>>John Bradshaw:
This is It Is Written.
00:00:19.51\00:00:21.28
I'm John Bradshaw.
Thanks for joining me.
00:00:21.32\00:00:23.99
In an age of shocking crimes,
00:00:24.02\00:00:26.32
in an age where,
where mass shootings
00:00:26.35\00:00:28.66
just don't really
surprise us anymore,
00:00:28.69\00:00:31.39
in an age of unhinged
people committing heinous acts,
00:00:31.43\00:00:35.63
this one was
really very shocking.
00:00:35.66\00:00:38.73
Charleston, South
Carolina, was founded in 1670.
00:00:39.73\00:00:43.81
It's situated right
on the Atlantic coast
00:00:43.84\00:00:46.14
and was named in honor of
the English monarch at the time,
00:00:46.17\00:00:49.14
King Charles II.
00:00:49.18\00:00:51.18
A city with roots that deep
00:00:51.21\00:00:53.72
is clearly a place with
some interesting history.
00:00:53.75\00:00:56.55
And, given the
time periods involved--
00:00:56.58\00:00:58.79
colonization, slavery, the
Revolution, the Civil War--
00:00:58.82\00:01:03.63
some of that history is painful.
00:01:03.66\00:01:06.23
Just a few days
before summer began in 2015,
00:01:07.23\00:01:10.97
a 21-year-old South Carolina
man traveled to Charleston
00:01:11.00\00:01:14.74
with malice on his mind.
00:01:14.77\00:01:16.64
The young man who
came to Charleston that day
00:01:16.67\00:01:18.77
possessed a
sickened mind and a gun.
00:01:18.81\00:01:22.18
A combustible mixture.
00:01:22.21\00:01:24.21
He came here to
Emmanuel AME Church
00:01:25.85\00:01:29.58
fully intending to do harm--
00:01:29.62\00:01:31.39
or more to the point,
fully intending to take life.
00:01:31.42\00:01:35.22
Motivated by racial hatred,
he mingled with worshipers
00:01:35.26\00:01:38.43
at the mid-week Bible study,
00:01:38.46\00:01:40.50
biding his time until
he fired almost 80 shots
00:01:40.53\00:01:45.57
and took nine lives.
00:01:45.60\00:01:46.80
He murdered six
women and three men.
00:01:46.84\00:01:50.41
He was arrested the next
day almost 250 miles away.
00:01:50.44\00:01:53.84
It's not easy to imagine the
impact of an event like this.
00:01:54.54\00:01:58.28
Think of it this way.
00:01:58.31\00:01:59.75
In September of 1989, at least
two dozen South Carolinians
00:01:59.78\00:02:04.35
died when Hurricane Hugo
battered parts of the state.
00:02:04.39\00:02:08.52
Now, of course, a
tragedy is a tragedy,
00:02:08.56\00:02:11.06
but this was
nature; things happen.
00:02:11.09\00:02:13.16
Earthquakes and tornadoes and
hurricanes are to be expected.
00:02:13.19\00:02:16.77
But what happened in
June of 2015 was different,
00:02:16.80\00:02:20.10
very different, in fact.
00:02:20.14\00:02:22.34
When a person dies in a
natural disaster, for example,
00:02:23.34\00:02:26.81
there are some
survival mechanisms,
00:02:26.84\00:02:29.44
some psychological
mechanisms survivors
00:02:29.48\00:02:32.25
or those affected by
the tragedy can default to.
00:02:32.28\00:02:35.88
In spite of, "This isn't fair."
00:02:35.92\00:02:38.35
In spite of, "Why
did this happen to us?"
00:02:38.39\00:02:40.92
In spite of, "Life
is rough right now."
00:02:40.96\00:02:43.86
In spite of a sense of
helplessness and anger,
00:02:43.89\00:02:45.96
what we know is that
natural disasters happen.
00:02:45.99\00:02:48.40
We know that
cancer, for example,
00:02:48.43\00:02:50.50
heart disease,
strokes, they occur.
00:02:50.53\00:02:53.47
It was terribly
sad that Grandma died,
00:02:53.50\00:02:55.30
but, after all, people do die.
00:02:55.34\00:02:58.71
But how do you wrestle
with something like that?
00:02:58.74\00:03:01.84
Nine people didn't simply die
here in Charleston that night.
00:03:01.88\00:03:06.11
They had their lives snatched
away due to a deliberate,
00:03:06.15\00:03:09.78
thought-out,
planned act of hatred.
00:03:09.82\00:03:12.82
Children were
left without parents.
00:03:12.85\00:03:14.82
Parents lost their children.
00:03:14.86\00:03:16.99
Siblings and friends and
neighbors and colleagues,
00:03:17.03\00:03:20.06
all had to wrestle with a
radically altered existence,
00:03:20.10\00:03:23.40
one that contained
now some very big holes.
00:03:23.43\00:03:28.00
People went to church
that night--to church--
00:03:28.04\00:03:32.07
to worship, to pray,
to study the Word of God.
00:03:32.11\00:03:36.98
This was hideous.
00:03:37.01\00:03:39.25
We know how God
feels about murder.
00:03:40.18\00:03:42.08
The sixth commandment
is probably best expressed
00:03:42.12\00:03:45.25
when it's translated,
"Thou shalt not murder."
00:03:45.29\00:03:48.89
This is truly disastrous.
00:03:48.92\00:03:51.83
So how do you go on when
somebody you love is murdered
00:03:51.86\00:03:54.93
in circumstances like these,
00:03:54.93\00:03:57.03
by a person who
sought out innocent people
00:03:57.07\00:03:59.90
for the purpose of doing
something ultimately hateful?
00:03:59.93\00:04:03.81
Well, we're about to find out.
00:04:03.84\00:04:06.47
Myra Thompson was there
that night at the church
00:04:06.51\00:04:09.28
often referred to
as "Mother Emmanuel."
00:04:09.31\00:04:11.98
She was among the
nine people murdered.
00:04:12.01\00:04:14.62
Her husband Anthony has
made the remarkable decision
00:04:14.65\00:04:17.42
to forgive the man who
killed not only his wife,
00:04:17.45\00:04:20.82
but eight others.
00:04:20.86\00:04:22.86
Thank you so
much for joining me.
00:04:24.36\00:04:25.46
I appreciate it greatly.
00:04:25.49\00:04:27.23
It was June 17,
2015. What happened?
00:04:27.23\00:04:30.90
>>Pastor Anthony
Thompson: Someone called me
00:04:32.50\00:04:34.14
from the church--
00:04:34.17\00:04:35.97
not from the church--
00:04:36.00\00:04:37.04
it was a member of
Emmanuel AME Church called me
00:04:37.07\00:04:39.31
and, and told me that shooting
was going on at the church,
00:04:39.34\00:04:43.98
and somebody was
shooting outside.
00:04:44.01\00:04:46.75
That's, at least, I
thought it was outside.
00:04:46.78\00:04:48.22
So I, I took
off out of my house.
00:04:48.25\00:04:49.82
I, I drove down, found out
that shooting was taking place
00:04:49.85\00:04:56.32
inside the church,
not outside the church.
00:04:56.36\00:04:59.56
Then I was told that
family members had been moved
00:04:59.59\00:05:02.56
from the church to a hotel.
00:05:02.60\00:05:04.23
So I thought
everything was okay,
00:05:04.27\00:05:06.53
until I got there,
00:05:06.57\00:05:08.07
found out that
ambulances were parked outside.
00:05:08.10\00:05:12.37
Nine.
00:05:12.41\00:05:13.64
So I thought, had to be more
to it than what I had been told.
00:05:13.68\00:05:19.08
And once I searched,
trying to find my wife,
00:05:19.11\00:05:21.68
frantically
searching, trying to find her,
00:05:21.72\00:05:24.55
and trying to get
into Emmanuel AME Church,
00:05:24.59\00:05:27.76
I discovered...I
lost my best friend,
00:05:27.79\00:05:32.66
the one I love the most.
00:05:32.69\00:05:34.83
And, uh... [inhales and exhales]
00:05:34.86\00:05:38.50
it kind of took
everything out of me.
00:05:38.53\00:05:41.37
>>John: You made a
remarkable decision, however.
00:05:41.40\00:05:43.71
This was a crime intentionally
perpetrated by a hate-filled man
00:05:43.74\00:05:47.38
bent on causing pain,
perpetrating violence,
00:05:47.41\00:05:52.05
and, and starting a race war.
00:05:52.08\00:05:54.18
>>Pastor Thompson: Mm-hmm.
00:05:54.22\00:05:55.85
>>John: But you
didn't take the bait.
00:05:55.88\00:05:58.42
And somehow you and others
made a decision to forgive,
00:05:58.45\00:06:03.59
a decision I'm sure some
people would think is crazy.
00:06:03.63\00:06:06.56
Let's get to that in a
moment, but I want to ask you,
00:06:06.59\00:06:09.03
how were you able to make the
decision to forgive, and why?
00:06:09.06\00:06:14.14
>>Pastor Thompson: Well,
the decision to forgive Dylann
00:06:14.17\00:06:17.31
came easy.
00:06:17.34\00:06:19.54
Not for me, but easy in a
way that God stepped in and,
00:06:19.57\00:06:24.45
and made it possible,
00:06:24.48\00:06:26.15
because He put me in a
place in the bond hearing,
00:06:26.18\00:06:30.29
a place where I
didn't want to be.
00:06:30.32\00:06:32.49
Then when I got there,
He had me to say something
00:06:32.52\00:06:37.46
that I had no idea
I was going to say.
00:06:37.49\00:06:40.00
And that was to forgive him.
00:06:40.03\00:06:42.03
And so, that's what I
mean when I say it was easy.
00:06:42.06\00:06:45.23
But then...you know, after
thinking about it for some time
00:06:45.27\00:06:50.97
after actually doing it,
00:06:51.01\00:06:53.74
I realized that He had been
preparing me for that moment
00:06:53.78\00:06:57.28
for a long time.
00:06:57.31\00:06:58.81
>>John: Why do you think it
was that you chose to forgive
00:06:58.85\00:07:01.05
when so easily
you could have said,
00:07:01.08\00:07:02.72
"I'm not going to forgive,"
00:07:02.75\00:07:03.72
and you, you could have
stood up in that hearing
00:07:03.75\00:07:05.82
and said all
manner of unkind things?
00:07:05.85\00:07:08.82
Why did you make that choice?
00:07:08.86\00:07:10.16
>>Pastor Thompson: Well...
00:07:10.19\00:07:12.83
first, I didn't want Dylann
to have control over my life.
00:07:12.86\00:07:16.50
I didn't want him to have
control over my children's life.
00:07:16.53\00:07:20.30
I wanted to just be rid of him.
00:07:20.34\00:07:22.80
And one way of being rid
of him was to forgive him
00:07:22.84\00:07:25.81
so that then his intentions
of starting a race war wouldn't,
00:07:25.84\00:07:30.41
wouldn't happen.
00:07:30.45\00:07:32.25
And, if I'd gone
the opposite way,
00:07:32.28\00:07:35.02
well, I would
have gave in to him,
00:07:35.05\00:07:36.75
and he would
have been in control.
00:07:36.79\00:07:38.82
And so forgiveness was
a way of releasing myself
00:07:38.85\00:07:42.12
from his control.
00:07:42.16\00:07:43.09
>>John: And clearly
that's what you've done.
00:07:43.12\00:07:44.43
You've released yourself
from the control of the person
00:07:44.46\00:07:46.86
who committed this
terrible act of violence.
00:07:46.90\00:07:49.63
I wonder if some people would
say you let him off the hook.
00:07:49.66\00:07:53.40
>>Pastor Thompson: Yes.
Some people have said that.
00:07:53.44\00:07:56.17
Some people said
that they don't see how
00:07:56.20\00:07:59.41
I could forgive him
because it's like saying,
00:07:59.44\00:08:03.31
I don't want
anything to happen to him;
00:08:03.35\00:08:04.65
I don't want him to be punished.
00:08:04.68\00:08:07.28
And, um, my answer was, "No,
it was letting me off the hook."
00:08:07.32\00:08:11.32
Dylann is being punished.
00:08:11.35\00:08:12.82
Dylann is in jail--
00:08:12.85\00:08:13.86
nine, nine counts of,
uh, the death sentence.
00:08:13.89\00:08:17.19
And so I'm not
letting him off the hook;
00:08:17.23\00:08:18.73
I'm letting myself off the hook,
00:08:18.76\00:08:20.73
you know, from
having him have control,
00:08:20.76\00:08:23.06
from, from me being angry,
00:08:23.10\00:08:25.10
and from me hating him and
just making my life miserable.
00:08:25.13\00:08:27.87
Because if I had not forgiven
Dylann, you know, the anger
00:08:27.90\00:08:32.81
and harboring anger and
hate in my heart for him
00:08:32.84\00:08:35.01
would only destroy my life.
00:08:35.04\00:08:36.54
>>John: What sort of
man would you be today
00:08:36.58\00:08:38.55
if you'd not made
the choice to forgive?
00:08:38.58\00:08:42.58
>>Pastor Thompson: I probably
wouldn't be at this church.
00:08:42.62\00:08:45.39
Because, first
thing came to my mind was,
00:08:45.42\00:08:49.69
what, what am I going to
do? I have no more purpose.
00:08:49.72\00:08:53.23
And I was thinking, well, does
that mean leaving the church?
00:08:53.26\00:08:56.10
So, I probably wouldn't be here.
00:08:56.13\00:08:58.33
Could have just continued
to pity myself and pity myself.
00:08:58.37\00:09:03.00
I don't think it
would have been good.
00:09:03.04\00:09:05.14
My life probably would
have changed drastically.
00:09:05.17\00:09:07.14
You know, I probably
would have gone from God
00:09:07.18\00:09:08.81
to not depending on
Him, depending on myself.
00:09:08.84\00:09:12.05
Could have led to drinking,
drugs, uh, I don't know.
00:09:12.08\00:09:15.18
You know, it could have
gone quite the opposite.
00:09:15.22\00:09:17.75
>>John: Here's another unknown,
00:09:17.79\00:09:19.02
although people
have speculated on this.
00:09:19.05\00:09:21.86
Your decision to forgive, the
decision made by you and others,
00:09:21.89\00:09:24.69
to forgive a murderer had a
very powerful effect on a city.
00:09:24.73\00:09:29.80
>>Pastor Thompson: Mmm.
00:09:29.83\00:09:30.80
>>John: Tell me about that,
00:09:30.83\00:09:31.97
how the city of Charleston
was impacted by forgiveness.
00:09:32.00\00:09:35.40
>>Pastor Thompson:
Well, the city of Charleston
00:09:35.44\00:09:37.91
was not looking for forgiveness.
00:09:37.94\00:09:40.01
They were looking
for us to start a riot,
00:09:40.04\00:09:41.84
to start the race
war like Dylann wanted.
00:09:41.88\00:09:43.95
And from that not happening,
it just put everybody in awe,
00:09:43.98\00:09:51.02
gave them time to think--
what, what just happened?
00:09:51.05\00:09:55.16
You know, why?
00:09:55.19\00:09:57.13
What was that? You know.
00:09:57.16\00:09:59.43
And, and then immediately
everybody just hold hands
00:09:59.46\00:10:03.57
and hugged, cried together,
00:10:03.60\00:10:06.17
you know, uh, brought flowers
00:10:06.20\00:10:07.70
and put them in front
of the church together.
00:10:07.74\00:10:09.37
And spent days, I mean, the
city of Charleston was crowded;
00:10:09.40\00:10:12.51
the downtown area was so crowded
traffic couldn't even move
00:10:12.54\00:10:16.38
because the
people wouldn't move.
00:10:16.41\00:10:17.48
The people just wanted
to be attached to somebody.
00:10:17.51\00:10:20.12
And it didn't matter what
your race was or what your color
00:10:20.15\00:10:23.18
or your culture was or
how different you spoke.
00:10:23.22\00:10:25.79
You know, we, we just
wanted to communicate.
00:10:25.82\00:10:27.99
We, we, you know, it was like,
00:10:28.02\00:10:30.79
it was like we all
had a sense of family
00:10:30.83\00:10:34.40
'cause somebody came and
just destroyed and killed
00:10:34.46\00:10:38.33
some people in our family,
like brothers and sisters,
00:10:38.37\00:10:40.57
and so we came together
like brothers and sisters,
00:10:40.60\00:10:42.70
like, you know,
"Oh my God," you know,
00:10:42.74\00:10:44.24
you know, "Myra's gone."
00:10:44.27\00:10:46.24
You know, "Tywanza, he's gone."
00:10:46.27\00:10:49.11
You know, just like you,
like they lost somebody, too.
00:10:49.14\00:10:53.01
And so it gave everybody a sense
of just wanting to be together,
00:10:53.05\00:10:55.52
being a, being a family,
00:10:55.55\00:10:56.52
and that's what we're
trying to work on now.
00:10:56.55\00:10:58.32
>>John: There's
power in forgiveness.
00:10:58.35\00:10:59.72
There is power in forgiveness.
00:10:59.75\00:11:01.39
Looking forward to talking more
with Pastor Anthony Thompson
00:11:01.42\00:11:03.66
about this in just a moment.
00:11:03.69\00:11:05.93
¤[music]¤
00:11:05.96\00:11:11.10
>>Announcer: We
hear it all the time:
00:11:15.10\00:11:17.01
God is
all-powerful, and God is love.
00:11:17.04\00:11:19.77
But if God is so
powerful and loving,
00:11:19.81\00:11:22.08
why is there so much suffering?
00:11:22.11\00:11:24.15
Discover what the
Bible says on the subject
00:11:24.18\00:11:26.11
by requesting
today's free offer,
00:11:26.15\00:11:28.15
"Why Does God Allow Suffering?"
00:11:28.18\00:11:29.78
It's absolutely free.
00:11:29.82\00:11:31.35
Just call 800-253-3000,
00:11:31.39\00:11:34.92
800-253-3000,
00:11:34.96\00:11:38.06
or write to the
address on your screen.
00:11:38.09\00:11:39.79
You can also make
your request online
00:11:39.83\00:11:41.40
at iiwoffer.com.
00:11:41.43\00:11:43.77
>>John Bradshaw: Thanks for
joining me on It Is Written.
00:11:45.27\00:11:47.77
My very special guest
is Pastor Anthony Thompson,
00:11:47.80\00:11:50.57
whose book, "Called to Forgive,"
00:11:50.61\00:11:52.41
recounts the terrible tragedy
in Charleston, South Carolina,
00:11:52.44\00:11:56.44
in 2015 and its aftermath.
00:11:56.48\00:11:59.75
Uh, tell me about the
process of writing that book.
00:11:59.78\00:12:02.78
It had to be
painful, therapeutic.
00:12:02.82\00:12:05.99
How was that for you?
00:12:06.02\00:12:07.42
>>Pastor Anthony
Thompson: Well, initially,
00:12:07.46\00:12:08.79
I didn't want to
write immediately
00:12:08.82\00:12:11.19
because...we had
people coming at us
00:12:11.23\00:12:15.40
from all different
kind of directions,
00:12:15.43\00:12:17.33
and didn't have time to mourn,
00:12:17.37\00:12:19.80
barely had time to
think about what had happened.
00:12:19.83\00:12:22.70
And I didn't want to re-live
that, you know, not at the time.
00:12:22.74\00:12:27.58
And so, um, I
gave it some prayer,
00:12:27.61\00:12:30.51
with the help of other
people praying with me.
00:12:30.55\00:12:33.68
And then,
eventually, I started speaking,
00:12:33.72\00:12:38.02
started speaking
to different crowds,
00:12:38.05\00:12:40.56
different
churches, organizations,
00:12:40.59\00:12:42.92
and as I spoke,
it was like venting,
00:12:42.96\00:12:46.39
and I could feel myself
being relieved day by day.
00:12:46.43\00:12:49.96
But then after a while, after
realizing the real purpose,
00:12:50.00\00:12:55.77
that God wanted
this to be a mission
00:12:55.80\00:12:59.04
and spread the
gospel of forgiveness,
00:12:59.07\00:13:01.94
is when I heard the people
seeking, seeking something,
00:13:01.98\00:13:05.31
some kind of peace,
00:13:05.35\00:13:06.58
wanting to know how--
"What is forgiveness?"
00:13:06.61\00:13:08.05
"How does it work?"
You know, "What can I do?"
00:13:08.08\00:13:10.12
And then it kicked in.
00:13:10.15\00:13:12.75
You know what, yeah, I
need to write this book.
00:13:12.79\00:13:14.99
>>John: It's interesting,
as a minister of the gospel,
00:13:15.02\00:13:16.93
forgiveness is your
thing; it's what you talk about.
00:13:16.96\00:13:18.79
It, the, the gospel
is about forgiveness.
00:13:18.83\00:13:21.40
A sinful world, we need
reconciliation with God.
00:13:21.43\00:13:24.73
So talk to me
about your understanding,
00:13:24.77\00:13:27.54
your experience in
God's forgiveness towards us.
00:13:27.57\00:13:31.11
How do you understand that more
differently or more completely,
00:13:31.14\00:13:33.61
now that you've been called
to forgive in a very real,
00:13:33.64\00:13:39.31
very raw sort of a way?
00:13:39.35\00:13:41.48
>>Pastor Thompson:
Before this actually happened,
00:13:41.52\00:13:43.75
before God
intervened...you know,
00:13:43.79\00:13:47.86
I didn't give forgiveness a real
thought, a real deep thought.
00:13:47.89\00:13:52.86
All I knew was that I
was a forgiven person,
00:13:52.89\00:13:55.76
and some of the things
that I experienced in my life
00:13:55.80\00:13:58.83
from my childhood--I
went through some things that,
00:13:58.87\00:14:01.00
uh, some people who
offended me, you know--
00:14:01.04\00:14:04.27
I forgave them in the past.
00:14:04.31\00:14:06.81
And, but never really
experienced the kind of peace
00:14:06.84\00:14:11.48
that I experienced
when I forgave Dylann
00:14:11.51\00:14:13.98
at the bond
hearing that day, you know,
00:14:14.02\00:14:16.52
because what he did to my wife,
it was completely different.
00:14:16.55\00:14:21.09
Um, and so, I saw
forgiveness then as,
00:14:21.12\00:14:27.00
well, something I'm
supposed to do, you know.
00:14:27.03\00:14:30.43
And I knew that it, if I did it,
00:14:30.47\00:14:33.07
something good
would come out of it.
00:14:33.10\00:14:35.47
But then when I forgave Dylann,
00:14:35.50\00:14:36.91
it was more than
something good came out of it.
00:14:36.94\00:14:39.31
It was, I
received a peace, you know,
00:14:39.34\00:14:44.75
I mean, a, a calmness,
00:14:44.78\00:14:47.72
a more sense of
letting God have control,
00:14:47.75\00:14:52.15
knowing that I
could trust Him, you know,
00:14:52.19\00:14:56.32
because of what He
brought into my life,
00:14:56.36\00:14:59.19
where He gave me new purpose.
00:14:59.23\00:15:01.60
And so it was that,
that, it was different...
00:15:01.63\00:15:05.87
at the tragedy than it
was prior to the tragedy.
00:15:05.90\00:15:09.37
>>John: Undoubtedly there
are many people watching us
00:15:09.40\00:15:11.01
right now who are struggling
to forgive, refusing to forgive.
00:15:11.04\00:15:16.24
"I know I should
forgive, but I won't.
00:15:16.28\00:15:18.88
It hurts too much."
00:15:18.91\00:15:20.18
This and that.
00:15:20.22\00:15:21.25
What would you say to
that person that's wrestling
00:15:21.28\00:15:22.98
with forgiveness?
00:15:23.02\00:15:24.12
How does someone go
about forgiving another person?
00:15:24.15\00:15:27.99
>>Pastor Thompson: I would say,
00:15:28.02\00:15:29.12
right now, I
know you're hurting.
00:15:29.16\00:15:32.16
You know, I know somebody
did something to offend you,
00:15:32.19\00:15:35.10
and, and it hurts you, and you
probably want to get them back.
00:15:35.13\00:15:39.33
You know, you
probably hate the person.
00:15:39.37\00:15:41.44
You're probably
angry at that person.
00:15:41.47\00:15:43.54
And you feel
you've got to do that
00:15:43.57\00:15:46.74
because it's going
to make you feel better.
00:15:46.78\00:15:49.31
Well, I'm going
to let you know now:
00:15:49.34\00:15:50.65
It won't make you feel better.
It'll make you feel worse.
00:15:50.68\00:15:54.08
Because harboring
anger and harboring hate,
00:15:54.12\00:15:57.29
it affects your
health; it affects your mind;
00:15:57.32\00:16:00.52
you know, it just
affects your soul.
00:16:00.56\00:16:02.06
And you just get
deeper and deeper
00:16:02.09\00:16:04.56
and deeper and
deeper until, till,
00:16:04.59\00:16:06.96
till wanting to
do something bad.
00:16:07.00\00:16:09.23
But forgiveness is,
it may be hard to do,
00:16:09.26\00:16:13.23
but God can help you.
00:16:13.27\00:16:15.90
All you need to do is
to ask God to forgive you;
00:16:15.94\00:16:20.48
then ask God to help
you forgive the person
00:16:20.51\00:16:22.71
you can't seem to forgive.
00:16:22.74\00:16:24.65
And that's all
He'll require of you,
00:16:24.68\00:16:26.18
and He will help you do it.
00:16:26.21\00:16:28.08
You will do it.
00:16:28.12\00:16:29.32
And when you do it, I
guarantee you 100 percent
00:16:29.35\00:16:33.05
that He will give you that
peace that you've been trying
00:16:33.09\00:16:35.82
to find through other means
of being angry and revenge.
00:16:35.86\00:16:39.16
>>John: How
about, though, though--
00:16:39.19\00:16:41.90
someone's going to say, "Yeah,
my neighbor backed into my car
00:16:41.93\00:16:45.07
and then lied about
it. Cost me $1,100."
00:16:45.10\00:16:48.57
But that's that. But
what about the big things?
00:16:48.60\00:16:53.84
And you're
qualified to speak about this
00:16:53.88\00:16:55.44
'cause you went
through the biggest thing.
00:16:55.48\00:16:57.85
Help someone get over that hump.
00:16:57.88\00:16:59.95
'Cause I can just
imagine somebody saying,
00:17:00.05\00:17:02.08
"Yeah, I, I understand that,
00:17:02.12\00:17:03.49
but you don't know
what I've been through."
00:17:03.52\00:17:06.45
How do we address that with
the really difficult things?
00:17:06.49\00:17:09.66
[inhales and exhales]
00:17:09.69\00:17:11.79
>>Pastor Thompson: We
can make things difficult,
00:17:11.83\00:17:13.43
because we, we, we
define sin as small sin,
00:17:13.46\00:17:18.90
as big sin.
00:17:18.93\00:17:20.34
We look at lying
as something small.
00:17:20.37\00:17:22.47
"Well, I can do
that. I can forgive them."
00:17:22.50\00:17:24.04
Then we look at murders.
00:17:24.07\00:17:25.17
"Oh, that's, that's just
too, that's just too much.
00:17:25.21\00:17:27.41
I can't forgive him."
00:17:27.44\00:17:28.88
But sin is a sin.
00:17:28.91\00:17:31.71
You know, wrong
is wrong; bad is bad.
00:17:31.75\00:17:34.82
There's no
greater; there's no lesser;
00:17:34.85\00:17:36.95
they're all the same.
00:17:36.99\00:17:37.95
So, you've got to
take a look at that first.
00:17:37.99\00:17:40.49
You know, then you've got to
take a look at your own life.
00:17:40.52\00:17:42.92
You've got to examine
yourself and say to yourself,
00:17:42.96\00:17:46.66
"Who have I done wrong
to? Who have I lied to?"
00:17:46.70\00:17:48.53
What, you know, you
know, was it, was it a big sin,
00:17:48.56\00:17:51.50
or was it a small sin?
00:17:51.53\00:17:52.83
There's no, no greater.
00:17:52.87\00:17:54.60
And then if you can
see yourself as a person
00:17:54.64\00:17:58.17
who's done somebody
wrong or said something wrong,
00:17:58.21\00:18:00.31
then it makes it a little
easier for you to see the person
00:18:00.34\00:18:03.01
that did you wrong,
00:18:03.04\00:18:04.11
no matter how big, how
small you may see it to be.
00:18:04.15\00:18:06.82
But there's no bigger sin,
and there's no smaller sin.
00:18:06.85\00:18:08.88
Sin is sin.
00:18:08.92\00:18:10.55
>>John: And if we
look at the Bible,
00:18:10.59\00:18:11.85
we understand that Jesus
died, not because of your sin;
00:18:11.89\00:18:16.12
He died because of my sin.
00:18:16.16\00:18:17.83
So, I'm responsible for
the death of the Son of God,
00:18:17.86\00:18:20.90
and surely that ought
to motivate me somehow
00:18:20.93\00:18:23.37
to exercise forgiveness.
00:18:23.40\00:18:25.33
Jesus said, didn't He,
"Father, forgive them."
00:18:25.37\00:18:30.04
"Father, forgive them."
00:18:30.07\00:18:31.64
As a minister of the gospel,
00:18:31.67\00:18:33.54
what does that
example of forgiveness
00:18:33.58\00:18:35.51
exercised or demonstrated
by Jesus mean to you,
00:18:35.54\00:18:38.01
and how do you share that
and relate that to others?
00:18:38.05\00:18:41.65
>>Pastor Thompson:
It means a lot to me,
00:18:41.68\00:18:43.45
'cause first of all, the pain
and the suffering that He took.
00:18:43.49\00:18:48.46
I mean, He, He was, He, He was
beaten as He walked to Calvary.
00:18:48.49\00:18:54.13
You know, He, He,
they, they took a whip with,
00:18:54.20\00:18:57.73
tied with bones and,
and, and, and like glass,
00:18:57.77\00:19:01.27
like metal on the
end of the tips of it,
00:19:01.30\00:19:03.41
just tore Him, ripped His body.
00:19:03.44\00:19:05.37
Then they put crowns
of thorns on His head.
00:19:05.41\00:19:07.11
Then they took, set the
spear in His side, you know,
00:19:07.14\00:19:10.35
where the blood and the water
surrounding His, His heart,
00:19:10.38\00:19:14.12
you know, just
came down His body.
00:19:14.15\00:19:16.12
And then, they nailed Him
to the cross, hands and feet.
00:19:16.15\00:19:20.32
I mean, that's
real pain and suffering.
00:19:20.36\00:19:22.79
But He didn't have to do
it. He did it for you and me.
00:19:22.82\00:19:26.06
And He said,
"Father, forgive them."
00:19:26.09\00:19:29.00
So, if He can do all that
for me and do all that for you,
00:19:29.03\00:19:34.97
then we should be able
to forgive someone who does,
00:19:35.00\00:19:37.97
who's done
something so small to us.
00:19:38.01\00:19:42.64
You know, I mean,
00:19:42.68\00:19:45.48
for God's sake, you
know, forgive that person.
00:19:45.51\00:19:48.78
>>John: "Called to Forgive."
00:19:48.82\00:19:50.75
If anybody knows
something about forgiveness,
00:19:50.79\00:19:53.09
it's Pastor Anthony Thompson.
00:19:53.12\00:19:54.42
We'll have a little
more in just a moment.
00:19:54.46\00:19:56.46
¤[music]¤
00:19:56.49\00:20:02.56
>>Announcer: We
hear it all the time:
00:20:05.63\00:20:07.57
God is
all-powerful, and God is love.
00:20:07.60\00:20:10.41
But if God is so
powerful and loving,
00:20:10.44\00:20:12.64
why is there so much suffering?
00:20:12.67\00:20:14.78
Discover what the
Bible says on the subject
00:20:14.81\00:20:16.78
by requesting
today's free offer,
00:20:16.81\00:20:18.61
"Why Does God Allow Suffering?"
00:20:18.65\00:20:20.42
It's absolutely free.
00:20:20.45\00:20:22.02
Just call 800-253-3000,
00:20:22.05\00:20:25.49
800-253-3000,
00:20:25.52\00:20:28.52
or write to the
address on your screen.
00:20:28.56\00:20:30.19
You can also make
your request online
00:20:30.23\00:20:31.69
at iiwoffer.com.
00:20:31.73\00:20:34.10
>>John Bradshaw: It was
like a ticking time bomb
00:20:35.83\00:20:37.97
just waiting to explode.
00:20:38.00\00:20:39.80
And when it did, a
city was plunged into chaos.
00:20:39.83\00:20:43.57
A town was completely destroyed,
00:20:43.61\00:20:45.91
more than 300
people were left dead,
00:20:45.94\00:20:48.81
and thousands left homeless.
00:20:48.84\00:20:51.18
It remains one of the
nation's least-known atrocities,
00:20:51.21\00:20:54.62
yet it was one of the
most destructive race riots
00:20:54.65\00:20:57.42
in United States history.
00:20:57.45\00:20:58.82
¤[harmonica music]¤
00:20:58.85\00:21:00.19
Join It Is Written on
location in Tulsa, Oklahoma,
00:21:00.22\00:21:03.83
for "Black Wall Street"
00:21:03.86\00:21:05.96
as we look at
the problem of evil.
00:21:05.99\00:21:09.00
We'll investigate the
destruction of a community
00:21:09.03\00:21:11.60
and ask some
searching questions.
00:21:11.63\00:21:13.57
¤[somber music]¤
How can this happen?
00:21:13.60\00:21:15.70
And who would do such a thing?
00:21:15.74\00:21:17.61
How do good people
commit truly wicked acts?
00:21:17.64\00:21:20.94
"Black Wall Street"
will take you there,
00:21:20.98\00:21:22.94
to the very streets
where evil reared its ugly head
00:21:22.98\00:21:26.21
in a way not often seen.
00:21:26.25\00:21:28.32
Don't miss "Black Wall
Street" on It Is Written TV.
00:21:28.35\00:21:33.36
>>John Bradshaw: Thanks for
joining me on It Is Written.
00:21:36.42\00:21:39.09
As we talk about
forgiveness, let me ask you.
00:21:39.13\00:21:41.46
You preach about it;
you've written about it.
00:21:41.50\00:21:43.13
Forgiveness in the
Bible, where do we see it?
00:21:43.16\00:21:45.63
>>Pastor Anthony
Thompson: The two servants.
00:21:45.67\00:21:47.50
There was a servant
who owed his, his master.
00:21:47.54\00:21:50.91
In today's money, it'd be
like a million or more dollars.
00:21:50.94\00:21:53.71
And the master was ready to
collect, and the servant said,
00:21:53.74\00:21:56.88
"Well, you know,
Lord, I don't have it."
00:21:56.91\00:21:59.35
You know, and he begged
for mercy, you know, said,
00:21:59.38\00:22:00.95
"Hey, look, I'll
pay you later, you know.
00:22:00.98\00:22:03.05
I'll pay you as soon as I can."
00:22:03.08\00:22:04.92
He said, "But
just have mercy on me."
00:22:04.95\00:22:07.29
And he had mercy on him.
00:22:07.32\00:22:08.32
And he
relinquished his servant's debt.
00:22:08.36\00:22:11.63
I mean, he didn't
even have to pay him back.
00:22:11.66\00:22:13.13
In other words, he forgave him.
00:22:13.16\00:22:15.16
And then that same servant,
he was master to a servant,
00:22:15.20\00:22:18.87
and his servant owed
him maybe a few bucks.
00:22:18.90\00:22:21.44
And he told the man,
00:22:21.47\00:22:22.67
"I'm going to throw you
in jail until you pay me."
00:22:22.70\00:22:26.04
Now, the
ridiculous part is that,
00:22:26.07\00:22:27.68
well, while he's in
jail, he can't pay him.
00:22:27.71\00:22:30.51
So it means that he
was never going to pay him,
00:22:30.55\00:22:32.08
so he was always
going to be in jail.
00:22:32.11\00:22:34.88
Then the master who
forgave him found out
00:22:34.92\00:22:39.02
that he had thrown his servant
into jail, and then he said,
00:22:39.05\00:22:42.12
"You know, I forgave you,
00:22:42.16\00:22:43.49
and you could not
forgive your servant?"
00:22:43.53\00:22:45.69
He says, "So now I'm
going to throw you in jail,
00:22:45.73\00:22:48.13
and you're going to
stay there, you know,
00:22:48.16\00:22:49.66
until you can pay me back."
00:22:49.70\00:22:51.37
Meaning that, you
know, it was over for him.
00:22:51.40\00:22:54.74
And so, the story is
that, you know, God is saying,
00:22:54.77\00:23:00.08
"If you want me to forgive you,
00:23:00.11\00:23:03.08
then you have to forgive
the person who did you wrong."
00:23:03.11\00:23:06.15
>>John: Forgiveness is so
fundamental to the gospel,
00:23:06.18\00:23:08.35
but we wrestle with it.
00:23:08.38\00:23:09.32
Forgiveness
sometimes seems so very hard,
00:23:09.35\00:23:11.75
but as you know,
unforgiveness is much harder.
00:23:11.79\00:23:15.59
>>Pastor Thompson: Much harder.
00:23:15.62\00:23:16.96
>>John: Tell me
about your wife, Myra.
00:23:16.99\00:23:18.43
What was she like?
00:23:18.46\00:23:19.53
>>Pastor Thompson: Mmm.
Myra was a beautiful woman.
00:23:19.56\00:23:21.83
Uh, very extraordinary
woman, very loving.
00:23:21.86\00:23:24.53
She wasn't a
stranger to anybody.
00:23:24.57\00:23:26.87
She was a giver.
00:23:26.90\00:23:28.20
Everybody loved Myra.
00:23:28.24\00:23:29.80
Myra loved everybody.
00:23:29.84\00:23:31.21
>>John: What do you
think she'd say to somebody
00:23:31.24\00:23:32.67
wrestling with a decision
to forgive or otherwise?
00:23:32.71\00:23:36.51
>>Pastor Thompson:
Mmm. She would tell them,
00:23:36.54\00:23:40.38
"I don't know why
you drank that poison,
00:23:40.42\00:23:42.32
think it's going to
kill somebody else."
00:23:42.35\00:23:44.05
[laughs]
00:23:44.09\00:23:45.62
"You need to go
ahead and forgive them."
00:23:45.65\00:23:47.42
You know, you just need
to go ahead and forgive them.
00:23:47.46\00:23:50.33
Because that, you, you,
00:23:50.36\00:23:53.16
you drinking the poison not
going to kill them, you know.
00:23:53.19\00:23:55.83
You holding hate in your
heart or anger in your heart,
00:23:55.86\00:23:58.53
that's not going to
do anything to them.
00:23:58.57\00:24:00.37
It's going to make
your life miserable.
00:24:00.40\00:24:01.67
You're going to die
from the poison, not them.
00:24:01.70\00:24:04.41
So, don't drink
the poison. Forgive.
00:24:04.44\00:24:08.18
>>John: Thanks so very much.
00:24:08.21\00:24:09.18
I appreciate you
taking your time.
00:24:09.21\00:24:10.18
>>Pastor Thompson:
Amen. God bless you.
00:24:10.21\00:24:11.31
>>John: God bless you.
00:24:11.35\00:24:12.51
>>Pastor Thompson: Thank
you for taking the time to come.
00:24:12.55\00:24:13.48
>>John: Sure.
00:24:13.52\00:24:14.28
>>Pastor
Thompson: I appreciate it.
00:24:14.32\00:24:14.78
>>John: Thank you.
00:24:14.82\00:24:15.92
¤[soft music]¤
00:24:15.95\00:24:17.15
What we know is that life
is going to challenge you.
00:24:17.19\00:24:19.85
Most of the time, those
challenges, relatively small.
00:24:19.89\00:24:23.43
Sometimes big,
occasionally massive.
00:24:23.46\00:24:26.66
The question is,
how do you respond?
00:24:26.70\00:24:29.13
In this case, hate
would serve no purpose.
00:24:29.16\00:24:32.07
It's certainly not
going to bring anyone back.
00:24:32.10\00:24:34.87
A man has been sentenced to die.
00:24:34.90\00:24:36.64
His execution
won't raise the dead.
00:24:36.67\00:24:39.94
The living will still
have to go on through life
00:24:39.97\00:24:42.58
without people
that they love the most.
00:24:42.61\00:24:46.08
Regardless of the wrong,
00:24:46.11\00:24:47.72
irrespective of the issue
involved, forgiveness matters.
00:24:47.75\00:24:51.35
Forgiveness sets
the forgiver free.
00:24:51.39\00:24:53.19
Forgiveness is God's way.
00:24:53.22\00:24:55.49
Now, I understand; sometimes the
pain just seems way too great.
00:24:55.52\00:24:59.63
Sometimes the wrong
just seems way too wrong.
00:24:59.66\00:25:02.33
But forgiveness was given by God
so that you can be made whole.
00:25:02.36\00:25:07.64
Anthony Thompson shows us that
we don't have to go through life
00:25:07.67\00:25:10.31
hanging on to anger and hate.
00:25:10.34\00:25:13.04
We don't have to carry with
us the weight of unforgiveness.
00:25:13.07\00:25:17.65
So how's that
working out for you?
00:25:17.68\00:25:19.61
It seems that most everybody
has something to forgive.
00:25:19.65\00:25:24.25
Which might just
mean that most everybody
00:25:24.29\00:25:26.15
is hanging on to something
that they might ought to let go.
00:25:26.19\00:25:29.36
Most people are far less
whole than they ought to be
00:25:29.39\00:25:32.43
simply because they're
choosing not to forgive.
00:25:32.46\00:25:36.63
Think about the big picture.
00:25:36.67\00:25:38.40
As sinners, God has forgiven
us. God has forgiven us so much.
00:25:38.43\00:25:43.20
Jesus died for our sins,
and when we confess our sins,
00:25:43.24\00:25:47.01
the Bible says,
00:25:47.04\00:25:48.41
"He is faithful and
just to forgive us our sins."
00:25:48.44\00:25:52.01
Further, "to cleanse us
from all unrighteousness."
00:25:52.05\00:25:56.35
After what God has done for you,
00:25:56.38\00:25:59.82
can you extend that
same forgiveness to another?
00:25:59.85\00:26:03.16
And through exercising
the kind of forgiveness
00:26:03.19\00:26:06.23
that God has
exercised towards you,
00:26:06.26\00:26:09.23
you can experience the peace
00:26:09.26\00:26:11.27
that Anthony
Thompson experiences,
00:26:11.30\00:26:13.97
the peace that God wants
you to have now and forever.
00:26:14.00\00:26:19.67
>>John: Thank you for
remembering that It Is Written
00:26:20.51\00:26:22.41
exists because of the kindness
of people just like you.
00:26:22.44\00:26:25.88
To support this international
life-changing ministry,
00:26:25.91\00:26:29.02
please call us
now at 800-253-3000.
00:26:29.05\00:26:33.29
You can send your
tax-deductible gift
00:26:33.32\00:26:34.79
to the address on your screen,
00:26:34.82\00:26:36.16
or you can visit us
online at itiswritten.com.
00:26:36.19\00:26:40.16
Thank you for your prayers
and for your financial support.
00:26:40.20\00:26:42.90
Our number
again is 800-253-3000,
00:26:42.93\00:26:47.14
or you can visit us
online at itiswritten.com.
00:26:47.17\00:26:50.17
>>John Bradshaw: Let
me pray with you now.
00:26:51.17\00:26:52.91
Father in heaven, we
thank You in Jesus' name
00:26:52.94\00:26:54.81
that You are a God
of great forgiveness.
00:26:54.84\00:26:57.21
We thank You for the gift of
forgiveness that You give to us.
00:26:57.25\00:26:59.91
I ask that right now as someone
is wrestling with a choice
00:26:59.95\00:27:03.49
to forgive or otherwise,
impress that heart to forgive.
00:27:03.52\00:27:07.09
Show that person
the healthy way forward.
00:27:07.12\00:27:09.79
Friend, is that you?
00:27:09.82\00:27:10.86
Would you open your
heart up to God now and say,
00:27:10.89\00:27:12.49
"God, give me that
grace to forgive another,"
00:27:12.53\00:27:14.20
or "God, I choose to forgive"?
00:27:14.20\00:27:16.33
You can choose to forgive.
00:27:16.36\00:27:18.23
Don't consult your feelings.
00:27:18.27\00:27:20.37
Choose to forgive and
expect that God will take care
00:27:20.40\00:27:23.14
of the feelings in
the fullness of time.
00:27:23.17\00:27:25.71
Thank You, Lord,
that You forgive us,
00:27:25.74\00:27:27.84
that Your
forgiveness is full and free.
00:27:27.88\00:27:30.91
Give in our lives the
ability to forgive others.
00:27:30.95\00:27:35.78
We pray, we
thank You, we claim it,
00:27:35.82\00:27:38.19
and we believe, in Jesus' name.
00:27:38.22\00:27:41.66
Amen.
00:27:41.69\00:27:43.02
Thanks so much for joining me.
00:27:43.06\00:27:44.39
Looking forward to
seeing you again next time.
00:27:44.43\00:27:46.03
Until then, remember:
00:27:46.06\00:27:48.20
"It is written, 'Man
shall not live by bread alone,
00:27:48.23\00:27:51.63
but by every word that proceeds
from the mouth of God.'"
00:27:51.67\00:27:56.81
¤[theme music]¤
00:27:56.84\00:28:02.84