It Is Written How Old is Old #1
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>>Announcer: It has
stood the test of time.
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God's book, The Bible
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Still relevant in
today's complex world
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It Is Written
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Sharing messages of
hope around the world!
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CHRIS: The great questions of
life - philosophy, science -
many have asked the question,
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"How old are we?" Not when we
were born in a hospital, but
really, what is the origin of
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all things? I am thrilled to
have with me in studio Dr. Tim
Standish. Dr. Standish is a
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friend of mine and he is a
friend of the show. Dr.
Standish, I want to welcome you
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again to It Is Written to have a
discussion on origins. DR.
STANDISH: Well, thank you, it's
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great to be back. CHRIS: Now,
Dr. Standish, for those who are
watching maybe for the first
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time and not familiar with who
you are, you are a senior
scientist with the Geoscience
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Research Institute. You have a
B.S. in zoology and a Master's
in biology. Then you have a
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Ph.D. in environmental biology
and public policy from George
Mason University down in
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Virginia in the States. DR.
STANDISH: That's correct, yeah.
CHRIS: And that's a lot and a
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big mouthful. But maybe just as
a bit of a review, what is it
that the Geoscience Research
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Institute has dedicated itself
to? What is the mission and what
are you doing with the
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Geoscience Research Institute?
DR. STANDISH: Well, the mission
of the Geoscience Research
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Institute is to seek out
understandings that make sense
of the Bible and science. Now,
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most of the time, if you look at
most things, the Bible and
science are not necessarily in
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conflict with one another. Clear
statements of scripture really
don't conflict with what science
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has discovered. Occasionally,
you find things that are
remarkable congruences,
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particularly in archaeology.
However, there are also some
areas, a surprisingly small
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number of areas, where there's
some tension between the way
that scientists, at least
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traditionally, have been
interpreting the data from
nature, and the clear claims
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that are made in Scripture. So
where that tension exists is
really where we are interested.
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There's something interesting
going on there, and what do we
do with it? We're all
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Christians. We're also all Ph.D.
scientists who remain active in
our disciplines. So we sometimes
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struggle with this. Sometimes we
think we come up with good
answers, sometimes we have to
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say, "You know what? We don't
have answers yet. We live by
faith, as all Christians do."
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CHRIS: Yes, yes. Any exciting
project that you're working on
right now? DR. STANDISH: Well, I
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mean, a number of things that
I've been working on. Probably
the thing that I'm most excited
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about is a paper that one of the
graduate students I worked with
published as a senior author -
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obviously, I'm on it - that
deals with something that seems
very obscure, I know, but it's
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the mating habits of a certain
kind of sea turtle that's
endangered. This particular one
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isn't super endangered, but we
study a species that is not in
critical danger, and see if we
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can't find out things there that
then we can apply with those
that are more threatened. And we
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were able to use molecular
genetics as a way of figuring
out some very interesting things
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about the mating habits of these
sea turtles. CHRIS: Wow, that is
very, very fascinating. You
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know, Dr. Standish, as a
scientist, you've made a
decision, and that is, your
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decision is that you believe
there is a divine force, God,
who has caused creation. DR.
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STANDISH: Yes. CHRIS: And this
is a big question that could
take long hours for us to go
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through. But fundamentally, why
is it that you have come to that
conclusion, which is vastly
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different than a great deal of
the scientific community? DR.
STANDISH: Well, my first
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question back was going to be,
"How long is this show?" There
are several reasons that I would
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draw to your attention. First of
all, of all of the accounts of
origins, to me as a scientist,
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the one that makes the most
sense is the Biblical account of
origins. That doesn't mean that
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I don't recognize that there are
some tensions in there. There
are some difficulties. And I
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don't have all of the answers.
But, the tensions with other
views of how things have worked
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out are so much greater, that I
have faith that the tensions
that exist there between the
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claims of scripture in terms of
origins, the relatively small
number of issues offer greater
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hope of resolution to me than
the massive problems that I see,
particularly with Darwinism, but
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also, belief systems like
theistic evolution and so on.
You know, we don't have all the
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answers on these things, which
is what makes them interesting.
Sometimes I speak at churches
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and I meet people who do have
all the answers, and they must
live boring, sad lives. We don't
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have all the answers. But I go
with the Bible because it makes
rational sense and because it
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does line up with the data very
well. Of course, that's
obviously. there's still a step
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of faith there. CHRIS: Yes. DR.
STANDISH: One other reason is
that the Bible gives hope. It
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gives us hope for the future,
the new creation. It also gives
us hope in the moment as well.
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There is a creator God. He does
love us. He is wise. He cares
about us. And I believe that He
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is active in the lives of human
beings and in His creation.
CHRIS: And so from your
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observation, you've come to this
conclusion that the Biblical
model is the best model. And so
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here's the question that I have
for you. You know, when you look
out in the world, when you read,
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there are many people that talk
about, write about origins. And
for a lack of a better word, the
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seeming go-to model is an
evolutionary model that takes
millions of years to produce
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complex organisms, and then
eventually, human beings. Why do
you have a problem with that?
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DR. STANDISH: My primary problem
is that ultimately, I don't see
it as being a scientific
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undertaking. There are a number
of reasons, again, for that.
Number one, we see this kind of
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theory from long before the
emergence of modern science. So
for example, if you go back to
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the Roman writer, Titus
Lucretius Carus, he actually
lays out a theory of evolution
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in which the atoms move around
randomly without any guidance
from the gods, and through
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unguided interactions, they form
the earth, the sea, the sky, and
the generation of living
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creatures. I'm paraphrasing him
in English; he wrote in Latin.
And he died about 55 B.C. So
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before the time of Christ, these
ideas were around. They didn't
have the methods of trying to
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date things that we have today.
But another thing that really
bothers me as a scientist is
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that everything, all the really
heavy lifting, is put way back
in the past where it's
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unobservable and untestable. So
a lot of what is postulated to
have happened is philosophically
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necessary, given the
presuppositions that are being
started with. But they are not
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evidence-based things. Now,
there is some evidence out there
that can be well interpreted
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within that Darwinian model. So
we don't want to pretend that
that's not the case. However, I
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believe that the majority of the
evidence is not well interpreted
within that model, and is far
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better interpreted within the
view that is presented in
scripture. CHRIS: Okay. Now, I
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need to kind of put my mind
around this. You know, when I
grew up, I grew up in school
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being taught that this model of
millions and sometimes in
conversation even of billions of
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years, and the catchphrase for
this model is "survival of the
fittest." I grew up learning
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that. So tell me, I mean, what's
the problem? You don't see
survival of the fittest? I'm
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pulling from your comments. Why
aren't you seeing survival of
the fittest? DR. STANDISH: Well,
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let me rephrase that slightly.
Charles Darwin came up with a
theory of evolution based on the
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idea of natural selection. Now,
natural selection was kind of
paraphrased as "survival of the
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fittest," okay? And this is a
term that's commonly used. And
it does capture some of the
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meaning of it. The idea is that
certain individuals produce
offspring, and others don't. And
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that is not a purely random
thing. The ones that produce
more offspring have something
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about them that can be inherited
that is passed onto their
offspring that somehow causes
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them to make more babies. CHRIS:
Yes. DR. STANDISH: So he who has
the most babies wins, in
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this model. It can be really
boiled down to that. And
obviously, there is some truth
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to natural selection. The
question is, does natural
selection really explain what we
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see in the world today? What
Charles Darwin said was that you
started out with one organism,
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and it developed variations, and
certain variations were
superior, or you know, were
00:13:18.26\00:13:24.40
selected above others. And as
these different organisms sort
of split apart, you slowly got
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many, many, many different kinds
of organisms. A pattern, by the
way, that is almost the opposite
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of what you see in the fossil
record. But we can talk about
that later. That's a big topic.
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CHRIS: We're going to have a
couple of shows on the fossil
record. DR. STANDISH: However,
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in this view, you have organisms
that are competing with one
another for survival all the
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time. And everything is in a
struggle to the death. And the
most closely-related things are
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in the most intense struggle to
the death with one another,
because you know, you are a
00:14:07.98\00:14:15.42
human being, and I'm a human
being, so we eat the same kind
of food, and in this Darwinian
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view, there's only so much of
that food, so we have to fight
over it to see who gets it, and
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whoever wins gets to eat and
gets to breed. CHRIS: Okay. And
so this phrase, "survival of the
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fittest," the more proper term
in the evolutionary model is
"natural selection." Now, you
00:14:34.87\00:14:40.48
said something, and I want to
spend just a moment kind of
digressing just a little bit.
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You said there are certain
instances where natural
selection is happening. We can
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observe this? DR. STANDISH:
Well, yes. Babies that are
stillborn don't get to have
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more babies. So if there's some
genetic reason that, you know, a
child is dying before it reaches
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the age that it can reproduce,
obviously, that's natural
selection at work. What natural
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selection seems to do in nature
is kind of keep things the same.
It stops wild variations that
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are lethal to that particular
species of organism. CHRIS: And
you just said something now
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that's got my mind kind of
exploding with questions. You
said natural selection actually
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narrows things. DR. STANDISH:
Well, it keeps things stable.
CHRIS: Keeps things
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stable. However, when we have
this natural selection keeping
things stable, it seems, in
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evolutionary explanations, that
natural selection is actually
used to explain the development
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of organisms into another
organism. DR. STANDISH: There
are really two parts of Charles
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Darwin's theory of evolution
that you have to understand to
understand how this all works
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together. You start out with
variation. If you look at
organisms like you and me, we're
00:16:15.07\00:16:22.34
a bit different. We're both very
handsome, but a little bit
different. And so that variation
00:16:22.44\00:16:29.38
is then acted on by natural
selection. Now, most of the
time, what natural selection
00:16:29.48\00:16:37.49
seems to do, what it's been
observed to do, is kind of keep
things the same. It stops these
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wild variations. According to
Darwin's theory, occasionally,
there's a variation that makes
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you have more babies. And
whatever that variation is, it
could be, you know, having a
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larger nose, or having blond
hair and blue eyes, I don't know
what sort of things make human
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beings have more babies, but
something genetic makes you have
more babies, and then that's
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passed on, and natural selection
kind of then moves towards that
new kind of standard. So the
00:17:14.73\00:17:23.17
idea is that natural selection
can sort of move an organism in
a certain direction, even though
00:17:23.27\00:17:30.51
there's no goal in mind. It's
just a matter of a certain
variation making more babies. So
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that's how it's supposed to
work, at least. CHRIS: And why
do you think that that's not how
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it works? And when you observe
nature, you're coming to a
different conclusion than
00:17:45.83\00:17:50.63
Darwinian evolution. DR.
STANDISH: Well, certainly from a
scientific perspective, it just
00:17:50.73\00:17:55.47
doesn't look like it works.
First of all, when we try doing
selection on organisms, so dogs,
00:17:55.57\00:18:05.11
for example, what we find is
that we can get amazing
variability in dogs. You've got
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little Chihuahuas and big Great
Danes and so you've got this
incredible variety in dogs.
00:18:11.95\00:18:21.00
However, you don't have
elephant-sized dogs, and you
don't have dogs turning into
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watermelons or something like
that. There's a limit on the
variability. And once you hit
00:18:27.44\00:18:34.74
that limit, you just don't seem
to be able to go beyond it.
CHRIS: That's very interesting,
00:18:34.84\00:18:40.25
and I spent a few years learning
about growing apples. And I knew
a man in Wisconsin who had an
00:18:40.35\00:18:47.89
orchard. He grew 450 varieties
of apples. And it was a
fascinating thing. He had apples
00:18:47.99\00:18:53.33
called Coconut Crunch, which had
the crunch of a coconut, but at
the end of the day, it was still
00:18:53.43\00:18:57.60
an apple. He had another apple
called Hawaii that had a little
tinge of pineapple flavour to
00:18:57.70\00:19:03.24
it. However, it wasn't a
pineapple, it was still an
apple. So what you're saying is,
00:19:03.34\00:19:07.24
when we observe, we see variety,
but there's a limit to that
variety. You don't have a dog
00:19:07.34\00:19:13.75
becoming an elephant. DR.
STANDISH: It just doesn't work
that way. It's certainly not
00:19:13.85\00:19:20.09
something that we've observed.
Now, I sometimes use roses as an
example. You can have red roses,
00:19:20.19\00:19:28.20
you can have yellow roses, you
can have white roses, and you
can have all sorts of variations
00:19:28.30\00:19:34.24
in between, because roses have
the genetic potential to make
those different colours in
00:19:34.34\00:19:40.94
there. So a pink rose has just a
smaller amount of the red
pigment produced. Amazing
00:19:41.04\00:19:47.02
variety within roses. But you
don't have blue roses, genuinely
blue roses. CHRIS: Yes, right,
00:19:47.12\00:19:56.12
right. DR. STANDISH: Now, I've
actually tried to make blue
roses. I actually grew something
00:19:56.22\00:20:02.80
called a blue rose. It was a
very sick kind of rose, not a
happy rose, and it certainly was
00:20:02.90\00:20:09.84
not blue. Not blue like our
shirts. The way you make a blue
rose is by either using
00:20:09.94\00:20:16.54
Photoshop to photograph it and
then turn it blue, or perhaps,
you know, dyeing it blue in some
00:20:16.64\00:20:23.62
way, or, you can take a gene for
making a blue pigment from
another flower and put it into a
00:20:23.72\00:20:32.46
rose, and you can actually do
that. That's engineering. It's
guided. It's intelligent design.
00:20:32.56\00:20:39.30
So we know that ultimately,
variability like this, the kind
of sort of big jumps in
00:20:39.40\00:20:47.64
variability that you've got to
have if you're going to evolve a
rose into, let's say, an iris or
00:20:47.74\00:20:55.65
something, that those don't
happen when we do artificial
selection; why would we expect
00:20:55.75\00:21:01.59
that they happen when you do
natural selection, for which
there is no guide? CHRIS: No,
00:21:01.69\00:21:06.80
no. So when we look at it, maybe
a word that we could use is,
there's harmony rather than this
00:21:06.90\00:21:14.54
fighting for survival. What do
you see there? DR. STANDISH:
Well, there is amazing
00:21:14.64\00:21:22.61
harmony in nature. And frankly,
the idea of survival of the
fittest, in my opinion, is quite
00:21:22.71\00:21:29.35
a corrosive view of nature.
Biology is not in a constant
state of war. You know, we're
00:21:29.45\00:21:39.43
not in a gigantic competition
for mates and food with each
other. We have a good, friendly,
00:21:39.53\00:21:48.17
cooperative relationship. But if
you look at nature in general,
that's the way it works, and in
00:21:48.27\00:21:53.31
fact, that's the way it has to
work. Think about bees and
flowers. They are not in a
00:21:53.41\00:22:00.15
competition with one another for
survival; they're cooperating
with one another. The flower is
00:22:00.25\00:22:06.92
producing pollen that it wants
the bee to carry for it to
another flower, and it is also
00:22:07.02\00:22:15.06
producing nectar that then feeds
the bee and rewards the bee for
doing it. So everybody comes out
00:22:15.16\00:22:22.44
on top. Another example would be
the fungus that grows in
association with the roots of
00:22:22.54\00:22:30.15
plants. CHRIS: Mmhmm. DR.
STANDISH: This is an amazing,
amazing relationship that's
00:22:30.25\00:22:37.12
there. They're not at war with
each other at all. The plant
supplies sugar, the fungus
00:22:37.22\00:22:42.19
supplies minerals, it increases
the surface area of the roots,
it can absorb more water. And by
00:22:42.29\00:22:51.13
the way, it's also been found
that plants can signal using the
fungus between one plant and
00:22:51.23\00:22:56.57
another. This is remarkable.
Human beings ourselves. You
know, there are more non-human
00:22:56.67\00:23:04.95
cells in a human body than there
are human cells. Now, that's
because, to a large degree,
00:23:05.05\00:23:13.09
bacterial cells are much smaller
than the average human cell. But
in our gut, we have all kinds of
00:23:13.19\00:23:20.66
different bacteria that live in
there and help us. Without those
bacteria, we probably couldn't
00:23:20.76\00:23:28.04
survive. So we have a beautiful
cooperative, interdependent
relationship with all of these
00:23:28.14\00:23:36.24
organisms that live on us and in
us, and without them, we can
become very ill. CHRIS: And
00:23:36.34\00:23:43.25
without that cooperation, and a
model that requires warring for
survival, in fact, it would seem
00:23:43.35\00:23:51.96
to do almost the opposite, in
that you would have nothing
survive because you would not
00:23:52.06\00:23:57.00
have this interdependence. DR.
STANDISH: "A kingdom divided
against itself cannot stand," to
00:23:57.10\00:24:02.00
quote Jesus Christ Himself. Yes,
if all of nature was at war with
everything else, life could not
00:24:02.10\00:24:13.01
exist, or at least, it certainly
doesn't look as if life could
exist. And irrespective of
00:24:13.11\00:24:19.52
whether it could exist or not,
what we actually observe in
nature is, the vast majority of
00:24:19.62\00:24:26.39
the time, amazing cooperation
and not some kind of fight to
the death for survival.
00:24:26.49\00:24:34.14
CHRIS: And so, having said that,
and I'll use this word "harmony"
again, this harmony and
00:24:34.24\00:24:41.64
interdependence, as a scientist,
as a zoologist, a biologist, an
environmental biologist, and as
00:24:41.74\00:24:50.99
you observe nature, and we've
given several examples - roses,
bacteria - what does this all
00:24:51.09\00:24:58.69
point to for you? DR. STANDISH:
To me, it points towards a plan.
00:24:58.79\00:25:04.40
Imagine a factory, let's say. If
you're going to produce
something in a factory, there
00:25:04.50\00:25:12.27
has to be a plan, and all sorts
of different systems have to
come together and work together
00:25:12.37\00:25:17.21
in a cooperative way. We know
that that's how things work.
When we look at nature, we see
00:25:17.31\00:25:24.35
something vastly more beautiful
than a factory or anything that
a human being has made. Why
00:25:24.45\00:25:33.26
would we interpret it
differently than we do something
as ugly as a factory? Nothing
00:25:33.36\00:25:41.34
against factories, of course.
CHRIS: No, no, sure, sure. DR.
STANDISH: But they do illustrate
00:25:41.44\00:25:44.24
an important point. Nature
requires a plan to work, a plan
for that cooperation. And
00:25:44.34\00:25:55.02
without a plan, there would be
nothing. CHRIS: And I don't want
make too big of a jump, Dr.
00:25:55.12\00:26:03.96
Standish, but if there's a plan,
it would seem to me to indicate
that there is a planner. DR.
00:26:04.06\00:26:12.03
STANDISH: That's right. Somebody
designed a plan. CHRIS: . that
generates the plan. DR.
00:26:12.13\00:26:15.27
STANDISH: Yes. CHRIS: And as you
observe, and as you ask this
question, and as you see,
00:26:15.37\00:26:20.98
there's design, there's a plan,
which must mean there's a
designer or a planner.
00:26:21.08\00:26:27.22
Ultimately, in your mind, who is
that planner or that designer?
DR. STANDISH: Well, that is
00:26:27.32\00:26:34.49
Jesus Christ. And probably the
most amazing thing about history
to me is, it's indisputable that
00:26:34.59\00:26:45.87
Jesus Christ existed. Jesus
Christ came down, became part of
His creation, and demonstrated
00:26:45.97\00:26:55.41
His power over the creation. And
this is a matter of historical
record. It's not fanciful
00:26:55.51\00:27:02.45
stories; it's an actual
historical record that we have
of this occurring. To go with
00:27:02.55\00:27:10.53
any other idea is simply a
denial of history. So I'm very
pleased to not deny history and
00:27:10.63\00:27:21.60
to accept a view that it makes
sense and is beautiful. CHRIS:
And so Dr. Standish, we
00:27:21.70\00:27:29.21
are unfortunately out of time
once again. But what a beautiful
thing. Nature demonstrates there
00:27:29.31\00:27:37.79
is a plan, and a plan requires
a planner, and that planner is
00:27:37.89\00:27:44.43
Jesus Christ. DR. STANDISH:
Amen. CHRIS: Let's pray. Lord,
we thank You that there is a
00:27:44.53\00:27:50.60
plan, that You are that planner,
and that You have a plan for
each and every one of us. We
00:27:50.70\00:27:58.37
thank You so much.
In Jesus' name, amen.
00:27:58.47\00:28:00.81
#
00:28:04.58\00:28:05.78
My dear friends, what a
phenomenal thing it is to know
that there's a plan, and behind
00:28:07.52\00:28:14.76
that plan, there is a planner,
and that planner is God, and He
has a plan for your life. Today,
00:28:14.86\00:28:20.90
I'd like to offer you to the
book Beyond Imagination, a book
by Dr. James Gibson, the
00:28:20.96\00:28:26.17
director of the Geoscience
Research Institute. In addition
to that, maybe you want to learn
00:28:26.27\00:28:32.74
more about how to enter into a
relationship with that planner
Jesus Christ. I'd like to also
00:28:32.84\00:28:42.18
offer to you the "Discover
Bible" lessons which will take
you on a journey of discovering
00:28:42.28\00:28:47.16
a relationship with Him. Here's
the information you need to
receive today's offers.
00:28:47.26\00:28:52.76
#
00:29:34.77\00:29:35.60
CHRIS: Dr. Standish, thank you
so much for being with us today.
DR. STANDISH: Well, thanks so
00:29:36.74\00:29:40.14
much for having me. CHRIS: Dear
friend, I want to invite you to
join us again next week as Dr.
00:29:40.24\00:29:45.68
Standish and I continue our
discussion on origins. Until
then, remember, it is written:
00:29:45.78\00:29:53.15
"Man shall not live by bread
alone, but by every word that
proceeds from the mouth of God."
00:29:53.25\00:29:59.73
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
00:30:00.80\00:30:00.83