the opposite of what
Darwinian evolution predicts.
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CHRIS: Now, this is fascinating.
So I just took a visit out to
Drumheller, here in Canada. And
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Drumheller is the dinosaur
capital of the world, right here
in Canada. When we went out
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there to Drumheller in the
badlands, you can look out, and
you see this layering happening,
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you know, various colours,
various densities, various
different things. And what
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you're saying is, as you look at
the fossil record, you don't
have organisms underneath the, I
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believe you called it the
Cambrian layer, where the
trilobites are found, that are
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organisms that look like they're
becoming trilobites, organisms
becoming trilobites; they simply
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just appear. DR. STANDISH:
That's right. It's as if they
came from nowhere. But
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you see the same thing with
birds, you see the same thing
with other major groups of
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organisms. The appearance of
flowering plants in the fossil
record. Charles Darwin talks
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about it as an abominable
mystery. And he was well aware
of this problem. CHRIS: Yes.
00:16:49.74\00:16:57.75
DR. STANDISH: What he attributed
it to was problems with the
fossil record rather than
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problems with his theory, which
is an interesting thing. He
called it imperfection in the
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geologic record, geological
record. So that's an interesting
thing. Another thing that you
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see is sudden disappearance of
things. CHRIS: Okay. DR.
STANDISH: Things are very
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systematic in this. So for
example, this here is a little
piece of dinosaur bone. And
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dinosaurs, which we've already
talked about a little bit, they
appear in what are called
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mesozoic rocks. You can think of
the mesozoic as being like a
chapter in the book that these
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layers of rock make up. Then
they disappear at the top of the
mesozoic. At the same time,
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another kind of organism - this
is called an ammonite -
disappears as well. In fact, a
00:17:51.73\00:17:59.21
huge number of organisms
disappear. And we never see them
again. They don't live. they're
00:17:59.31\00:18:04.88
not found living today. There's
a big question about what caused
things to be sorted out in the
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way they are in the fossil
record. CHRIS: Yes. DR.
STANDISH: And to be perfectly
00:18:15.32\00:18:18.73
honest with you, I've listened
to lots of explanations. I've
listened to explanations that
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involve huge periods of time.
They don't work. I've listened
to explanations that involve
00:18:28.17\00:18:32.11
short periods of time. And of
course, those of us who believe
the Bible believe that the time
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is thousands of years, not
millions or billions of years.
And to be perfectly honest with
00:18:38.45\00:18:43.59
you, I haven't heard an
explanation that really accounts
for these kinds of patterns, the
00:18:43.69\00:18:48.72
sorting-out that we see in
there. However, the sudden
appearance does not go along
00:18:48.82\00:18:56.06
well with Darwinism. CHRIS:
Okay. DR. STANDISH: In addition
to that, when you look
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at these organisms, I mean, look
at this trilobite here. It's a
beautiful thing. These organisms
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look just as complicated, just
as elegant, just as beautiful as
the organisms that we see living
00:19:07.34\00:19:16.45
today. We don't see organisms
going from simple to complex. We
don't see organisms going from
00:19:16.55\00:19:25.76
just one kind to multiple kinds
as you go up through the fossil
record. What we see is sudden
00:19:25.86\00:19:36.74
appearance of complex, elegant,
beautiful creatures. CHRIS: And
so, sudden appearance, sudden
00:19:36.84\00:19:44.98
disappearance, but let's just
focus on the sudden appearance
of complex, beautiful creatures.
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You say you haven't. you've
heard lots of lectures, no
explanations. DR. STANDISH: I've
00:19:52.02\00:19:58.26
read lots of books, too. There
are explanations, but none of
them really fits. None of them
00:19:58.36\00:20:04.83
does an adequate job of truly
explaining why things are sorted
out so neatly in the fossil
00:20:04.93\00:20:15.38
record. Invoking huge periods of
time is not particularly helpful
for many reasons. And we could
00:20:15.48\00:20:25.39
talk about that, but it'd take a
long time to unpack, but just
let me give you one example.
00:20:25.49\00:20:29.49
CHRIS: Please. DR. STANDISH: If
you've ever been to the Grand
Canyon, or pretty much, probably
00:20:29.59\00:20:34.36
in Drumheller you can see this,
did you notice that the layers
were very flat there?
00:20:34.46\00:20:39.37
CHRIS: Yes. DR. STANDISH: Some
of those layers are supposed to
have gaps of time between them,
00:20:39.47\00:20:43.37
millions of years. Well, over
millions of years, things erode
away. That's how you're supposed
00:20:43.47\00:20:50.91
to get things like the Grand
Canyon, right? It's supposed to
have taken. I mean, now, I don't
00:20:51.01\00:20:55.68
believe that the Grand Canyon
took millions of years. But my
point is this: everybody
00:20:55.78\00:21:00.06
understands that there should be
erosion in there. You shouldn't
have nice, flat layers; they
00:21:00.16\00:21:04.66
should be eroded. CHRIS: Yes.
DR. STANDISH: Dramatically
eroded. But that's not what you
00:21:04.76\00:21:09.06
see. It doesn't look like the
time is there. CHRIS: So, what's
the explanation, then,
00:21:09.16\00:21:17.11
Doctor? DR. STANDISH: Well, I
wish I could. you know, I don't
want to give you a glib, simple
00:21:17.21\00:21:22.44
explanation. I believe that much
of the fossil record can
probably be accounted for by a
00:21:22.54\00:21:28.35
global catastrophe. Now, I'm
being very parsimonious, because
other scientists believe that
00:21:28.45\00:21:37.53
there were several global
catastrophes. So I'm merely
saying, I just think there was
00:21:37.63\00:21:41.73
probably one global catastrophe.
We call it Noah's flood. CHRIS:
Yes. DR. STANDISH: And
00:21:41.83\00:21:47.84
that may explain much of what we
see. The problem is, no one was
there. The account of the flood
00:21:47.94\00:22:01.38
that we have is the closest
thing that we have to a sort of
eyewitness account, or at least,
00:22:01.48\00:22:06.92
an account that was passed down
over time to modern people.
CHRIS: Yes. DR. STANDISH: But
00:22:07.02\00:22:16.13
you know, we see that account in
cultures all over the world. It
seems like it made a profound
00:22:16.23\00:22:21.64
impact on humanity. CHRIS: Yes.
So we're seeing this pattern,
and these patterns showing up in
00:22:21.74\00:22:29.54
the fossil records, patterns
that seem to point to some type
of catastrophe happening
00:22:29.64\00:22:37.02
worldwide. What are some of the
conclusions that we can draw
from these patterns that we're
00:22:37.12\00:22:42.89
seeing, and this question of
origins and how old are we
really? DR. STANDISH: Well,
00:22:42.99\00:22:49.86
there are a couple of points
that I pull out of this. First
of all, it's very interesting to
00:22:49.96\00:22:54.40
me that the Bible provides both
a coherent story of origins, or
account of origins, one that at
00:22:54.50\00:23:01.01
least provides an adequate
clause for what we see with
living things. And then it also
00:23:01.11\00:23:07.82
provides an account of a global
catastrophe - the flood - that
also may help us understand why
00:23:07.92\00:23:17.46
we find all of these fossils
stacked up as they are. Now, it
also leaves plenty of open
00:23:17.56\00:23:25.40
mysteries for us. CHRIS: Sure.
DR. STANDISH: We don't know why
it is that you only find the
00:23:25.50\00:23:30.74
dinosaur remains in the mesozoic
rocks. You know, why is that?
It's a very interesting and
00:23:30.84\00:23:38.48
mysterious thing. Maybe we'll
figure it out one day. Maybe
we'll have to wait until Jesus
00:23:38.58\00:23:44.99
comes. But, the thing that I
would point out is, these
patterns do not fit with the
00:23:45.09\00:23:53.93
Darwinian model. The Darwinian
model of slow, gradual change
over long periods of time is not
00:23:54.00\00:24:03.54
recorded in the fossil record.
CHRIS: And so saying that, you
know, it's very interesting,
00:24:03.64\00:24:08.88
Jesus made a statement one time.
He said that, as He was making
the triumphant entry, and the
00:24:08.98\00:24:15.92
Pharisees were telling Him to
quiet the people who were all
happy to see He was coming,
00:24:16.02\00:24:20.76
"Glory to God in the highest,"
and He says, "If I quiet them,
the rocks will cry out." And Dr.
00:24:20.86\00:24:28.80
Standish, it seems to me, as
you're talking about this, that
the fossil record - and I know
00:24:28.90\00:24:35.57
scientists wouldn't like for me
to call fossils "rocks" - but it
would seem to me that the rocks
00:24:35.67\00:24:41.51
are crying out, that our world -
oversimplifying things a little
bit - our world, me as a human
00:24:41.61\00:24:51.35
being, I'm not the product of
some accident or rearrangement
of atoms, but it seems that it
00:24:51.45\00:25:00.06
points to something. Dr.
Standish, what's it pointing to?
DR. STANDISH: Well, I would say
00:25:00.16\00:25:05.30
that it points towards. first of
all, it points backwards towards
a creation. These organisms that
00:25:05.40\00:25:12.84
lived in the past are just as
amazing as the organisms living
today. They didn't slowly come
00:25:12.94\00:25:18.21
into existence. So it points
back to the original creation.
And it also encourages us, then,
00:25:18.31\00:25:27.12
to look forward to the new
creation that the Bible talks
about. God says, "I will make
00:25:27.22\00:25:33.46
all things new." CHRIS: Dr.
Standish, it is hard to believe
we are out of time once again.
00:25:33.56\00:25:39.23
Thank you for sharing this. And
let's have a word of prayer,
thanking God that He has a plan,
00:25:39.33\00:25:47.21
and that plan is driving toward
a new creation, when all things
will be harmonious once again.
00:25:47.31\00:25:56.32
Let's pray. Heavenly Father, we
are so grateful that You are the
planner, that You had a plan,
00:25:56.42\00:26:03.79
and that plan is that each of us
would be a part of the new
creation in heaven where we
00:26:03.89\00:26:12.43
could spend eternity with You.
We thank You so much, in Jesus'
name, amen. DR. STANDISH: Amen.
00:26:12.53\00:26:20.01
#
00:26:34.39\00:26:35.79
CHRIS: My dear friends, how
exciting it is. The fossil
record, which is a record of
00:26:37.26\00:26:42.90
death, which is the enemy, yet
even the enemy, that record of
death, points to a God that has
00:26:43.00\00:26:54.54
a plan, and that plan is to
bring us back to the new
creation. Today, I'd like to
00:26:54.64\00:27:02.38
offer to you an authentic
fossil. I also want to offer to
you the Discover Bible Guide.
00:27:02.48\00:27:09.69
The Discover Bible Guide will
help you get to know the
planner, Jesus Christ. Here's
00:27:09.79\00:27:15.76
the information you need
to receive today's offer.
00:27:15.86\00:27:20.84
#
00:28:18.36\00:28:19.49
CHRIS: Dr. Standish, thank you
so much for being with us today.
DR. STANDISH: Thanks for having
00:28:20.43\00:28:23.47
me. CHRIS: Dear friends, join us
again next week as we continue
this discussion, how old is old?
00:28:23.57\00:28:32.14
Until then, remember, it is
written: "Man shall not live by
bread alone, but by every word
00:28:32.24\00:28:39.01
that proceeds
from the mouth of God."
00:28:39.11\00:28:41.82
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
00:28:43.49\00:28:44.95