Participants: Chris Holland
Series Code: IIWC
Program Code: IIWC201529A
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00:01 Our Land Glorious and Free Liberty Under Fire #1
00:06 Our Land Glorious and Free Liberty Under Fire #1 00:13 Our Land Glorious and Free Liberty Under Fire #1 00:19 Our Land Glorious and Free Liberty Under Fire #1 00:25 Our Land Glorious and Free Liberty Under Fire #1 00:30 Our Land Glorious and Free Liberty Under Fire #1 00:35 Our Land Glorious and Free Liberty Under Fire #1 00:40 Our Land Glorious and Free Liberty Under Fire #1 00:44 Our Land Glorious and Free Liberty Under Fire #1 00:48 Our Land Glorious and Free Liberty Under Fire #1 00:52 Our Land Glorious and Free Liberty Under Fire #1 01:29 > 01:31 >>Announcer: It has stood the test of time. 01:34 God's book, The Bible 01:38 Still relevant in today's complex world 01:44 It Is Written 01:46 Sharing messages of hope around the world! 01:57 > 01:59 CHRIS: Religious freedom. What is it? Why is it important? How is an individual who is 02:05 religious to relate to an ever-increasing secular society? Today, to help me answer those 02:11 questions, we have as a guest on It Is Written Barry Bussey. Barry, welcome to the program. 02:17 BARRY: Great to be here, Chris. CHRIS: Barry, it's so good to have you here. We've had a 02:21 number of discussions together over the course of the last couple of years. Barry, you are 02:27 uniquely positioned to discuss this issue of religious freedom because you have a history of 02:31 theology. You were a pastor; you have a degree in theology. But then you're also a lawyer. You 02:36 have had a history of working in various issues of law and politics. In fact, that one 02:43 time, you worked right down on Capitol Hill as the director or heading up the office of 02:49 legislative affairs for the Seventh-day Adventist Church there in Washington, D.C. But 02:55 now you are the director of legal affairs for the Canadian Council of Christian Charities. 03:00 And so when we talk about this issue of religious freedom - and I'm going to ask you a very 03:06 broad question, knowing that there have been volumes written on it, and we could spend hours 03:11 just talking about this one question - but in brief, what is religious freedom and why is it 03:18 important? BARRY: Well, you know, you are right. It could take a long time to really flesh 03:23 it out, because even the subject of what is religion has become a very contested term, it seems. 03:30 But religious freedom really is something that we have experienced in the West in a big 03:37 way in what is known as the modern period, which is post-reformation. And it's the 03:42 idea that the individual is free to worship or not to worship a supreme being, an entity that 03:50 they think is in accordance with their conscience as their understanding of what reality 03:56 is, and able to worship as they see fit, and that is without any kind of hindrance or reprisal, 04:06 is how Chief Justice Dickson said in the famous Canadian case that dealt with religious 04:13 freedom, known as the Big M Drug Mart case. Religious freedom allows the individual to be who 04:19 they are, and it's a sense of identity, it's a sense of their religious understanding of the 04:25 world. Every human being asks the question. in fact, humanity is continuing to ask the 04:31 questions of who are we, where did we come from, how did we get there, where are we going? I 04:38 mean, scientists today are constantly seeking the, you know, information about the Big 04:43 Bang. How did it all happen? All of those things, that's all part of this struggle of trying to 04:48 find the ontological understanding of what we are and who we are and what is and all 04:54 of that. But religious freedom, therefore, is simply allowing the individual to follow their 05:00 conscience, where his conscience leads. You know, the famous statement by Martin Luther when 05:06 he was asked to recant on his religious views, he said, "I can't." He said, "I can't 05:11 because to go against the conscience is neither right nor safe." And that is, in essence, 05:18 in a nub - even though even in a nub, it can be quite drawn-out - is the idea of 05:23 religious freedom. CHRIS: You and I are both Christians, and It Is Written as a program is a 05:30 Christian-based program. One of the reasons for my choice to become a Christian was, that is 05:37 actually the very foundational principle of God's government. The freedom to choose. The 05:41 freedom to choose to worship, to not worship. Now, at the Canadian Council of Christian 05:47 Charities, you do a lot of work with helping charities be in compliance with different 05:53 governmental policies and to practice exceptional practices in the way of how it functions. 06:02 But with your work as the director of legal affairs, anything happening on the 06:09 forefront of this issue of religious freedom right now? BARRY: One of the - okay, well, 06:16 we have been involved in a number of cases intervening, and basically, when we intervene in 06:20 a case, we are seeking to be a friend of the Court to help the Court understand what the 06:26 implications are of its decision. And perhaps the most - well, certainly the one 06:33 case right now that is taking up a fair piece of my time is that of the Trinity Western 06:38 University case, where they want to establish a law school, but because of the opposition from a 06:45 number of Law Societies around the country, they're having a rough time with that. So that's 06:51 probably the case where we're having issues right now and we're involved with. 06:57 CHRIS: Okay. Now, a number of viewers right now are saying, "Okay, Trinity Western 07:00 University. Where is it, what is it, why are they having this difficulty?" So let's just 07:05 start. Where is Trinity Western? BARRY: So Trinity Western is a small Christian university, I 07:11 think is around 6,000 students, in that range, at Langley, British Columbia. It has been in 07:19 operation since the late 1960s, early '70s. They have a large number of degrees that they 07:27 grant in all different areas, from business to nursing to - you name it, all of the regular 07:33 humanity degrees and so on. They have done exceptional work. In fact, TWU graduates have gone on 07:40 and done great things and are really making a difference in the world. It is a church 07:45 that - it is a university that the Evangelical Free Church is sponsoring this university. It 07:54 is - so it's a Christian university, private. Doesn't receive government money, 07:59 although it does - had received I think maybe a million dollars in its history, kind of thing. 08:05 Like, very, very little government money. And the struggle has been this, is that 08:13 if you want to attend - TWU we call it for short - if you want to attend TWU, you have to sign 08:19 a code of conduct. And that code of conduct is a beautiful document, and I encourage your 08:25 listeners to look it up on the website at TWU, and to just read through and see what it says. 08:37 Because right now, if you were to just look at what you hear in the press and so on, you'd say, 08:41 "Oh, you know, they're horrible," and all of this, because they're against 08:45 whatever. They're not against anyone. If you read through it, they're. the primary purpose, or 08:48 the sense is, is to have a Christian university, a university that has a Christian 08:51 ambiance. And you read through the code of conduct, and they're encouraging their young people 08:56 to make sure that they're in compliance with, you know, its religious faith, i.e., you know, 09:01 you're not involved in any kind of slander, you're not involved in any drinking. There's no 09:05 alcohol consumption on campus. They frown upon all kinds of. you know, the regular, standard, 09:13 basic understanding of Christian life. CHRIS: Yes. BARRY: One of those statements there, item - I 09:19 think it's item number six - is the statement that says that they will live their lives so 09:23 that they do not violate the sacredness of marriage as one man and one woman. And that has 09:28 become the focus. And it was the focus back in the 1990s when they wanted to get an education 09:36 degree. The B.C. College of Teachers said, "No, because if you are educated in university 09:44 where they have this homophobic mindset, that as a result, it will cause the graduates of this 09:52 education degree, when they go out into public school, they're going to discriminate against 09:55 homosexual students." That case went on to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court said, "There's 10:00 no evidence whatsoever that any TWU graduate has ever discriminated in their 10:06 professional capacity," and has said, "Look, you need to accredit this education degree." 10:13 So they did, ultimately; they had to. Then, for a number of years, as the university grows 10:22 and expands, it wanted to have a law degree. And in 2012, in June of 2012, they presented it 10:29 before the Federation of the Canadian Law Societies, and that federation looked at it, and 10:35 they received all kinds of flak from a number of academics and other activists and said, "Look, 10:41 you can't accept this law school proposal because they're discriminatory. They 10:47 discriminate against the LGBTQ community because they have to sign this document." Well, I 10:57 should just point out that back in the 2001 case that was decided on the education thing, 11:03 the Supreme Court of Canada said, "Look, Trinity University is a private religious 11:07 community. The Charter does not apply to it because the Charter only applies between the 11:13 government and the citizen. The human rights legislation doesn't apply to it because it's a 11:17 religious community." And the Court used the terminology something like "Trinity Western 11:23 is not - or TWU is not for everyone." In other words, it's for that particular Evangelical 11:29 Christian community. Now in 2012, the argument has been, "Well, okay, we will say that 11:38 the potential graduates of law will not discriminate against, you know, LGBTQ clients or 11:46 whatever. Okay, we'll accept that." Same as, ultimately, was found in the - with the 11:50 teachers. But what's happening now is they argue and they say, "Well, because the school 11:56 requires this signing of this code of conduct, that that requirement is itself 12:04 discriminatory because - and here's how they get the Charter now - or, part of the argument, 12:10 because the thing is - anyhow. So they argue and they say that because the school receives 12:21 government accreditation in order to grant its degree, therefore it's a - the public, 12:28 the government, puts its imprimatur on the university, and therefore, it is as if the 12:40 government is accepting these discriminatory views of Trinity Western. CHRIS: Okay. 12:48 BARRY: Now, if you take that argument - well, I mean, there's lots of problems with that 12:53 argument, in my view, but. CHRIS: Sure. BARRY: .if you take that argument to its logical 12:56 extreme, where does it go? Like, I mean, there's lots of government agencies that give 13:02 licences, give permits, give whatever. Are we now going to say that government - 'cause in 13:10 this case, they're saying that if the Law Society gives its approval, therefore the Law 13:14 Society is agreeing with the religious views of the organization - if you go with 13:20 that argument to its logical extreme, then what about all the other degrees that the 13:27 university is doing? What about its history degree? What about its English degree? Are they 13:31 somehow incapable or is it unfair that the government would grant recognition for those 13:39 degrees? What about other things that government does? I mean, they issue driver's licences. I 13:47 mean, I know that sounds far-out, but I mean, just think about it. I mean, the thing is, 13:51 is the government, by mere granting a licence of whatever, therefore agreeing with the 13:58 religious views of the person who's receiving the licence? Like, okay, so, what they argue 14:06 is this: they say, "All right, law is different. Law is different than education because 14:14 the law, why, it's the gatekeeper. a law school is a gatekeeper of justice and. and 14:21 to think that perhaps you'll have graduates from TWU make it to the bench, or maybe they'll 14:30 be involved in not only practicing law, but maybe they'll be teaching law." I 14:36 mean, all of these kinds of things. CHRIS: You know, not to interrupt you, Barry, but I want 14:40 to kind of encapsulate this, because we have a wide variety of viewers, a number of 14:46 different religious persuasions. And I want to kind of - and I don't want to oversimplify what 14:53 we're talking about. BARRY: Mmhmm. CHRIS: But TWU is a private university, privately 14:56 funded. BARRY: Yes. CHRIS: .where a person can make a choice to go there or to not 15:01 go there. They are not forced to go there. And they have a Covenant, an agreement, a code 15:07 of conduct, that an individual signs when they go there, by free choice. BARRY: Mmhmm. 15:13 CHRIS: And by the way, if we understand Christianity in its purest forms, so to speak, 15:21 unfortunately, there have been - the loudest voices in Christianity may come across as 15:25 homophobic. However, the Bible is quite clear that Jesus accepted everyone. Jesus loved 15:32 everyone. Yet Jesus formed a religion that had boundaries that someone could choose or not 15:42 to choose to be a part of. Here's what I'm getting at. I eat in a restaurant that the 15:48 owners of that restaurant are practicing Buddhists. I eat in another restaurant where the 15:54 owners are practicing Hindus, and they have little shrines set up all over the restaurant. By 16:04 me eating at that restaurant, that doesn't necessarily mean I condone or agree with their 16:09 religious practices, but I do honour their freedom to practice their religion or practice their 16:15 freedom of conscience in whichever way they want to by continuing to eat there. It is 16:20 in the same way that TWU has a code of conduct, yet now the government is trying to tell 16:27 TWU, "You can't create a law degree because of this potential influence it will have," when in 16:35 reality, many Christians - I hesitate to say most - but many Christians make a very positive 16:43 influence on Canadian society. BARRY: Mmhmm. CHRIS: So let's now get to the - so TWU has this 16:51 case, they have attempted to prevent them from starting the law degree. The case has gone to 16:58 court. BARRY: So what's happened is that three Law Societies - the Law Society of 17:02 British Columbia, the Law Society of Upper Canada, which is Ontario, and the Nova Scotia 17:08 Barristers' Society - all three have decided not to give accreditation to the school, nor 17:14 would they accept these graduates coming in to do the articling. And articling is kind 17:20 of like an internship, I guess, would be the best way to describe it. When a law graduate 17:25 graduates, he has to go and work under another lawyer for about twelve months, give or 17:30 take - depends on each province - and then you do a Bar course and then you can practice 17:34 law. So Nova Scotia, for example, has said, you know, they will not accept any TWU 17:41 graduates. Now, what's happened is that the lower courts - because TWU now has 17:48 taken this on to the courts for judicial review. The first court out was the court in Nova Scotia 17:56 which gave a resounding victory to TWU and basically said, "Look, you can't make the 18:03 Charter a blueprint for moral conformity that Evangelical Christians that - if they want 18:10 to establish a law school, they're entitled to establish a law school and have the codes of 18:16 conduct and so forth." So resounding victory there. CHRIS: Makes good sense. 18:19 BARRY: In the province of British Columbia, the court ruled that the Law Society there 18:26 did not follow proper rules of - we call it procedural justice, administrative law 18:32 issues there - that it fettered its discretion in looking at the issues of religious freedom and 18:40 so on, and so the court ruled there that the law school was offside, and both of those are 18:47 now being appealed. The third one, which is also being appealed, the third one is where 18:54 Trinity Western lost, here in Ontario, and basically, the court there said that the Law 19:00 Society of Upper Canada was well within its rights to decide not to accept Trinity Western. So 19:07 we've got those three cases. They're all now at their various respective courts of appeal. And 19:14 I expect - I mean, this will eventually make its way up to the Supreme Court of Canada, 19:19 probably in at least another year, year and a half, something in that timeframe. And perhaps 19:25 all three of those cases will be combined together for the Court to deal with. So that's where it 19:31 is. And I mean, you can imagine the amount of stress and everything else that's involved 19:36 in this for a small Christian university. They certainly need our prayers and support as they 19:42 struggle through this. What I find very concerning on this whole thing is, in the 19:54 recognition that the law was very clear back in 2001, Trinity was exempt. Trinity had its 20:05 education degree. Now what we see being argued are things like, "Well, the fact that TWU 20:13 is not subject to the Charter, as a private institution, is irrelevant, that it is 20:23 irrelevant that the law doesn't apply to them. It's irrelevant that the human rights 20:26 legislation doesn't apply to them." And I find that very problematic. CHRIS: Yes. 20:30 BARRY: I find it problematic in the same that - I'll give you an example. In the play A Man for 20:40 All Seasons by Bolt, he has a scene there with Sir Thomas More speaking to his son-in-law 20:50 Roper. And Roper was upset with Thomas More because Thomas More said that he would give the 20:56 benefit of the law to the devil. And Roper says, "You would allow the devil the benefit of the 21:04 law?" And Thomas replied and said, "Yes, of course I'd give him the benefit of the law." He 21:10 said, "In this country of England," he said, "from one end to the other, there are laws, 21:14 human laws. And I'd give him the benefit of the law because," he says, "what would you do? Would 21:20 you knock down every law in this country so you could go after the devil? And then if the devil 21:25 turned around and went after you, what would be left to protect you?" CHRIS: Yes. 21:30 BARRY: And you know, that's how I see it. You know, the law is very clear. Trinity Western 21:36 should not be having this issue. We are involved in a very diverse society. CHRIS: Yes. 21:45 BARRY: And we need to allow many different groups the opportunity to be able to live in their 21:53 communities so that they will be able to be free, have that space, have the space for the 22:01 Christian universities to be able to operate in their Christian. listen, we have, as 22:06 Christians, been involved in universities since around the year 600 A.D. CHRIS: Yes, yes. 22:13 BARRY: I mean, it's been a long time. Many of the universities across this country have been 22:17 founded by churches and religious organizations. Trinity Western is no different, and all 22:22 of the history of western civilization. And yet, even when there is this law, there is this 22:29 protection of religious freedom, now we're saying it's irrelevant. It baffles me; it 22:34 honestly baffles me. CHRIS: As I listen to you, Barry, I certainly want to be praying for 22:40 TWU, but what comes to my mind is ultimately the question that must be answered, ultimately the 22:47 issue - and in our last few minutes together - it seems that the ultimate issue is an issue 22:53 of sovereignty. Talk about that. How does that work? Because somebody may be watching saying, 23:01 "Okay, it's some university; it doesn't bother me." How does this issue of sovereignty affect 23:07 me as an individual? BARRY: Throughout the history of mankind, states - whether it's 23:14 the Roman emperor who said he was God and he was king - the idea was that he told the 23:18 citizens what to believe and what not to believe and they were to take that little incense 23:23 and they were to drop it at his altar. Christians have said, "No, we're not doing that. The 23:27 ultimate sovereign is God. It's our individual conscience." And that's what it comes down to at 23:34 the end of the day. We must allow for individual Christian conscience to prevail. 23:40 CHRIS: And by allowing. and by the way, we have a history. I recently read an article about 23:45 some issues that were faced in Québec with this very issue in its past history. The bottom 23:55 line is, is God desires for each of us to have the freedom to choose. BARRY: Mmhmm. CHRIS: The 24:01 TWU case comes down to the fundamental issue of this university being able to choose 24:09 how it operates - within the context of the government - but how it operates while freely 24:17 practicing its religion. How that affects me as an individual is that I need to be concerned; 24:24 if the government enforces its view on an institution, the logical next step is to enforce 24:31 that on the individual. BARRY: Mmhmm. CHRIS: Barry, let's pray together as we wrap 24:35 our show up. Heavenly Father, we thank You so much for the freedom of choice. Please help 24:41 us in our choosing to always choose to honour You in those choices. We pray in Jesus' name, 24:48 amen. 25:19 > 25:23 >>Bev: Hi everyone. We've been focusing on the "NEWSTART" acronym that's N,E,W,S,T,A,R,T 25:29 and today we are looking at "W" for water. Fish swim in it, flowers love to be drenched in 25:35 it, and you and I are made up of about 70% of it! Water has been called the most essential 25:42 nutrient, and with good reason because every one of your bodily functions requires water. 25:48 Breathing, digestion, elimination - all require water Every one of your billions of 25:54 cells needs water. Drinking enough water each day helps to decrease the risk of kidney 26:01 stones, and urinary tract infections. In a University of Washington study, it was shown 26:07 that just one glass of water shut down the hunger pangs for almost 100% of the study 26:12 participants! Did you know that by the time you feel thirsty, you're actually already 26:18 dehydrated? Many of us are walking around totally parched, and we don't even realize it! 26:24 And, do you know that lack of water is the number one trigger of daytime fatigue? So, how much 26:31 water do we need? There are lots of different equations, but it's probably safe to say that 26:36 depending on your body size and your activity level, your body needs between 6 - 10 cups of 26:42 water each day. A good rule of thumb is to drink enough to keep your urine pale. I know, that 26:49 may sound like a lot, but here are some tips to keep you nicely hydrated: first,drink two cups 26:55 first thing in the morning. It will help to cleanse your body after your nightly rest. Drink 27:01 water between your meals, not with your meals. Why do I say that? If you're drinking with 27:07 your meals, you are diluting those powerful gastric juices that are necessary to really get 27:13 your food fully digested. So, try to wait at least an hour after you finish your meals to 27:18 start drinking. For those 6-10 cups, it really is best to drink plain water. By that, I mean not 27:26 juice, not pop, not milk, just plain water. Your body will thank you for it. You know, in 27:34 John 4:10, Jesus tells us that He is the source of living water and that anyone who drinks from 27:40 Him will never thirst again. So, cheers! Drink up! If you want additional information on 27:47 healthy eating, visit our It Is Written website at www.itiswrittencanada.ca, 27:55 go to the Live Healthy page, and you'll find links to lots of great resources. 27:59 See you next time! 28:03 > 28:06 CHRIS: Dear friend, the very foundation of God's government is the freedom to choose. For 28:11 today's offer, I want to offer you two different magazines, both Liberty magazines, one from 28:16 2010, the other from 2015, with articles from Barry Bussey. We have a limited supply of these 28:24 magazines, but here's the information you need to receive today's offer. 29:26 > 29:30 CHRIS: Friend, thank you so much for watching. And Barry, I want to thank you for joining us 29:34 today. BARRY: It was great to be here, Chris. CHRIS: Now, if you would like to read more from 29:38 Barry, you can go to Barry's blog at LawAndReligion.org. Thank you so much again for 29:44 joining us. Please join us again next week. Until then, remember it is written: "Man shall not 29:50 live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." 29:56 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ |
Revised 2016-04-21