Participants: Chris Holland
Series Code: IIWC
Program Code: IIWC201530A
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00:01 Our Land Glorious and Free -Liberty Under Fire #2
00:05 Our Land Glorious and Free -Liberty Under Fire #2 00:10 Our Land Glorious and Free -Liberty Under Fire #2 00:15 Our Land Glorious and Free -Liberty Under Fire #2 00:19 Our Land Glorious and Free -Liberty Under Fire #2 00:24 Our Land Glorious and Free -Liberty Under Fire #2 00:28 Our Land Glorious and Free -Liberty Under Fire #2 00:34 Our Land Glorious and Free -Liberty Under Fire #2 00:40 Our Land Glorious and Free -Liberty Under Fire #2 00:45 Our Land Glorious and Free -Liberty Under Fire #2 00:50 Our Land Glorious and Free -Liberty Under Fire #2 01:27 > 01:31 >>Announcer: It has stood the test of time. 01:34 God's book, The Bible 01:38 Still relevant in today's complex world 01:44 It Is Written 01:46 Sharing messages of hope around the world! 01:57 > 01:59 CHRIS: Religious freedom. How can we all be so different, yet get along? It is the 02:04 foundational principle for any society around the world. Today joining me in the studio to 02:12 discuss the issue of religious freedom is Barry Bussey. Barry, welcome to It Is Written. 02:17 BARRY: Great to be here, Chris, for sure. CHRIS: You know, Barry, I always want to call you 02:20 Dr. Bussey. You have a number of degrees. You have an undergraduate degree in 02:25 theology; three master's degrees: constitutional law, political science, and peace and 02:31 conflict studies; and in fact, you're actually currently studying for a doctoral degree 02:37 at this time. BARRY: Mmhmm. CHRIS: You are currently the director of legal affairs with 02:42 the Canadian Council of Christian Charities doing some exciting work. Now, Barry, if 02:47 people wanted to learn about the exciting work you're doing on the fronts of religious freedom, 02:51 where can they find out more information? BARRY: Well, just go to my blog at 02:56 LawAndReligion.org, and that will take you right in there. CHRIS: Now, on top of all of 03:02 that, what makes you so special, Barry, is that you are a native Newfoundlander. BARRY: Yes, I'm 03:07 from the Rock. CHRIS: Yes, love the Rock. I'm going to be doing some lectures there in the fall. 03:12 Wonderful people, wonderful place. Both my wife and I enjoy it immensely. Now, Barry, 03:21 getting to the issue of religious freedom. BARRY: Mmhmm. CHRIS: You recently wrote an 03:25 article in the National Post that was featured about the issue of religious freedom. 03:31 BARRY: Mmhmm. CHRIS: So let's talk about this article a little bit. What were you dealing with 03:36 in this article? Why were you dealing with it? BARRY: Okay. Currently, what's going on right 03:40 now with the change in government, the government is looking at all the various 03:45 policies of the previous government and see whether or not it's something it wants to 03:49 continue or change, and so forth. And one of those happens to deal with the Office of 03:53 Religious Freedom, which was started by the Harper government back some years ago. And Dr. 04:01 Andrew Bennett is our ambassador for religious freedom and has been going around the world just 04:07 highlighting the importance of religious freedom for those countries and those areas where 04:13 religious persecution is a major issue. What is interesting - and I should point 04:21 out that religious freedom. Dr. Brian Grim down in Maryland has studied the economic effects, 04:31 for example, on religious freedom, and he's found that countries where there's a lot of 04:36 religious freedom, there's actually a very prominent. economy is going 04:43 well, a lot more freedom in other areas. CHRIS: Yes. BARRY: And so Dr. Bennett has 04:49 been going around the world representing Canada, and I think admirably. In fact, even Prime 04:55 Minister Trudeau has mentioned how great the work has been accomplished by Dr. Bennett. And 05:04 so currently, there's this discussion as to whether this Office of Religious Freedom will 05:07 continue. There's a big debate. Dr. Bennett refers to the issue of religious freedom as kind of 05:14 a blind spot in diplomatic relations. And it's been something that scholars have 05:19 been picking up on in many ways. What happens is, is that there's some folk who are of the view 05:25 that religion doesn't really matter when you're dealing with international affairs. However, 05:32 as I pointed out in that article - and I encourage your viewers to look it up and you 05:37 can look it up through my blog as well - is that religion has always been an issue of 05:46 international relations, even though many people tend to ignore it. I gave a quote in 05:53 there - two quotes - from two different people, one from John Kerry. John Kerry said that if 05:58 he were to go back to college today, he would take religious studies, because so much of his 06:05 work as Secretary of State deals with religious issues, different religious groups not getting 06:12 along and so forth. And he feels in his own self a lack of understanding, that would be 06:21 very helpful in his diplomatic work. Jimmy Carter, when he was involved in the peace 06:28 negotiations between Egypt and Israel back in the late '70s, 1978, he found that. he said 06:37 that. in a book recently called Religion: The Missing Dimension of Statecraft, he wrote in there 06:47 that if he did not be sensitive. if he was not sensitive to the issue of religion - because both 06:57 Menachem Begin and Anwar Sadat - Sadat of Egypt, Begin of Israel - if he was not sensitive 07:07 to the fact of their own. these men and their religious sensibilities, he doubts very 07:11 much he would have been all that successful in arriving at this peace treaty. So religion is 07:19 extremely important. And a lot of people look at it and say, "Well, you know, it's a waste of 07:24 money." Well, no, it's not a waste of money. The reality is, there is serious persecution 07:29 going on around the world because of religion. I mean, we look at all of the various 07:33 fights going on in the Middle East right now, and a lot of it is religiously-motivated. And so 07:40 we need to understand. We need to actually. you know, the saying has always been, you 07:46 know, "You need to walk in the moccasins of somebody for a couple of weeks to be able to 07:51 understand their position." CHRIS: Yes. BARRY: And in many ways, we need to do that on an 07:55 international level to understand what's happening so we can learn to get along. And 08:02 that's what's extremely important. We're on this one piece of real estate we call 08:06 Earth. There's a lot of opposition amongst a lot of different groups. And what ends 08:12 up happening is, is that people - and those of us here in the West who we think we've got 08:16 everything figured out, and when we go over to those countries, we try to say, "Okay, well, we. 08:20 you need to accept, you know, democracy, and you need to accept all of these things," 08:25 well, if you're not speaking to these people in a language that they understand, all of your 08:31 discussion about all of your various freedoms and your human rights and all of these things 08:35 may be very formed to their understanding, and you need to be speaking in a language that 08:41 they can comprehend. And so I think that's extremely important and why I think it's important 08:46 to have the Office of Religious Freedom. It's done great work. Everyone admits it's done great 08:52 work. And I think it ought to continue. CHRIS: And you know, one of the things that's 08:55 interesting, I read that article and then I read. sometimes you learn a lot by reading the 09:00 comments that people made. BARRY: Mmhmm. CHRIS: And there was one individual that was 09:04 particularly critical of the article, talking about that this was simply an office for the 09:08 spreading of Christianity. But the Office of Religious Freedom is about all religious peoples, 09:15 all religious groups, and the protection of those groups. Is that correct? BARRY: Oh, 09:19 absolutely, absolutely. In fact, the Office goes to great pains to ensure that, look, this is 09:25 not simply an issue of. or an office for spreading of Christianity. But you see, this 09:32 is part of the problem. That tells me as well that there's a lack of understanding of our own 09:39 history, because if you look back at the history of the West, the West has been founded in a 09:46 big way as a result of the religious struggles that occurred at the time of the 09:50 Reformation. And it was. it has been a profound development in the history of mankind on this 09:59 earth to allow. to have this society where you could have many different religious groups 10:05 and still have civil peace. The democratic project is one that has been fundamentally affected 10:13 by the concept of religious freedom. Former Chief Justice Brian Dickson, in the Supreme 10:20 Court of Canada decision Big M Drug Mart makes the statement that religious freedom - or 10:26 words to this effect - that it is a. in many ways, he says, a prototypical right by that it's 10:35 the idea that it was the forerunner to other rights. Because when you think about it, 10:40 when you allow religious freedom, you allow freedom of speech. You allow individuals to 10:46 be able to speak ideas that someone else may not agree with. CHRIS: Absolutely. BARRY: But 10:50 you give them the right. You know, Voltaire, who certainly was not a religious individual. 10:56 CHRIS: No. BARRY: .very funny character, and you know, had a great sense of humour, I mean by 11:01 that. And you know, he said, "Look, I may not agree with what you say, but I will give my life 11:10 in support of ensuring that you continue to say what it is you say." In other words, it is so 11:17 important to have freedom of speech, that even though I disagree with you, you ought to 11:21 continue. So both individuals who are atheists, as Voltaire was, those who are religious in 11:28 the West, have understood the importance of allowing freedom of speech. The other thing is, 11:33 we've got freedom of assembly. Allowing religious communities to be able to go ahead and have 11:39 their meetings without any fear and concern, "Oh, is there a conspiracy against the 11:45 government?" No. We have understood the importance of freedom of assembly, freedom of 11:50 association, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, to be able to carry on, and you can speak 11:56 that message wherever you want to go. This TV program is part of that whole idea. CHRIS: Yes. 12:02 BARRY: And in many ways, freedom of religion has been that prototypical right that has led 12:08 to other rights. And it has been a wonderful blessing that we all have enjoyed the ability to live 12:17 in a free country. And the world is wanting to come because. well, part of the reason why is 12:24 because of freedom and because of religious freedom. So understanding that history, 12:30 understanding that background, is extremely important, and it's why it needs to continue. 12:35 CHRIS: And I want to dwell there for a moment, because you talked about the freedom of religion, 12:42 the Chief Justice calling it a prototypical right. And I want to dwell there for just a 12:47 moment, and taking those words "prototypical right." What you're saying is that freedom of 12:51 religion actually comes before any other rights, so to speak. It actually, for lack of a 12:58 better word - and you correct me if I'm wrong - it kind of sets the path to the other rights we 13:03 enjoy through the Charter. BARRY: That has been our experience. And it's not that, 13:07 you know, only religious freedom would allow other rights; but the experience that we've had 13:13 has been that when you have allowed religious freedom, this has been the by-product. The 13:19 by-product has been these other freedoms. Now, there's an argument being made right now in 13:25 the legal community that says, "Well, you know, we don't even need religious freedom in the 13:28 Constitution. Why do we have it? I mean, we have freedom of speech, of expression, in the 13:34 Constitution; we've got freedom of association. We don't need to have in the Constitution 13:42 religious freedom." And when I hear these arguments being made now, it strikes me, is, there's 13:51 a lack of understanding, perhaps, a lack of appreciation for the history that has gotten 13:59 us to where we are. CHRIS: Yes. BARRY: The history has been that religious freedom came first. 14:05 And the history has been, that has opened up - or at least, in our modern era, in the era of 14:11 the Reformation, the whole experience that has gone through. Now, you know, you look 14:19 at many different experiences of freedom, for example, the American Revolution versus the 14:27 French Revolution. The French Revolution, many would say, is a very atheistic revolution. The 14:32 American Revolution would say. or a lot of historians would say, the American 14:36 Revolution and the differences between the two countries that, in the American mindset, there 14:42 was a real sense that religion and the experience of religion, having the ability to be free 14:50 and worship as you please, was a big motivating factor. So I mean, yes, you can come at it 14:57 from a religious view, you can come at it from a nonreligious view, but nevertheless, history 15:02 is history, it is what it is. And if we, according to Dr. Grim, if we give countries 15:11 religious freedom, then all of these other freedoms kind of go with it, including the freedom 15:17 to have a free market, to be involved in industry and all the rest of it. CHRIS: And something 15:24 that I think that's very important - because we talked about. we began with the 15:28 conversation on religious freedom and its influence on international communities. 15:34 BARRY: Mmhmm. CHRIS: And now we've drawn this back to the individual. And something that I 15:38 don't want to be glossed over or missed by our viewer is, you talked about atheists, 15:43 agnostics, people who. secular. People who have maybe no "religious", quote-unquote, 15:50 belief system. BARRY: In fact, they often call them the "nons" right now. CHRIS: Yes. What's 15:54 very important is, when we talk about this Office of Religious Freedom, or religious liberty, 16:01 or religious freedom, we can often misinterpret that, that maybe it would be even better 16:07 called is the "freedom to believe as you wish", because the atheist, the agnostic, the 16:13 Muslim, the Buddhist, each of these individuals - the Christian - are given the 16:19 opportunity to believe as they choose. And so let's just take for a moment, if we remove the 16:27 right to religious freedom, what is the end game? Where is the logical conclusion? Where does 16:35 this take us? BARRY: Well, first of all - and I'll come to that - but let me just step back 16:40 a little bit. This is why the United Nations, for instance, has a repertoire for freedom of 16:46 religion or belief. So in other words, it does take in that other dimension that you 16:52 mentioned. CHRIS: Yes. BARRY: And I think that's extremely important. In the 16:55 Canadian Constitution in the Charter, it's freedom of conscience and religion. So it's 16:59 both, they're there. So where does it take us if we remove that? What happens is, society 17:07 has got to have some form of anchor as to what is truth. And I mean, again, this is something 17:12 that we all want to understand. What is truth? CHRIS: Yes. BARRY: Many people say, "Well, 17:17 there is no such thing as truth." Well, then, that's a statement of truth. CHRIS: Yes. 17:21 BARRY: Right? CHRIS: Absolutely. BARRY: So what it takes us to, I think - and what we've seen in 17:26 various experiments and political experiments over the years - has been, the State, 17:33 then, becomes the arbitrator of truth. So then, what does the State say on X, Y, Z? And that 17:42 has been the experience, where you see. you take away the individual freedom, then 17:50 something fills the vacuum, and that vacuum is often filled by the State. And that's where it 17:57 leads, and that then becomes very problematic. CHRIS: Now, we of course have examples of 18:03 history where this has happened. Rome is an example, and other places. Are there any modern 18:09 examples in the West where religious freedom has been played with a little bit, and 18:15 consequences to that, that you can think of? BARRY: Well, I mean, there's. well, I mean, 18:20 we've got the ongoing discussion right now. We mentioned last program the Trinity Western 18:27 University case, for example. But I mean, we're struggling right now. We're struggling in 18:33 the western countries on how you deal with issues on sexual orientation, human sexuality, 18:39 gender identity, all of these things. Religion has spoken an awful lot about sex and has 18:45 spoken a lot about how one ought to live. And in essence, it comes down to different 18:53 interpretations of what it means to be a human, right? And that's where a struggle is ongoing 18:59 right now. And how do we allow ourselves, or how do we ensure that we can have a society that 19:10 is free and that is respectful of everyone's, you know, sexual orientation, religious freedom, 19:18 and so on? And that is an ongoing discussion. We have had horrible experiences in the past 19:27 where western countries, i.e., Germany, for example, where religious freedom was taken away 19:34 during the Nazi regime, where what happens is, is that ideology, this concept and 19:45 understanding or view of the world that becomes so dominant, that everything gets taken up in 19:52 its. in this volcano, as it were. And we see it with. in that particular example, where 20:01 even the so-called Christian churches went right along with the State. CHRIS: Yes. 20:07 BARRY: Because remember, if you're not going to allow religious freedom as I'm 20:12 suggesting, then what happens is, the State comes in, and the State definitely came in there 20:18 on that particular occasion and took away religious freedom, and then, you know, we know what the 20:24 result is. So yes, religious freedom is something that we've got to be eternally vigilant 20:30 about. It's not something that we can just say, "Okay, well, we have now religious freedom, we 20:35 don't need to worry about it, da-da-dah." Well, if we have that kind of lackadaisical 20:41 attitude and there's a lack of empathy here, or there's indifference. if there's 20:47 anything that's supposed to be indifferent, that we have learned, is that the State is to 20:51 be indifferent. The State is to be neutral with respect to religious views and religious 20:57 opinions. And the moment that the State gets in and starts saying, "Well, no, I'm sorry, 21:03 but you can't have that religious view." Now, granted, there are limits, right? 21:07 CHRIS: Sure. BARRY: There has to be limits. "Peace, order, and good government," our 21:10 Constitution says. But if you're involved in something that is not against public policy, that 21:17 is private, that is not causing any kind of grave and imminent danger or anything of that 21:24 nature, but if it's something that says, "Hey, this is how I want to live." I work in an area 21:31 where we have a religious community there that doesn't agree with the idea of driving a 21:40 vehicle. So what do they do? They drive horse and buggy. CHRIS: Yes. BARRY: Every day, 21:44 back and forth to my office, several times a day, I see horse and buggies. It's great; it's 21:48 wonderful. I feel like sometimes I'm living in a museum, like, you know, back in history. Well, 21:53 they have every right to live that way if they so desire. CHRIS: Absolutely. BARRY: And 21:57 you know, so they have their own views about how much education their children have. They've got 22:02 a view that their young people should be out on the farm and should be working when they're 22:07 of age, and all the rest of it. Well, praise God, we've got a country where those people can 22:14 live that way. CHRIS: Absolutely. You know, and Barry, as we have our last few 22:19 minutes together, you know, it reminds me, I was lecturing at a university, and I was speaking 22:24 to a Christian club and expected my audience to be primarily Christians. However, the first 22:27 night, a good deal of the Secular and Philosophy Club came. And afterwards, we had 22:33 lengthy discussion with the members of that club. And they said this to me: they said, "You 22:37 know, there's something different about you." I said, "What's that?" And he says, "A 22:40 lot of the other clubs kick us out. But you listened to us." And then I said this to 22:45 him - and I want you to comment on this - I said, "Listen, I respect what you believe and you 22:51 think in the same way I would hope you respect what I believe. We may not agree, but we can 22:57 have mutual respect." So in these final two minutes that we have together, Barry, talk about 23:03 that. How does the Christian - how does anybody - relate to people with 23:08 different views? How do we treat them in a way that is agreeable to the Bible and its 23:14 foundational principle of freedom of belief? BARRY: You know, it's. when we talk about 23:20 personal beliefs and so on, we tend to be emotional, because we've had. we all have our 23:27 religious experiences. And when someone says something that is particularly offensive, we could 23:36 become very emotional and very upset very quickly. That's to be expected. But the reality is, as 23:45 a Christian, I look at the example of Christ. He is my example when it comes to the 23:51 whole concept of religious freedom. I think of Him speaking to the woman at the well in 23:56 Samaria, the Samaritan woman there. The Samaritans and the Jewish people did not see eye to 24:04 eye on religion. CHRIS: No, they did not. BARRY: And they were very much against each other and 24:08 they had very different concepts and understandings. But yet, Jesus was willing to sit down 24:12 with those whom He disagreed with, and He was able to have a discussion with her in broad 24:20 daylight in front of everyone without any kind of shame or any kind of sense that He was doing 24:27 anything He shouldn't have been. In many ways - and you look at the Good Samaritan, which we 24:33 have, you know, Good Samaritan laws and so forth - and it's all on the concept of respecting the 24:38 other. We have to respect the other, because the other has the image of God. And for that 24:46 reason, we love our fellow man as we love God. CHRIS: Hard to believe we're out of time, 24:50 Barry. Let's pray together, and why don't you pray for us in this issue of religious freedom? 24:55 BARRY: Father God, we just want to thank You so very much for this beautiful gift that You 25:00 have given. You have given us freedom of choice. Lord, help us in our own lives. Help us to 25:06 love our neighbours. Help us to love our own family when they make decisions that. on religion 25:13 and so forth that may not be in accordance with the way we want them to follow and to accept. 25:20 Lord, give us that grace. And thank you for the example of the Lord Jesus Christ in this 25:25 matter. And for that, we say thanks. Amen. CHRIS: Amen. 25:50 > 25:55 Today in the NEWSTART acronym, we're focusing on "S" for sunshine. Now, if you're like 26:01 me, you love being out in the sun. Sunshine boosts our spirits and brings joy to our lives. Our 26:07 bodies need sunlight in order to stay healthy, so getting proper amounts of sunshine each day is 26:13 important. Excessive exposure to sunlight, however, can be detrimental to our health, 26:19 resulting in premature wrinkling, aging of the skin, and skin cancer. But, in the 26:25 right amounts sunlight enhances our lives by improving our sleep. How does sunlight in the 26:33 day improve our sleep at night? Have you heard of melatonin? It's a hormone in our bodies 26:38 that enhances sleep. As we age, our bodies produce less and less melatonin. Studies show that 26:45 daily exposure to sunlight helps boost our body's production of melatonin. So, we sleep better. 26:51 Secondly, improving our mood. Most people seem to function and feel so much better when the sun 26:58 is shining. I know I do! It is well documented that seasonal variations in light levels can 27:04 have profound effects on mental health due to the increased levels of serotonin. Many 27:10 studies report that when we combine sunlight - especially as the sun rises in the morning 27:16 with exercise, it has a powerful effect on preventing as well as treating acute depression. 27:24 Sunlight also helps boost our immune system and even alleviates pain from swollen 27:30 arthritic joints! And, of course, we all know that we need the the sun to enable our bodies 27:36 to manufacture vitamin D. Our bodies need vitamin D in order to use calcium to build strong, 27:42 healthy bones and for other functions in our bodies. So, get on out there into the gorgeous 27:50 sunshine and get some vitamin D happening. Be careful, though; the best hours to be out in the 27:53 sun are before 10:00 am and after 2:00 pm. Jesus tells us in John 8:12 that He is the light 28:01 of the world. As the Sun of righteousness, He brings light and healing to our souls. I love 28:08 that. If you want additional information on healthy eating, visit our It Is Written website 28:13 at www.ItIsWritten.ca, go to the Live Healthy page, and you'll find links to lots of great 28:22 resources. See you next time! 28:29 > 28:33 CHRIS: The very foundations of modern religious freedom are found in the Reformation. Today, 28:38 I want to offer to you for any size donation The Great Controversy DVD, a collection of 28:44 history and music. Here's the information you need for today's offer. 29:26 > 29:29 CHRIS: Barry, I want to thank you so much for joining us this week. BARRY: Great to be here, 29:32 Chris. CHRIS: Friend, I want to thank you for joining us. If you're interested in some of the 29:37 other items that Barry's been thinking about, writing about, I invite you to go to his blog, 29:42 LawAndReligion.org. Please join us again next week. Until then, remember it is written: "Man 29:50 shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." 29:58 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ |
Revised 2016-04-21