Participants: Bill Santos
Series Code: IIWC
Program Code: IIWC201130
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00:02 >>Bill: John Robert Wooden was an American basketball
00:03 player and coach. 00:05 Nicknamed the "Wizard of Westwood , he won ten NCAA 00:06 national championships in a 12-year period - seven 00:11 in a row - as head coach at UCLA. Within this 00:18 period, his teams won a record 88 consecutive 00:19 games. He was named national coach of 00:24 the year six times. In his book "Wooden" he tells the 00:29 following story: 01:35 >>ANNOUNCER: IT HAS STOOD THE TEST OF TIME... 01:38 GOD'S BOOK, THE BIBLE. 01:41 STILL RELEVANT IN TODAY'S COMPLEX WORLD. 01:46 IT IS WRITTEN . . . 01:49 SHARING MESSAGES OF HOPE AROUND THE WORLD. 02:10 I can assure you what is true of a mule, is true 02:11 with people. Paul says the fruit of the Spirit 02:16 is "gentleness." It is a word that is more commonly 02:21 translated "meekness." It is the same word that is 02:22 used in Matthew, chapter five, where Jesus said, 02:28 "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the 02:32 earth." Incidentally, it's too bad that the meek have 02:33 not already inherited the earth, because the un-meek 02:38 are making a real mess of it. Someone has pointed 02:45 out that courage is not in Paul's list of the fruit 02:46 of the Spirit. But we should recognize that it 02:50 takes courage to be gentle in the midst of all the 02:55 evil surrounding us in this world. 03:04 We have begun a journey through the Fruit of the 03:05 Spirit outlining Galatians chapter five and today we 03:10 are continuing our study with Gentleness. And 03:16 joining me are my two guests, Gerard Oudri and 03:17 Mark Johnson. Welcome, both of you, to the It Is 03:23 Written program. >>Pastor Mark: Thank you. >>Bill: 03:27 And let me welcome our viewers to that faithfully 03:28 tune in every single week. 03:32 Well, we have embarked on a journey a few weeks back 03:33 where we have been looking at what Paul says are 03:39 the external, if we would, manifestations of what the 03:45 Spirit has done in the heart of the followers 03:45 of Jesus Christ. And he contrasted the Fruit of 03:50 the Spirit with the deeds of the flesh. And we 03:55 thought this was an interesting study for our 03:56 folks and you graciously agreed to join us. Now, 04:01 both of you are pastors Pastor Oudri, you pastor 04:07 the Bronte Seventh-Day Adventist Church. Tell us 04:08 a little bit about your church and maybe there's a 04:11 website folks can.>>Pastor Oudri: Aolutely. Well, 04:15 thank you so much for having me again in your 04:16 program. We've been at the Bronte Church, Bronte 04:20 Seventh-Day Adventist Church since September of 04:23 2010 and enjoying the journey there. We have 04:24 a great group of people. 04:30 It's a very friendly church located between 04:31 Oakville and Burlington. 04:34 And we do have a website, Brontesda.org and we 04:35 invite viewers to visit our website. >>Bill: Thank 04:39 you Pastor Oudri. And Pastor Mark Johnson it is 04:44 a real thrill to have you here and we're happy 04:45 that you accepted our invitation. >>Pastor Mark: 04:48 I'm delighted. Pastor Mark Johnson is the President 04:50 of the Seventh-Day Adventist Church in 04:51 Canada. Pastor Mark, tell us a little bit about 04:54 you. >>Pastor Mark: Well, I have had the joy and 04:59 privilege of working as a Seventh-Day Adventist 05:00 minister across Canada in every administrative unit 05:04 basically from Ontario going west to British 05:10 Columbia and now it's my joy to be able to travel, 05:11 really, across this vast nation of ours and see how 05:16 God has been leading in the lives of individuals 05:20 all over the place. And truly that is a wonderful 05:21 opportunity and God is doing great things 05:27 for people, just in people's lives, everyday 05:31 experiences and so on. My wife doesn't get to travel 05:32 with me quite so much now a days but we keep in 05:36 touch through the miracle of Skype and things like 05:39 that. >>Bill: (laughter) Well, that's wonderful. 05:40 Well, let's get down into our study of gentleness 05:43 or, commonly translated, meekness, right? So much 05:49 for that assertiveness training I just signed up 05:50 for. (laughter) When it says here it's the meek, 05:53 it's gentle. So, let's talk about this. What 06:03 could you gentlemen tell me about this, about this 06:04 gentleness that Paul talks about? How does this play 06:06 itself out? Why is it important? Or what is it? 06:09 >>Pastor Oudri: I think that, first before we even 06:10 go into, specifically, gentleness there was 06:13 something that when I was reading this text that 06:16 'gently' was two things, the scope and the source 06:17 of these attributes. The scope, by that I mean I 06:27 think that everybody would like to enjoy these things 06:29 and so no matter what your faith is or even if you 06:30 don't have any faith in anything. But I think the 06:36 difference is the source and Paul clearly says that 06:41 these are Fruits of the Spirit. So if I want to 06:42 experience these things in my life it's only through 06:48 the Spirit. And so the meekness, the gentleness 06:51 that we are called to experience, it's only 06:52 a Fruit that comes as a result of the Spirit of 06:57 God being in us. >>Bill: So not a man-made. I can't 07:02 stand there and say, okay, from this day forward now 07:03 I'm gentle. Pastor Oudri: Precisely. >>Bill: Yeah. 07:07 It is in what the Holy Spirit has done on the 07:10 inside. >>Pastor Mark: Well I think I've seen 07:11 somebody try that once or twice. >>Pastor Oudri: 07:13 (laughter) >>Bill: How successful was that? 07:14 >>Pastor Mark: Usually just for a few minutes 07:15 >>Bill: That's right. Now, what is this meekness? 07:17 What is that? I mean, because to be honest the 07:22 world would say the exact opposite. I mean that 07:23 Jesus said, "Blessed are the meek", the world would 07:29 say, 'No, blessed are those, the go-getters. The 07:33 ones that are aggressive. 07:34 There's something out there, you go get it. You 07:37 don't wait for anybody else to give it to you' 07:38 Right? But yet, Paul is saying, when the Holy 07:41 Spirit is inside you're going to present meekness 07:45 or gentleness. Doesn't sound like a winning 07:46 characteristic according to the standards of 07:49 the world. >>Pastor Mark: Yeah, I think, Bill, that 07:53 one of the big things is that the enduring 07:54 qualities of people that we know. I think we revere 07:59 people who we see have, really, kind of, their act 08:05 together, in a sense. 08:06 I suppose we would call it that one of the people who 08:10 had a tremendous impact on me as a young adult was a 08:11 woman that I met over the Philippians many years 08:14 ago. And she was just one of the kindest, most 08:19 gentle individuals that I had ever met. Tremendous 08:20 care for people around her. And I think that 08:26 sometimes when we think in terms of gentleness it's 08:31 the antithesis, if you please, of the aggressive 08:32 approach people take in trying to get themselves 08:36 ahead and begins to think about the other person. I 08:40 find that interesting because Christ puts me in 08:41 a position where I think about others and how my 08:46 life impacts on the other person before I spend 08:48 time, I think, thinking about myself. >>Bill: And 08:49 in that service to others you, in fact, become 08:54 elevated. >>Pastor Mark: That's true. Yes. >>Pastor 08:58 Oudri: I think, also, that Paul is not talking about 08:59 false humility. And, by the way, I'm using the 09:03 word 'humility' I think that it is.>>Bill: It's 09:08 probably synonymous also. 09:08 Yeah. >>Pastor Oudri: Yes. 09:09 Related, closely related. 09:11 I think it was the great philosopher, Aristotle 09:12 that used, defined meekness or humility 09:17 between two extremes Anger and indifference. In 09:26 other words, you have power, if you may, to act 09:27 but you choose to be in between, to wait, to 09:33 be patient. And I found a verse in Psalms, Psalm 45, 09:41 verses 3 and 4, talking about God and talking 09:42 about how God is patient or humble. And we all 09:45 believe that He is all powerful.>>Bill: 09:50 Absolutely. >>Pastor Oudri:.and He chooses to 09:51 be humble. But look at the context here, Psalm 45, 09:56 verses 3 and 4, it says, 10:16 So you see the context of glory and majesty and, 10:17 almost like, war and power but in humility. What 10:21 a contrast. >>Bill: So, the gentleness and the 10:28 meekness is not contrary to power, right? So, we're 10:29 not surrendering power, right? By being meek and 10:34 by being gentle. Go ahead. 10:34 >>Pastor Mark: Well, the thing, and you know, that 10:42 made me think about this passage earlier in the 10:44 fifth chapter of Galatians, there's also a 10:45 list that, I think, we're all familiar with which 10:49 are the results of living a natural life, the works 10:54 of the flesh as the Old King James would call it 10:55 And as I look through that list in verses 11:00 19 and on, it talks about characteristics which are 11:04 totally in opposition to the characteristics of 11:05 the Spirit-led individual. 11:09 >>Bill: Right. >>Pastor Mark: And I read things 11:10 like, you know, it talks about idolatry and 11:12 witchcraft and we, kind of, pass over that but 11:14 when we think in terms of things like wrath or 11:15 strife and all of these kinds of things you can't 11:20 be gentle and be engaged in these, kind of, angry 11:25 situations that are described in that earlier 11:26 text. And so the beautiful thing that I find about 11:33 the way that the Spirit works is, it takes 11:36 something which is destructive to 11:37 relationships, destructive of forward-thinking in 11:40 many things and replaces that with something which 11:45 is so uncharacteristic of individuals. As a little 11:46 boy my grandfather was one of the gentlest people 11:52 that I have ever met. My mother, who grew up in 11:57 that home, told me and other people who knew my 11:58 grandfather that before he met Christ and became a 12:01 Christian individual, that he was an individual who 12:06 really was, you know, full of profanity, full of 12:07 stuff, hard to get along with. But he became 12:14 changed because Christ came in and gave him a new 12:18 heart, a new way of looking at stuff. And 12:19 to me, that's exciting. 12:22 >>Bill: Absolutely. 12:23 >>Pastor Mark: Because this is almost a miracle 12:25 text, in the sense. 12:26 I couldn't pull it off >>Bill: Yes. Absolutely. 12:29 >>Pastor Mark:.but Jesus can. >>Bill: Now, you 12:30 know, but the world will say - I mean we have 12:33 viewers right now saying but, yeah, there you 12:35 Christians go again. 12:35 You know, you're becoming doormats. You know, you're 12:39 just going to let - is that, that's not what it's 12:40 saying? That's not, that's not what this refers to. 12:43 It's not being a doormat. 12:44 It's not letting people take advantage of 12:47 you. What's, where's that difference occur? >>Pastor 12:51 Oudri: I was just thinking about a story that I heard 12:53 about George Washington and how one day there 12:56 were three soldiers and a corporal. And the corporal 13:03 was giving orders and they were supposed to lift 13:04 a tree or something and he was just giving orders, 13:06 'Come on you soldiers 1-2-3 do it'. But he was 13:09 not helping at all. And this man came and says, 13:11 'Why aren't you helping?' And he said, 'well, I'm a 13:15 corporal' and so he didn't say anything and he went 13:19 and helped and he happened to be George Washington. 13:20 I don't think that he was being a doormat by doing 13:24 that. It's simply the humility, the gentleness 13:30 that even though I'm in a high position but I'm 13:31 imitating Christ. And, like him, He chose to 13:36 leave Heaven behind and become one of us and 13:42 become a servant. And that was Christ. >>Bill: Now, 13:43 when I go to the bank and that bank teller makes a 13:48 mistake on my deposit or, boy, I'll tell you it's 13:53 hard to be gentle. 13:53 >>Pastor Mark: It doesn't come naturally. >>Bill: It 13:58 doesn't come naturally. 13:59 So, for a viewer that's watching saying, oh, okay, 14:01 I want to exhibit this in my life. I mean, I think 14:02 folks, intellectually, understand that 14:06 gentleness, you know, meekness, humility, that 14:12 helps in relationships. 14:12 That makes for a stronger marriage, it makes for a 14:17 better parent-child relationship.>>Pastor 14:18 Mark: Sure. >>Bill:.it makes for a better working 14:22 relationship. Yeah, I think, intellectually, I 14:23 mean we can grasp that. 14:24 The issue is okay, how does that happen? Paul 14:27 says, okay, it's the Fruit of the Spirit. 14:28 We've talked about your grandfather going 14:30 through.so I've got a viewer sitting here going 14:34 I need that in my life. 14:35 What do they do? >>Pastor Mark: I think the good 14:38 news is that the way that I understand the Spirit 14:39 working is that God takes us where we are. And 14:46 we are not where God would like us to end up and yet, 14:53 He's okay with that. And He begins to work within 14:54 us to help us become sensitive to the parts 14:58 that are not there that He's talking about. As I 15:02 find myself spending more time in the word of God 15:03 and reading what it has to say, it paints a picture 15:12 of Christ which is a realistic picture of a 15:16 person who had flesh and blood. Who had the 15:17 capacity to live life in a contentious society 15:22 and yet was able to say hard things to people 15:27 sometimes.>>Bill: Right. 15:28 >>Pastor Mark:.in a nice way. >>Bill: Right. 15:31 >>Pastor Mark: And that, I think, is the part that's 15:32 terribly hard because we come out of church or 15:34 wherever we happen to be and the question is, now 15:37 that I'm out of this particular sacred 15:38 environment, how am I supposed to live between 15:41 the weekends in a way that looks anything like what 15:44 God wants me to do? 15:45 >>Bill: Yes. >>Pastor Oudri: I love gardening. 15:49 When spring and summer come I really enjoy 15:50 gardening and there is a key word here, the 15:54 Fruit of the Spirit. And, obviously, you cannot have 15:58 fruit unless you plant a seed. And you have to 15:59 take care of the plant otherwise you're not going 16:04 to have any fruit. And I was thinking of the story 16:09 of Nicodemus that came to Jesus at night. And he 16:10 was a pharosy and poorly admired and respected by 16:13 the people around him but something was missing in 16:19 his life. So, even religious leaders 16:20 sometimes very often miss the mark. I am a pastor 16:24 and I can speak about that. And so, basically, 16:29 Jesus says you need to be born again. Be born of the 16:30 water and of the Spirit or of water and of the 16:35 Spirit. So, I see that as planting a seed. And that 16:40 is about our relationship with Christ. That's the 16:41 only way that that can happen and we have to 16:45 maintain that. If we want that Fruit and we want all 16:48 of these attributes and now we're talking about 16:49 gentleness, meekness, humility. But it is 16:53 not only hard, it is impossible for us to 16:58 experience, humanly speaking, then we need to 16:59 plant the seed and take care of the plant 17:03 and take care of the that relationship with Christ. 17:06 >>Bill: Yeah. Leading up to this chapter five here 17:07 in Galatians, Paul has been going through 17:12 some pretty difficult situations. >>Pastor Mark: 17:17 Sure. >>Bill:.here. 17:17 >>Pastor Mark: Absolutely, absolutely. >>Bill: And 17:19 has had to be rather forceful, you know, 17:19 sometimes, you know, how he presented his message. 17:24 This humility, this recognizing that, you 17:29 know, we are children of God, we are servants of 17:30 God. We have, sometimes, the inability to place 17:35 ourselves in second place, right? And consider others 17:40 and recognize, recognize that. >>Pastor Mark: Sure. 17:41 One of the key issues, I think, in 17:46 the New Testament is this discussion of how my life 17:49 affects the life of other people. In fact, I think 17:50 about the passage that says, "Don't let 17:53 your liberty become the stumping block for someone 17:56 else". And as I think about the role of a 17:57 Christian in society, whether he's surrounded 18:04 by other Christians or whether he is living in a 18:07 world where Christianity is not a dominant force is 18:08 question is, how do I live in the knowledge that 18:16 there is a God who is interested.>>Bill: Yes. 18:22 >>Pastor Mark:.in everything I do? >>Bill: 18:23 Right. >>Pastor Mark: And is very interested in the 18:24 way that I relate to other people. Even when I am in 18:30 disagreement with individuals have I learned 18:31 how to disagree in a kind way? Because I discovered 18:36 when people get angry with me I don't take them that 18:41 seriously. When individuals are nice and, 18:42 yet, firm in what they have to say about things 18:47 when they have an issue, I pay more attention to 18:52 that. And I think that that's something that is a 18:53 part of how we are wired. 18:56 And God knows that. 18:57 And God wants us to demonstrate in real time 19:02 what it would be like to be around an individual 19:04 who maybe, in some little way, reflects 19:09 the character of Christ >>Bill: Now, what would 19:12 our society or communities be like if all of those 19:13 that claim to be followers of Jesus Christ exhibited 19:18 gentleness, meekness, and humility in their daily 19:23 lives? >>Pastor Oudri: Imagine that. And it 19:24 interesting, you were talking about Paul, that 19:30 even when dealing with other Christians he was 19:33 not talking, he had many conflicts with people 19:35 from outside.>>Bill: Yes. 19:36 >>Pastor Oudri:.of the Christian church but also 19:37 from inside. >>Bill: Yes. 19:39 Absolutely. >>Pastor Oudri: But even with them, 19:40 in Corinthians and even in Ephesians, he says, 19:42 you know, 'I come with gentleness and with 19:45 humility and that. 19:46 So, that's a challenge for all of us to follow in his 19:52 steps. >>Bill: Gentlemen, we've run out of time. I 19:53 appreciate your insights. 19:59 Henry Moorhead was an evangelist who lived over 20:00 a hundred years ago. He was a contemporary of 20:04 Dwight L. Moody. He became famous not so much for his 20:06 sermons, but for his text because the only text 20:07 usually he would ever preach on was John 20:13 3:16. Henry Moorhead was preaching in a Welsh 20:18 mining town among some of the roughest, toughest, 20:19 meanest men in all of Wales. God was moving in 20:22 a mighty way. There was a man named Ike Miller who 20:26 lived in that town. Ike Miller was a drunkard, a 20:27 blasphemer, a brawler, and a bully. He was the 20:31 toughest of the tough; the meanest of the mean, and, 20:35 in a town that feared no one, everyone feared Ike 20:36 Miller. Ike Miller hated preachers, and he hated 20:40 church more than he hated anything else. When he got 20:46 wind of the revival that was going on in the little 20:47 tabernacle at the end of town, he sent word to 20:50 Henry Moorhead that if he preached that night, he 20:53 was personally going to come to the church and 20:54 pistol whip him, and then run him out of town. Now 20:58 Ike Miller was not a man of talk, he was a man of 21:03 action, and if he said it he meant it. Some of 21:04 the Christian men went to Henry Moorhead out 21:09 of love and concern, and tried to dissuade him from 21:13 preaching that night. They begged him to simply call 21:14 the meeting off. But Henry Moorhead refused and said, 21:18 "I am going to preach the gospel and trust God." 21:22 Well, that night the little tabernacle was 21:23 packed. Miller was nowhere to be seen and the crowd 21:28 was kind of relieved, but as Moorhead got up to 21:32 preach, the door burst open, and big burley Ike 21:33 Miller came walking in. He sat down with his arms 21:38 folded, glaring at the preacher with a killer 21:41 look that said, "You say one word, and I'm going to 21:42 beat you within an inch of your life." Henry 21:47 Moorhead, unruffled, simply began by reading 21:52 John 3:16. Then he began to preach on the love of 21:53 God, the life of Jesus, the joy of eternal 21:57 life. When he finished, Ike Miller hit his feet. 22:03 Everyone just stared in awe and fear, wondering if 22:04 he was going to carry out his threat. But instead, 22:08 he simply walked out of the building. As Ike 22:12 walked back toward his home, some of his old 22:13 friends called out from the bar to join them for 22:16 a drink. But to their surprise, this time Ike 22:20 did not join them; he just kept right on walking. He 22:21 walked down a little dirt road; came to a little one 22:26 room cottage surrounded by a little rickety fence. He 22:29 walked through that fence door and then opened 22:30 the door to his house and stepped in. There he 22:33 met his frail wife and two children. Those two 22:37 children ran like frightened mice and hid 22:38 under the bed. His little wife cowered down waiting 22:41 for another beating from a drunken profane husband. 22:46 But there was to be no beating this time. Ike 22:47 Miller looked at his wife and said, "Woman, you have 22:51 nothing to fear. Get the kids and bring them here. 22:56 We are going to pray." She said, "What did you say?" 22:57 He said, "Bring the kids here right now, we're 23:01 going to pray." Well, she went, got the kids out 23:06 from under the bed; they came in there trembling, 23:07 hiding behind her skirt. 23:11 He looked at those kids and barked, "Kneel down." 23:12 They knelt. He looked at his wife and said, "You 23:17 too!" She knelt. Then for the first time in their 23:23 life, they saw their daddy do something they thought 23:24 they would ever see him do. He knelt down. 23:27 He tried to pray. He said, "Oh God..." and then there 23:33 was dead silence. Because Ike Miller didn't know how 23:35 to pray. He didn't know what to say. He knew how 23:40 to curse; he knew how to yell and scream, but he 23:44 didn't know how to pray. 23:44 He tried again. He said, "Oh Lord..." But again 23:48 there was dead silence. 23:49 He was so embarrassed, and then he remembered a 23:53 prayer his mother taught him when he was just a 23:54 little boy, and this is what that big giant of a 23:59 man prayed: Gentle Jesus, meek and mild Look upon a 24:05 little child; Forgive my simplicity And suffer me 24:06 to come to Thee. At that moment Ike Miller, the 24:12 drunkard, the brawler, the blasphemer, the wife 24:19 abuser, the womanizer, was born again. Pastor Johnson 24:20 would you lead us in a word of prayer. 24:28 >>Pastor Mark: Father, thank you for letting 24:29 us know you have all the resources of Heaven to 24:32 come and help us to live a new life. Be with us each 24:37 as we seek to follow you. 24:38 And as we travel toward your kingdom give us the 24:45 strength so that day-by-day we become more 24:45 like Christ. In His name we pray. 24:50 Amen. >>Bill: Amen. 24:50 >>Pastor Oudri: Amen. 25:07 >>Bill: You know, if you're watching today's 25:08 program and you're thinking, you know, I need 25:10 to better understand God's will for my life, I need 25:13 to study God's word, well, we have a tremendous 25:15 resource to help you, it's called the Discovery 25:18 Bible Study Guides. These lessons come to your home, 25:22 postage-paid. You can complete them. It is an 25:23 excellent way to learn what God's will is 25:26 expressed in His Holy word. If you'd like to 25:32 begin that course of study, here's the 25:33 information you need to get your first lesson. 26:25 >>Bill: Well Pastor's thank you so much for 26:26 joining us here. Pastor Oudri remind us of your 26:28 churches website. >>Pastor Oudri: Absolutely. Thank 26:31 you. You can visit our website at 26:32 www.brontesda.org. >>Bill: And you guys are on Bronte 26:38 Road between, just north of Upper Middle Road, 26:42 right? >>Pastor Oudri: Absolutely. So, if you 26:43 take the QEW going to Niagara Falls or going to 26:46 Toronto go north and you hit the church in no time. 26:49 >>Bill: Wonderful. Pastor Johnson our viewers 26:50 probably don't know but you are the Chairman of 26:55 the It Is Written Canada board and, in essence, 26:57 you're my boss. And so.>>Pastor Mark: What 26:58 a privilege. >>Bill: (laughter)We appreciate 27:02 you and the leadership you have brought to the church 27:06 in Canada. Any closing words you have for our 27:07 viewers? >>Pastor Mark: I'm excited about the 27:11 fact that Jesus is coming again. That's why this 27:15 program is on the air. 27:16 And that's what life is all about. To be able to 27:21 figure out how to relate the fact that we're not 27:22 going to be here forever. 27:26 Jesus is coming soon. 27:26 >>Bill: Even so, come, Lord Jesus. >>Pastor Mark: 27:32 Amen. >>Bill: Let me thank our faithful viewers that 27:33 tune in each and every week. If you've enjoyed 27:38 this series or are enjoying this series on 27:41 the Fruit of the Spirit, I want to let you know that 27:42 at the completion of this series we will put all 27:44 of these programs on a DVD and we will make that 27:48 available to you for a donation of $40.00. You 27:49 can go on the website to pre-order your DVD today. 27:54 Itiswrittencanada.ca, that's the website. There 28:00 you can send a prayer request, you can comment 28:01 on the program, you can find out where the It 28:05 Is Written team will be appearing anywhere across 28:08 this great nation. You can watch this program and 28:09 all of our programs on our YouTube channel, 28:13 youtube.com/itiswrittencan ada. You can even follow 28:20 us on Twitter. Until next week the good Lord 28:21 willing, remember, it is written; man shall not 28:25 live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds 28:31 from the mouth of God. 28:35 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ |
Revised 2015-02-06