>>John Bradshaw:
This is It Is Written.
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I'm John Bradshaw.
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Thanks for joining me.
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Everybody wants it.
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I think the truth is
most everybody needs it.
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And when people get it,
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it seems that what
they want next is more.
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It seems as though we
can never be satisfied
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with the amount of
money that we have.
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And that might
just be a problem.
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We read in the Bible that God
is willing to bless His people,
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but sometimes it can
be that those blessings
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are allowed to become curses.
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Let me read to you from Matthew
chapter 19 where Jesus shared
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one of the most curious
verses in all of the Bible.
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Matthew 19 and
verse 24, He said,
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"And again I say to you,
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it is easier for a camel to
go through the eye of a needle
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than for a rich man to
enter the kingdom of God."
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Now, that's a fascinating verse.
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To talk with me about that and
other aspects of the subject,
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I'm glad to
welcome my special guest
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from Queensland,
Australia: Julian Archer.
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Julian, thanks for joining me.
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>>Julian Archer: Thank
you, John. Great to be here.
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>>John: Julian, as
an international speaker
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and as an author, you
speak a lot about money.
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And one of the things
that you've discovered
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in your studies and in
your own experience is this:
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It seems that as
people's prosperity increases,
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that person's
commitment to God can decrease.
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Let's talk about
that. Where would we begin?
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>>Julian: Yeah, it's a
bit like a teeter-totter,
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or a see-saw, isn't it?
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One goes up;
the other goes down.
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It doesn't have to.
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It'd be great if it
didn't, but it, it often does.
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>>John: So can
we talk about cases,
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chapter and
verse, empirical data?
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I, I recently read
an article produced
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by a Canadian news agency
that said as nations prosper,
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religion diminishes.
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So just how true is it?
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I think a lot of us
have met rich people who,
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who feel like they have no
needs and don't even need God.
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Of course, we're not
going to say that that applies
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to all wealthy people.
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>>Julian: Sure.
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>>John: But, but how real
is this? How does it happen?
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And eventually we'll
get around to talking about
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what a person can do about it.
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>>Julian: Yeah, look,
it's very real. It's very real.
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The, the data has been
coming out for many years.
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Uh, Credit Suisse,
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a very respected
financial services agency
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out of Switzerland,
has a lot of data on it.
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The Gallup poll, one of the
most respected research agencies
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in the world, uh, as
they study around the world,
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they find that
the richest nations--
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so, not necessarily the
biggest or, or the highest GDPs
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or whatever--but those
nations where the adults
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in those nations actually
have the highest private wealth,
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those nations are the ones
who are the least religious.
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>>John: So what
nations are they?
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>>Julian: We're
looking at, uh, Switzerland,
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uh, Australia, New Zealand,
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Denmark, Sweden,
Norway, the UK, even the US.
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They're the
nations that are showing
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this teeter-totter issue.
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And those nations,
interestingly enough,
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are primarily founded
on Christian principles.
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>>John: Yeah, historically
we'd refer to those--
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>>Julian: That's right.
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>>John: ...as
Christian nations--
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>>Julian: Yeah.
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>>John: ...whether that
label is accurate or not,
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but these are places where
Christianity has flourished.
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>>Julian: That's right.
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>>John: So in the past there
was a strong Christian ethic.
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Now there's a
strong secular ethic,
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a strong emphasis on wealth,
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and you're saying that the
data shows that these countries
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where adults are
earning the most,
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that's where people are
less or least committed to God.
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>>Julian: That's right.
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So, if you go to a
nation like my home nation,
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and Gallup poll comes
in with their survey--
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they're surveying 200 nations--
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they get to Australia and
they say--one of the questions:
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"Is religion an important
part of your daily life?"
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Okay, simple
question, yes or no:
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"Is religion an important
part of your daily life?"
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Two-thirds, 67
percent of Australians say,
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"No, religion is not
important in my daily life."
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You go across to somewhere
like Sweden or Norway--
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you're looking at over
80 percent of people saying,
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"No, religion's not
important in my daily life."
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And so it's a,
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it's a significant
teeter-totter situation.
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And those nations,
those top 10 richest nations,
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were all founded on Christian
laws, Christian principles;
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they used to be, as
you say, Christian nations.
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>>John: Are we calling
this correlation or causation?
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Is this, is this
just a coincidence?
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>>Julian: Yeah. Look,
according to the data, no.
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If you get the statisticians
on to the data, and they,
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they will say, you
know, we'll take it down
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to a certain coefficient
and all the rest of it--
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they say this is rock-solid.
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It's, this is a statistically
solid analysis that,
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as a nation's wealth increases,
it has a direct impact
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on the religiosity of
the people in that nation.
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>>John: So then, one would
see this as a red flag, I think.
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Before we go any further,
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are we saying that it's
wrong or bad to be wealthy?
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>>Julian: No, no, not at all.
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>>John: So wealth is okay?
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>>Julian: Yes.
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>>John: What if you're
filthy rich? Is that okay?
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>>Julian: It's okay.
There's no problem with that.
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>>John: All right.
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>>Julian: Even from a Christian,
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even from a
biblical point of view,
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there is
nothing wrong with that.
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>>John: For example?
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>>Julian: Uh,
Job, Abraham, you know,
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guys who had a lot.
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>>John: Solomon.
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>>Julian: Solomon.
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>>John: King David.
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>>Julian: Classic
example. Yeah, that's right.
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But we must remember,
though, that for Abraham,
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God said to him, He said,
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"I will bless you
to be a blessing."
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Okay? So these guys didn't,
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they didn't have masses
stored up for themselves;
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they had a lot of
money going through them,
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and God was using
them to bless other people.
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So there's, there
are some provisos.
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>>John: Okay, so
it's okay to be wealthy?
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>>Julian: Yes.
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>>John: But Jesus said,
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"It's easier for a camel to
go through the eye of a needle
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than for a rich
person to enter into heaven."
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Now, I've heard people say
that this is merely symbolic;
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Jesus was just making a point.
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What do you think?
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>>Julian: If He was
just making a point,
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it's a point that is
very solidly backed up today
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in the data. [laughs]
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So, so it was a
pretty good point.
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[laughs]
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So, uh, even--you
know, you go to Hinduism--
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you've got Mahatma Gandhi,
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and he says that once
financial stability is assured,
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spiritual
bankruptcy is also assured.
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Okay, so this isn't
just a Christian thing;
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this is, this is,
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this is human nature
that, as our affluence goes up,
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we tend to
become very self-reliant
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and think less of God or
relying on God or needing God.
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>>John: So why do
you think that is?
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>>Julian: I think the, the
blessings that God gives us--
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because He wants to,
He wants to bless us--
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uh, they are there
for us to, to share.
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If we put a dam, a wall on
the dam and stop the, the flow,
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or even
severely limit the flow--
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you know, still let some out--
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but, you know, I need to keep
building mine bigger and bigger.
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Uh, then that's where
it starts to mess with us.
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And what, what
happens, to illustrate it,
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is the inside of
my heart, for example,
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when, when I was going
through this, this situation,
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the inside of my
heart was being filled up
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with the
blessings-- material blessings.
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And I was so
busy maintaining them,
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insuring them,
trying to make them grow,
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trying to, trying to
ensure that nobody stole them,
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or whatever it was.
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They took so much
of my time and energy
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that I simply didn't have the
time and energy for God anymore.
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>>John: I think it's
worth pointing out here
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you've alluded to the fact
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that you've been a very
successful business person.
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Uh, and I'd like you
to take a moment to talk
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about the deleterious effect
that had on your spiritual walk,
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to the extent you
wrote a book called
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"Help! I've Been Blessed!"
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Which is interesting
because in Christian circles,
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again and again and
again people are saying,
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"Got to do everything we
can to get God's blessing,"
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and they're measuring
blessing by dollars and cents
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and possessions and cars
and houses and jet aircraft
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and so forth.
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So you've been through this.
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Walk us through some of this,
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to, to the place where
you had to write about this,
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calling the book
"Help! I've Been Blessed!"
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>>Julian: Yeah.
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Yeah, there is a lot
of material out there
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that says how to be blessed--
"God wants you to be rich"--
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you know, all
this sort of stuff.
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And I have no question
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the Bible says that God wants
to bless us--we're His children.
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>>John: But does
God want us to be rich?
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>>Julian: God doesn't mind
whether we're rich or otherwise.
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From, from Scripture,
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um, God has very poor
followers who love Him;
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God has very rich
followers who love Him.
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The challenge is--and
this is in my own experience--
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as I became more and
more focused and distracted
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on those blessings,
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then I had less and less time,
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and ultimately
less and less interest
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in spending time with God.
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Now, during that whole period,
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this was something
going on in my heart.
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No one knew; no
one could see this.
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I was still as religious
as anybody else at church,
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you know, supporting all
these different programs,
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speaking from the
front, all this sort of stuff.
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But in my heart--and this is,
this is where the battle was--
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in my heart I
knew that I was lost.
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I knew that I was not in a
saving relationship with Jesus,
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and I knew what the cause was.
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>>John: The cause was--put a
fine point on it. What was it?
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>>Julian: I could
say it was His blessings,
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but it wasn't.
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It was my
response to His blessings.
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>>John: Okay.
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>>Julian: And I--
God had blessed me,
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and I had got
distracted by those blessings,
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and I had to try
and sort that out,
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and that's where
the book came from.
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It wasn't meant to be a book.
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It was my own journaling
of everything I could find
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in Scripture
about my, my battle,
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this faith versus finance battle
that I was, that I was in.
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And then it ended
up becoming a book.
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But I had to work it out because
it was messing with my head.
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It was, it was
really messing with me.
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You know, Jesus says,
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"What shall it profit a
man if he gains the whole world
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and lose his soul?"
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Very few people will know
that you're in that situation.
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But in your heart, where
nobody else can see, you know,
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and you go, "You know what,
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yeah, I'm sort of
gaining the whole world here,
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and I know I'm losing my soul.
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I've got to do
something about this."
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>>John: So you think there
are many wealthy people today
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who are having this battle?
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>>Julian: You know,
when it was happening,
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I thought I was the only one.
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I, I seriously
thought I was the only one--
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because we don't discuss it.
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It's, it's a conversation
that is just under the table.
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Because we like
to, like the disciples,
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you know, when the
rich young ruler came along,
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and Jesus basically said,
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"Look, buddy, you're
not going to get into heaven
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unless you sort a
few of these things out."
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The disciple says,
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"Whoa, if he can't be
saved, who can be saved?"
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You know, because he was rich;
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he was
respected; he was blessed;
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he was a leader, you know,
all these different things.
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And they're like,
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"Well, if they're not
gonna get into heaven,
00:10:42.24\00:10:43.34
who can get into heaven?"
00:10:43.37\00:10:45.31
And so we just don't
discuss it because the fact is,
00:10:45.34\00:10:49.14
as I've learnt over the years
as I've traveled the world,
00:10:49.18\00:10:51.45
talking to people in a
whole lot of different places
00:10:51.48\00:10:53.15
and a whole lot of different
lounge rooms, I might say--
00:10:53.18\00:10:55.52
very wealthy lounge rooms--
00:10:55.55\00:10:56.62
uh, a lot of
people struggle with it.
00:10:56.65\00:10:59.72
They, they're
sitting there, wondering,
00:10:59.75\00:11:01.56
how can I be saved when I
have such a focus on wealth
00:11:01.59\00:11:04.96
that I'm not really
letting anybody see?
00:11:04.99\00:11:06.59
>>John: Isn't it
interesting that many, many,
00:11:06.63\00:11:08.40
many average people--
00:11:08.43\00:11:10.30
and I guess I mean
average financially people--
00:11:10.33\00:11:13.23
really believe that if
they only had a ton of money,
00:11:13.27\00:11:16.74
life would be great, and all
their problems would be gone?
00:11:16.77\00:11:20.04
You're gonna say,
"Not necessarily the case."
00:11:20.08\00:11:22.68
It sounds like you're saying.
"Be careful what you wish for."
00:11:22.71\00:11:25.78
>>Julian: Yeah.
00:11:25.81\00:11:27.02
Yeah, it was Oscar Wilde who--
the great Irish playwright--
00:11:27.05\00:11:30.02
who said,
00:11:30.05\00:11:30.95
"There's only two
great tragedies in life:
00:11:30.99\00:11:33.09
one of them is not
getting what you want,
00:11:33.12\00:11:36.02
and the other is
getting what you want."
00:11:36.06\00:11:38.16
And that was
where I didn't realize--
00:11:38.19\00:11:39.76
I thought that if
I got what I wanted,
00:11:39.79\00:11:41.36
everything would be sorted;
everything would be okay.
00:11:41.40\00:11:44.47
But then God gave
me everything I wanted,
00:11:44.50\00:11:46.10
and more and more,
and things weren't okay.
00:11:46.13\00:11:50.51
>>John: Studies,
repeated studies have shown
00:11:50.54\00:11:52.94
there's a certain
point of income, of earnings,
00:11:52.97\00:11:56.41
beyond which more money does
not increase your happiness.
00:11:56.44\00:12:01.82
It varies in the United
States from state to state,
00:12:01.85\00:12:04.39
I'm certain, as the
cost of living varies.
00:12:04.42\00:12:06.15
But it's not very high.
00:12:06.19\00:12:07.56
Washington,
D.C., about $100,000.
00:12:07.59\00:12:10.29
Most states in
the United States, 65.
00:12:10.33\00:12:12.83
You can have 66 or 66 million;
it won't make you any happier.
00:12:12.86\00:12:18.50
Do you see that as odd,
00:12:18.53\00:12:19.93
or can you
listen to that and go,
00:12:19.97\00:12:21.50
"Yep, I know what that means"?
00:12:21.54\00:12:22.47
>>Julian: Yeah, absolutely.
00:12:22.50\00:12:23.81
Uh, you know, we
were talking before
00:12:23.84\00:12:25.97
about the
wealthiest adults on the planet
00:12:26.01\00:12:27.61
and how Australians are
right up there in second place
00:12:27.64\00:12:29.68
after Switzerland.
00:12:29.71\00:12:32.08
So, basically as,
as individual adults--
00:12:32.11\00:12:34.35
so just, just our families--
00:12:34.38\00:12:36.22
we are basically wealthier
than most average adults,
00:12:36.25\00:12:39.22
most adults around the world.
00:12:39.25\00:12:40.72
We are also the
second-highest consumers
00:12:40.76\00:12:44.03
of antidepressant
medications on the planet.
00:12:44.06\00:12:47.30
So does money buy
happiness? Not at all.
00:12:47.30\00:12:49.76
You know, why, why would we be--
00:12:49.80\00:12:51.57
are we the
second-highest consumers
00:12:51.60\00:12:53.13
because we can afford the pills?
00:12:53.17\00:12:54.47
It's not just because
we can afford the pills;
00:12:54.50\00:12:57.07
it's because there's something--
00:12:57.11\00:12:58.41
we've crossed that $65,000
limit or that $100,000 limit,
00:12:58.44\00:13:02.11
thinking, "Now
I'm gonna be happy."
00:13:02.14\00:13:05.58
And we're not.
00:13:05.61\00:13:06.82
And we're going, "Oh,
I'm gonna have to medicate."
00:13:06.85\00:13:09.32
[Laughs] You know, as, as,
00:13:09.35\00:13:11.09
as strangely sad as
that sounds, that's reality.
00:13:11.12\00:13:14.42
And I've got nothing against
antidepressant medication.
00:13:14.46\00:13:16.42
I believe if somebody
needs it, they need it.
00:13:16.46\00:13:18.86
But it's just ironic
that the second-richest adults
00:13:18.89\00:13:21.40
on the planet are also
the second-highest consumers.
00:13:21.43\00:13:23.90
>>John: Now, I sense
that there's somebody
00:13:23.93\00:13:25.30
watching us
right now who's saying,
00:13:25.33\00:13:27.10
"Man, that's easy for you
to say. You've had it all.
00:13:27.14\00:13:29.94
You've had all you
wanted with excess,
00:13:29.97\00:13:32.01
but here I am struggling
away, barely making ends meet.
00:13:32.04\00:13:37.11
It's easy for you to say."
00:13:37.15\00:13:38.35
Well, it is easy to say, but
in a moment when we come back,
00:13:38.38\00:13:41.58
let's talk about why
it's easy to believe.
00:13:41.62\00:13:43.49
We'll be right back
with more in just a moment.
00:13:43.52\00:13:45.75
Don't go away.
00:13:45.79\00:13:46.99
¤[Music]¤
00:13:47.02\00:13:54.66
>>Announcer: When an Italian
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00:13:55.93\00:13:58.40
that he was going
on a spiritual retreat
00:13:58.43\00:14:00.80
but was later rescued
from a sinking cruise ship,
00:14:00.84\00:14:03.47
he learned an
important lesson: Truth matters.
00:14:03.51\00:14:06.11
And the truth
matters in the church.
00:14:06.14\00:14:08.88
But a whole lot of what
gets passed off as truth
00:14:08.91\00:14:10.91
in the church today isn't.
00:14:10.95\00:14:13.68
Don't miss "The Mouth of Truth"
00:14:13.72\00:14:15.28
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00:14:15.32\00:14:17.52
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00:14:20.99\00:14:22.92
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00:14:22.96\00:14:24.23
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00:14:24.26\00:14:26.36
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00:14:26.39\00:14:29.33
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00:14:29.96\00:14:33.80
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00:14:33.84\00:14:36.00
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00:14:36.04\00:14:38.61
But it's the will of Jesus--
00:14:38.64\00:14:40.78
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00:14:40.81\00:14:42.44
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Don't miss "The Mouth of Truth"
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00:14:51.02\00:14:53.92
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00:14:55.92\00:14:57.03
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>>John Bradshaw:
Thanks for joining me today
00:15:26.52\00:15:27.99
on It Is Written.
00:15:28.02\00:15:29.32
My guest is Julian Archer,
international speaker and author
00:15:29.36\00:15:33.53
on the subject of
money and personal finance.
00:15:33.56\00:15:36.20
It was Jesus who said
that it's easier for a camel
00:15:36.23\00:15:38.83
to get through
the eye of a needle
00:15:38.87\00:15:40.54
than for a rich man
to enter into heaven.
00:15:40.57\00:15:42.70
Clearly, having wealth
brings some challenges,
00:15:42.74\00:15:46.71
and wealth can be
the cause of challenges
00:15:46.74\00:15:49.14
to a person's spiritual life.
00:15:49.18\00:15:51.08
Now, Julian, as
we've discussed this,
00:15:51.11\00:15:52.78
I sense that somebody's saying,
00:15:52.81\00:15:54.52
"Well, man, that's
easy for you to say.
00:15:54.55\00:15:56.15
You've had it,
you've been through it,
00:15:56.18\00:15:57.52
and maybe you're in the
place where you can just choose
00:15:57.55\00:16:00.29
to turn your back
on chasing money."
00:16:00.32\00:16:02.86
Why is it that really it
can be difficult for a person
00:16:02.89\00:16:07.73
to maintain a
relationship with Jesus
00:16:07.76\00:16:09.63
when financial
blessings increase?
00:16:09.66\00:16:12.03
>>Julian Archer:
Yeah, look, I, I have, uh,
00:16:12.07\00:16:15.54
I encourage young people to go
out and do really well in life,
00:16:15.57\00:16:19.14
whether that be financially or
career-wise or whatever it is;
00:16:19.17\00:16:22.01
I encourage them to do that.
00:16:22.04\00:16:23.81
I did the same in my life.
00:16:23.85\00:16:26.51
However, the
challenge that I faced
00:16:26.55\00:16:29.35
was that I was
losing my spirituality;
00:16:29.38\00:16:31.35
I was losing my
relationship with Jesus.
00:16:31.39\00:16:33.15
The higher my wealth went,
00:16:33.19\00:16:34.36
it seemed the less and less
time I had to spend with Jesus.
00:16:34.39\00:16:36.96
And so I say to the
young people, look, go for it.
00:16:36.99\00:16:40.40
Put everything
you've got into it.
00:16:40.43\00:16:42.90
But hang in there with
Jesus right the way through
00:16:42.93\00:16:45.27
because you're,
otherwise you're gonna get
00:16:45.30\00:16:47.04
to the other end
and it's gonna be,
00:16:47.07\00:16:48.37
"Hey, look, I've
gained the whole world,
00:16:48.40\00:16:49.80
and I've got
nothing; I've lost my soul."
00:16:49.84\00:16:53.04
>>John: So this
emphasis that you see
00:16:53.07\00:16:54.41
in some Christian circles about
get more, get more, get more,
00:16:54.44\00:16:57.21
"You can have all you want,"
00:16:57.25\00:16:58.18
"God wants you to be
rich," and so forth--
00:16:58.21\00:17:00.35
uh, would you see--
00:17:00.38\00:17:02.35
let me just ask you
how you would see that.
00:17:02.38\00:17:04.52
Healthy, unhealthy,
somewhere in the middle?
00:17:04.55\00:17:07.32
>>Julian: Yeah...
00:17:07.36\00:17:10.46
Gut feeling, single
word, I would say unhealthy.
00:17:10.49\00:17:13.26
Uh, but I need to,
need to explain that.
00:17:13.29\00:17:16.80
Biblically, we--there certainly
are passages and stories
00:17:16.83\00:17:19.03
where Jesus says, and,
and God says, you know,
00:17:19.07\00:17:21.70
"Obey me and I will bless you."
00:17:21.74\00:17:22.97
Uh, God wants to bless us.
00:17:23.00\00:17:26.07
However, there's also
story after story after story
00:17:26.11\00:17:29.88
of individuals
and entire nations
00:17:29.91\00:17:32.38
who turned away from
God when they were blessed.
00:17:32.41\00:17:35.58
And if we are going
to buy in to a scenario
00:17:35.62\00:17:41.69
of "God wants me to be rich,"
00:17:41.72\00:17:44.83
then you've really got to
have in your chest pocket,
00:17:44.86\00:17:47.60
right near your
heart, a ticket that says,
00:17:47.66\00:17:50.50
"I'm not gonna
let go of You, Jesus,"
00:17:50.53\00:17:52.33
through that process.
00:17:52.37\00:17:53.74
And that's what
Jesus was talking about;
00:17:53.77\00:17:55.10
He was talking
about the camel...
00:17:55.14\00:17:57.81
having to go
through the eye of a needle
00:17:57.84\00:17:59.21
like a rich man
getting into heaven.
00:17:59.24\00:18:02.04
It's not easy.
00:18:02.08\00:18:03.88
It may sound easy.
00:18:03.91\00:18:04.75
You may think,
"Well, if I had money,
00:18:04.78\00:18:05.68
then I wouldn't
have any problems,
00:18:05.71\00:18:06.72
and that would be easy."
00:18:06.75\00:18:08.75
It, it may, may seem to be
easy, if you don't have God.
00:18:08.78\00:18:11.25
But if you want to hold
on to a saving relationship
00:18:11.29\00:18:13.66
with Jesus Christ during
those years, it's, it's--
00:18:13.69\00:18:17.63
I was gonna say it's hard work,
but that sounds legalistic.
00:18:17.66\00:18:19.86
But it's, it's a daily battle.
00:18:19.89\00:18:21.76
You know, Paul
says, "I die daily."
00:18:21.80\00:18:23.43
And if we go into
the, the Greek of that,
00:18:23.47\00:18:26.13
uh, the word for "I" in his,
where he says, "I die daily,"
00:18:26.17\00:18:29.97
is epsilon gamma omega,
00:18:30.01\00:18:32.07
E-G-O: Ego dies daily.
00:18:32.11\00:18:35.81
And when you're being
blessed, when you're saying,
00:18:35.84\00:18:37.81
"Yeah, God wants me to be rich,
00:18:37.85\00:18:38.78
and here I am--
look, I am being rich now,"
00:18:38.81\00:18:40.92
ego just rises up
because you get proud.
00:18:40.95\00:18:44.85
You become a Pharisee;
you become self-sufficient.
00:18:44.89\00:18:47.32
But your ego has to die daily.
00:18:47.36\00:18:49.32
And I, I, I can tell you,
00:18:49.36\00:18:50.89
killing your ego
daily is not easy.
00:18:50.93\00:18:52.53
It's a battle.
00:18:52.56\00:18:53.56
>>John: Let's
look at this passage,
00:18:53.60\00:18:54.96
the story where
Jesus addressed someone
00:18:55.00\00:18:56.90
who is doing
really well financially.
00:18:56.93\00:18:58.50
He came to Jesus.
00:18:58.53\00:18:59.40
I'm gonna read in
Matthew chapter 19.
00:18:59.43\00:19:01.20
It says, starting in verse 16,
00:19:01.24\00:19:03.41
"Now behold, one came and
said to Him, 'Good Teacher,
00:19:03.44\00:19:05.97
what good thing shall I do
that I may have eternal life?'"
00:19:06.01\00:19:08.91
And Jesus said,
"Why do you call me good?
00:19:08.94\00:19:10.75
No one is good but
One, [and] that is God.
00:19:10.78\00:19:12.55
But if [you'll]...enter into
life, keep [my] commandments."
00:19:12.58\00:19:15.15
The young man said
to Jesus, "Which ones?"
00:19:15.18\00:19:18.05
And so Jesus enumerated a
number of the commandments.
00:19:18.09\00:19:20.76
The young man then said,
00:19:20.79\00:19:22.19
"I've done that
ever since I was a kid.
00:19:22.22\00:19:24.53
What do I still lack?"
00:19:24.56\00:19:26.06
And Jesus said in
Matthew 19 and 21,
00:19:26.09\00:19:28.83
"If you want to be perfect, go,
00:19:28.86\00:19:31.27
sell what you have
and give to the poor,
00:19:31.30\00:19:34.27
and you will have
treasure in heaven;
00:19:34.30\00:19:36.20
and come, [and] follow me."
00:19:36.24\00:19:37.47
And what's really interesting,
what's tragic is verse 22 says,
00:19:37.51\00:19:41.41
"The young man
heard that saying,
00:19:41.44\00:19:43.85
[and] went away sorrowful,
00:19:43.88\00:19:46.31
[because] he had
great possessions."
00:19:46.35\00:19:49.15
He was a wealthy young fellow.
00:19:49.18\00:19:50.75
>>Julian: Hmm.
00:19:50.79\00:19:52.99
>>John: What was Jesus
really getting at here?
00:19:53.02\00:19:55.12
Did He really
mean "sell everything,"
00:19:55.16\00:19:57.09
or is this allegorical?
00:19:57.13\00:19:58.86
Why did he say that
to the rich young ruler?
00:19:58.89\00:20:01.46
>>Julian: Well, it's
interesting that Jesus
00:20:01.50\00:20:03.16
right up said five commandments.
00:20:03.20\00:20:05.67
He said don't do this;
don't do this; don't do this.
00:20:05.70\00:20:07.50
And the guys says, "Well,
I've done that since my youth."
00:20:07.54\00:20:08.97
And then Jesus says,
"One thing you lack."
00:20:09.00\00:20:11.11
Well, what was the one thing?
00:20:11.14\00:20:12.64
Well, it happened to
be the sixth commandment
00:20:12.67\00:20:14.41
that He hadn't
quoted out of the last ten.
00:20:14.44\00:20:16.75
>>John: "Thou shalt not covet."
00:20:16.78\00:20:18.05
>>Julian: Exactly.
"One thing you lack."
00:20:18.08\00:20:19.91
And, uh, He was
speaking the truth.
00:20:19.95\00:20:22.38
I mean, Jesus knows,
knows this guy's heart.
00:20:22.42\00:20:25.52
But then He comes
along and He says,
00:20:25.55\00:20:26.86
"Sell it all. Give it
away and come and follow me,
00:20:26.89\00:20:29.79
and you'll have
treasure in heaven."
00:20:29.82\00:20:31.33
You know, when I,
when I was in business,
00:20:31.36\00:20:34.10
and I was still very
actively involved in church,
00:20:34.13\00:20:38.57
this story was the worst
story in Scripture for me.
00:20:38.60\00:20:45.01
As, as a rich young ruler,
00:20:45.04\00:20:46.71
you know, as an
affluent young businessman,
00:20:46.74\00:20:49.81
I just hated it because I kept
thinking that God was telling me
00:20:49.84\00:20:54.42
that I've got to give
away everything in order
00:20:54.45\00:20:55.95
to be a disciple.
00:20:55.98\00:20:57.32
And at first reading, you could
say, "Yeah, well, it does."
00:20:57.35\00:21:02.79
I then said, "No,
no, it's just for him.
00:21:02.82\00:21:06.59
One guy, one point in time."
00:21:06.63\00:21:07.86
And it was like, whew,
that was close, you know?
00:21:07.93\00:21:10.10
I nearly had to sell everything.
00:21:10.13\00:21:11.60
And then I went
across to Luke 12:33,
00:21:11.63\00:21:13.97
and here's
Jesus saying it again.
00:21:14.00\00:21:15.47
He's saying if, you know,
unless you sell everything,
00:21:15.50\00:21:17.81
"You can't be my disciple,"
00:21:17.84\00:21:18.81
and this time He's
talking to the disciples,
00:21:18.84\00:21:20.88
the twelve disciples.
00:21:20.91\00:21:22.28
Two chapters later, Luke
14:33, Jesus is at it again.
00:21:22.31\00:21:26.11
But this time He's talking to
an entire multitude and He says,
00:21:26.15\00:21:28.38
"You've got to sell
everything you've got
00:21:28.42\00:21:29.58
to come and follow me."
00:21:29.62\00:21:31.55
[exhales loudly]
00:21:31.59\00:21:32.79
And I'm like, "Yeah, this
is, nah, this is really heavy."
00:21:32.82\00:21:36.93
So, I got in and I
studied the Greek on it,
00:21:36.96\00:21:39.69
at that, where He was
talking to the rich young ruler.
00:21:39.73\00:21:42.90
And I found that where He says,
00:21:42.93\00:21:45.83
"Sell all that you own
and come and follow me,"
00:21:45.87\00:21:48.90
can also be translated,
00:21:48.94\00:21:50.84
"Sell all that owns you
and come and follow me."
00:21:50.87\00:21:56.04
And I believe that's
what Jesus was saying.
00:21:56.08\00:21:57.68
And we know--
00:21:57.71\00:21:58.88
I, you know, I knew in my
heart the things that owned me.
00:21:58.91\00:22:03.55
And I think what
Jesus was saying was,
00:22:03.59\00:22:06.86
"Take
everything out of your life
00:22:06.89\00:22:08.76
that is getting between
you and me, that is getting--
00:22:08.79\00:22:13.16
that is distracting you
00:22:13.19\00:22:14.30
from this eternal
saving relationship.
00:22:14.36\00:22:17.90
Whatever owns you,
00:22:17.93\00:22:18.87
get rid of that and
then come and follow me."
00:22:18.90\00:22:20.90
>>John: This is
gonna, this is gonna differ
00:22:20.94\00:22:22.14
from person to
person, obviously.
00:22:22.17\00:22:23.57
>>Julian: Exactly.
And that's the thing.
00:22:23.61\00:22:24.91
Isn't that the
beautiful thing about salvation?
00:22:24.94\00:22:26.24
Salvation--that relationship
with Jesus is different
00:22:26.27\00:22:28.48
for every person.
00:22:28.51\00:22:30.68
I don't believe Jesus
is telling every Christian
00:22:30.71\00:22:32.31
to sell everything so
that we can follow Him.
00:22:32.35\00:22:34.95
It, it would just be a
whole crazy different religion
00:22:34.98\00:22:38.82
that we're involved in.
00:22:38.85\00:22:40.46
But I do believe He's
telling us to get everything
00:22:40.49\00:22:42.66
out of our lives that's
getting between us and Him.
00:22:42.69\00:22:44.99
>>John: So the
fact of the matter is
00:22:45.03\00:22:46.33
the guy who has the Lamborghini
parked in his garage,
00:22:46.36\00:22:48.90
that might be just
perfectly fine for one guy,
00:22:48.93\00:22:51.73
destructive for another.
00:22:51.77\00:22:53.27
>>Julian: Absolutely.
00:22:53.30\00:22:54.47
>>John: The person who's
got the magnificent holiday home
00:22:54.50\00:22:55.90
wherever he has
it-- or the homes--
00:22:55.94\00:22:57.87
or he or she, wherever--
00:22:57.91\00:22:59.77
that might be
okay for one person.
00:22:59.81\00:23:01.81
And we mustn't
judge people, right?
00:23:01.84\00:23:03.38
Because somebody may
have an expensive car
00:23:03.41\00:23:04.88
that ultimately
is an investment,
00:23:04.91\00:23:06.31
or properties that they're gonna
liquidate and give to the Lord.
00:23:06.35\00:23:08.62
It's not for us
to judge anybody.
00:23:08.65\00:23:10.79
So it differs
from person to person.
00:23:10.82\00:23:13.76
Couldn't that be just
giving a person an escape hatch
00:23:13.79\00:23:16.06
where that person now says,
00:23:16.09\00:23:17.29
"I heard what Julian said,
00:23:17.33\00:23:18.59
but, you know, my fleet
of fancy cars doesn't own me.
00:23:18.63\00:23:21.33
Everything's okay."
00:23:21.36\00:23:22.53
>>Julian: Yeah.
00:23:22.56\00:23:23.47
>>John: Could be an
escape hatch, right?
00:23:23.50\00:23:24.53
>>Julian: It could be.
00:23:24.57\00:23:25.73
The--and it is individual,
person to person, very true--
00:23:25.77\00:23:28.80
but what is not
individual, person to person,
00:23:28.84\00:23:31.31
is when Jesus says
that it's easier for a camel
00:23:31.34\00:23:34.58
to go through
the eye of a needle
00:23:34.61\00:23:35.54
than for a rich
person to get into heaven.
00:23:35.58\00:23:37.31
So, the person
might have the Lamborghini
00:23:37.35\00:23:40.55
and all the homes
and all the rest of it.
00:23:40.58\00:23:41.82
If they do, it will be
extremely difficult for them
00:23:41.85\00:23:45.32
to get into heaven.
00:23:45.35\00:23:46.52
Jesus said that;
I'm not saying that.
00:23:46.55\00:23:48.16
That's, that's what Jesus said.
00:23:48.19\00:23:49.16
He said that's the fact,
00:23:49.19\00:23:51.43
and then He had
period at the end of it.
00:23:51.46\00:23:52.79
He didn't say,
"But if..." or anything.
00:23:52.83\00:23:54.73
He just said, hey,
look, if, if you're rich,
00:23:54.76\00:23:57.13
if, you know, even if God's
blessed you with your riches,
00:23:57.17\00:24:00.77
it's gonna be really difficult
for you to get into heaven.
00:24:00.80\00:24:02.44
Because riches have this
little thing that they do
00:24:02.47\00:24:04.51
on your heart, and you
tend to get distracted by them,
00:24:04.54\00:24:07.28
and you, you lose
that saving relationship.
00:24:07.31\00:24:09.64
>>John: Two questions--
we don't have a lot of time.
00:24:09.68\00:24:11.71
Two questions.
00:24:11.75\00:24:12.68
Uh, let's make this
as practical as we can.
00:24:12.71\00:24:14.85
Somebody's wealthy-- and
wealth varies, you know--
00:24:14.88\00:24:18.52
somebody's doing well,
00:24:18.55\00:24:19.62
and they know that their
stuff's starting to own them
00:24:19.65\00:24:22.16
and that they're struggling in
their relationship with Jesus;
00:24:22.19\00:24:24.26
focus is in the wrong place.
00:24:24.29\00:24:25.73
What's your advice what to do?
00:24:25.76\00:24:27.76
>>Julian: Uh,
work out some way of--
00:24:27.76\00:24:32.33
and it will depend on what,
on what situation they're in--
00:24:32.37\00:24:34.27
if they're owning a business,
00:24:34.30\00:24:35.30
then they may
have an opportunity
00:24:35.34\00:24:36.57
to give half of
the business to God--
00:24:36.60\00:24:39.57
or 90 percent, 95, 99.
00:24:39.61\00:24:42.24
I've seen people give 100
percent of the business to God
00:24:42.28\00:24:44.21
and just be paid
a wage out of it.
00:24:44.25\00:24:45.55
So there, there are
things that you can do along,
00:24:45.58\00:24:47.72
along those lines that is
sort of the practical accounting
00:24:47.75\00:24:50.85
nuts-and-bolts sides of things.
00:24:50.89\00:24:52.79
Uh, but ultimately,
it's get down on your knees.
00:24:52.82\00:24:56.93
It's get down on your
knees more and more and more.
00:24:56.96\00:25:00.06
That's, that's the solution
to trying to sort this out.
00:25:00.10\00:25:04.70
Because ultimately, the
riches are somewhat irrelevant.
00:25:04.73\00:25:08.60
You can, as we've
already discussed,
00:25:08.64\00:25:09.97
you can be
affluent and still have
00:25:10.01\00:25:12.14
a really strong daily
relationship with Christ,
00:25:12.17\00:25:14.78
but they do tend
to get in the way,
00:25:14.81\00:25:17.51
so we've got to get
back to that relationship,
00:25:17.55\00:25:19.41
that "first love,"
as Jesus called it.
00:25:19.45\00:25:21.58
>>John: Second question for
you: Why does God give wealth?
00:25:21.62\00:25:25.52
What's the purpose?
00:25:25.55\00:25:26.52
Just to bless us
for our faithfulness,
00:25:26.55\00:25:28.12
or is there a greater purpose?
00:25:28.16\00:25:29.46
>>Julian: Yeah. He loves us,
00:25:29.49\00:25:31.36
and He wants to
bless others through us,
00:25:31.39\00:25:34.36
and at the same
time we are blessed.
00:25:34.40\00:25:35.70
"It's more blessed to
give than to receive."
00:25:35.73\00:25:37.27
So He's giving us a privilege,
an opportunity to feel
00:25:37.30\00:25:40.04
those blessings of
giving to others in need.
00:25:40.07\00:25:42.17
>>John: Some people don't want
to give away what they've got.
00:25:42.20\00:25:44.07
What would you say to them?
00:25:44.11\00:25:46.11
>>Julian: Go down
on your knees. [laughs]
00:25:46.14\00:25:48.78
It's really, yeah,
it's really, it's God's.
00:25:48.81\00:25:52.01
It's God's, and He
wants you to give it.
00:25:52.05\00:25:53.95
And you will be so
blessed when you do.
00:25:53.98\00:25:56.92
>>John: So wealth is okay?
00:25:56.95\00:25:59.52
>>Julian: Yes.
00:25:59.55\00:26:00.26
>>John: Being rich is okay?
00:26:00.29\00:26:01.39
>>Julian: Mm-hmm.
00:26:01.42\00:26:02.59
>>John: You can be a successful
Christian and be wealthy?
00:26:02.62\00:26:04.96
>>Julian: Yes.
00:26:04.99\00:26:05.79
>>John: But at
the end of the day,
00:26:05.83\00:26:06.96
we have to remember
it all belongs to...?
00:26:07.00\00:26:09.03
>>Julian: God.
00:26:09.06\00:26:09.73
>>John: It all belongs to God.
00:26:09.76\00:26:11.50
And if we keep that in mind,
then we might see some camels
00:26:11.53\00:26:15.30
squeezing their way
through the eye of a needle.
00:26:15.34\00:26:18.14
¤[Music]¤
00:26:18.17\00:26:25.35
>>Announcer: The
pursuit of wealth
00:26:26.82\00:26:28.75
has been the
ruin of many people.
00:26:28.78\00:26:30.82
God promises to bless
His people financially.
00:26:30.85\00:26:33.29
But often, God's
blessings can turn into a curse.
00:26:33.32\00:26:36.19
Get your free copy
of "God Will Provide"
00:26:36.22\00:26:38.86
and learn the recipe
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00:26:38.89\00:26:41.93
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00:26:41.96\00:26:44.83
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00:26:44.87\00:26:47.60
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00:26:47.64\00:26:49.44
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00:26:49.47\00:26:52.87
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00:26:52.91\00:26:56.34
>>John Bradshaw:
Julian, thank you.
00:26:57.51\00:26:58.78
It's really been a
blessing. Thanks for joining me.
00:26:58.81\00:27:00.55
>>Julian Archer: Thank
you, it's been great to be here.
00:27:00.58\00:27:02.08
>>John: Let's pray together now.
00:27:02.12\00:27:03.95
Our Father in heaven,
00:27:03.99\00:27:04.89
we are grateful for
Your many blessings.
00:27:04.92\00:27:06.59
They come in so
many different ways.
00:27:06.62\00:27:08.92
Frequently, You
bless us financially,
00:27:08.96\00:27:12.16
but we see the danger
of allowing our blessings
00:27:12.19\00:27:14.36
to be anything but a blessing.
00:27:14.40\00:27:16.53
So grant that we
will keep things in focus,
00:27:16.56\00:27:18.63
that however we do
financially, materially,
00:27:18.67\00:27:21.20
we will remember that
everything belongs to You,
00:27:21.24\00:27:23.81
that we are
Yours, and Jesus is ours.
00:27:23.84\00:27:27.11
Grant us the
opportunity and the desire
00:27:27.14\00:27:30.01
to allow our blessings
to be a blessing to others.
00:27:30.05\00:27:33.48
Work through us,
both to will and to do,
00:27:33.52\00:27:36.12
for Your good pleasure.
00:27:36.15\00:27:37.72
We thank You, and
we pray in Jesus' name.
00:27:37.75\00:27:40.86
Amen.
00:27:40.89\00:27:41.92
Thanks so much
for joining us today.
00:27:41.96\00:27:43.69
I'm looking forward to
seeing you again next time.
00:27:43.73\00:27:45.93
Until then, remember:
00:27:45.96\00:27:47.40
"It is written, 'Man
shall not live by bread alone,
00:27:47.40\00:27:51.53
but by every word that proceeds
from the mouth of God.'"
00:27:51.57\00:27:56.94
¤[Theme music]¤
00:27:56.97\00:28:07.08
¤[Theme music]¤
00:28:07.08\00:28:16.36